Why punish people for synthing A ranks? [Archive]

XDeviousX

Jul 16, 2007, 04:26 PM

On 2007-07-16 14:20, Aralia wrote:
Because the real pros go from B rank straight to S rank. =p http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

No.. seriously.. I can see why...
3 tries
they're the weapons you should wind up using for the longest period of time
The % on 9* melee's are most valued.
And Sega intended for us to use crappier equipment than we should. I.E. Why we're able to grind and make a weapon better than the next tier of weps. We're supposed to use high ground C's when we could use B's, high ground B's when we could use A's, and High ground A's when we could use S's. Their logic is retarded.. but none the less, we're supposed to make what we have better than what we can get. (and in order to make S ranks more useful, they raised the success rate on them and lowered it on A's.. making it harder to surpass the S ranks.)

A retard could synth a C ranked weapon on a retarded PM!!! Also, the point about A Ranks being the gear most people will use for their entire or most of their career would still be true with higher synth rate % since its rare when an S Rank weapon board is found, and it still has a chance to fail... even worse then 9* weapons though is Kubara weapons 6* and up... Trying to synth a good 9* melle weapon with good elemental % can make you go poor quick. Also, why punish gun, rod, and wand users with horrible synt rates? 49% for a gun or Rod, really?

Tekershee

Jul 16, 2007, 04:27 PM

On 2007-07-16 14:01, Zorafim wrote:

Selling 50% Skela on Official Forums.

You don't... want it? I spend two week trying to find it, and fail the synth once I finally solo enough to find the board, and someone who doesn't even want it gets it at 50% ice?

Well I traded my me/quick for it because I wanted an S rank, somehow it came out at 50%.

But I've had my fun with it and I kinda would prefer to sell it before it goes down in value. No-ones offered anything though so :/

XDeviousX

Jul 16, 2007, 04:33 PM

People miss the point, esp my fellow PS2/PC players that have been on near or from the start of PSU (due to the hexta) Making a Pure striking PM isn't cheap, and thinking about everything you need to purchase or spend money finding to make a 9* weapon, 55 on a Pure striking PM is sad, period. I could live with 66%, or even letting the synth% raise slightly with synthing attempts. making it a static 55% on a pure PM is lousy... (At least let it raise for the things you synth most)

Theoderic

Jul 16, 2007, 04:34 PM

I synth Buccaneers looking for 50%s, and I have been synthing them since the beginning of Firebreak. I had 14M then and am down to about 5M now, and I understand what people are saying. I have 2 44%s in different elements, and they make up for the loss I have incurred financially. I would give some money making tips out, but I would only be helping the competition. But I can say that you need a significant amount of resources and time, as well as a bunch of luck to assist in breaking even. Good luck!

Kion

Jul 16, 2007, 04:36 PM

ask a friend who deos have a pure pm to synth it for you. Mostly it sounds like you're in a bad mood because you're on a bad luck streak.

JAFO22000

Jul 16, 2007, 04:45 PM

On 2007-07-16 14:33, XDeviousX wrote:
People miss the point, esp my fellow PS2/PC players that have been on near or from the start of PSU (due to the hexta) Making a Pure striking PM isn't cheap, and thinking about everything you need to purchase or spend money finding to make a 9* weapon, 55 on a Pure striking PM is sad, period. I could live with 66%, or even letting the synth% raise slightly with synthing attempts. making it a static 55% on a pure PM is lousy... (At least let it raise for the things you synth most)

Raising a pure striking PM is not as costly as a pure tech or pure armor PM. That said, most people don't factor that cost into the equation, as it's more of a "start-up" fee of sorts. Just because you didn't make 8 of 9 Buccaneers with high percentages doesn't mean the system is bad. The reason why the high percentage 9*'s are priced so high in player shops is because of the difficulty to make them coupled with the rarity of them. Perhaps you should be content with 7 & 8 * items for now. They are still useful, you know! Sounds like you want a pallette full of 9* weapons now that you have just reached the minimum requirements to use them.

XDeviousX

Jul 16, 2007, 04:46 PM

On 2007-07-16 14:36, Kion wrote:
ask a friend who deos have a pure pm to synth it for you. Mostly it sounds like you're in a bad mood because you're on a bad luck streak.

Actually I'm on a good synthing run despite the fact I was PM bombed...

realizing what I have to spend to restore my 100% strike PM if ST doesn't restore it, along with researching synth-rates of pure PMs on another site just made me realize how much of a hassle it is to synth 9* weapons. Kubara and cstom/(enemy part) weapons are even worse, even the S ranked ones!!!

XDeviousX

Jul 16, 2007, 04:50 PM

On 2007-07-16 14:45, JAFO22000 wrote

Raising a pure striking PM is not as costly as a pure tech or pure armor PM. That said, most people don't factor that cost into the equation, as it's more of a "start-up" fee of sorts. Just because you didn't make 8 of 9 Buccaneers with high percentages doesn't mean the system is bad. The reason why the high percentage 9*'s are priced so high in player shops is because of the difficulty to make them coupled with the rarity of them. Perhaps you should be content with 7 & 8 * items for now. They are still useful, you know! Sounds like you want a pallette full of 9* weapons now that you have just reached the minimum requirements to use them.

I have a full stock of 9* weapons, not the point or the problem...

I've been on PSU near the start of the game. Just because I don't agree with the system doesn't mean I'm "pissy", just think it needs fixed like the other things St has fixed. I thought the death penalty change made the game easier and more unbalanced then fixing synth rates..

edit: Also, 8 out of 9 buccaneers Failed, not 8 out of 9 just had crappy stats. Thats a lot of money gone. I've recovered the cash, and got all the buccaneers I need, but because the synth rate isn't crucial to me right now, doesn't mean I don't think it isn't right, esp for people with Pure Rnage and Tech PMs.

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-16 14:54 ]

Deus-Irae

Jul 16, 2007, 05:00 PM

On 2007-07-16 14:02, JAFO22000 wrote:
Two-headed Ragnus board is a bit harder to obtain than a Buccaneer board. Also, the Buccaneer board has three synth chances, while the Ragnus board has only one. The higher synth rate is really your "reward" for finding the board. I mean, wouldn't it suck to get one of these boards only to find out that the synth rate was 37% and you only get one shot?

no, the board is the reward for putting in the hours hunting it (unless you get stupid lucky).

the high % on the board is the trade off for only being able to attempt the synth once.

im ok with the % on A ranks actually. i get a decent amount to synth succesfully. my gripe is trying to get a decent elemental photon % to come up. ive synthed hundreds of weps from C to A rank and have only had something come out over 20% a handfull of times, and never synthed anything over 28-30%.

thats painful.

[ This Message was edited by: Deus-Irae on 2007-07-16 15:00 ]

HaydenX

Jul 16, 2007, 05:16 PM

My pm is striking lvl 5...so I won't be synthing a ranks for a while (unless I want to spend lots of money). The only weapons I've synthed so far are an al-daggac 24% ice, 2 fluorescent bulbs fire 12%, one fluorescent bulb 14% ice and 1 fluorescent bulb 44% lightning (which I sold grinded twice for 120000 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif).

Based upon the percentages listed and the numbers synthed, I'm pretty sure that the listed percentages are not an exact number (that 60% is really more like 50%) except for 100%. Another thing is that 3* luck has brought me nothing personally. Are you expecting more because of the 3* luck?

XDeviousX

Jul 16, 2007, 05:30 PM

On 2007-07-16 15:16, HaydenX wrote:
My pm is striking lvl 5...so I won't be synthing a ranks for a while (unless I want to spend lots of money). The only weapons I've synthed so far are an al-daggac 24% ice, 2 fluorescent bulbs fire 12%, one fluorescent bulb 14% ice and 1 fluorescent bulb 44% lightning (which I sold grinded twice for 120000 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif).

Based upon the percentages listed and the numbers synthed, I'm pretty sure that the listed percentages are not an exact number (that 60% is really more like 50%) except for 100%. Another thing is that 3* luck has brought me nothing personally. Are you expecting more because of the 3* luck?

Not to be rude, but if this is a reply to me, have you read my posts because if you are replying to me you need to read carefully before you reply...

SolomonGrundy

Jul 16, 2007, 05:43 PM

here's my beef with the synthing system: it is cheaper to sell the board and mats, then it is to try and synth, and fail two, or all three of a 7-9* board.

low % 7-9* weapons don't even sell for the price of the board on the 360 servers. So when I go to synth, say, asami-zahsi's, unless I get a high percent (28+%), or beat the odds, I would have been better off selling the new ebon, kerseline, etc.

If you have a bad run of luck (like when I went 3/9 on 7* synths), you lose so much meseta, you feel like giving up on the game.

Armors are even worse. Why anyone builds a 100 armor PM is beyond me....and I have one.

[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-07-16 16:47 ]

Reipard

Jul 16, 2007, 06:48 PM

Synthing has far too many sunk costs to be profitable. Generally, I only synth weapons I need now. The frustration from the low success % and the amount of cash that goes into it just does not factor out a reasonable enough reward to bother.

BloodDragoon

Jul 16, 2007, 07:30 PM

I never really had problems synthing striking weapons on my PS2 acct. My PM wasn't 100% pure either. (It had 5 tech on it to make it special... >.>)

But then I mostly synthed weapons seeking upgrades for my Fortefighter then sold off whatever I didn't plan on using. Average on A ranks I'd usually get 2 out of 3 synths, Anything I didn't want or need went into my shop below NPC price unless it had a element percentage over 35%, those above 35% went at 125% of NPC price. I've found the element %'s be be totally random much like the photon affinity or whatever it was called in PSO when you found a weapon out in a field area.

Did it cost alot to get my supply of 50% element A ranks? Yes, but overall with the sales it cost a hell of alot less than looking for and buying them all from a player shop.

I think the real issue is people only see or care how the system effects them personally, They don't stop to think what their ideal system or wishes would do to the game's economy due to the player shop system. If A ranks were easy to make we'd be totally flooded with them, There would be pretty much not point at all to even feed a PM for new players because everything they need or want that was purchasable from an NPC would be sold in a player shop for probably about 10% of the NPC price. Sega obviously didn't want this scenario, hence the current synth system and the weapon breaking chances with grinding.

DRO

Jul 16, 2007, 07:36 PM

I LOOK AT EVERY SYNTH LIKE 50-50

BloodDragoon

Jul 16, 2007, 07:55 PM

On 2007-07-16 17:36, DRO wrote:
I LOOK AT EVERY SYNTH LIKE 50-50

Nah, think of it as rolling a 100 sided die.

So say, said item has a 70% success chance, that would essentially mean if you roll the die and it lands on 1-70 it's successful. But if it lands on 71-100 it breaks. Well dice are random by nature, A 10 sided die has a 10% chance of rolling a 10, but that doesn't mean if you roll it 100 times you'll get 10, 10 times.

Sekani

Jul 16, 2007, 08:06 PM

Weapon synths are no big deal. At least on a 9-star board, you can just buy more materials from the shop if it fails. It's a money sink; it's pretty common for high-level players to have close to two million meseta, and they don't really have anything else to spend it on. S-rank boards definitely deserve the higher success rate since they're a one-shot deal on top of the boards themselves being quite uncommon.

Armor synthing on the other hand... the low success rates combined with the enormous expense makes for a retarded combination. This does need to be fixed.

HaydenX

Jul 16, 2007, 09:46 PM

I only posted my question about photon fortune because you didn't actually make reference as to when you were attempting your syntheses. Also, I have seen people having conversations in the game about how 3* luck isn't worth $-h-1-7.

P.S. if you were referring to your entire history of posts and you have posted some theories, i wouldn't really know...I only have 14 posts as of this posting. I've been playing PSU since February, but My char is only lvl 33.

XDeviousX

Jul 17, 2007, 12:27 AM

On 2007-07-16 19:46, HaydenX wrote:
I only posted my question about photon fortune because you didn't actually make reference as to when you were attempting your syntheses. Also, I have seen people having conversations in the game about how 3* luck isn't worth $-h-1-7.

P.S. if you were referring to your entire history of posts and you have posted some theories, i wouldn't really know...I only have 14 posts as of this posting. I've been playing PSU since February, but My char is only lvl 33.

I never mentioned luck as I know it has no bearing, and I did say I had a RECENT run of good luck synthing actually. This isn't a post abot how synthing effects me, but how badly the system is flawed. Scapedolls being a money sink was a better idea to me rather then synthing. If it were up to me I'd start all synth rates low:

C Ranks on 100% Pure 85
B Ranks on 100% Pure 70
A Ranks on 100% Pure 55
S Ranks on 100% Pure 70

These stats would not be "static" but represent the % chance if you have never attempted a synth before. To intice synthing, the more you synth a type of weapon: melee, ranged, or force, the more is added to the synthing % of each weapon type for every successful synth. That way people that synth more are rewarded fopr their hard work, money, and effort. I would also suggest that certain items needed to synth A and S ranked weapons should be rewards for getting an S on certain A, S, and S2 team missions, as well as randomly found. If you need a money sink, raise the price of scape dolls and make moon atomizers and moon atomizer X's only obtainable by finding them.

Considering the factors of raising a PM in a "Fair" economy or as a "Starting" player, buying the board, buying the parts or paying for supplies to go through missions to find the parts, and then trying recoup the losses for failed synths/failed grinding, the grind/synthing system in PSU is just punishment for players that want to have something to show for the time and effort they spend. You have access to a lot of stuff but there are many ways (and besides hacking...) that it can be taken away from you. People go poor a lot from a bad synthing streak or because they wanted to grind their weapon because they don't have time/money/levels to hunt for an S ranked weapon...

Like I said before, I'm stocked up with all the A Ranks I need, and I have an ok amount of mesta, but I still think the synthing system needs fixed....

BloodDragoon

Jul 17, 2007, 12:37 AM

Crafting isn't supposed to be easy and cheap. It's no different here than the crafting system in other MMO's. The amount of time, effort, and money investment to get a set of 4 pure lv 100 PM's is a joke compared to something like 100 goldsmithing and all subcrafts at 60 for 1 character on FFXI.

XDeviousX

Jul 17, 2007, 12:45 AM

On 2007-07-16 22:37, BloodDragoon wrote:
Crafting isn't supposed to be easy and cheap. It's no different here than the crafting system in other MMO's. The amount of time, effort, and money investment to get a set of 4 pure lv 100 PM's is a joke compared to something like 100 goldsmithing and all subcrafts at 60 for 1 character on FFXI.

I agree to a point, but in FFXI you can rais in your skill and advance in your guilds. You can raise your PM, but after it reaches 100, the synth stats stay static no mattar how often or little you synth... in a Game where all you PA's, BA's, and Techs raise with use and success it makes no sense to leave synth rates static...

Once you build your crafting in FFXI you have a sense of taking control of actually building things, in PSU its a crap shoot even after you level your PM. Your success % should raise and you should statr to get guaranteed elemental %'s as well after synthing high numbers of melee weapons... Thats just what I'd like though,although I think the system is flawed, and even if other games are worse/harder/more annoying, doesn't mean that this game doesn't have problems that people want fixed or adapted...

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-16 22:47 ]

Zael

Jul 17, 2007, 01:06 AM

By choosing to go with the success rates and starting the synths, you're only punishing yourself when you fail...

Shishi-O

Jul 17, 2007, 04:01 AM

On 2007-07-16 14:45, JAFO22000 wrote:

On 2007-07-16 14:33, XDeviousX wrote:
People miss the point, esp my fellow PS2/PC players that have been on near or from the start of PSU (due to the hexta) Making a Pure striking PM isn't cheap, and thinking about everything you need to purchase or spend money finding to make a 9* weapon, 55 on a Pure striking PM is sad, period. I could live with 66%, or even letting the synth% raise slightly with synthing attempts. making it a static 55% on a pure PM is lousy... (At least let it raise for the things you synth most)

Raising a pure striking PM is not as costly as a pure tech or pure armor PM. That said, most people don't factor that cost into the equation, as it's more of a "start-up" fee of sorts. Just because you didn't make 8 of 9 Buccaneers with high percentages doesn't mean the system is bad. The reason why the high percentage 9*'s are priced so high in player shops is because of the difficulty to make them coupled with the rarity of them. Perhaps you should be content with 7 & 8 * items for now. They are still useful, you know! Sounds like you want a pallette full of 9* weapons now that you have just reached the minimum requirements to use them.

they all cost the same....http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Zorafim

Jul 17, 2007, 04:04 AM

On 2007-07-17 02:01, Shishi-O wrote:
they all cost the same....http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

50k =/= 5 mil.

