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View Full Version : Guntechers after the last few updates how do you feel



hidareju
Jan 31, 2007, 10:27 AM
Let me start out by saying that I am a lvl 48 guntecher, I have attained rank 2 almost rank 3 now and I have a few questions out there since we have enough updates to have most of the spells we can use effectively.

1. How is your damage doing?

I am using now all rank A 8-9* weapons now focusing on Bows and Twin Handguns with Attack/Accuracy Up buffs with a bit of backup healing. I also went with the Mega/ Knight unit for some ATP and ATA.

With my primary bullets being at or near lvl 20 I see consistantly now 100-120 per twin gun shot on none elemental weak enemies and over 130-140 on the right ones. These are on the mid sized or smaller enemies, it drops to 60-80 on the big guys.

My Bows on the other hand being a heavy slow shooter does about 300-400 per hit on mid sized guys and about 180 on the big boys.

Now I know I got about 10-12 lvls of bullet inprovement ahead of me but my twin gun status effects are already maxed. I only got one more lvl on a few of my Bow bullets to get the lvl 4 effect on most of them.

But I see HUGE damage numbers from people lower in lvl than me with PA's that were a lot easier to raise than mine it seems.

I got the patience to wait it out but I was looking for an idea of what I have to look forward to.

Any info would be greatly appriciated. Thanks

Akaimizu
Jan 31, 2007, 10:33 AM
You'll have to get used to it. Guntechers are sooo not a damage class, and there's little that they can do to make that much different. Needless to say, even with Maxed bullets in some guns, you're not going to see great damage. Pretty much every gun we're especially good at, is fairly weak in execution. The Laser cannon being a joke as it can only status effect the first monster it hits, even if you hit a group with it.

To tell the truth, the Burn status effect and the Infect Status Effect is about the *only* way you'll see some real damage from the class. Also, you'll have to deal with having fairly poor all around defense. Oddly enough, the defense is built around basing much of your ability to stay alive, in how well you actually dodge around the room. S-ranks are typically not your friend, with hardly any ability to solo high level stuff without help. This is only because the speed and ferocity of which the monsters attack, on those levels, throws up 100% impossible to dodge scenarios too often. Hit boxes of creatures too large for your top running speeds to deal with and make an attack even with the more mobile weapons. A good striking PM is what you'll need for Mad Creatures S, and a decent party for any other S. You'll be able to do better than that once you've maxed your class level to 10.

Still, you are primarily in a support *only* class and one of the most highly technical ones to play well. It's also very expensive, so if you do some of the hard stuff with too few people, you'll cough up thousands. Half the fun is working hard and thinking well to do your best for the party. If you want to solo, you picked one of the 2 main classes that are not good at it.

Welcome to one of the new truly advanced classes. Doing well with it, is a great feeling, mainly because you know how much butt, you're really kicking, in order to make your mark. On the other hand, you're doing well with buffs and debuffs. You can work well with forces by using techs they decide not to use, in a particular level so that the whole party is powered up. True enough, at times, you feel like you're mainly riding on everybody elses' ability to do damage; but don't let that sway you from supporting any way you can.

I plan on taking Guntecher all the way to the finish. It's kind of cool. I basically play the Guntecher to fill whatever Ranger and Force role is currently needed at any given second. A very Schizophrenic type of play, but I feel that's where they do best. (Which almost makes me wish we had an overhead view possibility, so we can take a tactical view instead of constantly moving around and taking mental notes on everybody's current position)

It really feels like the way Forces were, on the Dreamcast version 1.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-01-31 07:55 ]</font>

_Deliverance_
Jan 31, 2007, 11:17 AM
Yeah, don't expect monster physical damage from any tech hybrid. Lend the support where you can, and be sure to work on weakening the mobs with status effects. It makes the damage dealers jobs that much more efficient. _That_ is where you will shine the most. People will notice.

hidareju
Jan 31, 2007, 11:43 AM
Ok then this is how I see my role.

By order of importance

1. Status effects from shots.
2. Buffs/backup healing
3. Damage

But now I have a small issue on my status effects, High spell level forces can also do a lot of status effects too? Also they can spam area effect spells with status effects too. I guess nothing is perfect.

foamcup
Jan 31, 2007, 12:31 PM
On 2007-01-31 08:43, hidareju wrote:
Ok then this is how I see my role.

By order of importance

1. Status effects from shots.
2. Buffs/backup healing
3. Damage

But now I have a small issue on my status effects, High spell level forces can also do a lot of status effects too? Also they can spam area effect spells with status effects too. I guess nothing is perfect.



Yeah, we can do status effect, but you do it better. One place we really suck on the SE is with Mute. Ra- and gidiga do not mute, and diga is slow as hell for trying to mute the Armed Servants in Grove of Fanatics, or any other tech casting mob for that matter. If you had an earth shotgun or earth mechgun, that would help out a whole lot with shutting the various mobs up so they can't cast.

Deja
Jan 31, 2007, 01:10 PM
Use crossbows, with the right buffs and debuffs I hit 600 per shot. Of course most of the time I hit 540, but both are respectable numbers. Sometimes I hit 600 three times before the hunter can even reach the enemy, all while burning, infecting, or freezing. If you want respectable damage off a guntecher, lvl up some crossbows.

Akaimizu
Jan 31, 2007, 01:14 PM
I'm currently trying to afford my first one. It'll cost me 75,000 (cheapest price), but it'll be worth it. It'll be a while before I have multiples of those.

Considering what the highest A rank Twin Gun would cost, and due to comparable damage and the fact that Crossbows get a higher SE, you wonder why people even bother selling Twin Guns so high.

