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Kimil
Sep 17, 2007, 08:52 PM
We just got another upgrade:

A rank Sword
A rank Shadoogs


Along with the already known upgrades, this becomes our list of bonuses with AoI:

S rank Wand
A rank Sword
A rank Whips
A rank Shadoogs
A rank Madoogs
Lvl 30 Melee
Lvl 20 Ranged
Lvl 30 Attack Techs
Lvl 30 Support Techs
ATP Increase (112% at level 10 WT)
TP Increase (112% at level 10 WT)
Defence Increase (122% at level 10 WT)
MST Increase (130% at level 10 WT)

I'm feeling pretty damn happy with my class now, whats the thing in that list that makes you the most happy?

For me it the lvl 30 Support Techs http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif, tied with the Mags of course http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-09-19 14:22 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-09-26 12:16 ]</font>

Crazy_Hunter
Sep 17, 2007, 08:56 PM
Sounds like you guys are going to be alot better with them upgrades. busting out super buff's while dealing sweet damage.

Zorafim
Sep 17, 2007, 08:58 PM
As a non-WT, I can say I'm glad that I can see someone besides a fT support me. Also, I can support with any type of job I want now. I'd say these buffs are overall win, even if they don't directly pertain to me.

-Ryuki-
Sep 17, 2007, 08:59 PM
I don't really care for the sword, to be honest. If they had given us S rank Claws, that'd be nicer.

Dhylec
Sep 17, 2007, 09:00 PM
WT feels more balanced/rounded once the upgrade kicks in. I'm a hybrid at heart, so WT is always top of the fun. ;]

Wallin
Sep 17, 2007, 09:03 PM
Too bad we still can't use any rods at all, at least in my opinion. AoI is going to be a nice change though http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

HFlowen
Sep 17, 2007, 09:04 PM
Wait... is the update out in JP now? List the other changes to other classes. xD

Lykos
Sep 17, 2007, 09:06 PM
Even without rods, Madoogs will free up some space on the palette regardless what you use them for... left-handed casting weapons are a godsend for techers without rods.

Zorafim
Sep 17, 2007, 09:07 PM
I still say they should have got S rank Madoogs instead of wands. It's a hybrid, for Pete's sake. Let it act like one!

Anduril
Sep 17, 2007, 09:09 PM
As a fT I am so happy about the Support Tech boost for the other classes. I'm so tired of having to hear, "Help! Heal me! I need the red buff! Ugg I'm poisoned, Heal me!" I'm an attack techer at heart so this will make partying a lot more enjoyable if a hybrid techer can buff on my same level.

Wallin
Sep 17, 2007, 09:11 PM
Oh, duh, I keep forgetting what Madoogs are. Guess we'll have to wait and see then.

youthisoverrated
Sep 17, 2007, 09:12 PM
i'm pretty excited about having shaddogs and maddogs. not to mention the fact that we get lvl 30 melee attacks. i'm just really happy to be part wartecher now =P

CelestialBlade
Sep 17, 2007, 09:14 PM
I'm still afraid WTs aren't going to be able to hold their own in melee once stuff beyond 12* weapons comes out. I'd trade those Wands for Claws or Spears any day, we're going to need that eventually.

Jarek
Sep 17, 2007, 09:15 PM
Wartecher was actually my first advanced job for my beast, but I eventually gave it up because I wasn't satisfied with how it played. These changes interest me enough though to warrant giving it another go come AoI.
Mostly I'm glad the support techs even out at 30 (besides AT) so that fortetechers are no longer obligated to be the only ones using them.

Xaeris
Sep 17, 2007, 09:16 PM
I'm happiest with the TP increase/attack tech upgrade. I mean, I guess the support is nice, but from the start, I was more smitten with the idea of tossing fireballs and ice floes than spreading pixie dust. At least now, melee won't trump attack teching for just about...well, everything. Hell, even on non-lightning type robots, melee could do more damage; it was just more PP efficient to chuck out the Razondes and Dambartas.

BanF
Sep 17, 2007, 09:34 PM
I like the WT as it is, and am damn glad it's going to become more adept with TECHNICs, as well as getting most of the nifty new weapons.

Sinue_v2
Sep 17, 2007, 10:18 PM
Level 30 support is what I wanted most. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

blkbeast
Sep 17, 2007, 10:18 PM
coo the best wartecher alive for 360 is only gonna get better lawl duh
id love 2 see dem ppl bad talk beast wartechers now!!!! kiss my black @$$ lol no jk

CelestialBlade
Sep 17, 2007, 10:30 PM
It occurs to me that the only Basic Class combination AoI will NOT offer is Hunter 5 / Force 3. Considering it looks like AoI will make Wartechers focus more on Attack Technics with Melee as backup (which is completely opposite of my Beast Wartecher, unfortunately), I really wish we had that HU5/FO3 class, something that was primarily Melee with Attack and Support Technics as backup. But I guess it all depends on how much being limited to A-rank weaponry is going to hurt.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 17, 2007, 10:39 PM
Make no mistake, Typheros, melee will still outdamage attack techs on a WT (especially a Beast one). However, the discrepancy will be somewhat smaller.

If you want teching with melee as a backup, you're looking for AT.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-17 20:39 ]</font>

Tita
Sep 17, 2007, 10:41 PM
yes, i'm pleased. F Beast WT says: yayz!

the % increase on our base stats is extremely welcomed. that's definetly what i'm most pleased with, along with madoogs and whips!
it's most likely the main thing that will elevate WT from mediocrity.
and screw swords... give me AXES! /selfish wish http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

we're still the only class without a 40 level (correct me if i'm wrong)

iirc: skill/bullet/tech
WT: 30/20/30
GT: 20/40/20
PT: 40/40/0
FG: 40/30/0
FF: 40/20/0
FT: 20/40/40
fG: 20/40/0

i guess giving WTs a 40 somewhere with the upgrade would make them broken (?)

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 17, 2007, 10:44 PM
Yes, WT is still the only class without any PA type "maxed," but it is tied for first in terms of overall total max PA levels, and is the most diverse of them all.

Zorafim
Sep 17, 2007, 10:46 PM
You know, this actually doesn't look too bad. Maybe I should consider playing this class a bit...

SolomonGrundy
Sep 17, 2007, 10:46 PM
the update validates my choice as a newman WT. the s rank wands, madoogs, and level 30 attack and support means I can still lean heavily on techs as my primary damage source.

Swords? meh. I would have prefered S Rank claws/dual claws. For thoe who wanted S rank spears...you all are just being greedy.

-Ryuki-
Sep 17, 2007, 10:47 PM
WarTecher = HUmar.

End of story.

Lamak
Sep 17, 2007, 10:50 PM
I`ve been WT forever and I have to say, the changes are a godsend. Oh yeah GB and lvl 30 buffs plox.

BahnKnakyu
Sep 17, 2007, 11:05 PM
The increased support is my biggest concern. I hate being gimped in that department.

A rank swords = omg. I learned how awesome Tornado Break was for PP efficiency, this is gonna rock.

Kanju
Sep 17, 2007, 11:37 PM
I'm liking the addition of Swords to the list. I'm also liking the TP increase, which is cool since I won't be doing as crap damage with my TECHNICs now. And Lv. 30 buffs + Madoogs = One slot for all my buffs, instead of... three.

However, I'm disappointed that Wartechers won't get S-Rank Madoogs, but finally having Resta and Reverser on the same slot as my weapons is much, much better than having to switch constantly to wands. And I don't see the reason behind having Shadoogs added, but all the more power to them, I guess.

Kimil
Sep 18, 2007, 12:47 AM
Double Claws are the only thing fF have left as their personal S-rank, and Single Claws would invade AF.
Spear/Axe/Sword/Double Saber S rank : Getting Greedy
Twin Saber jumps at FG
All the ranged wear is too far out of our class type
Rods invade fT
Madoogs invade AT ( though I wish I had them anyways)

... Knux are a high accuracy melee weapon, like the daggers that balance our lack of bae ATA... why not these? or hell, the basic Saber?

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 12:59 AM
My wartecher will be quite awesome when I can be assed to go level him.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: omegapirate2k on 2007-09-17 23:42 ]</font>

-Ryuki-
Sep 18, 2007, 01:03 AM
Knuckle would be nice, but then PT gets them too. S rank.

Powder Keg
Sep 18, 2007, 01:20 AM
Wartechers should have S-rank single sabers, and either Twin or single claws.

-Ryuki-
Sep 18, 2007, 01:25 AM
I say Twin Claws, but that makes FF lose their exclusitivity.

I know that's not a word, but who cares =x

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 01:26 AM
Why do people want claws? They suck, seriously.

If I could choose one more S-Rank for WT, it'd be Spear. However, WT no longer really needs it, so I'm good.

-Ryuki-
Sep 18, 2007, 01:27 AM
Uhm.

Have you gotten all three Twin Claw PA's past lvl 21? If not, you have no say in whether or not they suck.

End of story.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 01:41 AM
I used claws (and twins) for about a day each, before realizing that their normal attacks were decent, but their PAs took way too much PP and did the same thing as Buten, or less.

Furthermore, claws look horrid, so whatever.

drizzle
Sep 18, 2007, 01:57 AM
112% ATP, that's very close to FiG ATP, hot. SE4 Foie at 112% TP, hel yeh. I like.

-Ryuki-
Sep 18, 2007, 02:00 AM
My Vahra Claws and my Fuka-Misaki don't look horrible. I don't know what you're babbling about.

The PP cost really doesn't matter much if you have Vahra Claws, and they also regen enough.
FF get PP-reduction on them, too, so if you're playing with them as another class, that's a no-no.

I think, if anything, you're really being unfair to those Twin Claws, and Parn should whoop your heiny.
He's the one who got me into Twin Claws in the first place.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 02:10 AM
On 2007-09-18 00:00, RyukiZero wrote:

FF get PP-reduction on them, too, so if you're playing with them as another class, that's a no-no.

Last I checked, this was a WT thread.


And meh, Daggers still look so much better than Claws, and I don't even like the A-Rank Daggers.

drizzle
Sep 18, 2007, 02:23 AM
Twin Claws are fine on a WT :/ I happen to like the look too personally. Only bukuu and the single claw uppercut are expensive, the others are average... nothing a stack of photon chargers can't handle. No they aren't the absolute best but I don't want to be stuck with just 2 weapon types, gimme some variety http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

-Ryuki-
Sep 18, 2007, 02:28 AM
On 2007-09-18 00:10, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-09-18 00:00, RyukiZero wrote:

FF get PP-reduction on them, too, so if you're playing with them as another class, that's a no-no.

Last I checked, this was a WT thread.


And meh, Daggers still look so much better than Claws, and I don't even like the A-Rank Daggers.

Nice of you to dodge that.

Not.

Xaeris
Sep 18, 2007, 02:38 AM
If we were to get another S rank, I'd throw my vote in with single and twin claws as well. Not because I like them (a neat looking guy in a suit coat tearing into things like Wolverine...doesn't quite look right), but because they're quite honestly the only other things that make sense for a Force hybrid.

Scion
Sep 18, 2007, 03:36 AM
On 2007-09-17 23:25, RyukiZero wrote:
I say Twin Claws, but that makes FF lose their exclusitivity.

I know that's not a word, but who cares =x




On 2007-09-18 00:28, RyukiZero wrote:

On 2007-09-18 00:10, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-09-18 00:00, RyukiZero wrote:

FF get PP-reduction on them, too, so if you're playing with them as another class, that's a no-no.

Last I checked, this was a WT thread.


And meh, Daggers still look so much better than Claws, and I don't even like the A-Rank Daggers.

Nice of you to dodge that.

Not.



Ummm... He really didn't dodge that...

In fact, you're contradicting yourself and he's calling you out on it.

Anyways, I just recently decided to make the change of going WT in AoI, because I realized that hybrid classes are what I enjoy most. I guess now that I somewhat got the hang of this class, I'm loving it. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Now, I'm just thinking of all the Skill->Tech combos I'll be able to do with a single arm and a madoog... >:D

-Ryuki-
Sep 18, 2007, 04:07 AM
Touche.

EphekZ
Sep 18, 2007, 04:46 AM
are these updates for sure? We get swords and lvl 30 support techs finally? YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

edit: by the way, where did you get this information?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: EphekZ on 2007-09-18 03:05 ]</font>

Fure_Rakune
Sep 18, 2007, 10:17 AM
Well with the new AoI thread, isnt it confirmed that WT gets Lv. 20 support?
This thread is propaganda!

BanF
Sep 18, 2007, 10:53 AM
WT gets 30 support and attack.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 10:55 AM
On 2007-09-18 08:53, BanF wrote:
WT gets 30 support and attack.



On 2007-09-18 07:44, Mewn wrote:
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7923/wtcapsnd2.jpg

According to this, Wartechers only get level 20 Support techs... can any JP player confirm that this is true?



Let's just wait and see. Less than 10 days for the AoI JP release anyway.

mll
Sep 18, 2007, 10:59 AM
Yep its looking like we're staying lvl. 20 support
and they dropped Guntecher bullets down to 30.
Looks like they're going to continue gimping hybrid classes except fighgunner.

Lamak
Sep 18, 2007, 11:02 AM
Ugh, where's my support?

Menochi
Sep 18, 2007, 11:02 AM
On 2007-09-18 08:59, mll wrote:
Yep its looking like we're staying lvl. 20 support
and they dropped Guntecher bullets down to 30.
Looks like they're going to continue gimping hybrid classes except fighgunner.




Don't count it out just yet. All the classes got their abilites pushed up to 30, but nothing shows above 30 because they can't until you have illuminus.

Its really odd that wartecher hasn't gone up to 30, but its still possible that they hold that back to give wartecher the extra 10 other classes get in AoI.

Xaeris
Sep 18, 2007, 11:04 AM
Well, I was looking forward to my week as god, but it seems they had the sense to hold back one of the caps until AoI. So sad.

Kylie
Sep 18, 2007, 11:22 AM
LV30 combat. As a girl that likes her combat weapons, WT was very frustrating because you couldn't get the final bit of a skill. Now with LV30 skills and LV30 support, I just might turn to WT for my main class. *still undecided*

Lamak
Sep 18, 2007, 11:23 AM
So um what exactly are the PA caps? >_>

Xaeris
Sep 18, 2007, 11:28 AM
Currently? The pic reads 30 skills, 20 bullets, 30 attack tech and 20 support tech.

DAMASCUS
Sep 18, 2007, 11:31 AM
Now that I think about it the inclusion of A rank swords is completely useless...except for the occasional need for Spinning Slash XD

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 11:35 AM
On 2007-09-18 09:31, DAMASCUS wrote:
Now that I think about it the inclusion of A rank swords is completely useless...except for the occasional need for Spinning Slash XD



I'm rather happy about it, myself, because I can now use all the crea weapons on my wartecher, since he's my only character who can use crea weapons, its nice that he can use all of them and still be effective.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: omegapirate2k on 2007-09-18 13:31 ]</font>

Lamak
Sep 18, 2007, 11:35 AM
On 2007-09-18 09:31, DAMASCUS wrote:
Now that I think about it the inclusion of A rank swords is completely useless...except for the occasional need for Spinning Slash XD

Well Gravity Break is the main reason swords will own. Maybe the occasional Torando or Spinning.

-Ryuki-
Sep 18, 2007, 11:46 AM
Back then, my idea of abusing a WT's power in terms of melee, was to use PA's that didn't require
the 3rd combo to be efficient. I'm referring to say.. Bogga Zubba, 1H weapons, and possibly some
like.. Moubu, which doesn't need the 3rd combo to be efficient (1st and 2nd combo make it seem
like an endless combo anyway).

But, with AoI, WarTecher's limits are unbound. It's like Dragon Ball, and you're showing your "true"
power.