SaiSpagS

Jul 17, 2007, 04:35 AM

I had horrible luck grinding 16 Cubo Dungas and turning them into 2 Cubo Dungas a week a go but then I set some Phantoms to synth last night and I'm 5/5 so far, so that's pretty lucky...

Basically, it's all random, if you ignore all the percents and just think 'meh 50/50' you'll probably be better off.

Shishi-O

Jul 17, 2007, 06:01 AM

On 2007-07-17 02:04, Zorafim wrote:

On 2007-07-17 02:01, Shishi-O wrote:
they all cost the same....http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

50k =/= 5 mil.

...what costs that much??

5mil i mean

...i may be using an overlooked method

[ This Message was edited by: Shishi-O on 2007-07-17 04:03 ]

Niloklives

Jul 17, 2007, 07:59 AM

ranged PMs are argunably the cheapest to make, with armor being the most expensive. ranged you can buy 100 or 500 meseta traps and raise its stats by ~3 per star iirc. where as the cheapest method with melee and tech would be 1* weapons which are clearly more expensive to work with than 100 meseta traps. armor, well just look at the lowest armor/clothes prices.

even for speed raising your PM, bullet disks are easier on the wallet...and cast swimwear is likely your best best ofr armor raising your Armor by 18 points for 5k each.

PERSONALLY I think the synth system in this game is a crock. it feels like the more time you invest in it, the more you feel little pieces of you die. I can't express enough how many weapons and armor I've tried to synth since I got on here and while some people have stockpiles of 50% weapons and armor, some of us don't have any. I've been fortunate enough to get a few high % weapons, but being on PS2 I've easily invested several hundred million meseta into synthing, all my PMs are pure. despite this I have maybe 4 50% weapons, a few 44s and like 2 38s. no high % armor and I invest 10s of millions in armor synthing every time I try.

Worse yet I finally get my hands on a S rank board...it wasn't even intended for me. i wanted to give the weapon (completed) to a friend who rarely has time to play. I even raised a new tech PM specifically for it. pure tech. I put the weapon in, wait 24 hours and pull out an agitaride.

in 3000 hours of game play I have never found an S rank board. I've seen maybe 4 drop. that means I know people who possess more s rank weapons than I have seen boards for them. I say this to illustrate the poor drop rates and relate that to the success rates. 3000 hours of game play hundreds of millions of meseta invested, one board finally synthed and a 150 meseta expendable item to show for it. and we pay real money for this...

the synth rates either need to be fixed, or the drop rates need to. I mean it should not takes a person 3 or 4 months to find a single rare board(which I have not yet done) just to have it fail.

and I don't care how many tries you get or how easy it is to obtain the board. if you invest time money and energy into raising a pure PM to lvl100...there needs to be a better reward for that . as it stands, every 5 levels increases success rate by about 1 for A ranks. now as you're raising your PM I can understand that...but as a pure melee PM...a specialist with a synth trend. their failure rate at least with their specialized weapon types should be next to 0. otherwise the difference between my finished pure striking and someone's 50/50 strike/ranged is only 10% on any given A rank synth. lets review that:

I have a GH-410 pure strike. I want to make a buccaneer. the success rate is 55%. ok fine...that seems pretty low...but we'll go with that. my friend ALSO has a GH-410 he decided to raise it as a 50/50 strike/ranged. HE decided to make a buccaneer too. his success rate is 45%. so we're BOTH hovering around 50% and mine is geared ONLY toward striking. more screwed up still? he also has only a slightly lower chance of success synthing a python than I do with my GH-430. his one PM is only slightly the lesser of TWO pures. I could raise my PM to 80 and have a 51% chance of success as opposed to 55 if I bothered to raise it 20 more levels. a 4% difference isn't even worth mentioning as it's within standard deviation of probability ANYWAY..

that sounds to me like a pretty serious design flaw.

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-07-17 06:43 ]

Deus-Irae

Jul 17, 2007, 08:13 AM

some very good points NIloklives.

i just attempted 3 Muktrands on a pure striking PM (ive synthed a crapload of these before), 2 failed and one came out at 14%. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif this is hardly worth the money and time invested in raiding the PM and buying all of the ingredients. i would be better off buying a low % spear from a player shop.

people who have multiple 50% weapons really have no idea how lucky they are to get them. i have spent countless millions synthing strike weapons and havent gotten one % even approaching 50 (or 30% for that matter).

frustrating.

Rashiid

Jul 17, 2007, 09:15 AM

i say all S ranks should drop raw.

and hunter ones should drop w/ random elements at random %'s. just fck S [B]s in general.

DLShAdOw

Jul 17, 2007, 09:41 AM

hehe, right now I'm synthing a deathdacec with a 23% chance of success on a pm that is under lvl 20....
>_> I hope it works http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

panzer_unit

Jul 17, 2007, 09:49 AM

Maybe you're just not playing the (synthing) game right?

I've got a bunch of boards for 8* and 9* weapons. Whenever I've got enough materials... or close to it... for one of them I start cooking. It's virtually free and I get a new weapon about half the time. Before that I was all decked out in decent-grinds 6* gear because B-rank materials were common. It was decently effective and didn't break the bank either.

IRL it's moronic to throw away all your money on slim chances like lottery tickets, blackjack tables, etc because they MIGHT win and pay off the whole misadventure. Same applies to PSU. You have virtually 0 chance of getting a 50% 9* weapon so you should only take a shot at it when the attempt costs you next to nothing.

JAFO22000

Jul 17, 2007, 10:33 AM

Spoiled.

That's all I have to say. The one's complaining are the PC/PS2 players who can't achieve a pallette full of 50% 9*'s and a full complement of 50% 9* armor boards. After their 100's of milliions have dissapeared with "only" 5 or 6 weapons above 30%, they see other's pallettes and get jealous and frustrated that they can't have the same.

Us po' people on the 360 have come to respect the system and take what it gives. Making a 16% 9* weapon is a bit of a bummer, but a success to us. When you don't have money to throw away, something is better than nothing.

Niko, in your example about your 100% striking PM vs. your friends 50/50 PM, nobody told you that a pure PM was going to magically start making every weapon in sight, nor that it would be 50% better than your friends hybrid PM. Unless you were uninformed, you made this PM with the understanding that you'd only get a few extra percentage points anyway, but you never know when those can come in handy.

NOT a bash on the PC/PS2 population, just an observation. When there is plenty of food to go around, people start complaining that the fois gras is too salty or the Beef Wellington was a bit overdone. When you don't have much food, people will respect that PBJ sandwich they get, even if the bread is a little old and they prefer creamy over crunchy, but don't complain!; at least you have something to eat.

Akaimizu

Jul 17, 2007, 10:39 AM

Well, I actually think it's a complaint everybody has been saying. Most likely from PSO players who were used to just finding items, not having to deal with synth percentages and the like. Yes, it's one hitch in the reward system, in comparison. Perhaps it would make a little sense to make certain rares drop more frequently if they're going to have such a low synth percentage anyway and that it's kept from low levels by the fact that a monster needs to be a certain level to drop it. Still, the best thing anybody can do about it, is voice it to Sega then try to deal with it how it is with hopes better things are to come. Or if it is too much for you right now, to wait until the updates, you like, come in. All in the life of various different online RPGs, you stick with the ones you agree with, the most. They all have certain things one may have issues with.

[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-07-17 08:42 ]

XDeviousX

Jul 17, 2007, 12:21 PM

I like how people try to tell me and others why we think things are wrong instead of reading what is written... I for one never complained about weapon% once finished, or that we should all just find them finished. My point is and has been that the synthing system is flawed, badly. At the very worst a failed synth attempt should result in a lower star weapon with a lower ability to be grinded, instead of being a 200k monomate! Seriously, I wouldn't even mind so much if you could at least recover 25-50% of your materials for a failed weapon synth, then at least your not in the hole 50-300k (or more) and have a dimate for your troubles..

I am not asking to be given anything I didn't earn, they can keep or even lower the % chances to synth weapons as long as I know I could build up those stats with time and effort. At least you people should agree that letting a failed synth become 1* lower and 1-3 grinds broken/taken/lower, and or nuetral, is a better punishment then the galaxies most expensive 150hp healing item!!!

Reipard

Jul 17, 2007, 12:30 PM

I think you do have a point, Devious. Synthing, like grinding, needs to be made less punishing for playing with the system. It doesn't matter how hard a similar system is elsewhere, what matters is that it sucks here, in PSU, right now.

In my opinion, synthing has little utility outside of equipment-making and costs too much to make the reward worthwhile. It SOUNDS great to say you can synth certain items instead of buy them but the money you save is negligible compared to the time and money you put in buying/farming the materials.

I don't have any ideas necessarily for how it can be fixed, but I think less overall reliance on it and more emphasis on what synthing can do for the player as opposed to using it as an obstacle to get your rare weapons would be a good start in my opinion.

XenithFlare

Jul 17, 2007, 12:40 PM

On 2007-07-17 08:33, JAFO22000 wrote:
Spoiled.

That's all I have to say. The one's complaining are the PC/PS2 players who can't achieve a pallette full of 50% 9*'s and a full complement of 50% 9* armor boards. After their 100's of milliions have dissapeared with "only" 5 or 6 weapons above 30%, they see other's pallettes and get jealous and frustrated that they can't have the same.

Us po' people on the 360 have come to respect the system and take what it gives. Making a 16% 9* weapon is a bit of a bummer, but a success to us. When you don't have money to throw away, something is better than nothing.

Niko, in your example about your 100% striking PM vs. your friends 50/50 PM, nobody told you that a pure PM was going to magically start making every weapon in sight, nor that it would be 50% better than your friends hybrid PM. Unless you were uninformed, you made this PM with the understanding that you'd only get a few extra percentage points anyway, but you never know when those can come in handy.

NOT a bash on the PC/PS2 population, just an observation. When there is plenty of food to go around, people start complaining that the fois gras is too salty or the Beef Wellington was a bit overdone. When you don't have much food, people will respect that PBJ sandwich they get, even if the bread is a little old and they prefer creamy over crunchy, but don't complain!; at least you have something to eat.

Oh, come off it; you were blatantly bashing the PC/PS2 community with that post. You seem to have had it pent up, since no one here ever said they were mad with the %s that their weapons came out with. We were all mad at the low success rate, which I would assume to be just as frustrating on the 360 side of things.

I know when I synth, just the fact that the shit worked is enough for me; the hell with percentages. If it's low, I either use it, sell it, or grind it (for using or selling). Not much for you "we-did-all-this-through-harder-work-than-you" elite 360 people to complain about...

Shishi-O

Jul 17, 2007, 12:54 PM

....there is something we are not looking at when it comes to grinding.

something obvious and assumed wrong.

panzer_unit

Jul 17, 2007, 12:56 PM

On 2007-07-17 10:21, XDeviousX wrote:
My point is and has been that the synthing system is flawed, badly. At the very worst a failed synth attempt should result in a lower star weapon with a lower ability to be grinded, instead of being a 200k monomate! Seriously, I wouldn't even mind so much if you could at least recover 25-50% of your materials for a failed weapon synth, then at least your not in the hole 50-300k (or more) and have a dimate for your troubles..

I addressed what you're talking about directly. Those 9* synths cost like 50k each (1/3 the board) if you only roll the dice after foraging for all the materials in S2 missions. Blowing millions of meseta on impatience to get a palette of weapons NOW... that's your money and your choice.

JAFO22000

Jul 17, 2007, 01:25 PM

See, it's different on different servers. I usually don't have to buy my materials to synth things because I find a lot of them in my daily missions. I buy a 9* board and one of three makes, I'm only "out" the cost of a board. It seems to me that you are synthing for profit and the system isn't working for you, therefore it sucks. You want something instead of nothing for your "hard earned" money. If you have to buy the board AND all of the synth items, then you are synthing too much, again a condition really only prevalent on the PC/PS2 servers.

If one did gain a percent bonus for synths completed, how many people do you suppose would just go out and by 2* boards to synth the crap out of them until their percentage maxxed out? Hell, they'd even be able to synth 2* wands until their Tech percentage maxxed out, 2* handguns until their Range percentage maxxed out and 2* armors until their Armor maxxed out. Therefore your 100% pure Striking PM would have the BEST OF ALL chance to make striking weapons, and a decent chance at making the other three. You want this change PLUS an 8* weapon for a "failure"??

I mean, there has to be a risk in the synth process. Trying to synth for profit is asking for failure. I only purchase boards that my friends or I would like weapons made from. Any board that is found from which nobody wants a weapon is either sold outright or synthed then sold for profit. Buying boards and mats in an attempt to make money is just a bad business plan.

If you have all of the 9* weapons you need, I can only assume that you are now synthing for profit and it is not working out thus you want the whole process changed to fit your needs. If my assumption is incorrect, then what is your issue? You feel you should have a better chance of making these weapons as you synth more and more of them, but why? To achieve a 50% all element weapon pallette as soon as humanly possible? I don't understand why you're still synthing Buccaneers if you state you already have all of the 9* weapons you need.

SolomonGrundy

Jul 17, 2007, 01:41 PM

Reipard

Jul 17, 2007, 04:23 PM

JAFO:

And why shouldn't we be able to synth for profit? Why does it have to be so punishing that attempting to synth for profit asks for failure? Synthing is almost useless; there is absolutely no benefit to synthing the weapon yourself that isn't eclipsed by the massive sunk costs you incurred if your luck was bad.

The only reason we put up with it is because there is no alternative for the things we want. I guaruntee that if completed S rank weapons were to drop somewhere alongside boards, you would see about 50% more people settling for the completed weapon than attempting to synth the board.

Synthesis should be a system that works for the player, not constantly against them. Nobody is saying that it should be absurdly easy to gain 50% S ranks, but the system should reward you for going to the effort to accomodate it, not punish you again and again.

I don't even synth for weapons I genuinely want anymore. I would much rather foot the cost for a weapon in a shop instead. It's less frustrating and more worth my time.

Think what you will.

XDeviousX

Jul 17, 2007, 04:24 PM

On 2007-07-17 10:56, panzer_unit wrote

I addressed what you're talking about directly. Those 9* synths cost like 50k each (1/3 the board) if you only roll the dice after foraging for all the materials in S2 missions. Blowing millions of meseta on impatience to get a palette of weapons NOW... that's your money and your choice.

Are you serious? Most people needing to synth A ranked weapons cannot randomly run S2 missions, and if you can run them and GAIN money, you are past the point of synthing A ranks for need and into the field of synthing them casually for element% and or for sale.... After you pay for a 9* board, (165K btw) and then pay for the parts, or pay the price of grinding missions to get the material, then you spend time and effort for the synthing and you get 3 monomates, there is something very wrong with that! New players on PS2/PC and people in general on the 360 don't have millions to waist on synthing weapons/armor. I won't even go into how bad armor is, and what is with giving decor a failing rate? Room decor should just synth...

If anyone can defend the synthing system that is currently in place and like the new death penalty instituted then I've lost hope for the online gaming community...

Also your 50k a piece is a little askew taking in account the materials, time, and effort. If you succeed 3 times and got all your synth items for free then each weapon is 50k, if you fail all 3 and get every item free its 165k lost, plus you have nothing to show for your 165k loss. If you have to find and or pay for all or most of your materials and fail all three you are probably looking at a 250-350k loss or more, on top of time and effort with nothing to show. This game is suppose to be fun, not a mirror of real life where people go broke with nothing to show for their time. Why play over 600 hours to have a pallet full of 165k worth of monomates?

I'm not saying make every synth work, but we should be able to raise our chances of success through times synthed/items sacrificed. Someone mentioned feeding PA Frags to your PM to raise %'s but I wouldn't give it a 1 for 1% addition because I can get 100 PA frags in less then a day, but maybe a % for every 20 or 25 frags. I don't mind working for what I want, I just don't like relying on chance and voodo for the time, effort, and money i spend online or irl...

Niloklives

Jul 17, 2007, 05:13 PM

JAF I don't know what your problem is, but iit seems to me your drive here has been some twisted sense of 360 advocasy. I mentioned the 50% weapons because I was showing how screwy probability is, I do more than enough damage with the weapons I have, but lets face it, if I attempt 300 weapons of the same time and element, according to the figures people have given, I should have something more to show for it than 150 monomates, 100 weapons under 20% and the remainder taunting me below 30% while my neighbors are pulling out in some cases one 50% a DAY. call me spoiled all you want, I'm simply trying to point out where the flaws are. that you had to turn that into fuel for an attackjust shows your own insecurity.

and of course no one told me anything would MAGICALLY come from a pure. but lets face it: a pure 410 should have a clear advantage over a GH-301 when synthing melee weapons. but 10% is nothing! think of it this way:

Fortefighters are melee weapon specialists. So much so that they can't use more than a simple handgun from ranged combat. but to offset that they have good regen on melee weapons and cost down as well as stats to highlight those strong points. somehow though a Fighgunner who's supposed to be more versatile but certainly not BETTER than a fortefighter, in this current system outshines a FF in almost every why due to stats and weapon selection.

