Force is hard.

[Almalexia]

I started one on a new character and spent a hefty 22,000 in techs. When I got in a party after soloing for a bit, I instantly felt insecure with the class. I usually roll with a fighter class and you know monsters don't ever go after fighters. I was getting smacked everywhere and aiming techs, why did that have to be hardest part of all? Embarrassing to say, I missed diga like 15 times. After a dissappointing De Ragan fight, I went back to my main class.

I just gained more respect for forces.

[-Ryuki-]

Agreed. I never once thought as FO to be an easy class to play. Rather, I always found it to be advanced. They can't aim their techs like HU's and RA's do, and they don't take damage as lightly.

[Almalexia]

I really liked the casting animation with rods, that and wanting to try my hand at support inticed me to try it out.

[-Ryuki-]

I guess it would depend on your gender. I like the male casting animation with the wands more than the rods.

[Tahldon]

Yeah, having been a Force for so long, it's impossible for me to be a fighter or a ranger. (Much less anything of a combo.)

We all have our skills. That works out for us all actually.

[_Deliverance_]

You get used to it. But what I can't get used to, is playing FT in pickup parties. The majority of the time, it felt like baby sitting. Fuck that. When my friends arent on, I go play my Protranser. No respobsibility there, other than damaging and enfeebling. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[MayLee]

Now you know how us Forces feel. >.>

[-Shimarisu-]

Forces are bloody easy to play, get used to aiming and you'll see what I mean.

They are as easy as hunters to play and about 20 times easier to equip.

[rena-ko]

you can get used to playing a force, but being a fighter is a more carefree style. the tech juggling alone, if you dont want to specialize on 2 / 4 of them.

[Maridia]

Forces are tedious to play, especially if you're trying to level your techs. Aiming isn't too difficult, you just need to sit back, wait, and focus. And even that's only with certain techs. I would like to try a force alt, but I'm more concerned with how much I don't want to sit there leveling techs so I do proper damage.

And yeah, hunters get the bum side when it comes to equipping. Stupid elements.

[ljkkjlcm9]

None of the classes are hard to play, the game isn't hard to play.

THE JACKEL

[Weakness]

On 2007-01-22 04:42, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Forces are bloody easy to play, get used to aiming and you'll see what I mean.

They are as easy as hunters to play and about 20 times easier to equip.



I'm sorry, but I have to say it.

I'm sick of hunters bitching about elemental weapons. Get over it already. It isn't like having a 12% weapon makes you so inanely gimp you aren't allowed to play any more. And besides, what makes you think Rangers and Forces have it so easy?

For my standard Ranger equipment I have, 6 rifles, 2 grenade launchers, 2 twin handguns, 2 crossbows, 2 laser cannons, 2 mechguns, and 2 daggers. And on any given S run, I tend to drain all but one or two weapons.

I have seen FotreFighters/FighGunners/WarTechers with 3 sets of weapons and still do fine. Stop crying like it is the end of the world if you don't have every element weapon... and please, please, please stop crying if you synth a lower end % weapon, you don't need to have 50% of every element to do your damned job.

On topic:
Force isn't so hard... well the way I play at least.

*Tags with Jellen and Zalure*
*Puts Shifta/Deband/whatever the other two were up*
*Resta*

Wash, rinse, repeat. I dunno, when I play Force I like to support... I don't really see it as a damage class, though I do see the perks of 1000+ Diga spam http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-01-22 04:49, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
None of the classes are hard to play, the game isn't hard to play.

THE JACKEL



It is if you keep your parties low in number (4 max), and as soon as it gets too easy move to a higher area.

Stop playing in bloody easy areas ffs.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-01-22 04:54, Weakness wrote:

On 2007-01-22 04:42, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Forces are bloody easy to play, get used to aiming and you'll see what I mean.

They are as easy as hunters to play and about 20 times easier to equip.



I'm sorry, but I have to say it.

I'm sick of hunters bitching about elemental weapons. Get over it already. It isn't like having a 12% weapon makes you so inanely gimp you aren't allowed to play any more. And besides, what makes you think Rangers and Forces have it so easy?



I play mostly as ranger, and in fact I have more cumulative levels in force than hunter. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

edit: lol mistook you for Alisha ah well.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-01-22 04:59 ]</font>

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2007-01-22 04:55, -Shimarisu- wrote:

On 2007-01-22 04:49, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
None of the classes are hard to play, the game isn't hard to play.

