Fix Barta. Now.

[Egg99]

As a Fortetecher, I love my ice techs. And as a rule, I don't really complain about any techs, other than Diga. Because I hate Diga.

However...

When I first started leveling Barta, a friend told me that "it was pointless", since it never ended up getting SE beyond level 1, and it's tech damage % absolutely sucked. Now at the time, I didn't overly care. It was an ice tech, it looked cool, and all be god damned if I wasn't gonna level it because of those two reasons. However, now that I've grown out of my noob years, and I'm a much higher level, I'm really starting to understand what he was talking about. Sure, Barta pierces. Great. I do understand that because of this, it really shouldn't have a ridiculous tech % and SE level 3. But at the VERY least, I really do think it should get SE 2, and at least an extra 10% tech damage added to it when the expansion comes out. I know they're rebalancing some techs, but the fact that I heard no one complain about this particular tech really surprised me.

The fact remains that in most cases, Barta will never actually hit more than 3 targets. Also, with the retarded speed boost that alot of enemies get in S and S2 missions, you really have to learn how to aim and lead a good shot of Barta to actually hit something. In my opinion, it's significantly harder to use Barta in alot of situations, instead of just spamming Damu and Rabarta, which both have a much wider range and chance of hitting multiple enemies. I really do believe that Barta is severely gimped, and on a side note, so is Zonde since both techs more or less share the same property.

Does anyone else agree? Does anyone else think it needs to be modified/rebalanced? Again, just because the thing pierces, doesn't mean it's godly. As I said, you have much better chance of spamming Rabarta and hitting just as many targets in the time it'd take you to line up enemies and actually "pierce" more than 3 of them.

[-Ryuki-]

Don't know about you, but Barta's low cost and faster cast speed compared to other techs,
makes up for its tri-target damage. I mean, look at HU, On average, they can hit 2 targets.
GiTechs hit up to 5-6, but cost a ton. RaTechs hit up to 3, as well, but are still costly.

[ROB31]

ABSOLUTELY!!!

[chibiLegolas]

Isn't barta similiar to lazer cannons? I think whatever reasoning ST gave lazer cannons SE1 is the same reasoning barta's stuck at SE1 as well.
To change that means they should change the other.

BTW, does barta hit multi area parts on the same enemy? Lazer cannons don't and was wondering if barta was the same or not.

And low cost + fast casting time? Sounds like AT's specialty there.

[-Ryuki-]

I'm actually curious about that, myself. Does anyone know?

[Mystil]

No barta will not hit all targets on Gol Dova for example. Just seperate "entities".

[Anduril]

I really hope Barta does get rebalanced. At least with a SE2. I personally think it would be one of the better basic TECHs if they were to do this.

[ljkkjlcm9]

isn't it a basic, beginning tech with low PP cost and everything? Why does every tech have to be amazing? You silly forces and your demands to be amazing even doing the basic stuff.

THE JACKEL

[JAFO22000]

I would be happy if they upped the tech damage on it. I feel it should at least hit for as much damage as rabarta. Again, it's not often that you can get more than 3 enemies lined up for a shot anyhow....

[Rashiid]

my barta hits 4-5 ppl alot.

[Sychosis]

On 2007-05-24 11:13, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
isn't it a basic, beginning tech with low PP cost and everything? Why does every tech have to be amazing? You silly forces and your demands to be amazing even doing the basic stuff.

THE JACKEL



Foie and Diga are basic, beginning techs, with low PP costs and everything. Those two are amazing. Barta and Zonde are near worthless.

[Eleina]

Barta sucks <<...Rabarta is just so much better (and dambarta when it is needed)

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2007-05-24 11:31, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-05-24 11:13, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
isn't it a basic, beginning tech with low PP cost and everything? Why does every tech have to be amazing? You silly forces and your demands to be amazing even doing the basic stuff.

THE JACKEL



Foie and Diga are basic, beginning techs, with low PP costs and everything. Those two are amazing. Barta and Zonde are near worthless.


well then maybe Foie and Diga should be made LESS powerful, not the other way around...

THE JACKEL

[Ceresa]

Really Barta and Zonde need a nice buff, there's no reason they should be weaker then Megid...

At lvl 30...
Megid 165% + Lvl 3 death
Barta 130% + Lvl 1 Freeze
Zonde 135% + Lvl 1 Shock

"Ultimate PA" or not, that's pretty messed up, afterall instant death alone wipes the floor with lvl 1 status effects, but it has superior damage on top? Come on.

When PSU first launched, and all we had was C~A missions, freeze/shock were pretty powerful and outstripped burn by a fair margin, but burn takes over once you get to S~S2, 'cause well, dead enemies are safe enemies. And the faster they die, the more money everyone makes yay.

