Ok.... what DO percents do?

[Garanz-Baranz]

Like the title says, what do they really do?

for weapons-
Do they icrease/reduce the ATP of the weapon, or your total ATP with the weapon equiped? Also, does that affect it's ATA as well?

For Armors-
Do they increase/reduce the DFP and MST of an Armor's stats, or your TOTAL stat with the armor on? also, does it affect the EVP?

[Genoa]

... hmm, not sure if it adds as elemental damage or not, because I haven't really noticed myself a damage change if an enemy uses Retier or not. It might add ATP damage to the opposing element. And armor... I would think MST, but ... I guess ... geeze <_> This is a very good question... I hope someone can answer this :3 ... heh, seeing a reply then seeing it's not your answer must be somewhat dissapointing >_>

[Ether]

This won't be 100% accurate, but its a basic interpretation

For weapons, it multiplies your total ATP with weapon. So if you have 600 atp, and a 400 atp saber for 1000, and a 50% weapon, you essentially have 1500 ATP now. No effect on ATA that I know of

With armor, the % is a flat reduction that is applied before DFP. So if enemy would normally hit you for 100 before DFP, with a 50% armor, he'll hit for 50.

[Genoa]

wow, I suppose that's why people pay so much for high elemental % weapons >_> I should use my melee's classes a little more often.

Had no idea about the armor being a reduction before the DFP stat. Very nice

[imfanboy]

And also, if you're using a PA, THAT multiplier gets added before the elemental %... and if you have shifta, THAT multiplier gets added before you count the elemental %...

For the math moguls out there, that means that the potentially biggest % is the final multiplier, which means that it does a LOT more damage.

[Mayu]

On 2007-05-16 22:58, Ether wrote:
This won't be 100% accurate, but its a basic interpretation

For weapons, it multiplies your total ATP with weapon. So if you have 600 atp, and a 400 atp saber for 1000, and a 50% weapon, you essentially have 1500 ATP now. No effect on ATA that I know of

With armor, the % is a flat reduction that is applied before DFP. So if enemy would normally hit you for 100 before DFP, with a 50% armor, he'll hit for 50.

[Genoa]

Are you serious? Shifta and PA %'s go BEFORE the elemental?.... That's absurd. >_> So I don't want to hear people copmlain about ATP boost lvl.1 anymore <_>

[Mayu]

Level one buffs is better then Zero buffs http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif unless the person likes using the NPC type which is 20% - Level 3

[Arika]

On 2007-05-16 23:11, Ryuugu-Rena wrote:
Level one buffs is better then Zero buffs http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif unless the person likes using the NPC type which is 20% - Level 3



You mean the NPC maya or the GH45X?
but if it is the buff item, it is lv 2 which is 15%

[Garanz-Baranz]

This is solid confimation right?

[Niloklives]

uh...you guys...multiplication has no set rules for order. this means that 3 x 6 x 2 is the same as 6 x 2 x 3 is the same as 2 x 3 x 6. so it doesn't matter what order the bonues are applies in as long as the addition is handled first. but whatever. as longas you know why elemental bonuses are important.

I should also point out that these bonuses are applied as such: weapons only get the appropriate bonus against the opposing element. this means your 30% fire weapons will only get that 30% bonus when used against ice. the bonus is not applied to unrelated elements. furthermore using a weapon that is the same element as the monster actually reduces the damage you do. so that same fire weapon when used against a fire enemy will actually end up 30% weaker in the final calculations. so a base of 1000atp wil become 700.

In regards to armor the defensive bonus is applied only when the armor is the same element as the source of the damage. meaning while a delsaban will less damage to you whil you wear dark armor. A gaozoran's foie will do normal damage. and also, like weapons the elemental bonus can result in negative effects when against the wrong enemy. wearing the same dark armor vs a golmoro will make the golmoro do more damage to you than if you wore non elemental armor. this is why all you fans of sori senbas are dying so quickly against onmagoug and de ragan and such.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-05-17 01:40 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

bah, you spoil all my fun Nilok. I wanted one of them to figure it out...

[Mio]

It seems there's an hidden 7% more in each elemetnal weapon/armor. So a 50% Weapon would increase the damage by 57%

[Soukosa]

Enemies have a 5% elemental mod that adds onto the main percent. It's not 7%. In layman's terms, the enemy has a weapon and armor with 5% to its element (not applicable to neutral element enemies of course).

And yes, the elemental mod does apply to the full stat or rather it applies to total damage you would do if elements weren't in effect. It'll essentially increase or decrease the damage by that mod plus the 5% that enemies have in their elemental mod. I have tested elemental damage with techs as well, so I know that's how it works.

