Who would like to see Espers come back as a 'Race'?

[pionear]

Who would like to see these guys come back as a Race in PSU? I know they were the main Magic Users, so maybe Newmans would have some competition.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pionear on 2007-03-06 15:52 ]</font>

[Eauijhkuu]

To revive Espers would mean to revive Magic since they were basically the only race that could use it.

And that would completely destroy the whole point of Techniques that Forces use http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Unless they configured it to be used like Rune's abilities in PS4...Cast's SUVs or Beasts Nanoblasts. Then I yeah..maybe.

[Nai_Calus]

Except Espers are just normal humans who happen to have inherited the genetic trait for magic use. Not much of a 'race', there, any more than people who happen to have inherited an ability to sing well. (Though being able to use magic would be arguably more useful.)

Actually, I suppose there could be some debate over what an Esper actually is. Is it *just* someone who can use magic, or are there other requirements as far as abilities as well? Since both Alis and Myau could use magic in PSI but nobody ever claims they were Espers. XP Further confusing things is that in the Japanese version of PSII Lutz claims to be Algol's last Esper... Anyone ever figure out WTF a Telemental is supposed to be in the English version? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif (I suppose it could be terms shifting over time and you can explain it away as back in AW 342 'Esper' referred to someone with the abilities Lutz demonstrates in PSII, i.e. teleportation and telepathy, but over time it came to refer to anyone who could simply use magic. 'Twould make sense.)

[pionear]

I still think they're are a race.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pionear on 2007-03-08 07:46 ]</font>

[HUnewearl_Meira]

No they're not. They're just Palmans with the genetically inheritted ability to use magic. Some people have a genetic trait that lets them curl the edge of their tongue five places, too, but that doesn't make them a different race. Just the same, some people are born extremely short, despite having normally-sized parents. That does not make them a separate race. Some people are born with the potential to become Diabetic. This does not make them anything other than human. Rune and Kyra no more or less a Palman than are Chaz and Hahn. Chaz was born with blond hair, and Hahn with brown. Shockingly, they are still both Palman. All of these Palmans will live to be anywhere from 55 to 105 years old, assuming that they die of natural causes and fail to have themselves crygenically frozen.

Simply enough, having Espers in addition to Forces would be redundant. Arguably, a Force can be described as being an Esper. Furthermore, the Communion of Gurhal can be seen as a parallel to the Esper Mansion.

[OdinTyler]

Also, if youre going to bring back Espers (they are Palmans), you might as well bring back Motavians & Dezorians. I, for one, would have no problem with this. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Wasnt there a rumor that Rolf (after PSII) & Rika (before or after PSIV) received Esper training. I doubt its true, but, Ive always wondered about this.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2007-03-08 07:31, OdinTyler wrote:
Wasnt there a rumor that Rolf (after PSII) & Rika (before or after PSIV) received Esper training.


We have no idea what happened to Rolf or his party after PSII. Whether they lived or died is knowledge beyond us. Best to leave it be.

As for Rika, well, who's to say? She was created as a breeding partner for the Palman race, to make them better suited to Motavia's declining climate conditions, so presumably she ended up with children. I don't know how much time that leaves for Esper training. Still, who's to say?

[pionear]

On 2007-03-07 04:11, Ian-KunX wrote:
Except Espers are just normal humans who happen to have inherited the genetic trait for magic use. Not much of a 'race', there, any more than people who happen to have inherited an ability to sing well. (Though being able to use magic would be arguably more useful.)

Actually, I suppose there could be some debate over what an Esper actually is. Is it *just* someone who can use magic, or are there other requirements as far as abilities as well? Since both Alis and Myau could use magic in PSI but nobody ever claims they were Espers. XP Further confusing things is that in the Japanese version of PSII Lutz claims to be Algol's last Esper... Anyone ever figure out WTF a Telemental is supposed to be in the English version? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif (I suppose it could be terms shifting over time and you can explain it away as back in AW 342 'Esper' referred to someone with the abilities Lutz demonstrates in PSII, i.e. teleportation and telepathy, but over time it came to refer to anyone who could simply use magic. 'Twould make sense.)



That's why I say they are a race. If Beast are genetically changed Humans as well as Newmans, then Espers must be a race as well.

Black people and White people are Humans too, but are divided as a race because of skin and facial differences.

I'm Lutz, the last telemental on Algo.

