Fortefighters and lv30 bullets?

[PALRAPPYS]

Well, should they?

The pistol is the only ranged weapon that FF's can use, let alone it's already the weakest (or, at least one of the weakest) ranged weapon in the game. I honestly don't see that this would cause FF's to become broken either, unless the pistol damage increase is a lot (which I don't know--I don't use pistols).

Yay? Nay? 20 cap?

[McLaughlin]

It might prove to be an incentive to actually use them as a Fortefighter.

By the way, you've got Lv 30 Bullets in the Title, and Lv 20 Bullets in the poll. I voted for a Lv 20 cap, but if you intended to ask about Lv 30, I'd have to rescind my vote.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Obsidian_Knight on 2007-03-20 17:25 ]</font>

[Zorafim]

Techers can use ranged weapons effectively, why can't we?

Oh, right. Stat differences. But still, they get really effective weapons while we're stuck with pitiful damage and no status effects, as well as no way to defend against flying enemies.
Zorafim want brokenness!

[Candor]

I don't see how this could make fF broken either, gimme my lv 30 bullets http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rant.gif

[Shiro_Ryuu]

If they give us level 30 bullets, then they'd better give us longbows, I mean, longbows should be Hunter weapons, not Force weapons.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-03-20 17:25 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

I voted 20. The issue is, no one buys buller arts for pistols because they kinda suck it. And all other clases have better options (Wartecher = cardss)

[Rashiid]

pistol is merely just a side weapon if u decied to use a single sword.

+ ur a fortefighter, u should hav mainly 2handed weapons anyway, take advantage of or 3 combos, and more power, since single swords are weaker then twin.

[Soukosa]

If you want guns with melee then you should go FiG. FF already has the strongest weapons in the game with the highest ATP. There's a reason why they only have lv 10 bullets with handguns, they're not meant for such combat.

[Candor]

the issue for me isn't that I want to use my handgun, it's that i have to for certain enemies (most of which are bosses or other enemies with lots of health).

[PALRAPPYS]

Okay, basic reason I made this is to see what you would think.

Yay=30
Nay=10
20 Cap=20

It's kinda interesting actually. I mean, the only ranged item you can use as FF is pistol, so that's why I suggested it. Plus, if slicers come out as ranged weapons for hunters, then they might have bullet arts. That's just all... but where would the room go for slicers anyway? you know on the weapon sheet showing your class level and of the sort? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif

[Candor]

If slicers use bullets and fF get to use them we had better get increased bullet lvs, i miss my slicers http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Rashiid]

Fortefighters getting slicers would be silly.

[Zorafim]

On 2007-03-20 17:45, Rashiid wrote:
+ ur a fortefighter, u should hav mainly 2handed weapons anyway, take advantage of or 3 combos, and more power, since single swords are weaker then twin.



Because we all know how amazing it is to have the best atp in the game along with the best DoT weapons in the game when fighting an enemy that doesn't allow anyone close to it. Our three hit PA combos are amazing against Jarba's Dambarta, and our insane attack is priceless against Onma while he flies.

[VanHalen]

Right now I'd be happy if my bullets went to 11.

[omegapirate2k]

Level 15 cap http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Mio]

Yeah and give us fortegunners Melle PA lvl 30, we can't equip good weapons anyway.

pfft

[Candor]

if the only melee weapon you could use were sabers, then that would be a valid argument.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Candor on 2007-03-20 18:16 ]</font>

[Mio]

But Pistols at lvl 30 are very, very strong Candor. Many Fortegunners use them, they're mobile rifle. They start getting very stronger after 11.

[Candor]

well i wouldn't know that seeing as i can't get it over 10. I don't know, i just hate the flying enemies >.< come down here so i can smack you around!

[Rashiid]

On 2007-03-20 18:03, Zorafim wrote:

On 2007-03-20 17:45, Rashiid wrote:
+ ur a fortefighter, u should hav mainly 2handed weapons anyway, take advantage of or 3 combos, and more power, since single swords are weaker then twin.



our insane attack is priceless against Onma while he flies.



you cant be everywhere, ur fighters, not snipers, so wait till he falls, then attack.

+ ya cant really be us forces' meatshields buddies in combat when hes flying anyway, so tis ok! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[B0Bomb]

SLAG THAT! fF get Lvl.30 weapon skills, which cause crazy amounts of damage. All us fG players can hope for is the damage mods that Bullets give us plus the status ailments. Plus, fG ends up spending more money on Photon recharges since we use photon energy with each shot anyways.

[AweOfShe]

Nay.

[Akaimizu]

Yep. A lot of people slag on Handguns, but the thing is, it does nothing to stop them from being very powerful SE3 status effect deliverers if raised up that high. Attack Power be darned, when those SEs take over, that's where it really counts. Always remember this, and this should be repeated until it is common knowledge, SE3 is an SE3 no matter what it is fired from, as long as it lands. You do realize that at least a few classes, in the game, depend *solely* on that factor in order to even do sizable support damage on high-levelled monsters.