At bare minimum I'd like to see their base dmg boosted by 20%, and then gain 2% per lvl from 20~30, bringing them to par with Megid, and making the right element a valid choice in all situations. We're not hunters, we don't need to synth weapons for different elements, there should be zero reason the "wrong" element is the best source of damage (except on dark monsters, release regrants while you're fixing this shit, jesus 6 months since we got new techs)

Really, it's moronic that using Diga on De Ragan/Generic_Lonely_Fire_Enemy is my best source of dmg, there's no reason Diga with no element bonuses should be better then barta with 12% from weapon and 50% from hitting the right element (For reference, Lv30 Barta hits the dragon for 950, Lv30 Diga hits for 1300, of course Diga can also hit the fucking head for 1400, something Barta is absolutely incapable of doing) Oh and that was with Barta on a rod with 80 more TP then the wand I threw Diga on...

Basic shouldn't mean useless, is Rising Strike useless now that Gravity Strike is out? Making them as useful as Foie/Diga is hardly unreasonable. As it is, they're completely outshadowed on single target by Foie/Diga, and on groups by Ra/Damu/Gi.

If I came to PSU as a new player right now, I would never touch Barta/Zonde, they were only useful as long as there were no alternatives released, sad.

[Eleina]

On a side note megid sucks as well <<

[Sychosis]

On 2007-05-24 11:34, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:

On 2007-05-24 11:31, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-05-24 11:13, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
isn't it a basic, beginning tech with low PP cost and everything? Why does every tech have to be amazing? You silly forces and your demands to be amazing even doing the basic stuff.

THE JACKEL



Foie and Diga are basic, beginning techs, with low PP costs and everything. Those two are amazing. Barta and Zonde are near worthless.


well then maybe Foie and Diga should be made LESS powerful, not the other way around...

THE JACKEL



http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif If you think those need a nerf, I think you should look at fortegunners first.

[Eleina]

They don't need to be nerfed << Hunters out damage Forces and in a certain way so do gunners(1400 with yak zagenga)...The only reason ppl think diga and foie need to be nerfed is coz they make big numbers appear << like 2000....and in the meantime poor little hunter are cranking out 800's four time faster you do the math >>

[physic]

uhhh earth fire and dark techs and bullets always have dmg improvement vs lightning ice and light. basically barta is about multi target line hitting with fairly cheap cost and speed. its basically like laser, which many people dont love, but from what ive seen in some situations it rocks.

BTW no spell is multitarget on a single enmie, doing so would make already super FT into unstoppables.

[Yoshiflash]

Barta is one of the very few technics I have not and have no intentions of ever leveling. Suckity suck suck. No purpose whatsoever. None, period. There's no situation where there isn't a better choice.(well, probably not http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif ).

And why should it suck cause it's a starter tech? Anybody ever heard of a rifle? How bout a twin handgun? Or a little PA called Dus Daggas or Renkai?

[Eleina]

Barta zonde and megid lv 30 have only ONE purpose....To show off << nothing else (and ppl end up thinking "wow you got it to level 30.....cgs on wasting your time")

[Yoshiflash]

i wnt my frags back from megid, and my meseta for barta http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Fulgore]

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

...Yet another reason I never leveled that dang tech...(or kept it) ..The way SEGA made it its just worthless compared to dambarta and if you want power go with Rabarta.

[AweOfShe]

Things are only useless when people don't know when or how to use them. A lot of stuff in this game is situational, and up to now, people still don't understand that.

[Eleina]

Barta/zonde/megid are useful every 3 hours in a party and that's once!!! <.< anyways you can forget about barta zonde and just use megid for those cases....but it's a waste of space and time to link megid and use it once though...

[MayLee]

Actually, I need more space so I need to delete Barta and Zonde what I think are not helping me. They are like level 2-5

[Fulgore]

On 2007-05-24 12:29, MayLee wrote:
Actually, I need more space so I need to delete Barta and Zonde what I think are not helping me. They are like level 2-5




Yeah, that's the only reason I have Barta Hate....it was taking up my space and was quite useless...based on stats and effectiveness....After seeing Olgohmon use it fully leveled I was drooling! but SEGA made it weaksause so I decided to not bother....and same with Zonde.....if it weren't for the PA limits I would have kept them both for sure!

[Zorafim]

On 2007-05-24 12:25, AweOfShe wrote:
Things are only useless when people don't know when or how to use them. A lot of stuff in this game is situational, and up to now, people still don't understand that.




You're new to videogames? There's always something that is balanced poorly compared to something else. Off the top of my head, I can think of most of FFV's jobs, and FFXI's dragoons. I can get more if I put effort into it, but the point is that there are things that are useless compared to other things.

[Akaimizu]

This thread reminds me of myself and ground bullets. I still levelled them up in hopes that SEGA will actually make Silence useful over the dominating Confuse.

[Zorafim]

Wait, confuse is useful? When did this happen?

