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View Full Version : PSU: Is PSU an MMORPG, or just a ORPG?



Zantra
Aug 27, 2007, 01:36 AM
I want to see people's opinions on why, or why not, they consider PSU to be an MMORPG... or not.

MMORPG (Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game)

or...

ORPG (Online Roleplaying Game)

You decide.

Mayu
Aug 27, 2007, 01:37 AM
It's not an MMO <.<

Zantra
Aug 27, 2007, 01:51 AM
I know that, but what makes you specifically consider a game, to be an MMO?

Chuck_Norris
Aug 27, 2007, 01:59 AM
Well to be a MMO it has to be two things.
(1)Online
(2)Needs to have a massive number of people playing it.

Hence the name MMO.

beatrixkiddo
Aug 27, 2007, 02:07 AM
In most MMORPGs, you interact in-game with an unlimited amount of other players.Games such as PSU and PSO, where actual gameplay occurs in 'instanced' rooms with player limits, are not technically Massively Multiplayer.

Zantra
Aug 27, 2007, 02:17 AM
Why is Guild Wars considered an MMO, when it seems to be exactly the same?

Did Sega think, that PSU would be considered an MMO, when compared to PSO?

My definition of an MMO, is this...

Massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) is a genre of online role-playing video games (RPGs) in which a large number of players interact with one another in a virtual world.

Which, I guess... in a way... could include Guild Wars, PSU, and PSO.

ThEoRy
Aug 27, 2007, 02:22 AM
if it's Massively Multiplayer and Online http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif A true mmo isn't limited by 6 man teams like psu is.

Zantra
Aug 27, 2007, 02:25 AM
On 2007-08-27 00:22, Octagon wrote:
if it's Massively Multiplayer and Online http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif A true mmo isn't limited by 6 man teams like psu is.



Everquest had 6 man teams... in a way.

Considering the fact, that you could only group with six people at a time, and each zone was seperated from eachother, by a loading screen.

And, it was considered one of the best MMO's of all time.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zantra on 2007-08-27 00:26 ]</font>

ThEoRy
Aug 27, 2007, 02:38 AM
were there spawn fields?

beatrixkiddo
Aug 27, 2007, 02:40 AM
no, spawn points. Enemies respawned after a set period of time, dependant upon the enemy and zone.

Zantra
Aug 27, 2007, 02:46 AM
On 2007-08-27 00:40, beatrixkiddo wrote:
no, spawn points. Enemies respawned after a set period of time, dependant upon the enemy and zone.



Yeah, I remember, there was this one monster, that dropped a rare quest item, and it only spawned once every 24 hours (real time), near a lake, with a pier, and an old fisherman. I think it was a pearl earring... or something.

beatrixkiddo
Aug 27, 2007, 02:50 AM
;o Fishbone earring, lets you breath underwater!

I had one ;o

ThEoRy
Aug 27, 2007, 02:50 AM
so it's not like u can just sit there and they keep coming endlessly ala FFXI?

beatrixkiddo
Aug 27, 2007, 02:56 AM
Well, some zones are meant for fast-paced levelling. People in EverQuest typically hunt by assembling a party and "setting up camp" in a safe spot of the dungeon/zone. Then someone brings enemies to the rest of the party one by one and they slay them. Depending on how many enemies are near and the respawn time, you can get in a levelling party where you are constantly fighting and getting exp.

ThEoRy
Aug 27, 2007, 03:04 AM
Well then I would say thats what makes it more of a real mmo than psu in my eyes.

beatrixkiddo
Aug 27, 2007, 03:07 AM
Yes, I agree completely. I disagree with Zandra on GW though. Assembling a party to venture into an isolated instance is NOT Massively Multiplayer.

ThEoRy
Aug 27, 2007, 03:12 AM
I jus think six doods aint all that massive is all..

beatrixkiddo
Aug 27, 2007, 03:28 AM
You've never met Bahn have you?

Dragwind
Aug 27, 2007, 04:37 AM
Bahn's a bit overobsessed with making sure people don't call this game an "mmorpg"

Why worry about such things? XP

MelanyKoura
Aug 27, 2007, 06:10 AM
Okay... you people need to just accept this is not a MMO. MMOs don't use lobbies and don't generate a field for a player to go out into on a whim. The maps are always there

Plus, on a MMO, you usually can see about 10 to 50 people in the same area, and the areas could be about.. what, 4-8 times bigger than one map on PSU? Plus MMO servers can hold a lot more people that one of our unis can.

This (PSU) is a Dungeon Crawler AT BEST.

I bet someone who knows the deeper things about the two can explain more. I just know this sure as hell isn't a MMO. xD And I giggle at the people who think it is.

Rashiid
Aug 27, 2007, 06:24 AM
all the letters match so its an MMORPG http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

Ultie
Aug 27, 2007, 06:37 AM
i think of psu as a online dungeon crawler >_>;

Schubalts
Aug 27, 2007, 06:40 AM
I predict a massive argument will occur in this topic. Can we stop being nitpicky about a damned ACRONYM, of all things?

landman
Aug 27, 2007, 06:45 AM
I don't consider GW or PSU/PSO MMORPG, a MMO needs ONE world with all the people there, not multyple cloned areas and worlds for every team

Baku
Aug 27, 2007, 07:25 AM
Orpg.

PJ
Aug 27, 2007, 08:28 AM
This is some massive controversial shit.

In other news
http://serebii.net/anime/pictures/shinou/512/DP357.jpg

Sekani
Aug 27, 2007, 09:11 AM
On 2007-08-27 04:10, MelanyKoura wrote:
And I giggle at the people who think it is.


I giggle at the people who care.

