Good job ST.....(Aka: Is the balance good or sufficent) [Archive]

Akaimizu

Apr 10, 2007, 07:51 AM

Forces are amazing against enemy technics. It's just that they have a difficult start dealing with the early physical attackers that plague the earlier levels. GTs get hurt by everything and they're basically around 2nd to last place, when it comes to health. So they get a bit more health than the fT, but take nearly as much physical damage, and way more technic damage. They're the *real* vulnerable damage class in the game. However, they have it easier early game, where the monsters aren't fast enough to deal with their mobility. S-Class changes things a bit, where more and more missions have monsters that negate mobility advantages. And you get to see more stuff which unleashes Technics of death. (not counting Megid) The Forces really shine here. High level Technics hurt the GT as much or even more than fighter classes due to the lack of HP to cover for that little extra MST than a fF. Then, you have to use a little extra smarts. Monster manipulation. Trying not to make the mistake of getting too many monsters mad at you, you have to control what you attack to ensure the aggression isn't coming too closet to you. Yes, you want to avoid seeing a force get jumped as well, but carefully. Pull what you need to pull, and try to keep them at a distance so you don't die. I do sometimes get a little overzealous with the pulling, but I guess I'd rather be in trouble than see them being in trouble. That, and I tend to love cat and mouse games, a little.

I look at this game kind of like a fighting game. You have certain classes that are easier to just work with, others are technical classes which require a bit of deeper strategy to cope. Not to mention, you have different areas where you feel most vulnerable. Getting armor like that shiny 360K (NPC prices) armor, is super helpful to those feeling the pain.

[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-04-10 10:10 ]

amtalx

Apr 10, 2007, 07:52 AM

I think forces are just fine. More balanced than PSO where hunters ruled the world.

Akaimizu

Apr 10, 2007, 07:55 AM

You said it. Especially Dreamcast Version 1 Hunters. They basically did everything the Forces did and had the Defense, Hitpoints, and Attack Power to go with it. And yes, they even casted some mean technics (particularly for humans and newmans).

Lumaar

Apr 10, 2007, 08:25 AM

ForteTechers are hard to be. They balanced them pretty bad giving them the lowest HP and Defense(Dies too way fast). I hate the way they gave them really low HP. Its stupid, PSOs Forces have more HP, Tech Casting Speed and Wider Range. They can basically be untouched.

Over here, Force types are supposed to fight Close Range to give any Damage. Techs cast real slow, doesnt lock on, move slow and enemies can dodge it so you have to come real close to them and then die by the enemy. Thats so stupid, their tech casting speed gets slower as the tech level increases.

The HP is nowhere near as high as any class. The Basic Force that you start out with has more HP than ForteTecher and I thought that one sucked a lot but now its Fortetecher HP. They gain like 9-11 HP and 1/2 Defense while others gain 18-30HP and 2 Defense a level. Some have like 2 or 3 times more HP, PSOs were way more balanced with Force HP. HUcast or RAcast just have 50%-60% more HP than Forces which doesnt allow stupid kills. Low HP was great in PSO.

ForteTechers have been cheated big time, what a rip off. Their stats are really, really terrible and their fighting style sucks also. I dont think they like Technique Damage.

Forces here probably aren't meant to be damage dealers, using debuffs suck too. What the heck are they for?

I suggest they make the attack techs 1.5x stronger at least. They get attacked so easily. Whats their purpose?

Oh actually its just that I suck as a force. I bet they are really good if I knew how to be them but I don't so I think they aren't good enough.

Weeaboolits

Apr 10, 2007, 08:52 AM

On 2007-04-09 20:54, CoSine wrote:
Join the Revolution!
Nerf the CASTs! :D

They already got nerfed, no more HP regen, immunity, or ability to see traps... ;_;
But they can use techs now, too bad I don't care anymore... (How dare they change my precious Zonde! D:< RAWR!)

Sychosis

Apr 10, 2007, 09:39 AM

I've never understood the whole "Fortetechers are broken solo machines" thing.

While hunting for Halp Serafi, my solo run time was beaten by both a gunner (killer shot) and a melee fighgunner.

Dambarta does not perpetually hold everything in place, enemies walk right through it and rearrange my face.

babyeatinbob

Apr 10, 2007, 10:15 AM

NERF THE CASTS. Seriously they are overpowered and too good at everything save Technics. Human is supposed to be the race that can do every class decently while not exceeding at anything, but CASTs beat us in every class except fortetecher. Higher ATP, Higher Health, Higher ATA. Not to mention SUVs. They must be destroyed. Personally, i think they should get an ATP nerf so that humans will be better at melee, and CASTs can keep their ranged supremecy. And humans and newmans should get a racial ability. This thread is bound for flame war.

CyarVictor

Apr 10, 2007, 10:20 AM

I've been a force so i know what to expect and deal with. But to nerf a cast or any hunter class especially fF is ridiculous.

A)As a melee fighter, we have to pay out the ass for a good percent weapon to deal some major damage. A techer and ranger just have to buy a rod/wand/rifle and slap some bullets/techs and call it a day. Costs about 350k for a 9* where as a melee has to pay about 1.5-2mil for a 44% and 2.5-3.5mil for a 50%.

B)The beasts got nerfed off the back with loss of power and hp.

