PSU-PC/PS2: Elememtal Changes

[XDeathX]

So how has the elemeantal dmg boost changed in the expansion? Or higher ATP weapons like S ranks much better. How do low % S rank compare to high % A rank or 20% S compared to 50% A?

[Reipard]

Everyone goes on about the elemental damage as if it makes perfect sense, but I haven't understood the logic behind this from the beginning.

I am interested in an explaination as well.

[XDeathX]

So far I have only seen many different assmuptions. None of which makes absolute sense.

[XDeathX]

Indeed.

[Golto]

From the one example of melee ele % damage I've seen it doesn't look good. Lower elements are weighed better but the overall damage bonus from them is a lot lower. 26% twin claw needed the just attack critical to equal what it would have done before the changes. Instead of the ele % bonus being applied to total atp after PA % it is just base on weapon atp.


Before change with melee

total damage = (((character atp+ unit atp+ weapon atp)* pa %)* (1+weapon element %))* buffs etc - monster dfp

after change with melee

(((character atp+ unit atp+ weapon atp)* pa %)+ ((1+weapon element %)* weapon atp))* buffs etc - monster dfp

It might not look like much of a change but consider character atp over 1000 at the higher levels and how high some pa % can get.

Since ranged bullets can't do just attack ele % seems to be calculated the same but with lower ele weighted higher. ex 10% doing 16%.

So what this can mean is ST expects you to do Just Attacks all the time when doing melee PAs. Probably pretty easy to get the hang of.

[Deragonite]

-_- newmans will suck even more at melee wartech'ing

[Golto]

On 2007-10-02 09:42, Deragonite wrote:
-_- newmans will suck even more at melee wartech'ing



Actually if what I've seen and theorized is true for melee pa damages, the damage gap will be less between the races. Since character atp is not a factor anymore in the ele % bonus damage.

[XDeathX]

Most say that S ranks shall always overpower A ranks no mater the %. 10% S over 50% A, etc.

How true or false is this?

[pikachief]

does this mean that when i sold my S ranks and bought 50% A ranks...... that was a horrible idea!?

[XDeathX]

So much for your S rank pallete. If this is true, after the cup, S ranks are going to be the new A ranks and everyone shall be like me. S rank palete and zerotollerance would be destroyed by me.

[pikachief]

On 2007-10-02 13:40, XDeathX wrote:
So much for your S rank pallete. If this is true, after the cup, S ranks are going to be the new A ranks and everyone shall be like me. S rank palete and zerotollerance would be destroyed by me.



yea i'd make fun of tehm but then they'd all delete my card and B-list me http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

I think its cool when ZT actually WANTS to do missions with me!

But im too popluar even for ZT cuz i never seem to have time to paly with him XD

[XDeathX]

Madrox still has my card...Wierd.

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-10-02 06:47, Reipard wrote:
Everyone goes on about the elemental damage as if it makes perfect sense, but I haven't understood the logic behind this from the beginning.

I am interested in an explaination as well.



In layman's terms, they are basically changing the way damage is calculated (ever so slightly!) to lessen the importance of the element percentage of weapons and increase the importance of the weapons acutal ATP for each strike.

A 50% 9* weapon will still do more damage than a 20% of the same weapon, however the increase in damage will be more subtle.

The hope is that (for example, rough estimate for demonstrative purposes!) a 20% 10* dagger will do about the same damage as a 50% 9* dagger, thus making the 10* dagger superior and a true upgrade from the 9*.

The same goes with armor %'s, BTW! A 50% armor will still be good, but it won't eclipse the protection that a higher * ranked armor of decent percentage gives.

[pikachief]

buh-buh-buh i just sold my S ranks T_T

oh well i sitll have like 4 mil left over i'll just save that XD

(I needed a saber anyways http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif )

[Zorafim]

Hm, I like that formula. Elemental percentages matter, but not as much. Plus, weapon ATP is added twice, making two handed weapons even more overpowered.

I'll assume that the armor formula looks similar?

[pikachief]

two handed weapons, twin weapons, or both?

[Zorafim]

Two handed weapons have higher atp, and the weapon's atp is counted twice in this formula. The current advantage that twin weapons is that they get better faster than two handed weapons due to character ATP (at least with normal attacks), but since weapon ATP is counted more times than character ATP, two handed weapons will still come out on top.

[Reipard]

Are you sure those formulas are right, Golto? Last I remembered there was something along the lines of 5 ATP = 1 HP damage in the original formula.

[Zorafim]

I believe it is an estimation. As long as it's close to the actual result, I don't mind some fluxuation.
Either way, it may be that this formula calculates final atp, which is used in another formula to find hp loss (or this formula is divided by four to get the hp loss).