Deja
Jan 31, 2007, 01:33 PM
They sell them so high because Fighgunners gobble them up. They are awesome on Fighgunners, great damage, SE2, and ranged combat. They are so-so on guntechers, using a bow or crossbow is better in many situations.

Gothica
Jan 31, 2007, 01:53 PM
Even with the subpar damage and a "support" role I'm pretty damn proud to be a Guntecher. There aren't many like me. And what I lack I make up for it in other ways. True I can't solo that well, nor would I be able to function properly in a S rank Mission. But I chose my job because I enjoy it. *shrug* And if I really want to melee, or be a "norm" I'll level my beast to be a fortefighter.

hidareju
Jan 31, 2007, 02:00 PM
Biggest problem I have right now is lvling too many bullets, I plan to take 6 twin gun bullets to 30 (Fire, Ice, Plasma, Earth, Dark, Light)

Then I plan to take 5 Bow shot to 30 as well (same elements minus Plasma)

That is 11 arts right there, Throw in 2 handgun, 2 Mechgun, one Knife art for soloing, 4 technics, 2 Laser cannon, that is 22 arts right there. All of the bullet arts are slow as christmas to raise especially the Bow and laser cannons ones.

I am also looking at Cards as a possible weapon. And if I ever want to lvl another advanced job I have to leave room open for more PAs. Lvling another 6 for crossbow could take forever.

The big question I guess is I should map out exactly what bullets I will raise since I can not have them all for every weapon.

Thank you all for your information.

Deja
Jan 31, 2007, 02:03 PM
Just focus on one crossbow, go with shock. Once that baby hits 21 I doubt you'll put it down. You shock EVERYTHING in the room in a matter of seconds.

Akaimizu
Jan 31, 2007, 02:11 PM
That's pretty much what I plan for the Crossbow. Picking one good art for it, at first. Something, like the shock. I'll leave the real high damage SE techs to the Twin Guns and the SE4 weapons (rifle/bow). I started off on a similar plan as you, getting about 6 different Elements for the Twin Guns (as I did plan on using them as a primary utilitarian source of combat). You'll see a lot more of the general grunt and tough grunt-level folks than the big guys to keep their use.

I'm still a bit mixed on levelling the Ground for my SE4 weapons. I'm doing it, but I think Sega somehow made monsters especially resistant to Silence, for no apparent reason. It's like burning, freezing, or Infecting them works 3 times as often and lasts 3 times as long. I'd love to silence big beasts. Stopping the megid or high level dark/freeze techs would be an incredible party-helper. If they just let us do it. I'm mainly doing it with the hope that the future will improve their use.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-01-31 11:13 ]</font>

juno-6
Jan 31, 2007, 02:11 PM
Level 58/ level 5 guntecher.

How I feel? A LOT BETTER and soley due to the de-buff technics.

I play the job exactly as Akaimizu described, like a schitzo with twitchy hands and eyes constantly checking on everything around me. And I did used to occasionally feel like deadweight before this last update because a fortegunner could spread status effects just as good BUT also deal damage and we were so not made to be the main healers in a party. But damn does Defense down and Accuracy/Evasion down make me feel like im constantly doing something useful and not only speeding the mission up but making it easier for everyone else.

Anyways, guntechers have the 3rd lowest ATP so your job should be spreading Status Effects, De-buffing mobs, and back-up Healing. If you want Damage numbers though, do what was said earlier and make sure you have burn/infect @21+ and @ Lv4.

...its a thankless job:P



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-01-31 11:16 ]</font>

shewby
Jan 31, 2007, 02:17 PM
GT do decent damage with Twin Handguns when you consider that they are constantly hitting the enemy since they can adjust to its distance and position faster than hunter and force classes.

Also, I think Cards > Crossbows. At least in my experience. Crossbow range seems shorter than handguns. Cards will hit enemies much farther away than you think they will. You will also have fewer errant shots with cards. Sometimes you can miss with crossbows and only apply all 3 hits if you are close to the enemy. Cards level easier. They have higher accuracy. They are also friggin strong. With lvl 30 ice I can hit a Vanda for about 315 x 3= 945. If I get a crit (good chance with a GT) it's easily over 1,000. Not too shabby for a left handed weapon. Crossbows do have their advantages though (lvl 3 SE) so I'm going to start lvling some since my cards are nearly maxed.

juno-6
Jan 31, 2007, 02:23 PM
Gothica - You have a place in S rank missions. Your status effects are exactly the same as a fortegunner and de-buffing monsters makes S missions a lot faster and easier.

DonRoyale
Jan 31, 2007, 02:27 PM
Guntechers are a support class, not a damage class. =

You're supposed to slap SE4's left and right and debuff/heal. Damage is nice, but it's not Guntecher's primary function.

Gothica
Jan 31, 2007, 03:37 PM
<3 Juno. But for that to actually work, I'd have to be the leader. So no one would kick me from random parties that I join.

I'm only level 36 so I haven't attempted to do S rank missions yet. Not until I get my bullets fully leveled. And yea, there is a lot of things I have to level. Plus, cards, crossbows and my staff PA's. That is a lot to do only to be squeezed into a support role. Seems like we work harder to be good at we do compared to other classes. No not trying to start a debate. With melee, its easy to spam your dagger PA's to max. And it is the same for the forces too from my prospective. But if I'm wrong sorry its just my opinion.

Ledin
Jan 31, 2007, 03:51 PM
What the folks before me said.

