The problems of FO/RA synthing (patch related)

[Xx3of19xX]

So apparently Sega is going to patch the bug that allows you to reuse a board after a failed synth. But this bug shouldn't be a bug, it ought to be a feature, boards shouldn't lose uses on failed synths. And here's why:

Have any of you actually ever crunched the numbers on synths for casting and ranged weapons? Because it is VERY tough to make money on them as is (even with a pure PM, which will have cost you 700k+), and will be nigh impossible once this "bug" is patched:

Some examples for 8 and 9 star weapons:

Howrod 9*:
NPC store price: 250000

Production costs, NPC store bought mats:
El Photon *10 200-> 2000
Vulcaline *6 8000-> 48000
Cyral *9 2500 -> 22500
Neu Ebon *9 4000-> 36000
Total NPC mat costs: 108500
Board: 165000
Synth chance with pure Tech PM: 49%
Costs on average, using the bug:
276400 (108500/0,49 + 55000)
Post patch: 333700 ( (108500+55000)/0,49)

So lets see how much you can afford to buy the mats at if you want to break even (produce for NPC store price):
Prepatch:
108500x /0,49 + 55000 < 250000
221400x < 195000
Break even with eventual store price: 88%
Post patch it looks like this:
221400x + 112250 < 250000
221400x < 137750
62%

If you want to be able to sell them once they are available at the NPC, you'll have to keep your production costs below around 200k, sell for around 225000 (for a VERY modest profit of 25000):

Prepatch:
221400x + 55000 < 200000
65%

Post patch:
221400x + 112250 < 200000
40%

Good luck finding Neu Ebon at 1600 Meseta!

Mayrod 8*:
NPC Price: 165000

El Photon *10 200-> 2000
Kerseline *6 6000-> 36000
Cyral *6 2500 -> 15000
Neu Ebon *6 4000-> 24000
Total mat costs: 77000
Board: 110000
Max chance 54%

Cost for one Mayrod, NPC bought mats:
Prepatch: 179250
Post patch: 210500

Match NPC:
Prepatch: 90%
Postpatch: 68%

Profitable (120k production costs, selling for 140k):
Prepatch: 58%
Postpatch: 36%
i.e.:
El Photon: 72
Cyral: 900
Kerseline: 2160
Neu Ebon: 1440

The lowest I've seen Neu Ebon sell for (well not seen, but heard of, in Japanese shops on the 360, which are unsearchable to US players) is 2000.
Considering the huge amount of time you'd have to invest to hunt down materials at thosr low prices with PSUs clunky shop interface, you might as well just forget synthing NPC available casting and ranged weapons for profit unless you have most of the mats lying around.

Of course, the patch could have an effect on synth material pricing, but considering the large amount of people that sell synth mats for MORE than the NPC price, I have my doubts about the costs going THAT far down. Also the big X factor are melee weapons. As elemental weapons are few and far between at the NPCs, you can potentially make a lot more money if you hit manage to get a 50% weapon, but you're also gonna get a lot of low %s as well which will be hard to sell, even at cost.

/end whining (but very much justified) rant




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xx3of19xX on 2007-01-21 03:24 ]</font>

[-Shimarisu-]

It's worse for hunter weapons, much, much worse.

I consider any synth below 20% a failure.

That's over half of them.

[Xx3of19xX]

Well, you can still try and sell them at cost or a little below and hope some noob buys them http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
And anything that IS 20%+ you can sell for a good chunk more than NPC price for the neutral one.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xx3of19xX on 2007-01-21 02:58 ]</font>

[Remedy]

Hunter weapons with percents below 20% still fucking FUNCTION.

A failed Howrod or Phantom is a monomate. A "failed" Caliburn (failed being your perspective) is still a Caliburn.

[Xx3of19xX]

Well, we're talking selling weapons for meseta profit here. A concept that doesn't really exist on your server. Very few people will pay you 200K for a 10% 9 Star Melee weapon.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-01-21 02:59, Remedy wrote:
Hunter weapons with percents below 20% still fucking FUNCTION.