It's really hard to tell, how much that could mess up balance. I don't want Fortefighters to feel weak (which by no means they are, and still have their advantages over various classes *in practice*. Melee resistant monsters usually mean their damage is brought down a bit closer to my bullet damage on non-bullet resistant monsters), but I also don't want a repeat of early PSO hunter all over again. It'll be back to me constantly running after them because they feel they no longer need my support.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-21 09:49 ]</font>

[Candor]

OK giving fF SE3 might be overpowered (who knows really), but we do need a better option for some range. I'm hoping we get slicers, it looked like a right-handed weapon in that magazine scan. *crosses fingers*

[chibiLegolas]

I say Fortefighters bullet cap SHOULD be at 10. It's the principle of the class itself. They're for brute melee power. And their total OPPOSITE are ranged attacks.
Their PA caps are the opposite of fortegunners, as they should be.
If you give FF more bullet caps, then the opposite goes for fortegunners as well with an increase in melee skills.
It's balanced the way it is. Sure it sucks to be limited in bullets and ranged weapon pallet for FF. But that's why they're the EXTREME end of melee power in the game.
Besides, I'd assume with even lvl 10 bullets, their hits will STILL hurt big time cause of their natural ATP.

Just be glad FF bullets and fortegunners's skills aren't stuck at 1, like how forces only get melee skills capped at 1 (yes, their bullets are 30. But I'm talking about PA's stuck at 1 at this point).

[Candor]

On 2007-03-21 09:56, chibiLegolas wrote:
I say Fortetechers melee cap SHOULD be at 0. It's the principle of the class itself. They're for brute spell power. And their total OPPOSITE are melee attacks.

fixed

[amtalx]

If you want to use guns you should choose another class...leave the blasting to the rangers http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif.

[ljkkjlcm9]

if you look at the chart for weapons, there is one "melee slot," one "ranged slot," and two tech. The whip will be melee, slicer most likely ranged, and the madoog and maybe another later, tech weapon.

Fortefighters need not be using handguns. The idea is, your ATP is high enough to use level 10 bullets equal to that of say, level 20 of other classes. So deal with it, because it's true. Honestly, slicer seems to be more of a figunner, guntecher, fortegunner weapon IMO.

THE JACKEL

[JAFO22000]

I don't see why they couldn't have level 30 bullets, or at least 20. Pistol is the ONLY ranged weapons FF get. It would give them a viable option to hit flying enemies.

I mean, come on, it's not like the one handed pistol is desirable anyway. How many GT, Fortegunners or Fighgunners do you see using them on a regular basis? Even with bullets at level 30, it would not become their main weapon of choice by a long shot. I don't think any of the gunner classes would have to worry about FF's treading on their domain....

Funny how this argument comes up now, when everyone is spamming the Sea Lab and FF's are only now bringing this up because they see a flaw in their class....not having a pistol didn't seem like a problem for Bruce's...and once everyone moves to the Mad Beasts S2, it will cease to be a problem again.

[Zorafim]

On 2007-03-21 10:23, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
Honestly, slicer seems to be more of a figunner, guntecher, fortegunner weapon IMO.

THE JACKEL




Nobody has played the PS series, have they? I keep on hearing the most random...

Ah, anyway, slicer users were agile characters with very respectable attack power and offensive spells. One slicer user was half magician, but she should be tagged along anyway.
Anne was normally the first person to strike due to her high agility, and left a nice opening in the enemy's defenses with the damage she gave out. Alys did the same thing, but seemed better at it because the enemies were weaker. Also, her shifta seemed alot more useful due to the fact that PSIV actually had bosses. Based on these two characters, just by looking at them, they seem like fighgunners.
Kyre was a red mage character. She could either attack all the enemies on screen with her slicers, or attack them with whatever magic or techs she currently knew. She could easily support the team as well. This seems to be a wartecher.

Though I'd like to have one of these as a fortefighter, they seem very much like something given to fighgunners or wartechers (probably wartechers, due to their low weapon selection). I don't know why you would think that guntechers, of all people, should get slicers. And just due to the concept of the whole thing, fortegunner is the last person I'd expect to hold a slicer.

[Akaimizu]

The only reason why GTs don't use Single Handguns more is because they generally have better alternatives that also accomplish the same thing (and get the same level of Status Effects from). If GTs didn't have crossbow, they'd probably use single Handguns more for the SE3 factor. In fact, they are still used by GTs because they last a good while, and are a great *to the finish* final weapon to travel with, when our other chosen SE3 weapons run dry. We never scoff at SE3.

You do realize that while we get to use sabers and single daggers, in addition to our skill capping at 10, we get a LOT less of a battle advantage by being able to use them, than the FF gets with Handgun. SE3 is SE3, and if you think a FF would NOT abuse that, then you need to see how much SE3 is used in the field. Believe me, it's a VERY VERY powerful addition to someone who has major resources in other places.

We get melee with absolutely no potential to make them into powerful monster killers, just as capable in certain cases, as our guns; yet what this is precisely what FF are asking for, in the opposite. It really isn't condusive of the strategy of the FF. It's almost in the same vein as ForteTechers, which technically shouldn't be half-rangers, but they are.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-21 11:10 ]</font>

[jayster]

I think fF should only have lv10 bullets, if anything, let fighgunners who raised up ranger a little get level 30 bullets, we only have 2 more guns then fortefighters anyways.

[JAFO22000]

The only reason why GTs don't use Single Handguns more is because they generally have better alternatives that also accomplish the same thing (and get the same level of Status Effects from). If GTs didn't have crossbow, they'd probably use single Handguns more for the SE3 factor. In fact, they are still used by GTs because they last a good while, and are a great *to the finish* final weapon to travel with, when our other chosen SE3 weapons run dry. We never scoff at SE3.


