which race received the unfair treatment? lets VOTE!!! [Archive]

Mikaga

Apr 11, 2007, 03:31 PM

On 2007-04-11 11:52, Shiroryuu wrote:
I don't get the whole votes for the Beasts, they are the best at one class, and for those "Rangers do damage" people, they may be as good as, if not, better CASTs in Ranger too, not to mention that they aren't as bad as Force as CASTs either. Oh yeah, did I mention that they got Nanoblast? Yeah, they are easy targets, but they sure can lay down an ass-kicking.
• gg Accuracy against enemies with a shred of EVP. Attack from behind? Sure, but that takes time.

• Beasts better forces? Hate to say it, but that's arguable! A Force nanoblasting would be counterproductive but a Cast could SUV (Sturm = free burn) and rebuff.

* Casts get the ATA to support a FT's nice ranged capabilities whereas Beast FT has the worst ATA in the game period.

* Then there's all the nonattack techs that aren't affected by the awful TP of both races...

---

The most depressing thing about this is, if you go with Cast > Beast for FT then Cast are not the worst at any class, but the best in (depending on your views/preferences) between one and six!

Edit: WHOA! I completely missed the point of the post.

Yeah, Beasts are pretty balanced, I feel. Great Hunters (though their nanoblast could stand to be buffed at higher levels, or 32%+ weapons mean it becomes a waste of time), worse Rangers than Cast/Human (how it should be) and pretty naff Forces.

I feel Beasts are the only race that's remained true to their assigned stereotype.

[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2007-04-11 13:36 ]

Kiku

Apr 11, 2007, 03:43 PM

On 2007-04-11 11:34, chuck_norris wrote:
male beasts cause we almost NEVER get luck were lucky if we get lvl1....

Reason for this: WAY to many people are beasts, it wouldn't be fair for almost everyone having 3* luck, no would it?

reason why some other races tend to get more luck is because there are less of them.

Vergil_Sparda

Apr 11, 2007, 04:05 PM

I contanstly tell humans they're phailures at life. With their boring ears and they're wasting of the space. This topic makes me smile http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif, humans sux!

DavidNel

Apr 11, 2007, 04:09 PM

I'm going to have to vote for NPCs. They never get luck, no elements, and they talk really bad. How can you say you're worse than them?

Kura-X

Apr 11, 2007, 05:03 PM

we all know the best race is the Vanda. Seriously. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Newmans, Humans, Casts, and Beasts all suck in comparioson to the might Vanda

KamiSori

Apr 11, 2007, 06:31 PM

its no suprise that people who play humans "dont have any problems" with them, thats what theyre there for. your not supposed to have problems with a human in any class. i think the problem with humans is that they just dont stand out as anything. they need to have at leat one class they can be best at and i also think if sega merely added in some decent crea weapons it would make a very big difference.

Xaeris

Apr 11, 2007, 07:46 PM

* Casts get the ATA to support a FT's nice ranged capabilities whereas Beast FT has the worst ATA in the game period.

It's important to remember that racial differences shrink as the stat multiplier decreases. At 80, the ATA difference between cast and beast fTs is 50. That difference is a drop in a bucket when the ludicrously high ATA of fans and bows is worked in. For example, give them both an Ulteri; the beast now has 434 while the cast has 484. Then, throw in the 72% accuracy nerf applied by a Lv 30 bullet; now it's 313 and 348.

The accuracy advantage casts get is nice, but really...unless the class in question has "gun" somewhere in its name, it's nothing to go proclaiming superiority over.

Shiro_Ryuu

Apr 11, 2007, 09:34 PM

On 2007-04-11 16:31, KamiSori wrote:
its no suprise that people who play humans "dont have any problems" with them, thats what theyre there for. your not supposed to have problems with a human in any class. i think the problem with humans is that they just dont stand out as anything. they need to have at leat one class they can be best at and i also think if sega merely added in some decent crea weapons it would make a very big difference.

Well, some people [like me] don't really care much about "shining", "standing out", or being some number cruncher. If I did, I would have made my human a beast a long time ago.

TorterraEndor

Apr 11, 2007, 09:44 PM

On 2007-04-11 13:31, Mikaga wrote:
I feel Beasts are the only race that's remained true to their assigned stereotype.

The only one you can even argue that didn't is CAST. Newmans stereotype is force classes(This is PSU, not PS, bring up old games and die). Humans stereotype is not shining at anything, and they don't.

Casts suck enough at being a FO, and take way too much technic damage(The HP does not compensate for it) to justify saying theres a race balance.

Frankly, a stereotypical party with a female newman FT nuking shit, random other fighgunners, fortefighters and perhaps a fortegunner would suck, because if you're gonna use stereotypes, the FO wouldn't cast buffs, and a human will outdo a CAST at DPS with a FO that does buff.(I'm not going by exact numbers because I don't crunch them, just by experience)

Soukosa

Apr 12, 2007, 03:40 AM

So a thread about which race gets the most unfair treatment turns into a war about which race is the best? Figures. Even complete with the narrow minded weirdos that thrust forth their ideals of casts being better than everything else in the game as if it's fact, when it's far from it.

Same old, same old. People are never gonna learn that the game's quite balanced, are they?

AweOfShe

Apr 12, 2007, 04:16 AM

The only thing that needs tweaking and/or re-adjusting in this game are people's negative-ass attitudes. Heh.

Arika

Apr 12, 2007, 06:18 AM

, Cast and Beast can good with everything by their ATP , even they are FT, they still get Bow/Card option
But Newman, they good only TP, if they use no-tech class, they are worst ;_; .
Vote for newman !!

Eleina

Apr 12, 2007, 08:06 AM

Human coz well Bruce is human and who would want to be the same race as that guy http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
Nah just kidding there are no races who get unfair treatement some just excel in certain domaines where others fail but thats the way the game is!

APEXi

Apr 12, 2007, 08:49 AM

there are no shitty races, just shitty players, thats what i always say.

Sychosis

Apr 12, 2007, 08:57 AM

It's like arguing the existence of tiers in fighting games. Yes, some characters are better than others, no, it does NOT make the others "shitty" but there is no denying that when controlled by a player of equal skill, a higher tier character will outperform the lower tier one 9 times out of 10.

Hyda

Apr 12, 2007, 09:43 AM

Its not the char, its how you play as the char. Ive been in some parties that a level 59 or 60 would do much better than a level 80 or two.

PsyX

Apr 12, 2007, 09:50 AM

In terms of lacking things? Humans by far >.>

"Your race's special power is the fact that you can do most things. But not well. But not bad. Mmm. Satisfying, no?"

Though to be honest I don't really care for all the "OMGZ CAST CAN OLY PLEY TEH GUNZ CUZ OTHRWIZ U IZ GIMPD ND TTLY SHT RLY" or "WTF NEWMANZ IZ 4 FRCEZ ONLEH OMG OMG OMG", hence why I went for a human ForteFighter. He might get slapped around a lot more by monsters (and might consume dimates like I do Jack Daniels on a drinking binge) than a beast FF, but I don't care. =]

CyarVictor

Apr 12, 2007, 10:55 AM

I believe it's the pannon, rappy, lapucha, and polties who get the most unfair treatment. I mean, the polties are tiny green bastards that mind their own business till a hunter strolls along with an ank and bats em off after salad chopping them. Or a pannon is just staring at the air only to be hit by a small flaming rock. And lapuchas.... come on now, a weird bald guy named Bruce seems to have some kind of thing for them: "They're cute, but there's no time for that now." <---Really, what is he implying with the lapuchas during Bruce runs? Rappies are a given since we hunt them and pluck their feathers.

I'm actually surprised at the number of humans out there. I don't think one race is under another. I believe the mistreatment comes out of jealousy or lack of skill so saying one race is overly powerful as an excuse. If any race has had unfair treatment, they would be the beasts and casts with all this hate. All I hear is newman surpremacy or bow down to your newman gods. Casts seem to take more of the verbal blunt while beasts(the males mainly) take it by not having 3* luck for months on end.
Newmans could be shafted by almost being singled to one class, but that's what you get for wanting an tech expert race.
Both humans and newmans get shafted for having their population infested by noobs, giving them both the weaker image and faulty skills.

For once can we actually have a good topic like why does Bruce seem like aweirdo instead of this race and class hate, or why do these people who complain suck in-game?

[ This Message was edited by: CyarVictor on 2007-04-12 08:57 ]

chibiLegolas

Apr 12, 2007, 12:15 PM

On 2007-04-12 08:55, CyarVictor wrote:
I believe it's the pannon, rappy, lapucha, and polties who get the most unfair treatment. I mean, the polties are tiny green bastards that mind their own business till a hunter strolls along with an ank and bats em off after salad chopping them.

LOL. So true. And all they do is cast defense up on themselves to defend against the offenders.

If ST doesn't tweek any races in the beta, then that's a signal that they themselves think the racial options are balanced already and don't need tweeking. So be it.

If any race is unbalanced, it's not by much to say that it breaks the game. I'd hate to imagine that "fixing" anything we already have might make things worse in the unforseeable future.

Akaimizu

Apr 12, 2007, 12:55 PM

Why oh why did you have to dramatize it so much. It really does make the times, when Mufonna loses it, look so cruel. *sniff* No! She's a nice girl.

danny_o

Apr 12, 2007, 01:21 PM

I kind of wish newmans could get some race-exclusive items, like some wicked claws or something like. I would totally go back to Wartekka if that were the case...

Kaydin

Apr 12, 2007, 01:22 PM

On 2007-04-12 11:21, danny_o wrote:
I kind of wish newmans could get some race-exclusive items, like some wicked claws or something like. I would totally go back to Wartekka if that were the case...

It's called the Halarod.

CyarVictor

Apr 12, 2007, 01:23 PM

Creas

Mikaga

Apr 12, 2007, 01:42 PM

On 2007-04-11 19:44, TorterraEndor wrote:

On 2007-04-11 13:31, Mikaga wrote:
I feel Beasts are the only race that's remained true to their assigned stereotype.
The only one you can even argue that didn't is CAST. Newmans stereotype is force classes (This is PSU, not PS, bring up old games and die). Humans stereotype is not shining at anything, and they don't.
I love how you "pre-empt" my supposed argument with something I would never say.

But you kinda proved my point. "Newman stereotype is force classes" and just look! Wartecher are more about scrapping in the middle of enemies - gg Newman - and Guntecher/Acrotecher are more about support. Which Newmans are no better at!

Their stereotype is force classes, but just like a tabloid, this is horribly exaggerated. All Newmans can do is Fortetecher.

Casts take way too much technic damage(The HP does not compensate for it) to justify saying theres a race balance.
Please actually listen to me for once. MST is freaking useless unless the character is a Fortetecher. The damage difference for most classes is typically less than 20 between Cast and Newman. So useful. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif - either way, yes, the HP does compensate for it and more.

[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2007-04-12 11:47 ]

Mystil

Apr 12, 2007, 02:58 PM

On 2007-04-11 10:43, Ethan-Waber wrote:
Humans for three simple words...

they just suck. =[

SolomonGrundy

Apr 12, 2007, 03:20 PM

Please actually listen to me for once. MST is freaking useless unless the character is a Fortetecher. The damage difference for most classes is typically less than 20 between Cast and Newman. So useful. - either way, yes, the HP does compensate for it and more.

Newman WT/GT vs Cast WT/GT.

Newman MST useful (megid immunity). Cast MST...not useful. So, 3 classes...out of 9. Not too shabby.

Shiro_Ryuu

Apr 12, 2007, 03:27 PM

A Newman WT's MST is actually better than a CAST fT's MST.

TorterraEndor

Apr 12, 2007, 03:42 PM

On 2007-04-12 11:42, Mikaga wrote:
I love how you "pre-empt" my supposed argument with something I would never say.

But you kinda proved my point. "Newman stereotype is force classes" and just look! Wartecher are more about scrapping in the middle of enemies - gg Newman - and Guntecher/Acrotecher are more about support. Which Newmans are no better at!

Their stereotype is force classes, but just like a tabloid, this is horribly exaggerated. All Newmans can do is Fortetecher.
Just lol, you don't even play PSU do you?

WT is way better using technics, I'd know, I have a female newman one and she does way more damage with techs than with melee weapons. GT, yeah, is more suited for other races, but newmans aren't nearly as terrible at it as you think. AT is a newman type cause its just a FT with less attack, more support(level 30 attack techs is still good, and WT gets it too, so...)

Please actually listen to me for once. MST is freaking useless unless the character is a Fortetecher. The damage difference for most classes is typically less than 20 between Cast and Newman. So useful. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif - either way, yes, the HP does compensate for it and more.

And you obviously aren't very good at math, 250 vs 500 = 20? Go play Forested Island S with level 40 Cast and Human, see who gets owned first(And if someone says two 40s duoing it is too unrealistic, then you aren't as good as me). Maybe in C its a 20 damage difference, but some of us like to make it challenging.

[ This Message was edited by: TorterraEndor on 2007-04-12 13:43 ]

Schubalts

Apr 12, 2007, 07:05 PM

Well, that's it.

Now there will never be peace in Gurhal again. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_no.gif

Mikaga

Apr 12, 2007, 07:35 PM

ROFL, 500 vs. 250? Unless you're talking about Newman Fortetecher, my response is "HAHAHAHA no."