Taken from PSII. If he was just a regular human, he wouldn't say something like that.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

Beasts and Newmans are altered to such a degree that they're a different sub-species altogether. Still genetically compatible it seems, but with different physiologies altogether. Beasts, for example, have shape-shifting abilities. If people's assumptions are true, then it may be the same with Newmans, if they ever find some Laerma nuts. They're still homonids, maybe even humans, but they're not Homo sapien. Their bodies are not the same. Espers' bodies are the same, and the differences trivial. Furthermore, their ability to use magic is spread out all across the Palman race, to varying degrees. Some can use full-blown magic, some can use a wide range of techniques, some can use just a few techniques, and others can't use techniques at all. Even Dezolians have those among them that can use magic, but they generally end up as priests, instead of joining with the Espers. Even some of the animal life can use magic. Magic and Techniques are merely something that occurs in the genetics of Algol, and the ability to use these things does not define one race from another.

So no, Espers are not a race, and again, Forces are, in essense, Espers in and of themselves. They simply lack the Esper organization that we saw in Algol.

[pionear]

On 2007-03-08 13:26, HUnewearl_Meira wrote:
Beasts and Newmans are altered to such a degree that they're a different sub-species altogether. Still genetically compatible it seems, but with different physiologies altogether. Beasts, for example, have shape-shifting abilities. If people's assumptions are true, then it may be the same with Newmans, if they ever find some Laerma nuts. They're still homonids, maybe even humans, but they're not Homo sapien. Their bodies are not the same. Espers' bodies are the same, and the differences trivial. Furthermore, their ability to use magic is spread out all across the Palman race, to varying degrees. Some can use full-blown magic, some can use a wide range of techniques, some can use just a few techniques, and others can't use techniques at all. Even Dezolians have those among them that can use magic, but they generally end up as priests, instead of joining with the Espers. Even some of the animal life can use magic. Magic and Techniques are merely something that occurs in the genetics of Algol, and the ability to use these things does not define one race from another.

So no, Espers are not a race, and again, Forces are, in essense, Espers in and of themselves. They simply lack the Esper organization that we saw in Algol.



That doesnt make any sense. If every one can do what the Espers do, then why freeze one for 1000 years? Obviously, they are a special type of human, which makes them a exclusive Race.

And they use Magic, not Techniques, which seems to be to different things in the Phantasy Star world.

And like I said before, Race can mean many things besides physical traits. Blacks, Asians, and Whites have the same bodies as well, but are separated by racial stock/features.

And finally, I compare the Espers to the Certa of Final Fantasy 7; A ancient Race of people who been around for a long time.







<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pionear on 2007-03-08 14:53 ]</font>

[pionear]

On 2007-03-06 22:32, Eauijhkuu wrote:
To revive Espers would mean to revive Magic since they were basically the only race that could use it.

And that would completely destroy the whole point of Techniques that Forces use http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Unless they configured it to be used like Rune's abilities in PS4...Cast's SUVs or Beasts Nanoblasts. Then I yeah..maybe.




Not really, since they had techs in PSII, III and IV.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2007-03-08 14:52, pionear wrote:
That doesnt make any sense. If every one can do what the Espers do, then why freeze one for 1000 years? Obviously, they are a special type of human, which makes them a exclusive Race.

And they use Magic, not Techniques, which seems to be to different things in the Phantasy Star world.

And like I said before, Race can mean many things besides physical traits. Blacks, Asians, and Whites have the same bodies as well, but are separated by racial stock/features.



Techniques and Magic are more closely related than you seem to realize. According to the Compendium, Technique useage was discovered by Lutz while travelling the galaxy with Alis after the first Phantasy Star. It is a watered-down form of Magic, and enabled many of those who are unable to perform Magic a form of Magic that they could perform. In the games, we therefore see varying degrees of Magical ability, ranging from no ability to perform any sort of magic, to the ability to perform powerful magic spells. It's widespread, but only those with the strongest abilities can use the full-blown Magic.

The result is that it's not actually all that special a trait in Algol, and a great deal of Palmans have it to varying degrees; as well, it's demonstrated by a number of Algolian creatures and Dezolians.

Furthermore, we use the term "Race" very loosely when differenciating between white, black, asian and such. A more appropriate term would be "ethnicity" or "breed". The reason being that all humans on Earth essentially have the same potentials, but bear trivial cosmetic differences and predilectations. "Human" is a race, but "Caucasian" is a breed.

