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DurakkenX
Apr 19, 2007, 08:54 AM
does anyone have one? I'm trying to figure out how the Gurhal system is laid out...it's a really reather funky system the best i can tell with both neudaiz and moatoob orbiting really rather fast...

If you assume Parum has the same year as Earth or pretty close to it you have to assume that Neudaiz/moatoob can have a year no longer than about 122/243days which is really odd cuz they are all rather close to each other at points which means they have to have very uncircular orbits and these orbits must also remain in the golden zone of their solar system which would be very hard to do without the 3 planets crashing into each other...

anyways bored and curious so someone please direct me to this video if you know where it is.

Aralia
Apr 19, 2007, 09:47 AM
Now.. I don't wanna get into the scientamologicalogy of all this because my brain will start hurting... =P

But...

I'd have to say it'd be similar to our system except the 3 planets would revolve around their star at 3 different speeds, allowing them to retain a common distance between themselves. YET, I am also inclined to believe that, since the colony would need to be between the planets or at least near them at all times, that the planets would have a more elliptical orbit than the earth, mars, and venus have. I'd say they have a similar orbit to Pluto and neptune, with one of the 3 planets assuming a similar orbit of pluto, yet slightly adjusted to the others to allow none of them to collide. (with the colony situated just outside the 3 since the varying orbits of the 3 planets would likely rip the colony into pieces cause of the gravitational pull...

(and as I recall there was no video of the 3 planets revolving... and it is very possible to allow the 3 planets to have a 365 day year, but I'd say they'd have a longer year... since there's 2 stars to revolve not just one sun. [thanks to moatoob's dusk mission for allowing us to see this first hand])

btw, if there's evidence against anything in this post, feel free to correct it. As most of this is speculation from my part.

Omega_Weltall
Apr 19, 2007, 09:49 AM
And if you look on Newdayz you can see Parum as if it was EXTREMELY close, almost as if it was a moon. Now, when we see Mars, Venus and Jupiter from Earth, they just look like realy bright stars with the naked eye, not another moon like object. I know they did that for "Oh cool!" affect.

Aralia
Apr 19, 2007, 09:55 AM
Assuming that one of the planets is larger than the others, which Parum very well could be, The other 2 planets could be satellites. Though, they wouldn't be considered "planets" at that time...
Though that would allow for the 3 planets and a colony to exist in one single orbit revolving around each other...

But again.. they wouldn't be considered "planets" anymore.

confucious
Apr 19, 2007, 10:13 AM
I'm not sure that the planets would need to be at a fixed relative distance as they have the gate system. I would expect that to allow the planets to remain in fairly normal orbits and still allow people to move between them quickly. What images are people using to make these guesses?

The colony appears to be orbiting Parum. http://psupedia.info/index.php?title=GUARDIANS_Colony

Aralia
Apr 19, 2007, 10:21 AM
I was going through experience in game, offline and online. Though I didn't take the gate system into consideration, but I guess that does allow the planets to retain a natural orbit.

HerdsmanOfYrr
Apr 19, 2007, 10:32 AM
I would think that two orbiting one is a good idea. Especially with that you can see Parum from both neudaiz and moatoob, but you cant see either moatoob or nuedaiz from eachother. I dont remember which ones you can see from Parum...i never really paid attention to it. As for the note that they wouldnt really be planets themselves, they could still be called planets like Pluto is. Pluto is merely a gigantic asteroid in an odd orbit on the outside of the system.

DurakkenX
Apr 19, 2007, 10:37 AM
there is plenty wrong... all three planets can not have the same year length based on a singular fact. They are in a perfect triangle with the sun in the middle for the confinement system, but they are also all clumped together on one side of the sun at another point in the year. This means that 1 has to move at about just below 2x the speed of the slowest and the other would need to be about 3x the speed of the slowest...

the Guardians colonoy clearly orbits Parum.

the orbits that they have are very odd... they are at a 45 degree angle to the solar plane and at least two of them must have highly eliptical orbits.

There is not 2 stars and this is shown very clearly in the 3rd scene for the story mode. There is also the video that shows them when they are at the confinement stage which is what i'm looking for...it is right after the massive protect the relic chapter missions.