Stop believing the exaggerated stereotypes and hearsay. If two LV40 Fortefighter/Fighgunner/Protranser/Fortegunner characters - one Newman, one Cast - were to stand in the same place and take Olgohmon Barta, the Newman would die first. Haven't crunched the numbers with Guntecher or Wartecher, but I expect the result would be the same.

I simulated the actual difference MST makes between a Newman non-techer and a Cast non-techer aaages ago because the pitiful "lol MST is good lolol" argument has been nothing but an irritation for months now. Here's it quoted, with adaptations to laugh at your "numbers":

Method:

Let myself get nailed by Megid from S2 difficulty Deljaban under two independant conditions, three times per condition:

- With a Me-senba equipped (+70 MST)
- With no line shield equipped (+0 MST)

This 70 MST difference closest reflects the difference between a Newman and Cast at most of the "combat" types - Fortefighter, Fighgunner, Fortegunner and Protranser - at Lv.80/10.

Furthermore! I repeated the test. Once as a Fortetecher (highest MST), once as a Fortefighter (lowest MST) to ensure that proportionally the type-based MST base does not have a notable influence on the results.

Results:

Fortetecher w/ no line shield: 113 damage average.
Fortetecher w/ Me-senba (70 MST): 97 damage average.
---
Difference made: ~16 damage.

Fortefighter w/ no line shield: 201.33 damage average.
Fortefighter w/ Me-senba (70 MST): 190 damage average.
---
Difference made: ~11.33 damage.

------------

Conclusion:

70 MST causes almost no significant difference in TECHNIC damage received. Certainly not "250 vs. 500" difference.

Also, throughout the four combinations tested (having 455 more MST as Fortetecher than Fortefighter), the MST difference can be simply modelled to a reasonable degree of accuracy with "Every 5 points of MST cuts damage by 1".

(Actually the "5 MST is roughly equal to 1 HP" thing has been floating around for a while. I'm just surprised how accurate it seems to be.)
So can we finally stop arguing this nonsense? Casts (and Beasts) have hundreds more points of HP, and scarecely take tens of points more damage. It is not a pretty picture for Newman non-techers, despite people's stereotype-based beliefs.

Zael

Apr 12, 2007, 07:45 PM

On 2007-04-12 17:35, Mikaga wrote:
So can we finally stop arguing this nonsense?
no

Shiro_Ryuu

Apr 12, 2007, 07:47 PM

Looks like we'll have to try for ourselves about this non-fT MST theory.

-Shimarisu-

Apr 12, 2007, 08:05 PM

On 2007-04-12 13:20, SolomonGrundy wrote:

Please actually listen to me for once. MST is freaking useless unless the character is a Fortetecher. The damage difference for most classes is typically less than 20 between Cast and Newman. So useful. - either way, yes, the HP does compensate for it and more.

Newman WT/GT vs Cast WT/GT.

Newman MST useful (megid immunity). Cast MST...not useful. So, 3 classes...out of 9. Not too shabby.

I've played human GT, and cast GT. They are about equal in my mind. Humans get the bonus for the class, the damage difference between the two is negligible, both can set off virus and fire, but human has way better MST. Yes, it matters, GT is a hands on ranger, playing with closer range weapons. The TP too, matters. It matters now that humans must stay close range in order to heal, and have better MST to handle closer range attack techs while doing so. It will matter moer when we get level 30 support techs, because a human's resta is going to be far more potent.

The ATA doesn't matter jack. Trust me. I haven't had trouble hitting thing on m human GT since job level 3 or so, and I use 1* rifles in S2 to take things out with killer shot. Really, the only thing yuo should consider with human vs cast GT is:

Human=better resta. After the expansion is out, a very POTENT resta at that. Better MST too, more sturdy at medium range healing with tech projectiles getting in the way.
Cast=gets SUV. Think you need SUV? Go cast.

ALL OTHER STATS ARE SIMILAR ENOUGH TO BE NEGLIGIBLE.

On the subject of WT:

The reason why newman WT is the WORST WT is WTs ARE MORE FOCUSED ON ATP, NOT TP. No amount of "But my newman WT does waaaay more tech damage" will change this. Ignore the 3 hunter, 5 force req, clearly an oversight on SEga's part. The class is clearly focused more on melee, with a large arsenal of weapons equippable at A rank and daggers at S rank. Your newman WT does way more tech damage because that's how the race is balanced. Not the class. I may as well cite the argument "FT is more about bullets. My cast FT does WAY more damage with bullets, so it MUST be about bullets."

WT has awful TP, frankly. To make the class work, you should focus on ATP and make TP secondary. Also, even with their much worse TP, put a grinded W'gacros on a newman and beast WT and the beast WT will do 4/5ths the tech damage of newman, but WAY, WAY more melee damage. Newmans make the worst WTS, PERIOD.

If you make your newman a WT you basically create a character that is gimped in both ATP and TP.

If you make your BEAST a WT, you create a character that is only slightly gimped in ATP, and with tech backup to make soloing far easier. Tech backup that is gimped. Like a Hunewearl in PSO. This should be the TRUE model for WT.

NEWMAN WTS SUCK. THEY HAVE (less than?) HALF THE MELEE POWER AND HALF THE TECH POWER OF THE FORTE CLASSES.

Yes, a skilled player can make them work, but jesus christ PLEASE stop trying to claim you made the best class choice. Actually, wait for Acrotecher. Looking at the stats this is actually a GREAT class for newman. Sure, people can argue that support techs can be done by anyone. But what's this? Acrotecher can only equip daggers and whips as melee weaps. That is IT. You are SUPPOSED to use those attack TECHS too... only 10 levels below a Fortetecher, and with barely less TP than FT they'll still do stellar damage on a NEWMAN.

I'm making my newman AT. Humans can manage this class fine too. Take it from me though, it's pointless on a cast or beast, because given the extremely limited melee you are supposed to be using those attack techs as WELL as supporting.

-Shimarisu-

Apr 12, 2007, 08:09 PM

Actually it's probably worth pointing out here that a human GT can get easy immunity to techs too.

I could, with better % armour but I prefer not to play this class like a COMPLETE pansy.

omegapirate2k

Apr 12, 2007, 08:11 PM

LULZ BEASTS, OUR NANOBLASTZ ARNT BROKENZ ENUF!

TorterraEndor

Apr 12, 2007, 08:17 PM

Ok, whatever, I agree to disagree. MST is with more than its given merit, combined with elemental armor and such, but whatever. This isn't even a topic for it.

You ignored the fact that newmans make great GT and WT AND AT, on top of FT. How many classes do you want something to own at before its balanced?

CASTS make good fighgunners, fortegunner/fighter, GT, possibly AF, protranser I don't know enough about to say. So 5 to 4, and CASTs own newmans out of the water? Please.

[ This Message was edited by: TorterraEndor on 2007-04-12 18:19 ]

DonRoyale

Apr 12, 2007, 08:18 PM

Newmans, without a doubt.

-No HP.
-No ATP.
-No DFP.
-Despite them having second-highest ATA, the classes where it does best (WT, fT) have the lowest ATA of the classes.
-Their TP does them no good when half the enemies have twice as much MST as DFP.
-Their MST does them no good when they have no HP to back it up with.
-No STA. (If that even matters.)

But while we're at it, let's see how the other classes stack up, shall we?

Humans:

-Apparently, you people seem to think that the gap between humans and newmans' HP is so small because the gap between human HP and CAST HP is so large. The gap's actually quite bigger than you think.
-Same applies for ATP.
-And DFP.
-Humans are good at any class, so ATA isn't an issue.
-TP and MST aren't something humans are good with, since enemy TP/MST is so absurdly high.

CASTs:

-High HP.
-High ATP.
-Highest DFP.
-Highest ATA.
-TP/MST is the only burden. And if you've even half a brain, you're partying with someone who's churning out healing.

Beasts:

-Highest HP.
-Highest ATP.
-High DFP.
-Lowest ATA, the only problem that makes them horridly fail almost all classes.
-Low TP/MST makes for tough runs, but again, the idea of having a Force around helps.

So, if we look at everything, we do agree, Newmans have it worst off, no?

Mikaga

Apr 12, 2007, 08:30 PM

On 2007-04-12 18:05, -Shimarisu- wrote:
I've played human GT, and cast GT. They are about equal in my mind. Humans get the bonus for the class, the damage difference between the two is negligible, both can set off virus and fire, but human has way better MST. Yes, it matters.
...for all of 12 damage. Yet the Cast has ~150 more HP. Woot.

On 2007-04-12 18:05, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Better MST too, more sturdy at medium range healing with tech projectiles getting in the way.
Cast=gets SUV. Think you need SUV? Go cast.

ALL OTHER STATS ARE SIMILAR ENOUGH TO BE NEGLIGIBLE.
Maybe so, but it doesn't change that they're all in the Cast's favour now, does it? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

On 2007-04-12 18:05, -Shimarisu- wrote:
The reason why newman WT is the WORST WT is WTs ARE MORE FOCUSED ON ATP, NOT TP. No amount of "But my newman WT does waaaay more tech damage" will change this. Ignore the 3 hunter, 5 force req, clearly an oversight on SEga's part. The class is clearly focused more on melee, with a large arsenal of weapons equippable at A rank and daggers at S rank. Your newman WT does way more tech damage because that's how the race is balanced. Not the class. I may as well cite the argument "FT is more about bullets. My cast FT does WAY more damage with bullets, so it MUST be about bullets."

WT has awful TP, frankly. To make the class work, you should focus on ATP and make TP secondary. Also, even with their much worse TP, put a grinded W'gacros on a newman and beast WT and the beast WT will do 4/5ths the tech damage of newman, but WAY, WAY more melee damage. Newmans make the worst WTS, PERIOD.

If you make your newman a WT you basically create a character that is gimped in both ATP and TP.

NEWMAN WTS SUCK. THEY HAVE (less than?) HALF THE MELEE POWER AND HALF THE TECH POWER OF THE FORTE CLASSES.
Hahaha, we finally agree! That's one for the history books!

On 2007-04-12 18:05, -Shimarisu- wrote:
But what's this? Acrotecher can only equip daggers and whips as melee weaps. That is IT.
Love how you conveniently "forgot" about the whole "Twin Daggers which are far faster for Acrotecher" thing.

On 2007-04-12 18:09, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Actually it's probably worth pointing out here that a human GT can get easy immunity to techs too.
If the Human is immune to a technic, chances are the Cast (with the same shield) is, too. On the rare occasion where the Human is -just- about immune, the Cast can just throw on a Sori / Mind.

Of course, this is set to change in AoI since GT's MST % modifier grows as it levels and thus the Human/Cast difference will increase.

On 2007-04-12 18:17, TorterraEndor wrote:
Ok, whatever, I agree to disagree. MST is with more than its given merit, combined with elemental armor and such, but whatever.
You didn't even know that MST and elemental line shields operate in completely separate ways? Hahaha!

On 2007-04-12 18:17, TorterraEndor wrote:
You ignored the fact that newmans make great GT and WT AND AT, on top of FT. How many classes do you want something to own at before its balanced?
How are you not getting this? They don't make great WT/GT, and even AT is disputable.

On 2007-04-12 18:17, TorterraEndor wrote:CASTS make good Fortefighters, Fortegunners, Fighgunners, Guntechers, Wartechers and Protransers. So 6 to 1, and CASTs don't own Newmans out of the water? Please.
Fixed.

[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2007-04-12 18:32 ]

Soukosa

Apr 12, 2007, 08:45 PM

On 2007-04-12 18:30, Mikaga wrote:

On 2007-04-12 18:05, -Shimarisu- wrote:
But what's this? Acrotecher can only equip daggers and whips as melee weaps. That is IT.
Love how you conveniently "forgot" about the whole "Twin Daggers which are far faster for Acrotecher" thing.

Correction, ALL MELEE weapons are SLIGHTLY faster on AFs and ATs. It's maybe like putting on a Devil/Battle on PSO. Nothing much.

Also, don't argue with Shima about GTs. She knows what she's talking about with that class as she actually has experience with it. Unlike you, who doesn't seem to have much experience with anything and just sits here as a pathetic cast fanboy while crying that newmans are pathetic since you can't seem to figure out how to use them to their fullest.

Seriously, anyone who says that casts are the best WTs isn't worth listening, let alone someone that insists that excel at 90% of the classes over other classes. There is more to this game than HP, ATA, and DFP. ATA racial stats on a gunner class are rather pointless to, since eventually you'll get enough ATA, even on a beast and once you get there, any further amount is next to pointless. Go make a lv 80 gunner and maybe you'll actually see this.

-Shimarisu-

Apr 12, 2007, 08:48 PM

On 2007-04-12 18:17, TorterraEndor wrote:

You ignored the fact that newmans make great GT and WT AND AT, on top of FT. How many classes do you want something to own at before its balanced?
[ This Message was edited by: TorterraEndor on 2007-04-12 18:19 ]

They do not make good WTs, and humans make equally good ATs.

Humans make better GTs, they are a good 70 points of ATP higher and iirc only 40 or so below cast. That's a bigger difference, and the TP doesn't come into it because the difference between human and newman for this class is so small.

Humans beat out newman in job versatility. They make better ATs than cast, they make very SIMILAR GTs to cast, sans SUV and with better resta and MST durability.

The only job newman is best at is FT.
They are slightly worse than human at GT.
They equal human at AT, I think.
They make terrible WTs.
They are the worst at all other classes.

