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View Full Version : WHY DO PEOPLE THINK HYBRID TECHERS ARE SUPPORT ?



Rett
Sep 20, 2007, 11:13 AM
I just want to know why some people have this misconception. Post after Post I read Wartecher and Guntecher are support classes. Why do you people think that ? Yes I have a resta wand, but what makes you think its to heal the Fortefigther and ForteGunners ? I have a resta wand so unlike some people I don't run out of mates in the first room of an S or S2. So please tell me why you people think we are support ? Is it because we give up damage for the ability to heal and buff ourselves (note ourselves not other people) ? I really want to know.

panzer_unit
Sep 20, 2007, 11:25 AM
Let's see:
level 10 and even level 20 attack techs are virtually useless in terms of AOE and SE level, but level 20 resta is ok
casts are the only fortetechers ever stop nuking to heal anyone during combat

Fure_Rakune
Sep 20, 2007, 11:34 AM
Well as a Cast Guntecher, currently I do see myself as a Restabot and thats fine to me.
Come AoI I will be full support with my increased skill level for support techniques.

Ezodagrom
Sep 20, 2007, 11:34 AM
On 2007-09-20 09:13, Rett wrote:
I just want to know why some people have this misconception. Post after Post I read Wartecher and Guntecher are support classes. Why do you people think that ? Yes I have a resta wand, but what makes you think its to heal the Fortefigther and ForteGunners ? I have a resta wand so unlike some people I don't run out of mates in the first room of an S or S2. So please tell me why you people think we are support ? Is it because we give up damage for the ability to heal and buff ourselves (note ourselves not other people) ? I really want to know.



Actually in aoi guntecher gets lvl 30 support techs and 20 attack techs, this makes guntecher an hybrid ranger/support force class.
Wartecher was going to get lvl 30 attack techs and lvl 20 support techs, but now looks like they're getting lvl 30 support techs, but I think wartecher is more an hybrid hunter/attack force class than hunter/support force (that one is acrotecher).

beatrixkiddo
Sep 20, 2007, 11:37 AM
Most of the current discussion on hybrid support is based on the changes AoI is anticipated to receive, and the changes PSU has already received in preparation for AoI (in Japan)

Kylie
Sep 20, 2007, 11:41 AM
I'm a little put off by people demanding buffs and healing, but it's also a bit understandable as well. I mean, it's helpful, and WT and GT do have the stats to do it. But if you'd rather not be much support, and someone bugs you about it, just kindly tell them that that's not how you choose to play. If they understand or not is their problem.

Fure_Rakune
Sep 20, 2007, 11:44 AM
Ive only been in a couple instances recently were someone would often use a shortcut devoted to asking/demanding for buffs.
Generally Ill drop an agratide or defbaride in front of them to shut em up, they work better than my level 10 buffs.

Pengfishh
Sep 20, 2007, 11:55 AM
With the ability to play support comes the responsibility to play support, but it's a choice matter entirely. I'm sure if Fortefighters/gunners could use a wand, they'd handle up on buffing and healing themselves, but as it stands this game is team-based and requires, to a degree, team players.

Though, now there's no chance to fail a mission, really, so everyone can blast away and the only team support anyone needs is a Moon Atomizer when handy.

Zorafim
Sep 20, 2007, 12:01 PM
Forces and hybrids are the only classes that can support, and supporting makes a big difference. In other words, they're expecting you to be helpful.
How would you like to party with a gunner that doesn't use traps, or a fighter that doesn't use knockups and stuns? If you have it, use it.

chibiLegolas
Sep 20, 2007, 12:12 PM
I just hope that I won't hear any slack from ppl who complain that I prefer to debuff compared to buffing. On hybrids, the lack of 4 slot wands is taxing on our pallete and I prefer to fill out my wands with resta/debuffs than buffs.
But that's MY playstyle.

Broodstar1337
Sep 20, 2007, 12:12 PM
On 2007-09-20 10:01, Zorafim wrote:
Forces and hybrids are the only classes that can support, and supporting makes a big difference. In other words, they're expecting you to be helpful.
How would you like to party with a gunner that doesn't use traps, or a fighter that doesn't use knockups and stuns? If you have it, use it.



Myself? I don't care because I'm not paying for my teammates to play PSU. I'm good enough to compensate for other people's shortcomings. Just don't fuck with my amusement...

princejake2
Sep 20, 2007, 12:14 PM
I think that its wrong to demand/require tech classes to heal, but jeez it helps so much. As a Fighgunner (who seems to get knocked around quite a bit) I love it when a techer runs up and heal/buffs me. Gives me a sense of relief, ya know?

-Ryuki-
Sep 20, 2007, 12:16 PM
(Double-posted.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RyukiZero on 2007-09-20 10:20 ]</font>

Turambar
Sep 20, 2007, 12:16 PM
You use resta so that you don't run out of mates in the first room. Non-techers want you to resta them so they also don't run out of mates in one room. It kind of makes sense to me.....

-Ryuki-
Sep 20, 2007, 12:17 PM
Anyone who classifies them as support, apparently is too lazy to be one themselves. "Where's my Resta/Buffs?!"

Yeah. No. Shut up you lazy people, and stop using others to heal/buff you. If they want to, that's THEIR decision, not yours.

Turambar
Sep 20, 2007, 12:18 PM
You use resta so that you don't run out of mates in the first room. Non-techers want you to resta them so they also don't run out of mates in one room. It kind of makes sense to me. They expect you to support because unlike their classes, yours is actually capable OF support skills. While yes, everyone has their own play style, you can't quite say that their expectations are completely invalid.

Mysterious-G
Sep 20, 2007, 12:21 PM
Cause they simply are. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

amtalx
Sep 20, 2007, 12:39 PM
Let me paint you a picture. This is why people expect hybrids to be support:

Enter 4x Lvl 105 Polavohras, fT, fG, GT, and fF.
fG stays back with a Rifle.
GT uses Twins.
fT throws Diga.
fF begins spamming PA and gets bucked by a Polavorha.

fF: WTF man, that was a critical! I just got nailed for 1000 damage. Hey force! I need buffs and healing.
fT: F#$k you and your buffs...OMGZZZ I just hit that Polavorha with Diga for OVER 3000! You wish you could do---

fT gets bucked through the door by the Polavohra, sending her back to Block 2.
GT throws Diga at Polavorha.

fG: Lolololzzzz the GT only hit for 800!
fF: Man that Fortetecher sucked, she never healed.

fT gets booted.

fG: Wait...don't we have another techer over here?
fF: Oh, yea. They count as a force.
fG and fF: HEY FORCE!! HEAL AND BUFF US NOW!! Your attack techs sux and the fighter has been low on HP for 15 SECONDS!! Jeez this force sux0rz too...

Some fT are too busy busting nukes to bother with healing. So guess what?!? Only the hybrids are left.

Guildenstern
Sep 20, 2007, 12:46 PM
It's a problem passed on from FFXI, in my opinion. :/ Too many people have gotten into the mindset of 'If you can squeeze a cure out of it in some way, it's a support class!11!1!1!1'

Already I see people trying to classify these jobs as 'Red Mage' 'Paladin' 'White Mage' when in reality you can't really compare these things at all. Trying to cram PSU jobs into set roles is difficult as a majority of classes are hybrids and clearly aren't meant to excel at specific things, but rather to provide what is needed most in any given scenario.