Both parum and neudaiz are pretty close to moatoob alot so it would be easy for them to look like suns and such. The orbits i can figure out have them crossing several times a year.

Aralia
Apr 19, 2007, 11:55 AM
like said, speculation. (and lack of sleep)

But yeah, I can see where alot of it wouldn't work, and I forgot about that one cut-scene. (I sorta skimmed trough the story mode to unlock extra mode a while back)

Though, I'm trying to rationalize a realistic situation where 3 planets could all support life in a limited space from the star... cause remember, Earth is at just the right distance from the sun, too much closer and we'd be a barren wasteland of deserts, and too much farther and we'd be an ice ball. assuming the guhral system's star was similar to earth's sun, they'd have to all be fairly close, on an orbital perspective, to be capable of sustaining life. Moatoob would obviously be the closest to the star, as it's the desert planet. and parum would probably be the further away, as I have yet to see a "natural" ice field on neudaiz.. and parum has more earth-like characteristics.

Though, I'm no astro-physicist, I'm betting it'd be a VERY unstable balance to maintain.

And no-where, as I recall, does it state that all 3 planets rotate at a common rate. meaning simply that neudaiz's day could theoretically be longer than Parum's day and vice versa. (unless my memory is playing tricks on me and someone mentions it in story mode.. but I doubt it cause it'd be useless trivia)

Might I add, finally, that all speculation has been deduced from the most logical explanations possible.

((ugh, sometimes you need to be so careful with wording.. before re-reading my post it seemed right but looking at it again, I could only imagine the numbers of posts I'd get saying something about me possibly re-tooling the physics of the game when most of my posts are just logical speculation.))

DurakkenX
Apr 19, 2007, 12:08 PM
You can say one planet is closer than another because we have no way to know without the mathmatics behind it how big the orbits actually are....on thing is for certain though...at one point all 3 are equal distance from the sun and at another neudaiz is slightly closer than parum/moatoob

nothing is said about their days being equal... i speak in earth days as it's easier for people to speak about and is generally the one used.


also as far as your speculation using habitat that isn't a logical assumption at all when you know more about the facts. There is a band around a star that is just right. Venus, Mars, and Earth are all in this band and all could have at one point supported life. As far as we know they could still support microbial life and they pretty much died due to various causes that just happened to not hit earth. Though there is also something else that we have that those planets don't have >.>


also...pluto is not a planet v.v

pikachief
Apr 19, 2007, 12:10 PM
yes it is!!

oh and is tehre really any science to it? or did sega just make it look cool? i never think that game developers put this much thought into something not many people would worry about, but so little into what people do worry about http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Aralia
Apr 19, 2007, 12:25 PM
yes, we have 2 things those planets don't one is the magnetic belt and the 2nd is the ozone layer.

And no, there's plenty of logic behind my speculation. I took into consideration the belt around the stars that allows for support of life. even mentioned it briefly

Either way, I'd probably think better with some sleep and I think we're seeing eye to eye on this just not expressing the reasonings the same way.

All I can say right now, without going back to story mode (which I loathed and wish to never go through again) is that the 3 planets tend to have very similar relations to venus, earth, and mars. Guhral seems to be the ideal existance of what the 3 of our planets could have been had greenhouse gasses not overcome venus and had mars' soil been fertile enough to produce oxygen bearing plants. (also who knows, a few million years from now, our system could wind up being guhral, since there's no proof that venus' and mars' ecosystems couldn't become ideal for life in those times.

Edit: knew I forgot something.. Pluto was discovered and deemed "planet X" only in more recent years have scientists decided to declare it "not a planet" regardless of how it came to be part of our solar system, and what it is composed of.. (not gonna go into it here.. let's just say I am very well aware of the facts and theories of the solar system and it's creation, Pluto deserves every right to be a planet as it meets the 2 primary characteristics.. 1 it has a satellite, and 2 it revolves around the sun. if there was a 3rd, it'd be that it needs a core, which we all know all planets have. Pluto's core would be made of densely frozen methane and therefore it meets all requirements... (seriously scientists change their minds more than women, when it comes to pluto.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Aralia on 2007-04-19 10:31 ]</font>

Sinue_v2
Apr 19, 2007, 12:26 PM
Sonic Team didn't think through the layout of the Gurhal system very well. The proximity of each planet to the next can be chalked up to two factors...