THE JACKEL



It is if you keep your parties low in number (4 max), and as soon as it gets too easy move to a higher area.

Stop playing in bloody easy areas ffs.


I don't play in bloody easy areas, I play in the hardest areas available and have no problems. I can go through Lab S runs, Neu Relic S runs, Onma S, and not have any problems. The night before the last big update, I was trying to get to 60, and me and one other dude were playing at crunch time at Lab S, just the two of us, with an hour before the update, and we cleared it no problem. The game is not hard by any means. It may get annoying at times, but that doesn't make it hard.

THE JACKEL

[-Shimarisu-]

Onma S is easy, Neu Relics is easy, now go off and duo or solo most your games like I do until we get more updates that are challenging to those who powerlevelled.

When I exhaust the challenging nature of the game, I start a new character. I don't have a single one over 55, and maxxing stats and levels was never what it was about for me.

THE JACKEL

[Fran]

I used to play Hunter in all the other PSO games. THIS time around I tried something new, and I am in -love- with forces.

[rena-ko]

no grinding game is hard.
its just a matter on how close you push yourself to the required stats for something.
if you want to play something hard then go for something thats either unfair or challenging. for the latter, try timesplitters2 story mode on hard, or f-zero GX.


on request of the OP, i'll unlock this thread again.
if i see that it devolves off topic into a general discussion or any sign of agression, i'll close it again.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rena-ko on 2007-01-22 10:29 ]</font>

[Almalexia]

On 2007-01-22 04:54, Weakness wrote:

On 2007-01-22 04:42, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Forces are bloody easy to play, get used to aiming and you'll see what I mean.

They are as easy as hunters to play and about 20 times easier to equip.



I'm sorry, but I have to say it.

I'm sick of hunters bitching about elemental weapons. Get over it already. It isn't like having a 12% weapon makes you so inanely gimp you aren't allowed to play any more. And besides, what makes you think Rangers and Forces have it so easy?

For my standard Ranger equipment I have, 6 rifles, 2 grenade launchers, 2 twin handguns, 2 crossbows, 2 laser cannons, 2 mechguns, and 2 daggers. And on any given S run, I tend to drain all but one or two weapons.

I have seen FotreFighters/FighGunners/WarTechers with 3 sets of weapons and still do fine. Stop crying like it is the end of the world if you don't have every element weapon... and please, please, please stop crying if you synth a lower end % weapon, you don't need to have 50% of every element to do your damned job.

On topic:
Force isn't so hard... well the way I play at least.

*Tags with Jellen and Zalure*
*Puts Shifta/Deband/whatever the other two were up*
*Resta*

Wash, rinse, repeat. I dunno, when I play Force I like to support... I don't really see it as a damage class, though I do see the perks of 1000+ Diga spam http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



In terms of PP the 2 classes you mention *do* have it the easiest. Fighters spend less in PP but we run out of PP the fastest of any class. Your 1500+PP weapon vs. my 350PP Mukfet. By the time you get to 350PP, I've exhuasted my spear and running low on another. It LOOKS we're doing fine but we're not. I carry 26 weapons btw and often I have to switch in new weapons cause frankly 6 to a pallete isn't enough.

Also I believe there is a damage cap with weapons reguardless of how high the percent is. IMO aiming for 20% and onward is limiting yourself. 12%, 14, 17, etc doesn't matter. You need that elemental bonus. Green weapons are inefficient.

Force requires quick thinking. I'm not exactly a quick thinker. When surrounded by 10 monsters all facing you and you have jellen/zalure/heal/spam tech/shifta/deband/those yellow ones/run for your life, it gets overwhelming. Monsters being tossed everywhere didn't make it harder to be honest. It made it easier lol. I react too slowly for force.

And my style was going to be similar to yours.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Almalexia on 2007-01-22 11:18 ]</font>

[Gamemako]

On 2007-01-22 04:54, Weakness wrote:

On 2007-01-22 04:42, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Forces are bloody easy to play, get used to aiming and you'll see what I mean.

They are as easy as hunters to play and about 20 times easier to equip.



I'm sorry, but I have to say it.

I'm sick of hunters bitching about elemental weapons. Get over it already. It isn't like having a 12% weapon makes you so inanely gimp you aren't allowed to play any more. And besides, what makes you think Rangers and Forces have it so easy?

