Karen Erra

[Wowbagger]

I was playing through PSU again and I noticed that Pete said that Karen was raised by the Shidow family. If she was raised by them, how is it that her last name is "Erra"?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Wowbagger on 2007-08-25 11:23 ]</font>

[Rashiid]

i can be raised from a pack of wolves; does that make me a wolf?

[DAMASCUS]

Shidow would be more of a clan or class type. So she could be Karen 'The Killer Shidow' Erra.

[_Wolf_]

I'm a wolf raised by a pack of beasts which in turn were created by humans does that make me human? no it makes me an outcast v_v

[Gryffin]

Her parents died, perhaps?

[BanF]

Logic suggests she'd have been given the Shidow name to help her cope and feel accepted.

Logic has seldom much to do with Japanese storylines, specially in these kind of RPGs.

[DurakkenX]

As far as I have looked into it there is no reason for it... It hasn't been said in the first 4 chapters and i don't remember them ever saying it in the next several chapters...

[landman]

Every time I see Erra my eyes bleed, in my language Erra (oficial translation) is pronounced very different from Era (original Japanese pronunciation)

[Sinue_v2]

Karen's last name is neither Erra or Shidow.

It's Mikuna

How and why she chose "Erra" isn't explained. Though in the very mission in which you find out that she and Maya are "sisters", it's explained that Karen's mother was killed by Tengougs when she was still very young, while fleeing from her father who wanted to kill her in order to make Mirei's powers stronger and ensure that she would be the next Divine Maiden. The Shidow family found and adopted her as their own.

[Anduril]

Could be that her mother before fleeing with her created some kind of false documentation for her under the name of Karen Erra. But that's just a thought.

[Sinue_v2]

Doubtful. I think she more or less was oblivious to what was going on, and when she found out - just snatched up Karen and ran. If she had time to prepare proper documents, why haul ass though Tengoug infested woods? If she thought through the plan that much, why not think through it a bit more and find a safer route.

[SStrikerR]

i hope karen dies during one of her maiden-thingies

[CrimsomWolf]

Wasn't Karen's original name Kuyuh Mikuna or somethin'?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CrimsomWolf on 2007-08-26 13:31 ]</font>

[A2K]

Erra might be the Neudaiz equivalent of "Doe" (as in Jane) even. Pure speculation though, just tossing that out there.

[Mortisx3]

On 2007-08-25 11:28, Rashiid wrote:
i can be raised from a pack of wolves; does that make me a wolf?


Of course not, it makes you a Were-wolf....

[Mikaga]

Given that her surname came from nowhere, is it not possible that her forename was originally not "Karen" too?

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Willing suspension of disbelief.

[zandra117]

Maybe when the Shidow family found her she could only remember her first name. "Little girl, what is your name?" "Karen err... uh..." "Ok then your name is Karen Erra." lol

[DurakkenX]

ummm no >.>

There has never been any explanation for it, but it most likely has something to do with Jane Doe thing or they just thought it was cute or it means something Neudaiz culture.

[BanF]

Personally I call it "glaring hole in the story that was let through because it is of no importance".

[Mikaga]

Heh, lots of things are ignored when they're inconvenient.

...like Gurhal's sun, which is only ever seen during the end credits and when the planets are aligned. Network Mode players should take note of this every time they leave their room or enter a spaceport.

[Wallin]

Main characters always have to have different surnames, it adds to the mystery of the story and makes them more of an individual. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif It would have been less interesting if Karen and Maya had the same last name since they're really nothing alike.

As another example, no one in Final Fantasy VIII had the same last name or at least you didn't know it, even though people were related all over the place: I'm sure everyone knows this by now but Laguna Loire is the father of Squall Leonhart, Ellone (no surname given) is his sister, Raine Loire was their mother - Headmaster Cid was the husband of Sorceress Edea - Rinoa Heartilly was the daughter of Julia (Heartilly) and General Caraway.