1. Artistic design. They figured some of this shit just looked cooler and more "sci-fi".

2. It could just be a quirk of the conjuction, er, unification point - which only happens once every 200 years at the earlierst (not within our lifetimes, which includes casts who can live to be 200 years old or greater). This is why the timing was so important, because the planets don't usually align like that.

According to the chapter 1 closing cinematic - Parum is the First planet, Neudaiz is the second, and Moatoob is the third. Why the arid hot world is furtherst from the sun - I don't know. At least Algol had it right in having Motavia (desert world) being the closest to the sun, Palma (the terran world) being the middle, and Dezolis (the frozen ice wastes) being the third and furthest.

(Although Moat and Palm's orbits changed durring the conjuction, but by that point - terraforming technology was not far off and could sustain Palma as well as terraform Motavia)

SabZero
Apr 19, 2007, 12:54 PM
Spoilers, obviously:

3 confinement activation screens:
http://www.getintothegame.net/upload/uploads/psu_confinement1.jpg
http://www.getintothegame.net/upload/uploads/psu_confinement2.jpg
http://www.getintothegame.net/upload/uploads/psu_confinement3.jpg


Ending credit screen (includes the sun):
http://www.getintothegame.net/upload/uploads/psu_endcredits1.jpg

XDeviousX
Apr 19, 2007, 12:55 PM
There is a moon of saturn that has miro-organisms living in the atmosphere... as for the "life band" theory, that is true, but for "HUMAN" life. I'm sure some animals on earth could live in different conditions with very little to moderate trouble. The truth of the maatter is life can spring up anywhere, but WE as a race cannot sustain ourselves just anywhere...

Since the characters in PSU are human or human variants then I'd say the planets could be as close as Venus/earth/mars are with a varrying degree of distance, but it makes the gate system seem strange.... How do the gates follow the orbits around the sun unless there are an astronomical amount of rings, or unless the planets are stationary but still rotating.... There could be an advanced gravitation system to place the planets it a "hold pattern" and if you know anything about gravity you know;

A) it is a weaker force then it mathmatically should be...

B) it can be negated by an opposing force of gravity like the "eye" of a tornado...

C) Planets do not need to orbit for people or objects to stay in place, only to sustain life and climate...

It would also explain the lack of seasonal change or climate. Even in story mode the weather stayed the same, on all three planets, and thats just unnatural...

They could also be locked in posistion ine the same distance from each othe artificially while still orbiting... Who knows.

ps. I'd like to add that I'm sure the planets do have a natural obit but that still makes the gate system strange...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-04-19 11:10 ]</font>

XDeviousX
Apr 19, 2007, 01:08 PM
On 2007-04-19 10:26, Sinue_v2 wrote:
Sonic Team didn't think through the layout of the Gurhal system very well. The proximity of each planet to the next can be chalked up to two factors...

1. Artistic design. They figured some of this shit just looked cooler and more "sci-fi".

2. It could just be a quirk of the conjuction, er, unification point - which only happens once every 200 years at the earlierst (not within our lifetimes, which includes casts who can live to be 200 years old or greater). This is why the timing was so important, because the planets don't usually align like that.

According to the chapter 1 closing cinematic - Parum is the First planet, Neudaiz is the second, and Moatoob is the third. Why the arid hot world is furtherst from the sun - I don't know. At least Algol had it right in having Motavia (desert world) being the closest to the sun, Palma (the terran world) being the middle, and Dezolis (the frozen ice wastes) being the third and furthest.

(Although Moat and Palm's orbits changed durring the conjuction, but by that point - terraforming technology was not far off and could sustain Palma as well as terraform Motavia)



Mars is further from the sun then earth... If the sun can't evaporate water and there is a lack of rainfall any environment will become a desert. Africa is surrounded by cold currents of water which is why they ge so little rain fall, not enough water evaporates for it to rain, so vegitation dies and the tempurature on land rises... Hence mars/moatoob..

Sinue_v2
Apr 19, 2007, 01:56 PM
Mars is further from the sun then earth... If the sun can't evaporate water and there is a lack of rainfall any environment will become a desert.