For my standard Ranger equipment I have, 6 rifles, 2 grenade launchers, 2 twin handguns, 2 crossbows, 2 laser cannons, 2 mechguns, and 2 daggers. And on any given S run, I tend to drain all but one or two weapons.

I have seen FotreFighters/FighGunners/WarTechers with 3 sets of weapons and still do fine. Stop crying like it is the end of the world if you don't have every element weapon... and please, please, please stop crying if you synth a lower end % weapon, you don't need to have 50% of every element to do your damned job.

On topic:
Force isn't so hard... well the way I play at least.

*Tags with Jellen and Zalure*
*Puts Shifta/Deband/whatever the other two were up*
*Resta*

Wash, rinse, repeat. I dunno, when I play Force I like to support... I don't really see it as a damage class, though I do see the perks of 1000+ Diga spam http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



Rangers. Because 2400 per tick on Jarbas is fair.

[Weakness]

On 2007-01-22 11:07, Almalexia wrote:

[...] Green weapons are inefficient.



How so? You are still doing the exact same thing as a hunter with elemental weapons. So what if you don't do the most damage in the party, the fact of the matter is things die fast enough as is. The color of your weapon and higher % do make a difference yes, but it isn't the end of the world.

Last I check my Attack button still worked with green weapons and I don't have to switch out for every other enemy I fight.

You are also forgetting one thing about Rangers and Forces, we use PP for every, single, little, action we can do. You can still attack when your weapon runs dry, what can a Ranger do?

We can wait for PP to recharge, fire of a shot or two and then wait again.

I have played melee classes as well you know, don't even start using PP as an excuse. You don't use your PA for every attack you do.

The moral of the story. Don't whine about elemental %'s like they are the end all, be all. Because you can still do damage with a low %, or even god forbid a neutral weapon. Stop whacking your e-peen and realize that your damage alone means nothing, it is the group effort that makes things go around.

I don't care if someone has a full plate of 50% weapons or if they have all green ones. The guy who isn't the asshat is the one I will be playing with.

[Fleur-de-Lis]

I'm thinking it probably depends on playstyle, as I find Force the easiest of the Basic Types: I make more money and can run higher-level missions earlier without trouble. Actually, I find Hunter most challenging of all, so if that's what you excel at, more power to you.

Come to think of it, maybe that's why I went Wartecher...

[Remedy]

On 2007-01-22 11:15, Weakness wrote:
Stop whacking your e-peen and realize that your damage alone means nothing, it is the group effort that makes things go around.I love you.

Now, can you tattoo that to Shimarisu's forehead for me?

[Almalexia]

On 2007-01-22 11:15, Weakness wrote:

On 2007-01-22 11:07, Almalexia wrote:

[...] Green weapons are inefficient.



How so? You are still doing the exact same thing as a hunter with elemental weapons. So what if you don't do the most damage in the party, the fact of the matter is things die fast enough as is. The color of your weapon and higher % do make a difference yes, but it isn't the end of the world.

Last I check my Attack button still worked with green weapons and I don't have to switch out for every other enemy I fight.

You are also forgetting one thing about Rangers and Forces, we use PP for every, single, little, action we can do. You can still attack when your weapon runs dry, what can a Ranger do?

We can wait for PP to recharge, fire of a shot or two and then wait again.

I have played melee classes as well you know, don't even start using PP as an excuse. You don't use your PA for every attack you do.

The moral of the story. Don't whine about elemental %'s like they are the end all, be all. Because you can still do damage with a low %, or even god forbid a neutral weapon. Stop whacking your e-peen and realize that your damage alone means nothing, it is the group effort that makes things go around.

I don't care if someone has a full plate of 50% weapons or if they have all green ones. The guy who isn't the asshat is the one I will be playing with.


Really I think you need to cool your jets with the generalizing. Your optimism with 'hunters are not gimped in damage regardless of color' is not looked down upon.

Player with elements doesn't equate to player being an asshat. Perhaps you've run into some bad fighters. There is a huge drop in damage with green weapons. Damage is everything to a fighter. When you're doing 500 with ice daggas and 350 with green daggas, you might understand.

[Almalexia]

And to throw this out there. Diga is a ground based tech. And yet it causes more damage to a ground based enemy than an thunder will. LOL, unfortunatly this fact does not apply to hunter weapons.

[Reiichi]

On 2007-01-22 11:15, Weakness wrote:
You don't use your PA for every attack you do.

I made a small lol there, because well, I do :<

Okay okay, just 98% of all attacks.