I'd like to add the following: Crossbows are a must-have for every Guntecher, in my humble opinion. They have an almost handgun firing rate, do more damage than one bullet from Twin Handguns (meaning they easily outdamage them with their 3 bullets), and apply level 3 status effects. Crossbow at 21+ is the Ranger equivalent of Twin Dagger/Spear PA spam (pre-patch anyway). And let's not forget that Guntechers get access to S-rank crossbows but only A-rank cards. It's true that you have to get up close for the full effect, but you will have to do that anyway in order to debuff enemies or heal your Hunter comrades.

Also, I used to equip a Hard / Power Charge and was able to do damage on par with Fortegunners using the same weapons as me. However, I also had to use 5-10 Photon Charges, occasionally I even resorted to recharging at the field lobby. It was just getting too much of a hassle (not to mention expensive) and I found myself using the weapons that had some PP left instead of the ones that were most suitable for the current situation, so I parted with the unit. I'm now using a Giga / Bullet PP Save and I'm absolutely satisfied with it. Moral of the story: Your first priority should be support -- do not compromise that in favor of higher damage numbers.

Good luck with Guntecher! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ledin on 2007-01-31 12:56 ]</font>

Akaimizu
Jan 31, 2007, 03:51 PM
You're pretty close. If you aren't right, Gothica, it is up to a very close debate. People can argue all they want, but I would guess it would come from arguments from people who never clearly *stepped into someone else's' shoes*. I've seen enough arguments here, from people with that same mentality.

I've actually had good practice going between the classes and definitely find this one to be right in the upper echelon of tough-to-play classes. I tend to keep my weapon-list quite optimized and seem to play with every ounce of strategy I can find, from the engine, to do it. The thing is, it's so incredibly satisfying when you find the combination that so works.

Maybe that's why I tended to seriously favor the Force in PSO. I get attracted to highly technical classes, and ones that must alter their role *realtime* during combat. Forces still have those options now, but there's something just *special* when you have to constantly shift your entire mentality, which is apparent when you have to *think* like particular force types and then rethink your way back to a Ranger class. I guess it's because I'm way too familiar with the Force strategies that they are all just 1 overall strategy to me, now. 800-1000 PSO hours, as one, might be the reason.

Still, I do kind of miss the days where I could laugh at being hit by a technique.

Akaimizu
Jan 31, 2007, 03:55 PM
Thanks Ledin. I was really debating on the PP save aspect, or going with Power. It's always a tough choice because only experience teaches you what is better. I mean, with More damage you tend to use less PP, but it's really tough to calculate how much PP reduction will overpower the damage modifier.

I think I'll start with the PP save. Because, as you say, it's better for the Status Effecter to *use* more bullets, without a recharge, than to hit harder. Our guns should act like the energizer bunny.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-01-31 13:01 ]</font>

Syl
Jan 31, 2007, 04:06 PM
Well I just posted a REALLLY long post and i got an IE error...

So this time it will be short but sweet.

As a lvl 54 GT 6, I can say we are a very wanted class. Not every GT does the GT role (i.e. they only use rifles and handguns/sabers). But they should be able to do whatever they want...

Hm, currently i love cards. I have 2 lvl 30 BAs (ice and dark). They do some awesome damage to their respective opposites (25% element at lvl 21). Virus deals out a nice 500~ dmg per click. Cards are good for handing out status effects cause for one, they hardly miss both because of the good ATA (well for casts at least) and the fact that as long as you have a target the card will target it till it dies. I have done +1300 dmg (w/ 2 crits mind you) on an opposite element enemy before so its all good.

Bows are great for handing out SEs from a distance. They get lvl 4 SEs and that's good and dandy. Bows also have awesome ATP which can make it easier for the lack of ATP GTs have.

But it's not about damage first, it's about SEs and being able to be like the ultimate support class. I played FO in PSO and I just loved it. For some reason, GT attracts me the way FO did in PSO.

I can agree that lvling our PAs is hard. We have to get bows, xbows, twins, cards, etc all lvled before they become good at SEs. It takes patience and it's worth it. I just wish ppl were more appreciative of our abilities. Not a lot of people appreciate SEs and the fact that you can heal and buff/debuff as well but like someone said

"It's a thankless job"

That sums it up best. At least you'll be proud that you are of great help to the party http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Ledin
Jan 31, 2007, 07:31 PM
On 2007-01-31 13:06, WatchThemFeed wrote:
Not a lot of people appreciate SEs and the fact that you can heal and buff/debuff as well but like someone said

"It's a thankless job"

That sums it up best. At least you'll be proud that you are of great help to the party http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
With a 2161 damage per tick infection on Seed Vance in HIVE S you will be outdamaging even the best Fortefighter. I'm aware there are a lot of players who don't realize just how useful status effects are, but the good ones will appreciate it -- even if they don't express it.

Deja
Jan 31, 2007, 08:54 PM
Yeah, just imagine 6 Guntechers/Fortegunners with lvl 21 crossbows mowing through a level. Talk about ownage. I always wanted to set that up. In fact we should, post here if you are interested lol.

Blanky
Jan 31, 2007, 09:00 PM
On 2007-01-31 17:54, Deja wrote:
Yeah, just imagine 6 Guntechers/Fortegunners with lvl 21 crossbows mowing through a level. Talk about ownage. I always wanted to set that up. In fact we should, post here if you are interested lol.




Weeeeeell I did just get my Yak Megiga to 21. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

DanMalak
Jan 31, 2007, 09:58 PM
On 2007-01-31 07:27, hidareju wrote:
Let me start out by saying that I am a lvl 48 guntecher, I have attained rank 2 almost rank 3 now and I have a few questions out there since we have enough updates to have most of the spells we can use effectively.