I play White Mage on FFXI and if I see one more person compare AT to WHM I'm going to throw my laptop into the river. There is no comparison. At all.

-Ryuki-
Sep 20, 2007, 12:49 PM
You would think GT is using something else, like Bows or Crossbows. Maybe even rifles, for SE.

You'd also think that, the FT was using something else, like NosDiga or DamBarta >.>

And that FF must not know the words.. "FROM BEHIND!"

The FoG on the other hand, did what he would do, and that's stay in the backlines.
Now, if it were a Pola, you'd either SE that, or Grenade it. There shouldn't be that much trouble.

And I was only giving my two meseta, so don't think I was trying to debate or anything XD

drizzle
Sep 20, 2007, 12:52 PM
The team member with the highest buffs uses them. Team play and all. Common sense, really.

IsoDonk
Sep 20, 2007, 12:53 PM
I like healing. Generally any team I play with likes it too. As for buffs? I want you to listen when I'm offering to buff. There's little more annoying than people that run off and start soloing things while the rest of your party has stopped for buffs, and THEN they start complaining.

Find me a Polavorha and normally I'll ask people to take care of themselves for a bit while I hit 1,000 every time. Simple pleasures :3

My alt is a Protranser-in-training, and I've made it something of a principle to ask any FTs I see whether I should expect heals or whether I should use items myself now I can't heal myself. It makes sense to carry at the very least a stock of Trimates just in case the force can't get to you in time anyway. Stuck in a Jarba's Dambarta and lucky enough not to be frozen yet?

Kimil
Sep 20, 2007, 12:59 PM
On 2007-09-20 09:34, Ezodagrom wrote:

Wartecher was going to get lvl 30 attack techs and lvl 2030 support techs



Fixed

Zorafim
Sep 20, 2007, 12:59 PM
Hah... It's topics like this that make me miss FFXI. There, everyone knew what they were expected to do, and they did it well. I never tried doing heavy damage as a pld, the whitemage never nuked, the red mage never meleed (got too many bomb tosses, they eventually stopped trying), the warriors never tanked. The party preformed at its highest capacity, simply out of necessity.

Now we have people rambling about "I shouldn't have to do it if I don't want to", while the party is preforming at 70% capacity. If you're grinding at a hotspot anyway, why not do your job so that you can get out of there quicker?




And that FF must not know the words.. "FROM BEHIND!"

I thought you were a fortefighter. You should know that doesn't work.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zorafim on 2007-09-20 11:01 ]</font>

-Ryuki-
Sep 20, 2007, 01:00 PM
When I'm WT, I'm normally in the frontlines melee-ing. If it's something huge, I'd use a tech.

Example: Kamatoze + Foie = fun.
Kamatoze + Skill = possible death.

As for "support", I don't have buffs, and to be honest, I almost refuse to have buffs on Ryuki.
When I played PSO, all I really did was Resta my teammates. They never asked for buffs, and I
never thought it was necessary.

So, basically, I melee most of the time, and heal when my teammates are at least half health.

What you decide to call that, I don't know, but I guess you can say I sort of support. There's been
a case though, when I'd join random games, and they would heavily rely on me to heal. I tell them
to stick close to me. If they run off on their own, I'm not chasing after them to heal.

And, booted they become, by the party leader for dying away from the party (this was when the death
penalty wasn't implemented by the way).

Sychosis
Sep 20, 2007, 01:03 PM
Because post AoI, Fortetecher will be the worst support techer.

CelestialBlade
Sep 20, 2007, 01:03 PM
Who says you have to pick support or offense?

Guntechers are masters of offhanded guns, so it's very easy to be on the offensive while keeping your buddies alive at the same time. Crossbow + Restawand = fear.

Personally, I think the game's way more fun that way. Even on my Force, I actually enjoy supporting and attacking all at once because it keeps everything fast-paced and varied. Always gotta be on my toes watching out for everyone, and that ends up being too much fun.

majan
Sep 20, 2007, 01:10 PM
its a matter of playstyle. some forces are dicks and do nothing but nuke(refusing to buff,even though buffs help themselves too.......amazing concept there..) but thats wat separates the good people to play with and the shitty people.a good force does everything.deals out max amounts of damage when possible and also performs the function of support for the entire team.if your teammate is caught in a dambarta,dont keep nuking.heal him.it is in yours and everybody elses best interest to get through the mission as fast and efficiently as possible which includes buffing and healing.healing keeps people alive and happy and buffs enhances stats so that people are outputting more and taking less damage.when it comes to a wartecher/guntecher,I woudlnt know cus I do not play the hybrid forces but I can say it would be more of a pain in the ass to have any more than one or 2 buffs assigned to a wand beucase all they can carry is wands-which only map 2 technics.the obvious one is resta,then that leaves room for 1 more before you add another wand that manipulates an another entire palette slot unless you largely use cards/mechguns/crossbows/handguns,what have you.but like I siad its a matter of play style.

further,if a wartecher is using his twin sabers and whatnot doing his thing,if one person gets to half hp and the wartecher doesnt immediately stop and spam resta,I dont blame the wartecher,one bit.everybody should carry healing items and noone should rely on one member of the party to wipe their asses--on the other hand,if a person is in deep shit and the wartecher has the chance to heal,then yeah,its your obligation to help out the team and save someone's ass.sure,if a ft is in the party you can probably rely on them healing you most of the time but even then what if hes knocked on his ass or is on the other side of the room?there is no excuse (unless the person is an asshole) for you to die,then blame it on the fortetecher.carry at least some healing items so that in a pinch you can save your own ass.also remember: shit happens.sometimes you die in this game and its total bullshit,like if you are being chased by a go vahra,it clearly misses you,yet you get critted for 1300 damage.shit happens.

in the buff's issue,Im on the OP's side.if I was only able to carry wands,I wouldnt want to waste inventory space on an extra wand just to have the extra buffs--force hybrids arent exactly meant to be played as the main caster/support person in the party.though I do reccomend a wand with shifta and resta,that way everybody is happy-the wartecher has his own shifta and his own resta,which both greatly help themselves in battle,team-based or not.it benefits everybody

it all comes down to who is an asshole and who is not,and of course,the style of play.

-Ryuki-
Sep 20, 2007, 01:18 PM
Hey, don't get me wrong. Some people actually love healing people, via White Mage.

Let THOSE people do the support, and hope that you actually find someone who'll babysit you.

drizzle
Sep 20, 2007, 01:24 PM
On 2007-09-20 10:17, RyukiZero wrote:
Anyone who classifies them as support, apparently is too lazy to be one themselves. "Where's my Resta/Buffs?!"

Yeah. No. Shut up you lazy people, and stop using others to heal/buff you. If they want to, that's THEIR decision, not yours.




If you need to be told to buff, you either need to suck less, or switch classes.
If teamwork is too much for you, play solo.

-Ryuki-
Sep 20, 2007, 01:27 PM
On 2007-09-20 11:24, drizzle wrote:

On 2007-09-20 10:17, RyukiZero wrote:
Anyone who classifies them as support, apparently is too lazy to be one themselves. "Where's my Resta/Buffs?!"

Yeah. No. Shut up you lazy people, and stop using others to heal/buff you. If they want to, that's THEIR decision, not yours.




If you need to be told to buff, you either need to suck less, or switch classes.
If teamwork is too much for you, play solo.


Agreed.