Now that's hardly balanced, but it is is a reality. now similarly:

my 410 is a specialist in MAKING melee weapons. if she had a 0% chance of making any other type of weapon or armor, it would be perfectly understandable. as it stands with 0 in a stat, in some cases the success rate is next to 0; The PM equivalent of a FF. now my friend's 410 is a 50/50 and does not fall short enough in striking fr it to matter, buut can also synth ranged weapons with similar difficulty to that of a 430. my firend in this case has successfully made the PM equivalent of a FG.

it's NOT BALANCED.

who cares if no one told me a pure wouldn't be much better than a 50/50? The point here is that it does not make sense that putting in extra effort and planning out your pm, raising it all the way in that one stat and putting it to work synthing is next to pointless as I could raise it to lvl 50 and get similar results in all of my synths. Is that clear? a PM that is not even close to finished is not proportionally prone to failure. if the 50/50 has a 30% chance on each vs 55% on the pure, I wouldn't have ANY reason to complain about the pure's abilities. but a difference of 10 points isn't even worth mentioning.

I think if a PM could learn or grow or should be only pure PMs and only in their synth categories. There's no reason a 410 should be potentially better at or even just as capable of synthing ranged weapons than a 430.

JAFO22000

Jul 17, 2007, 05:29 PM

On 2007-07-17 14:23, Reipard wrote:
JAFO:

And why shouldn't we be able to synth for profit? Why does it have to be so punishing that attempting to synth for profit asks for failure? Synthing is almost useless; there is absolutely no benefit to synthing the weapon yourself that isn't eclipsed by the massive sunk costs you incurred if your luck was bad.

The only reason we put up with it is because there is no alternative for the things we want. I guaruntee that if completed S rank weapons were to drop somewhere alongside boards, you would see about 50% more people settling for the completed weapon than attempting to synth the board.

Synthesis should be a system that works for the player, not constantly against them. Nobody is saying that it should be absurdly easy to gain 50% S ranks, but the system should reward you for going to the effort to accomodate it, not punish you again and again.

I don't even synth for weapons I genuinely want anymore. I would much rather foot the cost for a weapon in a shop instead. It's less frustrating and more worth my time.

Think what you will.

If everyone could synth for profit, what would be the point? For instance, Let's say Vulcaline costs 7000 from NPC. If you could by Vestaline in the shop for 1000 apiece and a board to convert 3 Vestaline to 1 Vulcaline for 2000 in the shop, then you could make a Vulcaline for 5000 and sell it for 6000 in your shop, which would still be less than the 7000 from NPC. But if you could do it, EVERYONE could do it, thus there would be no market for it.

If you could buy all of the materials to make a weapon and make all three from a board everytime and sell these weapons for a profit, don't you see that there would be NO REASON for someone to buy the weapon from you as ANYONE could make the weapon for themselves at pretty much anytime? I'm not sure if this is being explained correctly, but if the synth percentages were increased to encourage more completions, don't you think people would be more apt to synth the stuff they needed for themselves?

The only problem with the people who synth things for profit is their inability to take a loss. When they buy a 9* board and only get one item from the synth, they end up trying to charge 800,000 for a 14% Light Ank Pikor! Who's gonna buy that?

Just because the system doesn't work in a way that makes a profit for you, that makes it a bad system? Once you understand that you probably won't make money synthing items for sale, then the system will work for you!

The benefit of synthing a weapon for yourself is the fact that you can find pretty much every material needed for the synth in your daily questing, thus the cost of materials is offset. Need some Majimras? Go to Neudaiz to farm Cyral and Neu Ebon. Need an Axe? To Moatoob we go! Hell, you could even synth for profit this way...if all you had was the cost of the board to worry about offsetting, then even making 1 of 3 on 2 9* boards will just about break you even (9* boards cost 180,000. 9* with poor element can go anywhere from 200,000 - 300,000). The smart ones who synth for profit synth Tech and Range weapons anyhow. Melee weapons are a sink because a bad percentage is pretty much like a failure. Armor is a sink because not only is a bad percentage a failure, the percentage to make them stinks!

Not synthing and deciding to purchase weapons can be VERY profitable. Sell all of your synth materials and let the other suckers make dimates and agtarides out of them. The money you make selling your synth items should more than cover the cost of the weapon in a player shop....for the low percentage ones, that is!

JAFO22000

Jul 17, 2007, 06:08 PM

On 2007-07-17 15:13, NIloklives wrote:
JAF I don't know what your problem is, but iit seems to me your drive here has been some twisted sense of 360 advocasy....that you had to turn that into fuel for an attackjust shows your own insecurity.

Stop right there. I specifically stated in my post that this is NOT an bash on the PC/PS2 community. I'm not attacking anyone based soley on community, rather made an OBSERVATION that the ones who seem to dislike the system are those on that community. I didn't say it was bad, just that you are spoiled. That you can even attempt 300 synths in a day is something I could never dream of. There are differences. I am just making an OBSERVATION, not bashing anyone. Plese don't turn this into a console war becuase that was not my intent.

and of course no one told me anything would MAGICALLY come from a pure. but lets face it: a pure 410 should have a clear advantage over a GH-301 when synthing melee weapons. but 10% is nothing! think of it this way:

Again, "Should have a clear advantage"....but it doesn't. And again, you knew this going in, yet you still went for a pure. Is that anyone's fault but your own? Who seems smarter now? You, who spent your money on a pure, or your friend with his 50/50? Nobody FORCED you to make a pure. Don't hate the system because it doesn't work the way YOU want it to.

who cares if no one told me a pure wouldn't be much better than a 50/50? The point here is that it does not make sense that putting in extra effort and planning out your pm, raising it all the way in that one stat and putting it to work synthing is next to pointless as I could raise it to lvl 50 and get similar results in all of my synths. Is that clear?

Crystal. You put in extra effort when you knew beforehand that you were not going to get that much extra in synth percentages. I'm sorry, but that makes you look stupid. I mean, if you're at a fork in the road and your friend takes the slightly longer straight, paved path to the left and you take the slightly shorter yet long, winding, unpaved, cold, dirty, uphill path to the right when you KNOW that the right path was long, winding, unpaved, cold, dirty and uphill beforehand, don't get mad because you put in extra work and arrived at your destination only 2 minutes before your friend.

[/quote]

Reipard

Jul 17, 2007, 06:34 PM

If everyone could synth for profit, what would be the point?

For one, it would lower the horrendously inflated prices on everything as supply would skyrocket (much like the new grinding system will do). People still blame it on haxeta, but by now supply and demand has already long since removed most of the impact of that.

For instance, Let's say Vulcaline costs 7000 from NPC. If you could by Vestaline in the shop for 1000 apiece and a board to convert 3 Vestaline to 1 Vulcaline for 2000 in the shop, then you could make a Vulcaline for 5000 and sell it for 6000 in your shop, which would still be less than the 7000 from NPC. But if you could do it, EVERYONE could do it, thus there would be no market for it.

I would rather that kind of utility be available than no utility at all, which would make for a useless system. Honestly, the economy is a joke anyway; in most major games with this same problem people just stop crafting for profit and the system becomes completely useless outside of the occasional benefit.

I would rather some improvement be made.

If you could buy all of the materials to make a weapon and make all three from a board everytime and sell these weapons for a profit, don't you see that there would be NO REASON for someone to buy the weapon from you as ANYONE could make the weapon for themselves at pretty much anytime? I'm not sure if this is being explained correctly, but if the synth percentages were increased to encourage more completions, don't you think people would be more apt to synth the stuff they needed for themselves?

Nobody is saying the synth system should be 100% rewarding without effort. I thought I made that much clear. But as it is right now, it is too punishing to be useful for anything. And I will reiterate that its only current utility is because of forced necessity.

The only problem with the people who synth things for profit is their inability to take a loss. When they buy a 9* board and only get one item from the synth, they end up trying to charge 800,000 for a 14% Light Ank Pikor! Who's gonna buy that?

Just because the system doesn't work in a way that makes a profit for you, that makes it a bad system? Once you understand that you probably won't make money synthing items for sale, then the system will work for you!

What's wrong with not being able to take a loss? Most businesses don't want to take a loss either. Synthing for profit isn't good business in this state. And profit is really the only reason to synth since everything else you can get out of the system is buyable thanks to the wonder of player market without having to cut your losses and deal with the hassle.

I accepted that synthing won't make me money long ago. Now I just don't use it at all because nothing I can do with it benefits me. Hmm. Sounds like a flawed gameplay element to me.

The benefit of synthing a weapon for yourself is the fact that you can find pretty much every material needed for the synth in your daily questing, thus the cost of materials is offset. Need some Majimras? Go to Neudaiz to farm Cyral and Neu Ebon. Need an Axe? To Moatoob we go! Hell, you could even synth for profit this way...if all you had was the cost of the board to worry about offsetting, then even making 1 of 3 on 2 9* boards will just about break you even (9* boards cost 180,000. 9* with poor element can go anywhere from 200,000 - 300,000). The smart ones who synth for profit synth Tech and Range weapons anyhow. Melee weapons are a sink because a bad percentage is pretty much like a failure. Armor is a sink because not only is a bad percentage a failure, the percentage to make them stinks!

That would be another sunk cost- time. Who wants to spend the time doing that tedious crap just to be able to synthesize a sword one time? I know I don't.

Not synthing and deciding to purchase weapons can be VERY profitable. Sell all of your synth materials and let the other suckers make dimates and agtarides out of them. The money you make selling your synth items should more than cover the cost of the weapon in a player shop....for the low percentage ones, that is!

That's pretty much what I already do. I'm not even sure I needed a PM in the first place, really.

[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-07-17 16:35 ]

ljkkjlcm9

Jul 17, 2007, 06:37 PM

On 2007-07-16 14:02, JAFO22000 wrote:
Two-headed Ragnus board is a bit harder to obtain than a Buccaneer board. Also, the Buccaneer board has three synth chances, while the Ragnus board has only one. The higher synth rate is really your "reward" for finding the board. I mean, wouldn't it suck to get one of these boards only to find out that the synth rate was 37% and you only get one shot?

Most "High-level" players you are alluding to have a bunch of A rank items anyhow, maybe one or two S rank weapons (if any!), so they are in the same "boat" as you are in.

Bolded part, Crea Doubles are 37% chance to synth, and funny enough I failed 2 and made one(2 months of only that mission)

anyways it's as people have said, you can buy them and the materials, and have 3 chances

THE JACKEL

Niloklives

Jul 17, 2007, 07:02 PM

On 2007-07-17 16:08, JAFO22000 wrote:

On 2007-07-17 15:13, NIloklives wrote:
JAF I don't know what your problem is, but iit seems to me your drive here has been some twisted sense of 360 advocasy....that you had to turn that into fuel for an attackjust shows your own insecurity.

Stop right there. I specifically stated in my post that this is NOT an bash on the PC/PS2 community. I'm not attacking anyone based soley on community, rather made an OBSERVATION that the ones who seem to dislike the system are those on that community. I didn't say it was bad, just that you are spoiled. That you can even attempt 300 synths in a day is something I could never dream of. There are differences. I am just making an OBSERVATION, not bashing anyone. Plese don't turn this into a console war becuase that was not my intent.

and of course no one told me anything would MAGICALLY come from a pure. but lets face it: a pure 410 should have a clear advantage over a GH-301 when synthing melee weapons. but 10% is nothing! think of it this way:

Again, "Should have a clear advantage"....but it doesn't. And again, you knew this going in, yet you still went for a pure. Is that anyone's fault but your own? Who seems smarter now? You, who spent your money on a pure, or your friend with his 50/50? Nobody FORCED you to make a pure. Don't hate the system because it doesn't work the way YOU want it to.

who cares if no one told me a pure wouldn't be much better than a 50/50? The point here is that it does not make sense that putting in extra effort and planning out your pm, raising it all the way in that one stat and putting it to work synthing is next to pointless as I could raise it to lvl 50 and get similar results in all of my synths. Is that clear?

Crystal. You put in extra effort when you knew beforehand that you were not going to get that much extra in synth percentages. I'm sorry, but that makes you look stupid. I mean, if you're at a fork in the road and your friend takes the slightly longer straight, paved path to the left and you take the slightly shorter yet long, winding, unpaved, cold, dirty, uphill path to the right when you KNOW that the right path was long, winding, unpaved, cold, dirty and uphill beforehand, don't get mad because you put in extra work and arrived at your destination only 2 minutes before your friend.

I knew what going in? when you first get on to PSU does someone pull you aside and say "hey...pure PMs suck"? nope, you have to find out all of this on your own.

And you seem to be stuck on "that's the way it is" no one is disputing the way the system is set up. what we're disputing is whether or not this system was well thought out and discussing where it falls short. though you still want to hurl insults and try to make me seem stupid, yet I'm not the one who incapable of understanding as simple a concept as an imbalance.

I find it interesting you would pick these small portions of my post and try to twist my words rather than actually respond to what many other feel are good points and offer counter points other than "tough shit". It's THAT garbage along side your talk of the PS2/PC users being spoiled that's making you come off as some deranged elitist who's more jealous than anything else.

The system is flawed. Yes it is the system we're currently stuck with. but it is grotesquely flawed and offers no rewards to those who invest their time, energy and money into the system. You have yet to say anything to argue against this but rather tell those of us who HAVE invested our time and energy and money into the system that we're stupid.

There's no nice way to describe that kind of attitude.

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-07-17 17:12 ]

XDeviousX

Jul 17, 2007, 07:09 PM

On 2007-07-17 15:13, NIloklives wrote:
who cares if no one told me a pure wouldn't be much better than a 50/50? The point here is that it does not make sense that putting in extra effort and planning out your pm, raising it all the way in that one stat and putting it to work synthing is next to pointless as I could raise it to lvl 50 and get similar results in all of my synths. Is that clear?

On 2007-07-17 16:08, JAFO22000 wrote:
Crystal. You put in extra effort when you knew beforehand that you were not going to get that much extra in synth percentages. I'm sorry, but that makes you look stupid. I mean, if you're at a fork in the road and your friend takes the slightly longer straight, paved path to the left and you take the slightly shorter yet long, winding, unpaved, cold, dirty, uphill path to the right when you KNOW that the right path was long, winding, unpaved, cold, dirty and uphill beforehand, don't get mad because you put in extra work and arrived at your destination only 2 minutes before your friend.

You totally miss the point. We all know raising a pure PM is not a guarantee of synthing weapons, but it SHOULD increase the chances of people trying to make weapons, otherwise why did ST put the % chances there? Did they just like taunting us? Obviously they meant for those numbers to mean something and for some FLAWED reason they obviously don't...

Also, nobody is saying every synth should magically just work, but that there should be a way to further increase synthing success rates. In a game where your character, class, and skill levels all raise by use and by player time/effort why leave synthing up to basic random fate/luck? It is human nature to expect more out of something you invest more time, effort, and money into, in fact, it's what drives not only U.S. but world economics! You can't invest 1 dollar and get more money back then someone that invests 100 dollars in the same stock, at the same exchange rate! Not everyone will have the or give the time, money, ability, or posses the desire to increase a PM to reliable levels. Most people don't even give the time or effort for the current pure PM system. If you make the effort hard/involving but the reward ARGUABLY worth it, then some people will synth for money and others will just synth what they need and pray it works. The person making a reliable synthing PM in this case would be recouping losses as well as making a profit at some point, while still having the occasional failure to not flood the market with weapons.

There is no need for PSU to punish a player with the synthing system the way it does. ST has fixed a lot of things people have found fault/problems with and for me synthing not only seems problematic, but also incomplete.

Jaded...

It occurs to me the people defending the synthing system either never synth or have had such good luck they've become apathetic to the flaws.

please stop with the generalizing and petty message board "I know why you're posting" "Or you're just complaining because..." tactics. It gets old and makes a topic turn toxic...

Sekani

Jul 17, 2007, 07:38 PM

I don't have good synthing luck, I just know how to minimize my frustrations with it. The success rate on nine-star weapons sucks, so I don't bother making them. There's no reason to. Seven and eight-star weapons are fine, and they're a lot easier (and cheaper) to retry for high percents.

If you're obsessed with synthing nine-star weapons for profit, you're setting yourself up to be pissed off. I'd even go so far as to say that the game discourages it.

As for your overall point, I'll only agree with you so far as to change the armor synthing system. The costs and success rates on armor are inexplicably brutal.

