Certain classes becoming unnecessary?

[Reidar]

As more people level up to 60, I'm seeing more and more videos of speed runs of things like Demons Above S-Rank done in 20 minutes. Everyone is either a Fortetecher, some sort of gunner, or a Protranser. The key to success, apparently, is status damage through traps, techniques, or bullets. Where does that leave Fortefighters, and people who don't specialize in anything, like Wartechers? It looks I'm doing a lot of damage by hitting for 500 with my axe's PA, but that's miniscule compared to somebody's virus trap or 21% burn bullet taking 1,000+ off the enemy for every tick caused by the status effect (and that's in addition to them attacking it), or a force hitting for 1,000+ with every quick Foie spell. I want to stick with Fortefighter, but I also want to be efficient and good at the game.

Your thoughts?

[Taris]

It leaves them in the "I play this game for fun" category.

If I was playing this game for the sake of speed-running thru levels over and over again, well...I'd probably NOT be playing this game anymore, and switch over to Gears of War or Viva Pinata or something. Because being expected to play a game in a way that's "all business" isn't very fun at all.

Oh, and if you ever run into me on Final Fantasy 11, never mention "let's grind levels at the dunes/jungle/whatever" to me. I'll bite someone's fool head off for that.

[Pure-chan]

On 2007-01-03 13:57, Reidar wrote:
As more people level up to 60, I'm seeing more and more videos of speed runs of things like Demons Above S-Rank done in 20 minutes. Everyone is either a Fortetecher, some sort of gunner, or a Protranser. The key to success, apparently, is status damage through traps, techniques, or bullets. Where does that leave Fortefighters, and people who don't specialize in anything, like Wartechers? It looks I'm doing a lot of damage by hitting for 500 with my axe's PA, but that's miniscule compared to somebody's virus trap or 21% burn bullet taking 1,000+ off the enemy for every tick caused by the status effect (and that's in addition to them attacking it), or a force hitting for 1,000+ with every quick Foie spell. I want to stick with Fortefighter, but I also want to be efficient and good at the game.

Your thoughts?



Two words: Burn Immune. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[EJ]

The only reason I do and other do speed runs is because they are either on lvl5 with that 1400mp to lvl6 or are doing rare hunting. I perfer speed runs in lab s since they can be done in 15min or less and I only do speed runs because I'm on job 5 with 1400mp to lvl 6 and after that I will take my time again ;3

[RS]

Blasphemy.Other classes unnecessary your kidding right? I'm a fortefighter and i specialize in killing mobs!

[McLaughlin]

Where does that leave the ________gunners when they come to the Boss? That's when you bring out the heavy hitters (Fortefighters) to do more than 0 damage a tick.

Wartechers can buff themselves. That's all they need. O_o

[Wheatpenny]

On 2007-01-03 13:57, Reidar wrote:
As more people level up to 60, I'm seeing more and more videos of speed runs of things like Demons Above S-Rank done in 20 minutes. Everyone is either a Fortetecher, some sort of gunner, or a Protranser. The key to success, apparently, is status damage through traps, techniques, or bullets. Where does that leave Fortefighters, and people who don't specialize in anything, like Wartechers? It looks I'm doing a lot of damage by hitting for 500 with my axe's PA, but that's miniscule compared to somebody's virus trap or 21% burn bullet taking 1,000+ off the enemy for every tick caused by the status effect (and that's in addition to them attacking it), or a force hitting for 1,000+ with every quick Foie spell. I want to stick with Fortefighter, but I also want to be efficient and good at the game.

Your thoughts?


I am a fortefighter and I do massive damnage, I have no Idea what you are doing dude.

And Protranser..cut them guys some slack they have it rough enough as is. They have every right to blast things to happy hell with their traps.






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Wheatpenny on 2007-01-03 14:34 ]</font>

[HUnewearl_Meira]

I submit that without Fortefighters, several groups of party tactics would be gimped. Remember: Some mobs are more vulnerable to melee than to techs or ranged.

[JAFO22000]

Fortefighters are very effective still. While you may not be doing the largest amount of damage at all times, you still do at least a decent amount of damage to all creatures. Plus, with your high HP and DFP, you can take the hits for those Fortetechers and Fortegunners so they can just keep blasting away.

[Garnet_Moon]

Demon From Above S In 16 Minutes (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8785292689269014089&q=Demons+from+Above+S)

Cherry N 60/10 Fortecher
EMM-386 C 60/10 Fighunner
piUpiU C 60/8 Fortegunner
Endbringer C 60/10 Fortegunner
Nei N 60/10 Fortegunner
Sumomo N 60/1 Guntecher

Bold are gunners.