The acronyms don't mean as much to me as the fact that I'm paying for it every month.

Sychosis
Aug 27, 2007, 09:29 AM
I propose the term "MMO" be replaced with "ORPGTHOCWWALNOPETSAATSTADNHIAOSPMC" (Online Role Playing Game That Has One Continuous World With A Large Number Of Players Exploring The Same Area At The Same Time And Does Not Have Instanced Areas Or Small Party Member Caps) because clearly "MMO" is too vague a term and keeps people from sleeping well at night.

Mikaga
Aug 27, 2007, 09:32 AM
Hehe, and even by that definition, FFXI and friends wouldn't be because they're sharded (which IMO is far worse than a traversible universe system).

BanF
Aug 27, 2007, 11:06 AM
Any instanced games like PSU, PSO and Guild Wars cannot be termed real MMORPGs.

Now if you take the instancing out and concentrate on the number of people, only WoW, with over 50% of the market, rates as such. Everyone else has peanuts compared to that game.

Cracka_J
Aug 27, 2007, 11:10 AM
I think where people first get confused, even before considering the online aspect, is if this game is an RPG or not. While PSU/O both have RPG aspects, I think they fall into the category of "action/adventure" more then anything else. Think about it, everything is real time. There is no menu driven combat. There's no meaty story.

Take for example the D&D arcade games by capcom. These are not labled rpg's, but rather arcade style action/adventure (and partly beat 'em up). All the RPG aspects of psu/o match very closely to these titles. Characters level, spells level, attacks level. You fight in groups with live players to you reach an end boss and complete the mission. I think, if anything the psu/o games fall exactly where these D&D games do, aside from the online aspect.

I wish game companies still knew what genre's were. It's mostly sega's fault for advertising these games as rpg's anyways. IMO though, I don't think the Phantasy Star series has been an RPG since the genesis days.

BanF
Aug 27, 2007, 11:17 AM
On 2007-08-27 09:10, Cracka_J wrote:
I think where people first get confused, even before considering the online aspect, is if this game is an RPG or not. While PSU/O both have RPG aspects, I think they fall into the category of "action/adventure" more then anything else. Think about it, everything is real time. There is no menu driven combat. There's no meaty story.

Yes there is a meaty story; you need to play offline to find it, and then continue story mode online.

Also, I've yet to see where "menu driven combat" is a must for RPGs. RPG stands for Role-Playing Game, and they started being played with pen and papers on living rooms, so no "menu driven combat" there! As long as you're playing an alter ego with stats and abilities, it's an RPG.



Take for example the D&D arcade games by capcom. These are not labled rpg's, but rather arcade style action/adventure (and partly beat 'em up). All the RPG aspects of psu/o match very closely to these titles. Characters level, spells level, attacks level. You fight in groups with live players to you reach an end boss and complete the mission. I think, if anything the psu/o games fall exactly where these D&D games do, aside from the online aspect.


That doesn't change what it is; they are simply billing it as an arcade game because it lacks the depth of RPGs like Oblivion (that has no menu-driven combat, either, and if you think that's not an RPG...) I suspect it was also called that because RPG still bears the "geek" stigma somewhat.



I wish game companies still knew what genre's were. It's mostly sega's fault for advertising these games as rpg's anyways. IMO though, I don't think the Phantasy Star series has been an RPG since the genesis days.


My friend, I have to say you have a rather narrow view of what an RPG is, a view that for some reason doesn't allow for the console RPGs to evolve; you'd do good to broaden your horizons, you might be missing on a lot of fun.

chibiLegolas
Aug 27, 2007, 11:18 AM
PSO isn't a traditional MMORPG. We're not competing over the same materials and weapons that's a set amount within the game as a whole. We're only fighting for it within our little dungeon/6 player rooms. (which I'm glad for). If there were only 5 set amount of 12* of each rares in this game (for example), or only 1 drops within a 24 hr time, and we'd all have to fight for it, is the day I quit PSU.

I play to advance myself and help support my team mates. Not to be so cut throught and aggressive to my other possible team mates.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-08-27 09:19 ]</font>

A2K
Aug 27, 2007, 11:20 AM
I'd rather not get bogged down in this tired semantics argument yet again. Semantics arguments, much less this one, rarely accomplish anything substantial.

Eeyore
Aug 27, 2007, 11:25 AM
PSU would be a MMO if the only Omnagoug in the game respawned approximately every 7 days in the lobbies just for Cherry and friends to kill for the one source of har quicks.

Cracka_J
Aug 27, 2007, 11:46 AM
On 2007-08-27 09:17, BanF wrote:
My friend, I have to say you have a rather narrow view of what an RPG is, a view that for some reason doesn't allow for the console RPGs to evolve; you'd do good to broaden your horizons, you might be missing on a lot of fun.


I play everything, mang. I'm not calling the series good or bad because it does not play by the rules of a traditional rpg, I'm just saying what it is.

Sometimes a narrow view of a genre is exactly what you need to define a game. If the game does not meet certain criteria that would define it as an RPG, should it still be called one? In my opinion, that's a no.

I love the games, I just don't think they should be called RPG's by any standards.

Jife_Jifremok
Aug 27, 2007, 12:32 PM
And since when did having so-called stats and abilities have to be required for role-playing? There's also "role playing" independent of pen-and-paper. Children play pretend for fun, and when adults do this it's usually more for educational purposes and called role-playing.

And going back into the realm of videogames, ever play Star Control 2? It's basically as much of an RPG as an Elder Scrolls game, but it is not bogged down by stats at all. Would anyone really consider it an RPG though?