Shush, I was making analogy. I don't like DBZ anymore =P

Guildenstern
Sep 18, 2007, 12:02 PM
I don't understand. Everyone who is posting screenshots and info over in the other thread (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=154347&forum=20&start=0) are showing 20 capped Support TECH. From where exactly does the 30 cap support TECH info coming from, and can we get it confirmed from someone? All the info and pictures in the other thread suggest otherwise. (O___O)??

-Ryuki-
Sep 18, 2007, 12:23 PM
It's from the new magazine scan. Or rather, the new info.

NexGen
Sep 18, 2007, 12:24 PM
From what people have been saying, the fact that it is now level 20 was a very, very recent change. Don't know if it will go back to what Sega had said, but as of now - the other classes got their boost, WT didn't get that to 30. Sorry!

Kimil
Sep 18, 2007, 12:43 PM
The information came from a brand new magazine scan from this topic (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=154228&forum=20&14):
http://www.tgfcer.com/club/attachments/forumid_20/20070915_5fa9b378f79ff79a5cb0Ue5OaoQAaH21.jpg
Wartecher is the 6th class down the list, and the PA Numbers: 30/20/30/30 match up to be Melee/Range/Attack TECH/ Support Tech

The only information NOT confirmed is the stat Changes, this were the stats in AoI for WT but this may have increased or decreased.

Reipard
Sep 18, 2007, 12:43 PM
It could have been a typo for all we know at this point.

I guess the best thing is to wait for AOI. Personally I don't think level 30 support is necessary on them; they need the boost brought over to their melee to match with Guntechers.

But if Sega wants them to have level 30 support, then have level 30 support they will. It just seems to be downgrading back to how PSO had things where the ability to support was valued little because just about everyone could do it.

Guildenstern
Sep 18, 2007, 12:53 PM
...Is my katakana rusty or does your pic say that Fortetecher is only getting level 30 support TECH?

How accurate is this scan? XD

Kimil
Sep 18, 2007, 01:02 PM
On 2007-09-18 10:53, Guildenstern wrote:
...Is my katakana rusty or does your pic say that Fortetecher is only getting level 30 support TECH?

How accurate is this scan? XD



Only AT gets 40 support now

-Ryuki-
Sep 18, 2007, 01:02 PM
It's the most-recent scan of AoI that we've gotten.

And you read correctly. AcroTecher is what gets the high-level support techs.

CelestialBlade
Sep 18, 2007, 01:06 PM
On 2007-09-18 10:53, Guildenstern wrote:
...Is my katakana rusty or does your pic say that Fortetecher is only getting level 30 support TECH?

How accurate is this scan? XD



This is a good thing. Finally, another class can do something Technic-related that a Fortetecher can't. It's about time.

Dragwind
Sep 18, 2007, 03:23 PM
On 2007-09-18 11:06, Typheros wrote:

On 2007-09-18 10:53, Guildenstern wrote:
...Is my katakana rusty or does your pic say that Fortetecher is only getting level 30 support TECH?

How accurate is this scan? XD



This is a good thing. Finally, another class can do something Technic-related that a Fortetecher can't. It's about time.



I'd have to agree. At least people who like to support can have some defensive stats to help them do so.

Also great for WT's to have the lvl30 support since they have the defensive stats to be in the middle of a mob buffing all the fighters and debuffing the enemies.

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 03:34 PM
Now all acrotecher needs is hexa strike and its all set...

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 03:50 PM
On 2007-09-18 10:43, Reipard wrote:
It could have been a typo for all we know at this point.

I guess the best thing is to wait for AOI. Personally I don't think level 30 support is necessary on them; they need the boost brought over to their melee to match with Guntechers.

But if Sega wants them to have level 30 support, then have level 30 support they will. It just seems to be downgrading back to how PSO had things where the ability to support was valued little because just about everyone could do it.

Unfortunately, I'm thinking it was a misprint.

But no, WT really does need to have level 30 support. Without it, the class is just as useless as it currently is (more really, given the PA-Disk thing).

With 30 support, WT is valuable to the party because it is a decent melee class with decent support ability.

With 20 support, WT is useless because it is a decent melee class with the worst support in the game. In other words, make yourself useful to the party and switch to either AT or fF.

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 03:52 PM
Level 30 support techs or not, I plan to only heal myself, screw everyone else XD

pikachief
Sep 18, 2007, 03:54 PM
On 2007-09-17 18:58, Zorafim wrote:
As a non-WT, I can say I'm glad that I can see someone besides a fT support me. Also, I can support with any type of job I want now. I'd say these buffs are overall win, even if they don't directly pertain to me.



but GT have lvl 30 support spells and AT have lvl 40 support http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif did u forget about us GT's? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Reipard
Sep 18, 2007, 04:15 PM
Unfortunately, I'm thinking it was a misprint.

But no, WT really does need to have level 30 support. Without it, the class is just as useless as it currently is (more really, given the PA-Disk thing).

Just as useless? Wartechers aren't useless. They're pretty decent support.

Actually, rewind that. No class is really USELESS in this game because any of them can get through a mission. But I don't think Wartecher has any sort of gimp either way. It's getting a TP boost and attack techs that match our current Fortetecher on top of support that means more than level 10 support (IE- it's actually worth having over an item). I'd hardly call that useless.


With 30 support, WT is valuable to the party because it is a decent melee class with decent support ability.

With 20 support, WT is useless because it is a decent melee class with the worst support in the game. In other words, make yourself useful to the party and switch to either AT or fF.

And the ability to crowd control with Swords and Techs while not losing access to their support. Just because it is the current worst in the game doesn't mean it's useless to a party. It's essentially a matter of choosing which kind of support works better for the party once it's above level 10.

As it is, with 30 support, Wartecher, Acrotecher, Guntecher and Fortetecher pretty much ALL become partial support classes with little difference between any of them in terms of what kind of support they can provide. Specializing in support for anyone would be useless (IE- Acrotecher), because just about everyone can do what they do.

Remember, it's not like getting a weapon specialty. When you get 30 in a kind of tech, you get the whoooole kit and kaboodle.

I see Wartecher as a kind of self-sufficient class. It's got the melee to do good damage, the techs for range and to take out stuff it can't fight with melee and enough healing to support itself and provide a bonus to anyone working with them.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-09-18 14:18 ]</font>

Dragwind
Sep 18, 2007, 04:22 PM
Good post Reipard.

Saying WT is useless is rather ignorant. A WT can own mobs while barely taking a scratch due to the high hp, decent dfp, and high evasion. Because of these stats, a WT can also take in lots of aggro, and tank-tech in a mob.

Being able to cast Gi techs in a mob does massive damage input the more targets you hit. Beign able to last longer in a mob than a fT while casting those techs also gives you an upper hand.

Got a weak or low lvled character? The WT can be there to easily buff, debuff, and support the weaker person, as well become a meatshield.

Bows are also a great form of range attack, and having bullet at 11+ will also make cards more useful as well.

Having the extra tp and atp boost is a bit rigged, imo.

Think strategy with numbers, instead of just numbers.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 04:55 PM
No.

Unless there is no techer at all in the party, it would always be favorable to have a fF/FG/PT/AF instead of a WT, and this is now a valid consideration, since the PA-Disk thing facilitates rapid and frequent class changing.

EDIT: Forgot to mention something. If there's no techer at all, you will be spending most of your time supporting anyway, so the only logical thing to do would be to use AT in this situation.

If you want to focus on the attack techs, just switch over to AT. You gain much better support and better attack techs, at the cost of only a relatively small amount of melee ability. You also loose some defense, but to be honest, that isn't worth much, since dying is inconsequential.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-18 14:59 ]</font>

Dragwind
Sep 18, 2007, 05:02 PM
Yes.

Even if there is no fT, a WT can fill the role almost as well considering having the same support, except a slightly lower resta, which heals everyone quite considerably anyhow. You're also trying to say that a PT is going to be more useful than a WT? I can understand that PT's have very good traps, but a WT's melee and tech damage would still outshine that alongside with support.

Also, what if you're not trying to focus on pure damage? That's the reason they have damage heavy forte classes. What if you're playing a mission with all fighters, and they're all ignorant and don't have/want to switch? You can support them, melee with them, and if you have enemies resistant to melee? Oh, hey. WT has techs.

Being able to last longer, and resta to keep others living longer is definitely a plus in any party, always.

Xaeris
Sep 18, 2007, 05:02 PM
"A relatively small amount of melee ability?" You do understand that there's more to an Acrotecher's deficit in melee ability than their skill cap, don't you? There's also the issue that their striking weapon selection is...unimpressive, to put it nicely.

mll
Sep 18, 2007, 05:03 PM
I see fuzzy logic's point.
If support stays at 20 we're really not going to be much use in a party.
We don't throw out enough damage to help that way. We won't be able to buff others any more than a really really cheap item. We wont be consistant enough with SE's to be too helpful there either.
We'll remain self sufficient and a good solo class. But WT needed to be improved for AOI and ... it hasn't really. All the improvements have just kept us in line with the other classes.

But I actually think it'll go up to 30 when AoI actually arrives to make up for the other classes not getting lvl 40 pa's. And i'd be reasonably satisfied with WT in comparison to other classes if it does.

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 05:04 PM
I'm still waiting to see final WT and AT stat boosts at 10.

McLaughlin
Sep 18, 2007, 05:05 PM
On 2007-09-18 13:34, omegapirate2k wrote:
Now all acrotecher needs is hexa strike and its all set...



My Win detector just exploded.

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 05:10 PM
On 2007-09-18 15:05, Obsidian_Knight wrote:

On 2007-09-18 13:34, omegapirate2k wrote:
Now all acrotecher needs is hexa strike and its all set...



My Win detector just exploded.



Your welcome.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 05:17 PM
On 2007-09-18 15:02, Dragwind wrote:
Yes.

Even if there is no fT, a WT can fill the role almost as well considering having the same support,Lolwut. fT has level 30 support. If WT has only 20 support, it is several orders of magnitude worse at support than fT.


You're also trying to say that a PT is going to be more useful than a WT? I can understand that PT's have very good traps, but a WT's melee and tech damage would still outshine that alongside with support.Support that is no better than 50 Meseta items? Right. PT is extremely, extremely good in AoI. Stronger weapons, stronger stats, high versatility, and godly powerful traps.


Also, what if you're not trying to focus on pure damage? That's the reason they have damage heavy forte classes.I'm not focusing on damage alone. All I ask for is a class with decent melee and decent support. What we might end up with is a class with mediocre melee and support that isn't even worth using, apart from the occasional Resta.


What if you're playing a mission with all fighters, and they're all ignorantHold it right there. If I'm playing with ignorant people, I tell them they suck, leave the party, and find better players.


and don't have/want to switch? You can support them, melee with them, and if you have enemies resistant to melee? Oh, hey. WT has techs.In such a case, AT would be better.


Being able to last longer, and resta to keep others living longer is definitely a plus in any party, always.

Again, AT. Sure, a Beast AT won't be as hardy as a Beast WT, but he still won't go down that easy, especially since his Resta will be twice as powerful.
On 2007-09-18 15:02, Xaeris wrote:
"A relatively small amount of melee ability?" You do understand that there's more to an Acrotecher's deficit in melee ability than their skill cap, don't you? There's also the issue that their striking weapon selection is...unimpressive, to put it nicely.
Not really. As it currently stands, the best melee weapons for use as a WT are.....surprise, Daggers. Sure, AT doesn't have Spear (or Sword), I'll grant you that one, but AT will fare very well with Daggers and Whips.
On 2007-09-18 15:03, mll wrote:
I see fuzzy logic's point.
If support stays at 20 we're really not going to be much use in a party.
We don't throw out enough damage to help that way. We won't be able to buff others any more than a really really cheap item. We wont be consistant enough with SE's to be too helpful there either.
We'll remain self sufficient and a good solo class. But WT needed to be improved for AOI and ... it hasn't really. All the improvements have just kept us in line with the other classes.

But I actually think it'll go up to 30 when AoI actually arrives to make up for the other classes not getting lvl 40 pa's. And i'd be reasonably satisfied with WT in comparison to other classes if it does.

Thanks for actually stopping and thinking about it, instead of blindly defending the class.


Make no mistake, I like WT a lot, but that doesn't mean I cannot admit it sucks with 20 support.

Dragwind
Sep 18, 2007, 05:26 PM
I was saying all this in reference to IF we get the 30 support. I suppose that was an error on my part, but my opinon still stands. You keep comparing every feature WT has to almost all the other types.

WT does not rival a particular class, like you keep trying to compare it to each one.

The fact of the matter is, if WT has lvl 30 support, you can support just as well as a fT if not better due to defensive stats (sans resta, even though its barely weaker)

You can still nuke with techs, if the occasion comes where there are melee resistant enemies, and vice-versa.

Now you mention versatility on PT? I said that before, WT is a versatile class. Not a forte.

You say you want decent melee and support? WT already has decent melee, and with lvl30 skills its still going to be pretty decent. Even if support stays at 20, boo-hoo. There's always resta, reverser, and other techs.

I'm not "blindly defending the class" as I'm rather trying to show you, it's not "useless" as you say.

There is no "useless" class in the game. Especially when *gasp*, you're playing for the fun of it rather than to argue about what it has, doesn't have, and what you want.

Xaeris
Sep 18, 2007, 05:35 PM
Not really. As it currently stands, the best melee weapons for use as a WT are.....surprise, Daggers. Sure, AT doesn't have Spear (or Sword), I'll grant you that one, but AT will fare very well with Daggers and Whips.

I didn't say they wouldn't do okay in melee. I said that a wartecher isn't just slightly better at it.

Contrary to popular belief, Buten Shuren-zan isn't the omni skill to answer every situation in the game. Sure, it can be made to get most jobs done but it can be bested by another skill quite often.

The more weapons a type lacks proficiency in, the less of the skills they have that were all but tailor made for certain kinds of enemies and formations. Oh they'll melee just fine, and probably equal a WT that's just phoning it in; but we can be a damn sight better at it than them if we care to at anytime.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xaeris on 2007-09-18 16:09 ]</font>

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 05:40 PM
On 2007-09-18 15:26, Dragwind wrote:
I was saying all this in reference to IF we get the 30 support. I suppose that was an error on my part, but my opinon still stands. You keep comparing every feature WT has to almost all the other types.I guess you just misunderstood me.


If WT gets level 30 support, it will be an excellent class for any balanced party.
If WT gets level 20 support, it will be useless in about every party.


WT does not rival a particular class, like you keep trying to compare it to each one.

The fact of the matter is, if WT has lvl 30 support, you can support just as well as a fT if not better due to defensive stats (sans resta, even though its barely weaker)If WT gets 30 support, then fT is clearly the worst support techer in the game. That is why it made so much more sense to have AT support at 50, fT at 40, and all other techers at 30.


You can still nuke with techs, if the occasion comes where there are melee resistant enemies, and vice-versa.Yes, and attack techs will be more worthwhile now.


Now you mention versatility on PT? I said that before, WT is a versatile class. Not a forte.Of course. While WT and PT are both versatile, PT has the advantage of being good at both, compared to WT which is only decent (if WT has only 20 support, that is).


You say you want decent melee and support? WT already has decent melee, and with lvl30 skills its still going to be pretty decent. Even if support stays at 20, boo-hoo. There's always resta, reverser, and other techs.I agree that WT has decent melee already and that is only improving (though really staying the same relative to the rest of the classes). What I don't agree on is that 20 support would be decent, because it quite clearly would not.





On 2007-09-18 15:35, Xaeris wrote
I didn't say they wouldn't do okay in melee. I said that a wartecher isn't just slightly better at it.

Contrary to popular belief, Buten Shuren-zan isn't the omni skill to answer every situation in the game. Sure, it can be made to get most jobs done but it can be bested by another skill quite often.