[Golto]

I still haven't got an accurate elemental damage reduction formula for the old way. There's always more damage reduction than the element %. The element might multiply the amror's stats and reduce damage by the % to account for the difference in the old way. Right now 50% armor with 8% mega rainbow reduces damage by close to 79% for my character.

Actually atp is still divided by 5 but the monster's total dfp is divided by 4.

So its something like ((total atp/5)-((monster dfp + shield or whatever)/4)).

That makes every 5 atp you increase damage increases by 1 but every 4 dfp you increase damage goes down by 1. This can be observed by equipping/unequipping arm units that increase atp and using non-opposite/ non-the same elements against monsters. Taking element % completely out of the picture.

If we really want a more concrete answer to the element % changes we need a lot of help from someone playing the patched JPN versions. Or we can wait until we get the patch. I know I will be doing melee and ranged tests before and after we get the patch.

[XDeathX]

Seems no one playing Aoi sees this.....

[Golto]

Well I tried but some people don't believe that only melee and armor got the gimp in the elemental deptartment. I guess we just have to be patient and wait for the pre-AOI update patch.

[Zoamel_Gustav]

On 2007-10-02 15:27, Golto wrote:
I still haven't got an accurate elemental damage reduction formula for the old way. There's always more damage reduction than the element %. The element might multiply the armor's stats and reduce damage by the % to account for the difference in the old way. Right now 50% armor with 8% mega rainbow reduces damage by close to 79% for my character.
Are you taking into account the %s from the enemy's "weapons" or the 5% from the enemy's "line shield"?

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-10-02 09:35, Golto wrote:
From the one example of melee ele % damage I've seen it doesn't look good. Lower elements are weighed better but the overall damage bonus from them is a lot lower. 26% twin claw needed the just attack critical to equal what it would have done before the changes. Instead of the ele % bonus being applied to total atp after PA % it is just base on weapon atp.

Hold on, that just doesn't make sense.

Your 26% total ATP bonus is being reduced, let's say it's being WIPED OUT even... how did you get to the point where you have to get a 50% critical hit damage boost just to deal the same damage?

[Golto]

The weapon in the example I saw was Twin Claw which is what 25% compared to the new female beast atp.

So which do you think is a bigger bonus 26% of twinclaws' atp or 26% of total atp? Less than 100 atp compared to around 1000 atp in the old way. Weapons like axes won't see as much as a dramatic decrease in element % bonus but its still a lot less.

[Tamashi]

In short, 50% A ranks won't be as strong. Allowing S ranks to do enough damage to be competeable.

[Kylie]

This is good news to me. I've always thought elemental damage played too large a role in combat...

[Zorafim]

Me too. I think an elemental bonus should be nice, but not necessary. It's fairly difficult to make a themed character when I'm forced to use a polar opposite element with her.

[Mayu]

~remembers a picture of

a certain JP person doing 6000+ Dmg too bad I can't seem to find the picture (50 axe)

With stat change
With elemental changes

So hmm....

MEH

I'm still a god
as long as I use 50% weapons



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mayu on 2007-10-03 16:15 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mayu on 2007-10-03 16:15 ]</font>

[Golto]

Yes they did 6k damage but it was with the 3rd combo of Anga Redda which is idk 400%? atp.

[Mayu]

So they had stat changes
PA'S more better

~shakes head~

It won't matter -.-
Just makes low %'s More useful

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Uh, sort of right, but the "1+ele%" should be "5+%," and weapon ATP shouldn't count twice. Probably more something like this:

New Eqn.
(ATP+units+[weapon ATP*{element%+5}])*PA ATP Mod % * buffs

Old Eqn.
(ATP+units+weapon ATP)*PA ATP Mod %*(element%+5) * buffs

EDIT: Made a wonderful typo.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-10-03 16:34 ]</font>

[Zorafim]

Ah, then axes and daggers are balanced, and the world is safe.

How accurate do you think that formula is?

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Well, I totally pulled the equation out of my ass, but if I had to make an equation, it'd be that one. It only makes sense to do it that way (apart from the random-ass +5 to %, which I never have understood).

[Zorafim]

Hm, I hope it's right. If it's true, then elements are right where they should be.

[Zoamel_Gustav]

On 2007-10-03 16:43, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
It only makes sense to do it that way (apart from the random-ass +5 to %, which I never have understood).
I think that is because creatures "wear" 5% "line shields".

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Uh, no, that makes no sense, considering all current enemies have an element modifier of 100%.

[Golto]

I've never bought into the add 5% deal. The formula I use for the old way has been very accurate. Always falling into the random damage range except Ank Bico of course. Since we don't know how the elements are now weighted I can't get a clear understanding of element damage for melee at least witht he new method.