LOL My Caseal will be a fG.

[foamcup]

I play for fun, or what little fun I can still find in this progressively more and more boring game, but that's a discussion for another time. This morning, I found myself in a group that wanted to speed run Lab Recovery, so they kept restarting if bugs appeared in the first room. I questioned how it could be saving time if we had to spend more time restarting over and over, but they were so convinced that they were saving time that I just shut up and played. I got the last few points I needed to level my class then got out of there. I saw a Fortetecher in the party hitting Jarbas with his Foie and wondered how hitting fire monsters with fire techs was saving time, but whatever.

Ugh, getting off topic. Anyway. Let people do their speed runs, and you go do your thing. And let's all pray that Square makes a new Crystal Chronicles for the Wii. With online play. Seriously, that game was pretty damn sweet.

[CyarVictor]

Same, I'm always a priority to get into the group I chill with. I'm the only all purpose fortefighter equipt with axes9for crowd control), everyone else is a figunner, forteranger, wartecher, or fortetecher. Any class can get the job done. it actually comes down to how well your party is.

[PsyX]

I play for fun...when PvP actually gets announced I'll be more bothered about "uber builds" and such.

As of right now, I love spears and beating the crap out of things with large metal objects. So I'm going fortefighter.

How well I will do in PvP with this character I don't care. =]

[Randomness]

Well, for the Onma bit... For both Onma and Dimma, I think rangers are a must for effectiveness, because you need to lay into those wings. Once hes on the ground, melee people move in to, well, melee, while everyone else KEEPS nailing the wings.

As for other stuff... Fortechers has horrible defense and horrible HP. Without someone else around (or really good armor), they're toast. Admittedly, gunners can pick up the slack there, but hunter-types will always be the best at pure damage output. And most likely, crowd control, though I wish they'd hit all the enemies in one direction.

But then, I play a ranger and a fortecher, what do I know?

[Gojin]

if a class was unncessary then why would it be available? Im going to continue playing Wartecher cause soon I'll be able to solo and not have to worry about playing with idiots who cant buy scapedolls, I should just play offline mode but I dont want to go through story mode cause Ethan is lame.

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-01-03 14:20, foamcup wrote:
...I saw a Fortetecher in the party hitting Jarbas with his Foie and wondered how hitting fire monsters with fire techs was saving time, but whatever....



1. Jarbas are resistant to technics. Anything tech you hit them with does little to no damage.

2. If you can get them to burn, they burn good! But I usually leave the SE's to the Fortegunners/Figunners/Guntechers...

[Ubersoldat]

Its probably faster to use mostly gunner classes on Demons S because of all the Tengohs. I belive they are classified as flying, so ranged weapons get +25% dmg, and they're high hp and high dfp makes burn very usefull. Oh, and the boss flies too.

No, the sky isn't falling.

[Reiichi]

Demons Above S is more of a ranged map than a melee one.

Considering you'll have 20 some odd tengohgs to go through each time which happen to be melee resistant, the only way to effectively go through them is with a pack of trappers and gunners.

Maybe if it was a more melee oriented map. Lolz gb2deragan.

Perhaps when more S weapons come out, the advantage held by fortefighters in certain weapons will become more evident. Until then, figunner > fortefighter.

[icewyrm]

An awful lot of enemies seem to be anti-melee. They're resistant to melee attacks, have alot of dodging/blocking animations/high evasion, and may have large AoE knockbacks or short range high speed damage skills. Obviously there are also enemies that are hard for rangers to hit/damage (SEs aside, although they are hardly the end all for damage), but in their favour they generally don't have to get up close and personal to attempt it. The other problem for fortefighters is that they have no decent long range weapon whatsoever, leaving them rather useless for taking down flying bosses (doh, he took off http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif now I can't do anything but run up close and go first person with a pistol).

It also seems a bit silly that all of the current hunter PAs (and from what I've seen all the future ones to be added) all have knockback effects on their 21+ 3rd combo. For speed runs, you usually have to abandon the 3rd part of every combo, and seeing as damage is usually increased for each combo, it's kind of a bummer. Really, it makes the third parts of the combo pretty useless. In the situations where you need knockback, you can usually just switch to a one hand weapon like saber or dagger to clear yourself a path. So it really makes me wonder, the bit of added damage aside, is there really much point to having PA skills higher than 20? And seeing as this is the main appeal of the fortefighter, is the fortefighter a useful class choice?

