Why do people use twin daggers?

[Nobo]

I just can't figure out why everyone likes twin daggers so much they have so little ATP ok Att and ok PP! But they do almost no damage! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_beer.gif

[Dj_SkyEpic]

Their multiple strikes makes up for their damage. So having a high % dagger will give you the edge against most melee weaponry.

[pikachief]

they are the quickest hunter weapons and the photon arts are awesome. the attack does add up with its quickness http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Nobo]

On 2007-07-05 18:47, pikachief wrote:
they are the quickest hunter weapons and the photon arts are awesome. the attack does add up with its quickness http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


Yeah but single daggers have more atp attack just a little bit slower and u can have a second item with them so why wouldn't u just use a single?

[Garnet_Moon]

I use 8* Twin Daggers because I'm a fT, and I look cool using them while people are dying around me.

[BanF]

1. At 7 attacks, they end up doing slightly higher damage than a comparable weapon of any of the other types. My Crea twin sabers will deal five attacks at 130 each (so 650), my Crea twin daggers 110 per (so 770). And then you must factor...

2. Eye candy! My chara looks more kick-arse when spinning and hacking across a mob with the daggers than with a single or twin sword. This goes for standard attacks as well as PAs.

[Nobo]

On 2007-07-05 18:50, BanF wrote:
1. At 7 attacks, they end up doing slightly higher damage than a comparable weapon of any of the other types. My Crea twin sabers will deal five attacks at 130 each (so 650), my Crea twin daggers 110 per (so 770). And then you must factor...

2. Eye candy! My chara looks more kick-arse when spinning and hacking across a mob with the daggers than with a single or twin sword. This goes for standard attacks as well as PAs.


Why singles are better
1. At 8 attacks I do about 300 a piece which totals 2400 with my 9*

2. You can use a second weapon with them

[Mayu]

Renkai owns tornado break and Dus robado -_- ( Go ahead Argue with me lol <.<)

I use them for Renkai and Mobou

The yoyo's are for looks

[Shishi-O]

On 2007-07-05 18:44, Nobo wrote:
I just can't figure out why everyone likes twin daggers so much they have so little ATP ok Att and ok PP! But they do almost no damage! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_beer.gif

hmmn,.... i do probably because my 26% earth twin daggers, is pure comedy to watch as they take 250-350 hit points from multiple hit points( from polvhras'( not sur i got the name right but it decimated those big tank things and vohlfos') in it's vicinity, and my beast ff w/hpc makes it all the more comical.

pure fun, i assure you

p.s.- don't even get me started on my 44% earth nightwalker(double sabers), doing regular combos that hit every hit point the goldova has,killing it too quickly...heh, i've gotten like 3 WTF?s' already.

Hard power charge and the non-pp using nightwalker regular attack, are a sight to behold.

and ultra fun http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shishi-O on 2007-07-05 19:08 ]</font>

[Kion]

The mobou PA kicks ass and it's the best PA combo I've seen for front hitting damage (plus a knock back). Not to mention it just... looks... so... cool.

[pikachief]

On 2007-07-05 18:55, Nobo wrote:

On 2007-07-05 18:50, BanF wrote:
1. At 7 attacks, they end up doing slightly higher damage than a comparable weapon of any of the other types. My Crea twin sabers will deal five attacks at 130 each (so 650), my Crea twin daggers 110 per (so 770). And then you must factor...

2. Eye candy! My chara looks more kick-arse when spinning and hacking across a mob with the daggers than with a single or twin sword. This goes for standard attacks as well as PAs.


Why singles are better
1. At 8 attacks I do about 300 a piece which totals 2400 with my 9*

2. You can use a second weapon with them



same with me but my crossbow does close to 1000 a second so i'd rather use that XD

[beatrixkiddo]

I use Twin Daggers on FF probably 50+% of the time. Weapon's elemental % is applied to TOTAL ATP, therefore the low ATP isn't a problem if you score some Katsunos with killer percents. Renkai is the best area of effect PA for non-soloers, and Moubu and Hishou are both amazing for frontal single/double target damage.