Deus-Irae

Jul 17, 2007, 07:53 PM

On 2007-07-17 08:33, JAFO22000 wrote:
NOT a bash on the PC/PS2 population, just an observation.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

yeah because you have so much to contribute to the topic...

BloodDragoon

Jul 17, 2007, 07:58 PM

Well this thread's becoming absolutely pointless simply because certain people refuse to acknowledge any argument against their opinion of the system...

Time? effort? investment to make a lv 100 PM? You can make a pure for as low as 500K. An amount even a lv 10 could get in 1 day by doing "Her Secret Mission" provided they can find a party that isn't lead by an elitist prick that boots them because of their lvl. Time, well once the money issue is out of the way it only takes a few days of feeding. Effort? HSM is extremely easy on C rank and once again money issue aside its just a matter of running from room to floor 2 of Guardian Colony.

Every game with any type of crafting system needs some guaranteed way to remove these items from circulation or you run the risk of killing what economy the game has since the supply would be there and never go away and NPC or mission generated money would never leave player circulation because everything an NPC might sell would be in a shop for 10% of the NPC price or less just because people would be constantly trying to undercut eachother to clear out their inventory. The current system does a good job of preventing this scenario which is why I say it isn't flawed like you think it is. To be honest I wasn't impressed with WoW's crafting system, which seems to be somewhat similar to what you're asking for. On that system if you had the minimal skill needed you had a 100% success rate to make the item. The only reason this system didn't completely choke out the economy on that game was that nice little "bind on pickup" or "bind on equip" flag that was found on any uncommon or higher rarity rated item which prevented players from freely passing or selling the item either upon creation or when it was equipped. FFXI's craft system to be honest probably scared 80% of the game's population away from even trying to become a master craftsman with its horribly slow gain process and the ludicrous amount of money needed to do some of the craft types. (Blacksmithing, Goldsmithing lv 100 ugh...). Add to it FFXI required you to lvl sub crafts for alot of equipment so you couldn't just focus on 1 guild half the time then the whole face (x) direction for (y) element on (z) moon phase just to find a majority of the items made through crafting now sell for less to players than the materials needed to make them which even on alot of stackable consumables meant the only way you could make a profit is to play the system and hope for HQ synths which on comparable lvl equipment on FFXI has a lower chance of happening than you getting a 50% element 9* on here.

Niloklives

Jul 17, 2007, 08:20 PM

On 2007-07-17 17:58, BloodDragoon wrote:
Well this thread's becoming absolutely pointless simply because certain people refuse to acknowledge any argument against their opinion of the system...

Time? effort? investment to make a lv 100 PM? You can make a pure for as low as 500K. An amount even a lv 10 could get in 1 day by doing "Her Secret Mission" provided they can find a party that isn't lead by an elitist prick that boots them because of their lvl. Time, well once the money issue is out of the way it only takes a few days of feeding. Effort? HSM is extremely easy on C rank and once again money issue aside its just a matter of running from room to floor 2 of Guardian Colony.

Every game with any type of crafting system needs some guaranteed way to remove these items from circulation or you run the risk of killing what economy the game has since the supply would be there and never go away and NPC or mission generated money would never leave player circulation because everything an NPC might sell would be in a shop for 10% of the NPC price or less just because people would be constantly trying to undercut eachother to clear out their inventory. The current system does a good job of preventing this scenario which is why I say it isn't flawed like you think it is. To be honest I wasn't impressed with WoW's crafting system, which seems to be somewhat similar to what you're asking for. On that system if you had the minimal skill needed you had a 100% success rate to make the item. The only reason this system didn't completely choke out the economy on that game was that nice little "bind on pickup" or "bind on equip" flag that was found on any uncommon or higher rarity rated item which prevented players from freely passing or selling the item either upon creation or when it was equipped. FFXI's craft system to be honest probably scared 80% of the game's population away from even trying to become a master craftsman with its horribly slow gain process and the ludicrous amount of money needed to do some of the craft types. (Blacksmithing, Goldsmithing lv 100 ugh...). Add to it FFXI required you to lvl sub crafts for alot of equipment so you couldn't just focus on 1 guild half the time then the whole face (x) direction for (y) element on (z) moon phase just to find a majority of the items made through crafting now sell for less to players than the materials needed to make them which even on alot of stackable consumables meant the only way you could make a profit is to play the system and hope for HQ synths which on comparable lvl equipment on FFXI has a lower chance of happening than you getting a 50% element 9* on here.

HSM has been out HOW long? that is a recent development and I for one feel that mission's rewards are ridiculous for how little effort it takes.

That aside, not everyone started playing two weeks ago where the game started handing things to you. having a lvl 5 with an expert class used to be a funny "what if" and you can't use that more recent development and act as if we all had it that easy.

Furthermore as I pointed out, raising a PM from 0 to 100 raises chances of success with a 9* by 20 points. that's not enough to inspire ANYONE to even RAISE a PM. but if you DID bother to raise one to even 50, you'd be well within a 50% chance of success which is the same as a pure.

Also the less money you spend on raising your PM the longer it takes to do so. not always proportionately so, but if you only feed it 1* weapons, that's 4 levels every 12 hours which translates to about 2 weeks if you work at it around the clock or a month if you feed it once a day. a higher rate of growth results in millions being spent on the development of your PM. even in HSM that's a lot of grinding. so lets not argue time and energy invested. it's there and its unrewarded.

the issue here is that I don't have to raise my PM to get results. My PM could be a lvl 0 and my odds of success are not a whole like lower than someone with a PURE. and even then if a person gets a 50% on their first try which is not influenced by PM level at all, they're done and don't have to synth that weapon/element anymore. yet the person with the pure could be at one weapon for months and never get the results they want.

Where's the sense of balance there? little difference in failure rate and equal chances of getting a good% but no time invested into the PM.

I'm not talking about everything remaining the same in PM raising but the end result. I'm saying that raising your PM to 100% and a PURE to boot could be exceedingly difficult or time consuming. perhaps like mag raising was where every stage of evolution changed it's preferred diet and the like. But the payoff for having something as a SPECIALIST should be significantly better than that of the person who just dumped anything they weren't using into their PM until it hit 100.

EDIT: I just wanted to give everyone a break down of earnings on HSM and time invested to get that kind of money doing runs there.

10k a run getting S only. that's 15 minutes for every 10k, though longer if you factor in people leaving parties, the occasional DC, restocking and all that...but 15 minutes for every 10k.

500k/10k = 50 runs to get your money, minus expenses. we'll say 50 though just for the sake of argument.

this means. 50 runs at 15 minutes each to get the minimum value to raise a PM. that translates to 750 minutes, or 13.5 HOURS. that's a day for someone who eats sleeps and breathes this game. but not realistic for the casual gamer to be sure, and hardly realistic for even most of us hardcore types.

That's 14 hours of heavy grinding a 2 weeks where you mold your schedule around feeding your PM. now lets say you'd rather feed your PM the fast way. 2-3 million to raise your PM in about week of semi casual feeding. this entails anwhere between 4 and 6 of blooddragon's "days" and then a week of feeding your PM. 4-6 14 hour days and 5-7 scheduled feedings costing 500k-600k each. and that's with the goldmine that is HSM...that sounds like a pretty hefty time sink.

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-07-17 18:53 ]

Finalzone

Jul 18, 2007, 01:05 AM

Odd. We got holiday light. I managed to synthetize 5 different Nighthawkers in a row after spending playing my FG with only daggers, trap and a high grinded B sabers. I don't care about S weapons for the moment as a skilled fighter with a high grinder A weapons can do more damage than a plain S weapon.

I agree with some posts that some people like to complain no matter what. You take a risk or you don't.

Niloklives

Jul 18, 2007, 01:10 AM

that's dependant on the weapons and the grind. elemental % and all that other stuff.. skill has nothing to do with iit. if the S rank is superior that "skilled" player would be better off with the better weapon. but you missed the point entirely. this isn't about S ranks vs A ranks or grinding. this is about te synth system

panzer_unit

Jul 18, 2007, 09:00 AM

On 2007-07-17 14:24, XDeviousX wrote:

On 2007-07-17 10:56, panzer_unit wrote

I addressed what you're talking about directly. Those 9* synths cost like 50k each (1/3 the board) if you only roll the dice after foraging for all the materials in S2 missions. Blowing millions of meseta on impatience to get a palette of weapons NOW... that's your money and your choice.

Are you serious? Most people needing to synth A ranked weapons cannot randomly run S2 missions
...
New players on PS2/PC and people in general on the 360 don't have millions to waist on synthing weapons/armor.
...
Also your 50k a piece is a little askew taking in account the materials, time, and effort.

This is a ton of BS. You're not entitled to a full palette in each element of all the 9*s you can use... try 7* or 8* if you actually need to arm yourself, they're much cheaper and more reliable to make. All it takes is an element% worth keeping, or a full set of High / Very High chance grinds and they're on par with the basic higher-rank model.

9*'s are only half a step away from S-ranks in terms of overall power, if it wasn't for the flood of hacked money they'd be a similar half-step away for rarity. It would take 10-20 S2 missions to earn money for the board, some people are lucky enough to find an S-rank board in that many runs.

In terms of synth chances, 9*'s are close to 50% for all PM's. Is that fair for people with Pures? You're certainly not getting a worse deal than people with Hybrid PM's like me, and you had MUCH higher chances on equipment the whole way along as you leveled up. 80% chance on 6*, 65% chance on 7*... those are way lower failure rates than I had to deal with.

BloodDragoon

Jul 18, 2007, 09:32 AM

HSM can be done in as little as 8 minutes. The only time it takes the full 15 on the timer is when people don't know what they are doing or the entire party is under leveled. Average run time of a competent party that isn't under leveled is about 10-11 minutes. Now if we average the mission time at 10 minutes we find that the gain is 60K per hour. (Expenses in most cases is pointless as mate and money drops in mission will cover usage and photon recharges.) This takes your 13+ hour time frame and drops it to 8.3 hours.

Sure this might be a recent development but then I know from actually playing on the PS2 version originally that a alot of people on the PC/PS2 were able to quickly and easily make lv 100 PM's during the dupeseta days simply because they could sell elemental photons in their shop for 10-25K a piece and those drop like candy in missions.

The other issue is you want a much higher chance of synth success on the highest rarity boards you can buy in the shop. These weapons aren't sold in completed form from NPC's, But then if you had this high chance of success so would everyone else with a pure PM, which would in turn flood the market, which leads to people undercutting eachother, which would eventually lead people to complain about the economy because you cant get more than 10-50K those 9* weapons in your shop.

RegulusHikari

Jul 18, 2007, 09:39 AM

On 2007-07-17 08:33, JAFO22000 wrote:
Spoiled.

That's all I have to say. The one's complaining are the PC/PS2 players who can't achieve a pallette full of 50% 9*'s and a full complement of 50% 9* armor boards. After their 100's of milliions have dissapeared with "only" 5 or 6 weapons above 30%, they see other's pallettes and get jealous and frustrated that they can't have the same.

Us po' people on the 360 have come to respect the system and take what it gives. Making a 16% 9* weapon is a bit of a bummer, but a success to us. When you don't have money to throw away, something is better than nothing.

Niko, in your example about your 100% striking PM vs. your friends 50/50 PM, nobody told you that a pure PM was going to magically start making every weapon in sight, nor that it would be 50% better than your friends hybrid PM. Unless you were uninformed, you made this PM with the understanding that you'd only get a few extra percentage points anyway, but you never know when those can come in handy.

NOT a bash on the PC/PS2 population, just an observation. When there is plenty of food to go around, people start complaining that the fois gras is too salty or the Beef Wellington was a bit overdone. When you don't have much food, people will respect that PBJ sandwich they get, even if the bread is a little old and they prefer creamy over crunchy, but don't complain!; at least you have something to eat.

This post is so close to the truth. And all those PC/PS2 players (WHICH I AM A PART OF) who argue instantly take it as a personal attack because their self esteem is so low, they can't deal with a person who thinks differently of them in a video game. People, GTF over it. If you really sit down and give it some thought, JAFO is absolutely right.

If you never saw more than 1 or 2 random 50% weapons, would you be so inclined to get them yourself? But now that you see about 50% of the lobby you're in has them, you're thinking to yourself, "why don't I?". You've become SO accustomed to them that you suddenly ASSUME that they should be easy to get. EVERYTHING needs to be easy in this game, nobody can work for what they have can they?

I'd argue against all of you who think we need less failures, I'd argue against all of you who think 50% should be more common, and I'd argue with all of you who take personal offense to the console which you are playing a game on, but after just skimming this topic, I can see it is filled with biased opinions coming from people who can't listen, who do not want to listen, and who will never listen to the opinion coming from the other side.

Theoderic

Jul 18, 2007, 09:40 AM

Honestly, I thought the synth system sucked, but I think it is just fine, in terms of non armor related items go. If you take a look at what items classes can equip, the ranks are A and S. I believe that rates on 9* synths are low because for some classes, 9* is as good as it gets for certain weapon types. Had ST allowed for Basic classes to use S Ranks of a certain type, and Advanced classes to be limited to B Rank of certain types, then the same type of rates would be seen on 6* weapons, being the highest teir of B Ranks. I congratulate whoever foresaw this, because if they had not, we would be pretty much repeating the 9* drops that were existant on PSO. I would love to be able to have the 6 50% Buccaneers that I have been trying to synth for 3 months, but I am content with 2 44% ones for now. When it comes to S Ranks, the only reason I think they have a higher rate to synth is due to there being only 1 attempt, and that the materials are kind of hard to come by. If there were 3 synth attempts on them, then they would probably be 3 times as rare as they are now, which would just further frustrate people. How would people feel if I had a P-Wand board on my PM and it had 3 attempts? I think there would be so much hate, ("How the hell did he manage to get that, AND have 3 attempts at it!? I want to steal it, kill him, then /wrist!") because it was EXTREMELY rare, and I have 3 chances at it. But if I got one today, it would have one chance, and people might think "Oh, it might be made, lucky bastard."

The ONLY thing I think that needs to be reworked is the Armor PMs. Below are things that may help:

Increase the drop frequency of the materials used for them
Decrease the amount of certain materials for them
Increase the armor synth rates by 10%

(Just one of those, not any of them collectively).

JAFO22000

Jul 18, 2007, 10:03 AM

On 2007-07-18 07:39, RegulusHikari wrote:
This post is so close to the truth. And all those PC/PS2 players (WHICH I AM A PART OF) who argue instantly take it as a personal attack because their self esteem is so low, they can't deal with a person who thinks differently of them in a video game. People, GTF over it. If you really sit down and give it some thought, JAFO is absolutely right.

If you never saw more than 1 or 2 random 50% weapons, would you be so inclined to get them yourself? But now that you see about 50% of the lobby you're in has them, you're thinking to yourself, "why don't I?". You've become SO accustomed to them that you suddenly ASSUME that they should be easy to get. EVERYTHING needs to be easy in this game, nobody can work for what they have can they?

I'd argue against all of you who think we need less failures, I'd argue against all of you who think 50% should be more common, and I'd argue with all of you who take personal offense to the console which you are playing a game on, but after just skimming this topic, I can see it is filled with biased opinions coming from people who can't listen, who do not want to listen, and who will never listen to the opinion coming from the other side.

Thanks for reading and understanding my post Hikari! I don't "hate" nor am I "jealous" of those on the PC/PS2 servers and, knowing that what I said may cause rage, I consciously wrote that my post was not meant for a bash. Too bad that it was taken that way.

All have to admit that the hacking/scripting that occurred on the PC/PS2 servers changed certain aspects of the game. I'm not saying the 360 is better in any way, only that we seem to have different views due to the fact that meseta did not come to us as easily.

Sekani

Jul 18, 2007, 10:25 AM

Is this thread even about the flaws of the synthing system anymore? Looks like it's degenerated into an "I want what he has and I'm pissed because I can't get it" rant.

panzer_unit

Jul 18, 2007, 10:37 AM

We can't have all the 50% 9*'s we can equip... because of flaws in the synthing system! It's not immediate and free.

JAFO22000

Jul 18, 2007, 11:22 AM

On 2007-07-18 08:25, Sekani wrote:
Is this thread even about the flaws of the synthing system anymore? Looks like it's degenerated into an "I want what he has and I'm pissed because I can't get it" rant.

Isn't that what eventually happens to all threads?!?!?! lol Either that, or console wars...

XDeviousX

Jul 18, 2007, 12:46 PM

I am not complaining about having 50% elemented weapons at all, or ever. I am not crying because I don't have a full pallet of 9* weeapons, because I do, and I'm not even crying because I never maid money from synthing weapons, because I have, these things are not and were not the point so please read carefully...