[AweOfShe]

On 2007-05-24 13:06, Zorafim wrote:

On 2007-05-24 12:25, AweOfShe wrote:
Things are only useless when people don't know when or how to use them. A lot of stuff in this game is situational, and up to now, people still don't understand that.




You're new to videogames? There's always something that is balanced poorly compared to something else. Off the top of my head, I can think of most of FFV's jobs, and FFXI's dragoons. I can get more if I put effort into it, but the point is that there are things that are useless compared to other things.



I thought a lot of FF5's jobs were useful... >.>;;

But eh, this is probably just me actually trying to find uses for absolutely everything. Every time someone calls something useless, I always try to defend it in one way or another. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AweOfShe on 2007-05-24 13:14 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

On 2007-05-24 13:11, Zorafim wrote:
Wait, confuse is useful? When did this happen?



When people found out that it completely screws with the monster's ability to cast useful techs (any that would hit players, nor help themselves), while lasting just as long if not longer than silence; plus the added bonus that they may attack each other, too.

[AweOfShe]

On 2007-05-24 13:11, Zorafim wrote:
Wait, confuse is useful? When did this happen?


In HIVE/Seed Awakening S. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

When casting enemies get confused, techs go right through you.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AweOfShe on 2007-05-24 13:16 ]</font>

[Zorafim]

Oh wow, I didn't know it actually did anything. That's rather nice to know.

[Eleina]

On 2007-05-24 13:13, AweOfShe wrote:

I thought a lot of FF5's jobs were useful... >.>;;



o.0 didn't you just take a figther class(after having aquired good white magics) then end of story?
(i remember finishing FF1 with 4 warriors upgraded to knights at the end)

And man this is way offtopic <<

[Akaimizu]

Yep. You see. What SEGA does when monsters are confused for techs, is simply switch whether monsters OR players get targetted and hit by techs. An attack tech can only have a *hit player* OR a *hit monster* flag. Confuse switches that, so players wont get hit.

Also, with experimentation, it seems that affected monsters can't even reliably heal or power themselves up. So in effect, it's everything Silence can be, but better.

[natewifi]

Barts should hit mutliple targets on big enemies, then it would be kinda balanced it wouldnt need to be changed if it could (other than the SE lv, that is just ridiculous, god why does ST have to suck at everything).

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Barta is absolutely fine as it is. In my opinion, it is one of the best, if not the best ice technique (Dumbarta is broken, so it doesn't count ok god).


At high levels, Barta is very fast and very cheap and can hit very many targets at once. People that don't like it are either too lazy to level it or simply don't care about PP efficiency and just want to see LOL BIG NUBARZ.

[fumatanera]

On 2007-05-24 11:31, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-05-24 11:13, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
isn't it a basic, beginning tech with low PP cost and everything? Why does every tech have to be amazing? You silly forces and your demands to be amazing even doing the basic stuff.

THE JACKEL



Foie and Diga are basic, beginning techs, with low PP costs and everything. Those two are amazing. Barta and Zonde are near worthless.



just because it's basic it still gets leveled, so why should the tech itself level but not the SE?

i hit 4-5 enemies with my Zonde as well and still get a decent amount of SE off it, more SE than my gibarta. most of the extra hits i get off my Zonde are by monsters walking in the path of it after i cast, or casting into a group on purpose. i love seeing a shocked mob

[Serephim]

On 2007-05-24 10:34, Egg99 wrote:
As a Fortetecher, I love my ice techs. And as a rule, I don't really complain about any techs, other than Diga. Because I hate Diga.

However...

When I first started leveling Barta, a friend told me that "it was pointless", since it never ended up getting SE beyond level 1, and it's tech damage % absolutely sucked. Now at the time, I didn't overly care. It was an ice tech, it looked cool, and all be god damned if I wasn't gonna level it because of those two reasons. However, now that I've grown out of my noob years, and I'm a much higher level, I'm really starting to understand what he was talking about. Sure, Barta pierces. Great. I do understand that because of this, it really shouldn't have a ridiculous tech % and SE level 3. But at the VERY least, I really do think it should get SE 2, and at least an extra 10% tech damage added to it when the expansion comes out. I know they're rebalancing some techs, but the fact that I heard no one complain about this particular tech really surprised me.

The fact remains that in most cases, Barta will never actually hit more than 3 targets. Also, with the retarded speed boost that alot of enemies get in S and S2 missions, you really have to learn how to aim and lead a good shot of Barta to actually hit something. In my opinion, it's significantly harder to use Barta in alot of situations, instead of just spamming Damu and Rabarta, which both have a much wider range and chance of hitting multiple enemies. I really do believe that Barta is severely gimped, and on a side note, so is Zonde since both techs more or less share the same property.

Does anyone else agree? Does anyone else think it needs to be modified/rebalanced? Again, just because the thing pierces, doesn't mean it's godly. As I said, you have much better chance of spamming Rabarta and hitting just as many targets in the time it'd take you to line up enemies and actually "pierce" more than 3 of them.