1. How is your damage doing?

I am using now all rank A 8-9* weapons now focusing on Bows and Twin Handguns with Attack/Accuracy Up buffs with a bit of backup healing. I also went with the Mega/ Knight unit for some ATP and ATA.

With my primary bullets being at or near lvl 20 I see consistantly now 100-120 per twin gun shot on none elemental weak enemies and over 130-140 on the right ones. These are on the mid sized or smaller enemies, it drops to 60-80 on the big guys.

My Bows on the other hand being a heavy slow shooter does about 300-400 per hit on mid sized guys and about 180 on the big boys.

Now I know I got about 10-12 lvls of bullet inprovement ahead of me but my twin gun status effects are already maxed. I only got one more lvl on a few of my Bow bullets to get the lvl 4 effect on most of them.

But I see HUGE damage numbers from people lower in lvl than me with PA's that were a lot easier to raise than mine it seems.

I got the patience to wait it out but I was looking for an idea of what I have to look forward to.

Any info would be greatly appriciated. Thanks


I am 3 guntecher and lvl 57, my set up is 5 cards and wands, and 1 bow. I have 2 wands for shifta and deband, reiter, and zodial, and the rest resta, and revser. and heal about 450-500 per resta. Now as of damage, I ALWAYS use cards, and hit about 200 per, and shoot 3 at a time, so about 600 per hit, and 50-80ish on big guys. my bow hits about 400-500. Even though I know I dont do much damage compared to hunter types, its still good enough to solo some missions specially with resta. And with a fortetecher in I dont have to worry about resta'ing or buffs which lets me do almost as much as a fortefighter/figunner while not getting hit.

PsyGuy
Feb 1, 2007, 03:41 AM
Guntecher is a cool class, a little TOO good in my opinion what with lvl 30 bullets etc i do think it should have been the other way around though with wartecher being the more aggressive class in terms of stats. The fact you get quite a few more S rank equips than us wartechers peeves me aswell.

However, if you play a guntecher (as i have) and you are the only "mage" character in the field for some reason people automatically expect/demand you to constantly heal and buff them. Which In all honesty when playing a wartecher isnt a big deal as your usually right there next to them in the fray and have quite a range with your spells, however when a guntecher is on the other side of the area with our limited spell field range i find the majority of the time im forced to charge headlong into the fray, clamber over a kog nagg or two, chasing a supposed expert Fortefighter who wont stand still, doesnt know how to use a monomate and doesnt even bother thank me for my efforts!!! Thats aside from the fact in the time said act of bravery took me the team have polished off all the monsters and i didnt even land a hit on about half of them!!

Aside from that the class is great (flomps)

Retsuya
Feb 1, 2007, 07:32 AM
crossbow and a casting weapon together sounds good
but I preffer lv4 SE bullet with a LongBOW

Guntechers are very good with status effects
guntechers specialties are:
SE
Buff/debuffs
longrange
both riffle and bow bullets when it reaches lv21 has lv4 SE

I'm planning on equiping two bows Alteri and Tengoh
and get save shot PP. With guntech's pp recovery bonus plus tengoh's pp recovery and with a save pp unit; what does that give you? more bullets =)

hidareju
Feb 1, 2007, 01:35 PM
So how does the debuffing work with our low TP and capped Technic lvl at 10? I though they scale up and stick related to those two items.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hidareju on 2007-02-01 10:39 ]</font>

BahnKnakyu
Feb 1, 2007, 01:41 PM
No. Buffs/debuffs only get better at 11 and 21. Level 10 buffs/debuffs are the same as level 1 buffs/debuffs. Because of that TP does not matter, so stock up on wands that have lots of PP (read: Yohmei wands).

hidareju
Feb 1, 2007, 01:46 PM
So how are they stick for you guys? Like I said I thought that you needed more TP to get them to stick better. Of course I could be wrong and they stick by some other method.

Akaimizu
Feb 1, 2007, 01:52 PM
They stick reasonably well.

I noticed the debuffs, even without much levelling, seem to stick to monsters quite well. Enough for people to really hurt them. A full party will normally kill everything that is debuffed before it can run out.

The Buffs, on the other hand, obviously would stick better with 11 or 21 techs, but fortunately they made even the lowest duration of them a good number.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-02-01 10:53 ]</font>

hidareju
Feb 1, 2007, 01:57 PM
Ok so it sounds like I need to think about at least one wand for debuffs, looks like Def down/accuracy down are the two big ones on my list or should I go with the attack down one?

Deja
Feb 1, 2007, 02:01 PM
I have 5 crossbow/wand combos on my pallete, and I have three 6* Tenora wands grinded to 6 for resta/reverser. The best TP is needed for resta.

I then have 8 and 9 star Yohmei wands for Buffs/debuffs (6* yohmei will work fine too). If you are the only force (50% of the time you are), you need to cast at least 1500 PP points worth of buffs and debuffs per run.

Get the best TP wands for resta, and the best PP wands for buffs/debuffs, and then SPAM crossbow bullets like it's your job (and it is since you are a guntecher).

Akaimizu
Feb 1, 2007, 02:18 PM
On 2007-02-01 10:57, hidareju wrote:
Ok so it sounds like I need to think about at least one wand for debuffs, looks like Def down/accuracy down are the two big ones on my list or should I go with the attack down one?