Carry more guns and I'll carry more 50% weapons, oh wait!



Forces start off tricky. Trying to aim foie or diga with a semi slow projectile and no lockon I'm sure gives a lot of new forces a bad first impression.

Then you go into radiga and realize hey I can hit 3 monsters at once now and the aiming is much easier.

Then you get that wtf aoe ice spell that totally gives me snow blindness and doesn't seem to even require aiming.

It takes a little bit to get used to but don't give up on it too soon. The introduction of buffs and debuffs added to the number of tasks a force has besides simply diga, resta, reverser.

I found that I enjoyed using a wand and a pistol as a newbie force. The pistol allows you to tag, but also to draw the aggro of a monster so that it will move in a straight line towards you (yay for monster AI). A target heading straight towards you is easier to hit. You can also backup while firing the pistol to give yourself more range before firing off another nuke.

[ljkkjlcm9]

As a Hunter, I do spam my PAs, in fact, if you party with me, you'll find that's basically all I do. At this point, I make most of my money on my player shop, so going to a recharge for 3k after getting 5k reward at the end of a missions is nothing. I'll spam through 18 weapons in a mission just to do the most damage with my fighgunner, of course, I'll also used ranged weapons that have a much longer lasting PP total. And every class has access to physical attack weapons.

THE JACKEL

[Weakness]

On 2007-01-22 11:37, Almalexia wrote:

Really I think you need to cool your jets with the generalizing. Your optimism with 'hunters are not gimped in damage regardless of color' is not looked down upon.

Player with elements doesn't equate to player being an asshat. Perhaps you've run into some bad fighters. There is a huge drop in damage with green weapons. Damage is everything to a fighter. When you're doing 500 with ice daggas and 350 with green daggas, you might understand.



I have played melee classes, so I do understand elements. But using numbers like 500 to 350 are a bit extreme. That is actually a 70% variance, so those numbers are never going to happen with daggers. The only thing I can honestly think that could reach extremes like that is an Axe.

A more realistic variance would be, say you are doing 200 per dagger hit. Now with a 50% weapon against a monster who is weak to it, you would get up to 300 yes. But do you have a straight plate of 50% elements? Look at the same thing now with a 20%. 240 per attack, opposed to 200.

Oh the horror. Just toss in an extra round of attacks and the same goal is accomplished.

My point is your individual damage numbers mean nothing. You should be more worried about the party then yourself.

I am not generalizing everyone who cares deeply about elements is an asshat, just a select few who insist on arguing it *cough*Shimarisu*cough*.

[Almalexia]

Worrying about how much damage you're doing and how much you should be doing is not being selfish in a party. I worry that my numbers are not enough for a party all the time. It only takes one to slow down a party.

And I didn't mean daggers. I spelled Daggus wrong. That was my example with the PA.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Almalexia on 2007-01-22 12:05 ]</font>

[Gazette]

Aye, guys, every job has their difficulties.
Ideally every hunter would have high % weapons, every ranger would have level'd bullets, and each FO wouldn't miss a shot or take near life-threatening damage with every hit.

Things is, that's never always the case.
Deal with it guys.

[Weakness]

On 2007-01-22 12:03, Almalexia wrote:
Worrying about how much damage you're doing and how much you should be doing is not being selfish in a party. I worry that my numbers are not enough for a party all the time. It only takes one to slow down a party.



But who is to say how much damage you should be doing? I say as long as you are helping out the party and everyone is moving at a decent pace there is no need to worry about such trivial matters.

Your numbers are helping the party no matter what. Every time you attack that mob dies faster then it would have if you weren't there. Regardless of how much you are doing, there is no "should be" in this game.

[Akaimizu]

Not to argue here, but I'm still wondering how Rangers were included in the *easy aiming* portion, when they have to aim just as much as the Forces do. The auto-targetting aspect only applies to hunter types, and hunter types alone. Going between Force and Ranger, I've had to excercise just as much aiming ability with each other. They both need strafe to do minor aiming adjustments.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-01-22 12:10 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-01-22 12:03, Almalexia wrote:
Worrying about how much damage you're doing and how much you should be doing is not being selfish in a party. I worry that my numbers are not enough for a party all the time. It only takes one to slow down a party.


