Foreigners and Language

[Ma_Navu]

First thing's first, this is NOT a bash on immigrants who came here illegally, or anything of the sort.

Now that that's out of the way, time to relate a story: earlier today, I took a stroll down to Publix. Got everything I needed, except for some meat (No Dizzy, not cave meats). So, I went to the Deli they have. Since I live in South Florida, it wasn't a surprise that the woman who was taking orders was Spanish.

Due to the fact that I've lived here most of my life, I tried asking the woman for some ham in my poor, incorrectly structured Spanish. Apparently, she understood, and told me in an accent, "Habla en ingles. I know some."

This, to me, is a pretty neat thing. Not only do some of the foreigners take the time to learn another country's language, but the natives try learning the foreigner's language as well. Now, if only everyone was like this, instead of thinking, "Why do I have to learn their language? Screw them," we'd be living in a slightly more tolerant society.

[/analysis of society]

[DurakkenX]

your path of coming to what you are saying is flawed but what you are saying is fundamentally correct, however a few things...

The USA has no official language, but since it's foundation is english and almost entire society speaks english one should learn english to live in the USA

Most people who get mad at this in the current generation is not because they think that "omg why don't you learn english" but because almost everywhere english is taught as english is the single most useful language in business, and the fact that many people can but refuse to speak english.

Another thing to do is to speak in another language when you are in a public setting, such as school. It's just rude because it is excluding everyone else...If you are in a private setting or whatever do what you want but in general being exclusitory in any form in public is just rude.

[Ma_Navu]

On 2007-03-22 13:53, DurakkenX wrote:

The USA has no official language, but since it's foundation is english and almost entire society speaks english one should learn english to live in the USA

I understand that, it's just, there are people who believe that the immigrants should retain their foreign language when moving, without learning the language of the other country. I believe it is wrong to believe that, as well as its polar opposite, using only the new language without retaining the old, destroying whatever's left of their culture. It's good that some people actually try to maintain a balance instead of go to either of the extremes.


Most people who get mad at this in the current generation is not because they think that "omg why don't you learn english" but because almost everywhere english is taught as english is the single most useful language in business, and the fact that many people can but refuse to speak english.

Not exactly sure what you just said, but lemme try replying:

I'm not sure about the fact that that ideal is taught everywhere. However, I think that those who refuse to speak English are, as stated in my above paragraph, attempt to go to the "I won't learn their language, fuck 'em," extreme won't prosper at all in America. My point was, it's great that not all of the foreigners share that sort of mentality.


Another thing to do is to speak in another language when you are in a public setting, such as school. It's just rude because it is excluding everyone else...If you are in a private setting or whatever do what you want but in general being exclusitory in any form in public is just rude.

I understand that. The only reason I think it was okay for them to speak Spanish in my situation was the fact that my community is almost purely spanish. Like, 90% of the population is either from Cuba, Honduras, or any spanish country in that general area. But, but! If they were to move to, say, New York, they should be honing their English-speaking skills, unless of course, when speaking privately to a fellow Spanish-speaker.

[Allos]

Having lived most of my childhood in South Florida and having parents that still live in Broward county, I've experienced the situation you speak of firsthand.

I personally have no problem with the immigration and I also found it very interesting the time I was in Publix and could actually understand/get the general gist of what the Spanish speakers around me were saying (still can't speak it for shit though, lol). Anyway, the problem I have with the use of the Spanish language arises when I see the demands for everything in both English and Spanish. This is the situation where I have to say, you came to this country, make an attempt to learn English. If you're really trying then good for you, but more often, immigrants are coming and just not bothering. If you want the benefits of a nation without the input to earn them, it's kind of like spitting in our faces. And then some of them have the gall to bring out the "America has no official language" card. A nation that's spent 225 years predominately speaking English may not "officially" recognize English as its language, but its the truth. Of course you guys have already addressed this.