Zorafim
Sep 20, 2007, 01:31 PM
In AoI, everyone will have access to four spells in one palette spot, correct? Fortes will have rods, hybrids will have both madoogs and wands. Losing access to one palette spot doesn't seem so bad, comparatively speaking.
And, each buff lasts... 5 minutes, was it? If you advertise a buff, you can get it over with quickly and move on.
Healing, I agree, is the healee's problem. If you're being attacked on all sides, you can't expect anyone to heal you (Though often I am surprised). Pop a trimate, or at least a di and wait by the healer when it's clear.

As for techers, if I'm standing right next to you with 1/10 hp, please heal me. I've stood next to a techer for a good two minutes before popping a trimate because I wasn't healed. It can't be that difficult to check someone's health, can it?

ashley50
Sep 20, 2007, 01:32 PM
On 2007-09-20 11:24, drizzle wrote:

On 2007-09-20 10:17, RyukiZero wrote:
Anyone who classifies them as support, apparently is too lazy to be one themselves. "Where's my Resta/Buffs?!"

Yeah. No. Shut up you lazy people, and stop using others to heal/buff you. If they want to, that's THEIR decision, not yours.




If you need to be told to buff, you either need to suck less, or switch classes.
If teamwork is too much for you, play solo.

OR...don't play any class that uses techs AT ALL. Just go fF or something...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ashley50 on 2007-09-20 11:58 ]</font>

Pillan
Sep 20, 2007, 01:34 PM
On 2007-09-20 11:03, Typheros wrote:
Who says you have to pick support or offense?

Guntechers are masters of offhanded guns, so it's very easy to be on the offensive while keeping your buddies alive at the same time. Crossbow + Restawand = fear.

Personally, I think the game's way more fun that way. Even on my Force, I actually enjoy supporting and attacking all at once because it keeps everything fast-paced and varied. Always gotta be on my toes watching out for everyone, and that ends up being too much fun.


My sentiments exactly.

I think the issue here is the definition of a “support class”. Support doesn’t mean you just sit back and buff, debuff, and heal all day. You’ve got a 4 minute gap between buffing, you only have to debuff once per spawn (if at all), and people aren’t dying left and right. It just means you should buff when you see no one is buffed, heal when you’re near someone who has low HP, and go back to killing stuff for the other 3.5 minutes between the buffing/healing.

Hrith
Sep 20, 2007, 01:42 PM
Nurses not hybrids!

fireant
Sep 20, 2007, 01:50 PM
On 2007-09-20 11:03, Typheros wrote:
Crossbow + Restawand = fear.

Thats why I play as a Guntecher. Its easy to heal and do damage.
For example
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_ak.gif (right trigger) heal. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_ak.gif and so on.

Kion
Sep 20, 2007, 01:50 PM
Mixed techers are support classes in that they hacve the option of doing so. For fighters, the heals and buffs definately help alot, so they're going to look to who ever can provide them in a party.

Guntecher is useful for giresta and anti, as it's a mid range mobile class and can get to parties members in order to heal status ailments.
In terms of resta and buffs, we heal less than daimates, and have very limited range on gimped buffs. using items makes it much easier as no one really cares to stand around for eight casts of resta for a full heal.

Wartecher is alittle better as alot of wartechers will generally have buffs for melee and heal techniques as well. if there's no fortetecher in the party, you may be able to count on a WT for atleast shifta and deband. just be aware that they're not as used to dishing out the goods as FT's, so be sure to ask nicely for them.
with wartecher, the problem is pallet space as there are no madoogs yet, so wartecher generally leaves out supports in favor of melee. three wands for buffs and support leaves only three spaces for weapons, which is really limiting especially with their poor PP consumption. wands maybe linked with foie, or some tech with an SE to suppliment their melee selection.

panzer_unit
Sep 20, 2007, 01:50 PM
On 2007-09-20 11:34, Pillan wrote:
I think the issue here is the definition of a “support class”. Support doesn’t mean you just sit back and buff, debuff, and heal all day. You’ve got a 4 minute gap between buffing, you only have to debuff once per spawn (if at all), and people aren’t dying left and right. It just means you should buff when you see no one is buffed, heal when you’re near someone who has low HP, and go back to killing stuff for the other 3.5 minutes between the buffing/healing.


Even Fortetechers can handle the basics like that. Someone playing _as_support_ will hit you with buffs mid-fight to quickly reverse debuffs, they'll pop reverser right away when you get stuck with a worse status, and they'll take care of your HP even if you get in over your head. They CHOOSE to play like that instead of getting everyone looking good between fights, and doing nothing in combat except for casting attack techs and going for a mysterious AFK for a minute or so whenever their Diga crits for over 3000.

chibiLegolas
Sep 20, 2007, 01:51 PM
On 2007-09-20 11:31, Zorafim wrote:
In AoI, everyone will have access to four spells in one palette spot, correct? Fortes will have rods, hybrids will have both madoogs and wands. Losing access to one palette spot doesn't seem so bad, comparatively speaking.
And, each buff lasts... 5 minutes, was it? If you advertise a buff, you can get it over with quickly and move on.

Except (from my understanding) madoogs have significantly less PP. And buffs on those where discouraged once you have high lvls of buffs, no?
I guess we'll have to see once AoI finally comes out. Lets see how much PP we can crank out grinding those suckers.

Zorafim
Sep 20, 2007, 01:55 PM
Well, the PP is shared between the wand and 'doog, so it shouldn't be too much of a strain. There should be some high PP 'doogs coming out, right? Kubaras?

-Ryuki-
Sep 20, 2007, 02:22 PM
That wasn't very nice, Sasami.

DEM_CIG
Sep 20, 2007, 02:38 PM
They are support... for the fortetechers especailly 4 dul fakus if u only have 1 true techer.

SolomonGrundy
Sep 20, 2007, 02:43 PM
this will be less of an issue when chainsawd becomes available. I think the reason non techer types are crying is because there is no more 'twins' photon blast, and no HP drain specials on weapons anymore.

I was VERY used to not getting healed by forces in PSO. Chainsawd, faster mates, and universal armor made sure that a respectable leveled Cast (and I played a RAcast, HUcast, and HUcaseal) did not get beat up too bad, and could always get healing when needed.

Spellbinder
Sep 20, 2007, 02:48 PM
Hah... It's topics like this that make me miss FFXI. There, everyone knew what they were expected to do, and they did it well. I never tried doing heavy damage as a pld, the whitemage never nuked, the red mage never meleed (got too many bomb tosses, they eventually stopped trying), the warriors never tanked. The party preformed at its highest capacity, simply out of necessity.

Now we have people rambling about "I shouldn't have to do it if I don't want to", while the party is preforming at 70% capacity. If you're grinding at a hotspot anyway, why not do your job so that you can get out of there quicker?

This I had to comment on. Trying to compare Final Fantasy 11 to this game is incomprehensible and should never ever be mentioned on these forums ever again....ever...