[Weeaboolits]

Speed + Number of hits > Individual hit power

Plus they look cooler. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[BanF]

On 2007-07-05 18:55, Nobo wrote:

On 2007-07-05 18:50, BanF wrote:
1. At 7 attacks, they end up doing slightly higher damage than a comparable weapon of any of the other types. My Crea twin sabers will deal five attacks at 130 each (so 650), my Crea twin daggers 110 per (so 770). And then you must factor...

2. Eye candy! My chara looks more kick-arse when spinning and hacking across a mob with the daggers than with a single or twin sword. This goes for standard attacks as well as PAs.


Why singles are better
1. At 8 attacks I do about 300 a piece which totals 2400 with my 9*

2. You can use a second weapon with them



1. Now you're talking about a specific item, it seems, and not general weapons. I don't know a single weapon type that does 8 attacks (so enlighten me here please if there are).

2. Secondhand weapons are all either range or support. I'll use them if the occasion calls for it, but if I need to deal lots of damage quickly to an opponent in melee, I prefer

[Fure_Rakune]

I happen to have three pair of high percentage Katsunos (50% Dark & Fire, 44% Light) and being a Wartecher, they are one of my main sources of damage.
I love the fire pair I recently synthed, its nice to tear into a mob of Gohmons and distribute the hurt.

[Dragwind]

Quick attacks, quick pa's, more hits = more damage. Just because you can equip something else with a single dagger, you can only use one at a time >.>
That argument doesn't make sense.

[D1ABOLIK]

And they look really cool.The double sabers just look stupid.Sorry to say it people.Nightwalker is freaking ugly.

________
Dodge power wagon history (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Dodge_Power_Wagon)

[pokefiend]

b/c it's easy getting high element %s w/ twin daggers. XDDDDD

[DaRkWoLf30]

Twin daggers multiple hit and speed make them an awesome weapon and make up for lost damage.

[Lamak]

Because they can.

[Davot]

Twin Daggers=Pure Win!

[February]

Same reason Christopher Walken is scared of marsupials... 'cause their fast.

(waits to see if anyone even gets that joke)

[Realmz]

On 2007-07-05 19:46, February wrote:
Same reason Christopher Walken is scared of marsupials... 'cause their fast.

(waits to see if anyone even gets that joke)



that needed some more cowbell

[KamiSori]

i love twin daggers because i find every single PA for them useful and even the regular attack is very effective (mobility FTW). twin daggers are, IMO the best twin melee weapon.

[Ryoki]

On 2007-07-05 18:55, Ryuugu-Rena wrote:
Renkai owns tornado break and Dus robado -_- ( Go ahead Argue with me lol <.<)

I use them for Renkai and Mobou

The yoyo's are for looks




Renkai Buyou-Zan was once my favorite pa. I still love it of course, But none of my katsunos are good enough. Right now, I prefer daggers over T. Daggers, but that is because I have better daggers as of right now.

Daggers are good for soloing, though. That is one upside to them.

I'm not one to shun any weapon, and use any one a fighgunner can.

In the long run, It's all about preference. You do close to the same damage using a double saber that you would with a twin dagger.

My most used pa's:

Gravity Dance: I Like about it: Increasing damage(low, high, very high last hit.) I also like the LACK of knockback, but knockup instead.
Renkai Buyou-Zan: I like about it: Very many hits, Knockback helpful to keep from getting damaged. Was overpowered, still seems overpowered.
Buten Shuren-Zan: (Single Dagger) I like about it: Very mobile, allows you to get behind enemies while hitting them in the process, with knockback at the end. Very defensive pa. good for soloing.
Shunbu Shouren-Zan:(S.D as well) I like about it: extremly low PP use, knock back and knock up. Also a semi defensive pa, also good for soloing.

I don't know why people like certain weapons, but bash others. You really have to try them all to get a feel for their true purpose.

Twin Daggers are damaging and semi-defensive. Good for racking up many hits, but may be lacking on single enemies. Still, they have good PP like their single counterpart. Good for straight out attacks on groups of enemies.