Anyway, I agree with what's been said about the balance between cultures, as I think it leads to better integration to society.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

I'm not sure that I can add much to this thread, except to offer my own support of the general opinion that's been explained, here. Personally, I think that everyone should be bilingual, though, I'm not exactly bilingual myself, but while I'm fluent in English, I have a great deal of familiarity with Spanish and French, the former from being exposed to it regularly by the simple act of living in Central California, the latter by taking a class in High School; lately I've found it odd just how much of it stuck.

This has been touched on already, but I'll reiterate it for emphasis. It is terribly important for a person living in the United States to know English. This is not a philosophical ideal, it is a solid fact. The reason is that persons unable to speak and understand English do not find success in America. If one is to live the American Dream, then one must share a common language with the majority of Americans. Despite what it may feel like in California (and apparently Florida, for that matter), the majority of Americans do not speak Spanish. English speakers get better educations and better jobs, because America's infrastructure is prepared to teach English-speakers, but not those limited to Spanish, Hmong, Farsi, French, et cetera.

So if someone tells you that you need to learn English, then it's not for their own good, but for your own good.

[RedBoxHunter]

I'm proud to have English as my first language. Since it's a very popular language and so many people worldwide speak at least a little, it feels nice to know that I'm one of the "majority". I tried to learn Spanish for six years but simply could not pick any up, so in eighth grade I dropped Spanish classes to take Japanese.

[Sinue_v2]

I agree that it's important to be bi-lingual, however I don't like the idea of spanish being forced on me or others because apperantly some minority groups don't feel it's important to speak English in a country that predominantly speaks english. Or maybe I'm a bit upset that everyday I see Indian, Chineese, Vietnamese, Mexican, German, ect immigrants who (while speaking their native tounge to each other and in their own homes/communities) put forth the effort to learn at least rudimentary english in an attempt to better assimilate into the country they migrated to.

Though that's just me... I believe that when you move to a new country, you should adopt that countrys language and laws, while being respectful of their traditions and cultural mannerisms.

That being said - I am not currently bi-lingual either. Though there are several languages I would like to learn - such as Russian, Swahili, Lakotan, and perhaps Greek or Latin as well.

[DurakkenX]

We americans get a bad reputation for our lack of knowledge in many things... most of it is because the schools teach almost everything wrong with wrong facts... Almost nothing in american history is correct and nothing but american and british history is taught. Geography is pretty much not taught at all. English classes that most take for 13+ years focuses on grammar but most americans still don't know how to use semi-colons, apostrophes, etc. Basic math is taught for far too long and repetitively. They need to teach calculus and various other high mathematics. And then then language...we have the choice of Spanish and sometimes French. Both latin languages that aren't really important and if you know english and or latin you can pretty much understand both. Languages that people want to learn or that are important are completely left out.

important languages are Chinese, Japanese, various arabic languages, english, german, and latin. These should all be taught to every person in the world, but they aren't unfortunately and most of us are called dumb because of it.

why?

chinese = dominantly spoken on the planet as china is the high population and it's becoming and business super power

japanese = Many things come from japanese and many cultures already interact why not jsut learn the damn language.

Arabic languages = Religion and History. Almost all current worldwide religions originate in an arabic language and it is best to read in the original language... also many doctrines are not translated.

english = covered this already >.> it's become pretty much the global language.

german = A lot of philosophers are german. You should read what the greatest minds think ^.^

Latin = it is a base langauge that can let you understand just about any european country's language and many old writings are still only in latin.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

All right... here goes...

What you don't seem to realize DurakkenX, is that the United States and Canada have two of the best school systems in the world. There's a lot of good school systems in Europe, and Japan's is quite good as well, but beyond those, the school systems usually aren't anything to really get excited about.

Next, I submit that any failings that Americans may tend to have with math and grammar does not come from the school system (granted, I know that American elementary schools are prone to changing reading programs every year, making a 5-year reading program absolutely useless), but from the simple fact that the stupid breed more, which results in a great deal of children that simply don't impart any effort whatsoever into absorbing that knowledge. So it's largely a parenting issue.

French and Spanish are common languages taught in High School in the United States because they are relatively easy languages to learn. Perhaps yours didn't offer it, but my High School offered Japanese, as well.

