Mechguns: Guntecher or Fortegunner?

[RufuSwho]

Will a fortegunner with a 9* (10) mechgun
outdamage a Guntecher with a 12* mechgun?

Of course, we can't say for sure, but my guess is: if Guntechers remain the only class with S rank mech guns, The 12* version will outdamage the fortegunner.

[Hrith]

Yeah, and very easily. Even with Shifta on the GT and nothing on the FG, the FG wins.

I doubt AoI will change that.

[Rashiid]

Fortegunners will not get S rank mech-guns.

why? your FORTE. your excell in tha 'BFGs' (rifles; laser cannons; Gernade launchers)

only reason you hav S rank pistols is because 'Stormline' is fortegunner only; and that has a combo; and would be pointless to hav a weapon/armor combo if the class cant even use tha weapon (ever)

since GT's have Wands; it would make single-handed guns our main attack; thus giving us S rank versions of them.

thats my 2 cent' son son.

[beatrixkiddo]

Mechguns (along with many other weapons like twin daggers, shotguns, and to a lesser extent, twin handguns and crossbows) are like 75-90% character ATP, and 10-25% weapon Att. With mechguns, the boost in Att from 9* to 12* isn't gonna be dramatic enough to outdamage a class with more ATP and the same Bullet Level Cap.

[DaRkWoLf30]

Yeah mostly likely a FG will out damage for a bit. Once higher ones come out we never know.

[Kion]

It would probably do more damage with FG, but it fits into GT's playing style better.

[Balthasar]

On 2007-08-28 16:24, Kion wrote:
It would probably do more damage with FG, but it fits into GT's playing style better.



Considering that Fortegunners will be able to use level 20 melee PA's in AoI, I think that mechs will actually fit into their play style very, very nicely. Perhaps even better than they will for guntechers. I just wish Fortegunners could use S rank mechs, that'd rock. we got shafted with S rank laser cannons and pistols.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Balthasar on 2007-08-28 17:38 ]</font>

[Tetsaru]

Meh, I never really liked machineguns that much personally. Short range, low accuracy and damage output compared to other weapons, unable to shoot first-person, low status effect level... yeah. The only reason why I carry a machinegun is for Mayalee Fury on Jarbas every once in a while, and I still don't do that very often. =/

Also, I feel that there's no point for Fortegunners to use melee PA's. Even if we do get Lv20 Skills, we still wouldn't be able to do a full 3-move combo for most arts - wasted potential, if you ask me. I say stick to long range, status effects, and the occasional trap.

[Pillan]

Are we comparing Fortegunner to Guntecher in a party or solo? Solo, I could actually see GT getting more damage out of machineguns than fG if it retains the AoI beta stats. Think about it: GT gets a 20% buff from Shifta, the same bullet level, and only loses 16% ATP from fG. On top of that, they’ll get an additional 25-35 damage from Zalure if you’re fighting 100+ enemies.

In a party, though, GT will have the same buffs and debuffs the fG has, so the fG will always do more damage, even with their A rank cap. (S rank mechs won’t break the ATP difference between GT and fG now, so how will they when the gap increases from the increased character and class level caps?)

But, yeah, that’s pretty much true with all of GT’s S ranks. Fortegunner was just made to have more power and accuracy to balance the lack of techniques.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-08-28 18:36 ]</font>

[RedX]

On 2007-08-28 18:30, Pillan wrote:
Are we comparing Fortegunner to Guntecher in a party or solo? Solo, I could actually see GT getting more damage out of machineguns than fG if it retains the AoI beta stats. Think about it: GT gets a 20% buff from Shifta, the same bullet level, and only loses 16% ATP from fG. On top of that, they’ll get an additional 25-35 damage from Zalure if you’re fighting 100+ enemies.

In a party, though, GT will have the same buffs and debuffs the fG has, so the fG will always do more damage, even with their A rank cap. (S rank mechs won’t break the ATP difference between GT and fG now, so how will they when the gap increases from the increased character and class level caps?)