To further differenciate between magic users as a race and Beasts/Newmans as a race, it is conceivable for two non-magic (simply tech-using, perhaps?) using parents to produce a magic-using child, but if a Beast is born to two Human parents, then Dad's gotta go find and beat the Beast that slept with his wife.

[zandra117]

I think that espers are the last remaining pure palmans. All the other palmans have been mixed with the earthmen thus losing alot of their magic. During Alis's time the earthmen were just getting started with taking over Algol, thus not many people were mixed between earthmen and palman. By the time of PSII most of the palman population had earthmen blood running in their veins and the earthmen had taken control of the system.

[pionear]

^That's kinda of a stretch.


Furthermore, we use the term "Race" very loosely when differenciating between white, black, asian and such. A more appropriate term would be "ethnicity" or "breed".

Breeds? We are talking about Humans here, not Dogs and Cats! Dogs can be different Species and Breeds, not Humans.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pionear on 2007-03-15 16:14 ]</font>

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2007-03-15 16:13, pionear wrote:
Breeds? We are talking about Humans here, not Dogs and Cats! Dogs can be different Species and Breeds, not Humans.


The term "breed" is, in fact, technically correct. It refers to a member of the same species of organism (i.e., sharing same number and combination of chromosomes) with distinctly different physical features; everything from color of the skin or hair to average height and shape of the nose. After all, is the difference between a poodle and a black Labrador that much more significant than the difference between a man of European lineage and a man of African lineage? These sorts of differences are trivial next to the differences between Sapien (us) and Neanderthal, who are different races on the premise that the chromosomes, while similar, are not the same.

Remember that "breed" is a biological issue, and has little to do with dogs and cats alone. All species with diversity have breeds, including Homo sapien. That we've taken to calling them "races" is a misnomer, because we're all essentially the same.

[DezoPenguin]

On 2007-03-15 16:13, pionear wrote:
^That's kinda of a stretch.


Furthermore, we use the term "Race" very loosely when differenciating between white, black, asian and such. A more appropriate term would be "ethnicity" or "breed".

Breeds? We are talking about Humans here, not Dogs and Cats! Dogs can be different Species and Breeds, not Humans.



First off, you're completely wrong about "species" as it compares to humans. Human beings are a species: Homo sapiens sapiens, just as dogs are Canis canis and wolves Canis lupus (Technically, "Homo" and the first "Canis" are genus, not species, but you never see just the species listed alone).

Secondly, a "race" of humanity--as seen in the real world, not fantasy worlds--is exactly the same thing as a "breed" of a dog or cat. It's a collection of specific genetic characteristics (primarily skin color, though anthropologically there are additional factors) reflecting ancestry within a species. Similarly, a "breed" of dog is an arbitrary label slapped on a set of genetic characteristics. "Labrador retriever," "Yorkshire terrier," and "German shepherd dog" are all names of breeds, but they are all part of the Canis canis species.

The major difference between human "races" and animal "breeds" is that with humans, the "races" have evolved due to social and evolutionary pressures, while most animal "breeds" have been artifically created by selective breeding (hence the word "breed") to emphasize certain traits so that the animals can fufill certain roles in human society--which is why wild animals do not have "breeds" within a species even though they have genetic variations.

That's real life. Okay, Algo isn't real, so moving on:

The term "race" has acquired a different meaning in fantasy roleplaying than it has in real life. In FRPGs, "race" generally refers to a more drastic difference than just skin color and epicanthic folds, a difference that can be measured in game terms. Elves, dwarves, hobbits/halflings, reptile men, etc., etc. are all "races."

Personally, I would argue that most FRPG "races" are in fact different species. The Shadowrun game, being set in the future, holds this explicitly; elves are Homo sapiens nobilis, orks Homo sapiens robustus (and yes, it's spelled ork, not orc in Shadowrun), and so on.

Interbreeding is completely irrelevant to the argument at hand. Some FRPG races (humans and elves and humans and orcs being the most cliched pairings) can interbreed; some can't. Some real-life separate species can interbreed, too--like wolves and dogs, which I mentioned above. Other species are too genetically different to mate--wolves and cats, or humans and thri-kreen.