Nearly every religion originates from a different language. Judaism originates from Hebrew, Moslims have Farsi, Christianity's sacred texts are in Hebrew and Greek, Mormonism, Scientology and Evolutionism all are rooted in English, and so on and so forth.

While it's true that Chinese is the most spoken language in the world, you have to remember that it's pretty much only spoken in China, and more importantly, there's more dialects used all over the place than is really practical for a foreigner to learn.

Japanese probably isn't important to learn if you're not planning on making regular trips to Japan, regularly dealing with Japanese people, or enjoying artifacts of its pop culture, such as imported video games and Anime. If you don't have occasion to use the language, you will not retain it. The vast majority of Americans do not have any need for it.

Latin is a horrendously complex language, and I can't promise that understanding Latin will contribute to your understanding of Spanish, French, Italian or Portuguese anymore than understanding English will help you to understand Anglo-Saxon. Spanish, French and Italian are very simple by comparison, and it's probably a great deal less effort to just learn Spanish, French and Italian, than it is to learn Latin; knowing one of those three languages will already put you a great deal forward in the other two.

[Solstis]

French was, and still is a pretty important Business language. Very important regarding culture, far more important than Japanese to me (though Japanese pop culture is probably more diffusive than French art films). I regret not learning it, though that may change soon.

I was nearly fluent with Spanish, but, uh, I've forgotten most of it. Pretty sad, really.

[DurakkenX]

On 2007-03-23 08:19, HUnewearl_Meira wrote:
All right... here goes...

What you don't seem to realize DurakkenX, is that the United States and Canada have two of the best school systems in the world. There's a lot of good school systems in Europe, and Japan's is quite good as well, but beyond those, the school systems usually aren't anything to really get excited about.

Next, I submit that any failings that Americans may tend to have with math and grammar does not come from the school system (granted, I know that American elementary schools are prone to changing reading programs every year, making a 5-year reading program absolutely useless), but from the simple fact that the stupid breed more, which results in a great deal of children that simply don't impart any effort whatsoever into absorbing that knowledge. So it's largely a parenting issue.



Grammar problem exist through 4 generations... The point of English in america is to teach grammar more so than to teach litarary analasys. Those classes that do teach that is few and far between and more the discretion of the teacher. When there is reading in most class it more or less has a formulaic quiz about basic plot info. And if it's a book report you get maybe find the common story points...the parts where they have a similiar arch to a number of other books. It's more or less worthless and teaches nothing.

Math... while it is important... it's shoved down everyones throat and it's not like there is any options beyond algebra for most... more than algebra now adays isn't needed either in most cases and algebra is taught in middle school or before...and then we just keep kicking it down kids throats for the next 5-6 years. After the first year people stop caring and then are limited to taking that only.



French and Spanish are common languages taught in High School in the United States because they are relatively easy languages to learn. Perhaps yours didn't offer it, but my High School offered Japanese, as well.


I can't find any where in the local area that teaches japanese. I took Spanish, French, and Latin in my middle school/high school... They are incredibly simple.



Nearly every religion originates from a different language. Judaism originates from Hebrew, Moslims have Farsi, Christianity's sacred texts are in Hebrew and Greek, Mormonism, Scientology and Evolutionism all are rooted in English, and so on and so forth.


mormonism = christianity+ and it is disproven by history and intelligence...don't call it a religion.

Scientology = This is not a religion... and quite frankly anyone with any intelligence would realize how dumb it is.

Evolutionism = Not a religion. Evolution is a fact and can be seen in action every day.

middle eastern and eastern religions currently are the only true active religions...most anything that came out recently is not considered a religion by anyone that has any intelligence what-so-ever.



While it's true that Chinese is the most spoken language in the world, you have to remember that it's pretty much only spoken in China, and more importantly, there's more dialects used all over the place than is really practical for a foreigner to learn.

Japanese probably isn't important to learn if you're not planning on making regular trips to Japan, regularly dealing with Japanese people, or enjoying artifacts of its pop culture, such as imported video games and Anime. If you don't have occasion to use the language, you will not retain it. The vast majority of Americans do not have any need for it.