But, yeah, that’s pretty much true with all of GT’s S ranks. Fortegunner was just made to have more power and accuracy to balance the lack of techniques.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-08-28 18:36 ]</font>


That would be very true, if they were use the same gun. However a 9 (10) is more powerful then a 12*. Plus i think that GT will go through some more balance changes.

[Rashiid]

On 2007-08-28 17:37, Balthasar wrote:

On 2007-08-28 16:24, Kion wrote:
It would probably do more damage with FG, but it fits into GT's playing style better.



Considering that Fortegunners will be able to use level 20 melee PA's in AoI, I think that mechs will actually fit into their play style very, very nicely. Perhaps even better than they will for guntechers. I just wish Fortegunners could use S rank mechs, that'd rock. we got shafted with S rank laser cannons and pistols.




fG = BFGs.
GT = Small Arms.

20 skills = 1-handed weapon can use both combos w/ Shadoog (why do u think ST gav you those?)

and LAST thing fG's got is SHAFTED.

ud be uncontrollably broken w/ S mech guns (wayy too much power, were talkin 500-600 a shot on jarbas w/ 12s*+)

[DurakkenX]

Why are you looking at dmg for mechguns anyways?

mechguns serve 2 purposes
1) Attention grabber
2) SE sticker

Both of these require ATA and one requires MST or TP, i forget which.
this means the best character to use a mechgun would be a Newman WT or CAST fG

[RegulusHikari]

On 2007-08-28 18:53, Rashiid wrote:
fG = BFGs.
GT = Small Arms.

20 skills = 1-handed weapon can use both combos w/ Shadoog (why do u think ST gav you those?)

and LAST thing fG's got is SHAFTED.

ud be uncontrollably broken w/ S mech guns (wayy too much power, were talkin 500-600 a shot on jarbas w/ 12s*+)



I would seriously have to disagree. There's a 16 ATP difference between the 9 and 12* mechs, it would be far from broken. (Some of these weps need ATP buffs)

I don't support FGs gaining S rank Twins OR Mechs, but just because the principle of the thing.

[Pillan]

On 2007-08-28 18:53, RedX wrote:
That would be very true, if they were use the same gun. However a 9 (10) is more powerful then a 12*. Plus i think that GT will go through some more balance changes.


That's not true for mechs or crossbows. Not sure about twin handguns though, but I doubt it. 1 hand guns pretty much just gain PP with each grind and max with the same ATP as it would have with 1 rank up. It's not like rifles where a Phantom +10 makes the 11 star look crappy.

That and, as a GT right now, I can outdamage my own fG damage with anything with more ATP than an ungrinded Python. If you can get the ATP gap to less than 10%, GT wins. With 20% buffs, you only need the gap to be less than 20% for GT to win in damage, and we all know the ATP gap is only 16%. I'd say that's fair given the horrible ATA handicap GT has compared to fG, even with buffs and debuffs taken into consideration.


EDIT:

Yeah, Deathmakers + 10 have about the same ATP as the 12 star ungrinded.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-08-28 20:33 ]</font>

[RegulusHikari]

On 2007-08-28 18:58, DurakkenX wrote:
one requires MST or TP



This is an... erm... interesting rumor to say the least. >_>

[Esufer]

On 2007-08-28 18:58, DurakkenX wrote:
Why are you looking at dmg for mechguns anyways?

mechguns serve 2 purposes
1) Attention grabber
2) SE sticker

Both of these require ATA and one requires MST or TP, i forget which.
this means the best character to use a mechgun would be a Newman WT or CAST fG


Because, you know, Wartechers can TOTALLY use mechguns.

[bloodflowers]

To be fair, for fortegunner to be an accurate label, we'd need S ranks of every *gun*. By this logic many classes are gimped on the available S ranks. It's S rank twins I will miss the most. Deathmaker +10 does the job, but the S rank ones look really cool - and that matters.

