Opinions on AotI and weapon diversity

[DelDevi]

At the moment the difference in performance between S- and A-rank weaponry isn't THAT big, which encourages players to not only use the "trademark"-weapons of their class.(FI with claws, fF with twin sabers, etc..)
I'm afraid that the more common 12+ star S-ranks get(will surely take a while though) that will certainly outperform their A-rank counterparts by a large margin, it kinda forces players into a certain playstyle/weapon choice depending on the equippable S-ranks.

My assumption is that at a certain point it won't make any sense for a WT to equip a single saber instead of a dagger since the 15* dagger is just that much stronger than any 9* +10 saber there is.

It's certainly true that great stats are not everything thats important but I guess the diffrence in performance WILL get so large that one cannot ignore it altogether.

So what is your opinion on that matter? Will the expansion lead to a lesser degree in diversity? Will classes with fewer S-rank choices get the shaft?

[Shardio]

Maybe they will increase the star rating for something to be called an S-rank.
But, you are right. As a WT I was also concerned about this. Even though I love Daggers, I also like Spears and regular Sabers!
I don't think we're supposed to be full of S ranks though. You should probably look at them as the PSO rares. There's high rank rares and low ranks. You'll have a few high ranks, but not an entire palette.

[lostinseganet]

To many the look is more important than the strength. People will have their strong weapon incase they need it through.

[F-Gattaca]

It's bound to happen. After all, who pays attention to the B and C ranks once they can wield A-ranks? I don't think many do; personally my arsenal does consist of a mixture of B and A grade weapons, but if I had the funds, I'd probably be like Balthasar and only use +10 grinded A-ranks--with the exception of my beloved Maggac. It's just way too badass to ignore.

Personally I wish that the S-ranks stood for "speical" instead of "superior." It doesn't of course, but what I mean by that is wishing that the S-rank variants of weaponry had different advantages other than simply overpowering the next lowest star rarity.

It'd be cool if S-rank weapons had power roughly equal or just above 9* weapons, but had special abilities that set them apart and make them desirable each in their own way. Kind of like how Kubara melee gag weapons can inflict status effects, or the Crea weapon series can hit one more enemy compared to weapons of the same class. (Personally I think the Crea series should have been S-ranks with power roughly equal to a 9* or 8* weapon ... )

I get kind of put off by the tier system inherent in RPGs and MMORPGs from a game design perspective. Yeah, it's common that some weapon systems on a given market at given time will be better than others, but often weapon systems will have individual things they excel at, and others they lack in.

Not many people would be happy with an inferior weapon unless it has some kind of advantage over the superior one. Like right now: People scoff at S-rank hunters when they could be using grinded A-rank weapons. The same thing happened back in the day with grinded B-ranks and ungrindable A-ranks.

When th superior weapon system has every statistical advantage though, you'll find way fewer people using the weaker weapons. Often it's an image thing, which is the case with me. The end result though, nearly everyone's going for the exact same weapon because it's the best there is. There's a lack of diversity inherent in that, and from a game design perspective, I guess I feel annoyed because the time and effort made designing all these different weapons goes to waste simply because they're weaker to the higher tiered weapons.

Sooo ... yeah. PSU's current S-ranks suffer from that "higher rarity has better stats over everything else" problem. Ambitions of the Illuminus is likely going to carry that even further with the 13~15* ranks of weapons, though I personally would want them to be more unique than omnipotent.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: F-Gattaca on 2007-09-10 05:24 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the whole 13-15* stuff to tell you the truth. I mean, it really hurts those Saber using Fortefighters, Twin Pistol using Fortegunners, Spear using Wartechers, and etc. But yeah, I say this a shitload of times but I'll never even have an S rank weapon successful EVER, so its no big deal for me. But like Shardio said, it would be pretty cool if they readjusted it so that S rank rating would be increased or whatever. I mean, I want A ranks to at least still be useful. >.<

[Rashiid]

theres always 50% (10) 9*s http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

but highest 9* 50% ive seen was (5); some ice nightwalker....

but this mainly applies to guns//tech weapons; since we have no %'s.

once we hit 12*+; if we want most power we will need S ranks.

but idk where ppl are getting this idea that S ranks will be common; ive only seen about 1-2 ppl w/ all S ranks.

even if they do; its tha same one repeated (i.e 5 halarods; Uranasa then Shi-Kikami; or 3 Desta; 2 Bazgas and a Meteor Cannon)

untill i see a full diverse palete of S ranks -

Halarod
Garzoran Rod
Psycho Wand
Olka Rod
Shi-Kikami- Tesbra
Uransara - Hoshi-Kikami

i wont believe they are common.