Good point. But, more than likely, twin pistols would be used to counter if no crossbow were available. Possibly a single pistol, but only in the off hand when a cane would be equipped also. I really only see wartechers use pistols on a regular basis.


You do realize that while we get to use sabers and single daggers, in addition to our skill capping at 10, we get a LOT less of a battle advantage by being able to use them, than the FF gets with Handgun. SE3 is SE3, and if you think a FF would NOT abuse that, then you need to see how much SE3 is used in the field. Believe me, it's a VERY VERY powerful addition to someone who has major resources in other places.

I have lots of SE3 options as a Fortetecher and I do NOT rely on them. Not only are they harder for me to inflict them (rate of fire for Gifoie is MUCH slower than a gunner using twin guns), I also don't have the mobility nor the range to apply them on a regular basis. When I choose a tech to use on an enemy, the SE that could be applied is NEVER the main reason I choose it. Case in point, Gol Dova. I can shoot them over and over with Foie doing about 350 damage/shot in an attempt to get it burning or I can just shoot Diga at 1150/shot and kill it as fast as possible. Killing it as fast as possible is my main concern as it's spotty as to whether I'd be able to apply the status or not.

I use this argument because I REALLY don't think that a FF would sit back with their pistol shooting at, say, a group of 5 Ageeta hoping to apply a status when they can easily pull out a melee weapon and cut them down much quicker. If they wanted to gun, they would've been a gunner. All they want is one viable option to hit flying enemies. Perhaps the SE of pistols should be dropped to a max of SE2?


We get melee with absolutely no potential to make them into powerful monster killers, just as capable in certain cases, as our guns; yet what this is precisely what FF are asking for, in the opposite.


I haven't read their request the same way that you have. I really think they just want to be able to have an option against Jarbas and flying enemies because melee is no good against them.


It really isn't condusive of the strategy of the FF. It's almost in the same vein as ForteTechers, which technically shouldn't be half-rangers, but they are.


How are we half rangers? Any good force out there will have only a few bow and/or card bullets. With all of the techs we need we really can't have much more than that...unless you forgo a lot of techs to get all of the bow and card bullets....in which case you should've been a gunner to begin with. If FT's weren't able to S rank in Bows and Cards, all we would have as far as S ranks would've been Wands and Rods. Anyway, cards and bows should be only a little used part of the FT's arsenal. Great for flying enemies and bosses. I believe this is all FF's want too...an option.

>
[/quote]

[amtalx]

On 2007-03-21 10:36, JAFO22000 wrote:
I don't see why they couldn't have level 30 bullets, or at least 20. Pistol is the ONLY ranged weapons FF get. It would give them a viable option to hit flying enemies.

I mean, come on, it's not like the one handed pistol is desirable anyway. How many GT, Fortegunners or Fighgunners do you see using them on a regular basis? Even with bullets at level 30, it would not become their main weapon of choice by a long shot. I don't think any of the gunner classes would have to worry about FF's treading on their domain....

Funny how this argument comes up now, when everyone is spamming the Sea Lab and FF's are only now bringing this up because they see a flaw in their class....not having a pistol didn't seem like a problem for Bruce's...and once everyone moves to the Mad Beasts S2, it will cease to be a problem again.



I think giving level 30 bullets to a Fortefighter would be way off the mark. After all they are a specialized class. The whole point of a specialized class is that they are good at one thing. Giving a specialized fighter legitimate ranged capability would unbalance the class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: amtalx on 2007-03-21 11:58 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

Actually, Twin Handguns don't replace Crossbows. They are SE2 instruments of death. The Single handguns can go to SE3 and thus why they would take the place. As SE2 the Twin handguns serve a different kind of purpose.

They are long range general-purpose direct damage dealers and very fast SE2 status effect layers for the non-armored mobs (which are generally of the many). They also serve the purpose of being the longest range aggro gatherers due to their rate of speed in combination with range. Very easy to keep last hits in if needed(no matter where we are), so monsters come after us.

Without Crossbows, the Single Handguns would end up being our main SE3 strafe-able shooting weapons with which to land a better Status Effect on particular stronger creatures. Twin Handguns stopping at SE2 is precisely why they don't replace the single handgun alone. It takes a Guntecher to know the pain of monsters they can only do single-digit damage numbers to (if not barely crossing into double digits) without the help of a DOT SE. In some cases, if one didn't build up an SE4 DOT, we're absolutely toothless. (Hive S anyone?)

Even if you take into consideration, just the guns; we don't just sit there and shoot. It's also about using the right gun for the right kind of monster. It's precisely how we conserve PP, while choosing the best situational case for the job.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-21 13:06 ]</font>

[Candor]

On 2007-03-21 11:57, amtalx wrote:
I think giving level 30 bullets to a Fortefighter would be way off the mark. After all they are a specialized class. The whole point of a specialized class is that they are good at one thing. Giving a specialized fighter legitimate ranged capability would unbalance the class.

So is a fG also a specialized class? If so then why do you get 3 options for melee combat including a freaking spear?! Or if you don't like that just shoot the enemy in the face with a shotgun or crossbow if it gets too close.