I wouldn't mind the synth rates being so low on a PURE mag, or even LOWERED as long as we were able to raise synth rates even further with more time and effort. The synthing system now relies on PURE luck, and I think sinc everyone build charecter, class, and skill levels through hard work why can't ST come up with a way that takes a lot of time, energy, and mesta, to increase synth rates and raise your PM's ability to synth items? I'm not saying give me all my synths without any failing, or I need all 50% weapons, I'm saying let everyone earn better chances to synth things, either by increasing levels for all synth, or being able to increase levels on a synth by synth basis so if you really want/need a weapon you can go the extra mile and put in extra effort/money/time to try and make sure it synths.

My other point is that you shouldn't come away with nothing for failed synths. This is just a horrible decision on ST part which they obviously agreed with because in AOtI they allow you to fail a synth and keep your boards in tact, but you lose the materials. This system isn't so bad as you don't go bust on valued or badly needed synths. That is a great start to what I've been talking about.

I am not asking to be given anything I am talking about being able to put in extra effort, time, and mesta, to be able to achieve a better synth rate, and I don't care if it isn't easy, because it shouldn't be, I just think a set in stone/static synth rate for everyone, that is so low, is a bad idea. The economy wouldn't be over balanced by weapons if the system cost/is hard enough that most players wouldn't invest in doing it.

Nobody ever quotes the parts where I talk about effort and trials, only very select parts to try and skew my argument. If the synth system is never fixed I still have a pallet full of 9* weapons and the means to get more anytime I want. This post is not a complaint about what I don't have, it is a complaint about what I see wrong with the system. You people trying to put words in my mouth need to settle down and start reading my posts...

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-18 10:47 ]

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-18 10:49 ]

Sexy_Raine

Jul 18, 2007, 01:13 PM

I don't want start anything, so I'll just say this. "Success is failure", that sums up this system pretty well.

Sychosis

Jul 18, 2007, 01:14 PM

On 2007-07-18 10:46, XDeviousX wrote:

I wouldn't mind the synth rates being so low on a PURE mag, or even LOWERED as long as we were able to raise synth rates even further with more time and effort. The synthing system now relies on PURE luck, and I think sinc everyone build charecter, class, and skill levels through hard work why can't ST come up with a way that takes a lot of time, energy, and mesta, to increase synth rates and raise your PM's ability to synth items?

Isn't this exactly how it works right now? PM food doesn't grow on trees (unless you feed it wood XD), you earn it through drops, meseta earned on missions, and possibly even previous synths.

It really just sounds like you're whining about not having high success rates.

[ This Message was edited by: Sychosis on 2007-07-18 11:15 ]

panzer_unit

Jul 18, 2007, 01:28 PM

On 2007-07-18 11:13, Sexy_Raine wrote:
I don't want start anything, so I'll just say this. "Success is failure", that sums up this system pretty well.

This thread's a huge success. Arguing over how some guy wants a couple more % on synthesis rates. What if you pump up your odds (especially if it costs or takes time) and STILL fail?

I do like the "keep the board" thing in AoI... I might save rare armor boards I get until then. 3 tries at 37% on an item I haven't seen in 1000 hours of game is a bit daunting.

EDIT: getting a lower-rank item as a consolation prize blows IMO. For any rank of weapon even, not just S' ... I'm trying to make Gudda Gant. I don't WANT Gudda Godda from a failed synth, I've got all of those that I could use already and I'm trying to upgrade dammit. At least there's a good chance I _use_ that dimate or whatever.

Maybe if a botched synth could make a room deco of that weapon? "Here's the Huge Cutter I almost had..."

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-07-18 12:23 ]

Inazuma

Jul 18, 2007, 02:14 PM

keep the board even after a fail, in AOI? i would be extremely fucking thrilled if that was the case, but it sounds too good to be true. can someone please confirm this?

JAFO22000

Jul 18, 2007, 02:44 PM

On 2007-07-18 10:46, XDeviousX wrote:
Nobody ever quotes the parts where I talk about effort and trials, only very select parts to try and skew my argument. If the synth system is never fixed I still have a pallet full of 9* weapons and the means to get more anytime I want. This post is not a complaint about what I don't have, it is a complaint about what I see wrong with the system. You people trying to put words in my mouth need to settle down and start reading my posts...

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-18 10:47 ]

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-18 10:49 ]

OK, I believe I have replied regarding your "efforts and trial" argument, but if you don't recall, let me reiterate:

If they allowed higher synth rates for those who synth more often, people would just find a way around this system (like they do every other system) and everyone would still end up with the NEW pure PM's; all of which will have the same % chance to make an item. (By finding their way around the system, I'm referring to buying a ton of 1* boards and synthing them over and over again until they get the highest % available.)

No "effort and trial" in that. Even if you tier the system so that a 7* synth would be worth more "points" than a 3* synth, someone would eventually figure out the most efficient, easiest, cheapest way to get your PM to the new "pure" and everyone would then do that before synthing anything, therefore everyone would still be on a level playing field and your "effort and trial" would be for naught.

You would still complain that you don't get "90 of 90 synths like the other guys" and "The synth process is based purely on luck!"

panzer_unit

Jul 18, 2007, 02:52 PM

If the fail rate on synthesis was halved (~75% success rate for 9*'s with pure PM, compare with 1* maxed at 90%) and costs were doubled, it would take more meseta / time farming to produce each weapon than it does now. Same deal if you move it to ~25% success and half the costs/attempt.

Just a statistical reality check.

XDeviousX

Jul 18, 2007, 03:56 PM

On 2007-07-18 11:14, Sychosis wrote:
Isn't this exactly how it works right now? PM food doesn't grow on trees (unless you feed it wood XD), you earn it through drops, meseta earned on missions, and possibly even previous synths.

It really just sounds like you're whining about not having high success rates.

[ This Message was edited by: Sychosis on 2007-07-18 11:15 ]

Its not exactly what I'm talking about, please
research further...

OK, I believe I have replied regarding your "efforts and trial" argument, but if you don't recall, let me reiterate:

If they allowed higher synth rates for those who synth more often, people would just find a way around this system (like they do every other system) and everyone would still end up with the NEW pure PM's; all of which will have the same % chance to make an item. (By finding their way around the system, I'm referring to buying a ton of 1* boards and synthing them over and over again until they get the highest % available.)

You could have added input or made a suggestion or asked instead of assuming this point, You'd have to successfully synth the * level of the weapon a number of times before you get an increase for that *'s synthing. IE if you synth 100 1* weapons your chance to synth them increases, but your chance to synth 2* and up stays the same. Instead of finding flaws and telling people why they wouldn't work you COULD try either fixing them to complete a better system or asking if you are unsure...

Even if you tier the system so that a 7* synth would be worth more "points" than a 3* synth, someone would eventually figure out the most efficient, easiest, cheapest way to get your PM to the new "pure" and everyone would then do that before synthing anything, therefore everyone would still be on a level playing field and your "effort and trial" would be for naught.

Trying to make a system hack/crack proof is impossible to some extents, but if people based games on being 100% hack/crack proof then no game developers would make a game, the point is not that a vague system is hackable but to make suggestions that would sure it up to a workable level. Instead of being a nay-sayer you could contribute to a solution. ..

You would still complain that you don't get "90 of 90 synths like the other guys" and "The synth process is based purely on luck!"

Actually I would be mad if I missed 90 out of 90 synths on ANY system, anyone would, and if I didn't get 90 out of 90, say I got 65, and somebody got 90 out of 90, well then it would suck but I wouldn't cry about it. I'm not mad about my synths not working, just that the system for failure/success is flawed.

Furthermore, If they were able to make Leveling synth stats, AFTER you've made a "pure" pm, hard to obtain/achieve then not only would you need to invest a lot of time/mesta, but a lot of people might not have the desire, ore time/mesta to do it, but especially if you were only to raise the % chance to increase success based on a synth by synth basis...

EXAMPLE:
You could just take the regular synth numbers and rely on the odds or you could increase your odds on that synth by some means. Someone suggested feeding your PM PA Frags. Lets just for argument shake say 20 frags = +1% to a designated synth, that means 100 frags = a 5% increase, thats a lot of work, time and effort for one synth. Lets also say that the synth rate for anything not automatically 100% is 90 so you still have a chance for failure but the odds are greater you won't. Taking the time to amass 700 PA frags to increase a synth rate from the current 55% for a 9* to 90% should mean the best POSSIBLE chance to get a success and although Failure would suck at that point, the chance of success and failure would still be in the hands of the person synthing. Not everyone would amass 700 PA frags everytime they synthed a weapon/armor/item. Also, just another random suggestion...

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-18 14:00 ]

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-18 14:01 ]

panzer_unit

Jul 18, 2007, 04:09 PM

XDeviousX

Jul 18, 2007, 04:23 PM

On 2007-07-18 14:09, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-07-18 13:56, XDeviousX wrote:
EXAMPLE:
You could just take the regular synth numbers and rely on the odds or you could increase your odds on that synth by some means. Someone suggested feeding your PM PA Frags. Lets just for argument shake say 20 frags = +1% to a designated synth, that means 100 frags = a 5% increase, thats a lot of work, time and effort for one synth. Lets also say that the synth rate for anything not automatically 100% is 90 so you still have a chance for failure but the odds are greater you won't.

In the 350 S2 missions it takes to get 700 PA frags, you would earn enough money and material to buy 3 more boards and probably fully stock up on the required materials. That's 9 more 50-50 chances or (probably) 4 additional weapons, in addition to having the one you're working on (probably) come out. I guess.

Seems like a non-solution, which is appropriate since synthesis rates and results aren't a problem if you're not trying to jump to 9* weapons out of the blue.

Actually, in the case of one shot and special boards, and A ranked armors, that one shot PA Frag amassed boost is golded. If you really need a 9* weapon then it's great, if you're just synthing for elemental% and or profit, it's a lot of work, but thats the point, it rewards people that apply the effort out of need or wanting badly to make a weapon/armor. It is not a solution where everyone would gain, and it would take a lot of time. A lower Level player that buys a 9* board and continues to feed their PM PA Frags while they level will have a great chance to synth at least 1 weapon on their board purchase, or the armor they need/want. Again, it is a suggestion so you could add to it, or make another...

JAFO22000

Jul 18, 2007, 05:45 PM

Wait, are you saying in your example that the 700 PA frags needed to get a 9* board to have a 90% chance of succeeding would only be a 1 time deal? Like, after that particular synth is done, your PM would revert back to pre-PA level, thus you'd have to obtain ANOTHER 700 PA frags for the next synth on that board to be 90%???

Panzer said it all...in the time it would take to amass that many PA frags (350 S2 missions, achieving S ranks on all of them!), you would make enough money to buy what you were trying to synth! Even lowballing the mission reward at 10,000/mission, after 350 missions you'd have 3.5 million....

Inazuma

Jul 18, 2007, 06:08 PM

S3 missions could give you 2 PA frags and 1 "synth booster" item. then when you go to add ingredients for an item to synth, youd be able to add your synth booster items to increase the chance. and it should be able to reach 100% success chance too.

however they wanna go about it, it should be possible for someone to increase the chance of a synth, instead of it being pure luck. reward your players for working hard towards a goal, ST!

Sekani

Jul 18, 2007, 06:19 PM

On 2007-07-18 13:56, XDeviousX wrote:
EXAMPLE:
You could just take the regular synth numbers and rely on the odds or you could increase your odds on that synth by some means. Someone suggested feeding your PM PA Frags. Lets just for argument shake say 20 frags = +1% to a designated synth, that means 100 frags = a 5% increase, thats a lot of work, time and effort for one synth. Lets also say that the synth rate for anything not automatically 100% is 90 so you still have a chance for failure but the odds are greater you won't. Taking the time to amass 700 PA frags to increase a synth rate from the current 55% for a 9* to 90% should mean the best POSSIBLE chance to get a success and although Failure would suck at that point, the chance of success and failure would still be in the hands of the person synthing. Not everyone would amass 700 PA frags everytime they synthed a weapon/armor/item. Also, just another random suggestion...

Well... WHY?! Why would anyone be so desperate to get a successful synth on a nine-star weapon? The boards and materials are all available from the NPC, you can synth them as many times as you want as long as you have meseta. Instead of amassing 700 PA frags, others are right in saying that you'd have more than enough fundage to attempt multiple synths instead of blowing everything you have into just ONE attempt. By the way, if you buy everything from NPC and average in the cost of the board, it costs 148,500 meseta to synth a nine-star weapon. That's NOT a whole lot of money for anyone who's considering this level of equipment.

Now there are some issues I have with the current system, but we can't move on to address those until you get over this whine mode you're in because you failed a few Nightwalkers.

XDeviousX

Jul 18, 2007, 06:44 PM

On 2007-07-18 15:45, JAFO22000 wrote:
Wait, are you saying in your example that the 700 PA frags needed to get a 9* board to have a 90% chance of succeeding would only be a 1 time deal? Like, after that particular synth is done, your PM would revert back to pre-PA level, thus you'd have to obtain ANOTHER 700 PA frags for the next synth on that board to be 90%???

Panzer said it all...in the time it would take to amass that many PA frags (350 S2 missions, achieving S ranks on all of them!), you would make enough money to buy what you were trying to synth! Even lowballing the mission reward at 10,000/mission, after 350 missions you'd have 3.5 million....

Well, it wouldn't hit "zero" in the examply, but just to it's current %'s of the level your PA is raised to. The numbers could be modified and again you could suggest an alternative or modify the system yourself instead of arguing over how wrong an unworked theory on a solution is "flawed". Of coarse it was flawed, it was a basic suggestion to spark conversation/further idea or to spark new ideas.

Come up with a better idea, unless you think the current system is fine, if so, I have heard your contributions and they were appreciated but are now waisting space for further discussion. Not said in anger, but I'd like useful posts and not post that are counter productive to achieving a workable frame for a solution..

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-18 17:01 ]

XDeviousX

Jul 18, 2007, 06:49 PM

On 2007-07-18 16:19, Sekani wrote:

On 2007-07-18 13:56, XDeviousX wrote:
EXAMPLE:
You could just take the regular synth numbers and rely on the odds or you could increase your odds on that synth by some means. Someone suggested feeding your PM PA Frags. Lets just for argument shake say 20 frags = +1% to a designated synth, that means 100 frags = a 5% increase, thats a lot of work, time and effort for one synth. Lets also say that the synth rate for anything not automatically 100% is 90 so you still have a chance for failure but the odds are greater you won't. Taking the time to amass 700 PA frags to increase a synth rate from the current 55% for a 9* to 90% should mean the best POSSIBLE chance to get a success and although Failure would suck at that point, the chance of success and failure would still be in the hands of the person synthing. Not everyone would amass 700 PA frags everytime they synthed a weapon/armor/item. Also, just another random suggestion...

Well... WHY?! Why would anyone be so desperate to get a successful synth on a nine-star weapon? The boards and materials are all available from the NPC, you can synth them as many times as you want as long as you have meseta. Instead of amassing 700 PA frags, others are right in saying that you'd have more than enough fundage to attempt multiple synths instead of blowing everything you have into just ONE attempt. By the way, if you buy everything from NPC and average in the cost of the board, it costs 148,500 meseta to synth a nine-star weapon. That's NOT a whole lot of money for anyone who's considering this level of equipment.

Now there are some issues I have with the current system, but we can't move on to address those until you get over this whine mode you're in because you failed a few Nightwalkers.

You sir have not read any of my post. I never once whined about failing any synths. You should stop being a typical disrespectful message board "witty" poster and actually read what I said. How is me making a suggestion to a solution counter productive when you and others are only insulting other people's posts? You are a hypocrite and part of the problem. Please have a suggestion, or refine any system mentioned in other people's post in your next reply, along with your next ultra witty internet comment to try and insult me. I understand its easy to type rude comments to a faceless person, but it doesn't make you a better or smarter person, just petty...

Sekani

Jul 18, 2007, 07:30 PM

On 2007-07-18 16:49, XDeviousX wrote:

You sir have not read any of my post. I never once whined about failing any synths. You should stop being a typical disrespectful message board "witty" poster and actually read what I said. How is me making a suggestion to a solution counter productive when you and others are only insulting other people's posts? You are a hypocrite and part of the problem. Please have a suggestion, or refine any system mentioned in other people's post in your next reply, along with your next ultra witty internet comment to try and insult me. I understand its easy to type rude comments to a faceless person, but it doesn't make you a better or smarter person, just petty...

I'll continue to make "ultra witty internet comments" as much as I damn well please, cause that's how I roll. Deal with it.