[danny_o]

The new grinding system ought to make it more inviting to power up one's A rank weapons if you are a WT, for example. Since you can't use an S rank spear, you can find a decent percentaged 9* and grind it without fear of it being destroyed.

The real bummer would be armor sets. Like the Yamata-Misaki and Yamata-Senba. That's an S rank weapon that pairs with an A rank armor, and it looks like my WT won't be getting in on that deal. I will manage though.

Throwing in special addiditives to S ranks would sweeten the deal, like a Burn or Silence SE with every melee hit, something like that.

...or drop rates that don't require you to drop your life to find some more 1 and 0's, but what ever. Heh, OT...sorry

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

It already doesn't make sense for a WT to use a saber instead of a dagger.

[panzer_unit]

In AOI they're adding new A-rank models as well from other manufacturers. In some cases these offer a huge statistical variation compared to 12* weapons... who won't be using grinded A-rank Yohmei knuckles? 400+ PP instead of crap 300+? Tenora 9* swords with grinds are going to be absurdly damaging compared to 12* GRM.

... more importantly, when more people figure out that 100 ATP just isn't that big a damage boost for a strong character I think B-ranks are going to become more popular again. Realizing that I'm missing out on less than 10% of my actual damage (before considering element) by using Rivet Gloves instead of Gudda Gant, hell yes I'm spamming 5*'s to get high elements instead of wasting vast time and money on 8* or 9* that won't even be significantly more powerful in the end.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-09-10 11:54, panzer_unit wrote:
who won't be using grinded A-rank Yohmei knuckles?I won't, because I don't like knuckles, and almost all Yohmei weapons look terribly fugly.

[Pengfishh]

On 2007-09-10 11:54, panzer_unit wrote:

... more importantly, when more people figure out that 100 ATP just isn't that big a damage boost for a strong character I think B-ranks are going to become more popular again. Realizing that I'm missing out on less than 10% of my actual damage (before considering element) by using Rivet Gloves instead of Gudda Gant, hell yes I'm spamming 5*'s to get high elements instead of wasting vast time and money on 8* or 9* that won't even be significantly more powerful in the end.



Hence my collection of Survivors and Last Survivors. Besides, the ATP difference between a 6* Twin Dagger and a 9* is less than 10. GRMs look cooler, too.

[MSAksion]

Back to WARTECHER S rank weaponry - i'm sorry but S rank Single Knife and Dual Knife isn't cutting it. That's all Wartecher gets?

I like the ultimate dual knife skill but i think Wartecher S ranks should be as diverse as say a Figunner with 5 and a fortefighter 6(?) Wartecher have TWO and knifes are S ranked in FIGUNNER As well.

And yes when we get like lvl 100+ in AOI and we need the extra strength power of S rank weaponry but we can't cause we're stuck using 9* +10 if we're lucky and +3 if we're normal players then what? We'll be forced to find Halp Seraphi knifes and spam the ultimate knife skill over and over while our Knuckles and Spear get dusty?

Shouldn't Wartecher have a bit more in the S rank weaponry? Even Protranser will get all S rank and Wartecher gets S rank Wand - which isn't that big of a deal anyway.

ForteFighter = big heavy weapons like Broadsword and Axe.
Figunner = Fancy weapons like double Saber and Twin sabers.
Wartecher = Knuckles and Claw/dual Claws and twin sabers too very well balanced equips the WT has.

Everyone uses spears - even FORTETECHER can use lvl one spear.

[GreenArcher]

Guntecher can't use spear ;_;

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-09-10 13:31, MSAksion wrote:
stuff
1. WT gets S-Rank Wand in AoI.
2. It's spelt "knives."
3. They're called "daggers."
4. If anything, WT needs S-Rank Spear.

[Pillan]

Well, right now a grinded or high percent A rank is way better and way easier to obtain than an S rank, so I’ll stick with that until they increase the drop rates or add 10 stars into the stores.

Also, the weapon diversity will make A ranks even more useful. Who will need GRM S twin handguns when Tenora is making As with even more ATP? Who will want Tenora fists when YC is making ones with more PP and ATP at the cost of ATA?