Barta PSU fails to barta PSO.

PSO Maxed barta was a BEAST. (and looked awesome.)

They need to make PSO barta have unlimited targets and go ALOT faster.

[SolomonGrundy]

if they took dambarta's flinching away, then barta get's useable again. one thing that barta does that only 1 other tech does is travel up or down geography.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-05-24 14:00, SolomonGrundy wrote:
if they took dambarta's flinching away, then barta get's useable again. one thing that barta does that only 1 other tech does is travel up or down geography.

Yep.


And still, Barta is already useful for the amount of damage it does for the small amount of PP it consumes.

By the way, Forces and Fortechers are, in general, pretty fragile. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather stand back and throw Barta over and over again very quickly form a wand than stand in the middle of a mob of enemies and get nailed while I Dambarta them.

[PMB960]

What most people like to ignore is the fact that if you are hitting 3 enemies per shot you are doing as much if not more damage than a single shot of Diga. Diga can hit for what about 2100+(lightning monster) without crits at 80/10 for a newman fT? Barta can hit around 700+(Fire monsters) and if you hit 3 enemies thats the same amount of damage per shot. Just because its 3 smaller numbers instead of 1 large one doesn't mean its less damage. On top of that it matches Diga if you only hit 3. In Mad Beast you can easily line up a half dozen enemies at once. 6 enemies with 700+ a hit? Thats 4200+ damage for a single shot. That can be even higher too since there is a spawn or two of about 8-10 guys in Mad Beast. Plus you need to include the fact that you can stand at a safe distance and you won't blind teammates to incoming Megid unlike Dambarta.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PMB960 on 2007-05-24 14:21 ]</font>

[Palefire]

On 2007-05-24 10:34, Egg99 wrote:
As a Fortetecher, I love my ice techs. And as a rule, I don't really complain about any techs, other than Diga. Because I hate Diga.

Fanboy was right...damn thing looks like a flaming cat turd. I can't help but not really like it on that alone. (And that SE is worthless...how is it that I can Silence an enemy and it still casts? What's up with that?)


I know they're rebalancing some techs, but the fact that I heard no one complain about this particular tech really surprised me.

Really? I see it complained about constantly. I mean, you want PAs to be balanced, but Barta is just way too gimped for hitting 3-4 enemies at best. Not when you can simply spam Dambarta, which I'd rather not do. (Yeah, it looks cool, but I'll take distance over aesthetics any day. I prefer to hit from afar.)

Truth be told, though, if the SE would just be increased to 2 or upped the element percentage just a wee bit, I'd be fine with it. I managed to level it significantly before I just gave up. (I've only got a couple of levels on it before it reaches 21, but why waste the time & PP?) As it stands now, the only real reason to level it past 20 is to get those big ice crystals on the edges to show off with.

[Scion]

Barta is awesome.

Dambarta 30=130%
Barta 30=130%

It's just as strong, and a lot cheaper. There's also a weird little glitch with dam- techs that cause your pp to be depleted even when you're not using them. That's why I only use dambarta in special situations.

But, if they remove the stagger effect like they did in the beta of AoI, I'd like to see everyone spam that after that happens. You'll get cut off very quickly if you don't have anyone else there to distract the enemies for you. In other words, it's just as effective as damfoie/dammegid/megiverse.

It's like a fighting game. You can't just keep spamming hadoken and expect to win a match that way.

Bleh, no one's probably even gonna listen to me. Oh welps. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Stezan]

I really do not see anything wrong with this tech. I can ,and often does, hit a really good number of enemies. Throw it in the linear regression line path of a group of enemies and more often than not they walk right into it. And if u miss, u just wasted so little PP its not worth complaining about. Plus it casts rather quickly allowing u to move/cast again depeding on the situation.

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-05-24 14:02, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

By the way, Forces and Fortechers are, in general, pretty fragile. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather stand back and throw Barta over and over again very quickly form a wand than stand in the middle of a mob of enemies and get nailed while I Dambarta them.



Really? I'd rather stand back and cast RABARTA; it hits enemies that are abreast in a wider range than barta and, face it, enemies are more likely to be abreast than in a single file line. And enemies are more likely to be moving (fast!) than standing still in a single file line.

Case in point Vandas...WAY easier to use Rabarta on these than barta. Also Ollaka/Koltova/Distova. They tend to run around too much to make Barta useful. The only time it really works well is in a small room with a bunch of Badira coming straight for you....other than that, Rabarta is a much better option.

[Egg99]

On 2007-05-24 13:41, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Barta is absolutely fine as it is. In my opinion, it is one of the best, if not the best ice technique (Dumbarta is broken, so it doesn't count ok god).


At high levels, Barta is very fast and very cheap and can hit very many targets at once. People that don't like it are either too lazy to level it or simply don't care about PP efficiency and just want to see LOL BIG NUBARZ.