[Sinue_v2]

Unfortunately, while Gurhal's sun isn't more prominently shown - there are several instances where it is. For example in the Maiden's vision in chapter one (it shows the solar system and zooms out to a distant dark-sun-like object spewing out SEED). Also, it's mentioned in news casts and NPCs several times due to the increased rate of sunspot activity leading up to the Unification Point. Why it's causing sunspots is unknown right now, but we do know it's intricately tied to the SEED - so it will likely be a major plot point later.

[DurakkenX]

It should also be mentioned that the Sun is not shown in the unification point as i have said a number of times before. The alignment isn't around the sun.

Also, Wallin, every single one of those characters have a reason for not having the last surname.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

I submit that the name "Erra" may refer to the word "Errant", which essentially means wandering or lost, with added connotations of being wrong or out of place. It suits the circumstances under which the Shidow family found Karen rather well, I think.

[Shiryuu]

It's always possible she changed her name just because she could.

[BanF]

On 2007-08-26 20:59, Wallin wrote:
Main characters always have to have different surnames, it adds to the mystery of the story and makes them more of an individual. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif It would have been less interesting if Karen and Maya had the same last name since they're really nothing alike.

As another example, no one in Final Fantasy VIII had the same last name or at least you didn't know it, even though people were related all over the place: I'm sure everyone knows this by now but Laguna Loire is the father of Squall Leonhart, Ellone (no surname given) is his sister, Raine Loire was their mother - Headmaster Cid was the husband of Sorceress Edea - Rinoa Heartilly was the daughter of Julia (Heartilly) and General Caraway.


I'm willfully ignorant of anything FF, and will remain so for the rest of my life http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I think having Karen be Karen Shidow would have been better, actually; it would have been a better way to put forth she was adopted, when Ethan realized Maya shared the named and yet looked nothing alike. As it was, there was nothing but disbelief from me when this scene played out; without nothing to clue you in, I assumed Maya and Karen were just good buddies who hadnt't seen each other for a while, not foster sisters, and so it felt forced and artificial, when most everything else so far has been just perfect.

[Sydz]

On 2007-08-26 20:59, Wallin wrote:

As another example, no one in Final Fantasy VIII had the same last name or at least you didn't know it, even though people were related all over the place: I'm sure everyone knows this by now but Laguna Loire is the father of Squall Leonhart, Ellone (no surname given) is his sister, Raine Loire was their mother - Headmaster Cid was the husband of Sorceress Edea - Rinoa Heartilly was the daughter of Julia (Heartilly) and General Caraway.



A little off on Ellone. Her parents were shot dead trying to protect her from Sorceress Adel or who ever it was. you learn all that at the begining of disc 2, I think.

On topic, I've noticed It's the same situation with Laia as Karen. Her Family name is completely diffrent from that of her adoptive Father.

[DurakkenX]

Strangely...Laia is also connected with Maya >.>

[Anduril]

On 2007-08-27 10:30, Sydz wrote:

On topic, I've noticed It's the same situation with Laia as Karen. Her Family name is completely diffrent from that of her adoptive Father.


I would assume that has more to do with the fact that Laia doesn't want to be judged on the fact that she is the President's daughter, and would rather earn her own merit.

[Hotsuma-Blade]

I would assume that Karen was referred to as Karen Shidow until she decided to become a Guardian. Maybe both Laia and Karen chose different last names to draw less attention to themselves and their families (of course, let's ignore the fact that Maya becomes a Guardian Scientist and doesn't change her last name at all. Or the fact that Laia, who isn't the most tactful person, was able to evade her foster father IN HIS OWN ORGANIZATION). I think that the game mentions that Karen's been an active Guardian since she was 14, which is the age you get to join anyway (I can only imagine what Lumia will be like as a Guardian XD).

[Sinue_v2]

Seems to be a trend in PSU...

Karen and Maya are "sisters", but are not related
Liina in Tonnio's little sister, but they are not related.
Laia is Dalligun's daughter, but they are not related.
Prafo is Stank Geese's son, but they are not related.
Etc.

[BanF]

So Ethan and Lumia are brothers, but they are not related?

And, maybe, Leo and Lucaim?

[KTani]

On 2007-08-27 16:43, BanF wrote:
So Ethan and Lumia are brothers, but they are not related?