And then what about the weapons where rank is almost meaningless? Machineguns and twin daggers are completely based on your base stats, so all you’re getting at S rank is a cooler look. No matter what rank you’re equipping, the fF and fG always out damage their partial classes with those 2 weapons. I doubt we’ll see a partial class beat a forte in terms of damage with any of their S ranks for another year.

Arguing for partial classes to use their A ranks is a little harder, aside from cards on GT and spears on WT. You’re doing less damage than the forte-version and the A cap makes it even less, but who cares really? You knew that from the beginning by signing up for a half-breed.

The only person that will force you to use the weapons your class specializes in is yourself.

[Zorafim]

I think fFs and FGs should use the S rank weapons they're given. Considering how many PAs they have for them, they should be able to cover most situations. I'll admit, though, I do kind of want to use Tornado Dance and Rising Crush...

[Pillan]

On 2007-09-10 15:11, Zorafim wrote:
I think fFs and FGs should use the S rank weapons they're given. Considering how many PAs they have for them, they should be able to cover most situations. I'll admit, though, I do kind of want to use Tornado Dance and Rising Crush...


Well, as it stands right now, an fF is never going to be able to beat its Renkai damage with only 6 ranks higher of weapon (except for high DFP enemies...) and the same for an fG with mechs (aside from the rare situations where shotguns get 7+ hits and you don't have to move around). We'll probably see some unique Kubara S ranks that break that, but really I'd say use whatever you want just because you're always better off than anyone else.

On the other hand, a dagger has like 4 ranks lower ATP than a spear and 3 ranks lower ATP than a saber/claw, so WT will have use for those weapons for some time. Nothing a GT can do can keep up with its card damage, so why wouldn't you keep using those? And Fighgunner's higher base ATA is high enough to make a significant difference between it and Fortefighter when spamming swords, especially with Gravity Break just around the corner.

I say we're given the options for a reason. Obviously someone will find a use for them, but no weapon has been labeled as mandatory, regardless of rank.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-10 15:34 ]</font>

[Shishi-O]

On 2007-09-10 11:54, panzer_unit wrote:
In AOI they're adding new A-rank models as well from other manufacturers. In some cases these offer a huge statistical variation compared to 12* weapons... who won't be using grinded A-rank Yohmei knuckles? 400+ PP instead of crap 300+? Tenora 9* swords with grinds are going to be absurdly damaging compared to 12* GRM.

... more importantly, when more people figure out that 100 ATP just isn't that big a damage boost for a strong character I think B-ranks are going to become more popular again. Realizing that I'm missing out on less than 10% of my actual damage (before considering element) by using Rivet Gloves instead of Gudda Gant, hell yes I'm spamming 5*'s to get high elements instead of wasting vast time and money on 8* or 9* that won't even be significantly more powerful in the end.

good 4 u, i use dblsbrs though, and theres a huge difference between even 7*,8*, and 9*

i am spending too much on synthing/grinding. but it is completely worth it.

as for s-ranks in that weapon class, only the carraguine rucar seems like an actual s-rank dblsbr, it's damage and pp are just beyond whatever grind u can put on a nightwalker.

yep still spamming dark satelite

oh by the way, tenora dblsbrs upgraded with kubara wood is something i am hoping for*actually drooling atm*



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shishi-O on 2007-09-10 15:38 ]</font>

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-09-10 15:31, Pillan wrote:
Nothing a GT can do can keep up with its card damageCrossbow SEs.

[Pillan]

On 2007-09-10 15:59, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Crossbow SEs.


Well, when you consider that burn 3 is 4% damage every 2 seconds and burn 2 is 3% every 2 seconds, while the crossbow and card will be doing more damage than that against your average medium mob, it's fairly obvious that between the higher damage and significantly higher accuracy at the same firing rate, the card wins. (Remember, you’re firing 7.5 shots of either weapon between each burn tick, each doing about as much damage as said tick. Only difference being the crossbow is landing 6 or 7 out of 10 and the card is landing 4 out of 5.) Of course, against large mobs, the crossbow would probably win because 1% of the enemy's HP is a lot.

That and 60% of the mobs in the current game are fire, so the fire element is generally more of a liability than a blessing, especially when comparing it to a card's opposite element output… Unless, of course, you're playing Newman GT where SE damage = weapon damage.