Not trying to be rude here, but to me, it really does sound like your logic is in fact fuzzy.

Sure, Barta is cheap, that's about the only thing I can't complain about. However, as I already said, sure it can hit "many targets at once", but in most cases you only ever hit 2 or 3 targets at one time. 4 on the rare occasion if you're lucky. And on top of that, again, the tech % is abysmal, being less than half that of Megid's. And Megid also has SE3!

In my opinion, "ungimping" Barta could easily be done by 10% additional tech damage, SE2, and the ability to hit multiple points on a single target. This to me is essential, as the idea of "piercing" multiple people, but not multiple targets, has never really sat right with me. With the ability to hit multiple targets, but still not retaining nearly as high a damage % as Megid, as well as one level SE lower, Barta could be brought up to par with the other techs while still maintaining its differences and keeping its "situational" characteristics.

Again, just my opinion. But the fact that you think I don't like it because "I'm too lazy to level it and don't care about PP efficiency" is mildly absurd. I don't like it because the god damn thing is gimped for the amount of time I've put into it, and to me, the above suggestions would be a simple way to make it more useable.

[Garnet_Moon]

On 2007-05-24 11:13, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
isn't it a basic, beginning tech with low PP cost and everything?


So is Diga. It costs me 9pp and deals around 2k base and around 3k crits.

[Egg99]

On 2007-05-24 16:32, Garnet_Moon wrote:

On 2007-05-24 11:13, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
isn't it a basic, beginning tech with low PP cost and everything?


So is Diga. It costs me 9pp and deals around 2k base and around 3k crits.



Well said. Just because it's a "basic" (read: released early) tech, doesn't mean that it's somehow inferior and should deal far less damage.

[Soukosa]

Sure Megid has a higher damage mod than Barta but it also eats ALOT more PP per cast and moves slower. Against Dambarta, it doesn't eat half of your PP in one go and several rods per run (sorry, we don't all abuse the haxeta that may exist). Not to mention using Dam techs is rather boring. You just stand there holding down a button and it does everything else for you (til an enemy that's immune to flinching and freeze walks right through it and rapes you because you're a complete sitting duck).

I don't know why people have so much trouble with hitting many targets with Barta. I've found many cases where Barta works beautifully and Rabarta wouldn't have worked as well. It also gains a wider path as it levels up. The actual area in which it'll hit something is wider than it looks from visual looks as well.

[Palefire]

On 2007-05-24 15:59, JAFO22000 wrote:
Really? I'd rather stand back and cast RABARTA; it hits enemies that are abreast in a wider range than barta and, face it, enemies are more likely to be abreast than in a single file line. And enemies are more likely to be moving (fast!) than standing still in a single file line.

Case in point Vandas...WAY easier to use Rabarta on these than barta. Also Ollaka/Koltova/Distova. They tend to run around too much to make Barta useful. The only time it really works well is in a small room with a bunch of Badira coming straight for you....other than that, Rabarta is a much better option.



As I recall, Fanboy wrote something similar in his Fortetecher guide. I have yet to find a reason to argue against it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Palefire on 2007-05-24 18:17 ]</font>

[HFlowen]

What? you've like 20 other great techs. Who cares?

[PMB960]

On 2007-05-24 16:20, Egg99 wrote:
...
Sure, Barta is cheap, that's about the only thing I can't complain about. However, as I already said, sure it can hit "many targets at once", but in most cases you only ever hit 2 or 3 targets at one time. 4 on the rare occasion if you're lucky.
...



Again though if you hit 3 enemies you are doing the same amount of damage as Diga.

700 x 3(Barta damage) = 2100(Diga damage)

There is no difference in hitting 1 enemy for 2100 or hitting 3 for 700 each.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PMB960 on 2007-05-24 19:04 ]</font>

[Africa]

There's only 1 thing wrong with barta to me and that is the one spot hit on creatures, but then i think that several tech types should be able to hit multiple targets on creatures. Although you should be able to hit mote than 2 or 3 creatures with it at a time.It only irks me a little because i thought it would hit multiple target points. Truthfully that would be a wesome but it's not broke.

[Egg99]

On 2007-05-24 19:03, PMB960 wrote:

On 2007-05-24 16:20, Egg99 wrote:
...
Sure, Barta is cheap, that's about the only thing I can't complain about. However, as I already said, sure it can hit "many targets at once", but in most cases you only ever hit 2 or 3 targets at one time. 4 on the rare occasion if you're lucky.
...



Again though if you hit 3 enemies you are doing the same amount of damage as Diga.

700 x 3(Barta damage) = 2100(Diga damage)

There is no difference in hitting 1 enemy for 2100 or hitting 3 for 700 each.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PMB960 on 2007-05-24 19:04 ]</font>


Which, normally, would be fine. But that's assuming you were guaranteed to hit at least three targets every time. And you're not. Which is why it makes more sense to just spam Rabarta and/or Damubarta, since both techs have such a broader range and grant the user a much easier time hitting multiple targets without much "enemy organization" involved.