All I want is the same option to be useful when it's impossible for me to hit an enemy with melee. When i originally responded SE's were the farthest thing from my mind (i actually forgot my handgun could do that). And do SE3 even work on most flying monsters?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Candor on 2007-03-21 12:26 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

Actually, I'm not sure there is a Status effect that doesn't work on most flying monsters. They're pretty susceptible to pretty much all forms of SE.

Figunners have no access to level 21 bullets or above. That's a huge huge balancing hit to them. They have no SE4 access, for anything; and the more mobile guns, that could achieve SE3, are out of their capabilities as well. They are completely locked to SE2 and below.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-21 12:34 ]</font>

[Candor]

you're not thinking of bosses are ya?

[SolomonGrundy]

Handgun SE3 it only at 21+. Give Fortefighters level 20 bullets and thye will never get SE2.

*every other class has access to SE2, or better* ForteFighter is the only class that it limited to SE1.*

but forget about that evem I just want level 20 bullets for better accuracy, elemental % and damage modifier.

Edit: oh, one more thing. Slicers are a hunter weapon. I suspect fortefighters will get at least A rank.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-03-21 12:37 ]</font>

[TheRealFlow]

I say give us FF's the level 30 bullets. It's the only range weapon we can use, why not gives us some kind of boost and have a decent effect?

[Akaimizu]

On 2007-03-21 12:36, TheRealFlow wrote:
I say give us FF's the level 30 bullets. It's the only range weapon we can use, why not gives us some kind of boost and have a decent effect?



Because once you get that, you'll ditch quite a few other classes.

[Candor]

fG are very insecure aren't they http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But I have to say lv 20 bullets would be enough of a boost.

[TheRealFlow]

On 2007-03-21 12:39, Akaimizu wrote:

On 2007-03-21 12:36, TheRealFlow wrote:
I say give us FF's the level 30 bullets. It's the only range weapon we can use, why not gives us some kind of boost and have a decent effect?



Because once you get that, you'll ditch quite a few other classes.



It's only the handgun, lol, not like we get all the range weapons or anything....

[Akaimizu]

On 2007-03-21 13:13, TheRealFlow wrote:

It's only the handgun, lol, not like we get all the range weapons or anything....



It's the Status effect level 3, mainly. You do realize we have at least 1 entire class that almost relies solely on SE, and they're a Ranger-main class. Giving the main fighter class a SE level that even hybrid Fighter-based classes don't have, is very important. You think a Guntecher's array of weapons was really meant for Direct damage? ATP, and the lack thereof, for single handgun, is only an issue with fighter mentality. Rangers, particularly ones lacking in the ATP department, think mainly of SEs. Whether it is shot from a handgun, or a piece of paper (if there was one) SE3 is just as dangerous a tool.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-21 13:32 ]</font>

[TheRealFlow]

I'm just saying it's only the handgun, lol. Every other class that deals with guns has more options other then the handgun. The way I see it is that it would not harm any other class if the FF's got the weakest gun's level 30 bullet...

[Akaimizu]

On 2007-03-21 13:36, TheRealFlow wrote:
I'm just saying it's only the handgun, lol. Every other class that deals with guns has more options other then the handgun. The way I see it is that it would not harm any other class if the FF's got the weakest gun's level 30 bullet...



My concern is that the single handgun is actually not bad at starting SEs, at higher levels. Sonic Team generally forgot one thing. A gun that hits weaker, per shot, still kicks as much butt with the same level SE, when activated, as the most powerful gun in the arsenal. That would enable a ForteFighter, in many cases, to do as much damage in an SE as I could possibly top off of, in overall damage completely. And because it's a single handgun and they don't have S level, they will probably think to stick with a middle-ground one grinded to have lots of PP on it. All the while, they still can fight with an array of viable weapons that don't need PP to use on. That is, unless I try to beat them with SE4 bullets (which are limited use, in a level, because those weapons eat bullets fast). In higher levels, my direct damage becomes more of a small HP Shaver compared to the real damage that is done via SE. I even mention reasons why, I'll eventually progress to certain ranged with less ATP and more PP reserves, for that very purpose.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-21 13:47 ]</font>

[Rashiid]

fF are not ment for SE, ur meant for pure damage!!!

there is no reason u should hav 11+ bullets.

[Candor]

look at it this way, even easier to get 2 SEs on a creature http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

and the handgun (even with SE3) will never replace a fF inventory of melee weapons, we will still carry just one for those occasions we absolutely need it. So no need to feel like you're going to be replaced by a fF with 6 fully grinded 9* handguns http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif


On 2007-03-21 13:47, Rashiid wrote:
ur meant for pure damage!!!

there is no reason u should hav 11+ bullets.

that's why we should have 11+ bullets, increased damage and accuracy.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Candor on 2007-03-21 13:57 ]</font>

[TheRealFlow]

Well, if we are meant for pure damage, we should get the 30 bullets =P

And Akaimizu, I guess you're right but I would just love to have it for the same reason you said we should not =). I guess it's all on the person's job if they want it or not, but as a FF I would not mind the 30 bullets just to add to the FF's power. After all, we are the powerhouses of PSU.

[Akaimizu]

There's only 2 damage SEs, and they aren't compatible with each other. Only one of them can exist at a time. So even on Melee-resistant creatures (purely created to give gunners an edge) the Forte-Fighter will have the ability to still completely trounce a gunner for damage.