Humans are roughly equal to cast at GT and fighgunner. Which both races are best at. The only clear concern here is do you want SUV, or MST?
They make the best ATs, tied with newman.
They make the second best FTs.
The third best FFs, which they are not terrible at.
The second best fortegunners - well that's arguable because fortegunner ATA is so high that beasts are fine at it. The worst fortegunner is in fact, newman.
They make the second best, or third best WTs depending on whether you prefer cast at this job.
They make the best Acrofighter, tied with casts.

If you care about stats, you should only pick newman if you want to go FT or AT.

HUMAN IS BETTER AT ALL OTHER JOBS.

They are arguably the best GTs, ATs, fighgunners and AF, albeit tied with some other class.

Newmans are the best FTs and ATs, the latter tied with some other class.

That's it, PERIOD.

You want sheer versatility? Go cast.
You want sheer versatility with good teching power? Go human.
You want power, and a class that's actually fine at its perceived worst job (fortegunner)? Go beast.
You want to blow stuff up? Go newman.

Newman loses out in all but FT and AT.

Shiro_Ryuu

Apr 12, 2007, 09:16 PM

On 2007-04-12 18:48, -Shimarisu- wrote:
They make the best Acrofighter, tied with casts.

OMG, you know, if you're refering to humans, this has just made my day. ^0^
But what's wrong with Beast?

TorterraEndor

Apr 12, 2007, 09:33 PM

Double edit: You know? Fuck it, your agenda is always just to make newmans seem so horrible(And for some reason woship CASTS), when they already are a balanced race, but you don't look outside HP/ATP/ATA to realize this, so it just isn't worth my time. Every thread that even mentions races you jump in and try to make it seem like newmans have it so horrible, when its your own fault if you make a newman a shitty class. Either make them FT(And then AT later on) for a good newman character, or make them a shitty class and not bitch. Because you only have yourself to blame if you do.

I find it somewhat amusing though, you say humans suck, and newmans suck, and casts rock. But you push the newman agenda for some reason and ignore humans? And then you say its ok for beasts to fit their FF stereotype, but god forbid newmans touch their FT stereotype.

Hey PJ
WT are given 30 attack techs for no reason whatsoever
and given the worst support of the FO classes for no reason whatsoever
Casts are awesome WTs

[ This Message was edited by: TorterraEndor on 2007-04-12 19:52 ]

-Shimarisu-

Apr 12, 2007, 09:46 PM

Their ATP sucks balls on NEWMAN.

Their ATA matters not as a melee class in later levels.

Newmen make the worst WTs. How this is not blindingly obvious is beyond me.

[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-12 19:46 ]

Apr 12, 2007, 10:04 PM

HMMM

I DON'T LIKE ATTACK TECHS ON WARTECHER EITHER, NOPE, THEY CERTAINLY ARE NEVER USEFUL ANYWHERE LOLOLOL

The melee attacks, as a wartecher, would be used to push enemies away/down, not for damage. But LAWDY, HELL NAH, MELEE HAS TO BE USED

More lololz here

Guntecher; here's why Newmans will be good (Read; will). Resta. Need ATP as a Guntecher? Hell fucking no? You use guns for SEs. So, newmans are great Guntechers, since they do their job as SEs, and have a non-shitty Resta, unlike CASTs.

There ya go.

Sychosis

Apr 12, 2007, 10:20 PM

I think this sums up the "class/race matchups don't matter, it's all about skill" argument:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6712/1871macwb3.jpg

Mikaga

Apr 13, 2007, 01:31 AM

On 2007-04-12 19:33, TorterraEndor wrote:
Double edit: You know? Fuck it, your agenda is always just to make newmans seem so horrible(And for some reason woship CASTS), when they already are a balanced race, but you don't look outside HP/ATP/ATA to realize this, so it just isn't worth my time.
Here's a suggestion: Try looking at this objectively instead of first assuming they are balanced and then trying to find out reasons why.

Or... maybe you've finally decided to try that and have seen what little use MST really provides for most expert types. That would explain the sudden directional change with this post.

But you push the newman agenda for some reason and ignore humans? And then you say its ok for beasts to fit their FF stereotype, but god forbid newmans touch their FT stereotype.
Ho ho. "Agenda" is such a negative-sounding word. Anyone would think you're trying to make me out to be bad.

Beasts are good fighters. They are specialised in what makes them good at it (HP, ATP and DFP especialy), and this grants them relevant benefits in Fortefighter, Fighgunner, Wartecher and Protranser, while still upping their damage should a player choose to be unconventional and go with Fortegunner/Guntechers.

Newmans aren't as good at the mage thing as people believe. You yourself have thrown "It's a tech class so Newmans are automatically best at it even though they don't have any advantages with it" numerous times in this topic to support the laughable notion that they make good Wartechers (more fighter than mage) or Guntechers/Acrotechers (more support and shooty/fighting than mage).

And as for the other 5 types? Yeah, they don't use TP, gain so little MST it's a joke, and are better off without EVP. And since those are the three stats Newmans "boast", they're automatically a freaking joke at all of them. Woo!

[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2007-04-12 23:34 ]

-Shimarisu-

Apr 13, 2007, 06:17 AM

On 2007-04-12 20:04, PJ wrote:

Guntecher; here's why Newmans will be good (Read; will). Resta. Need ATP as a Guntecher? Hell fucking no? You use guns for SEs. So, newmans are great Guntechers, since they do their job as SEs, and have a non-shitty Resta, unlike CASTs.

There ya go.

Why don't they need ATP? Every little helps. Newmen are down on every stat from a human GT barring ATA, MST and TP. Human TP and MST is similar enough to newman for this tech-SECONDARY class. The ATA of human is more than sufficient, only beast really fails at this class (and should go fortegunner, if you insist on ranger.)

Of the three races most viable as GT, newman is worst. You should go human over cast if you want better resta and better equippable wands early on, ESPECIALLY considering the greater support role GT is getting in the expansion. Casts have a much harder job restaing sufficiently, but get SUV. It all depends what you want, and no, Mikaga, I don't need the extra HP. At job level 10 on my human I'm close to 1700 HP. Ranger classes need this much when exactly?

Newmen make "OK" GTs. I'm sure people look at the stats and think... perfect TP, second best ATA, best for tech equipped ranger right? Wrong though. Casts and humans are just better at it, period.

I think sega really screwed up giving newmen a bonus in GT and WT, it makes people think they are actually ideal classes for the race. They aren't. FT is. AT gives newmen a new viable role however, but IMO human is just as good at it.

And the class is supposed to use nuking techs as well as support. Casts and beasts fail at AT, ok? The melee is clearly secondary, despite faster attack because dagger is ALL THEY GET. There are plenty of situations in the game where dagger PAs, even super fast dagger PAs, are superceeded by other weaopns.

Hell, if this were not the case I'd use nothing but daggers on my WT. But WT has other weapons, and shitty TP, unlike AT which has practically no equippable melee, and excellent TP.

Beasts and casts will suck at AT. Beasts moreso, because it's partially a ranged class. Beasts and casts however, do fine at WT. Even with the awful ATA on beasts, yes they do fine because melee attacks require less ATA as you hit head on far less, and bows and cadrs negate sucky base ATA.

NEWMANS

SUCK

AT

WT. (and give the class a REALLY bad image.)

But they are "OK" as GT. Similar enough to human in stats to be OK, but never as good.

[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-13 04:21 ]

pikachief

Apr 13, 2007, 06:22 AM

i say cast have had the unfair treatment because no one understands how good they really are http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

-Shimarisu-

Apr 13, 2007, 06:42 AM

On 2007-04-13 04:22, pikachief wrote:
i say cast have had the unfair treatment because no one understands how good they really are http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

I've been thinking human is better of late. Why? Well I realised I can cram multiple roles onto my human and he'll do great at all of them. No tweaking either, he'll do well off the bat and not need special treatment to excel at others. I love hybrid classes and humans rock hard at them. Much better than newman. Arguably cast is better at some, but still needs effort (wand grinding) for others. I had a cast on JP, you'll see him in my Illuminous shots. He was fighgunner. I decided I don't really need SUV.

Jack of all trades, master of none? Sure, if you want to believe that, but I'd hardly call humans being 95% ideal at any given hybrid role and 80% at forte classes far enough below "master" to be worth crying over.

Yes, casts are overpowered. They are too good at too many roles. But contrary to what some here would like to believe, they will not make as good ATs, and it is nice to have that option open. Casts are ugly anyway, let's face it.

THOUGH I AM MAKING MY NEWMAN AT BECAUSE I ACTUALLY FEEL HE IS MY WEAKEST CHARACTER IN TERMS OF OPTIONS OPEN TO HIM. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gifOO I find him boring as hell.

[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-13 04:45 ]

TorterraEndor

Apr 13, 2007, 10:30 AM

Holy christ, does Shim just practice not knowing what shes talking about? Christ, WT have the third best TP in the game, will have the second best tied with AT attack techs in the game. How the hell are they not good at nuking? ESPECIALLY with newmans who can use this to compensate for lack of melee abilities. They don't make the best WT(Humans do), but they far from make terrible ones. Maybe if every WT was a CAST they'd get the shitty nuking rap, which apparently is the case.

If you want to make a melee FO character, go WT, but for god sake don't do it with a beast, and PLEASE not with a cast. They both suck out loud at it, make them fortefighter/fighgunner and play in partys for support instead.

Ho ho. "Agenda" is such a negative-sounding word. Anyone would think you're trying to make me out to be bad.
You do that enough with your terrible use of sarcasm.

Beasts are good fighters. They are specialised in what makes them good at it (HP, ATP and DFP especialy), and this grants them relevant benefits in Fortefighter, Fighgunner, Wartecher and Protranser, while still upping their damage should a player choose to be unconventional and go with Fortegunner/Guntechers.
WTs are the WORST FO at suppport come AoI, fool. Completely destroying the only reason you'd go WT as a beast or cast, lest you're an idiot.

Newmans aren't as good at the mage thing as people believe. You yourself have thrown "It's a tech class so Newmans are automatically best at it even though they don't have any advantages with it" numerous times in this topic to support the laughable notion that they make good Wartechers (more fighter than mage) or Guntechers/Acrotechers (more support and shooty/fighting than mage).
They're still better at it than everyone else. And beasts and casts aren't much higher above humans than you seem to think. Especially not casts.

And as for the other 5 types? Yeah, they don't use TP, gain so little MST it's a joke, and are better off without EVP. And since those are the three stats Newmans "boast", they're automatically a freaking joke at all of them. Woo!
That's why you don't make a newman a fortefighter, fighgunner, fortegunner, acrofighter or protranser. The same way you don't make a beast or a cast a FT, AT or WT http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[ This Message was edited by: TorterraEndor on 2007-04-13 08:31 ]

[ This Message was edited by: TorterraEndor on 2007-04-13 08:37 ]

Mikaga

Apr 13, 2007, 12:45 PM

Holy christ, does Shim just practice not knowing what shes talking about?
Probably, but in this case (read: and I typically never agree with Shim on principle) "she" has a bunch of valid points. I would hope you'd argue with said valid points by detailing and justifying your views instead of "zomg u r moron" but I've yet to see you do that, so why start now? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Christ, WT have the third best TP in the game
You mean because of Acrotecher? If so then you're wrong! The basic type "Force" has far more TP than Wartecher too, so they're actually fourth-best! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

(Note: And "second best" doesn't paint an accurate picture. It's still barely half as good as Fortetecher...)

Beasts are IMO true to their "Hunter" stereotype without being imbalanced.
WTs are the WORST FO at suppport come AoI, fool.
Um... okay? I'm not even sure how this challenges my point. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Newmans]'re still better at [all "techer" types] than everyone else.
So you keep saying...

And beasts and casts aren't much higher above humans than you seem to think. Especially not casts.
Let's focus on the Casts, shall we?

• More HP.
• More ATP.
• More ATA.
• More DFP.
• TP is useless for 6 expert types (which will be cut when AoI boosts support technics EXCEPT NOT BECAUSE THEY DON'T USE TP ENOUGH LOLOL).
• The MST difference is less useful than the HP difference. There is no arguing this.
• EVP is generally bad, and Casts have less of it.
• Casts get access to SUV weaponry, which is in no way a curse as they can opt not to use it and not suffer the "burden" of line shield limitations.

So... yeah, while all of these differences are all fairly small in nature, the fact of the matter is that Humans' only advantages are typically worthless TP and completely worthless MST. Thus it's quite fair to say that outside of Fortetecher, Casts make Humans obsolete.

That's why you don't make a newman a fortefighter, fighgunner, fortegunner, acrofighter or protranser.
You can't argue this and simaltaneously argue that Casts are not overpowered. The idea behind stereotype races is that they are best at their "class", but worse than Humans in the others. It applies to Beasts (Humans are better Rangers and Forces), and it applies to Newmans (Humans are better Hunters and Rangers). So why does it fail for Casts?

In any case, that's quite the extensive list for Newman "NEVER PLAY THIS" types. Given Wartecher is of equal rubbishness at the moment that list is arguably 5 in "PSUv1" and it's been established by many that Cast/Human trounce Newman at Guntecher. So... one playable type and one playable-but-bad type. SO AWESOME! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2007-04-13 10:48 ]

TorterraEndor

Apr 13, 2007, 01:00 PM

This isn't worth my time. I know I'm right, and you just post absolute shit that further proves you are an idiot. And many have agreed, but I'd say it in the meanest possible way.