Back on topic, if you aren't complaining about failing weapons, the tone of the majority of your previous posts (yes, I read them all) seems to contradict that. Judging from the replies you got it looks like I'm not the only one who came to that conclusion. Don't take that personally; when people make long drawn out "thoughts" like this it's very difficult to make sure that they're interpreted the way one intended them to be. This is when you take the opportunity to explain yourself better instead of saying that people can't or don't read.

Now assuming you read MY posts, you'd see that I have no problem with the synthing system when it comes to weapons. 55% sounds fine for a top-of-the-line weapon, especially since you get unlimited retries as long as you can afford them. The base rates for armor definitely need to be increased, since in this case the expense doesn't really justify the rewards. Event items are 100%, as they should be since there's a chance you'll never see another board for those again. S-ranks... 75% may be a little low, but it's not the end of the world if it fails.

Overall, I simply don't see a need for a way to artificially increase success rates especially since the issues I have can be solved by increasing the base rates.

As for the luck factor you don't seem to like... when it comes to getting the most powerful, most elite stuff, luck is the major factor in nearly all major MMOs. If everyone was guaranteed a way to get it, it would throw game balance off too much.

XDeviousX

Jul 18, 2007, 07:41 PM

On 2007-07-18 17:30, Sekani wrote:

On 2007-07-18 16:49, XDeviousX wrote:

You sir have not read any of my post. I never once whined about failing any synths. You should stop being a typical disrespectful message board "witty" poster and actually read what I said. How is me making a suggestion to a solution counter productive when you and others are only insulting other people's posts? You are a hypocrite and part of the problem. Please have a suggestion, or refine any system mentioned in other people's post in your next reply, along with your next ultra witty internet comment to try and insult me. I understand its easy to type rude comments to a faceless person, but it doesn't make you a better or smarter person, just petty...

I'll continue to make "ultra witty internet comments" as much as I damn well please, cause that's how I roll. Deal with it.

Back on topic, if you aren't complaining about failing weapons, the tone of the majority of your previous posts (yes, I read them all) seems to contradict that. Judging from the replies you got it looks like I'm not the only one who came to that conclusion. Don't take that personally; when people make long drawn out "thoughts" like this it's very difficult to make sure that they're interpreted the way one intended them to be. This is when you take the opportunity to explain yourself better instead of saying that people can't or don't read.

Now assuming you read MY posts, you'd see that I have no problem with the synthing system when it comes to weapons. 55% sounds fine for a top-of-the-line weapon, especially since you get unlimited retries as long as you can afford them. The base rates for armor definitely need to be increased, since in this case the expense doesn't really justify the rewards. Event items are 100%, as they should be since there's a chance you'll never see another board for those again. S-ranks... 75% may be a little low, but it's not the end of the world if it fails.

Overall, I simply don't see a need for a way to artificially increase success rates especially since the issues I have can be solved by increasing the base rates.

As for the luck factor you don't seem to like... when it comes to getting the most powerful, most elite stuff, luck is the major factor in nearly all major MMOs. If everyone was guaranteed a way to get it, it would throw game balance off too much.

lol, I never said you had to stop making witty comments, just that being rude to faceless people on the internet is easy to due. I make witty and rude comments from time to time myself, but to call me counter-productive for making a suggestion and saying I'm the reason we don't have people making suggestions is a bit funny.. (I'm making a suggestive post, you mad an insulting one, hmm)

Back on track though...

Synth rates are bad, period. I'd be ok with how low they were if I could effect them from synth to synth. Considering that both synthing success and in the case of melee weapons, elemental % is a crap shoot. One of those should be more controllable then the other... Armor definitely needs higher % rates...

Please make a suggestion to a solution. I'd like to hear some ideas...

jgar000

Jul 18, 2007, 07:49 PM

S ranks right now are really worthless because u can get a 9* and grind it to =S weapons. But when the s grinders come out they are going to have to put the board or the weapon in the shop because it will unbalance the game for those who cant find the s boards.

jgar000

Jul 18, 2007, 07:49 PM

jgar000

Jul 18, 2007, 07:49 PM

Sekani

Jul 18, 2007, 07:56 PM

On 2007-07-18 17:41, XDeviousX wrote:

Please make a suggestion to a solution. I'd like to hear some ideas...

In order to suggest a solution, a problem has to exist. Other than what I've already said above (armor), I see no problem. Several other people who have posted in this thread apparently see no problem as well, and I thought that we all explained why we see no problem. Whether you accept that explanation or not is your call.

Niloklives

Jul 18, 2007, 08:23 PM

as I said before, my issue is only when it comes to pure PMs vs impure PMs.

seriously if my pure had a 55% chance and my friend's 50/50 was only a 30% chance, I'd have a lot less to complain about.

But the OP has a point: This game is based on investing time and growth presumably proportionate to the time we invest. The synth system strays from that pattern and leaves us completely at the mercy of luck. I mean in a game where 90% of the elements are based of of how much effort you put into it, why can't the other 10% be?

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-07-18 18:26 ]

XDeviousX

Jul 18, 2007, 08:36 PM

On 2007-07-18 17:56, Sekani wrote:

On 2007-07-18 17:41, XDeviousX wrote:

Please make a suggestion to a solution. I'd like to hear some ideas...

In order to suggest a solution, a problem has to exist. Other than what I've already said above (armor), I see no problem. Several other people who have posted in this thread apparently see no problem as well, and I thought that we all explained why we see no problem. Whether you accept that explanation or not is your call.

Then if you don't think there is a problem why are you mucking up this topic? This is a topic for people that do not like the synthing system as it is now. I've heard all of your complaints/comments/replies, and since you have nothing new to add I would appreciate it (not sarcastically) if you would allow those of us who want to come up with viable solutions the opportunity to do so.

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-18 18:37 ]

Sekani

Jul 18, 2007, 08:46 PM

I have an opinion relative to this topic, so I posted in it. Just because I do not agree with your assessment of the synthing system does not mean that I am "mucking up" your thread.

If you can not deal with opinions that are counter to yours, do not post topics like this.

But by your request, I will no longer address any further comments to you. Have a nice day.

BloodDragoon

Jul 18, 2007, 08:50 PM

On 2007-07-18 18:36, XDeviousX wrote:

On 2007-07-18 17:56, Sekani wrote:

On 2007-07-18 17:41, XDeviousX wrote:

Please make a suggestion to a solution. I'd like to hear some ideas...

In order to suggest a solution, a problem has to exist. Other than what I've already said above (armor), I see no problem. Several other people who have posted in this thread apparently see no problem as well, and I thought that we all explained why we see no problem. Whether you accept that explanation or not is your call.

Then if you don't think there is a problem why are you mucking up this topic? This is a topic for people that do not like the synthing system as it is now. I've heard all of your complaints/comments/replies, and since you have nothing new to add I would appreciate it (not sarcastically) if you would allow those of us who want to come up with viable solutions the opportunity to do so.

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-18 18:37 ]

Having both sides of an argument or discussion present in most cases should stir the thought process of those that participate. People aren't pouring out suggestions because they don't have one they feel is worthy of posting. When there's a post showing a viable solution to the supposed problem which I don't think exists, I'll evaluate it and give input based upon my person experiences and thoughts. Why you ask? Because everything can use refinement or tweaking at times even if there isn't a problem to begin with.

XDeviousX

Jul 18, 2007, 09:37 PM

On 2007-07-18 18:50, BloodDragoon wrote:

Having both sides of an argument or discussion present in most cases should stir the thought process of those that participate. People aren't pouring out suggestions because they don't have one they feel is worthy of posting. When there's a post showing a viable solution to the supposed problem which I don't think exists, I'll evaluate it and give input based upon my person experiences and thoughts. Why you ask? Because everything can use refinement or tweaking at times even if there isn't a problem to begin with.

I agree with most of this reply, its well put together without being rude.

There are a lot of ideas floating around this post that could be refined if someone put effort into doing so. I think I'll try and come up with a viable solution and tweak it before I post it. I was hoping somebody would get inspired to refine one of the suggestions that I or others have made, or make a suggestion of their own, but I forgot about how message boards work for a sec...

panzer_unit

Jul 19, 2007, 08:28 AM

On 2007-07-18 18:23, NIloklives wrote:
seriously if my pure had a 55% chance and my friend's 50/50 was only a 30% chance, I'd have a lot less to complain about.

But the OP has a point: This game is based on investing time and growth presumably proportionate to the time we invest. The synth system strays from that pattern and leaves us completely at the mercy of luck. I mean in a game where 90% of the elements are based of of how much effort you put into it, why can't the other 10% be?

About PM's, everyone with a hybrid PM would be up the creek. Hybrids have to be usable for some kind of high-end equipment as well as being okay with noob gear that any half-leveled PM should be able to do. Pure PM's are WAY better on medium-high or really low chance items items... A-rank armor, 6-7* weapons, and (as far as I know) S-ranks. That small-looking bonus is either giving you a way better shot at making the thing (45% vs 30%) or cutting the chance of failure almost by half (80% vs 65%).

The whole equipment side of this game is luck related. Rare enemy spawns, rare boards, 44-50% weapons, grinds on weapons that don't come out so high... it's so people have to trade to get what they want. Unfortunately you have to get something ANYONE wants to get started on that treadmill.

Niloklives

Jul 19, 2007, 08:59 AM

why should hybrids be almost as good as pures? you have 4 slots for characters, 4 PMs, and 4 stats you can raise. if you want to synth you raise a PM for synthing. if you just want an NPC, you forgo synthing so you can be lazy. and since you can zero your PM, you can start over again if you change your mind. so why should a hybrid be of almost equal ability?

panzer_unit

Jul 19, 2007, 09:20 AM

1) hybrids AREN'T of almost equal ability generally... you're ignoring the part where I pointed out the strongest areas of advantage for pure PM's: powerful mid-level weapons, armor, and probably S-ranks. It's not like hybrid PMs make all that much better an NPC. They're just a hell of a lot less ugly IMO.
BTW: you wanting pures to have the same crap 9* rates they currently do and hybrids to drop to some super-failing synth rate is bitter and twisted. What did I ever do to you* to deserve such hate?

2) You've got 4 character slots so you can have 4 characters. Having to raise 4 pure PM's and switch characters all the time to make crap for yourself is weaksauce. Props to the people who do, of course, but leveling a PM isn't an accomplishment or anything. Congrats on having free time and being willing to spend meseta on making your dood better.

*such as can be proven to a jury beyond reasonable doubt

creativehope

Jul 19, 2007, 11:01 AM

Niloklives

Jul 19, 2007, 11:30 AM

it's a shame he never read anything I said, much like you likely never did. At least Panzer can comprihend what I'm saying whether or not he agrees. I swear you 360 elitists need to grow up

Mayu

Jul 19, 2007, 11:33 AM

Eeeep NUUUU NILOK!! <.<

~Runs and hides

Realmz

Jul 19, 2007, 11:47 AM

i think that if you really want some kind of thing for "pure PM's to be better then hybrids" then the synth trend of the PM should also up the percent of the synth based on the stats the PM has.

for a number sake lets say that a PM gets 150% of the points it has in it's Trends stat. lets take my PM with 80 strike and 20 ranged, she's got a strike synth trend, when she makes a strike item it would then read her strike stat as 120, raising the previous synth rate by 8% on the item.

just another idea

[ This Message was edited by: Realmz on 2007-07-19 09:49 ]

creativehope

Jul 19, 2007, 12:00 PM

lol, I am glad you said that. and unfortunately I am not very good on these forums otherwise I would have bolded the part that I felt was worth saying, and let me tell you it was not about which population does what because I already know that the 360 population does the same thing as the Pc/Ps2 when it comes to rares and the like.

First and foremost I did read what it was that you have written, and while I must say that it is a bit of a shame that you had to spend millions of meseta to get what it is that you have gotten, the point is that you have gotten it through the methods in which you claim are flawed, hell, I'm suprised you had millions of meseta to spend cause let me tell you, I have a hard time making it to 3 million let alone 10 million and or more. I also do think that it is a bit of a shame that all the hard work you put into making a pure pm means nothing in the long run, seeing as how that one hybrid Pm is just as capable of synthing those special weapons you are looking for on your 2 pure ones. also I have spent countless hours on this game and I was lucky enough to find the halp serafi, an Item in which a forteteher cant even use, thought about selling it then decided to make a new character who could use it. thats the one and only S rank I have found where as I know people who have at least 4 S rank weapons, So as far as S rank weapons dropping also know that the drop rate is horrible. All that aside the portion of Jafo's post that I thought was worth its time in type was simply this

-->When there is plenty of food to go around, people start complaining that the fois gras is too salty or the Beef Wellington was a bit overdone. When you don't have much food, people will respect that PBJ sandwich they get, even if the bread is a little old and they prefer creamy over crunchy, but don't complain!; at least you have something to eat.

in other words be happy with those 50% and the few 44% cause with all the synthing I've attempted and failed I have not made one weapon at or above 20% and the only armor I made was a 12% lightning Zeetline all the other ones I have failed, from the 1* to the 9*, So from what I am saying there is no 360 elitism here. only that you, being one of the lucky ones you claim not to be, should be happy that you have those 50% weapons and that armor that you did make cause I sure as hell havent made one decent armor yet.

Thank you for calling me an elitist though, I now know exactly how you feel about the 360 community

JAFO22000

Jul 19, 2007, 12:01 PM

On 2007-07-19 09:30, NIloklives wrote:
it's a shame he never read anything I said, much like you likely never did. At least Panzer can comprihend what I'm saying whether or not he agrees. I swear you 360 elitists need to grow up

Please don't attempt to flamebait me like you've been trying to do all thread long. I have read your posts and have replied to them. If you feel I'm a 360 "elitist", then I can accuse you of not reading my two posts where it is specifically stated that I am not trying to bash on the PC/PS2 community, rather I am making an observation about how each community differs.

Read Hikari's post about how some people just don't want to hear the truth.

XDeviousX

Jul 19, 2007, 12:18 PM

Synthing sucks on both platforms, whether you think PC/PS2 users are "spoiled" or not, I'm saying the system needs fixed, not that I need more stuff. If I really just wanted stuff for the sake of having all 50% gear and every S-Rank availible, I have more then enough extra cash in real life to pay some kid on ebay to get it. That is neither fun or challenging, and neither is the synthing system, it's flawed.

Like I said, I don't mind working to achieve my goals, in fact, I prefer it. I loved the S-Rank weapons in PSO more then any other's because you had to earn them in challenge mode, not find it randomly... I also like the "Deal with Black Paper" mission on PSOBB because even though the rare you got was random, it was hard work getting it...

Firebreak was a neat idea, but seeing as I only wanted the Garment Aura, I really didn't waist time getting the frying pan, not even to sell it. I am not a rare hungry I want PvP to show my e-peen type of guy, I am a person that likes to fail and succeed based on my own efforts and merits. There is no sense of accomplishment for me if a weapon fails or succeeds in it's synthing. I'm happy when it does succeed but I don't feel like it's an accomplishment. I probably won't even re-raise my PM if Sega doesn't restore it (I was bombed...) because synthing is now an after thought, it doesn't enhance gameplay or level any playing fields, its like a Casino in your room that you have to play to get S-Ranks and rare armors...

If synthing is going to be tedious they could allow it to be under our control a bit more. To everyone telling us the synthing system is fine, can you honestly say you feel good about the current system? Can you honestly say you don't think there is or might be a better system? What we debate here probably won't have an effect on ST changing the system, but debate and the exchange of ideas is never a loss, even if it is about a video game... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Who knows, maybe someone will come up with a good idea and ST will implement it into the game later on...

creativehope

Jul 19, 2007, 12:24 PM

I'll give you that, the synthing is not like I thought it would be. granted if it was more under our control in synthing weapons there would be more of a sense of accomplishment, but as it stands now if you happen to eventually get what it was that you were trying to accomplish in the first place, regardless of how long you had to endure, then my question is, did you really fail?

XDeviousX

Jul 19, 2007, 12:40 PM

On 2007-07-19 10:24, creativehope wrote:
I'll give you that, the synthing is not like I thought it would be. granted if it was more under our control in synthing weapons there would be more of a sense of accomplishment, but as it stands now if you happen to eventually get what it was that you were trying to accomplish in the first place, regardless of how long you had to endure, then my question is, did you really fail?

I like to work for what I want and not sit around hoping it comes out of a Cast's butt.. I understand the idea of why sege put synthing into the game, I don't think it was the best way to apply the idea. I'd rather not base so much luck on my gameplay and maybe thats my problem with PSU in general. You have to find the rare board by luck, find most of the material by luck/grinding out missions, you have to hope that the synth works, and you have to hope that the elemental % is decent so you can keep up with other players....