The more weapons a type lacks proficiency in, the less of the skills they have that were all but tailor made for certain kinds of enemies and formations. Oh they'll melee just fine, and probably equal a WT that's just phoning it in; but we can be a damn sight better at it than them if we care to at anytime.

In my experience, a Dagger and a Spear cover all melee situations in the game. For general damage, there's Buten and Robado. For flipping things, Shunbu. For sheer damage to bosses and multi-target enemies, Daggas.

If WT can be a "damn sight better" than AT at melee, AT is 5 damn sights better at support than WT, if WT ends up with only 20 support.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-18 15:44 ]</font>

Xaeris
Sep 18, 2007, 06:08 PM
A dagger and spear may be able to used for the entire game, but using the skills found on other weapons will cover the entire game much better than putting the burden on a mere four skills. Shunbu can knock things up, but Rising Crush does it much better by having a more generous turn radius and inflicts more damage at the same time. Daggas is, and probably, forever will be idiotproof dps, but a two step Assault Crush will beat it (especially with its new modifier) on a single target (e.g, Magas) and its lower execution time makes escaping boss attacks much more likely (e.g Fakis).

I don't really understand how you're convinced that a 5% difference in our buffs makes us go from awesome to useless.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 06:32 PM
It's not that it's 5%. The actual increase doesn't even matter. The problem is that having only 20 support makes the entire support side of WT useless except for Resta.

When was the last time you saw a Guntecher buffing people?



Oh, also, I find Hishou Jinren-zan to be better than Rising Crush, and Assualt Crush takes way too much PP for what it does. The first two parts are only one hit each right? Yeah, that's terrible. Even with the buff, Daggas would beat it. However, that's inconsequential, since Gravity Break now covers that.

Lamak
Sep 18, 2007, 06:32 PM
All I really have to say without using a wall of words is, if WT get the 30 Support Techs they are basically a full class. All around good, and they can produce nice damage and support. If they don't, well it'll end up like how it is now in PSU Vanilla. It's a good class, but you aren't really necessary.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 06:35 PM
On 2007-09-18 16:32, Lamak wrote:
All I really have to say without using a wall of words is, if WT get the 30 Support Techs they are basically a full class. All around good, and they can produce nice damage and support. If they don't, well it'll end up like how it is now in PSU Vanilla. It's a good class, but you aren't really necessary.

Pretty much exactly what I mean.

Lamak
Sep 18, 2007, 06:37 PM
On 2007-09-18 16:35, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-09-18 16:32, Lamak wrote:
All I really have to say without using a wall of words is, if WT get the 30 Support Techs they are basically a full class. All around good, and they can produce nice damage and support. If they don't, well it'll end up like how it is now in PSU Vanilla. It's a good class, but you aren't really necessary.

You Win~!

Yay. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 06:44 PM
On 2007-09-18 16:32, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Oh, also, I find Hishou Jinren-zan to be better than Rising Crush, and Assualt Crush takes way too much PP for what it does. The first two parts are only one hit each right? Yeah, that's terrible. Even with the buff, Daggas would beat it. However, that's inconsequential, since Gravity Break now covers that.


Assault crush attacks one target two times for the first two parts, and the third part hits 2 enemies 4 times.

Although it's a good thing wartechers get swords so they can take advantage of gravity break http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 06:45 PM
On 2007-09-18 16:45, BlueFoo wrote:
sorry this may have been said already, but when do all of these changes occur


In two months or so I'm guessing, although I can't know for sure.

BlueFoo
Sep 18, 2007, 06:45 PM
sorry this may have been said already, but when do all of these changes occur

Reipard
Sep 18, 2007, 06:46 PM
I guess you just misunderstood me.

If WT gets level 30 support, it will be an excellent class for any balanced party.
If WT gets level 20 support, it will be useless in about every party.

I'm sorry, it is nothing against you, but I cannot see eye-to-eye with what you are thinking. And you are doing little to convince me outside of making blanket statements.


If WT gets 30 support, then fT is clearly the worst support techer in the game. That is why it made so much more sense to have AT support at 50, fT at 40, and all other techers at 30.

Whaa? How in the world does that work? Fortetecher has more TP, PP and overall POWER behind their Resta. There is absolutely no reason they would be the worst at support.


Yes, and attack techs will be more worthwhile now.

Then why is support the breaking point? Why is it the end-all be-all just because of Acrotecher? We have no idea what their final stats are like at this point, so there's no way of knowing if they'll be better or worse than WTs.


If WT can be a "damn sight better" than AT at melee, AT is 5 damn sights better at support than WT, if WT ends up with only 20 support.

I honestly don't think Acrotecher will have the kind of final ATP everyone thinks it does. All its weapon selection and everything I see as a means to actually protect itself since a class that can't solo in PSU has way too much of a handicap.


Thanks for actually stopping and thinking about it, instead of blindly defending the class.

I think that's a little more than rude and belligerent of you -_-.


When was the last time you saw a Guntecher buffing people?

Level 10 and Level 20 are a VAST difference. Guntechers get level 10 buffs, which is next to worthless. Items can do everything they can so much better. At level 20 support nobody can say that.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 06:51 PM
Buff items give the equivalent of level 20 buffs. If three classes have higher support than WT, that means you'll never see a WT use any other support techs than Resta/Reverser, because there will almost always be someone in the party with better support. Think about it.


And yes, fT would be worst with support (if WT had 30), since it lacks the defensive ability to take hits while casting buffs/debuffs. It wouldn't be worst by much, but it would still be worst.


I still say they need to make a class with 40/0/0/40. >:(


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-18 16:52 ]</font>

Reipard
Sep 18, 2007, 07:00 PM
Buff items give the equivalent of level 20 buffs. If three classes have higher support than WT, that means you'll never see a WT use any other support techs than Resta/Reverser. Think about it.

Wartecher's buffs aren't meant to replace a higher support class'. That is rather the point; if you hold level 20 support by itself compared to 30, it's not going to mean much. But when you put it in the context of level 30 attack techs, 20 skills/bullets and a huge variety of weapons with the kind of stats Wartecher has, it means a lot more.

Fortetechers and Guntechers are quite the ranged damage dealers and have a high likelihood of not being in the melee to provide support at crucial moments. That's why their support level is so high (at least now, with regards to GTs http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif), because they need to not be in the thick of things or they will be at a disadvantage.

Acrotecher aside, who may or may not have anything better to do than heal, Wartechers can provide that kind of bonus without compromising their offensive in the least. They don't need to stop doing what they're doing, rush into the crowd, spam Resta (by which point everyone will have taken matters into their own hands anyway, most likely) and then try to find a way back out so they can do damage again.

And if no other support class is around, level 20 support is something of a life saver. People don't HAVE to waste their items and money because a sufficient healer is available.


And yes, fT would be worst with support (if WT had 30), since it lacks the defensive ability to take hits while casting buffs/debuffs. It wouldn't be worst by much, but it would still be worst.

This doesn't exactly jive with your 'dying is inconsequential' point when confronted with a loss in defense O_o.

And even then, the point still stands that a Fortetecher isn't meant to be in the thick of things.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-09-18 17:01 ]</font>

Xaeris
Sep 18, 2007, 07:05 PM
On 2007-09-18 16:32, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
It's not that it's 5%. The actual increase doesn't even matter. The problem is that having only 20 support makes the entire support side of WT useless except for Resta.

When was the last time you saw a Guntecher buffing people?



Oh, also, I find Hishou Jinren-zan to be better than Rising Crush, and Assualt Crush takes way too much PP for what it does. The first two parts are only one hit each right? Yeah, that's terrible. Even with the buff, Daggas would beat it. However, that's inconsequential, since Gravity Break now covers that.



It's been quite some time since I've seen a GT buff. That's really quite irrelevant seeing as their buffs are weaker than -tides. Besides, wasn't it you that tried to convince me that Retier is better than a Retaride even if you're the only one who'll get a benefit from it because it's cheaper?

You think a skill that only commences knockup on the last hit of of the first step, can only be turned in between steps, and actually weakens in damage as you progress through steps is better than a skill that knocks up right from the get go and can be smoothly turned at any time? And then you say that Assault Crush is one hit apiece on the first two steps?

If you haven't even picked up a pair of twin sabers, you shouldn't be commenting on them.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 07:06 PM
Right, but, by and large, support in PSU is carried out in the front lines, not from the rear. On the other hand, attack techs are used from a range.

That's why It always made more sense to me for WT to have 20/30 for techs and GT 30/20.

Sinue_v2
Sep 18, 2007, 07:11 PM
Not to mention that a GT's bread and butter is spreading status effects - which level 30 attack techs are more helpful with. The debuffs (support) are area of effect techs centered on the caster, which makes WT's ideal for spreading them since they're on the frontlines.

GT's and WT's have always seemed like Bodyguard classes to me. Guntechers have the ranged capabilities to take care of the FO's who are on the outskirts of battle while spreading status effects. Techers have lower HP anyhow, so the lvl 10 Resta cap isn't as much of a burden. Wartechers tend to take care of the Tanks since they're fighting shoulder to shoulder with them. They have higher HP and take far more damage, so a higher Resta capability makes sense. Rangers don't need a bodyguard class since they're mobile enough to move between the front-line and rear without really reducing their combat efficency.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2007-09-18 17:18 ]</font>

Reipard
Sep 18, 2007, 07:18 PM
Right, but, by and large, support in PSU is carried out in the front lines, not from the rear. On the other hand, attack techs are used from a range.

That's why It always made more sense to me for WT to have 20/30 for techs and GT 30/20.

Outside of my disagreement, I do see where you come from on that.

I always thought the other way around; Wartechers would be the combat magic/skill specialist while Guntechers would be the bullet/support. I really think this whole thing would be alleviated as far as this balance goes if WT just got level 40 skills or techs. It seems lopsided to give Guntechers level 40 bullets AND 30 support AND 20 techs.

But we're still only seeing a partial picture at the moment. As the caps rise higher and higher, I think a more pronounced difference each way will present itself.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 07:20 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:05, Xaeris wrote:
If you haven't even picked up a pair of twin sabers, you shouldn't be commenting on them.

Sorry, I don't know everything.

I use Twin Sabers frequently on my Figunner, but I've stayed away from Assault Crush because it uses PP too quickly, and only hits one target. I greatly prefer Splendor Crush.


Regardless, Twin Sabers aren't much of a WT weapon anyway, so this is off-topic.

CelestialBlade
Sep 18, 2007, 07:32 PM
I buff anyway, level 10 Buffs are better than nothing. Huzzah for totally being useful in AoI, though :D I still get thanks from people who aren't completely ungrateful, so that's motivation enough for me to buff.

I think Guntechers can easily stand on their own, even as is. Level 10 Resta is better than no Resta at all, and the fact that they can use Support Technics alone means they're good for soloing. When properly equipped they can stand on their own in terms of ATP, too. All these points only improve in AoI, so hopefully we stop getting looked down upon.

There's nothing wrong at all with level 20 Support on Wartechers, there's no possible way it obsoletes them. What they NEED is a couple of additional S-ranks. When we start seeing 12*+ weapons floating around, it might be difficult for a WT to keep up in the Melee race, so we'd be reduced to grinded A-ranks and Attack Technics. That might end up being laughable deep into the expansion. Freaking Protransers will be laughing at us. We get S-rank Daggers, sure, but I think we need one additional S-rank that has a lot of ATP. Not necessarily asking for an Axe or even a Spear, but Claws/Twin Claws would totally make my day. Excellent knock-up/blow-away PAs, and great ATP.

Xaeris
Sep 18, 2007, 07:41 PM
It's fine if you don't know everything. The problem starts when you don't know something, and rather than look it up or ask, you fill in your ignorance with a wild guess and then attempt a refutation with that.

They're no less of a WT weapon than any other weapon I have an A in. Your concern is that wartecher becomes a redundant and inferior acrotecher without a tier 3 cap because you feel that wartecher's don't have enough distinguishing talents in melee to make them more than slightly better at it than acrotechers. I'm demonstrating to you that's not true using the advantage wartechers have in a diverse weapon selection. I'd say that's on topic.

Reipard
Sep 18, 2007, 07:41 PM
I buff anyway, level 10 Buffs are better than nothing. Huzzah for totally being useful in AoI, though http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif I still get thanks from people who aren't completely ungrateful, so that's motivation enough for me to buff.

I think Guntechers can easily stand on their own, even as is. Level 10 Resta is better than no Resta at all, and the fact that they can use Support Technics alone means they're good for soloing. When properly equipped they can stand on their own in terms of ATP, too. All these points only improve in AoI, so hopefully we stop getting looked down upon.

I play a Guntecher too and while my support is always nice in a pinch, it's never really enough when it counts. The buffs just don't last long enough and barely seem worth recasting and everyone is more content to use items over taking a Resta from me.

I'm incredibly happy Guntechers are getting this buff in support.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 07:42 PM
Well, we clearly cannot agree on this issue, but let me make the following prediction:

If WT gets 30 support, the number of WTs will increase substantially.
If WT gets 20 support, the nuber of WTs will slightly diminish.

Keep in mind that WT is already probably the least popular class.


On 2007-09-18 17:41, Xaeris wrote:
It's fine if you don't know everything. The problem starts when you don't know something, and rather than look it up or ask, you fill in your ignorance with a wild guess and then attempt a refutation with that.
I thought the way I phrased my post made it clear that it was purely my opinion, and that I was merely guessing on Assault Crush. I was thinking 1x2, 1x2 but it was 2x1, 2x1. It amounts to the same damage either way.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-18 17:46 ]</font>

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 07:46 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:42, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Well, we clearly cannot agree on this issue, but let me make the following prediction:

If WT gets 30 support, the number of WTs will increase substantially.
If WT gets 20 support, the nuber of WTs will slightly diminish.


Uh-oh

pokefiend
Sep 18, 2007, 07:47 PM
Before this thread continues w/ its crazy battle, lets all get one thing clear... Wartechers are getting lvl 30 support techs coming Aoi. ST has obviously decided to give every class 10 extra PA cap levels for each Aoi character. It's ST's way of saying "BUY THE DAMN EXPANSION ALREADY!" In Aoi, FFs, and fig characters get lvl 40 skills, FG, GT, and PT characters get lvl 40 bullets, FT characters get lvl 40 attack technics, and finally WT characters get lvl 30 support!

E.N.D O.F D.I.S.S.C.U.S.S.I.O.N.!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pokefiend on 2007-09-18 17:50 ]</font>

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 07:48 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:46, omegapirate2k wrote:

On 2007-09-18 17:42, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Oh noes, there is more down here


Uh-oh


A bold move, I know.

Don't quote me on it, though. Afterall, "It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."




On 2007-09-18 17:47, pokefiend wrote:
Wartechers are getting lvl 30 support techs coming Aoi. ST has obviously decided to give every class 10 extra PA cap levels for each Aoi character.
Except they haven't said anything of that nature, and it is more likely a misprint on the part of Dengeki.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-18 17:50 ]</font>

Reipard
Sep 18, 2007, 07:52 PM
Before this thread continues w/ its crazy battle, lets all get one thing clear... Wartechers are getting lvl 30 support techs coming Aoi. ST has obviously decided to give every class 10 extra PA cap levels for each Aoi character. It's ST's way of saying "BUY THE DAMN EXPANSION ALREADY!" In Aoi, FFs, and fig characters get lvl 40 skills, FG, GT, and PT characters get lvl 40 bullets, FT characters get lvl 40 attack technics, and finally WT characters get lvl 30 support!

E.N.D O.F D.I.S.S.C.U.S.S.I.O.N.!

Sheesh, calm down. This discussion's been 90% civil, thank you very much. And it's pretty much over and done with anyway.

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 07:53 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:48, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Don't quote me on it, though. Afterall, "It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."


Where is that quote from? I find it rather hilarious.