I never tried doing heavy damage as a pld

Paladins were made with extremely High Defense, Provoke to keep targets on them, moderately low attack power, and Healing skills to suport themselves and keep aggro at the same time. They were made to take damage, not to attempt heavy damage.


the whitemage never nuked

Did you even have to try to mention this? Any FFXI Player with brain cells knows that a Black Mage sub's attacks are resisted HEAVILY, and to attempt attacking monsters with a cycle of Banish and Holy is just... well it makes me lose braincells trying to talk about it.


the red mage never meleed

In some instances this is debatable, but such situations are far and few between it's not worth discussing. Red Mages were idolized for their Refresh, and mix of other Support and Debuffing skills, it's what they were made to do simply put.


the warriors never tanked

A Tanking Warrior... now this is possible only after level 70 with Ninja Sub, and even then it's very shaky. Put him next to a Paladin, and the Paladin's ability to draw absurd amounts of attention from a monster would put him to shame anyway. So what do they do? Beat the snuff out of monsters, it's what they do.


The party preformed at its highest capacity, simply out of necessity.

Let's take a look at that:

Necessity -noun, plural -ties.

1. something necessary or indispensable: food, shelter, and other necessities of life.
2. the fact of being necessary or indispensable; indispensability: the necessity of adequate housing.
3. an imperative requirement or need for something: the necessity for a quick decision.
4. the state or fact of being necessary or inevitable: to face the necessity of testifying in court.
5. an unavoidable need or compulsion to do something: not by choice but by necessity.

The party played out of Necessity because they HAD TO. In 90% of cases with a FFXI Party, JOBS CAN ONLY BE PLAYED ONE WAY WITH ONE ROLE.

A Fortetecher has equal ability in Offensive and Supportive Technics.
A Wartecher has a mix (that I am not fully aware of, I admit) of Offense and Support through Melee, Technics, and Support Technics.
A Guntecher has a mix of Offense and Support, but to my understanding focusing moreso on their Bullets than their Technics.

Am I saying they should neglect any of their abilities? NO
Am I saying these characters, depending on the party setup, are multifaceted entities capable of playing more than ONE role? YES!!

No character should be pigeonholed into doin one task if their capable of more, but should never neglect any part of what makes their character them.

RegulusHikari
Sep 20, 2007, 02:57 PM
On 2007-09-20 12:07, Sasamichan wrote:

On 2007-09-20 11:42, Hrith wrote:
Nurses not hybrids!



WARNING: Retard alert!



Except he pretty much summed up exactly what I've been hearing in these topics.
I just want to play the game I pay for. My characters have PAs that I want. If they don't include certain buffs, too bad, be happy with what you get. Sorry I slowed down your runtime by 4.827%.

There are Trimates and -rides for a reason. Use them. I do.


Some fT are too busy busting nukes to bother with healing. So guess what?!? Only the hybrids are left.


Ridiculous bull shit argument. If the FT is too lazy too heal/buff, don't pressure ME to do so. Most FTs I see play FT exclusively, not 4 or 5 different classes like myself.

OldCoot
Sep 20, 2007, 03:15 PM
Anyone who can use Resta is going to be looked at for support. I don't know how many players show up for a run and do not carry mates to save meseta.

Akaimizu
Sep 20, 2007, 03:26 PM
Well, at the moment. GTs generally can't be relied to maintain a full support suite. At least when Heals and Buffs come into play. Their current great level 10 limitation does mean they have to literally be on top of you to actually land those kind of techs on you. And the way the party spreads out, covering complete support is a true taxing and one of the hardest accomplishments in this entire game, from a GT. However, it is the most satisfying to pull off, in the game; because there really isn't much of anything else that requires as much work.

The other side of the GT support issue really is in the guns. For Status Effects, taking on extra damage, and in some cases, drawing aggro. (perhaps a Prism for monster herding to one location and limiting their chance to attack or cast techs)

Anyone who has played with me knows I try my darndest to support while doing my thing, but that's all a part of the challenge. I was all about support in PSO, and in this game, I basically found a new challenge in support, as well. Believe me, when AOI comes out. The level 30 support techs is flipping on the Easy Mode switch. That's like the equivalent from going from Master Ninja mode in Ninja Gaiden, to Normal.

Rett
Sep 20, 2007, 03:40 PM
Ok first of all I wish people would read the title of the post, This post posted a question about hybridtechers ie Guntechers and WarTechers, not forces and fortetechers. This was about people exspecting those hybrid classes to be just support. A foretecher be support ? thats not hard to see but when I am the best class with the bow (Guntecher) why would I stop and heal you when I can be doing damage or setting things aflame ? So again the point is yes we can heal and yes we can buff and yes we do it, but thats not our sole function. Also when I am on missions is the techers that do most of the killing because everyone else is begging for heals but we won't get into which classes are more practical.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 20, 2007, 04:00 PM
Anything with -techer in its name should focus on support primarily.

It's just basic courtesy.


Anyone who doesn't realize this should go play one of the classes where you just hit things until they die.

panzer_unit
Sep 20, 2007, 04:00 PM
On 2007-09-20 13:40, Rett wrote:
This was about people exspecting those hybrid classes to be just support. A foretecher be support ? thats not hard to see but when I am the best class with the bow (Guntecher) why would I stop and heal you when I can be doing damage or setting things aflame ?

You seriously expect a techer to stop dropping 4000+ point attack techs and heal, so you can squeeze in like one more 700 point hits attacking with a BOW?!

... okay.

Well I guess it does take a GT quite a while to run halfway across the room to a teammate who's trying to dodge attacks and not die, and then cast enough resta's to fix them up.

Kion
Sep 20, 2007, 04:16 PM
On 2007-09-20 14:00, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Anything with -techer in its name should focus on support primarily.

It's just basic courtesy.

Anyone who doesn't realize this should go play one of the classes where you just hit things until they die.



Ffuzzy-Logik, you live up to your name; that is some fucked-up logic.

blkbeast
Sep 20, 2007, 04:19 PM
huh wartecher now tell me what comes frist when you read that....WAR right....come on keep up all those who think ALL techers should be support...
huh guntecher now tell me what....see where im going....we can be support but its not our main job it doesnt say supporttecher=hybrid now does it?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 20, 2007, 04:26 PM
On 2007-09-20 14:16, Kion wrote:

Ffuzzy-Logik, you live up to your name; that is some fucked-up logic.

Not really.

Random Fortefighter: OMFG I'm hurt sum1 prz help me!!11!1 Shame I don't have Restalolz.
Idiot -techer: LOL NO, AM 2 BUSY WIT ALL MAH BIG NUMBARZ 2 HALP U ROFL JUST GO DIE I DUN CARE LAWL



If you have the ability to help someone at little to no cost to yourself yet you refuse, you're just a dumbass.

Zorafim
Sep 20, 2007, 04:27 PM
This post posted a question about hybridtechers ie Guntechers and WarTechers, not forces and fortetechers.

There should be no difference. If you're the best supporter in the party, it's selfish not to support, and detrimental to your goal.


when I am the best class with the bow (Guntecher) why would I stop and heal you when I can be doing damage or setting things aflame ?

By the same logic, fighgunners shouldn't use traps since they're too busy tornado dancing everything. What does it matter if that silence trap would have prevented a megid casting, or that burn trap would outdamage half the party?
If there's a nitch to fill, it's most effective to the whole party to fill it. If you don't like part of a job, then switch to a job that doesn't have to deal with that. There should be enough jobs out there where you could find one you like better, after all.

blkbeast
Sep 20, 2007, 04:28 PM
On 2007-09-20 14:27, Zorafim wrote:

This post posted a question about hybridtechers ie Guntechers and WarTechers, not forces and fortetechers.