What I find incredibly ironic though, is the amount of newman bitching you do must mean you use a newman, and are quite upset about his/her lack of melee capabilities, so if they're so gimped and casts rocked, why not delete it? Surely if the small difference between casts and humans in those relevant stats matter, than it must be ever so important that you stop using a bad race! http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/01/10

But anyways, ST isn't gonna change any of the races anyways, so I end up on top either way. The races are balanced, and I don't say so, the games creators do. Either stop bitching or stop playing, its gotten old.

AweOfShe

Apr 13, 2007, 01:42 PM

As you assholes are too busy crying about what combinations suck and other bullshit conjectures like that, there are a lot of people actually PLAYING unlikely combinations, AND contributing more for the team than your favoured types. gg.

Weeaboolits

Apr 13, 2007, 01:46 PM

Bah! Numbers!
When AoI comes out Ria'll be an ATnewearl 'cause she needs fast fast daggers, and Yulie'll be a RAbeastl of some type 'cause I wanna' http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Mikaga

Apr 13, 2007, 02:08 PM

On 2007-04-13 11:00, TorterraEndor wrote:
This isn't worth my time. I know I'm right
The ultimate argument.

you just post absolute shit that further proves you are an idiot.
If anything's "proof", it's the numbers I've posted. Which is funny because they also discredit the meaningless claim that I post "absolute shit".

it must be ever so important that you stop using a bad race!
I've switched to playing a Cast main. Doesn't mean I can't hate the imbalances.

The races are balanced, and I don't say so, the games creators do.
Blizzard said Necromancers were balanced.

Perhaps closer to home, Sega said RAmarls were balanced.

Or v1/v2 HUnewearls.

Or Amy in SA2:B.

Or Shadow in Sonic Battle.

Or...

Edit: Hahahaha, but do you want to know who doesn't think there's a balance? Just scroll up and look at the poll! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2007-04-13 12:09 ]

Mewn

Apr 13, 2007, 02:12 PM

Civility and good manners itt.

TorterraEndor

Apr 13, 2007, 03:03 PM

Huge population of PSU can't even play as efficient as possible even with the best race/class. Polls mean nothing.

Oh, and V1/2 HUmars owned HUne, fyi. Necros got nerfed, lol. If you're gonna use analogies like that, make them work. Offline games lose.

Still hilarious how you only quote part of my sentences/paragraphs to make me seem dumber. Too bad selective attention doesn't work when you have time to read what people say, ah, well..

Edit: And I'm curious what numbers you've posted, most posts of yours replying to anything I've said have been you saying I'm wrong, without numbers, or even any personal experience to back it up. Sure, I don't use numbers, but at least I've been posting realistic situations and reasoning. Not...bad analogies and sarcasm.

Plus, EVP can be good if you know what you're doing, and you give no real reasoning behind it being bad besides it's "generally bad". In a good party, there'll be maybe 2 or 3 times in a mission where you block and stop a PA, and more often you'd block big damage that'd knock you down anyways.

But I like Sounomi's post best, pretty much sums up your mindset

Seriously, anyone who says that casts are the best WTs isn't worth listening, let alone someone that insists that excel at 90% of the classes over other classes. There is more to this game than HP, ATA, and DFP. ATA racial stats on a gunner class are rather pointless to, since eventually you'll get enough ATA, even on a beast and once you get there, any further amount is next to pointless. Go make a lv 80 gunner and maybe you'll actually see this.
Casts don't excel at every non FT class. And all SUVs that are decent have a trap counterpart that can be used, don't even bother bringing that up.

[ This Message was edited by: TorterraEndor on 2007-04-13 13:17 ]

chibiLegolas

Apr 13, 2007, 03:08 PM

In general, I think the cast hate is all misdirected.
The obvious flaws in a cast IS their low TP and MST stats. Please don't down play these flaws.

TP: Yes, TP only is useful in 3 expert classes. But that's one form of ST's way of balancing the races. ALL races (except for humans) have expert classes which are hard to work within and this is the casts. Working into the 3 expert techer classes is possible and workable, but that's forcing cast techers into a disadvantage and changing their playstyle to make the race/class work. JUST like the other race/class combos.

MST: I don't know about the other races, but when playing with my cast, when I get hit with a tech, it HURTS. Higher HP off sets it, but I don't think it off sets it to neglegible amounts. And I'm pretty dam sure I'm taking more damage from a tech than other races. It's difficult to guage exact #'s without charts though. If cast's higher HP does offset the MST disadvantage by a large amount, then MST damage formula needs to be reworked in the game. But to put the BLAME on casts for this oversight is totally misdirected. MST is suppost to be important since enough enemies fling plenty of techs. Perhaps to satisfy everyone, the game could use even more tech flinging mobs?
On another note, please also keep in mind, casts who are NOT fighter types. While fighters are given tons of HP, us cast gunners and techers can surely see and feel those dam techs coming our way. And that megre HP bonus we get may help, we STILL are gonna get rocked and we can see our flaws more so in these class types.

Evade: Casts have poor amounts of it. And it's subjective if having high or low amounts of this stat to be good or bad, not FACT. It depends on the class you're in and play style. But it's meant in game to have high evade to be a GOOD thing. So in that thought, cast's low evade was suppost to be a weakness. Afterall, blocking damage IS suppost to be good. If it's not, then that's the game design's flaw and should not be blamed for cast SUPREMACY.

SUV: is an added bonus. But many over play this advantage way too much IMO. Yes, it is OPTIONAL. And assuming most casts out there aren't super rich/lucky, they often enough have to choose between high % armor without extra slot, or one with extra slot but low %. So this does mean that there's PLENTY of casts out there who walk around without an suv. And we're not "gimping" ourselves. That's the nature of this "bonus". It's a give and take. Not to mention that having an suv suddenly makes CASTS gods of damage or something. Again, get the idea of cast fighters out of your heads. They help out the group with "added" damage. But not nearly enough to totally kill off any mobs without anyone getting a hit in. And it's damage is based off of base atp I believe. So it may be ideal for cast fighters, not every cast IS a fighter! It does ok damage on a ranger, and megre damage on a techer.

As for casts taking over the human's role:
May I remind you about this Favored Types (stat bonuses) chart?
http://psupedia.info/index.php?title=Types

Casts are meant to be "excellent" in one and ONE expert class. And IMO, make good fighter type classes also. So idealy, only workable around these 2 type classes. But to say that they're SUPERIOR in fighter and stealing away the thunder from Beast and Human fighters are either just personal opinions or a design flaw (to other ppl who voiced this). Either way, it's not cause of "cast supremacy" or any other ridiculous notion.

Humans get so many added bonuses to these hybrid expert classes, they should make up and go beyond the casts "superior" stats compared to casts who are anything other than fG.

In the end, if for some reason, the stats on non fG casts are superior to other race/classes with their assigned bonuses, I doubt the difference is any great amount. They would need to be fixed in the next patch. But I think there's some magical veil that muddles our vision and only gives an appearance that casts are the "superior race", since the favored type bonuses (and other reasons) are harder to notice.

On 2007-04-13 10:45, Mikaga wrote:
Let's focus on the Casts, shall we?

• More HP.
• More ATP.
• More ATA.
• More DFP.
• TP is useless for 6 expert types (which will be cut when AoI boosts support technics EXCEPT NOT BECAUSE THEY DON'T USE TP ENOUGH LOLOL).
• The MST difference is less useful than the HP difference. There is no arguing this.
• EVP is generally bad, and Casts have less of it.
• Casts get access to SUV weaponry, which is in no way a curse as they can opt not to use it and not suffer the "burden" of line shield limitations.

So... yeah, while all of these differences are all fairly small in nature, the fact of the matter is that Humans' only advantages are typically worthless TP and completely worthless MST. Thus it's quite fair to say that outside of Fortetecher, Casts make Humans obsolete.

Mikaga

Apr 13, 2007, 03:56 PM

On 2007-04-13 13:03, TorterraEndor wrote:
I'm curious what numbers you've posted, most posts of yours replying to anything I've said have been you saying I'm wrong, without numbers, or even any personal experience to back it up. Sure, I don't use numbers, but at least I've been posting realistic situations and reasoning. Not...bad analogies and sarcasm.
You claim my statements are baseless when all you've ever said it "Newmans are the best techers" ? Hahaha.

I somehow knew you'd conveniently "miss" the quoted testing bit - which is of course experience - to show how little MST does (all numbers there) or point out that GT-wise, Human's MST means little compared to Cast's HP.

"Realistic situations"? Go on. All you've posted is "if it's a techer, Newman can do it best" which has little to do with situations.

Here's one for you though? A Cast Fortetecher takes about 78~79 points more damage than a Newman Fortetecher and has almost exactly 200 more HP at level 80 (~1150 vs. ~1350 and ~1190 vs. ~1395 depending on gender). This means that unless the technic does LESS than ~400 damage to the Newman, the Cast will survive just as well against technics even
at their supposed worst class! 'course, the point around 400 damage favours the extra hit the Newmans can take, but if the damage lowers beyond that point the enemy technics stop becoming a threat anyway.

Plus, EVP can be good if you know what you're doing, and you give no real reasoning behind it being bad besides it's "generally bad".
It's only good when the hit you block would have killed you or caused blow down or blow away.

For all regular hits, blocking stuns you which cancels any Skills being used at the cost of their PP, and freezes you in place for about 0.7 seconds leaving you helpless to defend against follow-up attacks, as well as STOPPING YOU FROM FIGHTING (and I already said this about five times so your "you give no real reasoning" is another flat-out lie).

In a good party, there'll be maybe 2 or 3 times in a mission where you block and stop a PA
Hell no. Not unless you only use one weapon throughout the entire mission or fight enemies that don't fight back.

Casts don't excel at every non FT class.
Funny how you keep claiming my statements are baseless.

So.. you're convinced they're awful Wartechers. And even if that were true (and there is no way you could claim Casts are awful FF/FI/FG/GT/PT) then it's 5/7 great classes compared to the 1/7 (2/7 if you REALLY believe Guntecher/Wartecher) of a similar specialist race.

And all SUVs that are decent have a trap counterpart that can be used, don't even bother bringing that up.
Could someone show me the trap that does Grom Buster? I'd really love to throw that around.

TorterraEndor

Apr 13, 2007, 04:22 PM

You obviously aren't playing with good party's if EVP is a serious problem for you. But since you've proven this bugs you way more than it bugs me, I'll go enjoy PSU and let you "win" this argument. Hope you feel better about yourself.

And grom buster does shock, so..um...Yeah, you can figure this one out if you like

-Ryuki-

Apr 13, 2007, 04:25 PM

What the hell happened here? Okay, look. The purpose of a Human is
supposedly "freedom" to play any class, and not be incompetent at it.
They can do what other races cannot. They have good ATP compared to
say a Newman. They have better TP/MST compared to a CAST and a Beast.
TP/MST isn't worthless if you're a WT, which a Human plays damn well at.
If anything, I see more CASTs as either FiGunners or ForteGunners. But,
I never seem them do otherwise. Beasts are normally ForteFighters, FiGunners,
sometimes even ProTransers. You hardly ever see them as a Techer. Newmans
are normally ForteTechers and GunTechers. As far as FF, PT (Rain and Ko are good
PT's), you don't see many of them around. And Humans.. You seem them played
as anything and pretty much everything. Why? Because to make up what they lack
(high ATP/ATA/TP), they are given the ability to play any class, and not suck at it.

Mikaga

Apr 13, 2007, 04:27 PM

On 2007-04-13 13:08, chibiLegolas wrote:
The obvious flaws in a cast IS their low TP and MST stats. Please don't down play these flaws.
Because two flaws (only two? Come on, big red flag there? Newmans have like six flaws) are pretty worthless. Despite what you may thing, TP is only really used for 1 of 7 expert classes and for 4 it is 100% worthless. MST is honestly less useful than additional HP unless the enemy technics are excessively weak at which point nobody really cares.

TP: Yes, TP only is useful in 3 expert classes. But that's one form of ST's way of balancing the races.
Funny how 6 classes use ATP/HP/DFP, or how all 7 use HP. Someone want to tell me who's worst at all four of those stats?

ALL races (except for humans) have expert classes which are hard to work within and this is the casts. Working into the 3 expert techer classes is possible and workable, but that's forcing cast techers into a disadvantage and changing their playstyle to make the race/class work. JUST like the other race/class combos.
Um, no. Cast Guntecher does everything better than Human/Newman Guntecher except Resta for a small amount less. That is the sole drawback compared to more power/accuracy/survivability. If you honestly value a minor healing increase over, well, everything else, to the point where Cast are "disadvantaged", then I'd question your priorities to begin with.

MST: [...] If cast's higher HP does offset the MST disadvantage by a large amount, then MST damage formula needs to be reworked in the game. But to put the BLAME on casts for this oversight is totally misdirected.
I don't know about a rework, it's possible the game was designed so races' MST differences didn't matter all that much, but it does seem quite contradictory that a Newman non-techer dies faster than a Cast of the same type against technics.

Either way, who said anything about blaming Casts? That's quite crazy. But it doesn't change that the Cast is still better off despite their "lacking" MST.