Bah, if you ask me, the term "RPG" became bastardized when companies started equating role-playing with boring grind fests. Making the stories totally lack protagonist individuality didn't help matters. (Wilst thou do this? No! But thou must! No! But thou must! No! But thou must! Yes! Now thy story progresseth!) And of course, giving characters set personalities and such probably didn't help either. That's not role-playing, it's just storytelling!

But...yeah. Where was I? I forgot what I was posting about.

Ryoki
Aug 27, 2007, 12:48 PM
On 2007-08-27 00:17, Zantra wrote:
Why is Guild Wars considered an MMO, when it seems to be exactly the same?
Did Sega think, that PSU would be considered an MMO, when compared to PSO?

My definition of an MMO, is this...

Massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) is a genre of online role-playing video games (RPGs) in which a large number of players interact with one another in a virtual world.

Which, I guess... in a way... could include Guild Wars, PSU, and PSO.


Because guild wars has a huge population, and the only thing limiting total interaction is the team-limited explorable areas. Which I still think is a good idea.

landman
Aug 27, 2007, 12:55 PM
On 2007-08-27 09:46, Cracka_J wrote:
...


Do you know what makes an RPG? for your information Zelda is more RPG than any Final Fantasy (except 1 and 2 maybe), in Zelda you role play as a guy named Link or whatever name you give to him, in FF you play as... Squall, and you follow the story. In PSU you play as your character, you ROLE PLAY

RPG =/= lvl up in turn based combats, in fact most JRPG fail in the Role Playing. If you want to know what an RPG is play The Elder Scrolls

Jife_Jifremok
Aug 27, 2007, 01:10 PM
on Guild Wars:
Is it possible that it is often considered an MMORPG simply due to the combat system being pretty much the same shit as the usual MMORPG despite being so limited to instances?

ArmitageQc
Aug 27, 2007, 01:17 PM
On 2007-08-27 00:22, Octagon wrote:
if it's Massively Multiplayer and Online http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif A true mmo isn't limited by 6 man teams like psu is.


yeah then does Guild wars still a MMO then because its just a 8 players??

I think Psu can be concider as a MMO.Sure its not big as WoW or FFXI but u can almost do ALL the same things as any other MMO.

Kismet
Aug 27, 2007, 01:35 PM
Well...

The major reason why PSU is NOT an MMORPG is because PSU has LOBBBIES. And MMORPG's do NOT have lobbies like PSU does.

Also, PSU is not meant to have an exploration element. It's always the same areas all the time, much in contrast to GW or FFXI where there are miles and miles of field ground to explore/travel across. This is either due to wanting a more controlled game structure, or probably more likely because Sonic Team is too lazy/cheap to get up off of their lazy asses and do some polygon work. <_< (Or perhaps someone was lacking in the imagination/innovative department somewhere...)

PSU is nothing more than a 'networked dungeon crawler' or put simply, an online hack-and-slash. It doesn't have the elements or fundamentals a MMORPG has/needs (this is partially proven by the fact that exp-gain is revolved around the numeral amount accumulated, not a percentage based off of character level like MOST MMORPGs), let alone is it even near.

ThEoRy
Aug 27, 2007, 01:56 PM
On 2007-08-27 07:29, Sychosis wrote:
I propose the term "MMO" be replaced with "ORPGTHOCWWALNOPETSAATSTADNHIAOSPMC" (Online Role Playing Game That Has One Continuous World With A Large Number Of Players Exploring The Same Area At The Same Time And Does Not Have Instanced Areas Or Small Party Member Caps) because clearly "MMO" is too vague a term and keeps people from sleeping well at night.


seconded.

BanF
Aug 27, 2007, 02:01 PM
Guild Wars has lobby-like thingies, from where people instance the dungeons and such.

Not all RPGs have exploration elements; again, saying one must have it is to have a very narrow view of what an RPG is.

All an RPG (Role Playing Game, remember?) needs is:

- Character classes and/or races with stats

- A way to increase the character's stats and powers; most often this is XP, but PSu also has MP, and I've seen other games where all you need to do is finish increasingly difficult mission trees, so you collect "finished missions", no XP.

Everything else: rares, trading, crafting, exploring, PvP, pets, rides, vehicles, castles, sieges, city-building, resources, clans, etc. are not necessary. They are wanted and welcomed because they add to the number of things one can do while in the game, but that doesn't make them essential. If they are essential to you, go look for a game that offers them, it is what everyone does, after all.

PSU might not have an exploration element per se, but coming for the first time upon Foran Waterfall or the AJis Kugu oasis is as satisfying, even if you didn't get points for it.

Kismet
Aug 27, 2007, 02:18 PM
Getting back to the point of the thread, PSU's not an MMORPG. XD

BanF
Aug 27, 2007, 02:39 PM
It's more fun than some MMORPGs I can think of, tho *cough*WoW*cough*

Kylie
Aug 27, 2007, 03:27 PM
It's got more people than some areas in the world. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif If Resident Evil Outbreak can get away with that title...

Schubalts
Aug 27, 2007, 03:38 PM
You play the role of a survivor in Outbreak. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Kylie
Aug 27, 2007, 03:44 PM
On 2007-08-27 13:38, Schubalts wrote:
You play the role of a survivor in Outbreak. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif


Yeah, but I'm saying... If Capcom calls that an MMO with 80 people or less ON A GOOD NIGHT, then PSU has to be an MMO with 400-600! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif I'm not dissing Outbreak, I loved that game actually (besides the drama, but that's for another day). http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

Finalzone
Aug 27, 2007, 06:27 PM
PSU is MMORPG because players can interact with other and ORPG because of action oriented much like Zelda series (that is a role playing game). It is different from traditional MMORPG where players only click to menu to do actions. I personally prefer that kind of game because I don't have to wait for monsters to spam at the time I am going to either school or job.