A failed Howrod or Phantom is a monomate. A "failed" Caliburn (failed being your perspective) is still a Caliburn.



Um, I think you've missed the stunning fact here that hunter weapons can become a monomate too, without only what is it, about 5-7% less chance of that happening than for FO or RA weapons? Which is only fair, because FO and RA weapons function at 100% no matter what, whereas a 10-14% hunter weap is UTTER junk, not even touching the damage a FO can do with a much easier to synth weapon.

Believe me, the REASON I play mostly ranger now, is because I FIND THIS SHIT EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING.

It is MUCH harder to equip a hunter well than it is a FO or RA.

[akratic]

Or you could be patient and farm materials and meseta in order to make profits.

Or you could realize that it might take time to equip a hunter with great weapons. Other players have figured this out without exploiting the synth glitch.

Bad game design! Bad game design!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: akratic on 2007-01-21 07:53 ]</font>

[Hotashi]

On 2007-01-21 07:52, akratic wrote:
Or you could be patient and farm materials and meseta in order to make profits.

Or you could realize that it might take time to equip a hunter with great weapons. Other players have figured this out without exploiting the synth glitch.

Bad game design! Bad game design!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: akratic on 2007-01-21 07:53 ]</font>


What do you know?

[akratic]

On 2007-01-21 08:11, Hotashi wrote:
What do you know?


I know how to formulate responses that make sense. You should try it.

[PMB960]

The idea is that you shouldn't be paying for all the Materials. People also seem to forget about conversion boards. I have 25 Neu Ash sitting in my PM right now. For 2000 Meseta that is alot of Neu Ebon. All of those crappy Speral that I picked up can be made into Cyral too. The only hard one to convert is Vucaline. Adding up the cost if you do it that way it costs 58K for materials if you have no Vucaline at all. The idea behind synthing is it is only profitable if you find the items yourself or atleast convert them.

[Laranas]

On 2007-01-21 07:52, akratic wrote:
Or you could be patient and farm materials and meseta in order to make profits.

Or you could realize that it might take time to equip a hunter with great weapons. Other players have figured this out without exploiting the synth glitch.

Bad game design! Bad game design!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: akratic on 2007-01-21 07:53 ]</font>
Bad game design to make it hard and tedious to get the stronger weapons of the game?

[akratic]

Rather than use a rhetorical question, just state what you mean. Thanks.

It is not bad game design to make it difficult to get stronger weapons. It is not bad game design to offer a balance between farming and making little profit. if you want to make money, of course you have to work for it. It is clearly designed that way. The game is not designed for those looking for instant and great gratification.

Bunch of babies.

[Parn]

Shimarisu's 100% right about synthing for hunters. I don't feel sorry for rangers or forces with their synthing.

1. You can buy Im and El photons for dirt cheap, NPC shop or otherwise. Hunters can't get theirs from an NPC shop unless you use regular photons, which is a waste of time because then your hunter's damage is permanently limited. Even a 10% element weapon is better than a green weapon. See: overpriced elemental photons on PS2/PC servers.

2. Rangers and forces can swap elements on weapons any time. Hunters can't. A ranger and force can synth six weapons and they're good to go. They can switch to all dark if they're going in relics, if they feel so inclined. They can switch to all earth if they're going on Parum. And so forth. If a hunter wants a set of six weapons for each element, we have to synth thirty-six of them, and this is where we get to....

3. In order for us to get high damage, we HAVE to have high % element on them, and we all know that getting high % elemental weapons is not exactly commonplace. I have a 44% ice muktrand and a 44% lightning giza-misaki, but I burned through a crapload of photons to get them, and I'm running out of money and have no photons. My friend has capped ice bullets on rifle, and does 350 damage a shot. My 44% ice muktrand stabs for 300ish damage instead. Dus Daggas will put me ahead, sure... but I can't spam that nonstop. If we get to other melee weapons that don't have the attack that a spear has, I'm doing 200ish damage instead, while mister ranger in the distance is firing for 300+ a shot in safety, WHILE applying status effects.