But it's meant in game to have high evade to be a GOOD thing. So in that thought, cast's low evade was suppost to be a weakness. Afterall, blocking damage IS suppost to be good. If it's not, then that's the game design's flaw and should not be blamed for cast SUPREMACY.
Agreed on design flaw, but once again, there is no "blaming the casts" as a non-sentient fictional species. Which still doesn't change that Casts are typically better off due to apparent design flaw.

SUV: is an added bonus. But many over play this advantage way too much IMO.
Something > Nothing.

And it's damage is based off of base atp I believe. So it may be ideal for cast fighters, not every cast IS a fighter! It does ok damage on a ranger, and megre damage on a techer.
Those types can still make ample use of status-causing SUVs.

As for casts taking over the human's role:
May I remind you about this Favored Types (stat bonuses) chart?
http://psupedia.info/index.php?title=Types</BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Those bonuses are literally insignificant.

A Cast Fighgunner has more HP, ATP, ATA and DFP than a Human Fighgunner even with the Human getting a bonus.

I must admit it's been a while since I saw the mistaken "bonus = role" argument.

[quote]Casts are meant to be "excellent" in one and ONE expert class. And IMO, make good fighter type classes also. So idealy, only workable around these 2 type classes. But to say that they're SUPERIOR in fighter and stealing away the thunder from Beast and Human fighters are either just personal opinions or a design flaw (to other ppl who voiced this). Either way, it's not cause of "cast supremacy" or any other ridiculous notion.
Yes it is. Fortefighters are mostly fighters, barely gunners. Fortegunners are mostly gunners, barely fighters. Fighgunners are a fighter/gunner mix. Protransers are a fighter/gunner mix.

That's not 2 type classes. It's 4. And - as Shimisaru has testified - Wartechers of all races do stronger damage with a good pair of twin daggers equipped and just ignoring attack techs. And once you ignore attack techs, which race is right up there in terms of usefulness (especially to counter WT's low ATA modifier)?

Then there's Guntecher which should NEVER use attack technics. And with those out of the picture, what's a great race to be again? You guessed it! And that makes six types the supposed "Ranger specialist" can be great at.

Humans get so many added bonuses to these hybrid expert classes, they should make up and go beyond the casts "superior" stats compared to casts who are anything other than fG.
They do not. They absolutely do not. What use is a 3% ATP bonus to x, y and z when Casts universally have 9% more ATP than Humans? The Cast still wins!

In the end, if for some reason, the stats on non fG casts are superior to other race/classes with their assigned bonuses, I doubt the difference is any great amount. They would need to be fixed in the next patch.
They are, and they needed to be fixed before the game was released. Hopes are low that it will ever happen.

But I think there's some magical veil that muddles our vision and only gives an appearance that casts are the "superior race", since the favored type bonuses (and other reasons) are harder to notice.
Not so much "harder to notice", but (for the 4th time this post?) worse than Casts' racial stat superiority.

So it's honestly not a "magical veil". Cast non-FT vs. Human non-FT. Universally the Cast gets more ATP, ATA, DFP, and HP and their SUV. The Human gets more MST (worse than Cast's HP), TP (typically useless) and EVP (typically bad).

This is the problem. If it was not a problem, people would not be arguing it so much. And Casts in this vote would have got more than a tenth of the votes that Humans have.

Edit: Somehow a bunch of rubbish got appended to the bottom of this post. Blegh.

[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2007-04-13 14:29 ]

-Shimarisu-

Apr 13, 2007, 05:42 PM

On 2007-04-13 08:30, TorterraEndor wrote:
Holy christ, does Shim just practice not knowing what shes talking about?

I have every expert class in the game, where's yours?

Christ, WT have the third best TP in the game,

At the moment, they have second best. And it's junk. It's clearly secondary to ATP.

will have the second best tied with AT attack techs in the game.

With half the base TP. I know I say a lot that base stats do not matter, but let's face it with FT and AT vs. everything else, in the case of teching classes THEY DO.

How the hell are they not good at nuking?

They are junk at nuking. It's a secondary ability. hy would a Hunewearl in PSO use nuke predonimately? They would not.

ESPECIALLY with newmans who can use this to compensate for lack of melee abilities.

Except, they can't. Given the lower attack techs COUPLED with half the TP, with a good grinded wand on both a newman WT can manage roughly 3/5ths the damage output of FT. And maybe less than half the damage of fortefighter. With a good grinded wand on a cast or beast, they can manage 4/5ths that newman WT's damage. But they will also manage 4/5ths the damage output of other fighting classes, something newman can't do.

I'll take my 80% ATP, 50% tech potential of a beast WT over your 50% ATP, 60% tech of your newman any day. This is equipping the classes with good weaopns, and taking THIS into account, not just base stats. YOu want me to number crunch for you, the ACTUAL damage figures? I can do it again like I've done it before for people who insist that a class with low TP and the lowest hunter class ATP is a GREAT class to put on a high TP, pitiful ATP race and effectively turn them into a cripple.

They don't make the best WT(Humans do),

Human ATP imo is too crippled to warrant playing this LOW ATP HUNTER CLASS, but you're right in that they piddle all over those pansy space elves.

but they far from make terrible ones.

Stats wise, they make terrible ones.

Maybe if every WT was a CAST they'd get the shitty nuking rap, which apparently is the case.

The shitty nuking rap actually comes squarely from newman players, who went WT for a bit on their main and were disgusted with th damage output.

If you want to make a melee FO character, go WT, but for god sake don't do it with a beast, and PLEASE not with a cast.

You really do need my number crunching, don't you?

They both suck out loud at it,

Where's your beast WT, and figfures to prove this?

make them fortefighter/fighgunner and play in partys for support instead.

Why would I do this, when my beast WT can solo far better than your newman WT? Also I DO play as fortefighter too.

Beasts are good fighters. They are specialised in what makes them good at it (HP, ATP and DFP especialy), and this grants them relevant benefits in Fortefighter, Fighgunner, Wartecher and Protranser,

And makes them also ideal for negating much odf the shitty base ATP modifier of WT.

WTs are the WORST FO at suppport come AoI, fool. Completely destroying the only reason you'd go WT as a beast or cast, lest you're an idiot.

How much AoI have you played, darling? Worst FO at support sure, but the base modifier on TP still cranks out a healthy resta. If resta is all people are going to want you for and you can heal for 2/3rds their HP - all anyone really needs, why g newman for that extra oomph?

AoI WILL mean better nuking for WT, but with the best wand a cast or beast will still crank out 4/5ths the damage of newman WITH THE SAME WAND. WT has bad TP. The greatest % of your damage COMES FROM THE FREAKING WAND. Whereas on say, twin daggers (WT's main weap) the greatest % of the damage comes from your BASE ATP. Which area do we boost? ATP or TP? TP clearly doesn't need boosting if the majority of the damage comes from ther WEAPON EQUIPPED. ATP does, it's only 100% vs Fortefighter's 130%, it needs hiking up if the main weapons used have low ATP. So, we make our WT beast (IMO the best, highest ATP, third highest TP) or cast (second highest ATP, lowest TP) and bear in mind that on melee, base ATA rarely matters squat. And with bows, it equally matters squat.

I've had it with trying to convince you with arguments, next you get my proof.

[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-13 15:48 ]

TorterraEndor

Apr 13, 2007, 06:05 PM

I stopped reading after you said "why would HUne nuke in PSO?"

Nukes sucked in PSO, so crappy analogy = not reading.

But I do like the assumptions that because I'm a nobody at PSOW I must be low level everything, and you're right, I can't even get an expert class, I just act tough, you saw right through me http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Xaeris

Apr 13, 2007, 06:25 PM

I was more than happy to keep my nose out of this until...

Human ATP imo is too crippled to warrant playing this LOW ATP HUNTER CLASS,

Fantastic. Okay, what you seem to want to say is that a wartecher, despite what class requirements put forth to attain it, is a melee/caster hybrid with emphasis on melee. And I agree.

First, let's put some numbers on the table; male human and male beast. The difference in their ATP at 80/10 WT is 83, obviously in the beast's favor. Just so there's no question, let's milk this difference in ATP for all it's worth and account for a 50% weapon and a skill's ATP multiplier. For giggles, we'll use Assault Crush and it's 185%.

The final difference in attack power between a beast and human WT user using Assault Crush comes out to be 230ish. What does that mean? The hits of the first movement will do 45 more damage apiece while the hits of the second will do...maybe 70.

In reality, while the beast is doing more damage, that extra bit of damage will fail to have its impact. An enemy would have to have a fairly large amount of HP for these bits to add up to an appreciable difference, i.e, both the human and beast will use the same amount of swings to kill, say, a vahra. In the cases they don't, the human will need one extra.

However small the difference may be though, the fact is that the beast has more ATP. The question is, is it worth it? For that 83 extra ATP, they exchange 38 ATA and 226 TP. I don't particularly care about ATA. We'll just say it's a teeny bit less and leave it at that if you don't mind. I want to skip straight to TP.

First off, while the majority of a beast's TP may come from their wand, the majority of a human or newman's TP will come from them if that indicates anything to you about your argument for this point. With W'gacrosi +10, a human has 1271 TP and the beast has 1045.

On paper, you're right. That 18% the beast is missing isn't a big deal. Of course, that's not the actual attacking TP for any tech. No. For example, Diga's TP multiplier at Lv 20 is...um...270%? Yeah, that sounds right. So, the difference in beast and human Diga is not 226, but 610. If the target enemy is weak to earth (which is should be, I can't fathom why you'd bother casting if it weren't), that difference is further multiplied.

So yeah, while you are indeed attacking with 80% the force of a human wartecher, that remaining 20% is nothing to sneeze at. What you lose for that bit of ATP is far greater than what you gain.

-Shimarisu-

Apr 13, 2007, 06:37 PM

The point is I wouldn't be attacking with Diga on anything BUT melee resistant enemies. 9 times out of 10, daggers do more damage than ANYTHING ELSE THIS CLASS CAN WIELD. I'd be using Diga very sparingly, as I do, and using WT in its true intended role. As the best hunter class for soloing or low capacity parties.

ATP is more important. Now add in nanoblasting.

I'll give you hunters are good at this job, but I'd personally take the nanoblasting and extra ATP over it. My human character is actually GT, something humans do better than they do WT. Beast ATA is too poor for GT really, so that makes human and casts shine at THAT role.

It doesn't change the fact that newmans make the worst WT. I'll give you human. But newman is cranking down that ATP too far down.

WT only really needs the techs for self support, soloing, backup resta and whacking the odd Mizura with Diga.

Boosting their TP by going newman simply is not necessary when you cripple their ATP s badly.

IF YOU MUST HAVE MELEE ON YOUR NEWMAN, WAIT FOR AT. CURRENT AOI STATS SUGGEST THEY EXCEL AT IT.

Apr 13, 2007, 06:50 PM

On 2007-04-13 12:08, Mikaga wrote:
Perhaps closer to home, Sega said RAmarls were balanced.

I know you're just saying they're over powered but...

L. O. Fucking. L.

If any Ranger class was broken, it was RAcast.

SolomonGrundy

Apr 13, 2007, 07:21 PM

There are beast GT players here that say beast GTs hit juuuust fine. And while i happen to agree that humans make excellent GTs, I'll heartily disagree that WT make poor casters.

You are, however, correct at math. with level 30 techs, and +20% retier, newman WTs have only 60% of the damage potential that newman fTs have. Where you miss is the practical application of that power, and when they are going to get it.

1st: WT is a hybrid class, meaning I will be WT2, before you are fT1.

2nd: Wartechers have 2x the DFP, and 1.5x the HP that ForeTechers have, which means when fTs are being 1 hit KO'd by re ragnus, WTs are casting resta. Also, in the case where the fT does live, they are heaping on the resta, while the WT continues casting.

3rd: This I know from being a hunter: there are a LOT of melee and bullet resistant creatures, that are difficult to kill (high HP, etc). There are NOT a lot of difficult to kill tech resistant creatures....Gohmons is the hardest I can think of, and look at that, thier main attack is barta, something both classes should be able to weather perfectly fine.

4th. Becasue of thier higher ATP, and ATA, WTs can equip ranged weaponry sooner than fTs. Now, I am not so naive to think that WTs are better bow/card users than FTs (20 levels of bullets is a big gap), but if you can't equip a card, you can't use it.

5th: Hard Power charge should solve any melee damage problems WTs have, since they can live without an ATA unit. Carry a few extra weapons, or 10 Photon chrages.

I think you can see that I'm NOT trying to say that Beast make poor WTs, I'm only traing to say that Newmans can be a tech-based WT, be very functional.

-Shimarisu-

Apr 13, 2007, 07:23 PM

OK here's my proof, kiddies.

Let's go beast male vs male newman to be fair, even though I know newman WTs are mostly female.

Beast male WT stats, 80/10.

HP: 2477
ATP: 673 vs 80/10 beast fortefighter's 901
ATA: 179
TP: 472 vs 80/10 male newman FT's 1254
DEF: 163
EVP: 374
MST: 119
STA: 10

576

Newman male WT stats, 80/10.

HP: 2003
ATP: 528 vs 80/10 beast fortefighter's 901
ATA: 234
TP: 821 vs 80/10 male newman FT's 1254
DEF: 140
EVP: 453
MST: 269
STA: 10

Now. The trouble with most people who only look at base stats is they look at these stats and see more bigger numbers in the newman field, and think that automatically makes newman a better WT. Ah, if only that were the case.