I've had plenty of fun playing my fortefighter, and I don't really want to change to another class (Mainly because getting your job type back up is annoying), but if it ever becomes too hard to find high level parties I might have to. Wartecher has some appealing versatility and ranged weapons for bosses etc. For speed runs though, I'm not sure how well wartecher goes down with a group, not having played one so far.

Still, it's no big deal if you ever have to change class, asides from getting new equipment and levelling PAs. So changing class isn't all that intimidating should it be necessary :/

[Koe]

On 2007-01-03 14:01, Taris wrote:
It leaves them in the "I play this game for fun" category.

If I was playing this game for the sake of speed-running thru levels over and over again, well...I'd probably NOT be playing this game anymore, and switch over to Gears of War or Viva Pinata or something. Because being expected to play a game in a way that's "all business" isn't very fun at all.

Oh, and if you ever run into me on Final Fantasy 11, never mention "let's grind levels at the dunes/jungle/whatever" to me. I'll bite someone's fool head off for that.

[Hildigam]

A good pt needs a few good hunters personally.... I am a fortegunner and I can't imagine an all ranger Pt.

I actually did one in relics A right after the patch.... took us about 45 minutes w/6 cast rangers, three of which had all 8* equipment and were like 55+

As a fortegunner, i <3 you hunters

[KRKcl17]

Well, that is a good thing. Fortefighters will eventually be tanks, being able to deal mass amounts of damage while at the same time taking very little of it.
When class levels increase as well as the ranks and difficulty on missions, the need for certain classes will become more apparent, and I think everyone will appreciate every class then. ^.^

[Reidar]

When I say "unnecessary", I don't mean completely worthless to the extent that it shouldn't be available, I mean appearing obsolete in terms of efficiency in comparison to others.

That is a good point, KRK. The more content arrives and level cap increases, the more evident everybody's specialty will be.

Thanks for the responses so far.

[PALRAPPYS]

On 2007-01-03 14:20, foamcup wrote:
I play for fun, or what little fun I can still find in this progressively more and more boring game, but that's a discussion for another time. This morning, I found myself in a group that wanted to speed run Lab Recovery, so they kept restarting if bugs appeared in the first room. I questioned how it could be saving time if we had to spend more time restarting over and over, but they were so convinced that they were saving time that I just shut up and played. I got the last few points I needed to level my class then got out of there. I saw a Fortetecher in the party hitting Jarbas with his Foie and wondered how hitting fire monsters with fire techs was saving time, but whatever.

Ugh, getting off topic. Anyway. Let people do their speed runs, and you go do your thing. And let's all pray that Square makes a new Crystal Chronicles for the Wii. With online play. Seriously, that game was pretty damn sweet.



It is going to be Online... but expect it MMORPG/ MORPG? No, it's not gonna be, well, possibly, but you know how Nintendo is...

[Gojin]

On 2007-01-03 15:41, PALRAPPYS wrote:

On 2007-01-03 14:20, foamcup wrote:
I play for fun, or what little fun I can still find in this progressively more and more boring game, but that's a discussion for another time. This morning, I found myself in a group that wanted to speed run Lab Recovery, so they kept restarting if bugs appeared in the first room. I questioned how it could be saving time if we had to spend more time restarting over and over, but they were so convinced that they were saving time that I just shut up and played. I got the last few points I needed to level my class then got out of there. I saw a Fortetecher in the party hitting Jarbas with his Foie and wondered how hitting fire monsters with fire techs was saving time, but whatever.

Ugh, getting off topic. Anyway. Let people do their speed runs, and you go do your thing. And let's all pray that Square makes a new Crystal Chronicles for the Wii. With online play. Seriously, that game was pretty damn sweet.



It is going to be Online... but expect it MMORPG/ MORPG? No, it's not gonna be, well, possibly, but you know how Nintendo is...



there making a crystal chronicles for DS its supposed to be good

[Sychosis]

When it comes to speed runs there will always be an optimal party configuration for certain missions. They will most likely consist of classes that excel in some given field. Forte classes most notably. Just take solace in the fact that the remaining 99% of players are only worried about finishing the mission in less than 10 hours.

It's PSO challenge mode speed runs all over again. No biggie.

[SolomonGrundy]

I'm going to agree with you, and here's why.

Rangers are rewarded for getting bullets to 21+ with more bullets, or higher Status Effect(s), and in most cases, higher elemental alignment.