I've lost a crapload of money on hunter weapon synthing. Trust me, hunters have it way worse. Rangers and forces may spend more on PP recharging, but we spend far, far more on synthing, and we fail our synths just as often as rangers and forces.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Parn on 2007-01-21 09:26 ]</font>

[Sekani]

On 2007-01-21 09:16, akratic wrote:
Rather than use a rhetorical question, just state what you mean. Thanks.

It is not bad game design to make it difficult to get stronger weapons. It is not bad game design to offer a balance between farming and making little profit. if you want to make money, of course you have to work for it. It is clearly designed that way. The game is not designed for those looking for instant and great gratification.

Bunch of babies.


Follow your own advice and tell me what the hell you mean with that "Bad game design!" comment. If that was supposed to be sarcasm, it came off pretty badly.

[Laranas]

On 2007-01-21 09:16, akratic wrote:
Rather than use a rhetorical question, just state what you mean. Thanks.

It is not bad game design to make it difficult to get stronger weapons. It is not bad game design to offer a balance between farming and making little profit. if you want to make money, of course you have to work for it. It is clearly designed that way. The game is not designed for those looking for instant and great gratification.

Bunch of babies.

That's exactly what I meant, but sarcasm is hard to pickup in text so I didn't catch it in your original post.

But the original posted forgot the fact that 9* ranged and casting weapons aren't buyable from NPC yet and therefore people can sell them at 500k+ a success, making profit much more obtainable than the number-crunching method suggests. And yes, even on a pure PM the chance is still 49%, but my Pure Tech has been about 100% on 9*, yet my Pure Strike is 2/6 on Double Sabers (7* weapon, 67% chance) and those 2 came out 10%

So I still think it's much harder for hunters

[akratic]

Sorry, forgot this was a smiley and backslash crowd. I'll dumb it down next time.

[Zato-2TWO]

Oh my gods! You mean...we have to play the game to get expensive materials!?

[VectormanX]

Not to mention, FO and RA weapons drop. So no need to synth anything unless you want to.
9* HU weapons drop with no element, so you HAVE to synth if you want elemental weapons of your choice.
Only a few exceptions apply there, 5* tenora spear, 8* GRM saber, etc etc.

[akratic]

Do elemental photons not drop on the PS2/PC version? Honestly, on the 360 I share synth material with a fortetecher and a fortefighter and we always have plenty of elemental photons for the hunter weapons and armor synths we try. Yet I repeatedly hear complaints about photon costs on the PS2/PC version. Maybe that 3 of us pool our photons makes all the difference, but I am selling extras to NPCs at the end of runs, as I have so many in my storage.

[Laranas]

On 2007-01-21 09:34, akratic wrote:
Do elemental photons not drop on the PS2/PC version? Honestly, on the 360 I share synth material with a fortetecher and a fortefighter and we always have plenty of elemental photons for the hunter weapons and armor synths we try. Yet I repeatedly hear complaints about photon costs on the PS2/PC version. Maybe that 3 of us pool our photons makes all the difference, but I am selling extras to NPCs at the end of runs, as I have so many in my storage.

People are just too lazy to hunt their own, yet it takes like 4 minutes to find 5+ ray-photons.

[akratic]

On 2007-01-21 09:28, Laranas wrote:And yes, even on a pure PM the chance is still 49%, but my Pure Tech has been about 100% on 9*, yet my Pure Strike is 2/6 on Double Sabers (7* weapon, 67% chance) and those 2 came out 10%

So I still think it's much harder for hunters

Sorry about the misunderstanding, then.

Your anecdote is the opposite of my experience, by the way. Our hunter PM is a maniac - she rarely fails and has cranked out a bunch of 44%s and a 50% ice axe. My range PM, on the other hand, loves the 7 stars, but is not so hot (miserable, really) on the 9 stars.

That's just how chance works.

[VanHalen]

i hunt for photons. i never thought people sold them in shops when i joined so i never looked. then i hear they sell them for 10K so that made never want to look. but if ranger and force weapons that are sold in stores so much money to synth why dont you just buy them? even if you synth it its just gonna have the same element anyway.