The only thing that matters in terms of mission rank is not dying and not skipping mobs. Taking your time really doesn't count against you. Bruce's Dungeon is the only area where your damage output matters in terms of mission rank... even there it barely registers in comparison to teamwork and avoiding death, but it's worth saying because it's actually got non-zero importance as far as ranks go.

[N0LifeKing]

On 2007-01-22 11:52, Weakness wrote:

On 2007-01-22 11:37, Almalexia wrote:

Really I think you need to cool your jets with the generalizing. Your optimism with 'hunters are not gimped in damage regardless of color' is not looked down upon.

Player with elements doesn't equate to player being an asshat. Perhaps you've run into some bad fighters. There is a huge drop in damage with green weapons. Damage is everything to a fighter. When you're doing 500 with ice daggas and 350 with green daggas, you might understand.



I have played melee classes, so I do understand elements. But using numbers like 500 to 350 are a bit extreme. That is actually a 70% variance, so those numbers are never going to happen with daggers. The only thing I can honestly think that could reach extremes like that is an Axe.

A more realistic variance would be, say you are doing 200 per dagger hit. Now with a 50% weapon against a monster who is weak to it, you would get up to 300 yes. But do you have a straight plate of 50% elements? Look at the same thing now with a 20%. 240 per attack, opposed to 200.

Oh the horror. Just toss in an extra round of attacks and the same goal is accomplished.

My point is your individual damage numbers mean nothing. You should be more worried about the party then yourself.

I am not generalizing everyone who cares deeply about elements is an asshat, just a select few who insist on arguing it *cough*Shimarisu*cough*.



Finally someone who knows what they're talking about . I tried explaining this concept to ppl but they just dont get it. The extra 100dmg you get doesnt amount to anything when your in a party. You would need a full palette of 50% of the same element to see a noticeable difference. Unless you intend to solo you shouldnt be to overly concerned witha high percentage weapon.

As to reply to the OP getting the aim down takes a little getting use to but gets fairly easy after that. For me its juast as easy as playing with my hunter. When I'm not nuking everything to high hell and playing support I find it a bit more challenging trying to keep enemies debuffed party buffed and cast resta a tard hunters who you have to run into mobs and avoid getting just to save because they won't come to you.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: N0LifeKing on 2007-01-22 12:40 ]</font>

[Kichi]

Okui, I have to say this. My friend, as mentioned in my sig, was SOLOING Sleeping Warriors C at level 5, as a force. No help. Whatsoever. Sure, it took a LONG time, but he didn't die once. In fact, he rare even so much as took damage. I remember one run, he went through the first two bocks, and never got hit, not even once. He got hit once in the third block, and no hits taken on block 4.

My Hunter STILL can't do it that easily.

Basically, I REALLY have to disagree, in terms of soloing, at least. In a party, I've noted him having trouble getting in hits, and having trouble healing everyone. But if you plan on Soloing, Force is unparalleled.

[Jae]

I'm not going to get into all the peen flogging around here, but I will agree with Jackel. This game IS easy to play.

As for Forces, they are somewhat limited at first but are much more manageable later on. Just keep on playing and the range of your techs will grow. Keeping people buffed and healed is mindless once your support techs are 21+. Damaging things at the same time is likewise mindless once your attack techs have decent range. Play off of enemy weaknesses and just go to town.

Just have fun! It's a great class to play (even though Forces are as common as dirt).

[Rooroo]

In terms of stats building (ie, PA training, equipments, anything that has to do with modifying your stats, etc.), the hunter/melee class is probably harder than Fo/Ra classes, simply due to the fact that "good" stat weapons (high %) are difficult to obtain, and you often need many sets as well. This is slightly offset by the fact that PA training is by far easier than either Techinc or bullet training.

Now, having uber stats don't mean much if you can't hit the broad side of a barn. This is how well you can control your toon on the field. Both Ra/Hu classes are subject to "misses" based on stats. This is where the game randomly says "you missed" even though you've successfully landed the hit. Why? because when a beginner picks up the gamepad, it is a LOT easier to move, dodge, aim, hit the target due to the autolocking/autohoming feature. That isn't the case with the Fo classes. While Fo don't have to deal with random dice roll 'misses', Techs aiming is clumsy relative to how other classes work. There are still high level Fo/Fts out there who still can't figure out how to properly aim Ra-spells.

However, once you get past the 'learn to control' stage, most of the remaining time in the game, like any other mmo, will be spent on stats building. In that area, I do think Fo/Fts have it easier than other classes. Techs, while harder than PAs to train, are a bit easier than bullet training. Every synthed rod/wands is just as functional as any other.