Single Daggers are very defensive, PA wise. They let you slip in between enemies and hit them during it. I find it to be best when paired with a crossbow.

Double Sabers are less damaging then T. Daggers, but offer more targets for even its lone melee attack. Despite tornado dance's use on large enemies, D. Sabers are meant for large groups.

I love em all, to be honest.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ryoki on 2007-07-05 21:42 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ryoki on 2007-07-05 21:43 ]</font>

[KiteWolfwood]

Why do people use Twin daggers? Why do people play as Fortefighters instead of Fighgunners? Why do grown men play as little girls in online games? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? The world may never know.

[Kent]

It's about how much ATP you can put out in a period of time.

If we're specifically talking about Twin Daggers... Let's look at it this way:

Your base ATP is 300

You have Twin Daggers with 100 ATP.

You have a Dagger with 300 ATP.

Twin Daggers hit 7 times in a combo. (300 + 150) * 7 = 3150 ATP put into the combo, total.

Daggers hit 4 times in a combo. (300 + 300) * 4 = 2400 ATP put into the combo.

For terms of damage per hit, yes, Daggers will win, outright. However, since these two weapons both hit one enemy, base, the damage potential per combo of the Twin Daggers is greater, even though the weapons themselves have half as much ATP. Add in percentages to this, and you'll see an even greater difference in total damage output.

Naturally, though, there are advantages to using a Dagger over a Twin Dagger.

For starters, there's the ever-present off-hand, which can hold a ranged weapon... And that's pretty much it (until the expansion). Ranged weapons should never be ignored, as they have their outstanding uses. Being able to have one charging while using a melee weapon, is always a plus.

That aside, the Dagger outperforms the Twin Daggers when used against multiple enemies via the PA.

Buten Shuren-zan hits 2 targets 4 times, then 3 targets 4 times.

Moubu Seiran-zan hits 2 targets 4 times, then 2 targets 3 times.

Looking at things from a Wartecher's perspective, it should be quite apparent which would end up doing more damage to multi-target enemies. That, and I haven't used the third part of Moubu Seiran-zan yet...

But given these, the Twin Daggers outperform the Dagger when used against a single target, but Dagger outperforms Twin Daggers when faced with multiple opponents... And Dagger has the added bonuses of being able to have another weapon equipped at the same time.

So, as you can see, they both have their uses, however, if I had to choose one, it'd still be single Dagger. Then give me a Spear or something...

[MayLee]

Yoyo daggers, FTW

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Because Hishou Jinren-zan is really, really useful.

[jayster]

the single dagger is good but it does the same about of damage per hit as my twin daggers and it's radius is smaller.

You're also the one who says deathmakers aren't good though http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jayster on 2007-07-06 08:16 ]</font>

[Tekershee]

To be honest, I've been stuck using RBZ and find that it utterly destroys everything :/

[chibiLegolas]

A side question then:
So the fast + multiple hits from twin daggers are it's plus. What about crea twin dagger then? I think on average it's -100 atp of it's normal counterparts. So for those who use it regularly, do you find the extra normal combo attack worth the minus hit to atp?
Is it realistic to use in a crowd with it's short range to take advantage of this?

Same question towards crea daggers. They worth it?
I was debating if I should use my last corpernias on dagger types or saber types.

[shenrei]

RBZ wins because:

1) First and second part of RBZ are extremely fast, giving you an easy 12 hits around you (2x3, 3x2), and the damage modifier on the 2nd part is rather high. Most importantly, it does not knock back, saving your party a headache.
2) Third part of RBZ is there whenever you need knockback, and adds another 12 hits. Useful when facing larger mobs with multiple target points.
3) Very easily possible to spam 1st and 2nd parts of RBZ in sequence, keeping the 3rd part at bay until you really need it.
4) The 2nd part of BSZ, despite being 3x4 (12 hits), executes slowly AND knockbacks. If I remember correctly, esle someone correct me if I'm wrong - despite single daggers having higher ATP , the damage modifier on the 2nd part of BSZ still does less damage PER HIT than the 2nd part of RBZ. And let's face it, there aren't many times you'll be surrounded by 3+ target points - and the times that you are, you want to keep the enemies together so you can keep spamming your damage. RBZ accomplishes this, BSZ does not.