High ATA > High ATP (if you can't hit, you ATP is meaningless).

21+ Skills are suspect. Creatures won't sit still for a compbo that lasts that long, and even if they did, some of the knock back effects are unhelpful

Rangers get access to traps (FTW!)


ForteGunners, specifically have it very nice. Level 20 skills (spears), is all you really need if your ATA is high enough, and theirs is. Trap use, and level 30 bullets round out thier considerable skill set.

I'd say gunteckers are a next, followed by ProTransers. yes, they start off weak as babes, and never really get great ATP, but level the 30 Skills AND level 30 bullets, and high performance traps is tough combo to beat.

Now if only there was a class with level 10 techs, level 20 bullets, and level 20 Skills. *sigh*

[Hotashi]

You are a dickhead, Fortegunners have up to LV10 skills.

[Randomness]

On 2007-01-03 15:47, Gojin wrote:

On 2007-01-03 15:41, PALRAPPYS wrote:

On 2007-01-03 14:20, foamcup wrote:
I play for fun, or what little fun I can still find in this progressively more and more boring game, but that's a discussion for another time. This morning, I found myself in a group that wanted to speed run Lab Recovery, so they kept restarting if bugs appeared in the first room. I questioned how it could be saving time if we had to spend more time restarting over and over, but they were so convinced that they were saving time that I just shut up and played. I got the last few points I needed to level my class then got out of there. I saw a Fortetecher in the party hitting Jarbas with his Foie and wondered how hitting fire monsters with fire techs was saving time, but whatever.

Ugh, getting off topic. Anyway. Let people do their speed runs, and you go do your thing. And let's all pray that Square makes a new Crystal Chronicles for the Wii. With online play. Seriously, that game was pretty damn sweet.



It is going to be Online... but expect it MMORPG/ MORPG? No, it's not gonna be, well, possibly, but you know how Nintendo is...



there making a crystal chronicles for DS its supposed to be good



There is a Wii one slated for 2007 too.

[Ryoki]

I don't know what you guys are talking about with the PA's. Even though I am a Figunner (BTW: the average Fighgunner population pisses me off as much as anyone else with their stupid elitism...), I wish to back up the effectiveness of the Skills...

Rising Strike: First attack knocks enemies up in the air, and knocks down large ones. Second attack sends them flying, or knocks down large enemies.

Rising Crush: First attack sends enemies in the air, second attack brings up more enemies and sends already airborne ones higher.

Spiral Dance: First attack knocks enemies down, and the second flashy attack knocks them away. Third attack clears out remaining enemies.

[Garnet_Moon]

I don't know about the other bullets but dualies go from 12% to 24% at lv21.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-01-03 16:33, Hotashi wrote:
You are a dickhead, Fortegunners have up to LV10 skills.



A) No need to be nasty.
B) Wow, that...is unfortunate...I thought that with Gunteckers getting 10 skills and 10 techs, that Forte gunners would get 20 skills.
C) see A)

[Neith]

I like to think im some use as a Fortefighter, especially in terms of crowd control. I usually stop 80% or more of Deljabans throwing Megid, and most Olgohmons dont stay standing long enough to get more than a few casts of Barta.

When it all gets harsh, being a Beast Ff, I can tank a lot of damage, as well as deal a good amount back (350-ish with Axe PA, and it's only a low level).

I can't confirm this myself, but I've heard that Bruce's Dungeon will be a good place to show how handy a Fortefighter can be.

[PJ]

Wow, this topic surprised me. I thought it'd be saying how unnecessary Fortegunners would be.

Man, am I surprised.

Suffice it to say, I'm not worried.

[Danyl]

Apparently you have never partied with any good fortfighters? When you see dudes with 25%+ weapons of proper element their damage is unmatchable. During Onma S this past weekend, a friend with his ice and fire spears, hit for 650avg dmg and 1100 on crits, lvl 60 fF 8. Damage like that makes a grown man cry.
While the fire effect from traps/rifles/bows on large monsters is well known, its barely a saving grace. Melee is clearly the majority leader when it comes to the damage tables. Every class has its role in a party. If you are in a party without a melee, a gunner, and a healer, you aren't going to be as effective.

[HC82]

Well, you can't base ONE stage on the overall class performance of PSU on a whole. When it comes to enemies that are numerous in number but have lower HP, status damage will play less of a role and mass AE damage will. In such instances, a Hunter will shine more then a gunner.

It's just that Demons Above S is currently the longest stage to complete that yields great rewards. Thus it is measured as being "the quest to master."