[N0LifeKing]

On 2007-01-22 12:44, Kichi wrote:
Okui, I have to say this. My friend, as mentioned in my sig, was SOLOING Sleeping Warriors C at level 5, as a force. No help. Whatsoever. Sure, it took a LONG time, but he didn't die once. In fact, he rare even so much as took damage. I remember one run, he went through the first two bocks, and never got hit, not even once. He got hit once in the third block, and no hits taken on block 4.

My Hunter STILL can't do it that easily.

Basically, I REALLY have to disagree, in terms of soloing, at least. In a party, I've noted him having trouble getting in hits, and having trouble healing everyone. But if you plan on Soloing, Force is unparalleled.


This is true when you first start out but try soloing SW on S is alot different the enemies are faster and will mob any chance they get. Even using npc's as meat shields its still damn well impossible to solo. I dont try to solo the boss.

[Akaimizu]

Actually, Rangers have both the "you missed" and absolutely no autolocking/autohoming feature. So I don't think that is the reason.

[Witchblade56]

I like force alot more than i do say fighgunnner.

What i dont care for is all the work that went into leveling my buffs. Ive got jellen/zalure to 15 so far which is a decent tagging mechanism. It allows me to play freely with skilling up various techs.

Neat thing is with all my buffs @ 21 all the stuff i remember being super hard @ 35 is extremely easy. The speed and killing efficiency of the people in my party goes up alot.

[Rooroo]

On 2007-01-22 13:01, Akaimizu wrote:
Actually, Rangers have both the "you missed" and absolutely no autolocking/autohoming feature. So I don't think that is the reason.



Well, considering how fast bullet travels/activates, it's not really so much an issue. If the target is in front of you, you fire a shot, 99% of the time it'll hit. Not to mention the fact that you can move/strafe while attacking for some weapons. Aiming techs is closer to using Cannons or launchers at half speed. But yes aiming Techs become easier overtime since the hitboxes get a lot bigger. When you first start out though, aiming spells is stupidly clumsy compared to how intuitive other classes play.

[Ubersoldat]

On 2007-01-22 12:38, N0LifeKing wrote:

On 2007-01-22 11:52, Weakness wrote:

On 2007-01-22 11:37, Almalexia wrote:

Really I think you need to cool your jets with the generalizing. Your optimism with 'hunters are not gimped in damage regardless of color' is not looked down upon.

Player with elements doesn't equate to player being an asshat. Perhaps you've run into some bad fighters. There is a huge drop in damage with green weapons. Damage is everything to a fighter. When you're doing 500 with ice daggas and 350 with green daggas, you might understand.



I have played melee classes, so I do understand elements. But using numbers like 500 to 350 are a bit extreme. That is actually a 70% variance, so those numbers are never going to happen with daggers. The only thing I can honestly think that could reach extremes like that is an Axe.

A more realistic variance would be, say you are doing 200 per dagger hit. Now with a 50% weapon against a monster who is weak to it, you would get up to 300 yes. But do you have a straight plate of 50% elements? Look at the same thing now with a 20%. 240 per attack, opposed to 200.

Oh the horror. Just toss in an extra round of attacks and the same goal is accomplished.

My point is your individual damage numbers mean nothing. You should be more worried about the party then yourself.

I am not generalizing everyone who cares deeply about elements is an asshat, just a select few who insist on arguing it *cough*Shimarisu*cough*.



Finally someone who knows what they're talking about . I tried explaining this concept to ppl but they just dont get it. The extra 100dmg you get doesnt amount to anything when your in a party. You would need a full palette of 50% of the same element to see a noticeable difference. Unless you intend to solo you shouldnt be to overly concerned witha high percentage weapon.

As to reply to the OP getting the aim down takes a little getting use to but gets fairly easy after that. For me its juast as easy as playing with my hunter. When I'm not nuking everything to high hell and playing support I find it a bit more challenging trying to keep enemies debuffed party buffed and cast resta a tard hunters who you have to run into mobs and avoid getting just to save because they won't come to you.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: N0LifeKing on 2007-01-22 12:40 ]</font>


Both of you couldnt be more wrong about elemental damage. Best example: On Bruce B my full combo of Dus Daggas w/ 6* 44% dark spear hits a Kog Nadd 19 times for 700ish damage (1000 on crits) on each hit. A non-dark spear hits for about 500 per hit. Thats 13300 damage vs. 9500 per combo.