[Zoamel_Gustav]

On 2007-10-03 17:12, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Uh, no, that makes no sense, considering all current enemies have an element modifier of 100%.

Is there a source for this? I'm not sure of what you mean by "100%".

Do you mean Individual Stat Modifier of Attr. is 100%? Base Attr. is 5%.
http://psupedia.info/Monsters

What I'm trying to say is (weapon element%+5%) really means (weapon element%+linesheild element%) where a monster's linesheild element% always equals 5%.

[XDeathX]

Just wish to know how a 20% S rank compares to a 50% A rank?

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-10-03 15:54, Golto wrote:
The weapon in the example I saw was Twin Claw which is what 25% compared to the new female beast atp.

So which do you think is a bigger bonus 26% of twinclaws' atp or 26% of total atp? Less than 100 atp compared to around 1000 atp in the old way. Weapons like axes won't see as much as a dramatic decrease in element % bonus but its still a lot less.


Ok hold on, let's take a step back here.

The old way you had a 155% PA modifier for example, and a 26% boost from element. Now, even non-elemental, you've got a 155% PA modifier and a 50% boost from Just Attack critical hits. How does the new way only end up being about equal to the old? It just doesn't make sense.

EVERYONE should be doing damage about equal to an old 50% weapon thanks to Just Attack, and then some more if you've got really high element weapon.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-04 07:11 ]</font>

[physic]

Its a case by case thing, but usually it will still be stronger, just not so much as a big deal as before. if the element only applies to the weapons stats, then, looking at say a dagger, lets say its

220 atp on A rank 50%
250 atp on S rank 20%

so atp boost on a rank, 220+(50%220) or 330 atp overall
atp boost on S rank 250+ (20%250) or 300 atp overall

so for daggers, that 30% more is barely better dmg, whereas before with the overall calculation, 30% would be applied to your super big base atp and there was seldom competition.

but if you take a high atp weapons

1244 50% a rank axe = 1244 +(1244x.5)=1866atp
1361 20% s rank axe = 1361 +(1361x.2)= 1633 atp, which is like 200 atp dif which isnt as small but still not killer

personally i would think it would be formula would be

(base + units etc +weapon(1.elemental%) )x PA % but who can say.

anyhow yeah the % matter, just not as much as they used to, and you got to look at each case o decide what teh real trade offs are

[Golto]

Jagdpanzer in the old way element % bonus was based on total atp. So for most weapons your character atp will be more than the weapon especially the smaller melee ones. I gave an example if you can't understand I'm sorry. I'm getting a bit confused now too heh. I wish I could find that vid or pic that Menochi posted that showed online damage using those 26% earth twinclaws. Looking at the figures compared to some melee I tested recently I'm too not sure about the element % change anymore. I will feel a bit ashamed if I started a false rumor of melee element % damage being gimped and it wasn't.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-10-02 09:35, Golto wrote:
26% twin claw needed the just attack critical to equal what it would have done before the changes.

This is the part I don't get, Golto. I don't see how it supports what you're saying happened to elements. JA critical is a 50% damage boost, right? That's a lot bigger than a PSU-style 26% boost to total ATP.

What I missed before is you saw this just from watching a video and there could be any number of differences... character level, units, enemy level and DFP...

[Golto]

Ok it was an overstatement and miss-calculation me saying it will require 50% crit to equal the old way of 26%.

Menochi was kind enough to dig up the link
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w106/tancients/clawlove.jpg


weapon atp 386
character atp + weapon atp + unit atp =1544
pa % = 203%
weapon element % = 26%

Critical just attack plus shifta lvl 21-30 I think +20%
lvl 110 Go Vahra speculated dfp 392

damage looks to be 1191
lets try to take out monster dfp
392/4 = 98
1191 + 98 =1299 add dmg reduction from monster's dfp

1299 * 5 = 6495 convert dmg to atp
6495 total atp
take out shifta
6495 * .83333333 =5412.5
take out critical
5412.5 *.6666666666 =3608 atp
so 3608-3134 = 474 atp bonus from element
15% increase in damage with PA from 26%

New way 26% turned to 15% the old way

Old way 3134 * 1.26 = 3948.84
Old way Atp bonus from 26% element=814 atp

Ok this might be a coincidence
Possible new element % (weapon atp * (1 +element %))
386 * 1.26 = 486.36
486.36 is very close to the 474 I figured out and since I can only see one clear damage but it very well could fall into the damage variance. 12 atp ~2 more damage with crit and shifta maybe a max of 4 more damage.

Now lets see what the damage might be if use the old way

3134 * 1.26 = 3948.84
shifta
3948.84 * 1.2 = 4738.608
critical
4738.608 * 1.5 =7107.912
(7107.912/5)-(392/4)=
1421.5824 -98 =1324
1324 - 1191 = 133 damage difference in favor of the old way

So in conclusion element gimping not as bad as I first thought.