Xaeris
Sep 18, 2007, 07:54 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:42, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
I thought the way I phrased my post made it clear that it was purely my opinion, and that I was merely guessing on Assault Crush. I was thinking 1x2, 1x2 but it was 2x1, 2x1. It amounts to the same damage either way.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-18 17:46 ]</font>


You can't have an "opinion" on math.

2x1 is the same as 1x2 on a single target? You sure you don't want to rethink that?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 07:54 PM
Yogi Berra.

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 07:55 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:54, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Yogi Berra.


EYYYY BAM BAM?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 07:56 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:54, Xaeris wrote:
You can't have an "opinion" on math.

2x1 is the same as 1x2 on a single target? You sure you don't want to rethink that?

I was thinking "one hit on two targets," but it is actually "two hits on one target." Explain to me how those are different, keeping in mind that I'd much rather use Buten on any single-target enemy.

pokefiend
Sep 18, 2007, 07:58 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:48, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-09-18 17:47, pokefiend wrote:
Wartechers are getting lvl 30 support techs coming Aoi. ST has obviously decided to give every class 10 extra PA cap levels for each Aoi character.
Except they haven't said anything of that nature, and it is more likely a misprint on the part of Dengeki.


But what you're arguing seems less logical and ethical. Why would ST give original PSU WT characters all of its PA caps but leave all of the other classe's PA caps inferior? What I'm suggesting is as obvious as 1+1=2.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pokefiend on 2007-09-18 17:59 ]</font>

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 08:00 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:58, pokefiend wrote:


But what you're arguing seems less logical and ethical. Why would ST give original PSU WT characters all of its PA caps but leave all of the other classe's PA caps inferior? What I'm suggesting is as obvious as 1+1=2.


Make no mistake, I'd like to believe you are correct.

I'm just being skeptical.

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 08:02 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:58, pokefiend wrote:

On 2007-09-18 17:48, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-09-18 17:47, pokefiend wrote:
Wartechers are getting lvl 30 support techs coming Aoi. ST has obviously decided to give every class 10 extra PA cap levels for each Aoi character.
Except they haven't said anything of that nature, and it is more likely a misprint on the part of Dengeki.


But what you're arguing seems less logical and ethical. Why would ST give original PSU WT characters all of its PA caps but let all of the other classes PA caps hindered? What I'm suggesting is as obvious as 1+1=2.


Actually, the only caps hindered are the ones that are to be 40 in the expansion, and as current PSU players likely won't be able to have 40 skills, only expansion players will, which is why they aren't giving those out until the expansion.

Although there is some sense in your argument it isn't as guaranteed as you make it out to be.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: omegapirate2k on 2007-09-18 18:03 ]</font>

pokefiend
Sep 18, 2007, 08:05 PM
...but its misleading too many ppl. Regardless of how confident you are, it must be noted there's a higher chance of ST raising Aoi WT's Support Tech PA cap to lvl 30 then it not happening at all.

Xaeris
Sep 18, 2007, 08:07 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:56, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
I was thinking "one hit on two targets," but it is actually "two hits on one target." Explain to me how those are different, keeping in mind that I'd much rather use Buten on any single-target enemy.



Okay. On a single target, the actual Assault Crush racks up four hits with the first two steps. Your version of Assault Crush would only rack up two hits on that target with the same first two steps. So, the actual Assault Crush deals double the damage of your perception when used on a single target.

You may prefer to use Buten, and that's fine. On that same note, some people prefer to play human fortetechers. And that's fine too.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 08:07 PM
On 2007-09-18 18:05, pokefiend wrote:
it must be noted there's a higher chance of ST raising Aoi WT's Support Tech PA cap to lvl 30 then it not happening at all.

Except that isn't a fact, so don't state it as if it were.

In my opinion, there's about a 90% chance it was a misprint.

pokefiend
Sep 18, 2007, 08:15 PM
On 2007-09-18 18:07, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-09-18 18:05, pokefiend wrote:
it must be noted there's a higher chance of ST raising Aoi WT's Support Tech PA cap to lvl 30 then it not happening at all.

Except that isn't a fact, so don't state it as if it were.

In my opinion, there's about a 90% chance it was a misprint.


90%?

*snickers* now you're being silly. Why do you feel so strongly it's a missprint?

... BTW I think there's a 1% chance of ST not giving Aoi WTs a PA cap edge over their original PSU WT self, while giving all of the other classes one.

omegapirate2k
Sep 18, 2007, 08:19 PM
On 2007-09-18 18:15, pokefiend wrote:

On 2007-09-18 18:07, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-09-18 18:05, pokefiend wrote:
it must be noted there's a higher chance of ST raising Aoi WT's Support Tech PA cap to lvl 30 then it not happening at all.

Except that isn't a fact, so don't state it as if it were.

In my opinion, there's about a 90% chance it was a misprint.


90%?

*snickers* now you're being silly. Why do you feel so strongly it's a missprint?

... BTW I think there's a 1% chance of ST not giving Aoi WTs a PA cap edge over their original PSU WT self, while giving all of the other classes one.


He has as much justification for thinking the way he thinks as for you thinking the way you think, nothing has been stated one way or another, so stop going around toting your answer to be the only logical one.

DreamLocke
Sep 18, 2007, 08:25 PM
Whatever...I hope it's not a misprint because I almost fell out of my chair when I read that WT's will be getting 30 support.

We still need another S-rank weapon. Why are WT's being punished so much for being jack of all trades when they do not excel in any particular aspect? Throw us another S-rank, Sonic Team! Hint: Madoogs or Whips.

pokefiend
Sep 18, 2007, 08:27 PM
And he has just a right to discredit what I'm suggesting, as I'm doing now. Besides, it's not like I'm quote replying anyone and editing their post w/ "blah blah blah" (like I've witnessed many times before from others).

The fact of the matter is, my suggestion (which I originally got from espio) IS more logical than Fuzzy's. ST's cap increases supports it, a crediable magazine scan supports it as well.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pokefiend on 2007-09-18 18:29 ]</font>

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 08:29 PM
And since when has ST ever been logical?

>_>

Zorafim
Sep 18, 2007, 08:33 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:47, pokefiend wrote:
Before this thread continues w/ its crazy battle, lets all get one thing clear... Wartechers are getting lvl 30 support techs coming Aoi. ST has obviously decided to give every class 10 extra PA cap levels for each Aoi character. It's ST's way of saying "BUY THE DAMN EXPANSION ALREADY!" In Aoi, FFs, and fig characters get lvl 40 skills, FG, GT, and PT characters get lvl 40 bullets, FT characters get lvl 40 attack technics, and finally WT characters get lvl 30 support!

E.N.D O.F D.I.S.S.C.U.S.S.I.O.N.!





An argument doesn't form a conclusion unless it's a conclusive deductive argument. Yours is an inductive argument. I suggest you work on this before continuing.

pokefiend
Sep 18, 2007, 08:44 PM
... Only if I was arguing -_^

MSAksion
Sep 18, 2007, 09:10 PM
Now that everyone has level 30 BUFF/DEBUFF at least now ForteTechers can focus more on KILLING squads (primary job) rather than calling for buffs every block (now everyone can)

Zorafim
Sep 18, 2007, 09:25 PM
Your statement was clearly an argument, so yes. You were arguing.

Sinue_v2
Sep 18, 2007, 09:38 PM
No he wasn't.
http://www.mwscomp.com/mpfc/argument.jpg (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915)

PJ
Sep 18, 2007, 10:24 PM
I didn't bother to read the thread.

I wish it still had the 20/30 offense/support tradeoff with Guntecher, ala

Wartecher
Skills 30
Bullets 20
Attack 30
Support 20

Guntecher
Skills 20
Bullets 30 (Are they getting 40 bullets? That might explain it...)
Attack 20
Support 30

Ah well. I don't care. It's not like the WT's will support anyways. Crappy FTs didn't, crappy WTs won't.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 10:28 PM
Sure, but the fact that 90% of PSU players suck is hardly a justification for making a class suck. >_>

PJ
Sep 18, 2007, 10:30 PM
Why would giving them 20 support techs make them suck? 1 level down, bitch please.

EDIT: Now for those of you who's gonna take that as, "Getting what I want"

I just want Guntecher and Wartecher to be strange flipsides of eachother.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PJ on 2007-09-18 20:31 ]</font>

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 10:35 PM
On 2007-09-18 20:30, PJ wrote:
Why would giving them 20 support techs make them suck?
Read the last few pages. We've been over this.

pokefiend
Sep 18, 2007, 10:40 PM
On 2007-09-18 19:25, Zorafim wrote:
Your statement was clearly an argument, so yes. You were arguing.



No, my intial statement was never meant to engage into an argument, it was to enlighten others the more than likely reason behind why ST didnt give WTs lvl 30 support techs in this update.

beatrixkiddo
Sep 18, 2007, 10:41 PM
When you're convinced you're right, you don't argue. You state as the god-given truth.

PJ
Sep 18, 2007, 10:43 PM
Still, 30 support is not going to make or break the class, come the expansion.

When you consider all the things wrong with the class besides this, that is.

Zorafim
Sep 18, 2007, 11:29 PM
On 2007-09-18 20:40, pokefiend wrote:
No, my intial statement was never meant to engage into an argument, it was to enlighten others the more than likely reason behind why ST didnt give WTs lvl 30 support techs in this update.



ar·gu·ment [ahr-gyuh-muhnt]
–noun

4. a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argument)


On 2007-09-18 19:38, Sinue_v2 wrote:
No he wasn't.
http://www.mwscomp.com/mpfc/argument.jpg (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915)





Saved.

-Tidus_415-
Sep 18, 2007, 11:29 PM
Wartechers are a offensive class of hunter/force. The LV20 support is for youwhenever you need it. Not for anyone else. What the hell you need LV30 for. You arent a babysitter. FT's and AT's are.

Kimil
Sep 18, 2007, 11:35 PM
On 2007-09-18 21:29, -Tidus_415- wrote:
Wartechers are a offensive class of hunter/force. The LV20 support is for youwhenever you need it. Not for anyone else. What the hell you need LV30 for. You arent a babysitter. FT's and AT's are.



More often then not, I AM the babsitter though

Lamak
Sep 18, 2007, 11:44 PM
>_> @ thread

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2007, 11:50 PM
On 2007-09-18 21:44, Lamak wrote:
>_> @ thread

Lolya.

Good for +1s at least.

SolomonGrundy
Sep 19, 2007, 12:21 AM
I agree with fuzzy. Come AoI, anything less than level 30 support is useless.

right now, 20 is 'acceptable' not great: they tend to run out in mid fight a fair bit and it's the second best option.
Come AoI, with level 40 buffs available, 20 will be the new '10' AND there will be 3 other classes able to do better.

The the current version ,I don't see Guntechers using thier buffs (the few GTs that I see), in a party, unless it is block 1, or right before a boss.




but I don't understand why WT need swords. Or why you guys don't feel that twin swords are no good on a WT. Rising crush is great crowd control with an unfairly good damage modifier.

EphekZ
Sep 19, 2007, 12:27 AM
On 2007-09-18 21:29, -Tidus_415- wrote:
Wartechers are a offensive class of hunter/force. The LV20 support is for youwhenever you need it. Not for anyone else. What the hell you need LV30 for. You arent a babysitter. FT's and AT's are.



Wartechers are just as capable of "babysitting" while being a full offensive. Wartechers having only level 20 support techs is nonsense( no I'm not talking about the scan and what not) they'd be utterly useless with them. Also, level 20 support techs wastes their ability for S-rank wands. When I first heard about their level 20 Support techs I was, well, outraged. Only the fact that they get swords and, possibly, level 30 supports makes them useful again.

edit:


but I don't understand why WT need swords.

I think swords, before AoI, was what WT was missing. it has a good base ATP and you don't need to spam your PA to hit multiple enemies. I like sword since it doesn't need the PA to be useful and do good damage.



Or why you guys don't feel that twin swords are no good on a WT. Rising crush is great crowd control with an unfairly good damage modifier.

IMO, twin sabers are just inefficient. However, after AoI they may have some use since before they needed their 3rd move to actually be of use.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: EphekZ on 2007-09-18 22:31 ]</font>

Xaeris
Sep 19, 2007, 01:54 AM
I never to fail to find it amusing how people think just calling something their opinion works as an impregnable defense for any statement.

pikachief
Sep 19, 2007, 02:20 AM
On 2007-09-18 23:54, Xaeris wrote:
I never to fail to find it amusing how people think just calling something their opinion works as an impregnable defense for any statement.



pfft thats YOUR opinion >.>

pokefiend
Sep 19, 2007, 06:10 AM
On 2007-09-18 21:29, Zorafim wrote:

On 2007-09-18 20:40, pokefiend wrote:
No, my intial statement was never meant to engage into an argument, it was to enlighten others the more than likely reason behind why ST didnt give WTs lvl 30 support techs in this update.



ar·gu·ment [ahr-gyuh-muhnt]
–noun

4. a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argument)

... =/ you win there, but even still. I was being deductive through my first post anyway. By explaining another more likely reasoning as to why ST didnt give WTs lvl 30 support techs, I've deducted Fuzzy's less supported, and less logical, argument.

BTW I too love dictionary.com

de·duc·tion

3. The drawing of a conclusion by reasoning; the act of deducing.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pokefiend on 2007-09-19 04:11 ]</font>

Reipard
Sep 19, 2007, 07:39 AM
Everyone wants level 30 support techs and claims Wartecher will be useless without them, but I still have yet to see a reason besides 'Everyone else can do it'.

That's exactly why Wartecher SHOULDN'T have 30 support >_<. They're not (supposed to be) a support-oriented class.

By this point, I think people just want their characters to do everything http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

Shiro_Ryuu
Sep 19, 2007, 07:47 AM
I like Wartecher whether it has lv 20 or 30 support techs. But I'm glad that they get lv 30 attack spells, this is really awesome for my female Newman who likes to do both melee and nukes.

drizzle
Sep 19, 2007, 07:49 AM
Yeah, give me a Forteacroguntechfighter class. I don't mind about level 20 support techs. It's only a small difference for buffs and it means lower PP cost for resta http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: drizzle on 2007-09-19 05:49 ]</font>

DreamLocke
Sep 19, 2007, 10:17 AM
I don't know...I run support with my GT at times but I find I do it far more with my WT.

30 support makes sense especially for those of us with Beast WTs who are more useful as a tank/frontline healer/support. Beasts's nukes are okay with the right equipment but their melee usually does more damage.

Since WT's don't really do the damage a FT would do with techs, or a gunner would do with SE4's, WT's need a break. 30 support is a nice start...how about two more S-ranks?

Sychosis
Sep 19, 2007, 10:45 AM
I'm not normally a gambling man, but I'd put money on WT getting 30 in support techs in the expansion. The reason is simple, if they were 30/20/30/30 they would be broken in the current PSU. You have to remember that balance (as far as ST's definition goes anyway :/) must also be maintained for non expansion players as well. The highest cap in PSU: Vanilla for 3 of the 4 PA types along with the second highest cap in the other? Sorry, that is broken.

Averaging the two TECHNIC caps into one and adding the PA caps together we see:
Fortefighter: 30+20+0 = 50
Fortegunner: 20+30+0 = 50
Fortetecher: 10+30+30 = 70
Fighgunner: 30+30+0 = 60
Guntecher: 10+30+25 = 65
Complete AoI Wartecher: 30+20+30 = 80
Incomplete AoI Wartecher: 30+20+25 = 75
Protranser: 30+30+0 = 60

Now of course some discretion has to be used. Stats and S rank weapon allocation are not accounted for. For example the stats of a Fortetecher do not lend themselves to using skills or bullets very effectively, the stats of a Protranser do not allow them to use particular weapons quickly if at all, etc. But if the AoI WT was present in all its glory it would have decent stats, good weapon usage, and very high PA level caps. They needed to do something to maintain some balance.