Zantra
Aug 28, 2007, 02:38 PM
On 2007-08-27 12:39, BanF wrote:
It's more fun than some MMORPGs I can think of, tho *cough*WoW*cough*



Hitting my head against a wall, is more fun than WoW.

Greaus
Aug 28, 2007, 10:19 PM
I'd say MMO. Simply because there is a large online player base. Trying to say it depends on how many in a group or instance doesn't work in my opinion. What in my opinion is the only real MMO I played was Dark Ages of Camelot. In that game a big "raid" consisted of gathering up 100+ people to group raid an enemy keep. Biggest fight I saw on that game had over 350 people in one area at one time engaged in mass warfare. That's MMO.

EQ, EQ2, SWG, and WoW (the other MMO's I played besides PSO and PSU) didn't even come close to that. Does that make them not an MMO? I would have to say no.

BanF
Aug 28, 2007, 10:27 PM
Over 350? So few? You should have seen ShadowBane on its glory days. 350 were there... on each side.

No idea about the EC's and SWG, but WoW does have the people to uptage your claim and mine; however, they waste the opportunity, just like they waste every other opportunity to make the game memorable. All it has going for itself is the "sheep" mentality.

DAMASCUS
Aug 29, 2007, 01:55 AM
PSU is still Online and Multiplayer. It's an action role playing game that comes down to an animated version of pen and paper. Whats really debatable is what is 'massive'? There are the planets and a space station but other than the city areas there is even less exploration than PSO. The number of players could be massive but even then you can't even see more than 6 people in the lobby at once; correct me if I am wrong but thats what I experience. PSU isn't massive in scope either; we need more PSO like story missions for each of the planets that involve random wierd NPC's and their petty rewards. In place of being massive it is repetitive and spammable. SMORPG?

Massive it ain't...

Polychrome
Aug 29, 2007, 03:41 AM
Can I say something here?

I've been playing MMOs since they were text-based MUDs, and I see *no* reason why PSU should not be considered an MMORPG.

Why, do you ask?

I think the problem is, people are confusing "lobby" with the glorified chat rooms temporarily hosted on a general gaming service (xbox live) or one's machine, rather than a permanent virtual world on a permanent server that one may visit. The lobbies in PSU are very, very different, as they are permanent places for people to log on at any time.

"So what" you say? Honestly, it makes all the difference in the world.

What makes PSU an "MMO", is simply the fact that Sega hosts a permanent, virtual world to log into and play, and the player is not required to host anything on their own computer or console. Furthermore, characters and items are stored online.

If PSU were merely an "ORPG", everything would be hosted client-side. (For example, Neverwinter Nights.) Your character would just be a file on your computer, easily hacked to give yourself level 99 in two seconds of typing. If a central server was involved at all, it would be purely for the sake of matchmaking or finding other player-hosted servers.(Granted, I'm on the 360 version, so I don't know if you PC users are doing something else...)

Instances? How the hell did we get the equation: instances != MMO? Bah. Are you guys really that oblivious to how common instancing is? Would you like me to make a list of random ones off the top of my head?

1. Everquest 2: Some major player areas are instanced when overcrowded. The number of people to trigger an instance is astonishingly low.

2. Star Wars Galaxies: Private Dungeons are instanced for players to use.

3. Toontown: Has both safe areas (equivalent to PSU's lobbies) and instanced mini-raids for players. On the other hand, it also has open, explorable areas. Entire server area is instanced, so that players may move to a less crowded or more crowded server depending on their playstyle.

4. WoW: Instanced Dungeons, like SWG and Toontown

5. Maple Story: Over 20 instances of entire server, similar to PSU and Toontown. Players can move through them as needed.

6. Fusion Fall (Not released yet): Private instanced dungeons for groups.

Just for the record, most MMOS don't allow parties larger than a certain number, instance or not.

Okay, so why no big massive raids?

Simply put, PSU isn't really created for that audience. It is geared more towards the instant gratification loved by casual gamers, rather than the "shout LFG for two hours and camp a spawn for 3" hardcore types. And, hey. If necessary, PSU's system could *easily* be retooled to add some permanent hunting areas.

On the note of "massive"... Um, you can only see 6 at a time in the non-combat areas? Must be something different in PS2 land. There's about 25-30 fully-loaded characters running amok on 4th floor Uni 1 in the 360 server right now.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Polychrome on 2007-08-29 01:52 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Polychrome on 2007-08-29 01:55 ]</font>

bloodflowers
Aug 29, 2007, 04:59 AM
It's clearly an MMORPG by the words of the definition. If it isn't, a lot of games people take for granted as being MMOs need to be discounted too. I've never understood why a subset of users seems so hung up on this, and so adamant in their wrongness.

BanF
Aug 29, 2007, 08:29 AM
Simple answer:

My game > your game

Dad being taller no longer gives street cred, it seems, so it's come down to what your game "is".

Polychrome
Aug 29, 2007, 12:40 PM
On 2007-08-29 06:29, BanF wrote:
Simple answer:

My game > your game

Dad being taller no longer gives street cred, it seems, so it's come down to what your game "is".



LOL, maybe that's my problem. I play too many of these games.

Cracka_J
Aug 29, 2007, 01:09 PM
On 2007-08-27 10:55, landman wrote:
Do you know what makes an RPG? for your information Zelda is more RPG than any Final Fantasy (except 1 and 2 maybe), in Zelda you role play as a guy named Link or whatever name you give to him, in FF you play as... Squall, and you follow the story. In PSU you play as your character, you ROLE PLAY


It's funny you mention zelda, because since the game's conception, it has been labeled as an action/adventure game. Check your old nintendo/snes boxes if you aren't 12. Also, here's a link (http://wii.ign.com/index/reviews.html?ordering.attribute=game.lower_catalog _name&ordering.order=asc&constraint.return_all=is_true&constraint.letter.game.catalog_name=L) to how ign classifies all of the modern zelda games.