China is becoming a superpower in the markets... businesses look for those with experience in japanese and chinese for this reason. So it will soon be and already is a very important language to get ahead in this world.



Latin is a horrendously complex language, and I can't promise that understanding Latin will contribute to your understanding of Spanish, French, Italian or Portuguese anymore than understanding English will help you to understand Anglo-Saxon. Spanish, French and Italian are very simple by comparison, and it's probably a great deal less effort to just learn Spanish, French and Italian, than it is to learn Latin; knowing one of those three languages will already put you a great deal forward in the other two.


Latin is an easy language to learn and those who can't pick up basics of the other than that's just sad. In fact you understand other languages better once you learn latin simply because you can call out the base form and it's meaning.

[Banish]

On 2007-03-22 13:53, DurakkenX wrote:


The USA has no official language, but since it's foundation is english and almost entire society speaks english one should learn english to live in the USA



True, but under a world atlas, America's main language in English. Seond main language is Spanish.

[Neith]

Being multilingual is a very useful ability to have, and I'd recommend anyone try and pick up a second language- even if it's only basic phrases (if you're desperate, even 'Do you understand English?' http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif )

I speak English primarily, but know German fairly well (I could probably hold a conversation, but it's been a while since I was required to speak it), as well as a little French- though i've had a sleep since schooldays, and have subsequently forgotten 99% of it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

I remember being really thankful for knowing another language though- on a School Trip a few years back to Paris, we got lost in one of the horrendously busy areas. I had to ask a policewoman who was in the area how to get back to the rest of our group.

Only reason I know German though is from school study, where half of the school did French, and half did German, while the top students got to do both. I should keep in practice really.

As for speaking the native language- I think it's more out of respect. Hell, even saying things like Thank You, or Hello, if said in a native language I think you're thought of better by foreign-speakers.

[BoxerMcBoxe]

On 2007-03-23 03:28, DurakkenX wrote:
*bunch of stuff*
Speak Chinese in China, speak Japanese in Japan. Come to America/Canada, speak english/french(Quebec).

I'm not going to learn a useless language for my living situation because wapanese people think its cool.

[Sinue_v2]

wapanese people think its cool.

I thought the term was "Jank"?

Or is that what a wapaneese person is after they move to Japan?

(And before anyone gets pissy, "Jank" is a term invented by a white guy living in Japan who was tired of seeing anime nerds and resume padders infest japan to rape and pillage their culture and society as part of a career move or because "Japan is Bishi-kwaii!!" or whatever. The typical 1-year pass English Teacher who it only using the job (term used loosely) as a free vacation type. It doesn't apply to anyone who moves there and sincerely and earnestly tries to assimilate into their culture)

[Blitzkommando]

Latin would be a rather useless language when you go East of the German border as it wasn't the base for languages east of that general area except for Romania in which case Romanian is closer to Latin than any of the other romance languages as it has changed the least through history. German, as should be blatantly obvious, is a Germanic language. I won't get into the details but German, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, English, Icelandic and a slew of other languages are all Germanic languages and have very strong grammatical structure resembling more that of the older Upper and Lower German than that of Latin. Russia, the biggest country in Europe by both population and land area is based predominantly on Greek and a dialect of Norwegian from a group of people known as the Rus. Russian, like many Eastern European languages is Slavic. Going any further east from there into Eurasia results in near no Latin influence what with the various Arabic languages, Hebrew, Persian and the like being far older than both Greek (from which Latin was based on) and obviously Latin.

What I'm trying to say here is that Latin is far from the "Mother of all languages" that it is often portrayed as. For one thing, it in itself was based on Greek which would put Greek at being closer to a "mother" seeing as both languages in the east and west eventually derived from it. In all, there really is no one best language to study to get a headstart on any other language in the world. Latin can help when learning the handful of predominant Western European languages, but outside of that small handful (Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian are the main spoken today) there are few languages that have very strong Latin roots. Latin is generally most helpful when going into biology or other sciences, but many scientific terms are rooted in Greek, German, English, and French as well so there's no real advantage to be held there unless you are in a very specific field where it has predominantly Latin roots for the terms.