Anyway, that's my reasoning.

Zorafim
Sep 19, 2007, 10:56 AM
On 2007-09-18 17:47, pokefiend wrote:
Before this thread continues w/ its crazy battle, lets all get one thing clear... Wartechers are getting lvl 30 support techs coming Aoi.

The conclusion of your argument.



ST has obviously decided to give every class 10 extra PA cap levels for each Aoi character.It's ST's way of saying "BUY THE DAMN EXPANSION ALREADY!" In Aoi, FFs, and fig characters get lvl 40 skills, FG, GT, and PT characters get lvl 40 bullets, FT characters get lvl 40 attack technics,

Your premis.


and finally WT characters get lvl 30 support!

Your conclusion.


[b]E.N.D O.F D.I.S.S.C.U.S.S.I.O.N.!

The assumption of a conclusive deductive argument.


Let me rephrase your argument.


All classes gain +10 to all skills.
Wartecher is a class.
Therefor, Wartecher gains +10 to all skills.

If your premises were true, then Fortetecher would get lv40 support techniques, and protranser would gain lv40 melee arts. This in itself is a deductive argument, and obviously incorrect. However, you could also phrase it like this:

All classes gain boosts to some skills
Support techs are a skill
Wartecher is a class
Therefor, wartecher may gain support skills

This is an inductive argument, and is correct. Wartecher may gain skills, and may not. Until you can gain another premise, your statement is not conclusive.

In other words, don't ever do this again:


E.N.D O.F D.I.S.S.C.U.S.S.I.O.N.!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zorafim on 2007-09-19 08:57 ]</font>

omegapirate2k
Sep 19, 2007, 11:18 AM
Hel yeh.

desturel
Sep 19, 2007, 12:28 PM
On 2007-09-18 22:27, EphekZ wrote:
Also, level 20 support techs wastes their ability for S-rank wands.

Huh? As a fortetecher I buff and debuff with either a granarodoc or with B/C rank rods. Using S-rank wands/rods for support is a waste of cash. Heck I carry 4 10 grinded batanara (3* yohmei) for gi-resta when I run Fakis S2. Saves me recharge costs. If I'm using my uransara, it's for foie or diga. Sometimes even barta (barta 28... almost there. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif ). It's definitely not for support.

SolomonGrundy
Sep 19, 2007, 12:35 PM
Am I the only one who did not understand sychosis's post?

desturel
Sep 19, 2007, 12:38 PM
On 2007-09-19 08:56, Zorafim wrote:
If your premises were true, then Fortetecher would get lv40 support techniques


And level 40 bullets. Remember that Fortetecher are getting the shaft on bullets. Guntechers are the new bow masters and as a fortetecher with level 30 bow (fire, ice, and dark, level 21 earth, level 24 light) and card bullets (dark, lightning, earth), I'm extremely tempted to go to Guntecher on the expansion with the new support tech levels.

Sychosis
Sep 19, 2007, 01:03 PM
On 2007-09-19 10:35, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Am I the only one who did not understand sychosis's post?



Basically, the total PA cap, weapon selection, and stats for WT would be too unbalanced in the original game if WT had their lvl 30 support.

pokefiend
Sep 19, 2007, 02:11 PM
On 2007-09-19 08:56, Zorafim wrote:

On 2007-09-18 17:47, pokefiend wrote:
Before this thread continues w/ its crazy battle, lets all get one thing clear... Wartechers are getting lvl 30 support techs coming Aoi.

The conclusion of your argument.



ST has obviously decided to give every class 10 extra PA cap levels for each Aoi character.It's ST's way of saying "BUY THE DAMN EXPANSION ALREADY!" In Aoi, FFs, and fig characters get lvl 40 skills, FG, GT, and PT characters get lvl 40 bullets, FT characters get lvl 40 attack technics,

Your premis.


and finally WT characters get lvl 30 support!

Your conclusion.


[b]E.N.D O.F D.I.S.S.C.U.S.S.I.O.N.!

The assumption of a conclusive deductive argument.


Let me rephrase your argument.


All classes gain +10 to all skills.
Wartecher is a class.
Therefor, Wartecher gains +10 to all skills.

If your premises were true, then Fortetecher would get lv40 support techniques, and protranser would gain lv40 melee arts. This in itself is a deductive argument, and obviously incorrect. However, you could also phrase it like this:

All classes gain boosts to some skills
Support techs are a skill
Wartecher is a class
Therefor, wartecher may gain support skills

This is an inductive argument, and is correct. Wartecher may gain skills, and may not. Until you can gain another premise, your statement is not conclusive.

In other words, don't ever do this again:


E.N.D O.F D.I.S.S.C.U.S.S.I.O.N.!

I see...

I'm not certain if I should risk anymore time w/ an off-topic disscussion like this. Especially since you've utterly missinterpreted my initial post.

but...

On 2007-09-19 08:56, Zorafim wrote:All classes gain +10 to all skills.
Wartecher is a class.
Therefor, Wartecher gains +10 to all skills.

If your premises were true, then Fortetecher would get lv40 support techniques, and protranser would gain lv40 melee arts. This in itself is a deductive argument, and obviously incorrect.

If you would've analyzed my first post and the ones I posted afterward more thoroughly (and to put frankly, w/ more common sense) you'd realize what I implied was every class in Aoi will receive a +10 PA cap FOR ONLY ONE ATTRIBUTE against the original PSU classes. Even in the same post I express what I mean:


On 2007-09-18 17:47, pokefiend wrote:
In Aoi, FFs, and fig characters get lvl 40 skills, FG, GT, and PT characters get lvl 40 bullets, FT characters get lvl 40 attack technics, and finally WT characters get lvl 30 support!

Also if I was implying what you interpreted, I would've added:


On 2007-09-18 17:47, pokefiend wrote:
Wartechers are getting lvl 30 support techs coming Aoi. ST has obviously decided to give every class 10 extra PA cap levels for range, meelee, and if required support tech and attack tech, for each Aoi character.


I think I've now proven to you what I've meant, afterall you seem to be a very smart individual.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pokefiend on 2007-09-19 12:15 ]</font>

pikachief
Sep 19, 2007, 02:16 PM
i dont understand y this topic is still going wartchers dont get lvl 30 support..... end of story, can someone lock this i dont feel like being wrong then having to read any of this.

omegapirate2k
Sep 19, 2007, 02:17 PM
On 2007-09-19 12:16, pikachief wrote:
i dont understand y this topic is still going wartchers dont get lvl 30 support..... end of story, can someone lock this i dont feel like being wrong then having to read any of this.


Don't read it then.

Pillan
Sep 19, 2007, 02:35 PM
Really, the current argument is like saying Fortefighter won't get a level 40 skill cap just because it's current distribution is 30/20/0/0.

Does it mean they won't get an increase later? Could be, but we have a magazine that shows every class with 10+ in one of their PA types, so I would bet they do. I'm still betting the remaining PA cap changes are implemented at class level 11, personally.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 02:38 PM
On 2007-09-19 05:39, Reipard wrote:
Everyone wants level 30 support techs and claims Wartecher will be useless without them, but I still have yet to see a reason besides 'Everyone else can do it'.

That's exactly why Wartecher SHOULDN'T have 30 support >_<. They're not (supposed to be) a support-oriented class.

By this point, I think people just want their characters to do everything http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

Except clearly WT MUST be a support-oriented class, because it is pointless otherwise.

No one wants a class with decent melee and decent attack techs. That's lame and boring; all you do is hurt things.
We want a class with decent melee and decent support.

chibiLegolas
Sep 19, 2007, 03:26 PM
On 2007-09-18 17:18, Reipard wrote:
I always thought the other way around; Wartechers would be the combat magic/skill specialist while Guntechers would be the bullet/support. I really think this whole thing would be alleviated as far as this balance goes if WT just got level 40 skills or techs. It seems lopsided to give Guntechers level 40 bullets AND 30 support AND 20 techs.


Ppl seem to also forget that GT and WT balance aren't lop-sided cause (if I'm remembering correctly) GT (along with FT) are the ONLY 2 advance class to have a lvl 10 PA cap (skills). Even FF gets lvl 20 bullets.
WT sacrifice the lack of a lvl 40 PA just to be more well rounded.

As far as WT getting either 30 or 20 lvl support, I can see the pros and cons for both scenerios. But in no WAY are WT's obsolete if their support is stuck at 20.

And to say that (WT + 20 support) are inferior to AT is just rediculous. Are we forgetting that AT's only get 20 skills while WT get 30? Plus WT has more versatile melee selections than a AT.

If any WT + 20 support feels inferior to a AT, might it because you're FORCING yourselves to be limited in the melee weapons you choose to use? And of course, there's the base stats that we've still yet to learn for ourselves.

Kimil
Sep 19, 2007, 03:40 PM
I fully agree with Sychosis.

SolomonGrundy
Sep 19, 2007, 03:49 PM
No one wants a class with decent melee and decent attack techs. That's lame and boring; all you do is hurt things.
We want a class with decent melee and decent support.

I don't think that's true. What IS true is that a party without a fT typically wants a substitute. Pre AoI, WT is the only option, as GTs buff duration, and poor resta - while a help, often cannot support the whole party.

Post AoI, Two other classes step in to fill the fT role: guntechers, and Acrotechers. My gut tells me that it would be unfair to have WT go from 2nd best supporter to worst.

@sychosis: I now better understand your analysis, but it does not quite hold up. fT's break it in the current game, and GTs break it in the expansion.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-09-19 13:52 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-09-19 14:03 ]</font>

Kimil
Sep 19, 2007, 04:01 PM
(Triple post, please delete)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-09-19 14:16 ]</font>

Kimil
Sep 19, 2007, 04:01 PM
This is how I look at it:

fF gain 10 more melee in Aoi
fG gain 10 more ranged in Aoi
fT gain 10 more Attack tech in Aoi

Fig Gain 10 more melee in Aoi
GT gain 10 more ranged in Aoi
PT gain 10 more ranged in Aoi

... So What's so odd about WTs gaining 10 more Support in Aoi
when EVERY other pre-AoI class does not have their maximum caps yet either?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 04:04 PM
I got you the first time.


Yes, that would make sense.
However, a typo on the part of Dengeki makes just as much sense.

panzer_unit
Sep 19, 2007, 04:07 PM
I like 30/20/30/20 Wartecher. All you have to do is attack, attack, attack. Good attack tech and shooting and SE options for teams that are really heavy on melee, or enemies where melee isn't your best option.

There are THREE support-tech classes already, and they're all better set for support because they're not in the thick of things all the time the way WT will be. They're primarily casters, or mobile gunners, and can afford to keep an eye on teammates and move around to heal and buff people without having to get right out of the fight. The way I've seen things go in teams with my WT, it sucks when I get stuck on a team where I'm the crowd control AND the main healer. I'll be launching monsters and trying to keep stuff from attacking... when someone gets hurt I switch to resta and fix them up. So far so good, only the mobs we were fighting are rampaging all over other teammates now, because I haven't been out there flipping things over... I get stuck cranking resta until a whole bunch of monsters die and people stop getting roughed up as badly.

Kimil
Sep 19, 2007, 04:14 PM
(Someone please Erase two of the triple posts)

And No, It makes far more sense that WTs will be getting 10 more PAs levelsonce AoI comes around.

1) Incentive to Buy AoI (Market Reason)
2) For those who don't buy AoI, it'll keep WTs from being overpowered among the non-AoI players
-> 30/20/30/30 out of 30/30/30/30 = Over powered
3) Every single pre-AoI class is missing 10 levels of PAs, and will be getting these PA levels in Aoi

... A typo in a magazine as a anargument... doesn't convince me to think otherwise.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-09-19 14:21 ]</font>

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 04:15 PM
On 2007-09-19 14:07, panzer_unit wrote:
I like 30/20/30/20 Wartecher. All you have to do is attack, attack, attack.And that is boring, boring, boring. If you want to just do that, witch to a class that can attack, attack, attack better, like fF or FG.


There are THREE support-tech classes already, and they're all better set for support because they're not in the thick of things all the time the way WT will be.Except it's actually easier to support from the front lines than from a distance, but I guess you haven't realized that.


The way I've seen things go in teams with my WT, it sucks when I get stuck on a team where I'm the crowd control AND the main healer. I'll be launching monsters and trying to keep stuff from attacking... when someone gets hurt I switch to resta and fix them up.
Those are the types of situations that I love. If your teammates get overwhelemed hopelessy while you're casting Resta once, then you need to find a better team.

Sychosis
Sep 19, 2007, 04:16 PM
On 2007-09-19 13:49, SolomonGrundy wrote:
@sychosis: I now better understand your analysis, but it does not quite hold up. fT's break it in the current game, and GTs break it in the expansion.

That was what my "discretion" disclaimer towards the bottom is for. Fortetecher isn't broken because their stats for using skills/bullets are terrible. Its hard for them to equip decent weapons at any level, and when they *can* use them they are terrible with them despite the PA cap. The same holds true for post AoI Protransers.

Post AoI Guntechers do seem broken in my opinion. But I'm going to hold off on the pitchfork until everything is finalized.

Rayokarna
Sep 19, 2007, 04:18 PM
On 2007-09-18 10:43, Kimil wrote:
The information came from a brand new magazine scan from this topic (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=154228&forum=20&14):
http://www.tgfcer.com/club/attachments/forumid_20/20070915_5fa9b378f79ff79a5cb0Ue5OaoQAaH21.jpg
Wartecher is the 6th class down the list, and the PA Numbers: 30/20/30/30 match up to be Melee/Range/Attack TECH/ Support Tech

The only information NOT confirmed is the stat Changes, this were the stats in AoI for WT but this may have increased or decreased.





As a Protranser, why does this table worry me about our Skills PA...

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 04:20 PM
On 2007-09-19 14:18, Rayokarna wrote:

As a Protranser, why does this table worry me about our Skills PA...

Boo-hoo. You only get 30/40/0/0 now instead of 40/40/0/0. You're ridiculously broken either way.

Kimil
Sep 19, 2007, 04:20 PM
Because You now know you aren't Getting 40 lvl Melee? =) lol

Lamak
Sep 19, 2007, 04:22 PM
On 2007-09-19 14:20, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-09-19 14:18, Rayokarna wrote:

As a Protranser, why does this table worry me about our Skills PA...

Boo-hoo. You only get 30/40/0/0 now instead of 40/40/0/0. You're ridiculously broken either way.

lawl EX Traps, Traps, Higher ATP Modifier, and of wait, what is this? All S rank weapons. :|

SolomonGrundy
Sep 19, 2007, 04:28 PM
Post AoI Guntechers do seem broken in my opinion. But I'm going to hold off on the pitchfork until everything is finalized.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gifwise

Guildenstern
Sep 19, 2007, 04:37 PM
On 2007-09-19 14:01, Kimil wrote:
This is how I look at it:

fF gain 10 more melee in Aoi
fG gain 10 more ranged in Aoi
fT gain 10 more Attack tech in Aoi

Fig Gain 10 more melee in Aoi
GT gain 10 more ranged in Aoi
PT gain 10 more ranged in Aoi

... So What's so odd about WTs gaining 10 more Support in Aoi
when EVERY other pre-AoI class does not have their maximum caps yet either?

From what I understand they gain 10 more in AOI because the level 40 cap is unable to be implemented yet. That's why the 30 cap on skills that will become 40 in the expansion. All your examples are things that are necessarily capped at 30 now because 40 cap is impossible ATM. WT support TECH skill is not one of these.

What doesn't make sense is, if WT is meant to get 10 more levels in support TECH, why hasn't it been implemented yet? If their attack TECH has already been boosted to 30 and yet their support hasn't, the answer must lie somewhere beyond "Well, they'll do it in AOI!" There's no reason for them to postpone it until AOI unless it was restricted by the current level 30 PA cap, which it wouldn't be.