I do see what you're saying, but we're also talking full-blown-Newman-maxed-level-tech numbers here. (Or at least I assume that, since my Barta as a rule only does around 400-450 damage against fire enemies). The piercing aspect of Barta is so situational, as apposed to the broad "hit everything" aspect of Damu and Rabarta.

Because of this, I still stand by my thought that buffing Barta slightly (and Zonde) would actually bring it up to par with Megid; however it still wouldn't be as good. And nor should it be, since Megid is an Ultimate PA and all.

[PMB960]

The damage aspect of it is fine since both Barta and Dambarta get 130%. The fact is its Dambarta thats overpowered, Bartas power is just fine and people would use it more if Dambarta wasn't such a noob cannon. For the enemies you should be using Barta on it doesn't need more than that. Barta is good for small enemies (Badira) Rabarta/Gibarta is good for Ollaka/Koltova/Distova and Dambarta is good for anything since it is completely broken. If you compared Barta to other "basic" techs it is just fine. It is a trade off though. You use Barta for the potential to out damage all the others. It no different than grinding. You grind a weapon for the posibility that it could become srtonger. Sometimes it won't work out but hey it a risk you take.

[Kent]

On 2007-05-24 19:03, PMB960 wrote:

On 2007-05-24 16:20, Egg99 wrote:
...
Sure, Barta is cheap, that's about the only thing I can't complain about. However, as I already said, sure it can hit "many targets at once", but in most cases you only ever hit 2 or 3 targets at one time. 4 on the rare occasion if you're lucky.
...



Again though if you hit 3 enemies you are doing the same amount of damage as Diga.

700 x 3(Barta damage) = 2100(Diga damage)

There is no difference in hitting 1 enemy for 2100 or hitting 3 for 700 each.


Though I do agree that Barta is actually useful (as is Zonde), and that it's all in using the technique in appropriate situations...

700 damage to three enemies is different from 2100 damage to one enemy, and thusly, is the main reason people are saying Barta/Zonde is worthless/doesn't help them/perplexes their fragile minds/whatever.

I would prefer, however, if there were separate linear-attack and single-target techniques for each element. Would help even things out better.

[gambit04]

What if to fix barta they just increased the size of it? Then you have a better chance at hitting more targets or maybe they could add another barta that comes out per lvl or something I dunno I'm just tossing some ideas out there.

I think something needs to be done about barta. I really like it though and refuse to diga spam I hate diga so much and dambarta b/c no one can see anything if you cast that fucking spell.

[SolomonGrundy]

It's not that barta is bad, it's that it is bad compared to other techs in it's same element (ice), and family (simple tech).

To the poster who said dambarta and barta both have the same damage mod 130%...one is a basic technique, and one in not, basics tend to hit harder. See PSO for details. When you add in the flinch of dambarta, and the more advantageous cone shape vs line, barta loses.

To the poster who said if barta hits 3 targets, then the damage is equal to diga. you are right, possibly more even. But when things line up like that, it is usually becasue they are headed right for you, and in that case,...guess which tech I am using?

by way of costs: 21+barta is 12 per cast, dambarta costs 12 per second...the reason people run out of pp so fast with dambarta is...it hits so fast! if you could cast barta that fast it would drain your pp fast too!.

You cannot, however, compare Megids to barta - megids costs far more, and has a different purpose (not sure what that purpose IS, but...)

Notice how no one will even comment on zonde? that's because no one has it. It's damage is poor,like barta, and there are fewer earth enemies, and fewer still that anyone really fights. There is not even a damzonde to compare it to, which is too bad, as that tech would pwn.

[gambit04]

On 2007-05-24 23:26, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Notice how no one will even comment on zonde? that's because no one has it. It's damage is poor,like barta, and there are fewer earth enemies, and fewer still that anyone really fights. There is not even a damzonde to compare it to, which is too bad, as that tech would pwn.


I will not quote on zonde b/c I have used it very little but I try to work on all of my spells evenly so it is on the list...probably the last thing I will lvl to 11. I think damzonde would be very sweet why can't we get it I mean all the other elements(besides light which has no attack spell yet) got a dam- spell right? wtf is it?

[Libram]

I have 21+ Zonde, and I'm working on getting Barta to 21 as well. I find that Barta works rather well in Crimson Beast and saves me a ton of PP when compared to Damubarta spam. I still have a ton of TECHs to try and build up to 21+, but I'll probably still use the basics once all that is done. As a human FT I'm not throwing that much damage out there anyway, so why not keep mobility and avoid all these mobs trying to punt my character around?