Bring on a FT, and now who possibly gets the shaft? The amount of posts I'll see about not-needing certain groups, will be amazing.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-21 14:01 ]</font>

[Candor]

I think most people missed the whole point of this thread, it's not like fF want to use handguns. hell i'd throw mine away if it wasn't for every damn flying enemy/boss. I left FG because i wasn't using guns as much as i thought i would, now as a fF it feels like they're being forced on me. I can only hope Slicers will resolve this issue http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Akaimizu]

Well I am technically forced to group with, at least, a high ATP-type and/or a FT as well. Lest I drop the difficulty levels down. Doesn't bother me, too much. I simply look to group with them, or limit my choices.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-21 14:10 ]</font>

[APEXi]

lets give em lv10 techs while we're at it

[Rashiid]

On 2007-03-21 13:55, TheRealFlow wrote:
Well, if we are meant for pure damage, we should get the 30 bullets =P

And Akaimizu, I guess you're right but I would just love to have it for the same reason you said we should not =). I guess it's all on the person's job if they want it or not, but as a FF I would not mind the 30 bullets just to add to the FF's power. After all, we are the powerhouses of PSU.



yeah fF get 30 bullets and not Figun? and we had to go thro ranger to get JUST for Lv 20?

in that case give fortetechers Lv 30 skills, and hell lets give fortegunners Lv 30 Techs!!

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-03-21 12:36, TheRealFlow wrote:
I say give us FF's the level 30 bullets. It's the only range weapon we can use, why not gives us some kind of boost and have a decent effect?



So you're saying the FF's raw ATP + handgun at lvl 10 isn't enough?
Are you insane? I don't know why certain FF's are so fixed on lvl 11+ bullets. Just be grateful the bullets weren't capped at lvl 1. They're not underpowered at all.
You think Fortechers will deal more damage with a 30 bullet handgun vs. FF's 10 bullet handgun?
FF's have no business dealing SE. Period.
Instead, their elemental damage is part of their melee damage within the melee weapons. As it should.

Just a reminder:
Fortefighter - An expert melee fighter focused on striking attacks. Weapon choice is limited but attack and defensive power is unparalleled.

I'll say again. FF's raw ATP makes up for the lack of bullets cap. It's meant to shoot things to ground them, then switch to melee.

The fact that FF's are in a disadvantage on aerial bosses just points out the FF's main flaws. It's just what's expected for the EXPERT fighter class.

Now you may argue that the fortegunner has more variety with their lvl 10 skills (spear/saber/dagger). But seriously, lvl 10 skills? It's a backup weapon. Same as handguns for FF's. ST seems to have made 3 basic melee weapons available to "most" classes. But there's only 1 universal ranged weapon. Unbalanced? Well, maybe. Maybe not. But it's just flair IMO for fortegunners + melee. It's not something to be taken seriously now is it?
Same as FT's. They get spears/twin dagger/saber/dagger; 4 OPTIONS! But come'on....

How about GT's? We only get 2 melee options capped at 10! (saber/dagger) The worst options of all classes. So you're saying if ST limites GT's to JUST sabers (for example) and upped our skills to 20 or 30, then it's suddenly fair for GT's and doesn't unbalance the game?

I don't hear GT's complaining about their lack of melee. So why aren't FF's content with their handgun?
oh.... it's just a measily saber... what's the big deal, right?....

[Candor]

On 2007-03-21 14:19, Rashiid wrote:

On 2007-03-21 13:55, TheRealFlow wrote:
Well, if we are meant for pure damage, we should get the 30 bullets =P

And Akaimizu, I guess you're right but I would just love to have it for the same reason you said we should not =). I guess it's all on the person's job if they want it or not, but as a FF I would not mind the 30 bullets just to add to the FF's power. After all, we are the powerhouses of PSU.



yeah fF get 30 bullets and not Figun? and we had to go thro ranger to get JUST for Lv 20?

in that case give fortetechers Lv 30 skills, and hell lets give fortegunners Lv 30 Techs!!


don't forget that fT already have lv 30 bullets and they never went through ranger either.

[Rashiid]

ah, but we use bows/cards. and thats from the start . so we need Lv 30 ones, especially since were the only class w/ S rank Bows/Cards.

[DikkyRay]

If you are a FF and using a handgun, you are fucking retarded
Why would i want a shitty lvl 30 bullet when i can pretty much kill everything with a lvl 30 skill
AND Most of the skills hit more enemies.
So lets use an equation!!11111one
400 damage (or so for a 9* handgun) + 30 bullet = MAYBE 700 dmg. If you are lucky, on one enemy

1400 damage(9* axe) + lvl 30 Skill = my friend did almost 2500 damage on 4 enemies.

Yay math prooves that if you use a handgun while being a FF,you fail at life! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Kaydin]

Fortefighters only use pistols to shoot birds down. It doesn't take 500+ damage to knock a bird down.

Besides, most Fortefighters make the Rangers do it.

[Rashiid]

well, its just a side weapon from a dagger/saber/claw.....

not really manditory, just an 'if ya wanna' weapon.

but, nevertheless, fF should be using 2handed weapons anywho.

[DikkyRay]

On 2007-03-20 18:03, Zorafim wrote:

On 2007-03-20 17:45, Rashiid wrote:
+ ur a fortefighter, u should hav mainly 2handed weapons anyway, take advantage of or 3 combos, and more power, since single swords are weaker then twin.