Uh, that's different. Water can, and does, evaporate on Mars - but in very sparce amounts. Enough though to create some cloud formations, mist, and even dew. Mars's atmosphere is primarily Carbon Dioxide though, which accounts for it's warm temperatures. And by warm, I mean like highs of around 60 - 80 digrees feirenheit durring the day. Without that atmosphere, Mars's temperature would plummet.

Moatoob's atmosphere is likely compairable to our own - therefore it woudln't have the greenhouse gasses necessary to trap enough heat to make it a comfortable 60 digrees - much less a scorching hot desert.

To throw another gear into the works - Moatoob supposedly used to be a tresstrial planet... which means temperatures would have had to have been raised somehow.

XDeviousX
Apr 19, 2007, 05:27 PM
On 2007-04-19 11:56, Sinue_v2 wrote:

Mars is further from the sun then earth... If the sun can't evaporate water and there is a lack of rainfall any environment will become a desert.

Uh, that's different. Water can, and does, evaporate on Mars - but in very sparce amounts. Enough though to create some cloud formations, mist, and even dew. Mars's atmosphere is primarily Carbon Dioxide though, which accounts for it's warm temperatures. And by warm, I mean like highs of around 60 - 80 digrees feirenheit durring the day. Without that atmosphere, Mars's temperature would plummet.

Moatoob's atmosphere is likely compairable to our own - therefore it woudln't have the greenhouse gasses necessary to trap enough heat to make it a comfortable 60 digrees - much less a scorching hot desert.

To throw another gear into the works - Moatoob supposedly used to be a tresstrial planet... which means temperatures would have had to have been raised somehow.



Mars' temperature might plummet with an atmosphere, depending on a few factors I don't feel the need to explane weather/convection/atmospheres at present and even deserts have mist and dew from time to time and rain at some points as well, also I never said mars was warmer or colder, just desert-like due to lack of moisture as the ice caps never melt for verying reasons...

As for moatoob's heat, there are a lot of caves and gaps in the planet so maybe geo-thermal heat from all of the mines? Over mining could also be why the planet is so warm, but who knows.

DurakkenX
Apr 19, 2007, 06:03 PM
ok i noticed a few things about those pictures...

i was misinterpretting the glowing ball in the center as the sun... it clearly is not in 2 of the 3 pictures as in 1 it isn't there and in the other it's a trick of perspective...

My new theory is that the all three planets have orbits where they are actually a 3 planet system locked in a gravitational balancing act of some sort that only goes into a perfect triangle every 10,000 years. It is weird, but fully possible.

that's right all three planets, act as 1 or are so close together in their orbits that it just appears that way. They are also at an angle to the sun so odd that i'd be willing to say that the planets actually used to be 1 planet in it's early life, got hit and separated into 3 planets and a moon. (moatoob had 1 moon that crashed into it, creating it's ring).

What this means is that all 3 planets are actually about equal in size. This also explains how the tracks are placed so that travel to them are easy....btw the GUARDIANS colony doesn't orbit, as if it did it would b going around the planet which it doesn't it is just positioned fairly close to moatoob and the ST team has either very little knowledge of this type of thing, doesn't care, or felt that it is the best way to describe to the general audience.

A2K
Apr 19, 2007, 06:23 PM
On 2007-04-19 16:03, DurakkenX wrote:
btw the GUARDIANS colony doesn't orbit, as if it did it would b going around the planet which it doesn't it is just positioned fairly close to moatoob and the ST team has either very little knowledge of this type of thing, doesn't care, or felt that it is the best way to describe to the general audience.

Geosynchronous orbit?

Angelo
Apr 19, 2007, 06:55 PM
Doubt this helps, but this is the way it worked in the older games:

http://phantasystarwiki.com/images/f/f3/Algolsketch.jpg

Order closest to sun:

Motavia/Motabia/"Moatoob"

Palma/Paruma/"Parum"

Dezolis/Dezorisu/"New Dez"/"Neudaiz"

Sinue_v2
Apr 19, 2007, 09:38 PM
If you look from the viewing lobby, The Guardian Colony is closest to Parum, and furthest from Moatoob. The distance between the planets are not equal. I'm sure the planets as seen from other planets is not consistant either.