Let's view why it's not the case, shall we?

The numbers that mean the most in this role are the ATP and TP. Defensive stats are sky high no matter the race playing it. WT truly is a tank.

WT's greatest damage output also comes from its daggers, hands down: Let's crunch some numbers. Assuming for arguments sake that we are using a fairly easy to attain weapon, a katsuno zashi which are the best daggers WT can equip. Let's assume they also have a fairly non challenging to aquire % of 28 elemental.

On a beast male WT, total ATP with weapon is now 875.

Total ATP modified against opposing monster element is 1163. (you actually get a 5% bonus gain when using any elemental weapons, so the correct ATP modifier is actually x1.33)

On a newman WT, we're looking at total ATP with weapon of 730.

Total ATP modified against opposing monster element is 970. Damage output DIFFERENCE is now starting to creep down with the % modifiers in place.

Let's look at the figures if we use Renkai Buyozan. Now, I THINK Renkai at lvl 20 is 120% damage modifier. I've forgotton due to the fact my bast WT on AoI is now sporting a 21+ Renkai. And my old figures for Renkai in the Perfect Bible are now outdated.

With Renkai, the total ATP of beast WT is now 1511. Newman ATP comes to 1261.

IF your daggers were 50% element (and many of mine WERE, back on PC when I could afford them), total beast ATP would be 1627, and newman would be 1314.

IF you used this same setup on a beast FORTEFIGHTER, with the 28% daggers you would have 1835 damage output with renkai lvl 30, and 2150 with 50%. Check that out.

Max potential with daggers on fortefighter is 2150, beast WT gets 1627 and newman gets 1314. That's WITHOUT shifta/agtarides. WITH shifta or and debuffs your damages SOLO as a WT come much closer to fortefighter IF you are beast. Also beast fortefighters can play the "I use agtarides when soling" cadr all they like, but realistically we KNOW that most of them aern't topping it up every time it runs out.

So perhaps I was a little unfair when I said newman was 50% the damage of fortefighter, when using the same weapons. More like 60%, but beast there is pushing over 75% proficiency.

WITH DIGA ON +10 W'gacros. I'll use this example because it is the tech most used by WTs. Well maybe foie is too, but let's look at these figures.

On beast male, total TP with weapon is 1048.
On newman male, total TP with weapon is 1397.

Total TP with diga level 20 for beast male WT=2640.
Total TP with diga level 20 for newman male WT=3520.

Huge difference huh? But bear in mind how slow diga is, how many targets it hits and just how much more damage daggers get over that figure. Add that the beast WT is STILL pumping out 3/4 the damage of newman.

VERSUS DIGA ON A FORTETECHER (this is key).

Total TP with diga level 30 for newman male FT=5124.

WT, with optimal TP (as newman) will only ever reach 2/3rds the tech potential of FT. If you solo, FT's ability to boost their techs with level 30 retier vs WT's lvl 20 is only more damning.
WT, with optimal ATP (as beast) will only ever reach 3/4s the ATP potential of FF. If you solo, the best FF can do is equal that, but they have to use agtarides. Not half as damning as WT vs. FT solo-wise.

So, newman WT has roughly 3/5ths the atp potential of pure, 2/3rds the TP potential.
Beast WT has 3/4 the atp, 1/2th the TP potential.

Either race will use ATP more than TP, it will account for MORE damage output. Melee is faster, it will hit more targets, it will MORE OFTEN damage for greater numbers than tech.

Newman doesn't get nanoblast, either.

In conclusion, beast makes a better WT than newman.

I don't expect you to read all this, but I hope that you can see I'm not just an idiot who looks purely at base stats. Which newman players clearly ARE. They think *I'M* the idiot, because base stats are all they look at.

You thinking that I am an idiot proves you are this special brand of idiot yourself.

I did this number crunching back in early october, when I made my first beast WT.

Xaeris

Apr 13, 2007, 07:25 PM

I'm here strictly to combat your statement about humans having crippled ATP for the class. You can say newmen suck at the job all you like, I couldn't care less.

The point is I wouldn't be attacking with Diga on anything BUT melee resistant enemies. 9 times out of 10, daggers do more damage than ANYTHING ELSE THIS CLASS CAN WIELD. I'd be using Diga very sparingly, as I do, and using WT in its true intended role. As the best hunter class for soloing or low capacity parties.

Here's the thing though. While the scenarios where teching is more efficient than melee might not come up very often (for you anyway; I live and breathe Desert Goliath), they exist. And the human wartecher is much better at them while at the same time being damn near equal to the beast at every other kind of scenario.

Now, you played the nanoblast card. I've been aching to try out the argument I've come up with to counter it. You'll be the first, a guinea pig so to speak.

Your nanoblast is garbage on wartecher. First, let's take into account that this is a class of versatility. In its ideal situation, the situation in which no other class could do a better job in, that versatility is working overtime. Being the sole techer on a Seed S run is the example that pops to mind first. Not only would you be healing your allies, you would be using your cards on the flying roaches and gaozorans and using your knock up PAs to keep the deljabans from firing megids.

If you nanoblast while in this situation, you are unable to heal/reverser anyone, the melee resistant enemies will be nerfing your damage anyway and the closest thing you have to a knockup is an attack that knocks back and ultimately sets the deljabans up perfectly to flank your party with megid.

That said, a nanoblast in itself isn't even that great if your base stats can't back it up, speaking from my experience as my beast 'transer. One by one...

Boggo does not take your armor's element coefficient into account, nor does it offer any MST boost. So on many occasions, I can actually outdefend Boggo Val in my base form. Yeah, real useful.

I'm not even sure why a WT would pick Zeed. Our proficiencies are in the most laughably accurate weapons in the game; daggers, fists, polearms, bows, fans, technics...that ATA modifier on the class is extremely deceptive. The other melees get higher modifiers not because they're supposed to be more accurate than use, but because they have weapons that need them (axe, double saber, mechs, etc).

As near as I can figure, Adaka multiplies base ATP by some mystery amount. The problem is the attacks that this ATP is used on, Dadanga-nabra and Gozuba-nabra. I'm sure I butchered those, but they should look familiar enough. All the ATP in the world is worthless if the attack method you have to use it with is garbage. The swipes are slow and wipe open to evade cancel.

And of course, all of those force someone to babysit you during the interim seeing as a nano'ed beast can't heal themselves.

As for Vande Val...well, that one's actually good, I have nothing bad to say about it aside from the original point of nerfing your versatility.

Point is, nanoblasting is for fortefighters and fighgunners. Not only do they have enough ATP to be multiplied, but they're already one trick ponies; they're not losing much when they choose to nano.

Basically what I'm saying is, any scenario where a nanoblast is genuinely useful for a wartecher is a scenario in which a fighgunner would be a better fit for the slot anyway. I dunno about you, but I'm not interested in trying to outdo a fighgunner at being a fighgunner.

One more thing. Give me one reason why twin daggers should be considered our main weapon right now. Mind the key words there before you try the obvious route.

-Shimarisu-

Apr 13, 2007, 07:31 PM

On 2007-04-13 17:25, Xaeris wrote:
Your nanoblast is garbage on wartecher.

No it isn't. It still packs more damage than many weapons and WT barely has to dodge during, given the high defensive stats. WT survives better under nano as Adaka Val than FF, and as such OFTEN gets more hits in.

I dont need babysitting during nano an I never expect people to do so. On WT I play in parties of 3 tops. That's what I consider the role to be for. Soloing and low capacity parties.

One more thing. Give me one reason why twin daggers should be considered our main weapon right now. Mind the key words there before you try the obvious route.

They are not. I was using them as a pure example. Damage modifiers for other weapons and PAs are going to produce similar results for beast vs newman. I'm not going to come up with all of them, because just the above figures took me an age. Plus, even after nerf a high % on renkai buyou zan really does>>>>>the damage output of MOST weapons WT can equip.

I'll give you that humans equal beasts (OK you changed my mind. I'll give you this. I just love nanoblasting.) But newmans are the inferior race here. Which is basically what I wanted to prove.

Newmen really do suck at WT. They will do fine at AT. Wait for AT if you must have your melee with pointy ears.

[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-13 17:32 ]

[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-13 17:36 ]

SolomonGrundy

Apr 13, 2007, 07:31 PM

I know you're just saying they're over powered but...

L. O. Fucking. L.

If any Ranger class was broken, it was RAcast.

You clearly don't know what the fuck you are talking about. A RAmarl with shifta and deband has more ATP/DFP than a RAcast with no shifta and deband. They exceed damage of RAcast when zalure is used.

A RAmarl has the 2nd highest ATA in the game (so, FAR less need for weapons with hit), and the highest EVP). RAcast was worst of the RAs in ATA.

RAmarls could eat 250 matls vs RAcast 150, which means that YOU get to decide the stats that need the most boosting. Stat max on RAmarls takes 2 units, you can boost everything but MST with 1. Maxing all RAcast stats is not possible. without 3 slots items.

RAmarls can wear aura field, 1 of the highest DFP armors in the game. RAmarls could use all the cheaty Female only melee weapons (madam's umbrella comes to mind), making them the equal of RAcasts at melee (better when you consider the umbrella's special).

I have a 179th level RAcast, and a 152th level RAmarl. Don't *even* try to tell me.

[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-04-13 17:32 ]

Xaeris

Apr 13, 2007, 07:36 PM

I'll give you that humans equal beasts

Honestly, I think we're better at it than the furballs, but I doubt I can pull off a victory of that magnitude, so we'll call it a draw with this. Carry on with saying the newmen suck.

DonRoyale

Apr 13, 2007, 07:39 PM

All right, everyone. This argument seems to have become quite heated. After carefully reading all the posts, I've officially taken a side.

But first let me direct you to my signature. Sure, I might not have the level you no-life tards do. But let me interject this so that you all understand:

On 2007-04-13 15:42, -Shimarisu- wrote:
The shitty nuking rap actually comes squarely from newman players, who went WT for a bit on their main and were disgusted with th damage output.

Pray tell, Shim, do you happen to be able to read minds?

I originally liked the idea of WT. It sounded fun-melee and tech, what's not to love?

Until I actually got into it and realized how much it sucked.

With my melee weapons, I BARELY pushed 100 with a 28% Jitseen, which was the crap I was barely able to equip at the time, with my shitty ATP for my level (36/3 at the time, barely made over 200 ATP). Note this was with PA's, on a C-rank mission against an ice enemy.

Now, for fun, I decided to try levelling up my Hunter. At HU3, not only did I have 60 more ATP (which is ironic, since newmans get a race bonus as a Wartecher, but not as a Hunter. I was WT3 too http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif), but I had better weapons.

So, I was doing the co-op Dragon mission (forget the name and don't care to remember) on B rank with some friends. Now, what REALLY bothered me was that I was doing, with my PA's, 50 at the most.

So basically, I'm going to give you what Shim said, but from the eyes of someone who's gone through it himself, so maybe you'll believe me-NEWMAN WARTECHERS SUCK.

Now look, to reiterrate my earlier post I made amidst the heat of the WT argument, I can't stand newman fT's either. Why? Well, the only thing I really could say I liked about being a newman Wartecher was the fact that, at 41/3, I've breached 900 HP. I can't stand being a Fortetecher and looking at my measly 550 HP. I mean, come on, my level 16 beast has just over 500.

Add that with the fact that every hit sends me scrambling for reinforcements, regardless of what mission/rank I'm doing, really makes me frown on newmans.

I don't care how many times I can Resta myself and be done with it. I'd rather not have to put Resta on every rod I have, minimizing my damage. I'd also not prefer having to heal EVERY TWO FUCKING SECONDS, thank you very much. At least my other characters don't have to heal every hit they take or risk death.

So, yeah, newmans suck. At anything and everything.

SolomonGrundy

Apr 13, 2007, 07:51 PM

you know, comparing melee damage to a beast (or cast) fortefighter is pretty much a sure way to be unhappy with WT. you should be comparing it qt best with Figunner, which has slightly less ATP.

Twin daggers are *terrible* weapons for newman wartechers. That's no joke. they are baasically designed for classes with high ATP. Single daggers do not suffer from this problem. Nor do spears/sabers. These are the WT staple.

You guys have also failed to mention that WTs have high EVP. That means blocking. blocking favors techs and guns. Advantage: newm

You also failed to mention MST (not surprisingly, a beast weakpoint). Newmans have 2.5x the MST beasts do, and this helps them weather the ineveitable tech onslaught, if/when tey get caught in it.

My newman WT does use diga. But only vs bees, large opponents with 1 hit location. Nosdiga, and Gidiga see a lot of action.

[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-04-13 17:52 ]

malice_nyc

Apr 13, 2007, 07:58 PM

Whats the point of this thread? Shouldn't you just play the class and race you enjoy? If you want to micromanage a bunch of stats, go play WoW. PSU is an action game and depends to a degree on player skill, which no amount of spreadsheet twiddling can account for.

I have a lady Newman who's capped Fighgunner, a class I am supposed to be a priori terrible at, yet, oddly, I never heard complaints from teammates, I don't think any of them were whipping out TI-86s to calculate my stat bonuses either. If anyone had room to complain, it was the Go Varhas as I massacred them with my earth Nightwalker and gravity dance.