It is entirely possible to argue that Espers constitute a "race" of Palmans within the real-world meaning. That is, when the Palman equivalent of Nazis start getting around to cleansing the genetic code, then start talking about how the "master race" ( http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_barf.gif ) has to get rid of Espers instead of, say, blacks.

But in the sense that it's a FRPG "race," then no, Esper isn't a race, it's a character class. Compare it to GURPS, for example, where there's an advantage (not a race or class) called "Magery." In low-magic worlds (the default status), Mages are the only people who can learn magic. There can be human Mages, goblin Mages, elf Mages, etc.; Magery is the "I can be a magic-user if I want to" genetic ability, not a racial definition. Some races get a level or more of Magery automatically (elves, for example) as part of being that race. Some races are forbidden to gain Magery (kind of like how PSIV/PSO Androids cannot learn techniques) because of their antimagical nature.

Culturally speaking, by the time of PSII, the Espers had banded together on Dezolis to hide from Mother Brain (hey, there's a reason I mentioned the Nazis, 'cause that kind of action is exactly what did happen in Algo).

So no, Espers do not constitute a "race" in the FRPG sense. The Algolian races are Palman, Motavian, Dezolian (or Dezorian, if you prefer), Numan (not Newman, please), Android, and technically Earthman. Esper is an "occupation" or "character class" similar to Hunter, Warrior, Scholar, Wizard, or Priest.

*man, I can't believe I somehow missed the creation of this whole forum all these months!*

[Nai_Calus]

It's been hiding from you, waiting to attack you in the dark, kind of like when you wake up in the middle of the night and go to put on your slippers to go to the bathroom and find a Del Ian in them. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

As far as genetics goes, the only thing I recall reading about it was that magic use was a dominant genetic trait and that if one of your parents had the ability to use magic and the other didn't, you would still be able to learn how to use it.

I still wonder if the term 'Esper' hasn't changed meaning over time, though.

[OnnaWren]

Sidetracking... As for Rika having children, I will always go by the Compendium, and Lui's existence. Who knows whether or not it was meant to be the actual ending of PSIV, but was snipped due to a lack of meg room?

[DezoPenguin]

I don't see why not. I mean, it's not "part of the game" official, but it's "Sega-produced support materials" official, and it's not like Sega shows any signs of going back to Algo anytime soon, so why not Rika having kids?

(insert your favorite "less-than-a-man" joke about Chaz here... *rimshot*)

Seriously, though, that's always how I thought about it.

[Nai_Calus]

I think I probably object more to the idea of poor Shorty getting offed while still barely more than a youngster on some random guild mission part of it more than the idea of him and Rika having kids. I mean, a kid or three is likely inevitable. It's what happens when *insert your favourite catgirl joke here*. But I'm a closet Chaz fan, so. XP (Shh, don't tell anybody. ...Wait. Oh snap!)

[PrinceBrightstar]

IF we take things purely on the sense that being an Esper means you can use Magic, then perhaps Mirei fufills that goal, as she is able to use the techniques without the use of a wand. The visual effect is different too I think, so maybe it's not resta but something else she uses but still yeilds the same result.

[Weeaboolits]

The only reason different "races" of humans are termed as such is because, like one of the posts above, people tend to think themselves superior to non-sentient beings, and as such find terms such as "breed" demeening, that is the only reason we say "race" instead of "breed" when referring to humans.

[UnholyBlood]

On 2007-03-07 04:11, Ian-KunX wrote:
Except Espers are just normal humans who happen to have inherited the genetic trait for magic use. Not much of a 'race', there, any more than people who happen to have inherited an ability to sing well. (Though being able to use magic would be arguably more useful.)

Actually, I suppose there could be some debate over what an Esper actually is. Is it *just* someone who can use magic, or are there other requirements as far as abilities as well? Since both Alis and Myau could use magic in PSI but nobody ever claims they were Espers. XP Further confusing things is that in the Japanese version of PSII Lutz claims to be Algol's last Esper... Anyone ever figure out WTF a Telemental is supposed to be in the English version? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif (I suppose it could be terms shifting over time and you can explain it away as back in AW 342 'Esper' referred to someone with the abilities Lutz demonstrates in PSII, i.e. teleportation and telepathy, but over time it came to refer to anyone who could simply use magic. 'Twould make sense.)




I agree with this. Espers are just magic users with supreme ability and to be honest- techniques , magic all the same really and the PSO designs for tech users are very much in the style of 'Espers'.