Of course they're not brothers, Lumia is a girl http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif They are blood relatives though. They also share a last name. Tonnio and Liina aren't siblings, they're just as close as siblings. And Tonnio asks Liina to marry him at the end of episode 1 anyway, so that alone tells you they're not siblings.

And where is this "Kuyuh" stuff coming from? You can't stick an H on the end of a word in Japanese.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KTani on 2007-08-27 16:58 ]</font>

[F-Gattaca]

Wait, I thought Tonnio and Liina were just orphanage-mates, not blood relatives.

Anyway, maybe it's not the glaring hole people make it out to be. Gurhal society could be markedly different, and adopted family members are not expected to take on the adopted surname unless they wish to, if this pattern is common among PSU characters as it appears to be.

Maybe it IS true that Karen's "Erra" surname was forged to hide her real identity, and despite carefully attempting to hide that nature, it was found out. What's not to say that Karen's father discovered her mom's plans and sent CoG servants loyal to him on a wild goose chase that drove the two into Tengogh territory? Shades of The Lion King there.

[BanF]

I don't see how sending guards after them affects the name at all. Karen was too young to know her name, and the mother was dead; and even if someone somewhere somehow learned her real name and realized it needed to be changed, Shidow would have still been a good idea. Unless, of course, her father had Denzel Crocker deductive abilities:

"Hmm... the Shidows, who I have no reason for knowing about, have a new adopted newman daughter. There are always orphans in need of adoption, but still, there can be only one explanation for this: FAIRY GODFATHERS!!!!

I mean, that traitorous witch of my wife!"

You realize, of course, that name change or not, had he thought she hadn't died, it would have been too obvious and convenient that the Shidows adopted, at the time of Karen's disappearance, a newman child her age that looks a lot like her? Had he looked he would have found her, no matter what people did since the case was too bizarre. He didn't, and so the "change name to hide her" is moot. Shades of Star Wars: Darth Vader was fooled into thinking his wife died on Mustafar while still pregnant, and so had no reason to expect his child to be alive so he never went looking for him or her, and so Luke Skywalker, real name and all, grew up in Tatooine of all places, without ever being discovered. Meanwhile, Leia is sent to the Organas to be adopted, and do they name her Leia Erra, or Leia Lennon? No, they give her the family name, Leia ORGANA. I rest my case.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BanF on 2007-08-28 08:06 ]</font>

[F-Gattaca]

I don't think you understood what I was suggesting. Or perhaps we've drawn different conclusions from what we saw in the story. This is how the story came together in my head witnessing the events unfold:

Karen's mom, aware of Doghi's plans to sacrifice Karen's life to fix Mirei's short life span, attempts to prevent this by spiriting away Karen and doing what she can to change her identity. This is where I thought the surname "Erra" came into play.

Some time during this, Doghi discovers his wife's plan and attempts to stop her with CoG armed servants loyal to him. His wife escapes with Karen with the servants hot on their tails, resulting in a chase that ends up in the Mizuraki C.D., where they are preyed upon by the tenghoghs.

The servants loyal to Doghi may have assumed that both of them fell victim to the tenghoghs and left to report this. With his daughter "dead to him," Doghi may have languished and sought other ways to prolong his favorite daughter's lifespan, not realizing she was still alive until PSU Episode 1 takes place.

At this point I assumed the Shidows discovered Karen alone in the Mizuraki C.D. and took her in as one of their own. Maya Shidow works for the GUARDIANS; perhaps Maya's parents, friends or other relatives of such were (and still are?) part of the merc corp, and were the ones that discovered her.

I don't understand what is so convoluted about this for it not to work. My memory of the story mode is a bit rusty though since I haven't played those specific chapters of the game for almost a year now.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: F-Gattaca on 2007-08-28 08:45 ]</font>

[BanF]

1. I still don't see when the Shidows find out about "Erra", even if it did indeed happen like you speculate.

2. I still don't see why they didn't just name her "Shidow" if they are adopting her.

In other words, none of your speculation answers the question "Why leave/put the name Erra and not give her Shidow?" in any satisfactory way. Using Occam's Razor, the answer still is "a glaring plothole that the quirky Japanese mentality found acceptable so it stays".