So if zelda is classified as an action/adventure which is (as you stated) "more" of an rpg then any FF, why isn't PSU considered one too?

It seems the modern gamer is just as confused over what an RPG is as the industry.

McLaughlin
Aug 29, 2007, 01:23 PM
PSU is instanced, so it's not Massively Multiplayer.

Polychrome
Aug 29, 2007, 01:38 PM
On 2007-08-29 11:23, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
PSU is instanced, so it's not Massively Multiplayer.



Did you miss my entire post? Nearly every major MMO uses instances. The instancing argument is about as moot as moot can get.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Polychrome on 2007-08-29 11:39 ]</font>

Soulvayne
Aug 29, 2007, 02:09 PM
I put down neither as this game doesn't appeal to me in a MMORPG sense like games such as WoW and FFXI which I've played. Now everyone can make a list of reasons why PSU is as much of a MMORPG as other games out there, but to me PSU and PSO both feel more like Gauntlet Legends for the arcade/xbox and the Diablo games. Diablo was essentilally instanced with players being able to join a game per availability much like we can on PSU. Also as some people have pointed out saying a game is not a MMORPG because parts are instanced would eliminate the vast majority of games that are considered MMORPGs. Dynamis/Assault/BCNMs/ in FFXI and Instanced Dungeons in WoW. They generally make these instances available on a seperate server than the rest of the world so that the participants suffer less lag, as well as be able to have an area completely to themselves.

The one thing in my mind that means RPG in general is questing. The Diablo games in my mind are more of a RPG than PSU do to the fact they had some quests not very many but some at least, there was a point to what you were doing. In PSU you have to select story missions to have a reason for existing on this world. PSU is basically a dungeon crawl were we are just walking around killing stuff to level up and kill some bigger stuff.

To each their own, and the best way to decide if a game is truly an RPG is to play various "RPGs" to gather an opinion for themselves, one man's RPG is another mans Career Mode in Madden.

DAMASCUS
Aug 29, 2007, 02:26 PM
On 2007-08-29 01:41, Polychrome wrote:
On the note of "massive"... Um, you can only see 6 at a time in the non-combat areas? Must be something different in PS2 land. There's about 25-30 fully-loaded characters running amok on 4th floor Uni 1 in the 360 server right now.


I always wondered that about the PS2 end but that totally makes sense. Trust me its super annoying.

One thing that would be really thrilling for PSU in the future is to have lobbies where there would randomly be a lobby invasion when enemies would break through, a klaxon would go off and everone goes into battle mode. Nobody can get into the lobby but the people that are there all have to fight off the enemies to unlock it.

That at least would give it a MMO feel...

McLaughlin
Aug 29, 2007, 03:15 PM
On 2007-08-29 11:38, Polychrome wrote:

On 2007-08-29 11:23, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
PSU is instanced, so it's not Massively Multiplayer.



Did you miss my entire post? Nearly every major MMO uses instances. The instancing argument is about as moot as moot can get.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Polychrome on 2007-08-29 11:39 ]</font>


Not every other game is completely instanced.

Sychosis
Aug 29, 2007, 03:40 PM
Neither is PSU.

Anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game


Trends as of 2007

As there are a number of wildly different titles within the genre, and since the genre develops so rapidly, it is difficult to definitively state that the genre is heading in one direction or another. Still, there are a few obvious developments. One of these developments is the raid group quest, or "raid", which is an adventure designed for large groups of players (often twenty or more).

Another is the use of instance dungeons. These are game areas that are "copied" for individual groups, which keeps that group separated from the rest of the game world. This reduces competition, and also has the effect of reducing the amount of data that needs to be sent to and from the server, which reduces lag. World of Warcraft's "raids", mentioned above, are often instance dungeons, as are all of the combat areas in Guild Wars.

BanF
Aug 29, 2007, 05:11 PM
My dad's still taller, y'all.

And I bet he makes more money than all your dads, too.

ThEoRy
Aug 29, 2007, 05:14 PM
I hereby dub PSU as an OARPG

Online Action Role Playing Game

Because that's what it is.

Period.

McLaughlin
Aug 29, 2007, 05:26 PM
Another thing PSU is missing is NPC quests. Or NPCs. The only ones Online run shops, barring the NPCs you can invite into your party, but you can't interact with those.

ThEoRy
Aug 29, 2007, 06:16 PM
On 2007-08-29 15:26, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
Another thing PSU is missing is NPC quests. Or NPCs. The only ones Online run shops, barring the NPCs you can invite into your party, but you can't interact with those.


Yeah sega really dropped the ball there. So much more could've been done to give it a more robust rpg feel. The guild quests of PSO filled that role nicely. Interaction with the sub plots and their respective NPC's was a satisfying experience for me. I'm sure a lot of you feel the same way. Where's the meat that's supposed to go with these potatoes SEGA keeps feeding us?

Sinue_v2
Aug 29, 2007, 06:32 PM
Well HSM could count as an NPC quest, since it's a personal request from Bunami. Same could likely be applied to Bruces Dungeon. Not very many NPC quests, mind you, but they are there. I think this was largely because in PSO, NPC quests is where you got the bulk of the story. This isn't needed in PSU since the game has an offline storymode already, as well as online storyline quests. Sonic Team likely left NPC's out of the online mode because they expected the game to be much more popular. The PS2 has enough problems loading up other players, let alone reserving space for the NPC's which MUST be given priority. So while I may not like the situation, I can at least understand why they did it.