[Golto]

I agree it depends on the stage. You can't burn most robots can you with rifle shots? With the dark bullet rifles will finally be able to infect w/ virus w/o traps. I have a lvl 60 fortegunner lvl 9 female cast and the lvl4 status effects I can do help a lot. With the monster hp in sranks being 6000-20000 for most burn lvl4 is devastating. Virus/infection lvl4 will be even more so especially against burn proof monsters.

[huntlyon]

well, in regards to the wartechers... who do you want handling debuffing duties to keep the fortetechers on nuke detail?

[Niki]

On 2007-01-03 14:01, Taris wrote:
It leaves them in the "I play this game for fun" category.

If I was playing this game for the sake of speed-running thru levels over and over again, well...I'd probably NOT be playing this game anymore, and switch over to Gears of War or Viva Pinata or something. Because being expected to play a game in a way that's "all business" isn't very fun at all.

I love this post. That's why it's called a "game".

[Tra]

you know, I just play with whatever class. it depends more on the player rather than their class and items lol. Just today I've hit a 15minute completion for Onma S with... I believe me(fT), 2 fFs, 2 fG, 1 gt

yeah, sure you can be a 60/10 fortefighter with a 50% mukfet, or something, but it doesn't matter if you miss half your PAs or come into battle 10 seconds late, totally negating whatever damage potential that you have over teammates because you're a slacking noob. this problem is very serious among forces that like to waste time doing things like resta and use rods for damage heh


for those of you that want to give out the " I play this game for fun" excuse, let me tell you this IS how I have fun in this game, by seeing how well I can get my party to accomplish SOME sort of goal in this game.... so lighten up, seriously. what's so bad about trying to be the best anyhow? Wouldn't it be boring if nobody tried at all?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tra on 2007-01-04 01:11 ]</font>

[Shadow_Wing]

I don't try to be the best, I know I am >>;

Anyways...

It's purely dependent on the stage, Demon's Above is majorly range friendly compared to most stages in the game. If you don't bring along a ranger to this mission, say good bye to any speed for that mission.

It's nice that for once us rangers get some spotlight against the ever popular melees and tech classes http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif.

[Itsuki]

Ya, It'd be nice if it stayed that way. The large majority of the missions are melee centric. And theres quite a few missions where rangers are next to useless. ~_~ I think the current popularity really just stems for the only s-ranks implemented being very ranger friendly. With time, hunters will get their place.

[etlitch]

On 2007-01-03 13:57, Reidar wrote:
Fortefighters,It looks I'm doing a lot of damage by hitting for 500 with my axe's PA, but that's miniscule compared to somebody's virus trap or 21% burn bullet taking 1,000+ off the enemy for every tick caused by the status effectYou're using the wrong weapon. You're also not counting in that you can hit multiple targets using PA.

Lv56 F cast fF1, 20% opposite element spear = over 400x4x6 dmg from just using the first 2 PA combos. Pretty fast too. Even if only half of the attack hit, it's still higher DPS than forces.

DOT traps are only worth to be used on things with high maxhp since it reduces a percentage of the targets maxhp per tick. Tengohs may take 1k+ dmg per tick from viral traps, but that's because they have over 60k hp. Your average "cannon fodder" enemy has around 4-10k hp, that means much less damage. Mostly G traps are being used since you can inflict status on multiple enemies, but you can only carry 5 of each type.

[Alisha]

i wish people would shut up about DPSyou arent competing for party slots here. im planning to use twin claws so i say loldps.

[AC9breaker]

http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=131757&forum=20&start=0&15#15

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2007-01-03 15:13, Hildigam wrote:
A good pt needs a few good hunters personally.... I am a fortegunner and I can't imagine an all ranger Pt.

I actually did one in relics A right after the patch.... took us about 45 minutes w/6 cast rangers, three of which had all 8* equipment and were like 55+

As a fortegunner, i <3 you hunters



although 3 of my 4 characters are hunter types(Fighgunner, Fortefighter, Wartecher), I have my one character who isn't a Hunter, my Guntecher and yes, I agree with you that an ALL Ranger team will be uber gimped, it'll not only take forever, but it takes a huge toll on your wallet. This made me appreciate Hunters and makes me glad to be one. Hunters are important to the team in killing things fast, although you may not always be doing speed runs.

[Gen2000]

And so in the end this game basically comes down to knowing which is the best DPS setup for your Type or more people are becoming aware of it. You can speed run missions with many mixes of Types...you just have to know what you're doing.