C)Hunters got nerfed with loss of hp and power

D)Most hunter PA's got nerfed the hell out of

E)Now techer or techer race aka newmans has ever been nerfed

F)Most whinning comes from poor/shitty forces who can't deal with expecting what their class is capable of

G)Casts are fine as they are, we sacrafice an extra slot/inventory space for an suv we have to pay for. We pay for armor that has an extra slot to utilize an suv. It's a one shot deal that has limited range and amount of hits. We have low evp, mst which means we take hits and lots of damage from magic.

H)Every race has it's up and down sides.

I)A force can do full damage to every enemy except for one or two enemies(Kogg Nadds/Gaozorans)

J)Most enemies have melee defense, especially big ones like jarbas or bots.

K)Melee fighters are the front walls who are there to take hits while forces are in the back raining artillery/support

Do I need to go on? Stop nerfing every other class or whinning about how forces get screwed cause they never have been. just because you can't do the job, that you're some shitty ass techer, doesn't give you the right to ask to nerf another class. I've seen and partied with a good number of great techers. I've also been around alot of lazy, ignorant ones as well. I also have a techer and i know how to roll with her. I give my team buffs, health, cures, then i will do some damage, but my team comes first before my own needs when i'm a techer.

Sev

Apr 10, 2007, 10:27 AM

The balance of the classes isn't what bothers me, it's the balance of the missions and the monsters. I still can't grasp why missions on Neudiaz have to be so much more annoying then missions on Parum. I like the Neudiaz stages, but it doesn't even seem like it's worth going there until your job is capped or unless you feel like playing around. And why the hell does the boss from Rainbow Beast have a 2 hit kill spinning attack?

CyarVictor

Apr 10, 2007, 10:31 AM

On 2007-04-10 08:27, Sev wrote:
The balance of the classes isn't what bothers me, it's the balance of the missions and the monsters. I still can't grasp why missions on Neudiaz have to be so much more annoying then missions on Parum. I like the Neudiaz stages, but it doesn't even seem like it's worth going there until your job is capped or unless you feel like playing around. And why the hell does the boss from Rainbow Beast have a 2 hit kill spinning attack?

I agree. Any class/race can be great, but the missions them selves seem off. If ST made it so every area of the same rank had about the same rewards, people wouldn't cluster f- around certain spots. Everyone would be every where, more items like Har/Quicks would be out for cheaper prices. Missions/Rewards is what needs to be rebalanced.

ShinMaruku

Apr 10, 2007, 10:42 AM

Ah good just the discussion I was looking for. The missons are retarded although if ypu have a bunch of OD folks not so bad but few OD.

CyarVictor

Apr 10, 2007, 10:58 AM

All levels of same rank with about equal rewards=everyone playing everywhere they feel like. Moatoob right now is a ghost town along with Neudaiz. And yet everytime ST tries get people to move to another local, everyone flocks there due to the higher pay offs compaired to other missions. I wouldn't mind seeing more missions like Bruce out there cause it actually creates a challenge. Just make those have a real good output so people are really driven to do them. i know, there may be elisits then, but then again people will actually be working hard to show up another group by doing it faster. Wouldn't mind seeing a in-game score board to see people's times instead of posts without pics....

Anyway, maybe not just balanced missions, but release more than just three at a time cause everyone flocks to the newer areas leaving others empty. I mean especially with AoI around the corner and that other MMO's are coming out.

pikachief

Apr 10, 2007, 11:00 AM

I still think Casts are the best class! its funny cuz they have good atp and hp and the best dfp and ata!

Since they almost never miss they end up hitting more damage as a fighgunner and forttefighter than a beast would! XD

A.K.A. people like me use u beasts for your beast mode. us casts can do the rest.

amtalx

Apr 10, 2007, 11:38 AM

I agree with Cyar about the missions needing more balance. When people were still running Bruce, I really had to adjust my character to be able to compete with the demand for Beast fighters (consequently learning how great shotguns are). When labs droppped, everyone wanted Cast rangers (good for me). The missions shouldn't lend themselves to one class/race combination.

CyarVictor

Apr 10, 2007, 11:42 AM

On 2007-04-10 09:38, amtalx wrote:
I agree with Cyar about the missions needing more balance. When people were still running Bruce, I really had to adjust my character to be able to compete with the demand for Beast fighters (consequently learning how great shotguns are). When labs droppped, everyone wanted Cast rangers (good for me). The missions shouldn't lend themselves to one class/race combination.

Thank you. I couldn't agree with you more. It's like how GoF is mainly techers with a few fG's who have kill shot handy or how Demon's Above is mainly a gunners paradise due to Tenghougs. It's just this demand for certain class/race for certain missions drives people nuts. I thought this game was there to play as what you wanted, not by supply and demand.

Rashiid

Apr 10, 2007, 11:43 AM

force? solo? since when could we solo?

it would take me hours to solo Demons Above S, or Plains overloard S, or any other S out there w/ a boss at the end. (and would be expensive)

fortetechers are far from overpowered, sum forget that were 100% vunerable while in casting animation.

ppls answer "get a me/ quick or har/quick"
my answer "get me 1-3mil, then we'll see"

it aint easy bein a force.

TorterraEndor

Apr 10, 2007, 11:43 AM

The balance is excellent.

Learn to play the game better before you complain about an imbalance.