Also I know some FTs that are going to be a little mad when they find out they only get 30 support TECH. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif (But not me! XD)

Shiro_Ryuu
Sep 19, 2007, 04:39 PM
Yeah, Panzer has a good point, I find it that its easier for me to support as a Fortetecher or a Guntecher than it is as a Wartecher. As Fortetecher, I can easily focus on supporting, where as when I'm Wartecher, I find myself playing mostly offensively and doing resta mostly for myself. Also, I thought that a Wartecher's high defensive stats made for it to be able to afford to get in the action and heal the hunters that are getting hit alot, so they wouldn't need the long range of lv 30 support.

chibiLegolas
Sep 19, 2007, 04:41 PM
On 2007-09-19 14:15, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

There are THREE support-tech classes already, and they're all better set for support because they're not in the thick of things all the time the way WT will be.Except it's actually easier to support from the front lines than from a distance, but I guess you haven't realized that.

I agree to a certain point. But still think a resta 20 is STILL good on a WT. When you're up front with the melee players, you need LESS resta range since you're already next to them. A constant problem I had as a GT was that my lvl 10 resta was never large enough to even reach the hunters up front, even when I tho I purposely ran up to them and "thought" I was close enough.

Hopefully, with the TP/MST increase to WT in AoI, even IF WT gets 20 support, their resta is still good enough to reach their hunter brothers up front. While other support players with 30 can have more freedom with their larger tech range.
IMO, WT + 20 support = front line healers + debuffers.

Kimil
Sep 19, 2007, 04:41 PM
[b]On 2007-09-19 14:37, Guildenstern
From what I understand they gain 10 more in AOI because the level 40 cap is unable to be implemented yet. That's why the 30 cap on skills that will become 40 in the expansion. All your examples are things that are necessarily capped at 30 now because 40 cap is impossible ATM. WT support TECH skill is not one of these.

What doesn't make sense is, if WT is meant to get 10 more levels in support TECH, why hasn't it been implemented yet? If their attack TECH has already been boosted to 30 and yet their support hasn't, the answer must lie somewhere beyond "Well, they'll do it in AOI!" There's no reason for them to postpone it until AOI unless it was restricted by the current level 30 PA cap, which it wouldn't be.




Here are the reasons why the JP WTs don't have the max support levels yet:
1) Incentive to Buy AoI, if they don't they don't maximize their Class's abilities. (Market Reason)
2) For those who don't buy AoI, it'll keep WTs from being overpowered among the non-AoI players
-> 30/20/30/30 out of 30/30/30/30 = Over powered (until the 40 level PAs a released)

Also, I with how much they with-held from us on the disk, I would not be surprised if the lvl 40 PA stats were present on the surrent game disk

Sinue_v2
Sep 19, 2007, 04:54 PM
Hopefully, with the TP/MST increase to WT in AoI, even IF WT gets 20 support, their resta is still good enough to reach their hunter brothers up front.

The problem is, that Resta and Reverser are only a small part of teching support. Buffs and Debuffs aren't TP/MST reliant, and need actual LEVELS to increase their effectiveness. This is the real reason why WT's need increased support so that they can buff the frontline fighters when and if runs out without requiring the FO's to put themselves in danger. They also have the HP to stand in the epicenter of a bio-monster shitstorm and cast debuffs, something I almost NEVER see FT's or GT's doing. Now granted, those are some pretty PP expensive techniques, so they can't be cast constantly anyhow. You don't need them against Koltova and Distova - but they DO need to be cast on heavier hitting enemies such as Vaharas, for example. This is a prime role for a WT that none of the current classes can effectively accomplish.

Guildenstern
Sep 19, 2007, 04:55 PM
On 2007-09-19 14:41, Kimil wrote:

[b]On 2007-09-19 14:37, Guildenstern
From what I understand they gain 10 more in AOI because the level 40 cap is unable to be implemented yet. That's why the 30 cap on skills that will become 40 in the expansion. All your examples are things that are necessarily capped at 30 now because 40 cap is impossible ATM. WT support TECH skill is not one of these.

What doesn't make sense is, if WT is meant to get 10 more levels in support TECH, why hasn't it been implemented yet? If their attack TECH has already been boosted to 30 and yet their support hasn't, the answer must lie somewhere beyond "Well, they'll do it in AOI!" There's no reason for them to postpone it until AOI unless it was restricted by the current level 30 PA cap, which it wouldn't be.




Here are the reasons why the JP WTs don't have the max support levels yet:
1) Incentive to Buy AoI, if they don't they don't maximize their Class's abilities. (Market Reason)
2) For those who don't buy AoI, it'll keep WTs from being overpowered among the non-AoI players
-> 30/20/30/30 out of 30/30/30/30 = Over powered (until the 40 level PAs a released)

Also, I with how much they with-held from us on the disk, I would not be surprised if the lvl 40 PA stats were present on the surrent game disk



But, doesn't GT already have their max support TECH skill boosted already to the AOI level? And why should they worry about 'overpowering' it if AOI comes out so soon in JP anyway? And if WT have already received their higher TP mod and they have 30 cap attack TECH, then doesn't that kind of wreck the argument that they're trying to avoid 'overpowering' them? They now conceivably nuke at the same skill level as an FT (although obviously not as strong). Why avoid boosting this one thing where they've already taken care of other classes skills?

Am I missing something? o__o;;

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 05:02 PM
On 2007-09-19 14:41, chibiLegolas wrote:

Hopefully, with the TP/MST increase to WT in AoI, even IF WT gets 20 support, their resta is still good enough to reach their hunter brothers up front. While other support players with 30 can have more freedom with their larger tech range.
IMO, WT + 20 support = front line healers + debuffers.


Oh wow, Resta is still good.

That isn't nearly enough, as Sinue said.

No one wants a mediocre melee fighter with weak Resta when they could have an excellent melee fighter or an excellent supporter instead. Or, if they actually do give WT 30 support, then we'll be mediocre melee with decent support, which is actually the ideal situation (barring my ridiculous 40/0/0/40 fantasy).

Sinue_v2
Sep 19, 2007, 05:12 PM
I'd think 30/10/20/30 or 30/10/30/30 would be far better.

Seriously... WT's don't need fucking lvl 20 bullets. Cards? The only reason we have them is for a left-handed weapon to use while casting in lue of Madogs. Even with lvl 20 bullets, the status effects from them are going to weak sauce. Especially when you consider the lengths that AoI is going to to ENCOURAGE team-play - which means your gonna get bitched at for over-riding the GT, PT, and FG statuses. The damage done by 10 extra bullet levels is very negledgable. Ooooh.... you get an extra card! Big whoop... your ATA is mediocre, and you're wasting time when you could be doing more damage casting attack techs or spamming melee PA's. It's not a bread & butter weapon for WT's the way X-Bows are for GT's... not by a long shot. It's an ocassional attack while having your wand out at best.

Wartechers are not a ranged class. We have no buisness trying to do so. It's extremely telling that of our very few S-Ranks, we have NO ranged S-rank weapons. We have Melee and Teching S-ranks. That should tell you something.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2007-09-19 15:16 ]</font>

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 05:17 PM
Well, there's no denying that cards are the best way for a WT to damage melee-resistant enemies with a single target (e.g. Jarba).


But yeah, maybe people think 30/20/30/30 would be broken, which is silly. It's not broken, it's closer to "finally adequate."

Zorafim
Sep 19, 2007, 05:21 PM
The only way I'll bother with this class is if they either get the lv30 support, or S rank madoogs. As they stand now, they're simply too clunky. They could use much more than they already have, and the added support levels are simply a start.

It's a shame that the class I started off wanting to level has simply become a balanced class. Must all class have high bullet levels?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 05:24 PM
On 2007-09-19 15:21, Zorafim wrote:
The only way I'll bother with this class is if they either get the lv30 support, or S rank madoogs.
Whether you naysayers will believe it or not, this is exactly how 90% of the population will look at it.

WT is boring and pointless without sufficient support.

Xaeris
Sep 19, 2007, 05:31 PM
I ask of you doomsayers. If you're so enamored with support, what precisely is keeping you from becoming acrotechers? If wartecher has so little to offer to you as it is, then why not jump ship to the type that, apparently, melees just as well as a wartecher and has the most proficient support of all?

Zorafim
Sep 19, 2007, 05:31 PM
Well, I did come off from PLD in FFXI, so I kinda miss my healing and buffs (And heavy armor, and shiny equipment, and high level job abilities, and being the only one taking damage, and...). Either way, I'm fairly attracted to jobs who specialize in melee combat, with a small ability to use spells. Considering the closest thing I have here to that is fortefighter, I was pretty saddened. I was kind of hoping Wartecher would some day fill that gap, but I still don't see it.

Zorafim
Sep 19, 2007, 05:39 PM
'cause it doesn't melee as well as wartecher. It's a teching job.
There's not really an argument there.

Sinue_v2
Sep 19, 2007, 05:40 PM
If we wanted to jump ship to another class, we would have done so by now. The point is to fix Wartecher, not abandon it in favor of another class. Hell, why not just remove Wartecher from the game altogether and just replace it with Aerotecher?

Xaeris
Sep 19, 2007, 05:50 PM
Whoa, acrotechers meleeing as well as wartechers was a gem from earlier in the thread. It's certainly not the opinion I hold and I'd like to think that's bleedingly obvious to anyone who's been reading.

Now Sinue, you say fixing wartecher. Here's the thing though; the things you and others are clamoring for are found better in another type altogether whereas the type you're wishing to fix already offers something for a different playstyle. Were wartecher to become acrotecher+ lite as your proposed PA allotment makes it, there'd be nothing left for the player who wishes for a hybrid melee/tech attacker along the lines of fighgunner.

To put it another way. Your camp sounds like fighgunners who want rifles and grenade launchers added to the type and you, in particular, are the one offering that double sabers be taken away in order to justify it.

Zorafim
Sep 19, 2007, 05:58 PM
On 2007-09-19 15:50, Xaeris wrote:
To put it another way. Your camp sounds like fighgunners who want rifles and grenade launchers added to the type and you, in particular, are the one offering that double sabers be taken away in order to justify it.



Fighgunners are actually cool, though. If there was a fighgunner version of wartecher, I'd jump to it quite quickly.
Decent ranged weapons, and high skill with melee weapons that can be used along side them. Traps, high skill levels for both parts of the hybrid. If not for the fact that I hate the concept of fighgunner, I'd say that it's a near perfect class, and hybrids nicely. We just want something like this for wartecher.

I'm sorry, what was your argument again?

Kimil
Sep 19, 2007, 06:04 PM
On 2007-09-19 15:58, Zorafim wrote:
We just want something like this for wartecher.



We'll have that with AoI http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

30 level PAs for Melee/Attack Techs/Support Techs, 20 level PAs for Ranged. WT becomes the most hybrid of the hybrids http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-09-19 16:05 ]</font>

Xaeris
Sep 19, 2007, 06:09 PM
On 2007-09-19 15:58, Zorafim wrote:

Fighgunners are actually cool, though. If there was a fighgunner version of wartecher, I'd jump to it quite quickly.
Decent ranged weapons, and high skill with melee weapons that can be used along side them. Traps, high skill levels for both parts of the hybrid. If not for the fact that I hate the concept of fighgunner, I'd say that it's a near perfect class, and hybrids nicely. We just want something like this for wartecher.

I'm sorry, what was your argument again?



Oh my, you're a feisty one.

The flaw you've attempted you detect in my analogy is ...um, flawed. There's no question that fighgunners are a well designed hybrid and the model for which the rest of them should be molded after.

The fact that they're better designed would only be relevant were my analogy meant to illustrate that wartechers are fine as they are. Again, anyone who's been reading should find the notion of me saying that to be BS.

You see, the problem I have with the support WT camp is that the wartecher they want not only encroaches on territory that's already occupied, but it also leaves a vacuum in the territory they're leaving.

Yes, wartecher could still use improvements. However, turning it into an acrotecher...but better is not the way to go about it.

Zorafim
Sep 19, 2007, 06:09 PM
That's what we're debating, Kimil.

Besides, even with this, the class is too unspecialized for my taste. I hate balanced characters. I need specialization.

mll
Sep 19, 2007, 06:14 PM
I think WT should get 30 support just because it one of the few classes that beasts excel at.
Humans and Newmans will get by fine with 20 support
Beasts wouldn't even have an alternative in acrotecher because they'd be pretty rubbish at that too with acrotechers reliance on attack techs.

Kimil
Sep 19, 2007, 06:15 PM
I know that's what we're debating. I'm still convinced enough that WTs will get 30 Support in the Expansion enough to say what I said ( Since... blah blah every class is getting 10 extra levels in AoI, gives reason to get the expansion, and stops WTs from being Overpowered until the 40 level techs are out)

And I don't treat Wartecher as a non-specializing class, this is how I play it:

Support Hunter:
-High enough defensive stats to put self in danger to heal/buff party members
-Front Line Healer
-Main Healer
-De-buffer ( No one else seems to do this... )
-Secondary Buffer
-Melee damage
-Crowd Control
-SE's with Attack Spells

mll
Sep 19, 2007, 06:17 PM
Even if we did get 30 support, would that 'fix' wartecher though

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 06:34 PM
Why not Acrotecher? Because, unlike WT, AT focuses on attack techs more than on melee.


But it doesn't really matter. If WT doesn't get 30 support, I'll just spend most of my time with fF/AT. The only use for WT would be....yeah, can't think of one.

Kimil
Sep 19, 2007, 06:34 PM
On 2007-09-19 16:17, mll wrote:
Even if we did get 30 support, would that 'fix' wartecher though



Yes

IMO, the other Fixs (boosts in Stats, 30 Melee and Attack Techs, s rank Wands, mags) already bring WT to be a good class.

30 level Support techs would finalize it as my perfect class

Sinue_v2
Sep 19, 2007, 06:44 PM
Here's the thing though; the things you and others are clamoring for are found better in another type altogether

There is nothing a GunTecher can do substancially better than any other class either when you break their job down to their individual components. They can't cast better than FO's, they are absolutely not suited for melee, they can't lay traps the way Protranser can, and their limited weapon pallet leaves them trailing dedicated Ranger classes.

That's the entire point of a hybrid class, isn't it? It doesn't matter if another class can do a certain task better. It's about filling a niche in the party.


Were wartecher to become acrotecher+ lite as your proposed PA allotment makes it, there'd be nothing left for the player who wishes for a hybrid melee/tech attacker along the lines of fighgunner.

I don't play FiGunner, so I don't quite get the point you're referring to. As you trying to imply that WT 30 support would kill damage dealing tech casting on a WT? That's not the case, as there is always room for improvement on attack teching, even with level 20 attack techs capped. Attack techs are MST/TP dependant, so if you want to increase your damage output you can equip units, weapons, and raise levels. The only thing that would be really stuck is area of effect (not a huge deal since you're toe to toe with the monsters) and status effect levels (which is not a WT's job). There is NO counterpart for this when it comes to buffing and debuffing. Once you hit level 11 with buffs and debuffs, you're done. Nothing you ever do can ever improve their effectiveness - which is salt in the wound considering that come AoI, if WT doesn't get lvl 30 support, they will be the WORST support class in PSU outside of the ForteFighter spamming Star Atomisers.

I don't see the addition of AeroTecher as a detriment to WarTecher support, in the same way I don't see ForteGunner as a detriment to a GunTecher's current role.

Personally, if anything, I would rather see GunTechers as a mirror to Wartechers. Each one with their strengths suited to their role and positions in combat complimenting each other. WT: 30/10/20/30 to GT: 10/30/30/20.


Your camp sounds like fighgunners who want rifles and grenade launchers added to the type and you, in particular, are the one offering that double sabers be taken away in order to justify it.