[Parn]

On 2007-01-21 09:35, Laranas wrote:
People are just too lazy to hunt their own, yet it takes like 4 minutes to find 5+ ray-photons.
If you could be so kind as to point me in the direction where I can get 5+ ray photons in about 4 minutes, I'd be very appreciative!

[Laranas]

On 2007-01-21 09:40, Parn wrote:

On 2007-01-21 09:35, Laranas wrote:
People are just too lazy to hunt their own, yet it takes like 4 minutes to find 5+ ray-photons.
If you could be so kind as to point me in the direction where I can get 5+ ray photons in about 4 minutes, I'd be very appreciative!

Do some Unsafe Passage C.. takes about 5-7 minutes if you have a 360-degree PA, and on most runs I exit with 3-4 of every photon at the least. Bring your PM too, it'll get easy levels.

[Parn]

You're changing your story silly person! Now you say it takes 5-7 minutes! ARGH

Heh, I do that stage already, but was hoping you knew of something different since I love me some ray photons.

[Remedy]

On 2007-01-21 09:40, Parn wrote:
If you could be so kind as to point me in the direction where I can get 5+ ray photons in about 4 minutes, I'd be very appreciative!*points in the direction of Linear Line C*

And you know what? You do 200-ish a stab. That costs you 0 PP. Mister Ranger does 300 a shot. That costs him 18 PP.

Mister Ranger's PP runs out at some point, and at that point, he is doing 0 a shot. You're still doing 200-ish a stab.

[Nayte]

On 2007-01-21 09:56, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-01-21 09:40, Parn wrote:
If you could be so kind as to point me in the direction where I can get 5+ ray photons in about 4 minutes, I'd be very appreciative!*points in the direction of Linear Line C*

And you know what? You do 200-ish a stab. That costs you 0 PP. Mister Ranger does 300 a shot. That costs him 18 PP.

Mister Ranger's PP runs out at some point, and at that point, he is doing 0 a shot. You're still doing 200-ish a stab.



I know exactly what you mean. Mister ranger only over a thouasand pp and can do damage from a distance as well as inflict status effects. I feel sorry for him.
Mister hunter has it so easy.

[Parn]

I don't know of too many rangers that run out of PP in missions anymore, and even when they do run out of PP, most take the opportunity to leave the area and do a quick recharge, so it's kind of a non-issue. That applies to force, too. Hell, if I'm at the final room for Lab S, I go back to recharge my weapons too.

[Hotashi]

What parn said.

[VanHalen]

yeah and also guns recovery alot more PP than bladed weapons, have alot more PP, and have a faster recovery rate. on one mission my shotgun felt like it had unlimited ammo from how fast it recovered.

[Remedy]

Well, with 9* weapons, that's kinda silly, actually. 9* weapons cost up to 510 meseta to charge at empty (depending on the weapon - Howrods, Ulteris, and Phantoms are the worst culprits), meaning it's actually MORE economical to carry Photon Charges and do it on the spot.

Regardless, having to leave the field and recharge is time wasted that makes the party slower as a whole. I'm just saying. Yes, I agree the photon situation for you guys is bullshit, but I also don't agree with the "omg if ur weaponz arent 30%+ there sux lolol" mentality.

That said, I collect elemental photons. I offer these to melee classes and armorsmiths in exchange for things I need: Neu Ebon, Cyral, and elemental armor. Shoot me a PM, and we can negotiate - I'm always more a fan of fair trade versus price extortion due to a hyper-inflated economy.

[Reiichi]

A more direct comparion would be imagine if you had to make all your weapons +10 kubara in the PS/PC market. That would be like hunters trying for 44%+ weapons.

Rangers and forces can always carry extra weapons. Sure it costs more, but a set of 6 weapons or 12 weapons even if you're concerned about PP would likely not even net a hunter a single decent weapon.