Sheesh, its a game, please attempt to enjoy it (I think any race can manage that ^_^). I also find it odd that people seem to disdain any sort of challenge whatsoever... if you're looking for something easy, then yeah, stick with CAST fG, Newman fT, and Beast fF. Otherwise, play as you like, and as long as you're a good player and a decent person, you'll be an asset to your team.

[ This Message was edited by: malice_nyc on 2007-04-13 17:59 ]

[ This Message was edited by: malice_nyc on 2007-04-13 18:03 ]

DonRoyale

Apr 13, 2007, 08:03 PM

On 2007-04-13 17:51, SolomonGrundy wrote:
you know, comparing melee damage to a beast (or cast) fortefighter is pretty much a sure way to be unhappy with WT. you should be comparing it with Figunner, which has slightly less ATP.

Well, let's do this then:

Though they be different classes, I'm going to expand on my disgust with newman damage output.

My best tech (Diga) does 500 w/buffs. (Keep in mind Diga's extremely slow) My second best (Dambarta) does 300 per hit. Meanwhile, my comrades are doing far higher damage than I am (400-1000+), and are not only doing it far faster, but are hitting the enemies multiple times with an attack, and sometimes in multiple places. Even if you're only doing 300 damage, we'll do a time battle here:

Fight 1: Me and my crap damage
I shoot Diga at an enemy with my strongest weapon TP-wise, a 9* rod. Diga will do 500 damage to that enemy.

versus

Fight 2: My partner
Uses a spear on a group of enemies, or a large enemy. Each hit will do 300, and due to a spear's speed, it can get in three attacks by the time my puny Diga has hit my enemy. Therefore, my partner does 1800 versus my 500.

Scenario 2, Fight 2: Partner's PA.
Uses that same spear's PA. Let's up the damage to 400, but slows down so I can get two Diga casts in. He does 2400, I do 1000. An even bigger gap.

So, you see? No matter what I do, my damage output is bullshit compared to my partners.

Twin daggers are *terrible* weapons for newman wartechers. That's no joke. they are baasically designed for classes with high ATP. Single daggers do not suffer from this problem. Nor do spears/sabers. These are the WT staple.

I spoke on sabers. It's in my post. >.>

You guys have also failed to mention that WTs have high EVP. That means blocking. blocking favors techs and guns. Advantage: newm

EVP. Please. Advantage= nobody. If you're a melee class, you don't WANT EVP. I'd rather be hit and take 10-20 damage than have my greatest source of damage stopped.

Besides, whether they hit or not, newmen WT's are paper in the wind-the slightest hit sends them reeling backwards, crashing to the ground.

You also failed to mention MST (not surprisingly, a beast weakpoint). Newmans have 2.5x the MST beasts do, and this helps them weather the ineveitable tech onslaught, if/when tey get caught in it.

What enemies have good techs, honestly. Besides, someone (I must aplogize, I'm absolute rubbish with remembering names http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif) pointed out that all the defense in the world serves you no good if you have no HP to back it up with.

-Shimarisu-

Apr 13, 2007, 08:05 PM

On 2007-04-13 17:58, malice_nyc wrote:
if you're looking for something easy, then yeah, stick with CAST fG, Newman fT, and Beast fF.
[ This Message was edited by: malice_nyc on 2007-04-13 17:59 ]

I have a human GT (main) beast WT, beast FF, human PROTRANSER (note: challenge), male newman FT (note: not optimal), cast fighgunner (back on JP) and beast going fortegunner.

What's your point?

My point: Newman sucks at WT. Rejoice, for they finally can not suck at AT. Which gets more TP than ATP, simply the ideal setup for those playing newman who want to do a LITTLE melee.

DonRoyale

Apr 13, 2007, 08:07 PM

I have yet to calculate this, but don't AT get better ATP than WT's as well? >.>

Shiro_Ryuu

Apr 13, 2007, 08:16 PM

I dunno, heard its proly the same or worse

-Shimarisu-

Apr 13, 2007, 08:18 PM

On 2007-04-13 18:07, DonRoyale wrote:
I have yet to calculate this, but don't AT get better ATP than WT's as well? >.>

When modified with melee attack levels, WT comes out on top AND can equip far more weapons.

malice_nyc

Apr 13, 2007, 08:26 PM

On 2007-04-13 18:05, -Shimarisu- wrote:

On 2007-04-13 17:58, malice_nyc wrote:
if you're looking for something easy, then yeah, stick with CAST fG, Newman fT, and Beast fF.
[ This Message was edited by: malice_nyc on 2007-04-13 17:59 ]

I have a human GT (main) beast WT, beast FF, human PROTRANSER (note: challenge), male newman FT (note: not optimal), cast fighgunner (back on JP) and beast going fortegunner.

What's your point?

My point: Newman sucks at WT. Rejoice, for they finally can not suck at AT. Which gets more TP than ATP, simply the ideal setup for those playing newman who want to do a LITTLE melee.

Ok, I guess the issue is that I don't care what you think. I could stay as fT, but then all the MP I get from CB goes to waste. Why do I have to be the "best" at everything? And furthermore, your human GT stats are all for nought if you dont do simple things like dodge megid or heal yourself when a FO isn't around (not to imply that you are a bad player; just that race bonuses are meaningless if the person behind them is terrible at the game).

I'd rather be able to play any role I like (this is PS*U*, not PSO, after all) with any character I like. I certainly am not having any problems getting to level 80 as two sub-optimal classes (GT and FG), and quite frankly, getting a high level in FG or FF shows that I am a "better" player regardless of stats. Anyway, I'm enjoying the game; that's all I pay for, not worrying about who's the "best" at whatever class. This thread remains pointless, and only serves people who wish to prove that they're choice of fictional character and fictional job in a video game is superior to everyone else's, and that they are thereby better people.

SolomonGrundy

Apr 13, 2007, 08:39 PM

Well, let's do this then:

Though they be different classes, I'm going to expand on my disgust with newman damage output.

My best tech (Diga) does 500 w/buffs. (Keep in mind Diga's extremely slow) My second best (Dambarta) does 300 per hit. Meanwhile, my comrades are doing far higher damage than I am (400-1000+), and are not only doing it far faster, but are hitting the enemies multiple times with an attack, and sometimes in multiple places. Even if you're only doing 300 damage, we'll do a time battle here:

Fight 1: Me and my crap damage
I shoot Diga at an enemy with my strongest weapon TP-wise, a 9* rod. Diga will do 500 damage to that enemy.

Let's try it differently. And you consider how HELPFUL YOU ARE TO THE TEAM, rather than your DPS.

Fight 1: you have cast Shifta and Deband on your comrades, and yourself, allowing them and you to to delvier more damage.

Then, you cast Zalure or Jellen on an enemy to help further. Or you cast reverser on a teamate who got set on fire.

So far, I realize any WT can do this, not just newman, but if your newmans has more wands on the palette...

Now, you grab your WAND (probably Rod was a typo on you part). Luck for you! this enemy is resistant to melee! It's a tengoh/jusgun/jarba, and you are playing with a fortefighter! diga/foie/ice tech du jour to the rescue. Or look, it's a kamatoze, foie sets it on fire (AND does good damage). Or look, it's a spell caster, and nosdiga stuns it, or diga silences it.

Fight 2: My partner
Uses a spear on a group of enemies, or a large enemy. Each hit will do 300, and due to a spear's speed, it can get in three attacks by the time my puny Diga has hit my enemy. Therefore, my partner does 1800 versus my 500.

Scenario 2, Fight 2: Partner's PA.
Uses that same spear's PA. Let's up the damage to 400, but slows down so I can get two Diga casts in. He does 2400, I do 1000. An even bigger gap.

Fight number 2 - it's a mixed group! there is a Kamatoze, AND gohmons. Two fighting types might be in trouble, but thanks to average ice armor (18-22%), and Newman MST, the newman WT is immune to the gohmons. Not only that, but they cast retirer on you, so you have a better chance of surving too. Isn't that swell?

I only bring up retier (a buff), because a lot of Beast WTs I've run with cast shifta/zodial, and if I'm lucky, deband.

I spoke on sabers. It's in my post. >.>

Then you must have had a green one equipped? I hit for 35 points of damage with my C rank b'duki oga +2, with a level 12/Force 2 with no bullets. To say you hit for 100 points of damage with an 487 ATP weapon of oppostie element weapon on C rank is misremembering.

EVP. Please. Advantage= nobody. If you're a melee class, you don't WANT EVP. I'd rather be hit and take 10-20 damage than have my greatest source of damage stopped.

ok. you keep saying melee like I am trying to say newman WTs excel at it. I am saying newmen want to stick to techs, then pitch in with the occasional crowd control PA, or some supplementary damage to tech resistant creatures.

Besides, whether they hit or not, newmen WT's are paper in the wind-the slightest hit sends them reeling backwards, crashing to the ground.

Better HP/DFP/EVP/MST than Cast GTs, Human PTs or Human Figunners (ok, DFP is within 10 for FGs). So, Human Figunners are now paper thin too?

What enemies have good techs, honestly. Besides, someone (I must aplogize, I'm absolute rubbish with remembering names http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif) pointed out that all the defense in the world serves you no good if you have no HP to back it up with.

kamatoze dambarta
jarba dambarta
Bees use dammegids, I believe
gohons use barta (not too dangerous if it's just 1, but

S rank vandaa foie and diga are legendary.

I think you should have moderate or low expectations of Newman melee. I think you should have moderate expectations of Newman techs though, and it's nice to be able to pitch in in all areas (tech, melee, and bullets).

EDIT: I should add that I'm pretty unhappy with the 1 dimensional-ness of my Beast FF (70/8). There are so many areas that I can't really play in effectively because I am able to contribute so little.

Endrum Relics
Demons above
Temple of Fanatics
Dual sentinel (Jarbas AND Bees!)

I basically exist to get hit, absorb damage, give a little damage back, and take all the negative status effects. And even that would be fine if it wasn't for stun/sleep/freeze, which rob me of the ability to self protect. If I want to kill the dragon all day I'm wonderful. if I want to do linear line and get a c rank, I'm golden.

[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-04-13 18:54 ]

Sychosis

Apr 13, 2007, 08:50 PM

On 2007-04-13 18:39, SolomonGrundy wrote:
So far, I realize any WT can do this, not just newman, but if your newmans has more wands on the palette...

So wait, why does a Newman have more buff/debuff wands than a Beast, or any other WT for that matter?

-Ryuki-

Apr 13, 2007, 08:54 PM

Better question. Why don't you just play however the hell YOU want to play?
Eveyrone else should really shut up and mind their own business. If people
want to do something with their character, LET them. It's not you account,
and it's definitely NOT your character to be criticizing. Stats are bull, anyway.

SolomonGrundy

Apr 13, 2007, 08:57 PM

On 2007-04-13 18:50, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-04-13 18:39, SolomonGrundy wrote:
So far, I realize any WT can do this, not just newman, but if your newmans has more wands on the palette...

So wait, why does a Newman have more buff/debuff wands than a Beast, or any other WT for that matter?

newmans are more likely to have retrier, for reasons that can only be described as obvious.

If newmans are using techs, then they will have more wands on the palette. More wands on the plalette = more likely to have space for a debuff.

SolRiver

Apr 13, 2007, 09:36 PM

Human are being mistreated, not because they sux, but because cast rocks. Cast are the high-end "jack of all trade" in "no need for TP" classes.

DonRoyale

Apr 13, 2007, 09:38 PM

The Rod was not a typo on my part. Should've mentioned this was my fT stats.

As a WT, I barely do 300 w/buffs with Diga. Making the gap even further and then proving my point. >.>

Look, you can go have fun thinking newman WT's are great, but to state it as a fact is simply impossible, because it isn't.

Now, look, I know it's hard to understand, it took me a while to understand it as well, but newmans make the worst WT's. Worst ATP + Worst ATP out of melee classes = fail.

And RE: Paper-thin:

-CAST GT's aren't SUPPOSED to be hit. They're a ranged class.
-Protransers PERIOD have crappy stats. At least their traps do damage.
-Human Fighgunners may have less HP, but have better DFP. EVP isn't an issue-it's bad either way. Techs don't knock you down. And at least Fighgunners can damage things. >.>

SolomonGrundy

Apr 13, 2007, 09:59 PM

As a WT, I barely do 300 w/buffs with Diga. Making the gap even further and then proving my point. >.>

level 12 Force2, I do 240 with retrier under level 11. so you are either a) misremembering, or b) underplaying.

Now, look, I know it's hard to understand, it took me a while to understand it as well, but newmans make the worst WT's. Worst ATP + Worst ATP out of melee classes = fail.

make you case based on facts. Cast PTs have worse ATP than newmen WTs. And lower DFP, yet still melee...

And RE: Paper-thin:

-CAST GT's aren't SUPPOSED to be hit.

all classes get hit.

-Protransers PERIOD have crappy stats. At least their traps do damage.

and yet they still melee...hurm...

-Human Fighgunners may have less HP, but have better DFP. EVP isn't an issue-it's bad either way. Techs don't knock you down. And at least Fighgunners can damage things. >.>

less than a 10% difference between Human Figunner DPF, and Wartecher. And in solo situation, Wartecher DFP will be higher (deband, and jellen i need be).

you SAID paper thin. Don't change the game on me now...

bottom line: if we stop using fF Cast or Beast stats as the standard, rather than the exception, newmen WTs start looking respectable. Not omni-powerful, but not gimped

Jey

Apr 13, 2007, 10:15 PM

PTs melee because what the heck else are they supposed to do? Can only carry so many traps, and shooting stuff with a bow gets old, fast.