There should be no difference. If you're the best supporter in the party, it's selfish not to support, and detrimental to your goal.


when I am the best class with the bow (Guntecher) why would I stop and heal you when I can be doing damage or setting things aflame ?

By the same logic, fighgunners shouldn't use traps since they're too busy tornado dancing everything. What does it matter if that silence trap would have prevented a megid casting, or that burn trap would outdamage half the party?
If there's a nitch to fill, it's most effective to the whole party to fill it. If you don't like part of a job, then switch to a job that doesn't have to deal with that. There should be enough jobs out there where you could find one you like better, after all.


yar yar he right he wins!!!!!

Menochi
Sep 20, 2007, 04:28 PM
If you want someone to support a group, just ask for a support-minded player in the party comments. Or mention that you actually support, regardless of class.

On PSUJP I no longer ask for a FT, I just ask for any support type, and those kind are usually some of the better support-minded players.

Zorafim
Sep 20, 2007, 04:31 PM
On 2007-09-20 14:28, blkbeast wrote:
yar yar he right he wins!!!!!




Hey, I hear beasts turn in to you in the expansion. Do you dual wield axes?

Rashiid
Sep 20, 2007, 04:41 PM
my theory is

11+ support techs = able to heal.

it depends how you look at it:

if a fortefigher is DEMANING resta from say a guntech; thats just stupid.

too much HP; could drain an entire wand (especially Cast GTs; low LOW TP)

Wartech....you got some radius; dont see why not.

if you pick a class that has the ability to use Resta; EXPECT to heal.

especially in the expansion; where just about every teching class has 21+ support techs.

Randomness
Sep 20, 2007, 04:49 PM
Healing is one thing, and buffs are another.

Consider that maybe not everyone has a turbo controller or the patience to sit in a buff party. Thus, thier buffs are REALLY low level.

Personally, I'd choose someone who restas over someone who buffs anyday.

Syl
Sep 20, 2007, 04:52 PM
On 2007-09-20 14:41, Rashiid wrote:

if you pick a class that has the ability to use Resta; EXPECT to heal.



Pretty much. Of course, I'm a GT that heals, because I can heal for 720+ when I'm buffed, but that's partly due to my Sori/TECH Charge (which i got because healing for around 430 sucked). I don't buff because it's rather pointless with lvl 10 buffs lol.

I heal when I feel it'll be effective. Like Rashiid stated, it usually takes me 4 restas to fully heal a fF, even if I heal a lot for a GT. It's helpful to fTs as they can concentrate on other tasks, but it doesn't mean that it makes me the main healer. I only heal when your hp is in the helpable zone. If you're in yellow or pretty low, I at least expect the fT to heal everyone or for you to use a trimate.

But that's just how I play. If you don't want to heal other players (I mean seriously, playing GT just so you can save money on mates?), then go play fortegunner.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 20, 2007, 04:57 PM
On 2007-09-20 14:49, Randomness wrote:
Healing is one thing, and buffs are another.

Consider that maybe not everyone has a turbo controller or the patience to sit in a buff party. Thus, thier buffs are REALLY low level.

Personally, I'd choose someone who restas over someone who buffs anyday.

Getting all four to 11 takes only like an hour and a half, and all to 21 only takes like 5 or so hours.

In other words, not really that long.

Syl
Sep 20, 2007, 04:59 PM
On 2007-09-20 14:57, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-09-20 14:49, Randomness wrote:
Healing is one thing, and buffs are another.

Consider that maybe not everyone has a turbo controller or the patience to sit in a buff party. Thus, thier buffs are REALLY low level.

Personally, I'd choose someone who restas over someone who buffs anyday.

Getting all four to 11 takes only like an hour and a half, and all to 21 only takes like 5 or so hours.

In other words, not really that long.



I'm slowly working on my buffs (got retier at 21, the rest at 15-16). I'd rather be useful and up to my full potential than being a lazy GT.

pso123hrf
Sep 20, 2007, 05:38 PM
On 2007-09-20 09:13, Rett wrote:
I just want to know why some people have this misconception. Post after Post I read Wartecher and Guntecher are support classes. Why do you people think that ? Yes I have a resta wand, but what makes you think its to heal the Fortefigther and ForteGunners ? I have a resta wand so unlike some people I don't run out of mates in the first room of an S or S2. So please tell me why you people think we are support ? Is it because we give up damage for the ability to heal and buff ourselves (note ourselves not other people) ? I really want to know.



because people are able to feel free to think?

darthplagis
Sep 20, 2007, 06:04 PM
i dont see the point of using a buff for a fortefighter beast that demands it then charges in and gets EVERY KILL and RED ITEM before forces and gunners are anywhere near cos they are switching rods to heal and attack ones .

any forte class should understand that they are in a bracket of specialist support, rangers add status effects from afar, forces heal and debuff (maybe buff) with strong attack techs when posible (due to the support part of their job they need a strong comeback) then the fighters add the stun/knockback with the main brunt of the damage.

the thing is some players (im not generalising but it seems VERY true) mainly the beast fortefighters and figunners (note the figunners NEVER have guns just a pallette of double sabers) run around and see you are a techer of a sort and demand the buffs and heal. then these said players take great offence when i point out that sega said beasts were in general made for new players hence the high HP and ATP as new players often only care about attacking. then they take great offence when i point out i am a GUNtecher and use guns more than techs.

sorry for the rant but there are some really ignorant people out there and they narc me so much.

Pillan
Sep 20, 2007, 07:27 PM
On 2007-09-20 11:50, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-09-20 11:34, Pillan wrote:
I think the issue here is the definition of a “support class”. Support doesn’t mean you just sit back and buff, debuff, and heal all day. You’ve got a 4 minute gap between buffing, you only have to debuff once per spawn (if at all), and people aren’t dying left and right. It just means you should buff when you see no one is buffed, heal when you’re near someone who has low HP, and go back to killing stuff for the other 3.5 minutes between the buffing/healing.


Even Fortetechers can handle the basics like that. Someone playing _as_support_ will hit you with buffs mid-fight to quickly reverse debuffs, they'll pop reverser right away when you get stuck with a worse status, and they'll take care of your HP even if you get in over your head. They CHOOSE to play like that instead of getting everyone looking good between fights, and doing nothing in combat except for casting attack techs and going for a mysterious AFK for a minute or so whenever their Diga crits for over 3000.


I meant for it to come out as buffing the instant everyone loses buffs, healing every time someone’s HP gets low, and debuffing everything still leaves you with nothing to do for the other 80-90% of the time. It isn’t that hard to stop for 2 seconds to heal, cure, or recast a lost buff, unless you’re dealing with the weapon lag on the PS2 version.

Why people don’t do it, however, is beyond me…

MSAksion
Sep 20, 2007, 07:27 PM
Speaking as one who has played all 3 types of TECHERS;

Guntechers; Ya'll can stop shooting for 2 seconds to emergency REVERSER the team for a bit while i stop with the Casting animation so i can run over and REALLY perform my team duties.

Wartechers; can't you guys stop slashing twin sabers for a few seconds to whip out a RESTA on the near dead frozen FIGUNNER who is in MID-Tornado-dance when i'm trying to wake up from that scape doll after being trampled to death in a One Hit Kill.

Wartechers more than Guntechers need to help more with the healing duties even though its lvl 20 only currently. Team hunters are up with the Wartecher already and its less of a hassle for WT than a Guntecher or Fortetecher to rush up to the front lines and provide emergency healing.