A hunter could essentially play like a ranger or force. Go all out 10-20% elemental weapons and have MANY of them, then spam PAs intelligently yet nonstop. End up with some 2-2.5k average recharges or so but it is still good damage since you are relying on PA. Drawback is you either spam green (wrong element for 0% bonus) or carry like 10 of each elemental weapon so you don't run out of PP. Photon charges offer crappy mileage on hunter weapons.

Stabbing with your 44% spear will have damage that can't compare to PA spamming a 10% spear. I wish more people walked around with 10% weapons (or higher % B weapons) rather than use the wrong element or green. Or if you do go green or use the wrong element, only use that weapon for PA spamming and not normal attacks.

Want a decent earth yamata-senba Remedy? Do you have like a thousand ray photons on hand? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Remedy]

Nah, not in the market for earth, sorry. Now that I've hit Fortecher 10, my (limited) interest in Bruce's is fading VERY fast.

Now, if that was a Light Yamata, or a Dark above 26%, then yes, I'd go farm you some photons. :>

[CelestialBlade]

It's not that hard to counteract the advantage Rangers and Forces have with being able to swap out elements whenever they want, I think. First of all, remember that there is a strict limit on how many Photon Arts you can learn at a given time. This normally isn't that big of a deal for Forces (for now, anyway) but for Rangers, it certainly means you can't go running around with all six elements for every single gun. I know a lot of Rangers, my Guntecher included, that put an element or two to each type of weapon. For example, have your Rifle be Fire, have your Shotgun be Ice, and have your Bow be Light, or something. You are still elementally versatile, but you also don't have to waste time switching out PAs every five seconds and you have plenty of room to add on more PAs, which is useful to have if you're a hybrid advanced class.

So, why not do the same thing for your Hunter weapons? It really pays off to be versatile in this game, anyway. You have six slots in your hotbar thing, so have each one be a different weapon with a different element. Saves a lot of time and money.

I've never understood the desire to instantaneously be uber-powerful. Seems like it'd make the game real boring, real quick. If you even look at it as a "game" at that point, anyhow.

[Remedy]

Because not every melee weapon has LOLkai or Dus LOLgas.

...I'm kidding, please don't kill me. *flees*

[RadiantLegend]

I never use those 2 PAs anymore. And with 28 weapons on me at all times, running out of PA is never a problem. I even carry 10 photon charges and a charge cosmo if i "should" happen to run out.

My point is i'd rather carry a lot of 10% weapons than one impossible 50% one.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

In my opinion, A rank weapons and armors were never intended to be synthesized for profit, but only for personaly use.

Furthermore, the synth glitch was cheating, just as bad as the Meseta duping, and I'm glad it is gone.

[Pengfishh]

On 2007-01-21 02:51, -Shimarisu- wrote:
It's worse for hunter weapons, much, much worse.

I consider any synth below 20% a failure.

That's over half of them.



Agreed, very much so.

[Kelevra]

Inflate your economy with hacked meseta like ours, than you wont have this issue http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Jey]

Then I got a Crea Doubles board for a friend last night and its 56% success rate on his strike PM made me cry. Wasn't Halarod 75% success? -_-

[Sephlock]

Its worth considering the experience of the "not incredibly rich" demographic.

As a poor ranger playing alongside poor hunters, I have to say that the hunters DEFINITELY HAVE A MUCH MUCH EASIER TIME OF IT.

HA! There! I said it! And no amount of flaming me can make it not true! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

Aside from the hideously Darwinian "OMG HUNTERS GET EVERYTHING LOLOLOLOLOL" setting that almost everyone on the 360 seems to be using (also known as "give finder), theres also the fact that Remedy mentioned earlier: Rangers are wholly dependant upon PP for dealing damage. If they run out, and AREN'T one of you level 70 "I wipe my butt with De Ragan tails" elites, they're SOL.

Hunters get to do high damage, AND get to do it more often AND more quickly.

If Rangers are really so great, why is the demand for Fortefighters in Bruce's so high? Where are the people clamoring for Fortegunners?

Why is it that whenever I team with my fellow Ranger types, runs take forever, whereas the addition of a few Hunter types makes the runs go incredibly fast?