It's not even close to the same situation, considering that FiGunners are the ONLY class capable of using Double Sabers currently, and it is a melee weapon which is part of their role. WarTechers are not the only class capable of using cards, pistols, or bows. Wartechers are not a ranged class, and never have been. I'm not asking that Madoogs or Daggers be taken away. I'm not even advocating that currently established abilities be taken away, as in your analogy.

It'd like if ForteTechers were given a 10 level Melee PA boost in lue of boosting a casting category. I'm sure someone could find it's uses, but really it's pointless, as it doesn't fit their role at all. So why should WT get a boost to bullets which they are not oriented for, and which has a very limited use compaired to the support boost they could have gotten - especially in a party, which AoI rewards. While some attack techs are great for short range, they are largely ranged attacks - which again, fit in better with GunTechers better than with WarTechers.

mll
Sep 19, 2007, 06:56 PM
On 2007-09-19 16:34, Kimil wrote:

On 2007-09-19 16:17, mll wrote:
Even if we did get 30 support, would that 'fix' wartecher though



Yes

IMO, the other Fixs (boosts in Stats, 30 Melee and Attack Techs, s rank Wands, mags) already bring WT to be a good class.

30 level Support techs would finalize it as my perfect class



I don't know sometimes WT just feels kind of wonky
or incomplete, other people have mentioned it too.
Maybe its just the lack of a madoog.

Your probably right though,
the number of s ranks is still dissapointing too.
I want shiny stuff.

SolomonGrundy
Sep 19, 2007, 07:14 PM
how about this: every other job has a 40. Every other job has 2 to 3x the number of S ranks that WT gets.

What's good about a WT? Great base stats and balanced techs/melee/ranged.

why dial them down further?

PJ
Sep 19, 2007, 07:23 PM
Alright.

Most classes got 1 or 2 +10 PA caps.

WT has melee +10, ranged +10, attack technique +10

Therefore, it wouldn't be fair to have it support +10.

Fucking done.

EDIT: You Wartechers are babies.

You finally got your final PA combos, so now you are a respectable fighting class, instead of being utter crap. I mean, still not amazing, but not utter crap.

AND you get really great attack techniques.

So there we go. Cry me a damn river. You get 20 support, that should be the end of it. Deal.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PJ on 2007-09-19 17:27 ]</font>

BlakLanner
Sep 19, 2007, 07:37 PM
Swords? While neat, still stops us from using our Madoogs. I would have rather seen S-Rank Sabers and I REALLY wanted WTs to get slicers, at least at A-Rank. Meh, we will just have to wait and see.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 07:44 PM
When something utterly blows to begin with, giving it the same upgrade as everyone else, or even a little more, still isn't enough.

So we get 30 melee. Who the hell doesn't have at least 30? Right, classes that have no business meleeing to begin with. It's no longer anything special.

+10 ranged? Oh joy, we get slightly stronger cards. This doesn't count, since everyone has at least level 20 bullets in AoI.

+10 attack techs? Ok, but it still won't be nearly as strong as melee, and will only get used on robots and very few other enemies.


But +10 support techs? That would cement WT's spot in any good party.

SolomonGrundy
Sep 19, 2007, 08:03 PM
Let's put it another way. Each class needs a reason to play it. For example: if you wanted to play a gunner class, but did not want to be a fortegunner, Guntecher is a good choice. Lower base stats, and no pp reduction, but access to buffs/debuffs/resta (and bows). Pre AoI, this was a poor tradeoff, as GTs techs were laughable, but AoI 'fixed' things (maybe even over-fixed them).

The alt to Fortetecher used to be Wartecher, and when it came to techs/support they were inferior...but there were no other options.

Now there is another teching/support option in AoI, the AT. So where does that leave the WT?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 08:19 PM
It leaves WT as the red-headed stepchild, which is really where it's always been.

Xaeris
Sep 19, 2007, 08:50 PM
On 2007-09-19 16:44, Sinue_v2 wrote:


There is nothing a GunTecher can do substancially better than any other class either when you break their job down to their individual components. They can't cast better than FO's, they are absolutely not suited for melee, they can't lay traps the way Protranser can, and their limited weapon pallet leaves them trailing dedicated Ranger classes.

That's the entire point of a hybrid class, isn't it? It doesn't matter if another class can do a certain task better. It's about filling a niche in the party.

The point is when you put all those talents together, you get a type that does a unique job all in its own with no competition for that niche. If you put together 30/20/30/30, you get a type that's all but superior to an acrotecher.

A fortegunner can't match a guntecher in casting Resta, 'cause, hey, they don't have it. Conversely, can you say anything on the same order concerning the relationship between wartechers and acrotechers? ATs get trounced in melee by a WT, are arguably slightly worse at bullets (hint: compare ranged weapon selection), and while better at attack teching, are still in the same league. In exchange for what? Having the heels of their forte in support being nipped on by the WT's 30?


I don't play FiGunner, so I don't quite get the point you're referring to. As you trying to imply that WT 30 support would kill damage dealing tech casting on a WT? That's not the case, as there is always room for improvement on attack teching, even with level 20 attack techs capped. Attack techs are MST/TP dependant, so if you want to increase your damage output you can equip units, weapons, and raise levels. The only thing that would be really stuck is area of effect (not a huge deal since you're toe to toe with the monsters) and status effect levels (which is not a WT's job). There is NO counterpart for this when it comes to buffing and debuffing. Once you hit level 11 with buffs and debuffs, you're done. Nothing you ever do can ever improve their effectiveness - which is salt in the wound considering that come AoI, if WT doesn't get lvl 30 support, they will be the WORST support class in PSU outside of the ForteFighter spamming Star Atomisers.

All righty, I believe I've figured out our problem. But first, I'll clarify the example. The point was to show that it's not feasible to change a type into doing something you want it to do when there's already a type more suited to doing the job you've been trying to do as the type you are.

Anyway, onto our problem. See, you seem to believe that of the four types of PAs, the greatest gap caused by differences of tiers (i.e, 1-10, 11-20, etc.) is with support teching.

That's not the case. The difference in a tier 2 and tier 3 attack tech is worlds. First, on many, the status effect increases. Second, the animation changes. You don't seem to think much of that, but the fact is, it doesn't matter how close you are to the enemy, a group of three enemies that aren't close enough together to get struck by a Ra- spell simply will not be hit. Moreover, go ahead and try to tell a fortetecher that the difference in range between T2 and T3 Dambarta is negiglible. Let me know how that goes. Third, of course, the TP multiplier increases, but just as importantly, the hidden element modifier increases as well.

This isn't like skills where a tier 2 cap works okay because the third step of quite a few skills are situational. There is absolutely no contest between tiers of attack techs.


I don't see the addition of AeroTecher as a detriment to WarTecher support, in the same way I don't see ForteGunner as a detriment to a GunTecher's current role.

You see no problem between fortegunner and guntecher because fortegunners have no techs to compete with in support. The WT/AT relationship is more problematic seeing as the only thing an AT has a clear leg up in over a WT is support and despite the holy grail you all seem to think it is, one tier of difference ain't gonna cut it.


It's not even close to the same situation, considering that FiGunners are the ONLY class capable of using Double Sabers currently, and it is a melee weapon which is part of their role. WarTechers are not the only class capable of using cards, pistols, or bows. Wartechers are not a ranged class, and never have been. I'm not asking that Madoogs or Daggers be taken away. I'm not even advocating that currently established abilities be taken away, as in your analogy.

Actually, you're advocating that attack techs be hit with the nerf bat. As I already said, losing an entire tier of offensive teching can't simply be made up for with units. What you're attacking in the analogy is minutia; the point is that trading T3 attack for T3 support is not an even trade in the slightest.


While some attack techs are great for short range, they are largely ranged attacks - which again, fit in better with GunTechers better than with WarTechers.

Hmm...let's put this theory to the test, shall we? There are 36 technics in the game. Of them, 14 are support technics, and are exempt from this little test, leaving us with 22.

Of that 22, 10 are blatantly made for use at close range (Dam-, Gi-, Megiverse and Regrants). 2 are better used at close range when attempting to strike quicker moving enemies (Foie, Diga). 4 are identical whether used at long or close ranged (Ra-). So that leaves 6 (Simple, Nos-) made specifically for long range use as opposed to 12 which work better when closer.

Moreover, guntechers have bullets for long ranged attacking; attack teching wouldn't work its way into their fighting well at all. It'd be useless to them and they'd be complaining even more than you all are now.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 09:08 PM
On 2007-09-19 18:50, Xaeris wrote:
If you put together 30/20/30/30, you get a type that's all but superior to an acrotecher.
No.

A class with 0/0/0/40 would have a guaranteed spot in any party, so AT will do quite well.

Xaeris
Sep 19, 2007, 09:18 PM
Fuzzy, you have to understand. If you want to abruptly stop replying to me, that's fine, and your right. Just don't expect me to respond when you set a precedent for ducking out.

beatrixkiddo
Sep 19, 2007, 09:18 PM
lol @ thread

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 09:19 PM
Sorry, I have more important things to do than troll POSW all day, fun as it may be.

chibiLegolas
Sep 19, 2007, 09:57 PM
On 2007-09-19 17:44, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
So we get 30 melee. Who the hell doesn't have at least 30? Right, classes that have no business meleeing to begin with. It's no longer anything special.

So giving every tech caster 30 support (except AT of course) is ok to you?
>_>

I mean, don't get me wrong. WT + 30 support sounds fun and all being the field medic and debuffer. But what does that then say about GT and FT who can do just the SAME THING?

What's so special about a WT + 20 support some of you ask? How about a 3 tier melee class that can actually *gasp!*
HEAL?! And thank god you guys didn't had to suffer what GT's had to go through with our 10 support cap. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
I still say WT + S rank wands + increased TP + HP/DEF is still a damn good reason enough.
Sure, maybe you might not heal everyone to full HP. But did you ever wonder perhaps that's not their purpose to begin with? Healing up to 75% is good enough. Hell, maybe this would give a better reason to make those newman WT's.

I guess the main con about 20 support is that WT just looses that part of their versatility about them. And encourages them to concentrate on attack techs (which can deal good SE now with 30 attack), rather than worry about buffs.

Still, for those who wish to concentrate on melee, but have strong buffs, seems to be lost somewhere in this game.
Where is the melee FOmar equivalent in PSU? AT with their 20 skill cap?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 10:08 PM
On 2007-09-19 19:57, chibiLegolas wrote:
So giving every tech caster 30 support (except AT of course) is ok to you?
>_>Absolutely. Ideally, they would have kept fT with 40 and AT with 50, and let GT and WT both have 30, but whatever.


I mean, don't get me wrong. WT + 30 support sounds fun and all being the field medic and debuffer. But what does that then say about GT and FT who can do just the SAME THING?Well, GT is broken in AoI. Hell, any ranged user is already broken. Fortetecher is another story. In my eyes, they got seriously hurt by the loss of level 40 support. Whether WT has 30 support or not doesn't change that.


What's so special about a WT + 20 support some of you ask? How about a 3 tier melee class that can actually *gasp!*
HEAL?! And thank god you guys didn't had to suffer what GT's had to go through with our 10 support cap. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
I still say WT + S rank wands + increased TP + HP/DEF is still a damn good reason enough.
Sure, maybe you might not heal everyone to full HP. But did you ever wonder perhaps that's not their purpose to begin with? Healing up to 75% is good enough. Hell, maybe this would give a better reason to make those newman WT's. In case you missed it, we're not concerned at all about Resta, but rather with the level of our buffs.


I guess the main con about 20 support is that WT just looses that part of their versatility about them. And encourages them to concentrate on attack techs (which can deal good SE now with 30 attack), rather than worry about buffs.And that is what leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Let's put it this way. The premise of WT has promise: a decent melee user with a decent tech ability as well. However, it's very poorly applied, since 30 attack techs are redundant. Unless they changed the system a lot, melee will do better damage to 90% of the enemies in the game, if not more. With Just Attack/Counter giving strings of guaranteed critical PA hits, I'm sure this will still be true. So instead of putting said decent tech ability into support where it would be well used, they put it into attack techs, which are generally useless to any class that has melee as an alternative.


Still, for those who wish to concentrate on melee, but have strong buffs, seems to be lost somewhere in this game.
Where is the melee FOmar equivalent in PSU? AT with their 20 skill cap?

This is my problem. I wish to play a support/melee character, and neither WT nor AT really give me what I'm looking for.

Soukosa
Sep 19, 2007, 10:19 PM
Summery of this thread:
WT fanboy: WT isn't like how I want it! *whine whine whine*
Random poster: *explains that WT is fine*
WT fanboy: *makes up a bunch of pointless non sense to counter it*
Another poster: *continues to explain that WT is fine*
WT fanboy: *refuses to accept any of that as well and whines more*
Another WT fanboy: *attacks other classes that get what they want for their class*
Yet another poster: *face palm*

Maybe, just maybe... WT wasn't meant for support? Wartecher doesn't exactly lend itself to being a strong supportive character but a strong battle worthy teching class. Guntecher is much more support oriented and was designed to be that way from the beginning. Gunners are generally oriented more towards support than power while melees aren't.

Just because a class doesn't work the way you want it to be doesn't mean you have to play it or anything. WT is clearly designed for a offensive hybrid of melee and techs. While techs may suck now for you, they're not likely to be that way with the new mods. While I don't have a WT on the JP version or know anyone with one, the sheer change in what happened to GT in terms of techs should be a sign of things to come for WT. Even with lv 20 attack techs, they still do decent damage. Sure it's not FT quality but its easily high enough to use on ranged resistant enemies. WT should have even higher TP and of course, higher attack techs. Granted, even with the old mods, attack techs were half way decent on WTs. If they suck because you're a cast or beast HUnewearl wannabe, then that's your fault and not ST's. Get over and move on if you don't like how WT is.


On 2007-09-19 14:39, Shiroryuu wrote:
Yeah, Panzer has a good point, I find it that its easier for me to support as a Fortetecher or a Guntecher than it is as a Wartecher. As Fortetecher, I can easily focus on supporting, where as when I'm Wartecher, I find myself playing mostly offensively and doing resta mostly for myself. Also, I thought that a Wartecher's high defensive stats made for it to be able to afford to get in the action and heal the hunters that are getting hit alot, so they wouldn't need the long range of lv 30 support.

You two win. Melees don't lend themselves to support very well unless they're just gonna poke the enemy and not bother to try to use combos or skills.


On 2007-09-19 14:41, Kimil wrote:
Here are the reasons why the JP WTs don't have the max support levels yet:

All 5 of them? Okay, there's more than that but WT isn't very popular on the JP version. Hardly enough to do something like that, I'm sure.

CelestialBlade
Sep 19, 2007, 10:27 PM
Oh god why is this still going o_O

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 10:33 PM
As I said before (or meant to say, maybe I forgot, lawl), I'll accept it however it turns out. WT has been utter crap for the past year, so being slightly less utter crap won't phase me.

With the PA disk thing in AoI, it makes switching classes a viable option, So I'll just take whatever comes, and find something else to do. Who knows, maybe it'll turn out well anyway. I'm just killing time BSing and trolling responses from the "attack techs are actually worthwhile!" crowd.

Zorafim
Sep 19, 2007, 10:43 PM
Summery of Soukosa's post:
Soukosa is right and everyone else is wrong.


Never, in my career as a fF, have I ever thought "Jee, I wish I had a diga to throw at this mob", unless it was a mob that was resistant to everything but techs.
Status, sure. Buffs and debuffs, yes. Attack techs, I can easily do without.

WT just isn't appealing to me, which is why I avoid it. If only a few things about it were changed, it may be my favorite class. But until then, I'll simply play a class that I find fun.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2007, 10:48 PM
On 2007-09-19 20:43, Zorafim wrote:
I'll simply play a class that I find fun.

That's what I really should do, but for some reason I seem to enjoy playing a class that I mostly hate and then proceeding to bitch about it.