Now that may be about the most extreme circuimstance, and isn't a large amount putting it in spectrum with a 6-person party. Nonetheless, the point is that the damage adds up over time. Its about the differience of using buffs and not using buffs. Sure, the buffs dont seem like a large boost initially, but the full effect of them is measured throughout the level.

[SuperRygar]

once you figure out the movement of your enemy there is no excuse for missing with a tech, unless some thoughless hunter is PA bombing his 3rd combo hit and sending all the enemies flying around like a prick

[Weakness]

On 2007-01-22 15:10, Ubersoldat wrote:

Both of you couldnt be more wrong about elemental damage. Best example: On Bruce B my full combo of Dus Daggas w/ 6* 44% dark spear hits a Kog Nadd 19 times for 700ish damage (1000 on crits) on each hit. A non-dark spear hits for about 500 per hit. Thats 13300 damage vs. 9500 per combo.

Now that may be about the most extreme circuimstance, and isn't a large amount putting it in spectrum with a 6-person party. Nonetheless, the point is that the damage adds up over time. Its about the differience of using buffs and not using buffs. Sure, the buffs dont seem like a large boost initially, but the full effect of them is measured throughout the level.





My point still stands that the additional 2 seconds it takes to kill that monster isn't note worthy. Sure Bruce's Dungeon is timed, where you have to work to attain an S... but you can do that with a group of 5 people with neutral weapons that are well organized.

Never once did I say elements are worthless, I just said that they aren't as big of a deal as people make it out to be. I couldn't care less if I finish a mission in 20 minutes because of people with high percent weapons or 22 minutes because people weren't so obsessed with their e-peen.

I hate Bruce's Dungeon, the exp isn't worth the effort involved in finding a good set up. The MP is great, but I can just go do pretty much any S rank Neudaiz mission and get the same amount with less effort. Not to mention get more actual experience for the same time it takes to do Bruce's... and better drops.

Dealing with all the normal, untimed missions (even some that are) elements are a moot point. God forbid you don't get the chance to stroke your e-peen for doing more damage then anybody else.

...If I really wanted to dethrone you on that one I could just go land a level 4 SE and watch as you shrink though.

[Ubersoldat]

On 2007-01-22 15:20, Weakness wrote:

On 2007-01-22 15:10, Ubersoldat wrote:



My point still stands that the additional 2 seconds it takes to kill that monster isn't note worthy. Sure Bruce's Dungeon is timed, where you have to work to attain an S... but you can do that with a group of 5 people with neutral weapons that are well organized.

Never once did I say elements are worthless, I just said that they aren't as big of a deal as people make it out to be. I couldn't care less if I finish a mission in 20 minutes because of people with high percent weapons or 22 minutes because people weren't so obsessed with their e-peen.

I hate Bruce's Dungeon, the exp isn't worth the effort involved in finding a good set up. The MP is great, but I can just go do pretty much any S rank Neudaiz mission and get the same amount with less effort. Not to mention get more actual experience for the same time it takes to do Bruce's... and better drops.

Dealing with all the normal, untimed missions (even some that are) elements are a moot point. God forbid you don't get the chance to stroke your e-peen for doing more damage then anybody else.

...If I really wanted to dethrone you on that one I could just go land a level 4 SE and watch as you shrink though.



If by "stroking your e-peen" you mean "doing my job to the best of my ability", then yeah I guess I'm guilty of that. Its not about who does the most damage, its about not letting my team-mates down by doing my job (dealing damage) to its maximum extent.

But I guess you must use 6* ungridned weapons, because that extra damage doesnt matter in the grand scheme, right?

[Almalexia]

Your point has been well made Weakness. My final word on the matter is many hunters believe they need have elements attached to thier weapons, it has nothing to do with e-peen stroking or doing more damage than someone else. Going in an area with monsters that have elements that your arsenal lacks an opposing element in, brings about some worry.

That is just the way it is.

Anyway, I'm going to try the force scene again. . tommorow but I'm going to do something different. I'm gonna try the gun/wand route and for now use rods for resta cause of the PP.

[Weakness]

On 2007-01-22 15:43, Ubersoldat wrote:

If by "stroking your e-peen" you mean "doing my job to the best of my ability", then yeah I guess I'm guilty of that. Its not about who does the most damage, its about not letting my team-mates down by doing my job (dealing damage) to its maximum extent.