Although, they really should have allowed us to free-roam in the online storyline quests and talk to NPCs there. But oh well.

As far as Zelda goes - it has continually defied classification since it's release. You're not going to be successful pigeon holeing it now.

ThEoRy
Aug 29, 2007, 06:57 PM
On 2007-08-29 16:32, Sinue_v2 wrote:
Well HSM could count as an NPC quest, since it's a personal request from Bunami. Same could likely be applied to Bruces Dungeon. Not very many NPC quests, mind you, but they are there. I think this was largely because in PSO, NPC quests is where you got the bulk of the story. This isn't needed in PSU since the game has an offline storymode already, as well as online storyline quests. Sonic Team likely left NPC's out of the online mode because they expected the game to be much more popular. The PS2 has enough problems loading up other players, let alone reserving space for the NPC's which MUST be given priority. So while I may not like the situation, I can at least understand why they did it.




I see your point mostly and I think we can all agree they definitely lost some of it's charm in translation. With the bruces and HSM though my problem is where's the connectivity? The PSO guild quests had all sorts of things going on between them weaving them together.
Couldn't be too hard to make it so you couldn't hear one piece of info unless you've done a previous quest creating a branching storyline arc. Oh wait, that sort of thing takes some creative brainpower to accomplish. Not our new sega's strongest point. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
To me it just seems like they trimmed off several layers of the story's depth simply because they just didn't wanna think it out. Not a good decision in my eyes either but I guess I'll take what I can get right?

Cracka_J
Aug 29, 2007, 06:58 PM
On 2007-08-29 12:09, Soulvayne wrote:
To each their own, and the best way to decide if a game is truly an RPG is to play various "RPGs" to gather an opinion for themselves, one man's RPG is another mans Career Mode in Madden.



I agree with ya man. Using a lot of the arguments in here, you could very easily make a point that any sports game, racing game, or any game in general that contains some sort of career mode or the like could be an rpg. After 20+ odd years of continuous gaming, I have pretty set guidelines as to what falls into the category. But hey, that's just me.

Sinue_v2
Aug 29, 2007, 07:22 PM
The PSO guild quests had all sorts of things going on between them weaving them together.

But as said, they weaved together like that because that was the main mechanism for delivering the storyline. PSU has plenty of storyline already. The problem being that too many people play it with strictly a PSO mentality in that - if it's not my character, it's not worth playing. They either breeze through the storyline mode without fully exploring the NPC's (who are a vast source of information and backstory, and who often interact with each other) dialouge in order to unlock Extra mode, or simply don't play it at all. Since there is no NPC dialouge in extra mode, and very little in online mode - it seems that story is lighter and even more shallow than it is in PSO - which it's not.

Now, while I agree that the PSO mode of storytelling should make a return, it should only be an amendum and an enhancer to the groundwork they've already laid with the offline/online storyline. It shouldn't be a compromise or a replacement.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2007-08-29 17:24 ]</font>

Esufer
Aug 29, 2007, 09:22 PM
On 2007-08-29 17:22, Sinue_v2 wrote:

The PSO guild quests had all sorts of things going on between them weaving them together.

But as said, they weaved together like that because that was the main mechanism for delivering the storyline. PSU has plenty of storyline already. The problem being that too many people play it with strictly a PSO mentality in that - if it's not my character, it's not worth playing. They either breeze through the storyline mode without fully exploring the NPC's (who are a vast source of information and backstory, and who often interact with each other) dialouge in order to unlock Extra mode, or simply don't play it at all. Since there is no NPC dialouge in extra mode, and very little in online mode - it seems that story is lighter and even more shallow than it is in PSO - which it's not.

Now, while I agree that the PSO mode of storytelling should make a return, it should only be an amendum and an enhancer to the groundwork they've already laid with the offline/online storyline. It shouldn't be a compromise or a replacement.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2007-08-29 17:24 ]</font>


They could have tied the potential Guild missions in with the Various NPCs about the place.

Like the Miners on Moatoob, and the other people you check up on throughout storymode, and really fleshed out their stories as well.

ThEoRy
Aug 29, 2007, 09:52 PM
thats exactly what I mean Esufer. A lil back story never killed anyone. Unless you killed someone IN your back story....

Kismet
Aug 31, 2007, 06:17 PM
Since so many people have found so many reasons to compare so closely to a MMORPG (and you're ALL 100% correct), the thing I can say to still declare that is NOT an MMORPG is the massive aspect.

PSU is nowhere near the status of WoW, FFXI, Everquest, Guild Wars, RO, or L2 - let alone does it house that many players (even with all the worldy servers combined, I'm sure).

F-Gattaca
Aug 31, 2007, 06:35 PM
So wait a minute, people think a game's status as an MMORPG is entirely dependent on how many players are currently playing that game? Not if it was designed for a massive amount of players?

Call me crazy, but I don't think that's a good way of defining genres.

I still refer to PSU (and PSO) as a MMO/MMORPG regardless of the "I'm smart enough to know PSU isn't an MMO lolz!" insistance by a few. While gameplay is limited to 6 (or 4 in PSO) players, the "massively multiplayer online" part of it comes, I think, outside the missions and in the lobbies, where everyone can interact and then form up groups to go off on missions.

I remember seeing the old PSO commercials. Sega made a HUGE deal of the fact that the player base effectively equaled the entire world; the idea that you are in the same RPG world with potentially hundreds (even thousands or millions) of other players is what defines MMORPGs to me.