Mikaga

Apr 10, 2007, 01:07 PM

Casts are fine as they are, we sacrafice an extra slot/inventory space for an suv we have to pay for. We pay for armor that has an extra slot to utilize an suv.
rofl. I never knew the other three races got free armor, or that Casts were not allowed to use a Mega / Stamina.

CyarVictor

Apr 10, 2007, 01:19 PM

I wasn't talking about that. I'm saying if you want to use an suv, that slot is sacraficed and second, we are limited to armor if and when we want an suv. I wasn't even talking about it like that. i wouldn't mind using a yamato claw and yamato line when the calw came out, but I won't be able to use an suv if i did. i'm saying it in that context, that casts to truely utilize their power of the suv, have to sacrafice cetain armors in favor of extra slotted ones, plus any units that can be equiped into those slots. Sure we can switch out units once the gauge is filled only to switch back when we are ready to fire off our suv, but still the luxary is not there at times. i'm not discrediting any other race. just proving a point against nerfing casts or any race for that matter.
the reason certain race/class may seem overly powerful is due to supply and demand that parties are looking for. Like how gunners/trap users are called for in Lab S2 along with a techer or two.

[ This Message was edited by: CyarVictor on 2007-04-10 11:20 ]

Mikaga

Apr 10, 2007, 01:36 PM

Extra slot waaah.
Ultimate effect being that you're capable of using SUV weapons, but if you don't want to then you're "nerfed" by being just as bad as the rest of us. Boo-hoo.

CyarVictor

Apr 10, 2007, 01:48 PM

Yea. Ok.... Anyway, looking at this plain and simple is that things seem to be powerful when the demand for that class or race(combination even) is high. i mean, Demons Above is not a walk in the park for a group of melee fighters where as a team of pure/combination of gunners and techers can easily breeze through. Missions like Bruce A on the other, tend to demand fF more so than any other class especially when they're beasts/casts with a lone gunner and techer. it's the same as having a whole deal on one gender being 'stronger' than another when in fact as Itsuki-chan had pointed out in an old post, there's a low 2-5% difference. Same goes for class/race. Just play what you want to play. understand limitations each race and class has. A team of anyone can demolish anything. this game was not designed for soloing.

ShinMaruku

Apr 10, 2007, 02:03 PM

On 2007-04-10 09:43, TorterraEndor wrote:
The balance is excellent.

Learn to play the game better before you complain about an imbalance.

Sufficnet, yes execlent? I don't think so. could have a little tweaking to match the 5% UF but still very good for an online game.

McLaughlin

Apr 10, 2007, 02:11 PM

It'd be nice if a weapon that's the size of me (IE an Axe) could do approximately the same damage as the loli sitting at the respawn line spamming Diga/Nosdiga/Dambarta/Noszonde. It'd also be dandy if said weapon didn't make me feel like a FOmar using a handgun.

Flwl3ssCowboy

Apr 10, 2007, 02:21 PM

On 2007-04-09 20:54, CoSine wrote:
Join the Revolution!
keep the casts the same except for making them sucky techers completely and maybe lowering their HP and/or ATP a bit! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[ This Message was edited by: CoSine on 2007-04-09 20:55 ]

fixed

amtalx

Apr 10, 2007, 02:21 PM

On 2007-04-10 09:43, TorterraEndor wrote:
The balance is excellent.

Learn to play the game better before you complain about an imbalance.

I don't have a problem with the class/race balance. I think that is fine. PSU just needs some mission balancing. Some missions are just fine, Crimson Beast as an example. However, I think it would be a hard point to argue that a team of primarily gunners would do just as well as a team of primarily fighters running Bruce.

XDeviousX

Apr 10, 2007, 02:26 PM

Forces can't solo? I killed de ragen solo with a lvl 4 force when I first started this game... Forces can solo if they play smart, a lot of techs hit more enemies then weapons and you can carry extra rod and wands to add to palets at down times, plus you can crystal warp to town to refill your gear at each block start which depending on what lobby you're at takes like 30 seconds. Raise your techs up higher and you get damage/higher SE/wider area effect/and better range!! Lvl 30 gidiga will own a small room of monsters and lvl 30 gifoi or gibarta will shield/damage any mobs trying to claw your face off...

chibiLegolas

Apr 10, 2007, 02:27 PM

This blows my mind. Are some of you upset that FT's have low HP?!
That's the sacrifice you have for having the most powerful TP and MST in the game.
FF and FT are min-max class, like so many other magic specialist classes in most RPG's. In this way it's balanced. Want more HP? Then you'll have to balance off a few things to get it.
Make a cast or beast FT, or become a WT. ST made sure that there's plenty of variations we can do with our race/class combo now. And please don't dismiss your buff + debuffs options you have in your disposal. That coupled with % armor all helps out in the end.

You can't eat your cake and have it too folks.

As for casts, please stop the cast envy/bashing....
They have their pros as well as cons, just like everyone else. If anything, humans could use a bit more of a boost. Not that casts should get nerfed. I say humans should have exclusive additions to their max PA slots. Give them an even 40 PA slots for example.

Quote by Mikaga:
Ultimate effect being that you're capable of using SUV weapons, but if you don't want to then you're "nerfed" by being just as bad as the rest of us. Boo-hoo.

wow.....
So CyarVictor's point falls on deaf ears. So be it. The only advise I have then is for those with doubt, is to go make a cast and play through till lvl 45-ish with them to see the flaws yourself. Creating/looking for good armor with high % AND extra slot limits your choices in what you will carry in a mission. Plus take up room.