But I guess you must use 6* ungridned weapons, because that extra damage doesnt matter in the grand scheme, right?



By stroking your e-peen I mean being overly obsessed with you DPS. Honestly being there is good enough. And for the most part grinding melee weapons is pretty worthless outside of PP. The whole extra 20 damage you gain getting a dagger to +5 isn't worth the risk of losing the weapon.

In terms of Ranged weapons and Casting weapons it is a little bit different seeing as they actually do something.

And no, I don't use 6* weapons. For the most part you are gimping yourself to begin with unless it is +7~10, which really isn't worth the ATA loss when you can go out and get an 8 or 9* weapon with the same (or slightly less) ATP then the pain and trial of grinding a weapon, but also has twice the ATA.

And as far as melee 6*'s go, you do realize that A ranks have a slight advantage because they swing faster right? Go fret over your DPS going down from your grinded 6* over your slightly faster 9*.

The additional damage gained from elemental %'s is mostly a moot point. You still do damage without them. This is a fast paced game, noticing something dying three seconds faster is asinine.

This isn't FF XI, your DPS isn't the be all end all. Forgive me for not wanting to go through the whole WAR/NIN onry parties. In this game I can go with anyone else I care to and still complete the same mission as you can with your perfect set up.

Percents don't make or break a melee. Normal missions aren't timed, so your additional damage is going to waste. Even if you claim it to be for the good of the party, it is for yourself.

Do you honestly think that ForteTecher in your party gives two shits that you can do a few more damage then the other guy?

[Reiichi]

Not using an element on your weapon is like not using an element on your bullets. I mean really, you still kill stuff right? And you even save PP too! (less consumed) Why even painstakingly level up your elemental bullets? Oh that's right, you want to be a team player. You trap, you SE 4. Hunters kill, and that's about all they can do, besides being a headache for a force. The only thing we can do is come prepared with appropriate armors and appropriate weapons. Doing damage happens to be the hunters job. If we are doing crap damage, we might as well be a ranger firing green bullets.

Saying damge doesn't matter for a hunter is like saying status effects don't matter for a ranger. I think I hear enough of them complain about how slow it is to level their rifle bullets, but they try as best as they can anyways.

[Ubersoldat]

On 2007-01-22 15:58, Weakness wrote:

On 2007-01-22 15:43, Ubersoldat wrote:


Percents don't make or break a melee. Normal missions aren't timed, so your additional damage is going to waste. Even if you claim it to be for the good of the party, it is for yourself.

Do you honestly think that ForteTecher in your party gives two shits that you can do a few more damage then the other guy?



Actually, they do make or break the weapon, as shop prices will show. Honostly I really can't belive you're arguing that they dont matter.

If you had a weapon that did 36 to 50% more damage than another weapon, are you saying you wouldnt use the stronger of the two?

Okay, I'm done. If you can't get the "omg omg omg dps" chip off your shoulder, I dont think this discussion is going to get anywhere.

[Weakness]

On 2007-01-22 16:08, Ubersoldat wrote:

Actually, they do make or break the weapon, as shop prices will show. Honostly I really can't belive you're arguing that they dont matter.

If you had a weapon that did 36 to 50% more damage than another weapon, are you saying you wouldnt use the stronger of the two?

Okay, I'm done. If you can't get the "omg omg omg dps" chip off your shoulder, I dont think this discussion is going to get anywhere.



I need to go through and highlight all the times when I said, "I never said that percents don't make a difference."

My quarrel is with the idea that they make so much difference that you are gimp short having the best of the best.

And as far as the 36% and the 50% goes, I would end up with the 36% because I am not paying 20 million for that extra damage that doesn't make that big of a difference in your average party.

And to the guy who was talking about green bullets. If you hadn't noticed most rangers don't bother with elements at all. We are either shooting purple, red, and on occasion blue. Why? Because we don't do damage, we have SE's. Comparing Infection/Burn for 1200 a tick on big mobs, to your additional 20 damage per swing is... just nevermind.

I give up. My point will never be understood.

Percents are nice, but not needed. As long as you keep up to date equipment you are helpful to a party. This is a game revolved around fast paced action and grinding. And as long as you don't take things to extremes you are helpful in a party.

Is that clear enough for people?

[rena-ko]

topic failed to move anywhere. thus i'll relock it again. this time there wont be an unlock option.
thanks for your cooperation.