[Neith]

Moubu Seiren-zan is too awesome, I use it more than Renkai. It's really difficult to interrupt, even in S2 rank, and deals a lot of hits. Also, for people who hate knockback/up/down, Moubu doesn't until Lv21. Awesome PA.

[Notos]

@ChibiLegolas: Why don't you borrow my crea twin dag and test for yourself? Regular dagger and twin dagger combo pales in comparsion to their PA. Go buy renkai and spam it and you'll see how overpowered it is. Keep in mind it's an offensive PA, not a crowd control PA so expect to take damage.

[Almighty_Envy]

I use daggers because I have 50% ones http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

And because they look cool <_<

[Rashiid]

well Nobo; i hope you learnt something valuable from this.

dont talk bout dem` daggaz.

[Freshellent]

On 2007-07-05 19:46, February wrote:
Same reason Christopher Walken is scared of marsupials... 'cause their fast.

(waits to see if anyone even gets that joke)



Is anyone else voting for him in 08'?

[SolomonGrundy]

though there are eight total hits with a single dagger, which can affects 2 enemies in the first part, then 3 enemies in the second, TWIN daggers has 3 parts, and the combo goes off *fast*. For classes with high ATP, # hits + speed > ATP, since the bulk of damage is coming from your personal ATP, not the weapons.

even weapons like swords, with HUGE atp, can't make up for the number of hits of twin daggers.

You want math? ok, here's math:
1st, lets assume both weapons have equal percents so this can be removed from the calculation.
Cast Figunner 80/10(I could have used Beast fF)

Katsuno sashi: 202 ATP+722ATP = 922ATP
Caliburn: 730 ATP+722ATP = 1452ATP



Renkai Buyou-zan: 16pp, 138% damage mod,
hits 3x2, 2x3, 3x4
Total hits: 24
tornado dance: 16pp, 160% damage mod, hits 3x1, 3x1, 4x1.
Total hits: 10

now let's assume you hit the maximum# of enemies, and are not interrupted.
daggers:
24(hits)x922(ATP)x1.38(damage mod) = 30536
sword:
10 (hits)x1452(ATP)x1.6 (damage mod) = 23232

30536 > 23232.

Only if you ATP was small would the numbers start to favor the sword, but because ATP determines the higher rank weapons you can use, daggers will always be the winner.


...and that's one to grow on

[AweOfShe]

I use Twin Daggers because it's hot, watching a Newman do 300 to 400 a hit, with it's Normal Strikes. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AweOfShe on 2007-07-06 11:31 ]</font>

[Para]

The thing with Moubu and which probably quite a few of you guys noticed... if you use it improperly, sometimes your target gets knocked slightly out of range from Moubu's next combo attack which results in a null... Moubu takes a bit more skill to use overall where as Renkai is easy.

[Nailuj]

The great thing about twin daggers and the AoE from Renkai is that: as a beast fortefighter, harnessing their high attack power with a multiple hit AoE type PA increases the nano-blast gauge at an exponential rate. I know personally if I use twin daggers over a spear, my nano-blast gauge goes up at least three times as fast because I am hitting multiple enemies, multiple times, at about 500-600 damage with a decent % twin dagger.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nailuj on 2007-07-06 11:40 ]</font>

[LS_Aksion]

i use Twin Knives w/ Hishou Jinren-zan [Flying Yo-yo's] with Twin Saber Rising Crush.
Saves time, PP & perfact for saving 15mins by switching to Geico! i wonder if it can play the accordian too?

[Jakosifer]

They're very fast, have near neverending combos (Which means alot of hits), low PP usage (Compared to my other main weapon..Fucking Twin Sabers). Very good in any situation.