But with AOI coming soon now even Wartechers get level 30 support. So now everyone has the same range and status buff and debuffs. Sure no CAST guntecher can match a Newman Fortetecher in RESTA power...

...its REVERSER that is more important. The range on lvl 21+ reverser is larger than the rings show it seems and if a Guntecher with level ONE reverser can get me out of a frozen icicle i can handle the healing of the team so we can keep killing stuff.

So are Hybrids CONSCRIPTED into Healing the team? Yes. Why choose a job that can heal if you won't heal?

Ezodagrom
Sep 20, 2007, 07:32 PM
On 2007-09-20 10:59, Kimil wrote:

On 2007-09-20 09:34, Ezodagrom wrote:

Wartecher was going to get lvl 30 attack techs and lvl 2030 support techs



Fixed



There was nothing to fix http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif


Wartecher was going to get lvl 30 attack techs and lvl 20 support techs, but now looks like they're getting lvl 30 support techs



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezodagrom on 2007-09-20 17:34 ]</font>

omegapirate2k
Sep 20, 2007, 07:55 PM
Resta party members, perhaps.

BUFF party members, however?

No thanks.

ThEoRy
Sep 20, 2007, 07:59 PM
Look, I'm an experienced fT and first off i'd like to say that for me, my team comes first. I don't understand fT's that only nuke. I cant even fathom it. Yeah I'll nuke the shit outta any monster there is but if a team mate goes into the yellow or gets affected by a SE I'm right on it. It really only takes less than a second to heal and get right back to damaging techs. So I don't see how this in any way affects your OMGZ No DPS for a whole entire second!! Another minor grievance I have is with players who argue with me telling me not to debuff. Whuza? You don't like double shifta/deband? Or seeing much less zeros(especially axe users)? Ok retard whatever you say. Taking 3 seconds to debuff does not effect my dps either considering all of the extra damage the TEAM will accumulate over the course of the run. Key word there being team. Trust me, I've timed Lab Recovery both with and without debuffing numerous times. With debuff was in fact several minutes faster consistently. Not to mention that's it's a hell of a lot safer to run a muck out there after I tone those bastards down a few notches.

On to hybrid techers. This is all I expect of you. Your role, weather you like it or not, is to back me up. You know, resta when I can't, if I'm too far away or knocked down or SE'd. Which is where you can really shine as a hybrid techer. Keep the fT alive!! If anything, that should be your biggest responsibility on the techer side of your class. If I'm frozen or stunned there's simply nothing worse than waiting the entire SE duration watching your health wither away while others simply refuse to learn how to use a sol or star on the techer. "uhh it's not on my tool palette". This is where Hybrid techers can really be at their best. If all you do on the tech side are these few simple things, you will be the greatest thing that ever happened to hybrid techers. Ever!

Menochi
Sep 20, 2007, 08:09 PM
Boy, any grenade launcher users with dourenga are going to have one hell of a time on your servers....

Sophia
Sep 20, 2007, 08:18 PM
On 2007-09-20 18:09, Menochi wrote:
Boy, any grenade launcher users with dourenga are going to have one hell of a time on your servers....

Yes, we need more submissive masochist loli techers that can heal us~

omegapirate2k
Sep 20, 2007, 08:20 PM
On 2007-09-20 18:18, Sophia wrote:

On 2007-09-20 18:09, Menochi wrote:
Boy, any grenade launcher users with dourenga are going to have one hell of a time on your servers....

Yes, we need more submissive masochist loli techers that can heal us~



I play with Sychosis, thats all the masochist techer I'll ever need.

Menochi
Sep 20, 2007, 08:21 PM
4k damage a shot on bosses, but 15% of that damage taken. Takes 4-3 shots to kill me, depending on if any crit or not. And its not even level 21+ yet. I don't even use it unless I've got someone healing anymore. XD

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 20, 2007, 08:24 PM
It's really no different than the dipshit forces who refused to heal berserk spammers back on PSO.

beatrixkiddo
Sep 20, 2007, 08:25 PM
On 2007-09-20 16:04, darthplagis wrote:
i dont see the point of using a buff for a fortefighter beast that demands it then charges in and gets EVERY KILL and RED ITEM before forces and gunners are anywhere near cos they are switching rods to heal and attack ones .


Welcome to PSU, where we have loot distribution options!

Menochi
Sep 20, 2007, 08:25 PM
At least berzerk didn't kill you in PSO.

beatrixkiddo
Sep 20, 2007, 08:26 PM
Would have made being a Force more fun. When you had a resta range that hit everyone in the room and easily fully healed anyone but a RAcast, FO on PSO was a little too easy.

blkbeast
Sep 20, 2007, 08:32 PM
On 2007-09-20 14:31, Zorafim wrote:

On 2007-09-20 14:28, blkbeast wrote:
yar yar he right he wins!!!!!




Hey, I hear beasts turn in to you in the expansion. Do you dual wield axes?


i hear yes and no...no real spefic info...who me i wield lawl yes but in epxansion idk you know sega lawl

GreenArcher
Sep 20, 2007, 09:37 PM
On 2007-09-20 18:24, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
It's really no different than the dipshit forces who refused to heal berserk spammers back on PSO.



Yes because if you sir are purposely killing yourself I should be your babysitter.

My ass; use a trimate. I would never submit to resta-spamming just because someone wants to go 'zerk-frenzy, that is CLEARLY past the line. Sure, a few people will do it but it is unreasonable to expect it.

Vickie
Sep 20, 2007, 09:40 PM
Hybrids are the shit! (just thought id throw that in there)

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 20, 2007, 09:43 PM
Selfish much?

fG spamming Boma Duranga + fT Resta slave = more damage than fG spamming something else + fT spamming Diga


But whatever.

beatrixkiddo
Sep 20, 2007, 09:47 PM
BUT THEN I WONT GET THE KILL SHOT

GreenArcher
Sep 20, 2007, 09:50 PM
On 2007-09-20 19:43, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Selfish much?

fG spamming Boma Duranga + fT Resta slave = more damage than fG spamming something else + fT spamming Diga


But whatever.



Talk with numbers when you're talking about numbers, not words.

beatrixkiddo
Sep 20, 2007, 09:52 PM
On 2007-09-20 18:21, Menochi wrote:
4k damage a shot on bosses, but 15% of that damage taken. Takes 4-3 shots to kill me, depending on if any crit or not. And its not even level 21+ yet. I don't even use it unless I've got someone healing anymore. XD

Pillan
Sep 20, 2007, 09:52 PM
On 2007-09-20 19:43, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Selfish much?

fG spamming Boma Duranga + fT Resta slave = more damage than fG spamming something else + fT spamming Diga


But whatever.


Don't confuse people with your "logic". Everyone knows nothing beats a GT, WT, or fT's damage, so instead of gimping your party by making them take on the support load, everyone should just bring Stars and Sols to support them.

I thought we would have all figured that out by now...

Menochi
Sep 20, 2007, 09:57 PM
On 2007-09-20 19:37, Green_Archer3 wrote:

On 2007-09-20 18:24, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
It's really no different than the dipshit forces who refused to heal berserk spammers back on PSO.



Yes because if you sir are purposely killing yourself I should be your babysitter.

My ass; use a trimate. I would never submit to resta-spamming just because someone wants to go 'zerk-frenzy, that is CLEARLY past the line. Sure, a few people will do it but it is unreasonable to expect it.