[SolomonGrundy]

I believe this is why they boosted charater ATP/TP. Since elemental damage only affect the weapon, they needed a way to make any given weapon deal *about the same amount of damage.

Increasing ATP, and changing the damage modifier for low ATP weapons is a wy to do this.

Now, why they changed spinning break (a sword- high ATP) PA modifier I have no idea. Possible different issue (the PA was weak for it's cost).

[panzer_unit]

Golto I follow you as far as how we got 3134 (total ATP * PA, non-elemental) and 3608 (real PA atp, elemental) ... the difference is 474 ...

If I use the formula (total ATP + (weapon * ele%)) * PA:
(1544 + (386 * 0.26)) * 2.03 = 3338 ... it's not enough I think. Even if you adjust it up 5% for enemy elemental defense, that only comes out to 3500. I don't think weapon variance goes ABOVE the listed ATP. Maybe enemies are 10% elemental? That would match better and make low-element weapons count for more since you get a big boost just for hitting with the right ele.

Here's an alternative that I think is pretty elegant and comes much closer with the numbers given: [total ATP] * (PA + ele) ... all it takes out is the compound effect of high PA% * high element % together. You can use a high-% PA to close the performance gap with higher-% weapons, or vice-versa.

1544 + (2.03 * 0.26) = 3535 ... if you adjust it up 5% for enemy element "line shield" it goes to 3700 or so.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-10-04 10:23 ]</font>

[physic]

you know, they actually tell you the atp of the attack in the stat screen for the Pa or weap or something, a good test would be to simply compare those numbers hmm nevermind that number doesnt include the % so you have to back do it. unfortunately though the % on Pas isnt exact, different parts of a Pa have dif bonuses, so who knows



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: physic on 2007-10-04 10:35 ]</font>

[Golto]

Jagdpanzer your forumla might work, remember elements are supposed to be weighted differently now so if 26% is really 29% or 30% your forumla works. What we need is a good range of different weapon types and element %s for a better understanding.

[SolomonGrundy]

golto - i would think you'd only need 4 weapons.

a low ATP weapon, one with no element. The same weapon, this time with a common elemental % (say 20%, for the sake of argument).
I would suggest kubara twin daggers


A high ATP weapon, again with no element. And the same weapon, this time with same elemental % as the weapon above).


There is no need to use a photon art, as you are not testing PA damage, you are testing elemental damage.

[XDeathX]

Did anyone notice that for spinning strike and gravity break only, hard power charge gives you a 200 dmg boost, instead of 50.

Why is that?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XDeathX on 2007-10-05 07:13 ]</font>

[Zorafim]

50x4=200. Notice the atp modifiers on those two PAs.

[majan]

I'm pretty much glad this happened. because it worked out to our advantage to be able to do such high damage with a 44-50% 3 or 4 star item,but it also defeated the purpose of actually having higher ranked items.9* items were prestigious only because they were the best before the S ranks.the onyl way to get high %s with them is to get really lucky or have the money to shell out to mass produce them,which is far,far easier to do with lower ranked weapons with cheaper materials.

now,the S ranks will truly stand out as the BEST weapons in the game,and there will actually be a difference between a 50% 4 star single dagger and a 24% deva zashi.

it will make life a little crappier for those who mass synth the lower ranks for high %s but given that hte new synth system will have things averaging at 25% ballpark,rather than 10%,the change should be pretty well balanced.

::golf clap::
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_beer.gif

[physic]

well a 50% will generally still beat a 25% in atp boost

[MrNomad]

On 2007-10-05 20:08, physic wrote:
well a 50% will generally still beat a 25% in atp boost

Not to mention if that S rank 25 % is a certain "kubara" product > >

[XDeathX]

On 2007-10-05 08:31, Zorafim wrote:
50x4=200. Notice the atp modifiers on those two PAs.


Where does the 4 come from? And how does the atp modifier effect how effective hard power charge is?

[Golto]

Atp is atp doesn't matter if it is from the character or unit. Pretty simple those pas have high atp %. Do the math if you do 50 more damage without using a pa how much would you do with a pa 380%?

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

[b]On 2007-10-03 18:31, Zoamel_Gustav
Is there a source for this? I'm not sure of what you mean by "100%".


Lolya, my bad; they have 100% of the base 5%. Just had it backwards in my mind there.

[Remius]

The reason they did it is because its retarded how most A rank weapons can be way better than S ranks based on elemental percentages.

Not only did they reduce the impact of element, but they increased the base power of all the weapons. (They generally do more damage now.)