And before others go on to say boo-hoo, one item slot in your inventory. Well, lets see, buff items, VARIOUS traps, and that one SUV, along with various weapons and heal items (like everyone else) does take it's tole if we need room for drops. Why are we even arguing about this? SUV that does damage once, MAYBE twice in a mission on mobs that deal a few hundred damage over time? Boo-hoo....
FTs and FFs are capable of dealing 1000 damage.

Please stop measuring your d1cks guys. This IS a co-op game after all.
IMO, that IS what you guys are doing in ANY unbalanced X flame war. I'm not as powerful as the other guy. etc. etc.
I secretly wanna be a HUmar with access to melee, buff/debuff, resta, AND use the spread needle to wanna totally OWN in the game.
.....

I've yet to see an SUV take mass kills away from the rest of the party before they get their hits in (unless the cast is too high leveled for the ranked mission overall). When used on bosses, it doesn't target their mulitple body parts. At least not the one I use anyways. SUV's are helping the group, not hindering them.
And I'm done with this conversation before it turns into a full out flame war....

Para

Apr 10, 2007, 02:28 PM

Mmm I think Casts have it good too because that theyre quite efficient on any melee and ranged class. Tech classes if any... only newmans and humans can really play decently (in terms of offense imo). Even so.. if there were more tech monsters in the game, maybe that would hurt Casts more since they lack MST.

Akaimizu

Apr 10, 2007, 02:41 PM

There are definitely a good amount of Tech monsters. Those are the main guys that hit for things like 1300+ damage in one single hit. Of course, certain classes kind of hurt any good MST advantage. The difference in MST for a Human and a Cast ,of many of the MST deficient classes, basically boil it down to who has the most HP to take very similar damage. So in that case, more tech monsters actually would hurt the human more.

Still. I feel things could be worse, and what we have is definitely workable. Nothing is perfect here, but it's all about dealing with the limits and finding a suitable workaround. At least those work, with a bit of elbow grease. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-04-10 12:44 ]

JAFO22000

Apr 10, 2007, 02:48 PM

On 2007-04-10 09:43, Rashiid wrote:
force? solo? since when could we solo?

it would take me hours to solo Demons Above S, or Plains overloard S, or any other S out there w/ a boss at the end. (and would be expensive)

fortetechers are far from overpowered, sum forget that were 100% vunerable while in casting animation.

ppls answer "get a me/ quick or har/quick"
my answer "get me 1-3mil, then we'll see"

it aint easy bein a force.

?? I solo Demons Above S in about an hour. Half hour to solo Plains Overlord S. GoF S, I think about an hour. (less if there are no Female Nemwans there!). DeRagnus S, a little over an hour, like 1:15 or so. Agata Relics S, 45 minutes (that's NOT being as efficient as possible). Moonlight Beast S = 1:15. I can't see how these levels can take "hours" for you. If you'd like some pointers, I can help.

On the flip side, I have a hard time soling the subway on S. Also, anything on Moatoob save VoC and Mine Defense is pretty much impossible, to me. I guess not impossible, but I'll get frustrated after dying 5 or 6 times.

ShinMaruku

Apr 10, 2007, 02:56 PM

Give me megistar and I can solo.. as a wartecher maybe....

Akaimizu

Apr 10, 2007, 02:56 PM

Demons Above S is rather good, for a solo. Especially in an hour. Then again, I still have levels to raise and I need to see what 70-80/10 can do.

The boss, on the other hand, I know I have to raise levels and get my new armor (which is taking a while for me to afford). I don't know if they adjusted his damage, but from what I remember, the boss at S can still 1-hit kill me.

Mikaga

Apr 10, 2007, 03:15 PM

Waah SUV is a curse!
How are you not getting this? If you throw away the SUV, then you're just like any other race! The only difference is you get the ability to cause massive damage, including automatic burn status!

Waah MST waah
Yeah, because a Cast taking 16 more damage than a Newman (FF/FI/FG/PT) is such a problem when you have 400~550 more HP in those classes...

lol techers sacrifice HP to have the best TP in the game lolol
...what? So in order to have something good a sacrifice is necessary? Alright then. Tell me what a Cast Fortefighter sacrifices. 'cause it's damn sure not HP, ATP, ATA, DFP, (useless) TP, (desirable) low EVP, (supposedly) low MST or the freaking super-ability.

JAFO22000

Apr 10, 2007, 03:34 PM

Yes, I am an 80/10 Fortetecher. Demons Above S: Dambarta for the Tengoghs (after debuffing them, of course!). Everything else there (Ageetas, Olgohman, Goshins, Ollaka) is pretty simple. Bring Laia and your PM. For the Onma fight, use a bow w/ ice bullets. Dodge his throwin' rocks until he lands. When he lands, run behind him. Laia and your PM should stop to fight him and will not follow you. He will concentrate all fire on these two, allowing you to continue running a bit further, then pull out your bow and shoot at his wings (his back will be facing you and he should not shoot at you). When he starts flying again, you can get underneath him to become invunerable to his throwin' rocks (but be careful if he drops back down or decides to fly through the middle!). This is a good place to rebuff/heal. Also, if he's shooting his throwin' rocks at you, you can stand on the other side of the map from him and they shouldn't be able to reach. Basically, when he lands, run behind him and make sure your PM (410 and 420 series are great for this) and Laia both stop to fight him and get his attention. This is where you'll do the most damage to him. It takes awhile, but you can S rank it if you worry about keeping Laia and you PM alive. If you don't care about the rank, just let them die (the fight will move a bit faster this way). Oh, beware his lightning! Know when he's going to shoot it and where you have to be to avoid it.