I get to stand back and go plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink....plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink.... status effect.... plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink.... monster dead.

Meanwhile, the hunters run in, SLASH SLASH SLASH monster dead, SLASH SLASH SLASH monster dead.

Yeah... they have it real tough http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sephlock on 2007-01-21 13:30 ]</font>

[zanotam]

On 2007-01-21 12:25, Sephlock wrote:
Its worth considering the experience of the "not incredibly rich" demographic.

As a poor ranger playing alongside poor hunters, I have to say that the hunters DEFINITELY HAVE A MUCH MUCH EASIER TIME OF IT.

HA! There! I said it! And no amount of flaming me can make it not true! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

Aside from the hideously Darwinian "OMG HUNTERS GET EVERYTHING LOLOLOLOLOL" setting that almost everyone on the 360 seems to be using (also known as "give finder), theres also the fact that Remedy mentioned earlier: Rangers are wholly dependant upon PP for dealing damage. If they run out, and AREN'T one of you level 70 "I wipe my butt with De Ragan tails" elites, they're SOL.

Hunters get to do high damage, AND get to do it more often AND more quickly.

If Rangers are really so great, why is the demand for Fortefighters in Bruce's so high? Where are the people clamoring for Fortegunners?

Why is it that whenever I team with my fellow Ranger types, runs take forever, whereas the addition of a few Hunter types makes the runs go incredibly fast?

I get to stand back and go plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink....plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink.... status effect.... plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink.... monster dead.

Meanwhile, the hunters run in, SLASH SLASH SLASH monster dead, SLASH SLASH SLASH monster dead.

Yeah... they have it real tough... (is there an eyeroll smiley available on this forum?)


Now i mean on PC/PS2 we PT's have it easy for traps but if YOU think you got it bad traps are like sometimes 10k per run if i go easy on them on say bruces, but all i get is say 1100 in the reward. Not to mention 3*ranged weapons. if you think YOU have it hard go play PT then complain. Personally though i love my PT to death, but it is rather expencive and unless youre in high lvl places with good reward traps are main way of doing damage or horribly uneconomical.

[Sychosis]

On 2007-01-21 12:25, Sephlock wrote:
(is there an eyeroll smiley available on this forum?)



:roll:

[Jasam]

Do I need to point out that farming your own ray-photons doesn't save you a penny.
Buy to from a store at 5K each, Loss = 50K from buying them

Use 10 you find youself, Loss = 50K from not selling them

And anyone who tryes to arguee anything other then hunters have the most costly synths are foolish.
And the gap grows with level.... By the time you getting to 6* ranks +, A hunter can spend more money on getting a good elemental % weapon then a FO can spend grinding a weapon to +10 by a huge margin, let alone if said huntere trys to get a +10 weapon with good %s.....

[DarkSeph]

Ahem........if you look at what their motive for the shops is, it has nothing to do with people making meseta, it's more or less for people to interact with each other more versus the old PSO games where you had only trade windows or No windows.......It is a way to share the goods.....as for making meseta......Most if not All the weapons truely cost more to make over a long haul than to sell especially with shops selling good stuff now. You really should focus on either buying what people have already available and if that is not available then turn to synthing.......but don't try to synth as a means of profit unless you are a lucky few who get boards like Crea Doubles and sell the board or actually make them and sell them

[CelestialBlade]

If synthing isn't profitable, how are all these people making 13 million a day? I'd love to know, I'm happy with, like, 200k http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Sephlock]

Price Gouging

[Ooga]

I don't know about you, but I get weapons to kill stuff, not try to sell them worrying about how much money I'd be making.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-01-21 09:56, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-01-21 09:40, Parn wrote:
If you could be so kind as to point me in the direction where I can get 5+ ray photons in about 4 minutes, I'd be very appreciative!*points in the direction of Linear Line C*

And you know what? You do 200-ish a stab. That costs you 0 PP. Mister Ranger does 300 a shot. That costs him 18 PP.