[Esufer]

On 2007-08-29 06:07, bloodflowers wrote:
To be fair, for fortegunner to be an accurate label, we'd need S ranks of every *gun*. By this logic many classes are gimped on the available S ranks. It's S rank twins I will miss the most. Deathmaker +10 does the job, but the S rank ones look really cool - and that matters.


So by that same reasoning, Fortefighter should get EVERY melee weapon in S-rank?

[amtalx]

On 2007-08-28 18:58, DurakkenX wrote:
Why are you looking at dmg for mechguns anyways?

mechguns serve 2 purposes
1) Attention grabber
2) SE sticker



QFL


On 2007-08-29 06:29, Esufer wrote:

On 2007-08-29 06:07, bloodflowers wrote:
To be fair, for fortegunner to be an accurate label, we'd need S ranks of every *gun*. By this logic many classes are gimped on the available S ranks. It's S rank twins I will miss the most. Deathmaker +10 does the job, but the S rank ones look really cool - and that matters.


So by that same reasoning, Fortefighter should get EVERY melee weapon in S-rank?



Yes, but in label only. The "Forte" in Fortegunner means that their prowess applies to guns in general, not just heavy weapons. The class weapons selection is fine, it's just the naming that sloppy.

[Golto]

Have you guys forgotten about Twin Maylee and atp booster items? GT would need lvl 50 support/debuff techs to out damage a FtG using the same machinegun bullets.

The atp difference between machineguns is so small even with grinding 15* machineguns couldn't overcome the atp difference between the same lvl GT and FtG. I doubt we'll see a normal srank +10 machinegun with atp over 300. Who knows maybe some s2 machinegun in the distant future will have meseta fury bulit in but thats the only way for Gt to outdamage.

[PALRAPPYS]

Actually, Golto, Meseta Fury is the other Mechgun Ultimate PA, but that isn't released even on JP yet.

[Pillan]

On 2007-08-29 07:20, Golto wrote:
Have you guys forgotten about Twin Maylee and atp booster items? GT would need lvl 50 support/debuff techs to out damage a FtG using the same machinegun bullets.


That's true, but wouldn't GT be slightly overpowered if it could still beat an fG who wasted money on the 7-10 Agtarides they'd use per run?


On 2007-08-29 07:20, Golto wrote:
The atp difference between machineguns is so small even with grinding 15* machineguns couldn't overcome the atp difference between the same lvl GT and FtG. I doubt we'll see a normal srank +10 machinegun with atp over 300. Who knows maybe some s2 machinegun in the distant future will have meseta fury bulit in but thats the only way for Gt to outdamage.


I'm honestly expecting a weird Kubara machinegun that adds like 500 ATP but only has 200 PP at some point in AoI.

[F-Gattaca]

On 2007-08-29 08:16, Pillan wrote:
I'm honestly expecting a weird Kubara machinegun that adds like 500 ATP but only has 200 PP at some point in AoI.



Come on, big money big money big money Yasminakov 9000M!

I'd also go for a machinegun that uses meseta for ammunition.

[Pillan]

On 2007-08-29 08:22, F-Gattaca wrote:
I'd also go for a machinegun that uses meseta for ammunition.


I really don't see why they didn't release it with other super-powered arts like Gravity Break, Spinning Strike, and Boma Duranga. I guess Sonic Team decided fG was powerful enough without it and screwed over GT as usual.

I mean, it makes sense not to release Dizas and Rentis, but an attack that's not overpowered compared to the 300+% ATP arts?


EDIT:

Finally thought of a reason: the other arts all have a disadvantage (Gravity Break has low accuracy plus hits few targets, Spinning Strike hits few targets, Boma Duranga can kill the user in a few volleys), while Meseta Fury just drains meseta... On the other hand, they could just lower the ATP to the point where there's no real advantage to using it besides an infinite PP mech or raose the meseta cost to the point that no one will use it.