That's it.

Seira7

Apr 10, 2007, 03:50 PM

I really wish people would stop throwing around the idea of nerfing an entire race so lightly. My main is a cast, which I planned on making looooong before I knew anything of their stats, I just loved their looks. After seeing the character creation, I knew I had to buy PSU just to make a female cast^^

If they nerf just one race (which happens to be my main) I wonder how many people would flat out quit? I would rather see PSUs population flourish, not wither. "gee they nerfed my race, when is that age of conan comin out again?" I can see a slew of xbox 360 noobs that are obsessed with cast figunner cancelling their accounts XD.

Anyhow, cast sucks at magic (I finally got my GT's tenora wand to +9 yesterday, and with retier my heals still BLOW) and have low MST. And they made the 2 new classes evasion based, which means humans and newmans will excel at them (I hope) I think the solution lies in adding another techer class, that Newmans can rock at. Maybe one with exclusive spells? That would be cool.

Apr 10, 2007, 04:02 PM

Casts aren't broken, people just suck at PSU

McLaughlin

Apr 10, 2007, 04:11 PM

On 2007-04-10 13:50, Seira7 wrote:
I really wish people would stop throwing around the idea of nerfing an entire race so lightly. My main is a cast, which I planned on making looooong before I knew anything of their stats, I just loved their looks. After seeing the character creation, I knew I had to buy PSU just to make a female cast^^

If they nerf just one race (which happens to be my main) I wonder how many people would flat out quit? I would rather see PSUs population flourish, not wither. "gee they nerfed my race, when is that age of conan comin out again?" I can see a slew of xbox 360 noobs that are obsessed with cast figunner cancelling their accounts XD.

Anyhow, cast sucks at magic (I finally got my GT's tenora wand to +9 yesterday, and with retier my heals still BLOW) and have low MST. And they made the 2 new classes evasion based, which means humans and newmans will excel at them (I hope) I think the solution lies in adding another techer class, that Newmans can rock at. Maybe one with exclusive spells? That would be cool.

But anyway, Cast Fortefighter ends up with MORE EVP than we want, which forces us into an evade which not only wastes our PP, but leaves us vulnerable to the follow-up.

I think Mikaga just REALLY wants Summons.

Mikaga

Apr 10, 2007, 04:21 PM

When the hell did I say anything amounting to that? Summons would SUCK.

I'm not complaining because I'm "jealous" of Casts or their undeserved versatility. I'm complaining because I'm a big fan of balance and Casts are the RAmarls of this game. They compete with Beasts as Hunters, they beat "the all-rounders" at just about everything, and they can even capably play their one truly bad type of Fortetecher because the S-Rank Lv.30 bullet bows/cards, non-TP technics, notably better survivability and SUV for burning makes for quite a bit of compensation, as opposed to Newman melees who are the worst at EVERYTHING except ATA.

Neith

Apr 10, 2007, 04:32 PM

My Newman fT (Lv51, job level 2) owns Linear Line S faster than my Lv72 Beast fF. Mainly because Dambarta at 11+, and moreseo at 21+ is completely broken.

Deljabans can't even get a hit, the Dambarta keeps stunning/freezing them. Bel Pannons avoid it a little, but generally get caught in the ice. Sendillans seem to be the only enemy in Linear Line able to get through the barrier of ice, and those are easily downed by Foie/Diga anyway..

Fortetechers may have crap for HP/DFP, but they don't need it when some of their techs, combined with their crazy MST/TP make them offensive juggernauts.

With Dambarta 31+ getting Freeze Lv4 in Illuminus, it's gonna be even easier.

ThEoRy

Apr 10, 2007, 04:39 PM

On 2007-04-10 06:25, Lumaar wrote:
ForteTechers are hard to be. They balanced them pretty bad giving them the lowest HP and Defense(Dies too way fast). I hate the way they gave them really low HP. Its stupid, PSOs Forces have more HP, Tech Casting Speed and Wider Range. They can basically be untouched.

Over here, Force types are supposed to fight Close Range to give any Damage. Techs cast real slow, doesnt lock on, move slow and enemies can dodge it so you have to come real close to them and then die by the enemy. Thats so stupid, their tech casting speed gets slower as the tech level increases.

The HP is nowhere near as high as any class. The Basic Force that you start out with has more HP than ForteTecher and I thought that one sucked a lot but now its Fortetecher HP. They gain like 9-11 HP and 1/2 Defense while others gain 18-30HP and 2 Defense a level. Some have like 2 or 3 times more HP, PSOs were way more balanced with Force HP. HUcast or RAcast just have 50%-60% more HP than Forces which doesnt allow stupid kills. Low HP was great in PSO.

ForteTechers have been cheated big time, what a rip off. Their stats are really, really terrible and their fighting style sucks also. I dont think they like Technique Damage.