I appologize for going into such a long explanation, but as someone who focuses on linguistics and the origin of languages I find Latin gets far too much credit and other languages such as Greek not enough credit.

As for speaking English in the United States, we really don't. We speak a variant of it, American-English, and in a legal sense in a number of States we speak "American". Illinois sticks out for me in that respect in which the official language of Illinois is stated to be American. The United States as a whole does not have an official language, that is true, but a number of the States do in fact have their own official language which in all cases is American-English or American as in the case of Illinois.

Now, I have imigrants on both sides of my family just a generation (and other a couple generations) away from me, and they all have a feeling of, "Learn the language of the nation you move to out of respect for the people of that nation and to help yourself succeed in that nation." I have friends who are immigrants and they feel the same way. It's frankly like slapping all the people of the nation that invited you to move to it if you refuse to even attempt at learning their language. It's different to have poor language skils due to still practicing the language, but it's another thing to blatantly disregard the spoken language of a nation and refuse to even try to learn.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Norvekh on 2007-03-24 03:08 ]</font>

[DurakkenX]

latin is not based on greek ^.^ both are based on another language that only exists in writing today as "sanskrit"if i remember right. I don't have my notes on me to be sure.

You forget that most of the books were translated into latin and that is it. A great many of books still haven't been translated from latin and it being from one of the most advanced civs before our own it is good to know if not just for for literary purposes.

Latin is often considered the mother language because of that, but most french/spanish/english words and even made up words now adays can easilly be broken down and if you know latin you can easilly understand them.

Russian needs a revamp >.> They just use whatever letters they like to make up a word and then give it whatever sound they want. I do not accept it as a language!

[astuarlen]

Everyone's a linguist, eh? "Latin comes from Greek", "Latin comes from Sanskrit"? Uh-uhn. All these languages share a common theoretical ancestor, Proto-Indo-European, which is obviously no longer spoken today. But Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit are from three different branches of this large language family. To be sure, there are probably influences between these languages (loan words, for example), but to say Latin came from either Greek or Sanskrit is like saying humans evolved from orangutans.
Humm, this thread has gone seriously off-topic.

[BoxerMcBoxe]

On 2007-03-24 02:30, Sinue_v2 wrote:

wapanese people think its cool.

I thought the term was "Jank"?

Or is that what a wapaneese person is after they move to Japan?

No, I mean kids on the internet who think Japan is the coolest place on earth and hate their own country and have no idea what Japan is actually about.

[Blitzkommando]

latin is not based on greek ^.^ both are based on another language that only exists in writing today as "sanskrit"if i remember right. I don't have my notes on me to be sure.
Sanskrit is closer to a sister language in that it developed in a similar time period but it was hardly used as the construction or basis of Latin. Sorry, I guess I didn't specify, classical Latin was based partly on Attic Greek. From which Latin gained a number of its characters. Rome got much of its culture, and in turn language, from the Greek culture and language. Like I say, the alphabet (nurr nurr Greek-based word) is perhaps the easiest way to show this.


You forget that most of the books were translated into latin and that is it. A great many of books still haven't been translated from latin and it being from one of the most advanced civs before our own it is good to know if not just for for literary purposes.

Latin was used for translation of western works. Unfortunately the largest library in the ancient world, Alexandria, which undoubtedly held works in a number of languages outside of Latin was lost. To the Romans who sacked it first followed by another Roman, Again by yet another Roman, and finally by the Muslim hoards who finally burned (anything that was left unburned by the Romans) the entire thing to the ground. As for literary works outside of western Europe and portions of eastern Europe and south-western Asia that's about where the influence ends and where Arabic, East Asian, and African languages pick up.


Russian needs a revamp >.> They just use whatever letters they like to make up a word and then give it whatever sound they want. I do not accept it as a language!