And I disagree with an all Ranger group being gimped, a mass of multi-color bullets flying everywhere can make for clean and quick sweeps of rooms...if not that it at least looks badass, seriously check it out one day.

At the moment GoF is probably the only mission imo which serves up Rangers something fierce but not even Hunters do well there besides being meat shields and decoys for the FOs who is actually doing the real damage there. Wish Killer Shot was released sooner so that mission wouldn't be a big deal for us.

[Sexy_Raine]

Hunters do have usefulness(I guess) in other missions. Nova was in a party doing Endrum remnants B on a 5 person gunner team, and it took forever to do, sadly. Certain enemies are suited better for certain classes. I can true solo Sleeping warrior S in 1hr and 15 minutes, because it's aplace better suited for forces. Valley of Carnage and Mine Defense are most certainly in a ranger/force party's favor because of the map layout. Hunters will have their moment in System Denfense S, I'm sure since it's melee orinated(I can solo A BTW, http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif, took forever though). And Forces will be the dominate ones for Endum S when it comes out.

And yes, I have seen a lot more fortegunners lately, most likely they are someone's secondary character.

[Omega_Weltall]

On 2007-01-03 14:01, Taris wrote:


Oh, and if you ever run into me on Final Fantasy 11, never mention "let's grind levels at the dunes/jungle/whatever" to me. I'll bite someone's fool head off for that.




Thats the reason I dont play FF11 as much...pfft if at all. Great game, ruined but its community...

[Merumeru]

XD unless i feel like wasting traps on regular mobs, classes like fortefighters and the ilk will be more than useful XP

[Pure-chan]

On 2007-01-04 07:09, Sexy_Raine wrote:
Valley of Carnage and Mine Defense are most certainly in a ranger/force party's favor because of the map layout.



Errm, VoC is about as hunter friendly as it gets - provided you bring a few group hitting weps of the right element types. I've been doing VoC C rank in under 6 min, solo since I was in the low 30's and I'm pretty sure plenty of other HU have, too,

As far as S being in favor of rangers, I was under the impression that Vandas were burn proof on VoC S? Perhaps not. ._.

[Sexy_Raine]

On 2007-01-04 08:41, Pure-chan wrote:

On 2007-01-04 07:09, Sexy_Raine wrote:
Valley of Carnage and Mine Defense are most certainly in a ranger/force party's favor because of the map layout.



Errm, VoC is about as hunter friendly as it gets - provided you bring a few group hitting weps of the right element types. I've been doing VoC C rank in under 6 min, solo since I was in the low 30's and I'm pretty sure plenty of other HU have, too,

As far as S being in favor of rangers, I was under the impression that Vandas were burn proof on VoC S? Perhaps not. ._.





Hmm,I'm not sure about the S Vanda's and burn, I got to check that, I barta them to death. S Vanda are easy, as long as you stand on lower ground, their Diga are thrown higher than normal Vandas and most likely fly over your head. They just stand there repeatedly doing that attack, as lng as you don't knock them back, they will just stand there taking all the hits.

Here's a fun glitch, as I call "sleeping under the Vanda rocks". Go to VOC, and fight the Vandas and do the "Sit on the ground" animation while the Diga rocks fly over your head, they will magically disappear. Don't ask me why it happens O_o.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2007-01-04 08:55 ]</font>

[Jife_Jifremok]

Last time I checked, the S-rank vandas were burnable unless they are the buffed ones with the shield icons. (I also learned that Kog Nadds can be burned with a level 21+ handgun somehow.) There's a lot of those though. Besides, the whole standing-under-the-rocks thing (not to mention map layout of the Valley) that Raine mentioned provides an optimal environment for levelling bullets or techs that normally aren't bothered with.

[CyarVictor]

Hmm sounds like ego trips now with the whole we don't need hunters or this place is suited for so and so and this other map is built for dot dot dot. Only forces and rangers are needed.... *sighs*
What happened to playing this game the way you want. I can easily say i don't need a force ever when i'm with my Figunner and ForteFighter friends. We've done plenty of runs without a force everywhere, not that hard. And the whole meatshield comments, I'm proud to be a meat shield who can do the same damage as a fortetecher. But it's not fun like that to have class superiority BS where people start calculating, oh this map here; we're going to get 4 rangers and 2 forces, but then at this map, we'll change that to 6 forces.. blah blah blah.

Anyone can solo, any class can solo, any set of the mix can make an efficient party. Any set of the mix can make a shitty party. Depends on the player, not the character or class.