Forces here probably aren't meant to be damage dealers, using debuffs suck too. What the heck are they for?

I suggest they make the attack techs 1.5x stronger at least. They get attacked so easily. Whats their purpose?

Oh actually its just that I suck as a force. I bet they are really good if I knew how to be them but I don't so I think they aren't good enough.

I was with you up untill your 4th paragraph when it became painfully obvious that yes, you most probably do suck as a force. A true master of the techniques would never make such ignorant comments. I'm actually offended by what you have said. And I feel 20% dumber having read through your entire post. What are Debuffs for? Are you serious? No really, you actually feel that way? On the one hand you bitch about low hp and low def, but then you question jellen and zodeel. HELLO!!! They help you overcome your stat deficiencies.. U know what I'm not even gonna waste any more of my time.

Sylpheed

Apr 10, 2007, 06:01 PM

So, you want to make Force's MORE powerful? wow lets see they do the most damage compared to any other class so lets give them super def and HP at the same time so theres no point in any other class YES THATS IT!

*sarcasm*

Esufer

Apr 10, 2007, 06:21 PM

On 2007-04-10 16:01, Sylpheed wrote:
So, you want to make Force's MORE powerful? wow lets see they do the most damage compared to any other class so lets give them super def and HP at the same time so theres no point in any other class YES THATS IT!

*sarcasm*

I wholeheartedly agree. I also think that on top of these stat boosts, all forces should be able to Nanoblast, WHILE USING AN SUV, and spraying 360 degree Diga.

And I also think that Casts should have 0 ATP, because you know

In the terminator, those people were clearly far stronger than the big nasty machine.

So flesh is automatically stronger than metal, lololololol

Oh, no

wait.

This isn't DBZ, is it?

</pointless post>

CyarVictor

Apr 10, 2007, 06:25 PM

On 2007-04-10 14:02, PJ wrote:
Casts aren't broken, people just suck at PSU

Nicely put. Anything can be great and anything can suck. Just how you use em. And thank you chibiLegolas for your statements. A note to the mst part. It's not a 50pt difference, more of a 100-200pt. As my force of any force I've watched take a fireball from a gaozoran, they take about 200-300pts of damage where as a cast or beast will take 500+ pts of damage. I'm done here. People and their need for an e-penis. It's like trying to discuss a topic with a wall.

Mikaga

Apr 10, 2007, 06:36 PM

"A Newman wants to be better, that must mean they want to be better at casting magic and only magic!"
Hahahaha. Right.

I love how you guys massively exaggerate your "opponents'" arguments due to some misguided notion of destroying their credibility. The bottom line is that Casts shouldn't be horrible Hunters, but Casts are designed as Rangers. They just shouldn't be better Hunters than Humans because that obliterates their claim to "jack of all trades".

as my force of any force I've watched take a fireball from a gaozoran, they take about 200-300pts of damage where as a cast or beast will take 500+ pts of damage.
That's right. Fortetechers take significantly less damage than fighters. How that's relevant to races I'll never know.

[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2007-04-10 16:41 ]

Sylpheed

Apr 10, 2007, 06:42 PM

On 2007-04-10 16:21, Esufer wrote:

On 2007-04-10 16:01, Sylpheed wrote:
So, you want to make Force's MORE powerful? wow lets see they do the most damage compared to any other class so lets give them super def and HP at the same time so theres no point in any other class YES THATS IT!

*sarcasm*

I wholeheartedly agree. I also think that on top of these stat boosts, all forces should be able to Nanoblast, WHILE USING AN SUV, and spraying 360 degree Diga.

And I also think that Casts should have 0 ATP, because you know

In the terminator, those people were clearly far stronger than the big nasty machine.

So flesh is automatically stronger than metal, lololololol

Oh, no

wait.

This isn't DBZ, is it?

</pointless post>

LOL, oh how that post made me laugh

Inazuma

Apr 10, 2007, 07:12 PM

and here i am thinking FT had the best defense in the game. pretty much the only time i die is when i get stunned or 1 shotted from megido instant kill. if your not dead instantly, you can just heal yourself w/ resta or mates. but if your not careful, or unfamiliar w/ the area/monsters, you can find yourself dead pretty quick. but once you learn the mission, it shouldnt be a problem.

i think hunters have the worst defense actually. yea they have great HP and defense stats but they put themselves the most at risk by fighting up close. from my exp, hunters die the most often.

as for offense, the FT is one of the strongest in the game. they certainly dont need a boost there. pretty much the only monster i really have a hard time against is the jarba. im fine w/ dodging all of his attacks but the problem is, it takes me quite a long time to kill em. i do not use bows or cards at all. i mostly burn w/ foie and then use nosudeega until the burn wears off.

i like how forces work in PSU and cant wait for the expansion. splitting em into offense and support types will be really fun.

pikachief

Apr 10, 2007, 07:46 PM

On 2007-04-10 16:25, CyarVictor wrote:
[quote]On 2007-04-10 14:02, PJ wrote:
Casts aren't broken, people just suck at PSU

im still trying to convice people that casts are better fighergunners and forttegunners than beasts, because casts have high atp (not as high as beasts but still pretty high) and they almost never miss!