Those are good ones to start. Very utilitarian, and can work in most cases. The Attack Down one is actually highly useful for those mid-boss or big guys who rely on melee for insane amounts of damage compared to their class. For instance, there's one particular Cave run with a Bill Da Veer(sp?) at the end. Defense down is good to use, but Attack down will ruin him. His best move is his PA, which is sort of a tornado PA that does really high amounts of damage. Without healing intervention, a B-rank version of him can even destroy a level 63 Partner Machine, with defense up on her, with just one of them. I don't have to tell you the wreck he can put on regular hunters. Attack Down is one easy way to ruin his day, since the status effect is guarranteed once you cast it. He'll turn from potential hunter killer to relative weakling in moments. Hunters will thank you for it. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-02-01 11:24 ]</font>

hidareju
Feb 1, 2007, 02:29 PM
My big issue is that I do not want more than 3 wands on my pallet since I want to keep using twin guns/Bows for status effects and damage. So I am looking at 2 buffs Attack/Accuracy up, 2 debuffs Attack/Def down, and Resta/whatever in the last.

So that leaves 3 slots for some Twin gun/bows or even a laser cannon if I ever get my bullets up high enough.

I am looking into Crossbows/Cards now but I have only so many PA slots to use. I think I have 6-8 left. Plus I now see I need to get 2 debuffs. I kinda wish we could have a few more slots now.

panzer_unit
Feb 1, 2007, 02:34 PM
If you're looking to save space, instead of a wand with buffs you can have a macro suggesting your teammates buy the agatride/zodaride consumables. Since they're equivalent to the lv21+ tech effect.

I also suggest replacing "whatever" with Reverser on your healing-stick. If anything, it's actually the more important spell in a tight situation. At the very least it frees your teammate for eating a trimate (which is a better heal) and dodging out of further damage.

Akaimizu
Feb 1, 2007, 02:39 PM
I definitely understand. I have yet to convert to a 3 Wand user, but that's also because I'm on the verge of getting my crossbow. Once I get that, I'll be all about 3 wands. To use Twin Handguns, I've found that it was necessary for me to carry 2 of them. I carry 1 bow, so that's all my slots there.

Bullets will take you some time. I single bullet to 30, on twin handguns, actually takes approximately 80 hours of actual use. That's a heck of a lot of time to invest. Some have taken the somewhat faster approach, by not going to 30, but raising multiple bullets to 21. As of right now, Silence seems to be the weakest of the group. In writing, and by stats, it looks great; but somehow the coding team invoked an unwritten aspect that monsters are super resistant to silence, and it even lasts a rediculously short time once you land it, compared to the others. A bug perhaps? I'm not sure. But until they change it, it really does feel like spending 80 hours to max silence bullets is so not paying off. You live and learn.

There's another thing, I also payed attention to, last night. If you're in a place with element neutral monsters, when you plan to use Burn and/or Infect; take special notice to the handguns and techs your partymembers use. Various people will favor certain handgun bullets (particularly if they are not of a Ranger-type class) and/or techniques. If you notice them using a lot of ice, they made the decision for you. That's a cue to switch to Dark bullets since Frozen and Infect effects stack.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-02-01 11:47 ]</font>

Deja
Feb 1, 2007, 02:46 PM
If you are looking for the best damage/SE gun, crossbow is it. That, or cards if you want SE2 and more element % than the SE3 of crossbow. Seriously, you just need one bow on your pallete for SE4, and then spam crossbows on all the rest of the monster spawn.

Oh, and you can delete PAs once you hit the max 36 PAs. I can erase like 5-6 spells when I was a force, and some hunter PAs, but I havent hit 36 yet.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Deja on 2007-02-01 11:47 ]</font>

chibiLegolas
Feb 1, 2007, 05:04 PM
A bit Off topic, but once you reached over 36 PA's and need to erase them, are they gone for good? Or do they somehow comeback at the lvl you left off, once you relearn the PA from a newly bought disc again?

Back on topic:
So far, it seems guntechers prefer the longbow compared to the rifle. Why? I was planning to go through to lvl 21+ bullets on rifles cause it's a staple for rangers. That and it's SE4.
Longbows are prettier and have SE4 also, but I assume you can only fire with it in 1st person view? Unlike the rifle which lets you attack in both normal and FPS mode?

And I was planning to go to bullets lvl21+ on my pistols as well. SE3, left handed, and ability to straif makes it really worthwhile for me.
But the crossbow seems to also go to SE3, AND you can hit 3 targets at lvl21+?
Seems superior to pistols. Is it really? Any reason why I should continue leveling my pistols? If so, can you still straif with the crossbow like you do with pistols?

In close combat conditions for my debuffs, I find it ESSENTIAL that I can maneuver arround enemies and their attacks/spells. I think I've seen straif'n with cards. So that too is an option. But SE2 is turning me off. Plus crossbows are ideal for tagging.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for any help.
~From an up coming Acolyte GunTecher



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-02-01 14:06 ]</font>

Syanaide
Feb 1, 2007, 05:13 PM
You can fire in normal view with bows.
Bows level much faster than rifles and have armor penetration, rifles fire faster though level slower. For me it came down to the fact that bows just look a lot cooler.

Don't level handgun bullets for your offhand, go crossbow instead, it hits up the 3 targets SE3 at +21, and yes, you can strafe with crossbow.

Akaimizu
Feb 1, 2007, 05:14 PM
The cheapest you can get Crossbows are about 75000, which is only 5,000 off the list price. But until more people stock them, and there's real competiton, that's the price you have to get.