Hopefully they'll add a Photon Sphere equivalent of PA fragments to pay for the over-overpowered ones.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-08-29 08:40 ]</font>

[Rashiid]

On 2007-08-28 19:00, RegulusHikari wrote:

On 2007-08-28 18:53, Rashiid wrote:
fG = BFGs.
GT = Small Arms.

20 skills = 1-handed weapon can use both combos w/ Shadoog (why do u think ST gav you those?)

and LAST thing fG's got is SHAFTED.

ud be uncontrollably broken w/ S mech guns (wayy too much power, were talkin 500-600 a shot on jarbas w/ 12s*+)



I would seriously have to disagree. There's a 16 ATP difference between the 9 and 12* mechs, it would be far from broken. (Some of these weps need ATP buffs)



12+ meaning in Aoi the 15*s n stuff will be MUCH higher; and 16 ATP for a mechgun DOES make a difference.

[Golto]

On 2007-08-29 13:25, Rashiid wrote:

On 2007-08-28 19:00, RegulusHikari wrote:

On 2007-08-28 18:53, Rashiid wrote:
fG = BFGs.
GT = Small Arms.

20 skills = 1-handed weapon can use both combos w/ Shadoog (why do u think ST gav you those?)

and LAST thing fG's got is SHAFTED.

ud be uncontrollably broken w/ S mech guns (wayy too much power, were talkin 500-600 a shot on jarbas w/ 12s*+)



I would seriously have to disagree. There's a 16 ATP difference between the 9 and 12* mechs, it would be far from broken. (Some of these weps need ATP buffs)



12+ meaning in Aoi the 15*s n stuff will be MUCH higher; and 16 ATP for a mechgun DOES make a difference.



Keep this in mind FtG, depending on race, can have 100+ more atp than GT at lvl 90. So you'll need a machinegun that has over 100 more atp than the best grinded 8-9* machinegun. 16<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<100. So unless Gt gets a major increase in atp% and FtG doesn't in AOI this gap will only get larger the higher the lvl.

[HaydenX]

The SE sticker thing was moderately accurate. Rising fury puts confusion on Gaozorans pretty damn quickly.

The lightning one shocks med. mobs pretty well too. Those examples are mainly for solo though.

Also, I see people referring to how good Fortegunners are with mechguns and GT, but everyone seems to be foregetting about Fighgunners who kick the shit out of the other two for damage. I do insane damage with my Drumline.

[Pillan]

On 2007-08-30 10:52, HaydenX wrote:
Also, I see people referring to how good Fortegunners are with mechguns and GT, but everyone seems to be foregetting about Fighgunners who kick the shit out of the other two for damage. I do insane damage with my Drumline.


The base ATP difference between an unbuffed GT and FG is 23.4%, but the difference between the opposite element multiplier of level 30 mechs vs level 20 is 23.4-23.6%, so GT will always do a bit more damage than FG as machineguns add more than zero ATP. And, of course, if GT does more machinegun damage by default, fG deals even more.

That and the accuracy gap between those 3 classes is pretty clear when you attack with any gun.

[F-Gattaca]

On 2007-08-29 08:30, Pillan wrote:
Finally thought of a reason: the other arts all have a disadvantage (Gravity Break has low accuracy plus hits few targets, Spinning Strike hits few targets, Boma Duranga can kill the user in a few volleys), while Meseta Fury just drains meseta... On the other hand, they could just lower the ATP to the point where there's no real advantage to using it besides an infinite PP mech or raose the meseta cost to the point that no one will use it.


Honestly, I'd like to see more guns that use up meseta for ammunition, not just for SMGs.

If it had attractive advantages so that people would still use it in specific situations (like the Mayalee Fury) those guns (or bullet PAs) would (in my opinion) help keep the economy from inflating, OR drain haxeta.