The damage might be less but it still adds up! My character is a male cast with like around 740 atp! (yes thats with an arm slot)

and its forttegunner just cuz i dont like the big slow forttefight weapons but i have had other male casts experiment.

if u still dont believe me i will show u in the 360 version. I have gotten lvl 10 hunter just to show u people that i CAN be a great forttefighter.

cuz casts are THAT awesome! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

McLaughlin

Apr 10, 2007, 08:04 PM

On 2007-04-10 16:36, Mikaga wrote:
They just shouldn't be better Hunters than Humans because that obliterates their claim to "jack of all trades".

The other part of that proverb goes "...master of none."

Sexy_Raine

Apr 11, 2007, 12:57 AM

Fortetechers are not overpowered. Just because we get good damage, easy element access, support techs, long range/multi-range, status effects and easy pallette set-ups doesn't make us the greatest thing ever! We have crap HP, and can't fight anything up close. Quit bitching about nerfing us, we're good the way we are.

P.S., Cast are overpowered.

MrNomad

Apr 11, 2007, 01:20 AM

FT's have range attacks though >.> They dont hafta run up and attack an enemy up close. And they dont have good damage, they have the "best" damage. CASTs arent overpowered

Mikaga

Apr 11, 2007, 01:26 AM

The other part of that proverb goes "...master of none."
Ah, so you're saying it's okay for Casts to be the master of all (but one) trades?

FT's have range attacks though >.> They dont hafta run up and attack an enemy up close. And they dont have good damage, they have the "best" damage.
Let's see... Diga/Foie that misses at range and needs to be shotgunned into an enemy's face. Ra techs that only work short/medium range. Gi techs that only work close-range. Dam techs that... you probably see where this is going. The only "long-range" technics are the three Nos techs and you pay through the nose to cast those.

"Best" damage? I don't know. If that means "biggest numbers" then yes, but...

[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2007-04-10 23:29 ]

Alisha

Apr 11, 2007, 02:10 AM

FT's are broken but its not the damage they do that makes them broken,its the fact that they are the most versatile of the fortes. if you think a FT can outdamage a FF on a neutral mob you are mad. i'm gonna pull some numbers out of my ass here but bare with me. lets say a FT hits a monster with foie and does 500 damage in 1 hit.now lets say a FF does a pa that hits 3 times and hits for 200 on each hit wich means not only did the FF outdamage the FT they probally did it at a lower pp cost too.

ShinMaruku

Apr 11, 2007, 01:15 PM

Well apearanly ST been readin too much Hrof Kraki....

Apr 11, 2007, 01:22 PM

On 2007-04-10 23:20, MrNomad wrote:
FT's have range attacks though >.> They dont hafta run up and attack an enemy up close. And they dont have good damage, they have the "best" damage. CASTs arent overpowered

sorry MrNomad but Cast's SUV just really hit the enemies really hard...lol. Although fortetecher might have range attack doesnt mean that the enemies wont target him/her first. I could sworn when i was playing my fortefighter all of the enemies just rush for the FO i am playing with and totally ignore me unless i hit them...lol.

CyarVictor

Apr 11, 2007, 01:43 PM

On 2007-04-11 11:22, BunnyGirl wrote:

On 2007-04-10 23:20, MrNomad wrote:
FT's have range attacks though >.> They dont hafta run up and attack an enemy up close. And they dont have good damage, they have the "best" damage. CASTs arent overpowered

sorry MrNomad but Cast's SUV just really hit the enemies really hard...lol. Although fortetecher might have range attack doesnt mean that the enemies wont target him/her first. I could sworn when i was playing my fortefighter all of the enemies just rush for the FO i am playing with and totally ignore me unless i hit them...lol.

Yea, but watch what happens when a gunner starts raining bullets into a crowd. Then you'll see the enemies flock towards them especially if their using twin handguns. Next part is that the SUv has to be aimed, doesn't move once it fires, tends to knock enemies out of range. Exception is Sturm, Blitz, Hegel, and Meteor. Grom and Rafal are by the damage dealing SUV's, but knock the enemies away and have a cone of attack in the front. You missing an enemy with a spell is your own dam fault. Anyone who says another race is overpowered is just a jealious little loser who can't play this game worth shit. Either gain some skills or stop whining. It's like a bunch of brick walls in kindergarden. PSU is not a hard game to play and catch on.

SolomonGrundy

Apr 11, 2007, 02:46 PM

a few things that have not been mentioned:

1. "force" armor tends to have significantly higher DFP than hunter armor, and lower equiping requirements, making Force DFP more like ranger or even Figunner.

1a. these armors also have exactly the right slots (everyting but arm), to favor a casting type FO

2. Forces, via techs AND bows, have access to status effects, the most important of which is DoT, and perhaps confuse

3. Hunter (FG, fF, PT) MST does not vary enough to make race matter. THAT's why casts are supreme at Hunter type jobs.

4. ATA > ATP for 2 reasons. High end ARM units seem to favor sacrificing a moderate amount of ATA for a large amount of ATP (essentially making as other races as good as Beast or Better). Also the two high end Hunter weapons (Axe and Double Saber) have low ATA.

5. High HP vs. high MST/DFP is a trade off. High HP will save you from 1 hit KO, where high MST/DFP will save you from getting nickeled and dimed to death. Having both (looking at WTs here), is the only thing thatreally makes you tank-y.