Sure, you could argue why not infect them? But you’re still dealing with the “most enemies are non-light” plus infection is lower damage/time in general.


The reason ST didn’t give GT S rank cards isn’t because they hate GT; it’s because they’d become overpowered.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-09-10 16:25, Pillan wrote:

The reason ST didn’t give GT S rank cards isn’t because they hate GT; it’s because they’d become overpowered.

I can't help but wonder your opinion of level 30 bullets and S-Rank cards on AF, which has a considerably higher ATP rating than GT.

[Pillan]

On 2007-09-10 16:29, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
I can't help but wonder your opinion of level 30 bullets and S-Rank cards on AF, which has a considerably higher ATP rating than GT.


AF has an A rank cap of cards. It's AT with the S cards. That and it's like comparing GT's mech and twin handgun damage to FG's right now. GT wins because the 10 level difference with the opposite element results in a much higher damage modifier.

AT, on the other hand, has lower ATP, ATA, AND a 20 level lower bullet cap, so there's no competition. fT's stats are so low that you can't even bother considering it even now where GT and fT have the same max.

I don't have the stats on card growth after 30, so I can't tell you exactly how it will play out, but that's my expectation.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Delete please. O:



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-10 18:05 ]</font>

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Delete.

H8 forum errors srsly.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-10 18:06 ]</font>

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Delete this one too ohgod.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-10 18:06 ]</font>

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Anyway, the point is that GT is RAmarl-ly broken in AoI.

EDIT: Furthermore, the forum keeps going wonky, and consequently this post will probably show up twenty times.

[Xaeris]

I'd like to see another S rank or two on wartecher. Maybe twin sabers; lord knows the average FI doesn't appreciate them. I'd happily take them off their hands. It's not so much that I think that lacking in S ranks makes me weak (it does, it's just the least of my concerns), but only being able to equip a small fraction of the rare and unique items in the game is...just seems like it sucks the fun out of item hunting.

I was hoping that there'd be a healthy amount of rare A-ranks, like the Adahna Cannon, to provide some spiffy things to use in weapon types I have no S in, but if they're going up to 15* to accommodate new items, that seems unlikely.

PS: A saber can be superior to a dagger in a few situations, one of them being that Rising Strike is better damage on Adahna due to the second target being too high out of the range of most skills.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2007-09-10 15:31, Pillan wrote:

On 2007-09-10 15:11, Zorafim wrote:
I think fFs and FGs should use the S rank weapons they're given. Considering how many PAs they have for them, they should be able to cover most situations. I'll admit, though, I do kind of want to use Tornado Dance and Rising Crush...


Well, as it stands right now, an fF is never going to be able to beat its Renkai damage with only 6 ranks higher of weapon (except for high DFP enemies...) and the same for an fG with mechs (aside from the rare situations where shotguns get 7+ hits and you don't have to move around). We'll probably see some unique Kubara S ranks that break that, but really I'd say use whatever you want just because you're always better off than anyone else.

On the other hand, a dagger has like 4 ranks lower ATP than a spear and 3 ranks lower ATP than a saber/claw, so WT will have use for those weapons for some time. Nothing a GT can do can keep up with its card damage, so why wouldn't you keep using those? And Fighgunner's higher base ATA is high enough to make a significant difference between it and Fortefighter when spamming swords, especially with Gravity Break just around the corner.

I say we're given the options for a reason. Obviously someone will find a use for them, but no weapon has been labeled as mandatory, regardless of rank.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-09-10 15:34 ]</font>


Looks like you just won this thread, dude.

[Flwl3ssCowboy]

Personally I wish that the S-ranks stood for "speical" instead of "superior." It doesn't of course, but what I mean by that is wishing that the S-rank variants of weaponry had different advantages other than simply overpowering the next lowest star rarity.

One of the neatest ideas I've heard in a while, F-Gattacca, S-Rank should also have something unique about them other than sheer strength.

Spread Needle is a prime example, weak as hell in terms of ATP, but it was so damn fast and could easily paralyze groups.

(Sorry if any ideas were repeated, I didn't bother to read through the whole thread)

[Tykwa]

Twin Pistol using Fortegunners Why not Sega, why I love mobility of twins yet you don't even give the most gun using class S rank twins, it just doesnt make sense ;(


I want S rank twins! for ForteG!!