People try to exclude PSU/PSO from the MMORPG status by saying "You play in an instanced mission with up to six people." So what? Many MMO's limit party sizes to around 6~12 people or so. Many MMO's also provide instanced dungeon systems, often for that party in question. It's just that PSU (and PSO) rely entirely on this (but people CAN join parties already in an instanced mission at will, as far as PSU goes). There's another MMORPG out there that does this very same thing, but without a rigid party system: Armada Online.

Yet despite the near-similar features, people don't downplay the MMORPG status of the more popular games because of either fact.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: F-Gattaca on 2007-08-31 16:38 ]</font>

DAMASCUS
Sep 1, 2007, 03:25 AM
Oddly enough though for an action game that you can play online in 'almost' real-time six people in a party seems like the most you would even want in a party. I would imagine that if PSU holds out for post PS2 online gaming the server technology could be updated to allow ten people to storm a level!! Talk about massive chaos lol . Would it be MMO then??

Aaomi
Sep 1, 2007, 04:30 PM
It is hard for one to place a game in just a single genre anymore. with the ways games have changed over time the old categories are definitely getting blurred. PSI imo, feels like a multi player online action role playing game... lol

MrMadison
Sep 4, 2007, 12:58 AM
On 2007-08-31 16:35, F-Gattaca wrote:
So wait a minute, people think a game's status as an MMORPG is entirely dependent on how many players are currently playing that game? Not if it was designed for a massive amount of players?

Call me crazy, but I don't think that's a good way of defining genres.

I still refer to PSU (and PSO) as a MMO/MMORPG regardless of the "I'm smart enough to know PSU isn't an MMO lolz!" insistance by a few. While gameplay is limited to 6 (or 4 in PSO) players, the "massively multiplayer online" part of it comes, I think, outside the missions and in the lobbies, where everyone can interact and then form up groups to go off on missions.

I remember seeing the old PSO commercials. Sega made a HUGE deal of the fact that the player base effectively equaled the entire world; the idea that you are in the same RPG world with potentially hundreds (even thousands or millions) of other players is what defines MMORPGs to me.

People try to exclude PSU/PSO from the MMORPG status by saying "You play in an instanced mission with up to six people." So what? Many MMO's limit party sizes to around 6~12 people or so. Many MMO's also provide instanced dungeon systems, often for that party in question. It's just that PSU (and PSO) rely entirely on this (but people CAN join parties already in an instanced mission at will, as far as PSU goes). There's another MMORPG out there that does this very same thing, but without a rigid party system: Armada Online.

Yet despite the near-similar features, people don't downplay the MMORPG status of the more popular games because of either fact.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: F-Gattaca on 2007-08-31 16:38 ]</font>


I think the main argument against PSU being a MMO is the Lobby System. it doesn't seem to be a real, persistent world. It's just a series of Graphical Lobbies, much like Guild Wars. however the difference between this, and Guild Wars, is that inbetween the Graphical Lobbies in Guild Wars, there is actually, mapped-out Land that you can traverse. in PSU, you grab a party of 6 and go out into an Instanced Mission. In Guild Wars, you grab a party of 6 and go out into an instanced copy of THE WORLD. Not just necessarily going into a set mission. Your party goes out into the world and does any multitude of quests, or you can just explore the landscape, and hunt and hang outand basically just go wherever you want. in PSU when you leave the lobby, you are in one mission, with one path, and one goal.

I think THAT is what makes PSU simply a ORPG, and not a MMORPG.

now none of this takes away the fun factor of PSU, of course.

Kent
Sep 4, 2007, 01:42 AM
It's a well-known fact that PSU is not an MMO. It's funny, how many people think it's something other than foolish to deny hard facts...

Anyway, in order to actually be an MMO, you have to be able to interact directly with numerous amounts of other player characters within a setting that provides the game's main option of advancement in a world that is at least mostly-persistant.

In PSU, that number is 6. In PSO it's 4, in Diablo it's 4, in Diablo II it's 8, and in Guild Wars it's some other relatively small number (I haven't played Guild Wars in quite a few years). I realize "numerous" is somewhat of an abstract term, but I'm going to say something like... A hard limit no fewer than 500 per area.

If the majority of a game is played in instances, I'd say that alone would automatically disqualify it from being considered an MMO, being that instances are the exact opposite of persistant (what's the point of instances with 500+ people, anyway?). Therefore, Dungeons and Dragons Online and Guild Wars are doubly not so. A game containing instances is very, very different from a game whose only option of player advancement is through said instances.

Logically speaking, it's not possible for PSU to fulfill the requirements for it to be actually classified as an MMORPG.

The game's main option of advancement allows for no more than six people playing together at once.
Said main option of advancement takes place inside instances.
Said main option of advancement is the only option of advancement.
Therefore, the only way to advance in the game, is via instances that can contain no more than six players at once.

...Therefore, PSU is not, and cannot be considered to be, an MMO of any sort.

EJ
Sep 4, 2007, 03:27 AM
Guild War is not a MMORPG because it the same thing as PSU except you can have 8 people in a party and the area is also instances.

Edit: bah click submit >.>

Anyways many think GW is a mmorpg but psu isn't and the truth is both are not mmorpg. Since they have instance worlds instead of being about to go out and wander the fields. Only rest I think people consider GW a MMORPG is because of the boring clicking to attack instead of the turn base action.

Also city of hero is more mmorpg even though the team limit is like 10 i think but when you do a mission you can see the other team in the same mission.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: EJ on 2007-09-04 01:31 ]</font>

F-Gattaca
Sep 4, 2007, 04:19 AM
It's a little-known fact that PSU is an MMO. It's funny, how many people think it's something other than foolish to deny hard facts...

Fixed.