6. More significant enemies are bullet and melee resistant than tech resistant. anyone want to argue that an ageeta, is harder than a robot?

7. soloing while earning S rankings is MUCH harder in PSU than in it's predesessors. Can you do it? Of course! But only in some areas, and usually with a great deal of difficulty/time.

with all that being said, I would say Casts are a little too strong. Thier downsides are only relevant in 1 class (GT cast can't equip A rank wands ever), and thier upsides are too good to pass up.

I would also say FiGunner is a bit too good, as is ForteTecher (and Wartecher, truth be told). These classes have access to all the things they need to be self sufficient, and don't really depend on other classes. And that's sort of a bummer for all the classes that can't do that.

and a personal rant: I think fortefighters have it the toughest - (no SEs, low MST, and poor selection of Arm and body units)

McLaughlin

Apr 11, 2007, 04:38 PM

On 2007-04-10 23:26, Mikaga wrote:

The other part of that proverb goes "...master of none."
Ah, so you're saying it's okay for Casts to be the master of all (but one) trades?

The Beasts I know show me up at Fortefighter. The Newmans and Humans I know kick my ass at Fortetecher and Guntecher. I'd say Humans and Casts break even at Wartecher. The only thing we're "masters" at are Fortegunner and possibly Fighgunner. I say possibly because Fighgunner offers adequate ATA for Beasts to be able to hit the broad side of a barn.

SolomonGrundy

Apr 11, 2007, 04:43 PM

The Beasts I know show me up at Fortefighter. The Newmans and Humans I know kick my ass at Fortetecher and Guntecher. I'd say Humans and Casts break even at Wartecher. The only thing we're "masters" at are Fortegunner and possibly Fighgunner. I say possibly because Fighgunner offers adequate ATA for Beasts to be able to hit the broad side of a barn.

How can this be? You have higher DFP, *far* higher ATA and and only 70 less ATP at 60/10
If the beast equuips solid hit S (+30 ATA/-30ATP) and you equip mega power, you are 6 ATP ahead of Beast and 21 ATA ahead as well.

Mikaga

Apr 11, 2007, 05:23 PM

The Beasts I know show me up at Fortefighter.
I stopped reading.

McLaughlin

Apr 11, 2007, 05:28 PM

Beasts get a discount as Fortefighter. Their weapon use less PP. Also, I have a Solid / Power S equipped (for when I play as Fighgunner, which is my main class). Also, I have higher EVP which means I parry more often, which gets me nailed quite a bit.

I don't know if it's my play style or what, but he always out-damages me.

McLaughlin

Apr 11, 2007, 05:31 PM

On 2007-04-11 15:23, Mikaga wrote:

The Beasts I know show me up at Fortefighter.
I stopped reading.

You stop reading every time someone's experience contradicts your opinion?

Sychosis

Apr 11, 2007, 05:34 PM

On 2007-04-11 15:28, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
Beasts get a discount as Fortefighter. Their weapon use less PP. Also, I have a Solid / Power S equipped (for when I play as Fighgunner, which is my main class). Also, I have higher EVP which means I parry more often, which gets me nailed quite a bit.

I don't know if it's my play style or what, but he always out-damages me.

As far as I know, EVERY fF gets a PP discount. Also, Male CASTs have the lowest EVP in the game...

Mikaga

Apr 11, 2007, 05:43 PM

Male CASTs do. Obsidian_Knight is just grasping at straws.

Casts get similar ATP and HP as a Beast at Fortefighter, yet far better ATA and a little better DFP. Their lacking EVP is good, their lacking MST is equivalent to roughly 2 points of damage per enemy tech, and their lower TP is irrelevant.

Depending on view/preference, Beasts may still be better than Casts, but they do not automatically "show up" all Casts. Which is kinda the overall problem.

McLaughlin

Apr 11, 2007, 07:45 PM

On 2007-04-11 15:34, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-04-11 15:28, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
Beasts get a discount as Fortefighter. Their weapon use less PP. Also, I have a Solid / Power S equipped (for when I play as Fighgunner, which is my main class). Also, I have higher EVP which means I parry more often, which gets me nailed quite a bit.

I don't know if it's my play style or what, but he always out-damages me.

As far as I know, EVERY fF gets a PP discount. Also, Male CASTs have the lowest EVP in the game...

Sion outdoes me, right?

McLaughlin

Apr 11, 2007, 07:46 PM

On 2007-04-11 15:43, Mikaga wrote:
Depending on view/preference, Beasts may still be better than Casts, but they do not automatically "show up" all Casts. Which is kinda the overall problem.

For the record, that wasn't what I meant to imply.

Sychosis

Apr 11, 2007, 07:50 PM

On 2007-04-11 17:45, Obsidian_Knight wrote:

On 2007-04-11 15:34, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-04-11 15:28, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
Beasts get a discount as Fortefighter. Their weapon use less PP. Also, I have a Solid / Power S equipped (for when I play as Fighgunner, which is my main class). Also, I have higher EVP which means I parry more often, which gets me nailed quite a bit.

I don't know if it's my play style or what, but he always out-damages me.

As far as I know, EVERY fF gets a PP discount. Also, Male CASTs have the lowest EVP in the game...

Sion outdoes me, right?

Dunno, I've only ever played with Sion twice, and never bothered to compare his hit/miss ratio with yours.