[F-Gattaca]

Numero uno is pretty easy; Karen could've been taught beforehand to use her fake identity and keep her real name secret. When the Shidows took her in, she probably told them her fake identity. It's not like kids can't be taught these things.

Numero dos I speculated on in the other post; it just might be a Gurhal thing for adoptees not to take on a new surname. People pointed out a similar trend among other adopted characters in PSU.

Really, what's the point of using Occam's Razor in situations like this? You're only going to cut yourself; the only people who can definitively retcon or fix real or apparent holes in a plot are the authors of the work. They may choose not to because it's either not a big deal or there isn't really a hole because they've planned ahead of time to address it in a later work.

In absence of this, all fans can do is attempt to rationalize any apparent gaps in the plot in order to make it logically work. Sometimes it takes a huge stretch, sometimes it doesn't (which is my opinion for this case). Say what you will of "Japanese RPG stories," Trekkies probably have it the worst when it comes to rationalizing plot holes.

[SStrikerR]

i know what to do in this situation!!!!!

not give a damn and forget about it!!!!

cue nitro_vortex's sig!

[DikkyRay]

Allright people, PSU has the technology to change your fucking eye color. I don't think changing a last name would be too difficult

[Sinue_v2]

I don't think the changing of Karen's last name is really worth so much discussion at this point when we only have (likely) 1/3rd of the story anyhow. The reason for the change may come out later, or it's also likely that Sonic Team will just gloss over the name change because it's really not important. It's a niggling detail at best, and simplest explanation for the change is that Sonic Team wanted to stress that she is a separate and unique character.

[BanF]

On 2007-08-28 09:49, F-Gattaca wrote:
Numero uno is pretty easy; Karen could've been taught beforehand to use her fake identity and keep her real name secret. When the Shidows took her in, she probably told them her fake identity. It's not like kids can't be taught these things.

Numero dos I speculated on in the other post; it just might be a Gurhal thing for adoptees not to take on a new surname. People pointed out a similar trend among other adopted characters in PSU.

Really, what's the point of using Occam's Razor in situations like this? You're only going to cut yourself; the only people who can definitively retcon or fix real or apparent holes in a plot are the authors of the work. They may choose not to because it's either not a big deal or there isn't really a hole because they've planned ahead of time to address it in a later work.

In absence of this, all fans can do is attempt to rationalize any apparent gaps in the plot in order to make it logically work. Sometimes it takes a huge stretch, sometimes it doesn't (which is my opinion for this case). Say what you will of "Japanese RPG stories," Trekkies probably have it the worst when it comes to rationalizing plot holes.




When someone tries to discredit Occam's Razor and the conclusions reached by it, they have lost.

[DurakkenX]

BanF no one is discrediting Occam's razor. F-Gattaca is saying it has no place in the conversation which he is right about.

There could be a number of reasons for it...
#1 She could have been carrying ID papers with her
#2 As families are important to the Newman culture it could be that she was given a name as if a new family and placed as part of a branch family of the Shidow family, but not part of the main.
#3 As already stated it could be equal to Jane Doe
#4 They could have just asked her, but it is likely that she would more likely have said Kuyuh Mikuna if she was regardless of whether she was taught or not to say Karren.
#5 Given that she was old enough to remember her name at the time it could be that the Shidows realized there may have been a problem and purposely changed her name like that.
#6 It is unknown and not ever mentioned so shut up already v.v

[F-Gattaca]

BanF no one is discrediting Occam's razor. F-Gattaca is saying it has no place in the conversation which he is right about.

Bingo. I'm actually kind of surprised BanF is taking this whole thing as if it were a serious debate between two logicians in which he is trying to declare himself the victor.

Actually, strike that. I was already surprised he was trying to invoke Occam's Razor at all.

[ChronoTrigga]

Maybe its Karen Erra as in Error, because when this game was first shown, only Mirei was shown, and adding Karen....was an erra........lol i crack myself up.