Regular handguns will generally be not worth investing SE into, but you might keep one around simply as a box opener.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-02-01 14:16 ]</font>

Schubalts
Feb 1, 2007, 05:16 PM
On 2007-02-01 14:04, chibiLegolas wrote:

Back on topic:
So far, it seems guntechers prefer the longbow compared to the rifle. Why? I was planning to go through to lvl 21+ bullets on rifles cause it's a staple for rangers. That and it's SE4.
Longbows are prettier and have SE4 also, but I assume you can only fire with it in 1st person view? Unlike the rifle which lets you attack in both normal and FPS mode?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-02-01 14:06 ]</font>



Well, bows will pierce the target's defense. Meaning, you'll do the same damage to every monster (except for bosses, buffed monsters, and mini-boss monsters), regardless of its level; the damage is based entirely on your stats and your bow.

And bows can be fired in normal view, and first-person view.

chibiLegolas
Feb 1, 2007, 05:42 PM
Ok. Thanks for the info.
Still more questions about rifles vs. longbows:
If guntechers shouldn't concentrate on damage and just purely SE4, is the rifle's superior firing rate make up for lack of def penetration + atp + leveling speed?

Just trying to understand why Sega gave us rifles if bows are clearly better. AND longbows are available to forces. Why give the superior long range weapons to FO's as well?

Ledin
Feb 1, 2007, 07:28 PM
Copy/pasted from a post I made in another thread (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=134136&forum=22) (dedicated to the bow vs. rifle debate):

BOW: Higher ATA, higher elemental damage, ignores defense (will be even more useful in S2 missions; also means you can shoot De Ragan anywhere except tail and do full damage), PA levels much faster.

RIFLE: Faster firing rate (equates faster SE application -- which would be the main reason why you would use a stationary weapon as a Guntecher anyway), bigger range.
Both have advantages, as the posters before me pointed out. In the end it's a matter of personal opinion and style.

SolomonGrundy
Feb 1, 2007, 07:46 PM
Backing up NPCs as a guntecker cannot be overlooked. If you are considering solo play then I daresay that guntecker is better than Fortefighter, or forte gunner. Reverser needs to be applied more than 10 times in a run (sol atomizers), and start atomizers do not grow on trees.

Newman GTs can even become megids immune at higher levels.

Ryo_Hayasa
Feb 1, 2007, 08:24 PM
My secondary Character i sa GunTecher. So i was wondering, what are some MUST-have techs and bullets for that class? This character is a newman, I was also wondering how affective is a Newman Guntecher? I plan on using, three wands, a twin gun, a rifle and a bow.
also two pistols and a cross bow when i get high enough to use it.

So, i'm already hooked up with a shock bullet, frost bullets, Earth(Silence) bullets and a infection crossbow.

As for techs, i was wanting (as a gimmic atleast) to use lighting techs. so those are there to stay (Gizonde, Razonde and Noszonde when it releases)

Then i want to know other techs, Diga is good for big baddies right? Rafoie for a fire tech with a massive boom (at 21 atleast...)

Also what buffs, now with this topic i've thought about getting deband atleast so i can increase my race-caused low damage. what else? what buff/debuffs should i get?

Syanaide
Feb 1, 2007, 09:02 PM
I would prefer against using damage techs as a Guntecher, even as a Newman.

The pallete I have been using and loving since the beginning of my Guntecher career has been:

1. Bow (Fire)
2. Bow (Dark)
3. Twin Handgun (Light)
4. Crossbow (Lightning) + Wand (Jellen, Zalure)
5. Crossbow (Freeze) + Wand (Shifta, Deband)
6. Card (Ice) + Wand (Resta, Reverser)

Thus far it handles everything great. I run in with my lightning crossbow to shock enenmies, then use zalure for my hunters. (Though it's currently not very effective at early levels with just one bullet, I'm bearing with it) I use bows against "large" creatures according to elements, and Twin Handguns for when it's time for damage.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Syanaide on 2007-02-01 18:03 ]</font>

Dymalos
Feb 1, 2007, 09:29 PM
For the purpose of disclosure here is a little background about my character, I am a 66 Beast Guntecher 7 and I'm the Xbox 360. I use the following weapons: Ulteri 3x, Alteric +6 x3, Hanmateric x2, Evil Twins 3x, Arb Rega +6 x2. Cubo Dunga x2, Mira-kikamic x3, Beam Vulcanic x3. I have all 6 elements for Bows, Crossbows, Dual Handguns, Machineguns, and Cards. I stick exclusively with Zodial and Shifta when it comes to Buffing, and I do not bother with Debuffs, because frankly I will contribute more by damaging the monster in the same span of time it takes to cast the things than I could from the cumilative benefits that any of the debuffs could possibly ever facilitate.

Damage Techs are a trap, do not bother with any of them, there is never a situation in which you will be doing more damage with these, then you could with the appropriate Ranged weapon. This goes even for Newmans, I'm sorry but Guntecher the class only allows you a total of 44% of your Race's base TP and that is at lvl 10, what this means is that even a Female Newman Guntecher will have 75% of the total TP that a Cast Male Fortetecher has, and that is absolutely, and positively gimp when it comes to attack Techs.

So many of you are disregarding the Guntecher as a damage class, but you all neglect or choose to ignore that the Guntecher has access to the most damaging and versatile ranged weapons equibable.

Bows, for example, have the highest Att and Acc out of any of the other ranged weapons and carry Lvl 4 S.E. with 30% element, on top of this they avoid the monster's Defense (but not flat 50% or 25% reductions). While this is an easy bonus to discount in even the lower level S Ranks, keep in mind that as we being recieving S2 missions the Defense bypass will only become more lucrative. That being said however, I do not primarily use my Bows unless the monsters have an incredible amount of Hitpoints, or are outright resistant to bullets. In these two cases the Lvl 4 S.E. Burn or Infection does the most damage out of my available options. I also bring out my Bow when De Regan, Dimmagolus, or Onmagoug take flight.