Have a look at these links. They also contain the definitions I was using when I made my earlier post.

http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2003/07/what-is-mmorpg-actually.html
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-mmorpg.htm

I see nothing in these sources that PSU (or Guild Wars, to respond to EJ) fails to qualify. For example, population: Tobold's blog gave an actrual estimate as to when online games become massive, saying anything from 100 to 5,000 on the same server (or more).

Didn't someone say that a single filled star in PSU's Universe Switch station represents 100 people? Even with how puny iPSU's population is compared to 360PSU and jPSU, we clearly manage more than 100+ users online at any given time, and jPSU has no problem with that. PSU's servers are designed to take way more people than iPSU can muster.

And people still try to deny that PSU is "massively multiplayer?"

Or, if you trust Wikipedia to be reliable, you can see what they have to say. The two links above were used a sources:


Massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) is a genre of online role-playing video games (RPGs) in which a large number of players interact with one another in a virtual world.

As in all RPGs, players assume the role of a fictional character (most commonly in a fantasy setting)[1] and take control over many of that character's actions[2]. MMORPGs are distinguished from single-player or small multi-player RPGs by the number of players, and by the game's persistent world, usually hosted by the game's publisher, which continues to exist and evolve while the player is away from the game.


A persistent world is a virtual world (often in a fantasy setting and often in online realms) that is used as a setting for a role-playing game. The world is (mostly) always available and world events happen continually.

Let's see ... that's especially true of PSU, isn't it? Much of the data is serverside, and you can always log in almost whenever you want to visit Gurhal (and this was also a point Sega stressed about PSO). Even when you log off, the game is still on, and hundreds of other people are hack and slashing their way through.

PSU's status as an MMO is likely gone unrecognized/denied because it also has significant offline content in addition to the network mode, which is something many MMOs do not have. I heard that a lot of game review sites rated PSU only for its Story Mode.

Still, PSU meets all the requirements in design to be called an MMO if what Wikipedia and those two sources say are correct.

There's nothing excluding games that use instanced systems.

There's no hard limit as far as how many people must fight together in a party to be considered an MMO. Considering exotic MMORPGs like A Tale In The Desert went without any form of combat for a long time, that should say something. It's all about whether or not you have a world where the players can all meet, and we have that.

Anyone still in doubt, I have three words for you: Ryuki's Photo Shoots. If PSU weren't an MMO those shouldn't have been possible.

In fact, the genre description is pretty broad and can include Guild Wars, PSU, heck, even PSO. PSO still fits all the definitions of an MMORPG from what I saw in those sources I've cited.

Now here's the real funny thing. A lot of people consider .hack//SIGN and that whole series in general to be about a fictional MMORPG. How many Haseos do we see running around?

According to an interview with the man responsible for the series, he based The World (the fictional MMORPG) off several MMORPGs.

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/403/403483p2.html

He named PSO in particular as one of those MMORPGs and its influence is clearly visible in The World. PSU is even more massively multiplayer than PSO was, and yet both games are snubbed as ORPGs.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: F-Gattaca on 2007-09-04 07:39 ]</font>

Kent
Sep 4, 2007, 09:51 AM
I'm still waiting for someone to prove that a maximum of six players at once makes a game massively-multiplayer.

Or four in the case of PSO.

Also: Don't fix things that aren't broken. Doesn't work too well.

Esufer
Sep 4, 2007, 09:55 AM
On 2007-09-03 23:42, Kent wrote:
It's a well-known fact that PSU is not an MMO. It's funny, how many people think it's something other than foolish to deny hard facts...

Anyway, in order to actually be an MMO, you have to be able to interact directly with numerous amounts of other player characters within a setting that provides the game's main option of advancement in a world that is at least mostly-persistant.

In PSU, that number is 6. In PSO it's 4, in Diablo it's 4, in Diablo II it's 8, and in Guild Wars it's some other relatively small number (I haven't played Guild Wars in quite a few years). I realize "numerous" is somewhat of an abstract term, but I'm going to say something like... A hard limit no fewer than 500 per area.

If the majority of a game is played in instances, I'd say that alone would automatically disqualify it from being considered an MMO, being that instances are the exact opposite of persistant (what's the point of instances with 500+ people, anyway?). Therefore, Dungeons and Dragons Online and Guild Wars are doubly not so. A game containing instances is very, very different from a game whose only option of player advancement is through said instances.

Logically speaking, it's not possible for PSU to fulfill the requirements for it to be actually classified as an MMORPG.

The game's main option of advancement allows for no more than six people playing together at once.
Said main option of advancement takes place inside instances.
Said main option of advancement is the only option of advancement.
Therefore, the only way to advance in the game, is via instances that can contain no more than six players at once.

...Therefore, PSU is not, and cannot be considered to be, an MMO of any sort.


Guild Wars is up to 24.

(that'd be in an alliance battle.)

And what are you guys on about?

With these S-rank drop rates, I'd liken PSU to Survival Horror.

F-Gattaca
Sep 4, 2007, 10:06 AM
Judging from the criterion and definitions I was able to dig up with even a cursory look into the subject, I stand by fixing your previous broken statements, Kent.


I'm still waiting for someone to prove that a maximum of six players at once makes a game massively-multiplayer.

Or four in the case of PSO.

This reminds me a lot of "can't see the forest for the trees."

By harping on the size of instanced parties in PSO and PSU and claiming that no one's proven massively multiplayer because of that, you're not seeing that the games (especially PSU) have persistent worlds where the server population could all meet together if they wished.

A game world can be (and often is) more than just the mission zones and fields. PSO had its lobbies; PSU has explorable cities and bases/locales/outposts interspersed through mission zones, and in all of them you can interact or conduct business (including shopping/restocking). It's not that hard to see the massively multiplayer element.