It's like that for armors and rare boards. After awhile it's no longer fun, even if you get what you wanted, you have no say in the outcome. I enjoy just building up my PA's and characters more then gaining weapons. I have a full stock of 9* weapons that I've bought or synthed and I usually just give them to friends, or sell the dirt cheap just because. I have nothing invested in any weapon or armor I own. I feel better about the stuff I buy more then the items I synth because I worked hard for my money...

I hate to be one of those people, but in PSO when you found a red box you got a happy feeling knowing you were going to get a random rare with a random % and although it wasn't a huge since of accomplishment for most rare drops, it was still not as bad as rares in PSU. I swear when I find a board now I feel like making a shotgun-sandwich and biting down hard on the barrel...

Give me a challenge or an obstacle to overcome, and he means to take my destiny into my own hands when I play a game. I felt good about FFXI's guild system because I had a hand in raising it through trial and error. To be honest, just feeding a PM to raise it's synth stat was a horrible idea to me, and even my suggestion of feeding it PA Frags seemed a bit ho-hum except for the work involved in getting the frags...

Can anyone say the happiness they get when they find a board doesn't turn into dread when they realize they have to synth it???

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-19 10:43 ]

panzer_unit

Jul 19, 2007, 01:00 PM

The reason I went with a hybrid to start with was a rumor that they had a 10% bonus to synthesize the weapon type they use... so 420-series would break about even or come out ahead (5%) for producing twin claws, knuckles, spears, or axes, and meanwhile you'd have ~40 levels to spend elsewhere. It's also why I thought swords had that 5% synth penalty, it's just a speedbump in the way of the 10% bonus a 410-series PM could have.

Anyway that turned out to be BS... but I'm still pretty happy with the A-rank rates on my 60 strike PM hovering around 50%. When I was trying to mass produce 6*'s for grinding rather than jumping straight to super-expensive and not-much-better 8*'s the 67% success rate sucked endlessly.

Kion

Jul 19, 2007, 01:10 PM

On 2007-07-19 10:40, XDeviousX wrote:

Can anyone say the happiness they get when they find a board doesn't turn into dread when they realize they have to synth it???

I really like the uncerainty factor as it is. The grinding desk is a major adrenaline rush trying to decide when to stop or to keep going. It makes seeing the words "updrage complete" at +10 all the more satisfying. And failing or breaking anything? I like that too. There's a kind of courage invovled with sucking it up and going to hunt some more.

Overall though, I don't see the need to have all 50%, S ranks, level 30 PA's,or to "keep up with other players", I simply take the game at my own pace and it's fun that way.

SolomonGrundy

Jul 19, 2007, 01:12 PM

I think there are 2 issues:

1. synthing is an all or nothing enterprise. Spending 165K on a board, and taking the time to earn the vulcaline, and other materials, and then getting a single 16% 9* and 2 dimates is disheartening.

- Panzer said something unbeliveable to me. he said he DIDN'T like the idea of being given a lower * item if the synthesis failed, because he has a full palette of 8* I think this statement alone is pretty teling in the difference in the economies.

2. S rank synthing is horrifyingly broken. Getting a board to drop is difficult, getting the materials is expensive (there are no svaltus edges on sale on the 306 or less than 10,000,000 for example), and to have a 52% rate of success (svaltus sword example).

- not to mention it's likely that even if successful, you'll get an 10-18% sword

- and again, this makes my specific issue that synthing favors the lucky too much.

Now, I don't care of the drop rates in PSO were harder, or easier, but when the rare dropped, it wasn't useless. A 0% chainsawd was still better than any 9* out there. Psycho wand didn't just look cool, it had a special power (RA tech boost, HP replaced 1/2 casting cost). S rank armor had DOUBLE the DFP of A rank armor. Or they had great resistances (25% Dark for Brightness circle).

in PSU, a poor % weapon (since weapons effectively have no specials), is easily replaced by a moderate percentace weapon a few *'s lower. Poor % armor is even worse. The fact that techers run around with 4* ageha-senba instead of 8* or 9* armor is a testament to how silly that part of it is.

JAFO22000

Jul 19, 2007, 01:24 PM

We can argue the point all day and come up with ways to improve the system. For example:

Suppose each board, 1-9*, has a BASE completion percentage on it. (1* 100%, 2* 97%, 3* 94%, 4* 91%, 5* 88%, 6* 85%, 7* 82%, 8* 79%, 9* 76% for illustrative purposes).

Now, your PM's success rate would depend on how you raise it:

Example 1: If it has all 100 level points in Striking, then it will get 100% of the completion percentage for each board. However, it will have ZERO chance to synth any armor, tech or ranged items, as each level for these would be 0.

Say you raise a PM to level 80 Striking and level 20 Tech. You would then get 80% of the completion percentage of each striking board and 20% of the completion percentage for tech boards. This PM would have ZERO chance of making armor or ranged items, as it would have level 0 for these catagories

Using the above guide as an example, a 9* Melee weapon board has a completion percentage of 76%. If synthed on a Pure Striking PM (all 100 points spent on Striking), then the completion percentage would be 100% of 76, or 76%. If you synth the same board on the 80Striking/20Tech PM, the completion percentage would change to 80% of the same 76, or about 61%.

I just came up with this off of the top of my head and it is a solution to help those who "worked hard" to raise their pure PM's, but the core problem would still remain: There is STILL and element of luck involved. Only now, it's on a higher level. Something like this may even infuriate you more, as you would now have put in the work to obtain a high level synthing PM, so when it failed 2 or 3 synths in a row, it would seem even more worse (You don't complain as much when you fail an armor with 37% chance as you do when you fail a weapon with 86% chance, right?).

Anyway, I don't know. The system is the way it is. Again, as your title reflects, I don't feel "punished" for synthing A ranks. I know the risks involoved.

panzer_unit

Jul 19, 2007, 01:30 PM

On 2007-07-19 11:12, SolomonGrundy wrote:
- Panzer said something unbeliveable to me. he said he DIDN'T like the idea of being given a lower * item if the synthesis failed, because he has a full palette of 8* I think this statement alone is pretty teling in the difference in the economies.

2. S rank synthing is horrifyingly broken. Getting a board to drop is difficult, getting the materials is expensive (there are no svaltus edges on sale on the 306 or less than 10,000,000 for example), and to have a 52% rate of success (svaltus sword example).

1. actually I don't have a full set of 8*'s... they're 6*+6 and 7*+4, but you get the point. You should have developed a solid arsenal like that where your only choices to really improve are going for obnoxious grinds (not likely), obnoxious percents (just as bad), or the same reasonably attainable crap on 9* weapons (not great odds, but still the best deal going)... and that's what ST figures you're going to be doing for the rest of your PSU career, so pardon them if they make it take a while. I agree to a point that the game's geared for people with way-longer-than-average attention spans, but being one of those people I can see some sense in it where a lot of folks are like WTF.

2. Svaltus Sword isn't anywhere in the same league as brand-name S-ranks... Huge Cutter, etc. 500+ PP? 600+ on Bil De Axe? Regen rate advantages too, if it's anything like Vahra Claws. They're off the charts compared to other S-ranks, and oh look there's that cranky 50-50 synth rate that 9* weapons have so you're not reaching for the reset button if you've got a hybrid PM.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-07-19 12:01 ]

Niloklives

Jul 19, 2007, 01:47 PM

On 2007-07-19 10:01, JAFO22000 wrote:

On 2007-07-19 09:30, NIloklives wrote:
it's a shame he never read anything I said, much like you likely never did. At least Panzer can comprihend what I'm saying whether or not he agrees. I swear you 360 elitists need to grow up

Please don't attempt to flamebait me like you've been trying to do all thread long. I have read your posts and have replied to them. If you feel I'm a 360 "elitist", then I can accuse you of not reading my two posts where it is specifically stated that I am not trying to bash on the PC/PS2 community, rather I am making an observation about how each community differs.

Read Hikari's post about how some people just don't want to hear the truth.

Saying we're spoiled and then telling me flat out that you think I'm stupid multiple times and then saying you're not attacking me or other PS2/PC players? seriously...give me a little more credit than that. if you really were NOT trying to attack anyone, how about starting by retracting those comments. I read what Hikari had to say and I've seen this thing from both sides as I used to think the synthing system was just fine myself for a long time. But the more I played with it and the more I saw the imbalances I've tried to point out time and time again, the more I saw how little influence the game gives you and just how little of this game is based on skill, the more I felt this little romance so many of you seem to have with this game die.

To briefly clarify something: I do not think that all 360 users are elitists. far from it. but just as there are PS2/PC users who have some seriously over inflated egos about our servers, the same can be said for the 360 community. My statement was NOT directed at all 360 users, but simply the ones that feel because their experiences have been in some cases arguably more of a struggle, it somehow makes them superior to their neighboring community. I believe that both servers are equal, and I very much enjoy sharing experiences with everyone at PSOW, not just the people I share a server with.

*sigh* that said, Jafo, you seems to have toned yourself down a bit since your first few statements. rereading the last few things you've said you don't seem NEARLY as hostile as you did from the beginning. So to both you and creativehope, I whole heartedly retract my last statement and offer my most sincere apologies. However I ask that in the future when you address people you try to give them the benefit of the doubt as you come off as more than a bit overbearing at times.

If you feel the system is fine and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you seem to be focused on my statement regarding high % weapons and not on the entirety of my experiences with said system. The %s were meant to illustrate an aspect of balance. That luck in this game seems a bit skewed and that high %s are one of the areas that could use work.

Drop rates, grinding, many aspects of this game irk me. In fact just yesterday I had a friend mail me and say that out of 5 9* weapons that made it to +9, 4 made it to +10. now while that sounds pretty normal in terms of the chances the game game projects for success, I've gotten 7 weapons to +9 and using +10 grinders had ALL of them break. of all the A ranks I've gotten to +9 only two have gotten to +10.

Now before I continue, i am well aware that we PS2/PC users are fortunate enough (in a way) to even be able to attempt stuff like this and we should not look a gift horse in the mouth. but I feel that this extra money has done some odd things for us which I'll discuss in further detail momentarily.

In regards to my own experiences in grinding: Unlucky? sure, i can accept that to a degree, but it just baffles me that some people seem particularly lucky in certain areas, some of us get piles of high % elemental armor, some of us its weapons, some of us it's grinding, SOME of us it's rare monsters, and some of us it's drops. For a chosen few of us, it's a mixture. But then others have none of these things going for them and we seem to be left at the mercy of this game's constantly churning algorithms, hoping to catch a break, and I have to say, it's extremely disenchanting.

So what has all this haxeta done for the community on the PS2/PC servers? well, it's severly damaged our economy and shown many a gamer's true nature when it comes to money and a sense of togetherness. I can't tell you enough how many times I've gone off searching player shops for cheap synth mats and found shops boating low prices only to see kerseline going for 100k. and these same people end their ads with "buy something please!" i go into these rooms praying the player in in house so I can promptly respond to the heinous prices and mockery of an ad with "not on your life"

The extra money however HAS allowed for a mixed blessing. while it has flooded the servers with high grinded weapons, high % weapons and admittedly many a spoiled gamer, it has also allowed many of us to experiment with the various systems in the game and better try to understand what exactly ST has given us. Frankly, in many cases, I'm not impressed.

I've hunted blackhearts, skill saves, grinna decos, SPSes, HPCs, crea doubles, you name it, i've hunted for it and each one for weeks on end. yet to this day the rare drops I've seen -period-, i can count on one hand. and none of them can I say have been allocated to me.

Because of my severe lack of luck in this game, I resorted to the one thing I even have a slight chance at luck with: Weapon synthing. I saw that people were fascinated with high % weapons and while I was meeting new players who'd in turn met people intending to quit and unloading their items, I was still fending for myself. and to this day, hundreds of millions spent, 4 pure PMs, still with 60 million to my name and over 2500 active hours logged, i've 2 9* +10s and some high % weapons to show for it.

I've invested a lot of time and energy into this game and I do my best not to complain about how fortune seems to be very much against me. So as someone who's put so much into a game that I actively pay money for, forgive me for wanting to see something in return on rare occasion.

My argument here has always been a simple one: I want a sense of balance in the game. something to reflect the time we put into it. Something that lets us EARN some of the things we want rather than just grind until the game decides to bless us. I look at synthing not as a person who wants a palette full of 50%s, not a person who wants gold boxes next to my weapons and armor; but as a person who has seen its flaws for what they are.

I know better than most people "the way it is." But I know something is off...and I know it can be balanced. I want to believe some of that would come from finding a way to better reflect the time we put into something and a level of personal skill. Whether you see it that way or not, is based of your own experiences and I would never attempt to take those away from you. But I would very much like to try to think of a way for us all to enjoy this game just a little bit more.

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-07-19 12:04 ]

JAFO22000

Jul 19, 2007, 02:31 PM

Wow. Reading your post makes me believe that you have no idea what is actually going on over on the 360 servers. You say you have "only" 2 9*'s grinded to +10. I don't have any of my 3 9* weapons grinded, even once, for fear of having one break and having to retry a synth on it. Seriously, reading your post was like watching that wretched "sweet 16 birthday party" show on MTV; you know, the one where all the rich kids start complaining because their parents didn't buy them a $195,000 car or they didn't get Ludacris to perform at their $60,000 party??

Again, if this comes off as "elitist" to you, then so be it. I'm just trying to give you a prospective on what it's like to synth without an inflated economy. It's pretty much working how ST probably planned it: A good amount of 6*-8* weapons, a fair amount of 9* weapons and fewer 10* weapons.

I seriously meant no attack to you when I called you "spoiled" or "stupid", but walk like a duck....I mean, you even refer to "many a gamer" on your servers as spoiled (excluding yourself, of course!) and as to my "stupid" reference, I just stated that anyone who KNEW that a pure PM would only have a slightly better chance of synthing items than a hybrid and yet complains that their pure PM only has a slightly better chance of synthing items than a hybrid is not very bright. Pretty much anyone who frequents this sight should have known this information. You found out how to make your PM pure, therefore I'm pretty sure you would've also researched that it would only have a slightly better chance of success. If you didn't know this, then I apologize but recommend that you do more research before performing a task like raising a pure PM which takes so much "Time, effort, money and commitment" from you.

According to you and the OP, I keep hearing that you have all the weapons you could want at the moment....if that's the case, why the complaint? The OP's original complaint was about failing 8 of 9 Buccaneers. If he has all of the 9*'s he needs, why is he synthing? To "keep up with the Joneses"? To sell at an inflated profit? I'm not sure. I really don't even think I can buy 3 Buccaneer boards right now, much less have/buy the materials to attempt 9 synths of them, so excuse me if I'm not sympathetic to his complaint. Again, the differing economies play a BIG role in this. If you see most of the people who aren't sympathetic towards your pleas are those on the 360 or those on the PC/PS2 who didn't partake in the inflated market (as creativehope is, I assume).

SolomonGrundy

Jul 19, 2007, 02:48 PM

1. actually I don't have a full set of 8*'s... they're 6*+6 and 7*+4, but you get the point. You should have developed a solid arsenal like that where your only choices to really improve are going for obnoxious grinds (not likely), obnoxious percents (just as bad), or the same reasonably attainable crap on 9* weapons (not great odds, but still the best deal going)... and that's what ST figures you're going to be doing for the rest of your PSU career, so pardon them if they make it take a while. I agree to a point that the game's geared for people with way-longer-than-average attention spans, but being one of those people I can see some sense in it where a lot of folks are like WTF.

I have no elemental 7*'s grinded beyond 1 - the cost of replacing them is too high. I have no B rank elemental %s grinded beyond 4. And even them we are only talking about yohemi swords, which get large ATP/PP gains in the first few grinds.

The point I think you missed, is that I would rather get *something* out of a 'failed' synth that I could sell (even if it was to the NPCs), than an agtaride.

2600 hours into the game, btw.

Niloklives

Jul 19, 2007, 02:48 PM

And here come the attacks again. I even said i was sorry for making assumptions and getting upset and you do it yet again.

I've been playing since january, I joined PSOW when? I got all my info from other users or trial and error. not from guides and whatever else.

and once again, you missed the entire point of my post the "only" was in relation to how many i've attempted. it was not meant to say that I felt I need more. But at a roughly 70% success rate, if I make say 10 attempts...I should end up with around 7 successes. NOT 2. But you continue to twist my words and read only what you want to read.