Crossbows are the king of Ranged Weapon DPS. They have a 3 shot dispersal with 21+ Bullets and carry Lvl 3 S.E. Some might argue with me that Shotguns outperform Crossbow DPS but they are welcome to join a mission with me and compare them side by side. The Crossbow has a much quicker rate of fire than the Shotgun (seriously why the hell do you have to pump a laser?), and it lets you remain mobile. I primarily use Crossbows against enemies which I can comfortably engage at close range, but they are particularly handy when I need to quickly apply a longlasting S.E. (Unlike with Shotguns you don't risk immediately breaking the Ice with the same attack you just used to place it on your enemy). Also if you're character is on the Short side you can rip into S Rank Vanda's with ease, as they seem to stay at an optimum distance away from you to hurl Diga over your head and they line up in a manner which facilitates hitting three at medium range.

Protip: A soloing strategy I employ to deal with Grove/Endrum/Train bots is to dish S.E. lvl 4 Infect on them with a Bow, then quickly freeze them with my Crossbow. This makes the whole process rather painless. This technique works rather well with just about any enemy that can be Infected and Frozen.

Cards are easy to dismiss at first glance, since we are only allowed to equip A Ranks. Doing so however, would be a dire mistake, as these are probably the most practical of all of the situational ranged weapons and will therefore see the most use. Cards are absolutely invaluable when dealing with anything that either Flies or Hurls dangerous Techs. Seriously, equipping cards against a lvl 85 Gaozoran is like activating easy mode. Also the card is tops with DPS, In testing, it ranks right behind the Crossbow, I guarantee that with a sufficiently leveled Card bullet you will be able to kill a Tengogh or it's Dark cousin much faster than you would with either Infect or Burn lvl 4.

I'm going to withhold any judgements on Machineguns until we recieve the update which improves their damage, but even in their current state I still do use them against smallish type enemies with piss poor defense, and against polty's and their ilk, a Machinegun kills quicker than any of my other armaments.

Also, Twin Handguns suck, I have lvl 30 Bullets in four of the Elements for these things, and I've yet to run into a situation in which I could not have done more damage by using either a Crossbow or a Card, and those go in one hand for Goodness' sake. I guess they make halfway decent backups.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-02-01 18:53 ]</font>

Kimil
Feb 2, 2007, 01:24 AM
Hmm... I think Guntechers need one more aspect to their class to make them stronger:
The choice between S rank Card and Bows (not both, so fT wont complain). May not notice it yet, but S Ranks... they have GOOD STATS (though, a good ol grinded 9* Kubara can catch up fast)

Ryo_Hayasa
Feb 2, 2007, 02:04 AM
Hmm, never saw it like that. I wish i could see all the different % charts and stuff like that that each class has, though i may need to rethink what to do about my class choice. I may just become a ForteTecher. Hmmm. Or, darn. I just want a selection of techs and plenty of bullets. i'm sure i could switch between Fortetecher and Guntecher and still have the PAs to be affective in both. right?

I remember how awesome my crossbow was offline i can't wait to use mine online.

SolomonGrundy
Feb 2, 2007, 02:11 AM
a correction: someone posted earlier ( I think it was panzer unit, sorry Panz) that the buff item consumables (agiaride or whatever it's called) is = to a level 21 buff.

It's not. It is a 11+ buff (180 seconds, I timed it).

more on topic: will all the great weapons GTs get, you are going to have to make some HARD choices. I'm choosing to learn NO Buffs (no shifta/deband/zodial/retrier), And NO attack techs. I'll learn 1-3 debuffs (jellen for sure), resta/reverser and save a slot for one other. If am attack tech gets released that does damage and is not based on TP, perhaps...

I might not even learn reverser...Sol atomizers get the job done.

6 slots for techs
2 slots for melee PAs
the rest of them go to bullets

final note: Dymalos wondered why anyone would bother with shotguns. Here's a reason: I'm going to moonlight as a Fortegunner. And fG + SG = winnar! (have you seen how awesome some of those S-ranks look?)

Criss
Feb 2, 2007, 03:03 AM
Reading this thread really made me want to make a guntecher... it sounds so much more challenging and demanding than my fortegunner (just aim and shoot at monsters instead of switching right/left weapon, keeping track of party members, using techs/bullets, etc...).

Thing is, my main character is already a CAST, I have an alt Newman, and I don't want another char of the same race. So I was thinking of maybe making a Beast Guntecher. Thing is, I just realized that Beasts have the lowest ATA, which might be a severe disadvantage for using the better cards/crossbows. So even though a Beast Guntecher would have the HP and defense to take some hits in the fray while getting close to debuff enemies, would a (especially female) beast guntecher be viable despite the low ATA?

hidareju
Feb 2, 2007, 09:01 AM
Well thank you all for the assistance with my choices, I am going to "try" to lvl 3-4 crossbows shots up and see what happens. Only thing that bothers me is having to hold that fracking button down to shoot my crossbow. I wish we could choose what slot to put the crossbow in and make the other the secondary.

As for my Twin guns, I am never going to put them down it will be a work of love to see multiple twin guns at lvl 30. I still feel bows have more to offer than rifles in my case so I will lvl at least 5-6 of those as well. I might drop my regular Handgun bullets (I only have 2 anyway) Since except the short range of crossbows they seem better.

My pure fun choice is to lvl Laser cannons up. I still want to do it for at least Light/Dark bullets just to be able to say I have them up there.

I will look at the two debuffs and see where I go from there.