Not surprising, really. I did the same thing for a year on BB with HUmer before finding my niche with melee FOmar. Maybe AT will work out for me.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-09-19 20:51 ]</font>

Uncle_bob
Sep 19, 2007, 10:54 PM
On 2007-09-19 19:57, chibiLegolas wrote:
So giving every tech caster 30 support (except AT of course) is ok to you?
>_>

I mean, don't get me wrong. WT + 30 support sounds fun and all being the field medic and debuffer. But what does that then say about GT and FT who can do just the SAME THING?


Yea, giving Wartecher level 30 support totally makes no sense! Good thing Fortegunners and Fortefighters will be the only ones with Level 40 bullets and skills respectively...oh, wait. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

Wartecher not having level 30 support is like Protranser being stuck at level 30 bullets and skills in AoI

Zorafim
Sep 19, 2007, 10:54 PM
On 2007-09-19 20:48, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
That's what I really should do, but for some reason I seem to enjoy playing a class that I mostly hate and then proceeding to bitch about it.


Happens to the best of us. I played FFXI for how many years, now?

Zorafim
Sep 19, 2007, 10:57 PM
Actually, considering it's a trapping class, that kinda makes sense.

SolomonGrundy
Sep 19, 2007, 11:33 PM
Maybe, just maybe... WT wasn't meant for support? Wartecher doesn't exactly lend itself to being a strong supportive character but a strong battle worthy teching class. Guntecher is much more support oriented and was designed to be that way from the beginning. Gunners are generally oriented more towards support than power while melees aren't.

who the eff are you to decide what is meant for support and who isn't. I say that WT are just as much designed to support as ATs are. (if WTs were to get L30 supp techs)

Sinue_v2
Sep 19, 2007, 11:44 PM
WarTechers are built every bit as much for support right now as they are for offensive teching. The problem being that they fill the support role much better than the offensive casting role, and most people that I've seen (of the very few WT's out there) seem to grasp this concept.

As for the rest of my argument, I'll respond after I sober up a bit. Fuzzy apparently isn't the only one with better things to do than troll a WT topic.

Xaeris
Sep 19, 2007, 11:45 PM
Well, I suppose he's not qualified to make those decisions so you don't need to take his word for it. Though, you don't seem particularly crazy to take it from the people who clearly are qualified to be making that decision and did make that decision, so...

Edit: That was for Grundy, though I suppose it works for anyone in the other camp.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xaeris on 2007-09-19 21:57 ]</font>

LTrav2k
Sep 20, 2007, 01:05 AM
I'm very excited about the upgrade to our support techs!! I'm seeing this as the push we needed to be able to reasonably punch through any situation.

Kimil
Sep 20, 2007, 01:08 AM
No matter what others say, I'm sticking with Wartechers getting lvl 30 Support PAs in Aoi

- Every Pre-Aoi Class is down 10 PA levels from what they are supposed to be at.
- Some Say that this is just because lvl 40 PAs are not available, and thus WT should have gotten the lvl 30 support PAs already.
Response -> maxing WTs in 3 out of 4 PA types at level 30 is just a little too overpowered, this is why we wont be getting the 10 support until the 40 level supports are out.
- The latest Mag Scans said that WTs will get lvl 30 Support techs in the expansion. Last time I checked, the JP players weren't playing the expansion just yet were they?


WT is clearly designed for a offensive hybrid of melee and techs.
Say that to all the current WTs.

Maybe, just maybe... WT wasn't meant for support?
Coming from someone who's played a WT the whole extent of his PSU career, it is just you. WTs always become healers durring games, even when there is a fT present, WTs usually still heal quite a bit. and buff/debuff too

Go play WT, number crunching stats doesn't mean you knwo everything about the class. Play the class, see how much melee/attack teching you do. the Attack Techs, even as a Newman, are usually useless compared to the melee damage you do. And yes, you will be supporting quite a bit.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-09-19 23:13 ]</font>

drizzle
Sep 20, 2007, 01:47 AM
Warnurses, not Wartechers!

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 20, 2007, 01:52 AM
I prefer Warbuffer and Fortenurse, but whatever.

Kimil
Sep 20, 2007, 01:57 AM
On 2007-09-19 23:52, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
I prefer Warbuffer and Fortenurse, but whatever.



lol, you're entitled to your preference i guess.

Warnurse all teh way!

chibiLegolas
Sep 20, 2007, 02:38 AM
On 2007-09-19 23:08, Kimil wrote:
No matter what others say, I'm sticking with Wartechers getting lvl 30 Support PAs in Aoi

- Every Pre-Aoi Class is down 10 PA levels from what they are supposed to be at.
- Some Say that this is just because lvl 40 PAs are not available, and thus WT should have gotten the lvl 30 support PAs already.
Response -> maxing WTs in 3 out of 4 PA types at level 30 is just a little too overpowered, this is why we wont be getting the 10 support until the 40 level supports are out.
- The latest Mag Scans said that WTs will get lvl 30 Support techs in the expansion. Last time I checked, the JP players weren't playing the expansion just yet were they?


WT is clearly designed for a offensive hybrid of melee and techs.
Say that to all the current WTs.

Maybe, just maybe... WT wasn't meant for support?
Coming from someone who's played a WT the whole extent of his PSU career, it is just you. WTs always become healers durring games, even when there is a fT present, WTs usually still heal quite a bit. and buff/debuff too

Go play WT, number crunching stats doesn't mean you knwo everything about the class. Play the class, see how much melee/attack teching you do. the Attack Techs, even as a Newman, are usually useless compared to the melee damage you do. And yes, you will be supporting quite a bit.


I know attack tech is frowned upon as WT, but I also just assume that because of GT's limit of 10 techs kinda FORCES all the support burden onto the WT, after the FT. Is it possible that after playing WT this long, many WT just got used to this play style?
Though I admit, I never played one myself. But I can tell you that after many attempts of trying to share the support burden as a GT, many just shun my good intentions and FORCES the FT and WT to buff and heal. Leaving me with lvl 10 debuff duty a lot of times.

Does EVERYONE want a piece of the buffing pie? (not that there's anything wrong with it). Is this some kind of Western style thinking or something?

Sorry folks. But WT in my mind, are fighters + resta ability mainly. Stating WT needing 30 buffs during combat seems ubsurd to me. Now if anyone argues that WT need 30 DEBUFFS, then I can see that to be true. But only 1 or 2 ppl argued this briefly.

Siege
Sep 20, 2007, 02:50 AM
I guess I can see both arguments. Either way I will be happy w/ the WT's improvements, although I am fairly certain that they will receive the LV 30 buffs. If WT receives the 30/20/30/20 treatment, we are definitely due for some more S ranks just to balance it out. However at 30/20/30/30, I see our overall versatility as too great to merit the addition of any more S rank weapons. 30/20/30/20 is more limiting because it seems to promote the use of humans or newmans in order to take full advantage of attack techs, but the 30/20/30/30 setup leaves it wide open. Beasts and even casts would make good WTs as they could focus mainly on melee/buffing/debuffing. I think either way the WT will work in AOI, but the less versatile setup will need more S ranks. I'm not that concerned about it though. It only seems logical for WT to get the additional 10 lvs to support when AOI is released.

drizzle
Sep 20, 2007, 03:13 AM
On 2007-09-20 00:38, chibiLegolas wrote:
I know attack tech is frowned upon as WT,

Naw, it's only a handful that frown up on it, they're just really loud about it ;D

-Ryuki-
Sep 20, 2007, 06:23 AM
Back in early PSU, no one cared much for the WT class.

...So why the hell is everyone trying to be one now? >=O

PJ
Sep 20, 2007, 06:28 AM
For the same reason Guntechers play Guntechers.

They want to be different.

Pillan
Sep 20, 2007, 08:20 AM
Really, I’m all for giving WT 30 support for the same reason I was all for GT gaining 30 support.

It’s quite simple: there is no class that needs ranged and technique attacks nor melee and technique attacks. The main reason being that high level bullets plus decent ATP/ATA gives you a lot more damage/time and a lot more effects than mid level tech attacks with mid range TP and mid level melee with mid level ATP gives you even more damage than that, especially with the new Just system implemented. Anyone who plays WT can tell you that even a Newman does more damage with melee on a melee resistant enemy than it does with techs, just because all skills hit multiple targets and hit at least twice as fast. That and the effect 2 x 3 you get from a card is much faster than the effect 3 you get from any tech aside from Damfoie/Dambarta and you can easily replace Nosdiga’s stun with the stun the second bow PA gets.

So what we’ll see with 20 support is a large crowd who is discouraged to play WT because you could just switch to FG or fF and equip all the melee of WT minus whips, but adding slicers and another more powerful weapon (double sabers and axes, respectively) since your support is useless. Resta alone isn’t enough of a reason to play WT when the GT can heal just as much thanks to the extra 10 levels and the fT heals far more in addition to their shared dominance on buffs and debuffs. Sure you might see a few humans and Newmans who like the idea of being able to do weak melee and weak attack techs in exchange for the wall stats the class offers, but most likely they switch to AT for the slightly stronger techs, significantly better support, and slightly weaker melee/wall stats.

I take that back, everyone would switch to AT just because WT is useless in the party. 4 classes can do better melee, 7 classes can do better ranged, 3 classes can do better support, 2 can do better tech damage, and 4 classes have around the same or slightly less survivability (GT, AT, fT, fG, and possibly AF). Regardless of what you want from the class and how you rate it, odds are you can get 2 out of 5 attributes better and another 2 the same or slightly weaker on some other class.

So, all WT has with 30/20/30/20 is that it’s the best in solo. Give it 30/20/30/30 and it will be unbalanced solo, but it won’t suck in a party and will still be less useful than a good GT or fT. I mean, do any of us really care about the solo-ability balance that much that we’d really screw over the class outside of that?

And, yeah, the reason we all want to play WT is the reason we’ve all always wanted to play WT. The high damage output of melee plus Resta sounds like a great combination in theory, but, like usual, Sonic Team found some way to ruin it. Really, everyone just wants them to repair the class in a way that would make it not suck outside of solo. And the easiest ways to do that are to give it a stat distribution of 30/20/40/20, 30/20/30/30, or 30/20/20/40.

Reipard
Sep 20, 2007, 08:58 AM
In other words, people want their class to be able to do everything ~_~.

Why in the world is this topic still alive? Nothing new has been added to this argument since like, page 10. By this point it's just everyone throwing around the same points, flawed or not, and using the same logic, flawed or not, to debunk them.

Sinue_v2
Sep 20, 2007, 10:29 AM
Naw, it's only a handful that frown up on it, they're just really loud about it ;D

Try an experiment. Make two WT's and focus them on different aspects of Teching. Have one be Melee/Support, while the other be Melee/Offense. Go play in a few random games. The Melee/Support will find a much easier time fitting into a party. Even if you're not casting attack techs aside from the ocassional Foie or Diga, and focusing on keeping the party healed, buffed, and the enemies debuffed. Your lowered attack power (even on a Newman WT) won't matter. No-one will really care. Now take the Melee/Offensive caster and go into a few random games and just blast nuke attacks, and only spout the ocassional Resta and Reverser... don't buff/debuff.

See which one will get booted from the party first.

Protip: It won't be the Support WT.

Having played both ends of the spectrum, I can assure you that the vast majority of players (even those who don't play WT) see them as a support class. Not an offensive class. Even GunTechers aren't under the same scrutiny of casting support, since most people know that lvl 10 tech caps make them almost useless for support. They are life-support, at best, keeping the party healed just long enough to pop off a Dimate or until the FT can switch over to a healing rod... and nobody expects much out of their buffs. Debuff an enemy? You'll be told you're wasting your time.

I still contend that GunTecher and WarTecher compliment each other, and the party, best as opposites. They should have the same Attack and Support Technique - with one being focused on melee attacks, and the other being focused on ranged.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2007-09-20 08:33 ]</font>

panzer_unit
Sep 20, 2007, 10:41 AM
On 2007-09-19 21:33, SolomonGrundy wrote:

Maybe, just maybe... WT wasn't meant for support?

who the eff are you to decide what is meant for support and who isn't. I say that WT are just as much designed to support as ATs are. (if WTs were to get L30 supp techs)


Given that they only get lv20 support techs... I guess it would be Sonic Team who decided that WT are meant to do melee/tech offense?

I started an attack-tech Cast WT ages ago. It worked out pretty well to start and they even did some pretty good damage coming from a 3*+10 GRM wand. At higher levels, lv11+ Ra-techs are still reasonably safe, PP efficient damage and (like Fighgunner or Protranser) capable of dropping statuses on groups of creatures that let you go into hand-to-hand with a big advantage. Unfortunately in S/S2 missions, SE2 on the techs Jain needs to use just isn't capable of landing fast enough.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 20, 2007, 10:43 AM
On 2007-09-20 06:20, Pillan wrote:
long post

I agree with everything you said, except for the part about solo. WT was good for solo towards the start of PSU, but now it's quite obvious that fG/GT are the best, considering how broken ranged attacks/SEs are.

panzer_unit
Sep 20, 2007, 11:22 AM
On 2007-09-20 06:20, Pillan wrote:
It’s quite simple: there is no class that needs ranged and technique attacks nor melee and technique attacks.
...
So what we’ll see with 20 support is a large crowd who is discouraged to play WT because you could just switch to FG or fF and equip all the melee of WT minus whips, but adding slicers and another more powerful weapon (double sabers and axes, respectively) since your support is useless.
...
I take that back, everyone would switch to AT just because WT is useless in the party. 4 classes can do better melee, 7 classes can do better ranged, 3 classes can do better support, 2 can do better tech damage

... 4 classes can melee better? Ff, FG, PT, and who? I call BS. 2 classes do it better and PT arguably equal. Same tier for skills and very close ATP.
... 2 classes can do better tech damage. I call BS again, AT has the same cap for attack techs. The TP difference isn't going to be night-and-day especially if AT's using a madoog and WT's using a wand.

Every class with melee as their primary damage benefits enormously from having some decent alternative form of offense... melee attacks don't deal damaging statuses to get around resistance, and having to attack really damaging enemies head-on really blows through the healing supplies.

There are 3 comparable classes there: Fighgunner, Protranser, and Wartecher. How it works out between those choices is kindergarten game balance... Figh is the strongest melee fighter with the extra 10 level PA cap, and has the weakest secondary offense. Protranser and WT are equal melee fighters, attack techs are stronger than guns (huge elemental modifiers, AOE, high SE levels) so I'll assume the skill cap difference is just what's fair until I see proof otherwise.

Oh and look, WT can resta / buff / debuff for free on top of all that.

mll
Sep 20, 2007, 12:21 PM
fF, FG and acrofighter melee better without doubt. PT is debatable.
AT are stronger with techs thats blatant, granted its not a huge advantage.

And a figunner with crossbows and lvl. 30 ba's, I have no doubt they'd push WT Attack techs any day, and i like WT attack techs.

I'm not actually hugely bothered one way or the other if we get them or not because I went WT for mellee with longbows and attack techs. and thats what i got.

BUT how many classes are beasts actually suited to. I'd say 2 - WT and fF. The 20 support cap hits them hard and makes WT pointless for a beast.

panzer_unit
Sep 20, 2007, 12:25 PM
ah, Af... thats the one I forgot

EDIT: what's the deal-killer with lv20 support techs? In a team with ANY other techer, you'll get their support and have your hands free to do damage. Solo, you've got support techs _at all_ when most other jobs don't.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-09-20 10:27 ]</font>

mll
Sep 20, 2007, 12:32 PM
Its a killer for beasts.
Its kind of irrelevant for the melee / attack tech crowd because we dont have the pa space to make much use of the support regardless.

Zorafim
Sep 20, 2007, 12:36 PM
Now tell me what happens in parties where there are no other techers. You know, like most of them?