Because we all know how amazing it is to have the best atp in the game along with the best DoT weapons in the game when fighting an enemy that doesn't allow anyone close to it. Our three hit PA combos are amazing against Jarba's Dambarta, and our insane attack is priceless against Onma while he flies.


Its funny, if you have a high ice % armor, Dambarta doesnt affect you!
And i used a pistol against onma, it was funny. I have a lvl 10 cap, i was fine. Besides, what does shooting down the onma have to do with lvl 30 bullets? You won't be freezing him anytime soon

[Garanz-Baranz]

Ultimately, the Fortefighter only needs it's brute power for it's Handgun.

For example, my Lv46 Fortefighter does about 150-170 damage on a Lv20 Jusnagun with a non-light/dark 9* Axe[Ank Pikor, without use of a PA], whilist my swifter Pistol, which is only 7*[Raygun if i recall], can do about 150 damage[electric attribute btw] a pop.

The Axe, and posibly the Longsword, are the only weapons that can esentially beat a Handgun's power on a Melee resistant enemy with neutral effection, per hit, not in total.

Handguns are our Anti-air, just to knock Shagreece, Zoona, Tengohg, and Jusnagun outta the sky, and effectively damage Onmagoug, Dimmagolus, flying De Ragan, flying De Ragnus, and flying Zoalgoug.

That's the ONLY perpose for the Handgun on the Fortefighter.

If you wanna add one perpose, as 'to shoot Jarba at a distance' and 'to tag enemies for EXP'.

[Akaimizu]

There is a main reason for that. That High ATP actually makes the Handguns GOOD on a ForteFighter. Really, you guys complaining about just a handgun need to party with more Guntechers. Let's simply talk Raw Damage. Your *ahem* measly up to level 10 handguns. Try using them aside a GT that while their using Twin Handguns, a Rifle, or a Bow in general use. Watch how dangerously close your actual direct damage sticks with the GTs direct damage over time(take in the point of handgun shot rate, too). That's definitely enough to knock-down a flying creature you need knocked down. It is the raw Damage factor, of them, that brings them down. Now also remember that you are using what is basically a sidearm designed with the intention of giving you what is needed to allow you to hit every creature with something. Now you're comparing it to a class in which they are among our Main weapons in our arsenal.

I'm guessing that perhaps the FF is just not used to seeing average decent GT direct damage, from anything out there, so they figure the Handgun is weak. Yep, it's not like their melee, but the handgun has to have some reason for its secondary use. Now let's say we add Level 30 DOT bullets to that equation. Now we have what's supposed to be a FF's worst weapon doing the kind of damage among a GTs best, and even worse, having that ATP that can punch better damage than much of our gun arsenal.

I've already seen the fighter types do damage on certain Hive S creatures, from their *ahem* pitiful handgun directly than I could from the majority of my arsenal. They don't even get to see what single-digit damage means.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-03-21 15:39 ]</font>

[TheRealFlow]

Level 30 bullets for FF's YAY! Go FF's! So funny how people take it as if it's a life or death situation, chill people, I want the level 30 bullets because I'm a FF. FF own you!!!!

[HerdsmanOfYrr]

I havent used my hand gun since i was leveling up my job class to be able to become a fortefighter so i wouldnt care either way

[NPCMook]

On 2007-03-21 14:19, Rashiid wrote:

On 2007-03-21 13:55, TheRealFlow wrote:
Well, if we are meant for pure damage, we should get the 30 bullets =P

And Akaimizu, I guess you're right but I would just love to have it for the same reason you said we should not =). I guess it's all on the person's job if they want it or not, but as a FF I would not mind the 30 bullets just to add to the FF's power. After all, we are the powerhouses of PSU.



yeah fF get 30 bullets and not Figun? and we had to go thro ranger to get JUST for Lv 20?

in that case give fortetechers Lv 30 skills, and hell lets give fortegunners Lv 30 Techs!!

For once I actually agree with you... must be a cold day in hell today

Now if it were just Mayalee hit at level 20, then I'd totally agree... other then that, Nope

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NPCMook on 2007-03-21 17:18 ]</font>

[DikkyRay]

On 2007-03-21 17:25, Fulgore wrote:
Thank SEGA no one over there is listening to this Dribble! I like things just how they are and people need to suck it up if they can't play the game without whining.


You have said the most intelligent thing in this entire thread. Good job! I agree.

[Fulgore]

Thank SEGA no one over there is listening to this Dribble! I like things just how they are and people need to suck it up if they can't play the game without whining.

[NPCMook]

of course not... this game is presented by Sega... Not run by Sega http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Tsavo]

I think we fF's are fine the way we are as far as guns are concerned. What I don't get is fT level 30 spells and bullets. The only other class that gets level 30 arts in two areas is PT and they have to put in 10x the blood sweat and tears for less payoff.

[NPCMook]

S rank bows and S rank cards... this is the reasoning for them have level 30 bullets. I'd give up S rank Machine guns for S rank bows honestly I would o.o

[Tsavo]

On 2007-03-21 17:48, NPCMook wrote:
S rank bows and S rank cards... this is the reasoning for them have level 30 bullets. I'd give up S rank Machine guns for S rank bows honestly I would o.o


Yes, two high ATA weapons they won't be able to use until the endgame more than likely. Why? Cause techs do a pretty good job of tearing things up on their own. Its not like any of the other forte classes get lvl 30, or even 20 arts in other areas to make up for their short comings(and I'm glad they don't. Anything more and they would be broken). Leave the cards and bows to the folks who depend on them, like guntechers.