Akaimizu
Feb 2, 2007, 11:31 AM
Same here. I'm never putting the Twin Gunnies away, either. It's now a main part of the character, and I even choice the job partially because they're "Supposed" to be a great weapon for the class. On the other hand, it's nice to have the complete option when you need it. I can combine them with the wands, in a slot, so I don't feel I have space issues with them. The Twins are a work of love, as well.

Affording a good amount of Crossbows, or the nicer weapons is just not realistic for me. Maybe in a month or two, as I would like to buy something else than have no gains. It takes me a whole week and some to afford just one crossbow, with my shop earnings, and I better not buy a single other thing, in the process. Still, I'll probably synth my own A or S rank Twin Guns, in the future. They're grossly over-priced compared to their use.

I still think ST needs to rebalance twin guns, though. By the virtue of the class alone, we're supposed to use them and they're supposed to give a bit more offense than single handed weapons. I mean, why give us access to S class of those guns if they have absolutely no plus against the other weapons we get? Now, they do get to out-damage a Rifle, particularly for flying bosses, but the access to Bows, throws that balance out of whack.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-02-02 08:38 ]</font>

Syanaide
Feb 2, 2007, 12:55 PM
While it does suck that crossbow is a bit better than Twin Handguns at higher levels, they still appeal to me simply because of how atrocious it is to skill up crossbows. Twin Handguns in my experience have leveled very fast, but pinging things with my crossbow hoping to level it has really tested my patience.

I couldn't imagine spending the time leveling 6x Crossbow bullets to 21+, in comparison to how easy it is to level Twin Handgun bullets to 21+, while playing casually.

Akaimizu
Feb 2, 2007, 01:11 PM
I think that's probably because you get SE3 with a Crossbow, while the Twin Handgun only gets SE2. It kind of sucks because even just the buffed version of regular dudes don't get affected by the Twins. The trek for Twin guns from 21 to 30 is practically not worth it. 80 combined shooting hours on 1 bullet, to get to 30 from 1; I would guess the majority of it spent past level 21.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-02-02 10:12 ]</font>

JAFO22000
Feb 2, 2007, 01:46 PM
On 2007-02-02 06:01, hidareju wrote:
Only thing that bothers me is having to hold that fracking button down to shoot my crossbow.



If you're on 360 (I'm unsure about the PC/PS2), you can change this in the options menu so you don't have to hold the right bumper when using your left handed weapon. Instead of holding the button down for left hand/releasing button for right hand, you can choose to press the button each time you want to switch.

Kittycat
Feb 2, 2007, 02:36 PM
just a random note... crossbows got nerfed from 160% to 140% back to 160% back to 140-145% attack at level 30 =._.=

juno-6
Feb 2, 2007, 02:42 PM
On 2007-02-02 00:03, Criss wrote:
So even though a Beast Guntecher would have the HP and defense to take some hits in the fray while getting close to debuff enemies, would a (especially female) beast guntecher be viable despite the low ATA?



Yeah. Grind a Tenora wand and buff your accuracy up/ use high ata. weapons like the alteric (6* kubara bow).

As for twin handguns being suck....i dont think so. They're 24% elemental, 1% less than cards. When your palette makes the upgrade to S rank they'll be the replacement. BTW, xbows only have like 9 or 13%. For now though the only reason to use twin guns over cards would be range maybe? or the ability to aim at multiple targets?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-02-02 11:43 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-02-02 12:05 ]</font>

chibiLegolas
Feb 2, 2007, 03:40 PM
Another Guntecher Question:
For those enemies who are highly bullet resistant, Dymalos stated that he uses burn or infect on them to damage them. But are there enemies who are IMMUNE to bullets all together, hence we can't even get SE4 through to them?
If so, then what? We only get lvl 10 skills and techs.
Debuff to tag and let other's take care of them (if you have other party members)? Even 1 attack tech would be a waste of time in this situation?

I guess I'm basically asking if there would be a situation where being a Ranger is an absolute disadvantage, hence being a tinsy bit techer comes in handy (compared to being a full Fortegunner).

Sorry for the newbie questions.
I'm still learning the ropes. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif'


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-02-02 12:40 ]</font>

Schubalts
Feb 2, 2007, 10:45 PM
On 2007-02-02 11:42, juno-6 wrote:
For now though the only reason to use twin guns over cards would be range maybe? or the ability to aim at multiple targets?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-02-02 11:43 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-02-02 12:05 ]</font>


Well, cards/fans/throwing blades/etc, can hit multiple targets to. They just have to be right next to each other.

juno-6
Feb 3, 2007, 12:01 AM
On 2007-02-02 12:40, chibiLegolas wrote:


I guess I'm basically asking if there would be a situation where being a Ranger is an absolute disadvantage, hence being a tinsy bit techer comes in handy (compared to being a full Fortegunner).


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-02-02 12:40 ]</font>


Closest thing to what your talking about are robots and mini-bosses. As a human GT, my Lv 10 DIGA actually does more damage to robots than my bullets, but they get affected by burn/infect neways.

What I noticed with mini-bosses and other "big" guys is that some actually are resistant to a specific status effect, but are susceptible to the others - you just gotta' experiment and remember which ones will work with who.

For instance, you know those dog-like stateria at the end of the agata relics, i cant burn them for crap...BUT i can freeze em'easily and constantly.


- As for the card thing, i meant sometimes youd raather not have your bullets all home in on the same target.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: juno-6 on 2007-02-02 21:05 ]</font>

Deja
Feb 4, 2007, 03:47 AM
Did crossbows get nerfed? I don't think they did, but I have a feeling I'm hitting for 20 less. Not THAT bad, but annoying. Its like 145% max atp for PA, I thought I remembered it being 160%