Mister Ranger's PP runs out at some point, and at that point, he is doing 0 a shot. You're still doing 200-ish a stab.



Hi, I'm Mr Ranger.

Mr. Ranger doesn't care. It's much harder to equip a hunter than a ranger. It costs them way more. PP recharging is penny change, and I'm saying that FROM THE 360 VERSION. Get over yourself.

Mr. Ranger's PAs are also a lot harder to raise than Mr. Force's, which is why I maintain that Mr. Force has it EASIEST OF ALL in this game, and needs rebalancing.

[Sephlock]

Alternatively Hunter and Ranger could be rebalanced http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif.

"Rebalance" need not equal "Nerf".

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-01-21 12:25, Sephlock wrote:
Its worth considering the experience of the "not incredibly rich" demographic.

As a poor ranger playing alongside poor hunters, I have to say that the hunters DEFINITELY HAVE A MUCH MUCH EASIER TIME OF IT.

HA! There! I said it! And no amount of flaming me can make it not true! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

Aside from the hideously Darwinian "OMG HUNTERS GET EVERYTHING LOLOLOLOLOL" setting that almost everyone on the 360 seems to be using (also known as "give finder), theres also the fact that Remedy mentioned earlier: Rangers are wholly dependant upon PP for dealing damage. If they run out, and AREN'T one of you level 70 "I wipe my butt with De Ragan tails" elites, they're SOL.

Hunters get to do high damage, AND get to do it more often AND more quickly.

If Rangers are really so great, why is the demand for Fortefighters in Bruce's so high? Where are the people clamoring for Fortegunners?

Why is it that whenever I team with my fellow Ranger types, runs take forever, whereas the addition of a few Hunter types makes the runs go incredibly fast?

I get to stand back and go plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink....plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink.... status effect.... plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink.... plink... plink... plink.... monster dead.

Meanwhile, the hunters run in, SLASH SLASH SLASH monster dead, SLASH SLASH SLASH monster dead.

Yeah... they have it real tough http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sephlock on 2007-01-21 13:30 ]</font>


Because you're supposed to be a support class, and the hunter is the damage class, and without rangers who support properly the hunters ARE slower on their own, as well as more expensive to play as.

Play every class in the game and you will know this. Don't play every class? Don't say it. I'm not telling you you need to.

I was once told by a haughty FO that I had to play a FO to appreciate the job a FO has to do.

I made one (not because I was told, but out of pure interest), played it to job level 10 and found it an ABSOLUTE cakewalk. And most my techs were capped too so it's not like I didn't play properly.

I also played a ranger. On the field, rangers are the most challenging class, and the highest support. That is, if you play in areas most appropiate to your level. Most people do not. Most people run ridiculous speed runs of easy S areas then boast about it, something they only need one or two rangers around for, and PURELY to bring flying shit down for the hunters to kill.

I synthed over 300 hunter weaps on my hunter chars (I have every expert hunter class). It's very frustrating.

Hunters get a relatively easy time on field if their support is good. However, without good %s they can be easily outdamaged by a FORCE, a situation I find unacceptable as force gets, what does force get?

1. Easily attained high damage.
2. Easily attained weapons, not requiring any %.
3. The second easiest to raise PAs.

What does ranger get?

1. Not so easy to attain high damage, they should concentrate on status effects as well as this to be a functional ranger player.
2. Easily attained weapons, not requiring any %. Possibly the easiest in fact, ranger weaps drop in more places, and kubara swaps are cheap and valuable to produce.
3. The most FRUSTRATINGLY difficult to raise PAs.

What does hunter get?

1. Easy to attain high damage.
2. The most ridiculously DIFFICULT to attain weapons, requiring % for that damage to outstrip a force. Spending more money on weapons if they are skilled than ANY OTHER CLASS SPENDS ON ANYTHING IN THE GAME, PERIOD.
3. The easiest to raise PAs.

There are a myriad other factors, but I think Forces have the easiest job. I just remade my FOnewm and he will be Fortetecher, so I am not about to state my case from an unexperienced perspective. I WILL have that fortetecher level 10, and he WILL be the class I find least challenging of all, I'm certain of it.