And yeah, Srank mechguns rock http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Helly]

I say Ff oughta be happy with what they got. Keep 'em at L10 bullets.

Give the bullet upgrade to Wartechers. That'd make the class abit more useful being at 20/20/20.

[Tsavo]

FO's aside, giving lvl 20 bullets to a class that doesn't have a single level in a ranger class makes little since to me. Give em left handed casting I say!

[Rashiid]

On 2007-03-21 17:16, NPCMook wrote:

On 2007-03-21 14:19, Rashiid wrote:

On 2007-03-21 13:55, TheRealFlow wrote:
Well, if we are meant for pure damage, we should get the 30 bullets =P

And Akaimizu, I guess you're right but I would just love to have it for the same reason you said we should not =). I guess it's all on the person's job if they want it or not, but as a FF I would not mind the 30 bullets just to add to the FF's power. After all, we are the powerhouses of PSU.



yeah fF get 30 bullets and not Figun? and we had to go thro ranger to get JUST for Lv 20?

in that case give fortetechers Lv 30 skills, and hell lets give fortegunners Lv 30 Techs!!

For once I actually agree with you... must be a cold day in hell today

Now if it were just Mayalee hit at level 20, then I'd totally agree... other then that, Nope


lol yeah it is purrty cold down there!

Mayalee hit would be nice at 20....

[NPCMook]

On 2007-03-21 17:59, Helly wrote:
I say Ff oughta be happy with what they got. Keep 'em at L10 bullets.

Give the bullet upgrade to Wartechers. That'd make the class abit more useful being at 20/20/20.

Thats what protranser should be at, since all their stats are soo low, I wouldn't see them out damaging nor overpowered

[landman]

I like single claw and my left hand has obviously a gun, my elemental bullets are all lvl 10 but I'm not buying the HP recovery ultimate bullet (which could be very useful as a fortefighter) because I can't lvl it enough to make it useful. I won’t say we "must" have a higher lvl cap but I’d love it (15 should be enough for me http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

And about “fighters are for melee” then why am I most times the only one with a gun fighting onmagoug in a group with techers and doublesabers?

[TouchOfRed]

if fighgunners don't get lvl 30 bullets y the hell should a non ranger class get them that's stupid they should get lvl 30 techs while we're at it

[amtalx]

On 2007-03-21 12:25, Candor wrote:

On 2007-03-21 11:57, amtalx wrote:
I think giving level 30 bullets to a Fortefighter would be way off the mark. After all they are a specialized class. The whole point of a specialized class is that they are good at one thing. Giving a specialized fighter legitimate ranged capability would unbalance the class.

So is a fG also a specialized class? If so then why do you get 3 options for melee combat including a freaking spear?! Or if you don't like that just shoot the enemy in the face with a shotgun or crossbow if it gets too close.

All I want is the same option to be useful when it's impossible for me to hit an enemy with melee. When i originally responded SE's were the farthest thing from my mind (i actually forgot my handgun could do that). And do SE3 even work on most flying monsters?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Candor on 2007-03-21 12:26 ]</font>


Yes we have 3 option for melee weapons but the number of options isn't what this post was about. Its the max bullet level. A Fortegunners melee skills are limited to 10, just like a Fortefighters bullets are limited to 10.

[Mio]

I would like to see these Fortefighters people that wants lvl 20/30 bullets to try a ForteGunner against the annoying multitarget monsters. After it tell me who's faster: A ForteFighter dealing with a flying monster or a ForteGunner dealing with a multitarget ranged resistant monster? You know the answer.


Why don't we abolish all the ranger classes and just give fortefighters lvl 30 bullets and all weapons equipabble! I think it's a GREAT idea they really need it! Yeah and also Traps, and Resta of course! Also give them MST 200% they need to resist magic as well!

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-03-21 17:48, NPCMook wrote:
S rank bows and S rank cards... this is the reasoning for them have level 30 bullets. I'd give up S rank Machine guns for S rank bows honestly I would o.o



I honestly don't get this as well.
Long range attack for FO's? What about Foie and other single target spells?
Want rare wands/rods? Why make them S rank then? Just make them C-A ranks like flourescent bulbs, harisen fans, etc. Want them class only weapons? Then why not make them FT only weapons? There's already armors that's class specific as well.
I fail to see why they'd need SE4 access when they already have techs with SE already built in them.
A rank or FT prerequisite bows/cards isn't enough?
Lvl 10-20 bullets on FT's aren't enough?

And true. IMO, FT's need 3 ranks in RA as well to buy into FT class.

Honestly, I don't see the reason on this either now that we seen FT's in action for months now.

But this is off topic...
*end rant*

[Xaeris]

I'd have to say nay. While handguns are rather pitiful with a 10 cap, they're excellent weapons, for a protranser especially, with a 30 cap. Combing the element coefficient of a 21+ handgun (19% I think) with a fF's beastly ATP would be pretty hax. Plus, there's the Lv 3 status effects and the fact that their Mayalee Hit would be broke as all hell.