Its a difference of killing a boss in 2 minutes instead of 15. And its only for the boss usually.

3 shots of the grenade launcher can kill me, and its not even capped. I can go through 20 trimates easily.

Like I said, it'll be interesting to see what happens when that PA gets released. I doubt it'll see as much use.

If you want numbers, I'll get them and screenshots for you tomorrow.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Menochi on 2007-09-20 20:02 ]</font>

GreenArcher
Sep 20, 2007, 10:00 PM
That data is far too general. Give me a real argument pl0x

As in:

Side by side comparison of F Newman 10, whatever fG 10 damage at comparable level, equips, PA levels, etc.

Not:

X hits for Y damage, clearly it is superior to everything.

beatrixkiddo
Sep 20, 2007, 10:03 PM
Well I believe Menochi is around 80 as is my (male though) FT. Fully buffed, I do like 600 with a Diga (Diga's like 13).

Pillan
Sep 20, 2007, 10:07 PM
On 2007-09-20 20:00, Green_Archer3 wrote:
That data is far too general. Give me a real argument pl0x

As in:

Side by side comparison of F Newman 10, whatever fG 10 damage at comparable level, equips, PA levels, etc.


It's a 350% ATP mod and 86% ATA at level 30 (check the JP wiki). I don't think any more math than that needs to be done to show it's more powerful than anything a -techer can throw.

Menochi
Sep 20, 2007, 10:11 PM
Cast is level 90 already. I have a few female newman fortetecher friends with 30 diga I can have them do a side by side comparison.

I'll fraps one of the fiesta missions, first with de ragan, with me using ice grenade launcher and force using diga.
Then de ragnus, with me duranga and force healing. That way you can compare visuals. Since I suck at number crunching, seeing is believing.

gryphonvii
Sep 20, 2007, 10:33 PM
When I am a WT or GT I focus On attack with guns or sword, because I am better at that, I constantly get annoyed by people who get hit for a hundred then demand a resta. One of the reason s I returned to fighgunnere

GreenArcher
Sep 21, 2007, 05:47 AM
On 2007-09-20 20:11, Menochi wrote:
Cast is level 90 already. I have a few female newman fortetecher friends with 30 diga I can have them do a side by side comparison.

I'll fraps one of the fiesta missions, first with de ragan, with me using ice grenade launcher and force using diga.
Then de ragnus, with me duranga and force healing. That way you can compare visuals. Since I suck at number crunching, seeing is believing.



Do you have Barada Riga 30 to test too?

Rett
Sep 21, 2007, 08:49 AM
wow man I was mistaken, I thought that people could actually stay on topic when I posted something but it looks like there still are people who like to rant about random things in posts (we shall call them Idiots). So I feel comforted we still have idiots in the world. Atleast they make the rest of us look smarter.

Also Megastar is gonna mess up alot of people then, if you guys think that techers are there to buff and heal, cause I personally know some techers that are going to buff them selves and just move on.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rett on 2007-09-21 06:53 ]</font>

Sychosis
Sep 21, 2007, 09:07 AM
On 2007-09-20 18:20, omegapirate2k wrote:

On 2007-09-20 18:18, Sophia wrote:

On 2007-09-20 18:09, Menochi wrote:
Boy, any grenade launcher users with dourenga are going to have one hell of a time on your servers....

Yes, we need more submissive masochist loli techers that can heal us~



I play with Sychosis, thats all the masochist techer I'll ever need.



You forgot submissive n_n

But fuck that loli shit. Sychosis don't play dat.

As far as Boma Durega or whatever it's called goes, I'll resta spam on bosses, but Darius better not try that crap on normal mobs or his metal ass is on his own.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sychosis on 2007-09-21 07:14 ]</font>

Menochi
Sep 21, 2007, 09:16 AM
On 2007-09-21 03:47, Green_Archer3 wrote:

Do you have Barada Riga 30 to test too?



Do you mean boma riga? Its currently at level 11, but even at level 30, its the same attack power as level 1 durenga (205% ATP)
boma riga, 68% accuracy and projected 205% ATP at level 30
boma durenga 86% accuracy and 350% ATP at level 30
cast female level 90 has 949 ATP (grenade launcher hits 4x)

Diga 280 TP mod at level 30
1664 TP at level 93 (closest level that we have with stats to lv90 cast, diga hits once)

boma riga is level 11, boma durenga is level 14 right now. If you want me to have both at lv30 (for 'fair' comparison) then you'll have to wait a while, as theres lots going on for the JP version right now.


On 2007-09-21 06:49, Rett wrote:
wow man I was mistaken, I thought that people could actually stay on topic when I posted something but it looks like there still are people who like to rant about random things in posts (we shall call them Idiots). So I feel comforted we still have idiots in the world. Atleast they make the rest of us look smarter.

Also Megastar is gonna mess up alot of people then, if you guys think that techers are there to buff and heal, cause I personally know some techers that are going to buff them selves and just move on

Finding a good example where any class who can resta is helpful is fairly on topic to me. Helping a team get things done faster, hybrid or not, with resta, makes a big difference. This is merely an example.


On 2007-09-21 07:07, Sychosis wrote:

As far as Boma Durega or whatever it's called, I'll resta spam on bosses, but Darius better not try that crap on normal mobs or his metal ass is on his own.


I think I've only ever used it on things vandas, koggs, and grinne bettes (though the last one could be considered a boss since its 3x hit and stuns them)

Using it on, say, a pack of bajira is suicide, support-minded techer or not.
Resta is nice, buffs are nice, if you're the only person who can do it in a group, be nice and help the group. If you only care about yourself, you're not going to be staying in the group for more than one run.

Akaimizu
Sep 21, 2007, 01:25 PM
I generally play in groups as support first. I've even had to give up some individual power just to support better. I generally back off on certain duties I see others doing better. That's just the ebb and flow of the game, and the way I play. I play for balance and doing whatever the party is missing, so everybody gets better. Of course, landing a good SE4 on certain monsters is a part of my aid. When I'm the main one that can do it, that's my contribution to bringing the big guys down a heck of a lot faster. It's also probably secretly why no monster ever dies to one, the last hit to kill always must be an actual impact attack.

That's the power of the hybrid class, and while you can't do everything, you have plenty of abilities to fill in whatever the current void is. And that void changes even within one mission, or even in the midst of the battle. It's also, more than any other task one can say (or even just a comparison of numbers), the most important skill to learn. Because it benefits not only the whole group, but it has benefits from the social aspect of it. Both go hand in hand, when it comes to online communities in general.

But enough about that. I do what I do and the only thing I would ask for is some understanding of my limitations. If all heck breaks loose, and people are separated doing stuff, and people are getting hurt. We're in the midst where one wrong move would immediately kill me as a human female guntecher, don't get angry at me if I didn't get the opportunity to reach within the small radius of healing, in time to save you. At times, the decision is more like, how can we keep us both alive as opposed to both of us dying. There are times I have to coax or manuever so that I can heal us without my healing attempt being in a spot where death approaches before the heal could be cast. And of course, the issue of having to swap to the heal wand at a moments notice. Control-wise, not a problem. I can literally fly through the pallete using fast fingers, but the loading of said equipment, and timing for which I can cast is a lot slower. So I've actually had split decisions that really paid off, in more unusual methods. Stuff like knowing I wouldn't reach them in time, and thus utilizing the fast repeat aspect of twin handguns to lead the immediate danger away which in turn created a better opportunity for me to get to them and heal. A decision where a quick weapon swap and fire was many times faster than a weapon swap, close long distance, stop and cast.