Sonic Team just didn't give a fuck.

They don't know how to do Sci-Fi, hence the lack of aliens in space.

Oh, and that diagram is somewhat mis-informing. That's how Algol originally looked in PSI. A conjuction of planets caused Palma and Motavia to switch orbits, and the destruction of the event is what caused the Mother Brain to rise to power as her public works and rebuilding initiatives gained the populaces trust. Palma later was destoryed leaving nothing but an asteroid belt. It also makes no reference to Ryukros.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2007-04-19 19:48 ]</font>

XDeviousX
Apr 19, 2007, 09:47 PM
On 2007-04-19 19:38, Sinue_v2 wrote:
If you look from the viewing lobby, The Guardian Colony is closest to Parum, and furthest from Moatoob. The distance between the planets are not equal. I'm sure the planets as seen from other planets is not consistant either.

Sonic Team just didn't give a fuck.

They don't know how to do Sci-Fi, hence the lack of aliens in space.



Wouldn't all the native creatures, seed, and ancient civilizations be of an alien nature? You do study relic sites not made by humans...

Omega_Weltall
Apr 19, 2007, 09:54 PM
wait... in the old phantasy star games (well in ps2-4 anyway) its Palma Motavia and Dezo. I dont remember Motavia being closest to the sun

Sinue_v2
Apr 19, 2007, 09:55 PM
Dude, not even close to being the same thing.

Native creatures? No.. those are monsters. It's like trying to say that Moogles and Chocobos are aliens.

SeeD? You don't even know what the SeeD is, and thus far it's manifested itself more as a virus. Other than the, well, the monsters.

Ruins of an ancient civilization? Maybe... except you don't actually see any of them. You run around in their ruins, not studying them, but just killing monsters.

Nothing even close to aliens you see in other staples of Sci-fi, like Star Wars (which Phantasy Star is partially based on), Star Trek, Babylon 5, ect... not even nearly on par with, say, even Phantasy Star. At least the old series had intelligent alien races you could interact with, or that would join your party and fight alongside you.


in the old phantasy star games (well in ps2-4 anyway) its Palma Motavia and Dezo.

See the above post... that picture is of Algol circa 342AW, before the Grand Conjunction.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2007-04-19 19:57 ]</font>

Laonex954x
Apr 19, 2007, 10:02 PM
i dont no if this helps at all but im pretty sure the guardians colony orbits parum and if your really intrested if you go to the end of linear line(unsafe passage and fight for food)when you go to the end lobby you can see all the planets out the window

also the planets can make a triangle kinda because the confinment defence thig in story mode links all those a-photon reactor shield thing together...also when fighting dulk fakis s2 his second form takes plas on a middle plate form between all the planets that is part of the confinment defence thing...

i dont no if your really that intrested play story mode over and pay close attention to the cut seen lol

XDeviousX
Apr 19, 2007, 10:07 PM
On 2007-04-19 19:55, Sinue_v2 wrote:
Dude, not even close to being the same thing.

Native creatures? No.. those are monsters. It's like trying to say that Moogles and Chocobos are aliens.

SeeD? You don't even know what the SeeD is, and thus far it's manifested itself more as a virus. Other than the, well, the monsters.

Ruins of an ancient civilization? Maybe... except you don't actually see any of them. You run around in their ruins, not studying them, but just killing monsters.

Nothing even close to aliens you see in other staples of Sci-fi, like Star Wars (which Phantasy Star is partially based on), Star Trek, Babylon 5, ect... not even nearly on par with, say, even Phantasy Star. At least the old series had intelligent alien races you could interact with, or that would join your party and fight alongside you.


in the old phantasy star games (well in ps2-4 anyway) its Palma Motavia and Dezo.

See the above post... that picture is of Algol circa 342AW, before the Grand Conjunction.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2007-04-19 19:57 ]</font>


Higher intellegent Alien life isn't what you or anyone is really looking for, but I'll make a new thread to address this... Also, there is a reason they haven't explored the ancient ruins, mainly the huge creatures there..