(man, you two using the same avatar is messing me up)

Look, from the very start WT isn't a terribly powerful class, but it is capable of getting around the defense of many types of mobs.

Whether WT is capable of using S-rank twin daggers or no, it's not a great choice for a newman's main weapon just because the base atp+att is a rather low amount if you're going to overhunt. BUT nothing is stopping you from using them, and there is more to melee than just simply dealing damage, and wartecher has a lot more options than just swinging a weapon.

Hunter types determine the speed of kills in this game, yes, and a newman wartecher will certainly lack in that department. But geez, who cares, play the jobs you enjoy.

(and personally, humans get the super-shoddy treatment in this game. at least newmans are unmatched at fortetecher. Casts are so damned spoiled gg, they even get Attacker SUVs soon. But hey, I'll go slit my wrists in a corner while all the newmans cry.)

EphekZ

Apr 13, 2007, 10:23 PM

On 2007-04-13 18:54, RyukiZero wrote:
Better question. Why don't you just play however the hell YOU want to play?
Eveyrone else should really shut up and mind their own business. If people
want to do something with their character, LET them. It's not you account,
and it's definitely NOT your character to be criticizing. Stats are bull, anyway.

My G-d. Ryuki actually said something that was smart, or right. I can't believe I'm about to do this, but here goes....

QFT

Sekani

Apr 13, 2007, 10:50 PM

On 2007-04-13 20:23, EphekZ wrote:

On 2007-04-13 18:54, RyukiZero wrote:
Better question. Why don't you just play however the hell YOU want to play?
Eveyrone else should really shut up and mind their own business. If people
want to do something with their character, LET them. It's not you account,
and it's definitely NOT your character to be criticizing. Stats are bull, anyway.

My G-d. Ryuki actually said something that was smart, or right. I can't believe I'm about to do this, but here goes....

QFT

Too little, too late. This thread has already gone to the people who do care about stats, so the rest of us might as well just stay out of the way.

CyarVictor

Apr 13, 2007, 10:52 PM

Yea, most are brick walls in here. I don't even know why I bother. I've stated the same thing before in this thread and yet bah...... The reason number 1 why I'm hating these forums, just as bad as the official site's with nothing but fanboys who care about an e-penis.

Sychosis

Apr 14, 2007, 12:00 AM

On 2007-04-13 18:57, SolomonGrundy wrote:
newmans are more likely to have retrier, for reasons that can only be described as obvious.

If newmans are using techs, then they will have more wands on the palette. More wands on the plalette = more likely to have space for a debuff.

That doesn't make sense. If a Newman has more wands on the palette, it is due to using attack techs. It isn't going to leave them with any more room for buffs/debuffs.

EphekZ

Apr 14, 2007, 12:05 AM

On 2007-04-13 20:50, Sekani wrote:

On 2007-04-13 20:23, EphekZ wrote:

On 2007-04-13 18:54, RyukiZero wrote:
Better question. Why don't you just play however the hell YOU want to play?
Eveyrone else should really shut up and mind their own business. If people
want to do something with their character, LET them. It's not you account,
and it's definitely NOT your character to be criticizing. Stats are bull, anyway.

My G-d. Ryuki actually said something that was smart, or right. I can't believe I'm about to do this, but here goes....

QFT

Too little, too late. This thread has already gone to the people who do care about stats, so the rest of us might as well just stay out of the way.

well, the main point of my post is really me noting that ryuki actually does have a brain cell or half of one....but it's a start!

HerdsmanOfYrr

Apr 14, 2007, 01:27 AM

On 2007-04-13 19:38, DonRoyale wrote:

-Protransers PERIOD have crappy stats. At least their traps do damage.

Have you ever leveled a PT?
I have a beast PT lv 7 and its stats are anything but crappy. I have a total of 80 less health than the same charater as a Fortefighter(though the FF is lv 5). I get Axes, Gernades, and bows. Mass damage, knockback, and SE. and if they are placing SE the traps will get the job done. AND making Jarbcicles and beating them senseless as a beast is just fun. Yeah they have bad stats at PT0 but you level and HUGE BOOST

On 2007-04-13 19:38, DonRoyale wrote:
-Human Fighgunners may have less HP, but have better DFP. EVP isn't an issue-it's bad either way. Techs don't knock you down. And at least Fighgunners can damage things. >.>

yes figs damage things...at a rate of 100 per shot..sometimes 200...

Raysa

Apr 14, 2007, 02:43 AM

This is turning into the WoW Mage Forums! Awesomesauce. Keep up the good bitching. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

SolomonGrundy

Apr 14, 2007, 03:41 AM

On 2007-04-13 22:00, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-04-13 18:57, SolomonGrundy wrote:
newmans are more likely to have retrier, for reasons that can only be described as obvious.

If newmans are using techs, then they will have more wands on the palette. More wands on the plalette = more likely to have space for a debuff.

That doesn't make sense. If a Newman has more wands on the palette, it is due to using attack techs. It isn't going to leave them with any more room for buffs/debuffs.

sure it does. think about it. you only need a few attack techs per area, plus a some buffs, and resta/reverser. if the total number of techs you 'need' is an odd number, then you have a 'slot' left over: voila debuff.

Or, to keep it simple: my foie wand has jellen on it.

Ether

Apr 14, 2007, 04:01 AM

On 2007-04-13 17:39, DonRoyale wrote:
Add that with the fact that every hit sends me scrambling for reinforcements, regardless of what mission/rank I'm doing, really makes me frown on newmans.

I don't care how many times I can Resta myself and be done with it. I'd rather not have to put Resta on every rod I have, minimizing my damage. I'd also not prefer having to heal EVERY TWO FUCKING SECONDS, thank you very much. At least my other characters don't have to heal every hit they take or risk death.

So, yeah, newmans suck. At anything and everything.

ITT people who dont know what elemental armor is

AweOfShe

Apr 14, 2007, 04:10 AM

Owned

Hozanto

Apr 14, 2007, 04:18 AM

On 2007-04-11 11:31, XDeviousX wrote:

On 2007-04-11 11:29, RyukiZero wrote:
Humans suck so much. They have crappy stats, and don't excel in anything.
Why waste time with playing a Human?

Sorry to post a link to my topic but I'm tired of replying to these posts...

http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=139620&forum=20&12

BWAHAHAHA!!! I just got done lookin at that Humans rule at multi jobing!

Hozanto

Apr 14, 2007, 04:20 AM

On 2007-04-11 11:37, BunnyGirl wrote:
its fun to hear wat ppl thinks sometime. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

yeah, you get to see how narrow minded everyone is...

-Ryuki-

Apr 14, 2007, 05:34 AM

I realized I had a lot of typos when I typed that post up. Thanks Ephekz, for making me feel so great about myself =p

Mystil

Apr 14, 2007, 07:27 AM

On 2007-04-14 02:01, Ether wrote:

On 2007-04-13 17:39, DonRoyale wrote:
Add that with the fact that every hit sends me scrambling for reinforcements, regardless of what mission/rank I'm doing, really makes me frown on newmans.

I don't care how many times I can Resta myself and be done with it. I'd rather not have to put Resta on every rod I have, minimizing my damage. I'd also not prefer having to heal EVERY TWO FUCKING SECONDS, thank you very much. At least my other characters don't have to heal every hit they take or risk death.

So, yeah, newmans suck. At anything and everything.

ITT people who dont know what elemental armor is

Doesn't really help much if your base DFP is low.

Sychosis

Apr 14, 2007, 08:00 AM

On 2007-04-14 01:41, SolomonGrundy wrote:
sure it does. think about it. you only need a few attack techs per area, plus a some buffs, and resta/reverser. if the total number of techs you 'need' is an odd number, then you have a 'slot' left over: voila debuff.

Or, to keep it simple: my foie wand has jellen on it.

My point was that buffs/debuffs/healing should be 'needed' techs, and as such, a Newman isn't going to have any more access to them than a Beast or CAST.

Sexy_Raine

Apr 14, 2007, 08:29 AM

On 2007-04-13 14:27, Mikaga wrote:

On 2007-04-13 13:08, chibiLegolas wrote:
T
[quote]TP: Yes, TP only is useful in 3 expert classes. But that's one form of ST's way of balancing the races.
Funny how 6 classes use ATP/HP/DFP, or how all 7 use HP. Someone want to tell me who's worst at all four of those stats?

Yeah, that right there is pretty much the reason I won't waste my time with anything other than fortetecher.

And this is what bothered me ever since PSU started.

So screw you Sega!

Shiro_Ryuu

Apr 14, 2007, 09:14 AM

You know, I kinda prefer it if they increased the ATP of melee weapons to the point that it will depend less on base stats and more on the weapon itself, that way, the difference in damage might be less. Same with armor.

Mikaga

Apr 14, 2007, 01:49 PM

Well, I could respond to that the same way I do to the following:

Why don't you just play however the hell YOU want to play?
I do. So I fail to see how that's relevant to the debate that Newman typically sucks. If anything it should strengthen my points since I'm not making them out of "wanting my race to be better". Instead I'm in it because why the heck shouldn't the races be fair?

AweOfShe

Apr 14, 2007, 02:10 PM

I'd also like to add, that if there are any Casts that think MST is a useless stat, and is a stat that doesn't matter... well, why don't you leave Parum once in awhile... for more than 1 hour. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Apr 14, 2007, 02:13 PM

On 2007-04-14 12:10, AweOfShe wrote:
I'd also like to add, that if there are any Casts that think MST is a useless stat, and is a stat that doesn't matter... well, why don't you leave Parum once in awhile... for more than 1 hour. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

No no, that requires playing outside of Crimson Beast/Labs.

No, just, heaven forbid http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Mikaga

Apr 14, 2007, 02:30 PM

Way to completely ignore that we're all saying Cast HP > Human MST. It doesn't matter what enemies or what technics are being fired. Stick a Human Fighgunner (with zomg bonus) and a Cast Fighgunner in front of a monster firing ~100 damage techs and the Human will die first.

AweOfShe

Apr 14, 2007, 03:01 PM

On 2007-04-14 12:30, Mikaga wrote:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL167/1964118/16010231/245281858.jpg

Okay.

I'd also like to add that watching both a Cast and a Human (both fighgunners coincidentaly http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif), in Forest Infiltration S2, getting hit by Ohgohmon's Barta while stuck in traps, is quite hilarious.

Guess who died first. The Cast. Moral of this story? STFU with you statistics conjecture! While you're here crying about stats, many young Casts and Humans ARE DYING FOR YOUR COUNTRY!

EDIT: Or planet.

[ This Message was edited by: AweOfShe on 2007-04-14 13:04 ]

Shiro_Ryuu

Apr 14, 2007, 03:03 PM

On 2007-04-14 12:13, PJ wrote:

On 2007-04-14 12:10, AweOfShe wrote:
I'd also like to add, that if there are any Casts that think MST is a useless stat, and is a stat that doesn't matter... well, why don't you leave Parum once in awhile... for more than 1 hour. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

No no, that requires playing outside of Crimson Beast/Labs.

No, just, heaven forbid http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

OMG, outside of Crimson Beast or Labs? I can't, outside of those missions, man, its VERY scary, must...stay...in Crimson Beast...or...Labs...outside those missions...RLY scary.

AweOfShe

Apr 14, 2007, 03:08 PM

I still stand by the fact that Polty, Pannon, and other smalle, weak, innocent creatures, get the most unfair treatment.

Because we're all assholes that like to take them away from their families.

Shiro_Ryuu

Apr 14, 2007, 03:12 PM

What? Are you kidding me? I am NOT messing with a gang of Lapuchas, I don't want anything to do with those guys. I saw one of my friends, a Beast fF ganged up on by a mob of Lapuchas, it ended up real ugly for that poor Beast. Those Lapuchas are a real menace I tell you.

SolRiver

Apr 14, 2007, 03:25 PM

On 2007-04-14 13:01, AweOfShe wrote:

On 2007-04-14 12:30, Mikaga wrote:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL167/1964118/16010231/245281858.jpg

Okay.

I'd also like to add that watching both a Cast and a Human (both fighgunners coincidentaly http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif), in Forest Infiltration S2, getting hit by Ohgohmon's Barta while stuck in traps, is quite hilarious.

Guess who died first. The Cast. Moral of this story? STFU with you statistics conjecture! While you're here crying about stats, many young Casts and Humans ARE DYING FOR YOUR COUNTRY!

EDIT: Or planet.

[ This Message was edited by: AweOfShe on 2007-04-14 13:04 ]

Although there are missing information (level, job level, armor type, armor %, unit type), I do believe that human should outlast cast in everyway when continuously getting pounded by tech. But cast are not anywhere close in "dying easily".

So the point is, resta fix everything, and all the defensive stat aside HP is rather pale in compared to armor %. Even HP is rather weak when your armor % is way up there. Against megid though, MST is everything (if you exclude playing skills).

If there are more monsters that drain hp with tech, cast would just be a free hp battery for those mobs (if you consider that dmg done = hp stolen).

Also, PT melee because axe is awesome.