I said I'm well aware of what the hacked money has done and what it means to be able to even attempt as many synths and grinds as we have. But of course you've already pinned me as some spoiled moron and refuse to understand this from the perspective of someone who's been able to see the game's capacity for simulating probability in action. do I NEED more than 2 9* guns at +10? hell I don't need two 7* at +1. but if I make 10 or 20 attempts at something with a 70% chance of success and only two come out, we have a problem. this is NOT about necessity, it's about a faulty system. stop looking at it as though some spoiled bourgeois fool who just wants more than they've already been given and try to understand that I'm saying what I say because whether I NEED these things or not, I've followed the map, walked the path and rather than coming to the end, I was forced along a detour that has me very near the beginning, when I KNOW no mistakes were made on MY part.

Now I'm asking you to address my posts in full or not at all.

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-07-19 12:50 ]

SolomonGrundy

Jul 19, 2007, 02:55 PM

but if I make 10 or 20 attempts at something with a 70% chance of success and only two come out, we have a problem

no, what you have is an annoyance, what WE have is a problem. I failed 9/12 7* with a 67% chance of success. that set me so far back in meseta and raw materials I am unable to synth any yohemi A rank gear for a long time 3*12...I'm out of ebon, and kerseline. The money I could have made back selling the lower percentage asami-zashi's (even at GREAT prices), would have been to replace some of that. And I simply cannot afford to go buy it.

Niloklives

Jul 19, 2007, 03:03 PM

grundy the WE I was reffering to was ALL of us. yes I can afford to fail as many times as I have, but it doesn't make those failures any less apparent. I have never once said PS2 had it bad and 360 had it easy. or that my experiences were not shared by others. i have since the very beginning been trying to illustrate how little of thi sgame is based on skill and how much is based on random number generators. I'm not saying I have it worse or better than anyone, just that I know things are screwed up.

PLEASE don't turn this into a console war or an "us vs them" thing. if you've attempted 9 of anything, i've attempted 90 and my results have been no better than yours. I know how you feel and if I could do something to help you I would. rather than say "yeah but at least you still have money" which is NOT what this is about, lets all agree, "this current system needs a lot of work" and go from there.

JAFO22000

Jul 19, 2007, 03:09 PM

On 2007-07-19 12:48, NIloklives wrote:
And here come the attacks again. I even said i was sorry for making assumptions and getting upset and you do it yet again.

Sorry if I hurt your e-feelings. Not my intent, but you seem to be sensitive to that kind of stuff.

I've been playing since january, I joined PSOW when? I got all my info from other users or trial and error. not from guides and whatever else.

Again, ignorance is no excuse. If you got all of your info from users, then it's YOUR FAULT for believing false information. I can't apologize for somone who gave you erroneous info. You decided to trust them. If they told you that a pure PM would be leaps and bounds better than a hybrid one and you trusted them, then that's how it is. You know better now, at least.

and once again, you missed the entire point of my post the "only" was in relation to how many i've attempted. it was not meant to say that I felt I need more. But at a roughly 70% success rate, if I make say 10 attempts...I should end up with around 7 successes. NOT 2. But you continue to twist my words and read only what you want to read.

No, your AVERAGE should be 7 makes. It's possible that you end up with 2 makes. It's possible that you end up with all 10. You see 70% and are EXPECTING 7 of 10 each time, that's your problem.

I said I'm well aware of what the hacked money has done and what it means to be able to even attempt as many synths and grinds as we have. But of course you've already pinned me as some spoiled moron and refuse to understand this from the perspective of someone who's been able to see the game's capacity for simulating probability in action. do I NEED more than 2 9* guns at +10? hell I don't need two 7* at +1. but if I make 10 or 20 attempts at something with a 70% chance of success and only two come out, we have a problem. this is NOT about necessity, it's about a faulty system. stop looking at it as though some spoiled bourgeois fool who just wants more than they've already been given and try to understand that I'm saying what I say because whether I NEED these things or not, I've followed the map, walked the path and rather than coming to the end, I was forced along a detour that has me very near the beginning, when I KNOW no mistakes were made on MY part.

If you don't NEED them gridned +10, then why did you attempt to get them grinded to +10? Everyone knows...wait a minute, maybe you don't know: Grinding from +9 to +10 is NOT a 70% chance...and if you were talking about something else being a 70% chance, again you are EXPECTING 7 of 10 successes each time. That is NOT how it works.

Now I'm asking you to address my posts in full or not at all.

I tried to address everything in your previous post here. Excuse me for not addressing your other post in full, but understand that it was about half a page long and I really don't have much time to dissect each little detail of each of your posts. I really only decide which statements made I want to reply to. Other people tend not to read posts that quote EVERY SINGLE SENTENCE of someone else's long post because the reply ends up being WAYYYY too long. I'm not "conveniently" editing out what I don't want to reply to, rather I am only arguing points I feel need to be addressed. If you made a point that you'd like me to address, please PM me or post something which asks how I fell about it.

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-07-19 12:50 ]
[/quote]

creativehope

Jul 19, 2007, 03:13 PM

Nah I am also on the 360, but all that aside all I am simply saying is that the op was griping about the synth rate of items in which he already has, as if he is not happy with what he has made. I wish I had a pallete full of 9*'s right now my main carries 14 weapons (which is a lot for a techer if I am not mistaken) and is dealing with two 8* including a bow5 7*s including a tengoug bow (yes I use the tengoug bow) and a kikami the rest are 5* and below and only my 5* bow is grinded. and also one 8* and two 7*'s were gifts from friends in which they have bought by pooling money together. (its something that my group of friends do for one another from time to time)

And while I wouldnt call the pc/ps2 community spoiled i would say that the op and NIloklives are more privileged than most in the world of Psu.

JAFO22000

Jul 19, 2007, 03:20 PM

On 2007-07-19 13:13, creativehope wrote:
Nah I am also on the 360, but all that aside all I am simply saying is that the op was griping about the synth rate of items in which he already has, as if he is not happy with what he has made. I wish I had a pallete full of 9*'s right now my main carries 14 weapons (which is a lot for a techer if I am not mistaken) and is dealing with two 8* including a bow5 7*s including a tengoug bow (yes I use the tengoug bow) and a kikami the rest are 5* and below and only my 5* bow is grinded. and also one 8* and two 7*'s were gifts from friends in which they have bought by pooling money together. (its something that my group of friends do for one another from time to time)

And while I wouldnt call the pc/ps2 community spoiled i would say that the op and NIloklives are more privileged than most in the world of Psu.

You don't GET IT!!! It's NOT about the fact that they have all the weapons they could want, and then some. It's that they can't make THEIR SHARE of MORE weapons that they don't need!!

Niloklives

Jul 19, 2007, 03:37 PM

using a +10 grinder on an A rank weapon gives you a "high chance of success" this is clearly more than 50/50 and less than "very high" it's safe to assume that the probability is somewhere AROUND 70% and according to GUIDES it's 70%.

yes, the average should be 70%. but lets look at it this way:

I've attempted quite literally about 300 grinds where the chances of success were "high". That is to say a fair deal above 50/50. now even with bad luck, it's s safe bet that 50% of these should make it with that many attempts. however I've had less than 30% of those attempts result in successes. now as I said this is all presumably bad luck, but I feel that results like these are very frustrating. I feel that the game is TOO driven off of luck and does very little to favor those with skill.

WHY do I grind and synth when I don't need to? because Luck has not been on my side for any OTHER aspect of the game. I don't know how it is on the 360, but on the PS2/PC side I know of many people with multiple S rank weapons, NONE of which are the ones that were hacked so long ago so I know what they have are legitimate. I have yet to find ANYTHING despite my most earnest efforts. So I synth and grind in attepts to get things others consider to be of trade value so I might be able to beat some of these other odds even in the slightest.

In regards to this issue you have with my arguments pertaining to PMs and synth rates: this is not about me not knowing at the time, this is not about it being my fault for not raising a different kind of PM. To me this is about something I've come to discover through my experience that I feel was shortsighted on the part of the developers.

I read your idea about rate percentages and despite the fact that you had only come up with it at that moment, I felt it made better use of the leveling system. would if fix everything? you'd have to be dense to think so, but It would leave me with one less thing to find fault in. as I said it's not about how good my chances are, it's about how seemingly worthless raising PMs becomes at later stages in the game.

[ This Message was edited by: NIloklives on 2007-07-19 13:38 ]

creativehope

Jul 19, 2007, 03:50 PM

okay so maybe I didnt read in between the lines as far as what they wanted, if that is what they want that is. The reasons behind why NIloklives and Devious want to make more of the same weapons i could care less about. for me its the simple fact that they do want to make more of the same weapons. If they want to make them then that is all well and good, however in the end if this synthing system has gotten you what you have, and like Devious stated earlier, he has a pallete of 9* weapons, then why is it the given situation is bad now, if its gotten you this far I am sure that it will give you more if you keep at it. i it makes you feel good knowing that you have 20 odd something weapons synth and they all grinded to 10 then great, more power to you, but at the same time this all has to come at a price, at which you must be more than willing to pay seeing as how you failed then tried again, and that price unfortunately is that hard work, time, money, energy, and everything else you put into the game and weapons synthing when you do so

So to you Jafo I apologize if I seem a tad bit/ very naive to the whole topic at hand and/or whats behind it. but imho I feel that no matter how flawed said named system is, the simple fact that it has gotten you this full pallete, or what ever it has gotten you, it works, it may seem broken as of now, but because you have what you have it has proven that it still works. and if you cant seem to get a weapon synth or anything, well then why not make friends. I mean we have this community for that in the first place right. to get to know people and such. If for some reason you cant synth anything, talk to one of the people on your p-card list that can.

panzer_unit

Jul 19, 2007, 03:57 PM

On 2007-07-19 13:37, NIloklives wrote:
I've attempted quite literally about 300 grinds where the chances of success were "high". That is to say a fair deal above 50/50. now even with bad luck, it's s safe bet that 50% of these should make it with that many attempts.

What do you mean by "make it"... survive a single high-chance grind or make the sprint to +10?

Suppose getting through one High grind with the weapon intact = 70% chance
Two high grinds = 49% total chance (uh-oh!)
Four high grinds (e.g. +6 to +10) = 24% total chance (virtually throwing it away)

JAFO22000

Jul 19, 2007, 04:02 PM

On 2007-07-19 13:37, NIloklives wrote:
using a +10 grinder on an A rank weapon gives you a "high chance of success" this is clearly more than 50/50 and less than "very high" it's safe to assume that the probability is somewhere AROUND 70% and according to GUIDES it's 70%.

My fault. I've never grinded from 9 to 10 on an A rank weapon with an A+10 grinder. I assumed it wouldn't be a 70% chance, so egg on my face!

yes, the average should be 70%. but lets look at it this way:

I've attempted quite literally about 300 grinds where the chances of success were "high". That is to say a fair deal above 50/50. now even with bad luck, it's s safe bet that 50% of these should make it with that many attempts. however I've had less than 30% of those attempts result in successes. now as I said this is all presumably bad luck, but I feel that results like these are very frustrating. I feel that the game is TOO driven off of luck and does very little to favor those with skill.

I too agree that luck is a big part of this game. Perhaps I'm jaded and ignorant because this is the only Online RPG I have ever played (besides PSO!), but aren't all of them like that? I feel my skill comes in during missions; complete them with an S rank and you'll be rewarded more meseta, which can lead to more synths and the quicker and more efficiently you can complete them, the more meseta you will get for the time you have played. This is something that all can control. Running S2 missions gives you a chance for those elusive S rank drops as well. Don't get discouraged: A friend and I ran mission after mission of RB S2 in search of a Uransara for me. Since it was released, we spent a majority of our time there. Took us a LONG time, but we finally were able to obtain one (thanks to Sekani for being so kind...it actually dropped to him, but he knew we were searching for it so he gave it up, no questions asked...when (if!) we find an S rank he can use, it will be his!).

WHY do I grind and synth when I don't need to? because Luck has not been on my side for any OTHER aspect of the game. I don't know how it is on the 360, but on the PS2/PC side I know of many people with multiple S rank weapons,

Again, not to be rude, but you are comparing your pallette to theirs.

NONE of which are the ones that were hacked so long ago so I know what they have are legitimate.

Don't be too surprised, but PC/PS2 servers are still being hacked...it's just that it's on a smaller scale now!

I have yet to find ANYTHING despite my most earnest efforts.

Again, join the club!! I have found so much juck that I've come to believe there are hidden Section ID's, and that I'm a "Crapboze"!

So I synth and grind in attepts to get things others consider to be of trade value so I might be able to beat some of these other odds even in the slightest.

You are trying to keep up with the Joneses! But a lot of the "Joneses" aren't playing by the same rules you are....

In regards to this issue you have with my arguments pertaining to PMs and synth rates: this is not about me not knowing at the time, this is not about it being my fault for not raising a different kind of PM. To me this is about something I've come to discover through my experience that I feel was shortsighted on the part of the developers.

...and I feel that the system has minor flaws, but is still serviceable.

I read your idea about rate percentages and despite the fact that you had only come up with it at that moment, I felt it made better use of the leveling system. would if fix everything? you'd have to be dense to think so, but It would leave me with one less thing to find fault in. as I said it's not about how good my chances are, it's about how seemingly worthless raising PMs becomes at later stages in the game.

I just came up with that to show that, no matter what system (except one that allows 100% synths, all the time), there will still be an opportunity for let down. If you had a 90% chance of going from +9 to +10 grinds and you STILL failed 8 out of 10 of those, would you not still be as upset, if not MORE?

XDeviousX

Jul 19, 2007, 05:41 PM

On 2007-07-19 13:20, JAFO22000 wrote:

On 2007-07-19 13:13, creativehope wrote:
Nah I am also on the 360, but all that aside all I am simply saying is that the op was griping about the synth rate of items in which he already has, as if he is not happy with what he has made. I wish I had a pallete full of 9*'s right now my main carries 14 weapons (which is a lot for a techer if I am not mistaken) and is dealing with two 8* including a bow5 7*s including a tengoug bow (yes I use the tengoug bow) and a kikami the rest are 5* and below and only my 5* bow is grinded. and also one 8* and two 7*'s were gifts from friends in which they have bought by pooling money together. (its something that my group of friends do for one another from time to time)

And while I wouldnt call the pc/ps2 community spoiled i would say that the op and NIloklives are more privileged than most in the world of Psu.

You don't GET IT!!! It's NOT about the fact that they have all the weapons they could want, and then some. It's that they can't make THEIR SHARE of MORE weapons that they don't need!!

You are ignorant,period. Don't put words in my mouth and don't act like your a victim in this post. You have insulted people left and right and I haven't once type a single insulting sentence your way, until now. My point is synthing isn't fun, constructive, or done right. I have given money, weapons, scape dolls, and free advice to players. I do not wish to gain anything I didn't work for, I just want the chance to work for it, and while you think its funny, or cute, to sit back and lob insults thinly veiled as "harmless" replies, it has mucked up this thread with post by people trying to defend their position instead of being productive. You all but agree the system sucks, universally, but it seems like you don't want it fixed because in your mind it means other people will have more and better stuff then you. You have zero right to act like you know how I feel, what my motives are, and where I'm coming from. If you can't take what I post at face value and need to read into my posts for your own agenda then it is pointless to try and debate with you or even try to have you help with a solution. I'll ignore you from now on or just message you my displeasure to not add to the flame on this post. Don't act like you haven't lobbed insulting posts my way because I could be petty and take the time to quote each and every last time you did, until now I ignored it, but enough is enough. If you cannot stick to debating people's posts on their own merit then I have no respect for you or your point. Stick to the issues and not my personal character that you know nothing about...

You people are stuck on whose platform has what and being jealous of each other's communities/items/levels/etc.

Coming up with a good synthing system could help everyone on both platforms but it seems some people don't want it fixed for fear some people will gain an even bigger advantage then them, or get even more stuff then they have. Boo frickin hoo! I cannot help the fact that the PC/PS2 community had hacked mesta/weapons. It's not like everyone here is rich, but everyone prices things like everyone is. There are problems in both communities. Put your "e-envy" aside and see that this issue might effect everyone equally, whether it's worked in to their advantage or not.

I've given people weapons because they've gone broke from trying to synth basic weapons so they could complete a run without dying or taking 2 hours. If I never get another synth out of my PM it's already done its job for me, but I know people right now that have gone bust on this flawed system and I can't bail everyone of them out, nor would I want to bail everyone out if I could. I'm tired of this. I hope this thread gets locked and that you all go broke trying to synth stuff as I live fat and happy on the PS2/PC community with a lot of cash and a full inventory of good weapons for ALL on my characters and units/armor... (Since I'm so selfish I'll worry about myself now...) [/rant]

[ This Message was edited by: XDeviousX on 2007-07-19 15:45 ]