DurakkenX
Apr 20, 2007, 01:18 AM
Gurhal looks nothing like that

It's closer to if you -
turned that image upside down
eliminated Palma AND Dezolis
broke Motavia into 3 planets

All 3 planets have the same type orbit as Motavia with Neudaiz being the closest to the sun. This is how it is show in all pictures. This means, given our knowledge of just physics, neudaiz either goes around the sun really fast and moatoob follows parum, but at a slower speed, or that all three are acting as a single planetary body rather than 3. Given our knowledge of how they travel through space generally speaking we can assume that the second is correct.

As far as the colony...
It is not in a geosynchronus orbit. That means that it orbits the planet but remains above an exact place on the planet. It in fact does not orbit at all. The colony is closest to Parum with it's "bottom" directed at Parum. This can be seen easily in the videos.

The Colony, if you use the sun as a center, would be in a line going exactly south-east from the sun. the colony also would be on it's side and the top would be facing you from this position.

Neudaiz, from the colony, is if you were to go up, using the colony's up/down as which direct to go, and towards the sun a bit.

Moatoob is positioned almost directly above it, but it is slightly to the east of the sun more.

Sekani
Apr 20, 2007, 01:34 AM
The planets are arranged the way they are for aesthetic resons only, with absolutely no regard for the laws of physics or even the laws of common sense. Trying to explain this situation with scientfic fact is about as productive as giving yourself an ice cream headache.

But then again, some people enjoy ice cream headaches, so feel free to continue.

Zorafim
Apr 20, 2007, 01:48 AM
I would like to take this time to point out that using the entire solar system to create a seal that banishes evil is one of the coolest concepts I have ever seen, and the actual creating of the seal was the coolest point of story mode.
Shame that story mode went down hill from there, but I really hope that system is seen again. Not only is it a badass reference, it's also badass in and of itself.

Flame6
Apr 20, 2007, 04:35 AM
Check out parum from the look out after FFF. The planet is HUGE!

Sinue_v2
Apr 20, 2007, 07:10 AM
The planets of Gurhal are not all on the same syncronous orbit, and it's readily disprovable by the fact that they even HAVE a unification point. Were all three planets on the same orbit, then they would have to be exactly aligned to counteract gravity, and be traveling at the exact same momentum, or else collide with each other over time. If that were the case, then there would be no such thing as a "Unification Point", because all three planets would be in a perpetual state of unification.

Notice the diagram of Algol above... and note Motavia's tilted orbit axis in compairison to Palma and Dezolis. It is possible, with some modifications, to align those planets up in a similar fashion to what we see Gurhal doing durring the unification. Were the orbits of the Gurhalian system at tilted axis to each other, it's possible for the same thing to occur - albiet, very rarely. Hence the very strict timetable on the unification and the insistance that it be done right, because the next unification wouldn't occur "within our lifetimes" - which includes casts who can live to be upwards of 200+ years old.

As for the PPT shuttles, it's best to just not think too much on that subject. It's not like oversights like that haven't slipped past before. Remember Cowboy Bebop? They had jump-gates from planet to planet also (probably what inspired the PPT system), despite the fact that CB's solar system was based on our own - and the orbits between Mars, Venus, and Jupiter varry greatly and consistantly.

It's just one of those "Anime" things you're supposed to take at face value without explanation.

SaiSpagS
Apr 20, 2007, 07:28 AM
Maybe the planets are just all on the same orbit but stay equidistant from each other rotating the same way round.

DurakkenX
Apr 20, 2007, 10:40 AM
Sinue_v2, as i have said... they are all on the same orbital plane...I could buy what you said if all three planets were aligned with the sun, but they aren't. They are all at 45 degree angle from the sun.

the laws of gravity and time are more likely the things overlooked in this situation.

Also though it is fairly odd and would prolly come to the out come you stated the fact is that it is still possible to happen in a 1 out of a billion occurrence.

Its more likely the orbits of all three planets are either linked together or are just so close that it is very very dangerous and are slightly different so that 1 goes faster or slower during the same period than the other and so it is not so much the particular formation being in synch as much as it is in "perfect" synch, as in they may always be in a triangle, or even a equilateral triangle, but may almost never in a equilateral triangle that has lines between the planets in the correct way.