[McLaughlin]

On 2007-01-21 02:59, Remedy wrote:
Hunter weapons with percents below 20% still fucking FUNCTION.

A failed Howrod or Phantom is a monomate. A "failed" Caliburn (failed being your perspective) is still a Caliburn.



If a Ranger/Force weapons succeeds, you're good to go.

Even if a Hunter weapon succeeds, you still need to pray the percentage isn't less than 20-24%, because it's still worthless if it is.

NOT TO MENTION, even ATTEMPTING to make a weapon with an elemental attribute lowers the chance of success by nearly 10%.

Poor Remedy has it so ****ing tough.

[nooblet]

well ill buy those "worthless" weapons for dirt cheap then instead of the few hundred k's that I be seeing.

[-Shimarisu-]

Just don't buy them, the only people bnuying worthless % weaps are hackers.

On the 360? They ain't buying at ALL. I have had a 10% 6* dagger in my shop for 5K for the LONGEST time, may just feed it to my PM.

[PMB960]

But Shimarisu you are only talking about what good things a Force has going for them and ignoring everything else. Hunters don't have to worry about getting OHK by every monster in an S rank mission never mind the bosses. Hunters can get more exp since it is easier to tag all the monsters and send them flying where as with a Force you have to hope someone doesn't send an enemy flying since you have no lock on. Also with a Force in the party you don't need to spend money on mates if they know what they are doing although the force still needs to shell out 1000 or so per mission minimum. On many of the easy S rank missions you can easily spend half the S rank mission reward recharging your weapons.

[Sephlock]

-Shimarisu-: I was writing in response to the guy who seemed to be implying that rangers somehow dealt more damage- and from a distance- than his hunter could, simply because he did not have his magical 50% elemental weapon.

[MomoHana]

I jut want to say that the Synth Failure thing is find. Don't like it. Don't synth. Easy. I've gotten my share of failures and successes [15% Crea Doubles on Armor PM] So don't whine. It'a part of the game.

[McLaughlin]

On 2007-01-21 16:27, PMB960 wrote:
But Shimarisu you are only talking about what good things a Force has going for them and ignoring everything else. Hunters don't have to worry about getting OHK by every monster in an S rank mission never mind the bosses. Hunters can get more exp since it is easier to tag all the monsters and send them flying where as with a Force you have to hope someone doesn't send an enemy flying since you have no lock on. Also with a Force in the party you don't need to spend money on mates if they know what they are doing although the force still needs to shell out 1000 or so per mission minimum. On many of the easy S rank missions you can easily spend half the S rank mission reward recharging your weapons.



Uh...

Forces DON'T need to worry about being OHKO'd because they sit right before the area where the monsters despawn and fire their techs away. And if they weren't so "ZOMG DAMUBARTA" they'd be able to hit everything easily, like with a debuff.

I've NEVER heard a Force complain about having to recharge. Nor have I ever heard one say it was costing them a minimum of 1000 meseta.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-01-21 16:27, PMB960 wrote:
But Shimarisu you are only talking about what good things a Force has going for them and ignoring everything else. Hunters don't have to worry about getting OHK by every monster in an S rank mission never mind the bosses. Hunters can get more exp since it is easier to tag all the monsters and send them flying where as with a Force you have to hope someone doesn't send an enemy flying since you have no lock on. Also with a Force in the party you don't need to spend money on mates if they know what they are doing although the force still needs to shell out 1000 or so per mission minimum. On many of the easy S rank missions you can easily spend half the S rank mission reward recharging your weapons.



Forces only need to equip the right units and learn to dodge to avoid being KOed. They get hit far less than hunters do. They are, EXTREMELY easy to play compared to Hunter and Ranger. I'm sorry. I'm going to prove it.

I look forward to a nerf, but avoiding death is IMO not terribly challenging.

[Sephlock]

Just out of curiosity, which spells do you find best fit that playstyle (Shiramisu)?