Still, I don't disagree that the fFs got shafted in the secondary weapon department. The other two fortes can use polearms in addition to daggers and sabers where as fF got a piddly handgun. If I had to change it, I'd fix it so that fFs kept their 10 cap, but got A in shotguns. At 10, they wouldn't use it effectively as everyone else who can use a shotgun as it would only fire three projectiles as opposed to five so they wouldn't be stealing anyone's job. Plus, using it effectively would keep them in melee range anyway, so no ranger advantage lost there. Plus, it fits in with the style.

[Akaimizu]

That, in itself, wouldn't be as bad considering the current available stuff for a Shotgun. However, the only thing strange about this, is that it would make it seem like the only thing we're doing is just removing the Melee Resistant aspect of Monsters completely. When it comes down to it, would this basically serve the function of removing Melee resistance from the game? Just a question.

I guess the one thing I want people to consider is that, I see a lot of requests where someone wants a beef up just because they look at one or two Forte classes "they feel" got a little extra powerful; but completely don't even consider the other expert classes in the mixup. This game has a lot of subtle balancing aspects in order to give all expert classes a place. It's very easy for some of the suggestions to throw that delicate balance much further out of wack.

[Konstanse_Xx]

Uh..Ranger can use Polearms, Single Daggers, Saber...Fortegunner can use them at A...

They advance on the class you just took to 10

Force can use Bow, Saber, Twin Daggers, Polearms, Pistol...Fortetecher can use them at A(Cards if they came out on B would be a Force exclusive, I don't doubt that..>_>)

Hunter can use a Pistol, Fortefighter can use them...

They're freaking advanced classes, stop being greedy, the Pistol can be VERY dangerous, you have lethal ATP...GIVE THE FREAKING 30 BULLET CAP TO FIGHGUNNER, THEY USE GOOD GUNS,(Maybe GT have level 20 techs as well, 10 is a bit "Wtfha4x" IMO)

It's just using the same secondary weapons that their minor class should use. If you want to use good guns and melee, become a freaking Fighgunner or Protranser, I haven't seen WT's make a topic complaining about their level 20 Melee and Technic cap, and 10 bullet Cap...

If you think about the classes they come from people(those that say, "IT'S A PISTOL AND I CANT DO ANYTHING LIKE KILL THE FLYING THINGS") you pick another class, or a hybrid class, you're strongest physically by a longshot, and highest HP.


This is like complaining that Beasts should be given CAST ATA. o_o



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Konstanse_Xx on 2007-03-22 14:24 ]</font>

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2007-03-20 17:24, Shiroryuu wrote:
If they give us level 30 bullets, then they'd better give us longbows, I mean, longbows should be Hunter weapons, not Force weapons.


Longbows as Force weapons makes a great deal of sense for Phantasy Star Universe, actually. The first thing to remember, is that a "Hunter" is Phantasy Star's meleer class, where any other game would make it a Ranger class. This is historical, going back to Phantasy Star IV and the original Hunters' Guild. Most "hunters" were meleers, such as Alys Brangwin who primarily used slicers (and was also known as The Eight Stroke Sword), and Chaz Ashley, who primarily used swords, and sometimes knives. Interestingly enough, the only hunter previously appearing in a Phantasy Star game was Rudolf Steiner (Rudo) of Phantasy Star II, whose weapon choices would have made him a Fortegunner in PSU.

That being said, Bows as Force weapons is also historical to Phantasy Star, going back to Phantasy Star III, where Laya's staple weapon was a Bow. Laya was the historical leader of all magic-wielding people in Phantasy Star III (known as "Layans"), and her weapon of choice was a Bow.

For the record, I suspect that "Laya" is Laia Martinez's namesake, just as "Lutz" is Rutsu's namesake. Even now, we see Sega's localizers failing to do their research when localizing Phantasy Star...

[Xaeris]

That, in itself, wouldn't be as bad considering the current available stuff for a Shotgun. However, the only thing strange about this, is that it would make it seem like the only thing we're doing is just removing the Melee Resistant aspect of Monsters completely. When it comes down to it, would this basically serve the function of removing Melee resistance from the game? Just a question.

Giving every class an auxiliary means of damage doesn't necessarily remove the impact of enemies with resistance to a certain kind of damage. Being forced into using secondary means of damage is still an impact, if not quite as hard as being rendered useless. A gaozoran's melee resistance ensures it lives long enough to get some of its Foies off. The things wouldn't be nearly as threatening if they could be wtfpwned by a few Reddas now would they?

Edit:


For the record, I suspect that "Laya" is Laia Martinez's namesake, just as "Lutz" is Rutsu's namesake. Even now, we see Sega's localizers failing to do their research when localizing Phantasy Star...

In my mind, these mangled translations have always been done purposefully to simulate how history is time's *****. I'd say it's best demonstrated in the names of techs.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xaeris on 2007-03-22 15:58 ]</font>

[ThEoRy]

On 2007-03-20 17:24, Shiroryuu wrote:
If they give us level 30 bullets, then they'd better give us longbows, I mean, longbows should be Hunter weapons, not Force weapons.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2007-03-20 17:25 ]</font>


Bows are elegant, tactical, strategic, stealthy and complex weapons. Much like the ForteTecher class. They require a quited mind. As polished as the lake is calm, as a mirror would be.

Melee weapons are bold, reckless, courageous, and built out of rage. Much like the Fighter class. Melee weapons require a mind on fire. A blazen Forrest of hatefull memories.

One could never master the other.