[A2K]

On 2007-05-17 02:56, Sounomi wrote:
Enemies have a 5% elemental mod that adds onto the main percent. It's not 7%. In layman's terms, the enemy has a weapon and armor with 5% to its element (not applicable to neutral element enemies of course).

And yes, the elemental mod does apply to the full stat or rather it applies to total damage you would do if elements weren't in effect. It'll essentially increase or decrease the damage by that mod plus the 5% that enemies have in their elemental mod. I have tested elemental damage with techs as well, so I know that's how it works.

Does that increase at all with enemy level? I can almost swear I do a hell of a lot more damage against enemies at higher levels versus those of lower ones--not that it matters, of course, as their HP is scaled accordingly as well, but still.

[Niloklives]

On 2007-05-17 02:07, imfanboy wrote:
bah, you spoil all my fun Nilok. I wanted one of them to figure it out...



Sorry. As much as you were laughing as certain ones jump up and down with excitement, seeing people show such low proficiency in elementary mathmatics left me with a pit in my stomach. so it was your enjoyment or my debilitating unrest.

...in conclusion...xp

On 2007-05-17 03:47, A2K wrote:
Does that increase at all with enemy level? I can almost swear I do a hell of a lot more damage against enemies at higher levels versus those of lower ones--not that it matters, of course, as their HP is scaled accordingly as well, but still.



I dunno maybe you character swings harder out of fear >_>



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-05-17 07:38 ]</font>

[Soukosa]

On 2007-05-17 03:47, A2K wrote:
Does that increase at all with enemy level? I can almost swear I do a hell of a lot more damage against enemies at higher levels versus those of lower ones--not that it matters, of course, as their HP is scaled accordingly as well, but still.

The bible lists this stat as being a consistant 5% through all of the levels it covered. It is possible that they could have changed it and if they did, it'd show up in the damage. If you want, you can record the max damage you do to various enemies of various levels and we can check to see if it is higher than 5%.

[Sekani]

On 2007-05-17 03:47, A2K wrote:

Does that increase at all with enemy level? I can almost swear I do a hell of a lot more damage against enemies at higher levels versus those of lower ones--not that it matters, of course, as their HP is scaled accordingly as well, but still.


You're usually buffed fighting higher level enemies, did you take that into account?

And if I'm understanding correctly how the armor percentages are calculated, this would mean that it's possible for a 25% armor with enough DFP/MST to outperform a "weaker" 50% armor... right?

[Niloklives]

yes, but the differences in stats would have to be pretty extraordinary. either that or we'd be talking about low damage situations. I mean a 25% reduction vs a 50% reduction when facing 100 damage, the 25% with higher def only has to cover 25 points of damage with its defensive score. not hard. but when faced with 400...600 damage, the 50% armor will show its value.

I have a question though. what effect does mega/rainbow have on 50% armor? does it actually boost elemental defense to 58%? or is 50% the absolute cap?

[Zarode]

On 2007-05-18 08:35, NIloklives wrote:
I have a question though. what effect does mega/rainbow have on 50% armor? does it actually boost elemental defense to 58%? or is 50% the absolute cap?



Absolute max is around 60% offline...

So 58% is possible. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif So yes, it should.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-17 03:47, A2K wrote:
Does that increase at all with enemy level? I can almost swear I do a hell of a lot more damage against enemies at higher levels versus those of lower ones--not that it matters, of course, as their HP is scaled accordingly as well, but still.


Remember that element bonuses all multiply in BEFORE enemy DFP takes its bite out of your damage.

If you're hitting for 500 base, 20% element makes it 600... it's nice, but not a huge difference.
Now let's say monster DFP is taking a 300-point bite out of your raw damage. Instead of the numbers above it's 200 vs 300. Your 20% element boost is actually dealing 50% more damage per hit.

[Pheromone]

On 2007-05-16 22:58, Ether wrote:
This won't be 100% accurate, but its a basic interpretation

For weapons, it multiplies your total ATP with weapon. So if you have 600 atp, and a 400 atp saber for 1000, and a 50% weapon, you essentially have 1500 ATP now. No effect on ATA that I know of

With armor, the % is a flat reduction that is applied before DFP. So if enemy would normally hit you for 100 before DFP, with a 50% armor, he'll hit for 50.



http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif No wonder people synth so many weapons with %'s. Without the ATP multiplier, I would rather have non-elemental weapons so they wouldn't be weak against one type.

[imfanboy]

Exactly - the difference between using a neutral weapon and a non-neutral weapon is very extreme.