[TheStoicOne]

On 2007-05-24 11:41, Eleina wrote:
On a side note megid sucks as well <<


lol PWNT. I <3 YOO

[A2K]

I suppose it could use a little boost. I do find quite a bit of use for it, though... it really isn't that difficult or time-consuming at all to line up two or three enemies and deal some pretty massive damage for the PP cost.

[Palefire]

On 2007-05-24 23:26, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Notice how no one will even comment on zonde? that's because no one has it. It's damage is poor,like barta, and there are fewer earth enemies, and fewer still that anyone really fights. There is not even a damzonde to compare it to, which is too bad, as that tech would pwn.


I have it. It's...useful, but unfortunately, not in that many situations. It Shocks more than Barta Freezes, but the narrow line makes it especially difficult to hit more than one monster at a time. (I will say this much for Barta: it has a much broader path, so your chances of getting that big group of monsters is much higher) The damage itself is middling -- not all that high, but it's not low, either. (Actually, damage for the whole Lightning class seems to be underwhelming, but against the higher level Earth monsters, it does pretty well)

But Zonde's main downfall isn't the PA itself, rather, the lack of enemies to use it on. So it levels slooooooooowwwwwwly, simply because there just aren't that many chances to actually use it. Levelling Zonde means a lot of time spent on Moatoob on the same few missions ad infinitum.

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-05-25 06:39, Palefire wrote:
I have it. It's...useful, but unfortunately, not in that many situations. It Shocks more than Barta Freezes, but the narrow line makes it especially difficult to hit more than one monster at a time. (I will say this much for Barta: it has a much broader path, so your chances of getting that big group of monsters is much higher) The damage itself is middling -- not all that high, but it's not low, either. (Actually, damage for the whole Lightning class seems to be underwhelming, but against the higher level Earth monsters, it does pretty well)

But Zonde's main downfall isn't the PA itself, rather, the lack of enemies to use it on. So it levels slooooooooowwwwwwly, simply because there just aren't that many chances to actually use it. Levelling Zonde means a lot of time spent on Moatoob on the same few missions ad infinitum.



Grove. Of. Fanatics. Zonde has GREAT use there...you get a lot of small rooms with many robots in them, AND they tend to group up. Some may argue that Gizonde may work better against the larger groups, but you can do roughly the same damage and be further away (and NOT get hit by the robots blowing up upon death!) by using zonde. Razonde works nice there too as does Gizonde but, like EVERYTHING, it's all situational.

I totally agree with your first paragraph. Outside of some Moatoob levels and GoF, lightning techs have little to no use.

[fumatanera]

i agree the barta/zonde are a little weaker than they should be, but i seem to hear a recurring theme in threads lately since the pending AoI improvements were announced. while some of the complaints about techs or stat progressions being broken are valid, but only if you look at it from a solo point of view. this game is a cooperative game. everyone wants to be able to kill everything with with two casts or one combo. "this tech sucks, i can only hit one monster at a time and it doesn;t even die, OMGZWTF!!" your extra 10% damage means nothing when you're playing in a party and 4 or 5 people are wailing on 3 monsters. why do you think they allow NPCs to to come along? granted they are not the best team mates... even off line you don;t go solo

i think it would be sweet if barta became muilt-directional as it leveled, like you have the single line at first and it levels you could get a second one to make a V, then eventually a third, W. yeaaaaaa. and i was sorely disappointed in gizonde....i loved it in PSO, you could tag all sorts shit all over the room

[gambit04]

On 2007-05-25 10:00, fumatanera wrote:
i think it would be sweet if barta became muilt-directional as it leveled, like you have the single line at first and it levels you could get a second one to make a V, then eventually a third, W. yeaaaaaa. and i was sorely disappointed in gizonde....i loved it in PSO, you could tag all sorts shit all over the room





This is what I was trying to say in my post then I could care less if we got a boost in tech or a higher ST lvl. I don't think they will do this though because it is a basic tech <.<; but I would like to see something done with barta/zonde but I will still use barta.

I like barta and always throw it at when I see one monster by itself...then it usually hits atleast one more if not two more. Because when I started doing some S rank missions I noticed that the monsters are soo fast that by the time the spell goes off I see two/three monsters in a line.

[Palefire]

On 2007-05-25 08:15, JAFO22000 wrote:
Grove. Of. Fanatics. Zonde has GREAT use there...you get a lot of small rooms with many robots in them, AND they tend to group up. Some may argue that Gizonde may work better against the larger groups, but you can do roughly the same damage and be further away (and NOT get hit by the robots blowing up upon death!) by using zonde. Razonde works nice there too as does Gizonde but, like EVERYTHING, it's all situational.

I totally agree with your first paragraph. Outside of some Moatoob levels and GoF, lightning techs have little to no use.



You're right...I totally forgot about GoF. That's another great place to level Zonde. I have it levelled fairly well just from running GoF a few times.