Russian had a revamp not that long ago. It was part of the Soviet equivilant of the Cultural Revolution. The changes were drastic and the changes finished 'officially' by 1956. Nice of you to deny that what approximately 150 million people speak doesn't exist. And frankly if that's how you think of Russian you really shouldn't be saying anything about languages. No language is inferior or 'stupid'. Russian in fact is one of the most easily phonetic languages in the world, how you spell it is exactly how it sounds. That's more logical to me than say French or even English where you can have a string of letters that go unpronounced. All languages have odd, or seemingly strange or illogical laws to them. English has more double-meanings than the beach has sand, French has the strange numerical system, and Welsh has more consanants than a barn has bales of hay (and Hawaiian is the opposite).

Oh, and just for reference, Sanskrit is still spoken and used by around a billion people in India and surrounding countries (Thailand and such).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Norvekh on 2007-03-24 20:54 ]</font>

[Ma_Navu]

On 2007-03-24 07:59, astuarlen wrote:
Humm, this thread has gone seriously off-topic.

Indeed. I just state that it's nice to know that even in a place like Florida, Spanish-speakers try learning english, and vice-versa.

How this came to be of language origin, I haven't the slightest. o__o

[Stan]

as this is leading to nowhere, I can just blab something

Language is weird, (yay latin)

When you're living in an area with many immigrants or foreigners it it veeeeery handy to be bi(tri, or more)lingual.
I live very close to the German and Belgian border, so I regularly have to deal with German, French and Flamish(?, Belgian Dutch). If you want to get a decent job here, you have to be proficient in all of them (+ english of course).
That, I think, is the main reason why we have quite a few languages taught at school. At school I have learned (and am still learning) english (not really though), german, french, dutch (duh), latin and ancient greek.
Spanish is optional at most schools, a few also teach chinese and there are religious school that teach arabic, maroccain(?), turkish, hebrew etc.
You're not expected to be fluent in all of them except for english, german and french (which I not really am), because you'll use them quite often =p.
But in language's weirdness (like that yeah), being able to speak the local dialect is enough actually. Though the dialects differ around here, you can use the dialect of your village to make yourself understood in the border area of germany and belgium, but they will most likely not understand you at first if you'd use dutch...

It's kind of weird though. We are expected to be fluent in our neighbour's language, but they aren't learning our language (except for the Belgians). Yeah I know German is "more important" and such, but I hate the language <_< (sorry, but I do >_>) anyways, I know they're not doing it deliberately =p they just don't know dutch and they know I'll understand them anyways.
As for immigrants, as long as they try to learn the language and can make themselves understood, I'm fine with it. also, I think, they shouldn't forget their mother tongue, for that would be a loss of an important part of their culture. Their kids will learn the "new language" anyways, so no problems there =p
(Like I regret it that my mom never taught me malay (?) or indonesian. But she doesn't =/ , she's pushing her heritage away, which I think is regretful, but that's her choice to make)

blablabla (too bad if this doen't make sense >:3)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stan on 2007-03-26 13:20 ]</font>

[Thalui89]

I think that if someone comes to an english speaking society in which to live permanently then they should learn English otherwise life is going to be more difficult for them and other people, its also polite to learn the ways of that country.

In regards to speaking a second language i think that its a good idea IF you can. For instance i was taught french at school which i was fairly poor at heh only started to pick it up in my last year of doing it XP. But now ive got a close friend living in holland, luckily for me he speaks both english and dutch and since im in a dutch guild on wow im trying to pick up a few phrases just out of pure respect for them and to help me read their conversations when their amongst themselves and their tormenting me XP haha. But ya just phrases such as "Hoe gaat het?" (How are you?) ive found useful as it enables me to fit in better. What im saying is that in order to fit in better when your on holiday you really should try and speak that language if you can akthougfh i understand not everyone picks up languages easily.

[Daikarin]

On 2007-03-22 12:05, Ma_Navu wrote:
Not only do some of the foreigners take the time to learn another country's language, but the natives try learning the foreigner's language as well. Now, if only everyone was like this, instead of thinking, "Why do I have to learn their language? Screw them," we'd be living in a slightly more tolerant society.


Wise. I understand perfectly. But not all people think that way, unfortunately. Pride, lazyness, or for some other reason, they just don't see that sometimes there's a way to try and please all sides.