Mmm... recently, I was using a lot of Graters in Rainbow Beast S2 to level Bogga Danga - got it to 21, sparklies fly and I bounce on my butt!

*ahem* that's neither here nor there. I have an unground 38% ice Graters, and when I'm buffed, on the first 3 hits of Bogga Danga I hit for about 250-300 easy with the ice Graters on fire enemies. With non-element Graters (ground to 5-6) I deal about 150-175.

The higher the enemy level, the more apparent the elemental difference is. The basic formula for weapon damage, which looks like (Base ATP + Weapon ATP) * Photon Art % * Elemental % * Shifta/Jellen % - enemy DFP = damage ATP, doesn't seem to account for this difference.


It is, in very many respects, better to mass-synth 7* melee weapons than 9* weapons looking for good elemental %s because the PP/ATP/ATT difference is insignificant compared to the elemental %. For one thing, you can synth NINE 7* weapons for the price of THREE 9*'s - and how much Kerseline do you have sitting in your bank, along with the various Ebons, that could cut your synthing costs to just that of the board itself?

I have full palattes of 20%+ elemental weapons in A-rank twin daggers, spears, axes, twin sabers, and swords, and am only short 1-2 elemental weapons in single sabers, single daggers, double sabers (which I'm saving for an Earth Sweet Death XD) - and I've never had more than a few million (less than 5 million) at a time, and almost all of those millions were spent on ARMOR synths, not weapon synths. I could do the same on 360 and get results, because my main cost was just the weapon boards.

It's not hard. Heck, you could focus on 6* weapons and get good elemental %s even cheaper than that! I just had so much kerseline and vestaline that I figured, what the hey?

[Niloklives]

depending on the weapon, PP and ATA increase significantly when moving from 7* to 9* an extra 40-60 points of ata can be pretty handy...*looks at axes*

[imfanboy]

I said 'in many respects' not 'all respects,' nilok.

And axes gain only 10 points of ATA when moving to 9*, if you're counting the Photon Art - I should know, I have several high % ank pikors and I don't miss any more often than when I'm using my ank tomhos, or any less which is why I use Marada Maga to lower enemy's evade.

However, the ATP DOES make a difference, at least for axes - the difference between my 20% ice tomho and my 20% ice pikor is something like 150 per hit. Sure, it's the same growth as EVERY other weapon has (about 20% difference from 7* to 9*) but axes are so much STRONGER than other weapons that you can actually notice it. Spears and swords also have this, but not nearly as much.

But for something like Double Sabers, when that 20% growth only adds maybe 20 more damage even with a high % weapon? Or twin daggers, when it means even less?

Also, you get a bigger jump going from 7* to 8* than from 8* to 9*; something like 14% of the gain is from 7 to 8, and only 6% of the gain is from 8 to 9. But those gains are insignificant, because they don't actually act as a multiplier - just an addition to the base weapon atp.

If elemental % is more important than anything else (and pretty clearly it is, considering the pain that a high % weapon can deal out), and getting that high % is more important than ATA or PP (which can be raised with zodiarides or refilled with PP charges), then logically you'll want to synth as many weapons as you can to get as many high %s as you can. Since you can synth nine 7*s for the price of three 9*s, logically you'd want to go for 7*s.

I've got my share of 9*s - as I said, I've got 4 high % ank pikors, a 22% ice heavy twins I picked up for cheap, several 22% dark Muktrands...

Ah! Perfect example! I have 2 22% dark Muktrands, and a 20% dark Mukfet. I use them for Dus Daggas on Adhana Degahna with my fortegunner. With an agtaride, using the Muktrands I deal 410 max damage a hit with Daggas. With the Mukfet, I deal 390.

Heck, seems like that doesn't mean all that much.

[Niloklives]

As a PT, ata isn't as important...I'm thinking more about FFs....but I'm not trying to arge so much as say why some people will readily go to 9* vs 7* the ata on axes will always be low, but I meant that that extra little boost is enought to tip the scales for some. I know the ata progession on twin claws is pretty heafty...but I don't remember off hnd what the numbers are...the item database is available for people who wanna know...

In any case on a lot of weapons, I agree...overall cost when compared to weapon output...the ratio is rather askew...7* vs 9* is not significant enough of a difference to validate dumping large amounts of money into synthesis...but people are much more ready to buy and trade 9* than 7*...so they've become a bit of a comodity...

[panzer_unit]

I think ATA's really important on melee weapons. Just like each move has its own ATP modifier, I'm pretty sure they've got their own ATA modifiers as well... maybe it's just paranoia but it seems like the important crowd control hits are the most likely to whiff.