Part of that reason is that the Guntecher controls the fight from a distance. When we draw aggro, we depend on not being close to survive as being too close, for quite a few monsters, is guarranteed death regardless of skill and manueverability (well, what SEGA gave us for manueverability due to limited run and slower side-step speeds). It's a skill to not be at the wrong place at the wrong time. So yep, for survivability, that often leaves us in a position to be forced to run to people in order to heal because our safety zone just happens to be far enough away a level 10 resta would not reach.

It's why I've been preaching (for the longest time) for people to broaden their conceptions of what support is, and what are great ways to contribute to the team. One can concentrate on numbers, and that's fine and all, as that does get people thinking and offers decisions; but in an action game..more than numbers come into play. Rudimentary behavior tactics, with some methods of play, can often have more battle significance than any specific number can ever influence.

And with that...I'll do my best, (with a Forrest Gump expression) and that's all I can say 'bout that.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-09-21 11:46 ]</font>

PALRAPPYS
Sep 21, 2007, 01:52 PM
I didn't read any other posts besides the first in this thread, but I've seen so many other threads just like this I know what other people have said. To answer the Thread's Title's question-

Because they can. A WT who just sits there and let's the Fortefighter who comes up to them and has like 200 hp. Whatcha gonna do? The WarTecher better heal him. Or else he thinks wasting 30/40 PP off a wand that SHOULD have at least 600 PP is a bad idea. Ya know, when you should have Photon Charges with you.

EphekZ
Sep 21, 2007, 01:57 PM
On 2007-09-20 10:01, Zorafim wrote:
Forces and hybrids are the only classes that can support, and supporting makes a big difference. In other words, they're expecting you to be helpful.
How would you like to party with a gunner that doesn't use traps, or a fighter that doesn't use knockups and stuns? If you have it, use it.



qft. They didn't give you the ability to use it so you can just run to a corner and whore it for yourself.

edit: regardless, if you blame a FO for your death then you need to get over yourself. They're there to support not and they can only do that if you play smart.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: EphekZ on 2007-09-21 12:03 ]</font>

Reipard
Sep 21, 2007, 04:18 PM
I played a Guntecher because I wanted to be a healbot with the ability to shoot stuff. Therefore, I am a support healer. My level 10 tech limit has not stalled me from this goal and limited support is pretty much all level 10 techs are good for, ever.

I'll be happy to see my support techs go to 30. I'm at my happiest when a party lets me babysit them http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

EJ
Sep 21, 2007, 05:16 PM
Because we wartechers are a support and anyone who has party with can tell you that I buff and debuff better than any wartecher and even fortetecher out there and at the same time attack while healing so I find it hard to believe it is that hard to heal people and still go on your attack. We have lvl20 tech and in AOI 30 support and offensive techs so give us even more reason to support because hybrid class are supporting role and a good team need a good supporter since I rarely see FT heal anyone because they are too busy seeing big number of their techs.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 21, 2007, 10:57 PM
On 2007-09-21 06:49, Rett wrote:

Also Megastar is gonna mess up alot of people then, if you guys think that techers are there to buff and heal, cause I personally know some techers that are going to buff them selves and just move on.
They'll figure out what's up when they start getting booted and never get invited to any parties.

There are only two reasons anyone would ever really want a force in their party: support and robots.

Rashiid
Sep 21, 2007, 11:01 PM
WHY DO PEOPLE THINK HYBRID TECHERS ARE SUPPORT ?

WHY DO PPLZ THINK BY GOING HYBRID THEY ESCAPE FROM SUPPORTZ LOL LOL

EphekZ
Sep 21, 2007, 11:07 PM
On 2007-09-21 21:01, Rashiid wrote:

WHY DO PEOPLE THINK HYBRID TECHERS ARE SUPPORT ?

WHY DO PPLZ THINK BY GOING HYBRID THEY ESCAPE FROM SUPPORTZ LOL LOL



http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Hatemachine
Sep 22, 2007, 12:27 AM
Personally I say rely on yourself anyone with you that makes it easier and more fluid all the better meanwhile im here to murder anything that gets targeted and scavenge rares,exp,meseta,PA frags,and mission points.

Healing and buffing are not REQUIREMENTS to play the game or achieve the end goal.

Only reason im interested in this is I have A FT I never play anymore it just became boring for me felt like I wasnt making a difference so I went back to playing my Fortegunner and Fighgunner and thinking of making my FT a GT or WT less likely WT since he's pretty weak with the ATP and was looking for what people thought about GT and WT classes in general consensus so I dont end up being relegated to total support only as soon as anyone see's a wand in my hand turns out for the most part it's true most folks rlegate them to this role.

im gonna do whatever the hell I want anyway boots or none I play and pay for this game I can be a selfish bastard about it if thats how it's viewed I do my part by being there and killing anything that moves.

Heal when it's necissary but dont burden the other player to be responsible for your actions if they are good at healing and do it you wont usually have to worry cause they know what they are doing and a heal will be coming fast

otherwise keep yourself standing if they decide not to and continue firing off a plethora of damage spells lettem they are doing their part it's just not what YOU may want or need at that time.

maybe a diversified Techer class setup could be suggested specialists perhaps? lord alone knows this games still got lottsa life to it we may see something like that in time.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 22, 2007, 12:29 AM
Anyone care to translate the above post?

Or even add punctuation?

EphekZ
Sep 22, 2007, 12:30 AM
On 2007-09-21 22:27, Hatemachine wrote:
a bunch of stuffs



you're a true hero. we salute you.

Zantra
Sep 22, 2007, 12:34 AM
On 2007-09-20 09:13, Rett wrote:
I just want to know why some people have this misconception. Post after Post I read Wartecher and Guntecher are support classes. Why do you people think that ? Yes I have a resta wand, but what makes you think its to heal the Fortefigther and ForteGunners ? I have a resta wand so unlike some people I don't run out of mates in the first room of an S or S2. So please tell me why you people think we are support ? Is it because we give up damage for the ability to heal and buff ourselves (note ourselves not other people) ? I really want to know.



It's because... you touch yourself, at night.

I can't believe that i'm the first one, to give him this answer... what's the world coming to?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 22, 2007, 12:36 AM
We've come to the point where the vast majority realizes that old jokes are ooooooooooooooooooooooooold.

Thank God.

Zantra
Sep 22, 2007, 12:40 AM
On 2007-09-21 22:36, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
We've come to the point where the vast majority realizes that old jokes are ooooooooooooooooooooooooold.

Thank God.



God... what's a God?
Please don't tell me, you're going to turn this man's thread, into a religious discussion... for shame.

Reipard
Sep 22, 2007, 10:14 AM
Don't blame him. Blame yourself or God.

Sychosis
Sep 22, 2007, 10:18 AM
On 2007-09-21 20:57, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-09-21 06:49, Rett wrote:

Also Megastar is gonna mess up alot of people then, if you guys think that techers are there to buff and heal, cause I personally know some techers that are going to buff them selves and just move on.
They'll figure out what's up when they start getting booted and never get invited to any parties.

There are only two reasons anyone would ever really want a force in their party: support and robots.



And for the second one, there is always Killer Shot :/