Renkai - Use the 1st and 2nd part in a crowd a few times, and then use the full combo and you got a win.

Moubu - My FAVORITE PA in the game. Works perfect on one enemy, or even in a crowd (rotating while you use it) just an overall, perfect move.

Hishou - This completely OWNS large enemies if you know how to hit them with it...oh god I love it, also a nice boss killer. ;D



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jakomay_07 on 2007-07-06 14:22 ]</font>

[Dj_SkyEpic]

On 2007-07-05 22:08, KiteWolfwood wrote:
Why do people use Twin daggers? Why do people play as Fortefighters instead of Fighgunners? Why do grown men play as little girls in online games? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? The world may never know.

I love this post.

[EphekZ]

On 2007-07-06 14:46, Dj_SkyEpic wrote:

On 2007-07-05 22:08, KiteWolfwood wrote:
Why do people use Twin daggers? Why do people play as Fortefighters instead of Fighgunners? Why do grown men play as little girls in online games? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? The world may never know.

I love this post.


I came in here to basically post that, but kite beat me to it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

but uh, yeah people like weapons so they use them. It doesn't hurt you, so why ask?

[Hrith]

On 2007-07-06 11:25, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Katsuno sashi: 202 ATP+722ATP = 922ATP
Caliburn: 730 ATP+722ATP = 1452ATP

Renkai Buyou-zan: 16pp, 138% damage mod,
hits 3x2, 2x3, 3x4
Total hits: 24
tornado break: 16pp, 160% damage mod, hits 3x1, 3x1, 4x1.
Total hits: 10

now let's assume you hit the maximum# of enemies, and are not interrupted.
daggers:
24(hits)x922(ATP)x1.38(damage mod) = 30536
sword:
10 (hits)x1452(ATP)x1.6 (damage mod) = 23232

30536 > 23232.Totally ignoring the HUGE range of Tornado Break and the incredibly ridiculous range of Renkai Buyou-zan, that poor excuse for an AoE PA.
Totally ignoring that Tornado Break executes over twice as fast.

LOL

Renkai Buyou-zan is by far the worst AoE PA, any other is a lot better.


Moubu Seiren-zan and Hishou Jinren-zan are incredibly useful PAs, though, so twin daggers are very useful weapons.

[JOHNIE]

On 2007-07-05 18:44, Nobo wrote:
I just can't figure out why everyone likes twin daggers so much they have so little ATP ok Att and ok PP! But they do almost no damage! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_beer.gif


with all due respect, but im certain that i can outdmg you with myh 44's and 50s anyday, with ultimate i do about 14 to 18 hits, all above 600syou add it up http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gifand than there is renkai bui zan, whichs level your nanoblast or suv in a heart beat, adding more dmg in the end..I dont always use them, but i can asure you that they are not weak..

[Tykwa]

Noone counting ACC?

Twins have high ACC...

So your going to miss out on much less than another weapon but if your swinging an axe that has low ACC your going to miss and say bye to a ton of damage


or somthing....

[Dragwind]

That's another good point. The Acc is pretty high on daggers as well, as it makes sense.

[Mikaga]

The bigger question might be why Sega don't do the "rebalance PAs based on usage" thing they've done in the past.

[Nuclearranger]

Whats to reballance again? Doing that only makes people mad lol

[MrNomad]

On 2007-07-06 18:37, Tykwa wrote:
Noone counting ACC?

Twins have high ACC...

So your going to miss out on much less than another weapon but if your swinging an axe that has low ACC your going to miss and say bye to a ton of damage


or somthing....

Lol at the usual "AXE=TON OF 0's" excuse, like they always miss http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Niloklives]

They DO miss a lot...>_>

[Mayu]

Yeah they do miss alot -_-

[redsnow]

I use them.. because i like them

[RadiantLegend]

Cast fF (with AXE) ftw.

I dont use noob daggers. Im a "forte"fighter for a reason. I do BIG things. *Dies laughing*

[DEM_CIG]

It just depends on your preference... I personaly like to use double sabers and long swords....