On 2007-05-25 10:00, fumatanera wrote:
i agree the barta/zonde are a little weaker than they should be, but i seem to hear a recurring theme in threads lately since the pending AoI improvements were announced. while some of the complaints about techs or stat progressions being broken are valid, but only if you look at it from a solo point of view. this game is a cooperative game. everyone wants to be able to kill everything with with two casts or one combo. "this tech sucks, i can only hit one monster at a time and it doesn;t even die, OMGZWTF!!" your extra 10% damage means nothing when you're playing in a party and 4 or 5 people are wailing on 3 monsters. why do you think they allow NPCs to to come along? granted they are not the best team mates... even off line you don;t go solo

i think it would be sweet if barta became muilt-directional as it leveled, like you have the single line at first and it levels you could get a second one to make a V, then eventually a third, W. yeaaaaaa. and i was sorely disappointed in gizonde....i loved it in PSO, you could tag all sorts shit all over the room

Speaking for myself, my beef with Barta (other than the trouble of lining up enemies when I'm in a group and the melee classes have scattered them... -_- I'm not blaming Barta for that, though) is the poor SE. You see, I'm mainly support, and I want the Freeze SE not so much for the damage but as support for the melee classes I party with. I'll typically cast an offencive PA at an enemy or group of them once (after a De-Buff when I can) and then focus on Resta/Buff/De-Buff, so I want to make that one shot count. (Which I think was probably the original intention...Forces and Rangers soften them up a bit, the Hunters move in for the kill) But more than damage, I want at least a little better Freeze chance because I'll have to cast Resta a lot less and can keep my eye on Buffs/De-Buffs if I can manage to Freeze at least one enemy.

As it stands, I have to cast Dambarta -- which, in all honesty, I really don't like because it's distracting and I have to get in close for it to hit -- if I want decent success at Freezing. Honestly, I could live with Barta being the way it is if the Freeze chance were just a little better.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Palefire on 2007-05-25 10:29 ]</font>

[fumatanera]

On 2007-05-25 10:27, Palefire wrote:

On 2007-05-25 08:15, JAFO22000 wrote:
Grove. Of. Fanatics. Zonde has GREAT use there...you get a lot of small rooms with many robots in them, AND they tend to group up. Some may argue that Gizonde may work better against the larger groups, but you can do roughly the same damage and be further away (and NOT get hit by the robots blowing up upon death!) by using zonde. Razonde works nice there too as does Gizonde but, like EVERYTHING, it's all situational.

I totally agree with your first paragraph. Outside of some Moatoob levels and GoF, lightning techs have little to no use.



You're right...I totally forgot about GoF. That's another great place to level Zonde. I have it levelled fairly well just from running GoF a few times.


On 2007-05-25 10:00, fumatanera wrote:
i agree the barta/zonde are a little weaker than they should be, but i seem to hear a recurring theme in threads lately since the pending AoI improvements were announced. while some of the complaints about techs or stat progressions being broken are valid, but only if you look at it from a solo point of view. this game is a cooperative game. everyone wants to be able to kill everything with with two casts or one combo. "this tech sucks, i can only hit one monster at a time and it doesn;t even die, OMGZWTF!!" your extra 10% damage means nothing when you're playing in a party and 4 or 5 people are wailing on 3 monsters. why do you think they allow NPCs to to come along? granted they are not the best team mates... even off line you don;t go solo

i think it would be sweet if barta became muilt-directional as it leveled, like you have the single line at first and it levels you could get a second one to make a V, then eventually a third, W. yeaaaaaa. and i was sorely disappointed in gizonde....i loved it in PSO, you could tag all sorts shit all over the room

Speaking for myself, my beef with Barta (other than the trouble of lining up enemies when I'm in a group and the melee classes have scattered them... -_- I'm not blaming Barta for that, though) is the poor SE. You see, I'm mainly support, and I want the Freeze SE not so much for the damage but as support for the melee classes I party with. I'll typically cast an offencive PA at an enemy or group of them once (after a De-Buff when I can) and then focus on Resta/Buff/De-Buff, so I want to make that one shot count. (Which I think was probably the original intention...Forces and Rangers soften them up a bit, the Hunters move in for the kill) But more than damage, I want at least a little better Freeze chance because I'll have to cast Resta a lot less and can keep my eye on Buffs/De-Buffs if I can manage to Freeze at least one enemy.

As it stands, I have to cast Dambarta -- which, in all honesty, I really don't like because it's distracting and I have to get in close for it to hit -- if I want decent success at Freezing. Honestly, I could live with Barta being the way it is if the Freeze chance were just a little better.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Palefire on 2007-05-25 10:29 ]</font>


true. sometimes in parties i give on some techs and just try and tag with a de-duff before the monsters get scattered all over the galaxy. there are some many times that i waste techs, and great oportunities to actually use zonde/barta's pierce only to completely miss everything because all of the monsters are flying around the room. faceboo