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redroses
Oct 7, 2007, 08:23 AM
Hello,

I would like to ask some questions about Buffing, Debuffing and Acrotecher.

First of...a noob question. Do debuffs count as support technics too?

And a other question would be how good everyone thinks debuffs are? Are they just as helpful as Buffs, or worse or better?

What about a Acrotecher that focuses more on Debuffing than Buffing, bad idea?


+ one random question.
Which race would be good for Acrotecher? I heard Newmans are supposed to be good. But would a Beast work too?

I appreciate every reply and help =]

Rizen
Oct 7, 2007, 08:29 AM
I'm no expert on AoI but I can try to answer you questions.

I believe debuffs count as Support Techs.

Many people over look the use of debuffs, mostly because they think "its a waste of time" to cast them. In my opinion, debuffs are just as useful as buffs. They are nice to have around, but not 100% necessary.

And I think that many people who are going to be playing AT for focusing on buffs and debuffs....that or whips. But thing this, only focusing on one point AT will more than likely make it weaker than if you were to use all aspects of the class.

Hope this helps.

BigBadWolf
Oct 7, 2007, 08:40 AM
Debuffs are great. I can't tell you how many times Accuracy debuff has saved me from certain death against large mobs. And of course unlike other Force techs, it tags EVERYTHING. Good for if you want to buff players but don't want to lose exp. If you debuff as AT you might as well buff, since they only work when buffs are up.

redroses
Oct 7, 2007, 11:47 AM
I was planning going in the direction of both, buffs and debuffs.

Now i'm just wondering how could a Beast would do as Acrotecher. As De-/Buffs don't depend on TP....but on HP? (sorry i forget what it was). And Beasts would be able to do more damage with whips and the other weps. It would just look bad with Shadoogs as they depend on TP.
And wondering how useful attacking technics would be by a beast, becuase they atleast go up to level 30 on AT.
Maybe something like Dambarta would be useful?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Oct 7, 2007, 11:58 AM
Well, I plan on trying beast AT in AoI. I tried it in the beta, but AT was way different back then, and I only got to level 20.

Anyway, all support spells except Resta (and Giresta) depend only on tech level; TP doesn't factor in at all. For that reason, I think beast will probably be ok at AT. We'll loose a little in the way of attack techs, but by the time you debuff everything, most of the enemies will probably already be dead, so whatever. We'll be quite good with the daggers, whips, cards, and sabers, though.

Shou
Oct 7, 2007, 01:20 PM
I am going AT in AotI. I have planned this since before Fire Break even started.

Debuffs are not as good as Buffs. The reason is because buffs (at lvl 31+) increase your stats by 25% <- amazing BTW
Debuffs lower monsters' stats by 25% (at lvl 31+). They basically do the same but when your charecter is buffed, those buffs stay on you for an entire block or more with one cast. However, Debuffs you must keep on casting with every new monster that pops up.

Debuffs can still be EXTREMLY useful if you use them in the best ways.
Ex. Say a monster has 2000 HP and you cast Zalure to lower the monster's DEF by 25%. If you attack that monster using physical damage, it is like you just dealt that monster 500 damage. If you are doing TECH damage, its like you did notheing to it at all >.>;

BTW Debuffing does not hit every enemy. Debuffs can tag up to 6 enemies at a time just like any other tech.

*The best way to lvl debuffs is (if you are on PC) to download an auto-click program so that all you have to do is hold down a button and it will count as you pressing it repeatedly. Then, go to Linear Line C and lock it. Go to a corner where there are at least 6 Panons (sry for spelling) and tape down the button and go to sleep xD. i did this and they whent from like lvl 12 to lvl 28 in one night of sleep xD

ThEoRy
Oct 7, 2007, 01:55 PM
Debuffs = Super Win
Enemies become significantly weaker offensively and defensively. Also decreasing the monsters accuracy and evasion is extremely useful. Just ask axe wielders! Weaker enemies = safer, faster kills. Of course you shouldn't waste time debuffing smaller enemies which would die in a matter of mere seconds anyways. Pannons, poulty etc.
Now if only there was a white debuff. I know it would be extremely situational but still, it just kills me seeing all those white arrows pointed up!

Kion
Oct 7, 2007, 05:57 PM
debuffs are usefull in that they increase the gap that you gain from buffs. if you boost 25%+ on attack and then take down 25% on deffense from an enemy then you've made the increase in damage delt quite siginicantly!

as buffs last for a long time, it's pretty easy to buff every few rooms and debuff enemies as you come across them for increased damage. it's not like you're having to cast seven techs everyroom, just two which you can easily have handy on a madoog.

in terms of leveling; i suggest mad creatures C. You can find the map that's exactly like where buffs are leveled in block 3 with the cube. make sure you get the map with 4 polties and you can stand there debuffing them with the cube right next to you. saves a hell of a lot of time compared to other spots where you have to constantly leave the mission to hike to the recharge cube outside and then back to where you where.

BigBadWolf
Oct 7, 2007, 05:58 PM
Debuffs are going to play a huge roll in AoI, when monster hp and defense becomes ridiculously high.
Also I believe Zodeel is an essential Newman debuff, our shoddy hp and def is suplemented by our ridiculously high EVA stat. Unfortunately steady Evasion will NOT take effect unless both Zodial (buff) and Zoldeel (debuff) are activated. It sucks that just Counter does jack for technics sense we are the ones that could really abuse it.

Players don't use debuffs because by themselves they don't do anything. They are more like combination abilities in that they must be used in conjuction with something else for the effect to go off. So it's really up to the individual's play style if they find debuffs useful or not.

Edit: Also maximizing damage through debuffs in general requires a bit of teamwork, and teamwork rarely goes on in a typical PSU exp party.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BigBadWolf on 2007-10-07 16:05 ]</font>

Lunasol8888
Oct 7, 2007, 07:17 PM
I believe debuffs are important to the group as well. There is a common belief in maximizing the potential to do dammage, so doing both buffing and debuffing would be a good idea instead of focusing on one or the other.

However, i don't believe they fall under the support catagory. To me since you're inflicting the mob they would fall under the attack technique catagory. Not 100% sure how the game works, but thats just my 2 cents on how it works.

As for the question to Acro Techer. If it works out that Debuffs count as support tech, I guess you could do that since the majority will probably have buffs. If they count as offensive techs then i wouldn't rely on it as much.

Reipard
Oct 7, 2007, 07:22 PM
Debuffs are also a nice way to tag a large group so you don't HAVE to worry about keeping up with the melee.

mvffin
Oct 7, 2007, 07:36 PM
anything that doesnt deal dmg is a support tech.

the only debuff i use a lot is zalure, since killing things fast seems to be all that matters anymore. jellen maybe for large physical attackers. zodial for bees or deljabans.

ever since pso days, i've used shifta/zalure to max out damage. its great.

Saigan
Oct 7, 2007, 07:41 PM
As a support force I enjoy buffing once every few rooms, debuffing each enemy group, and sitting back with Resta/Reverser. If things go as they should I sometimes don't even have time to nuke.

Mystil
Oct 7, 2007, 07:57 PM
I've been debuffing since the PSO days. Even in PSU jellen and zalure is still very useful. Zodeel was a welcome add to the debuffing lineup. Debuffing even helps with buffing everyone isn't possible at the time.

ErtaiClou
Oct 7, 2007, 08:12 PM
This is why I'm going to enjoy twin maylee as an AT.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Oct 7, 2007, 08:29 PM
On 2007-10-07 18:12, ErtaiClou wrote:
This is why I'm going to enjoy twin maylee as an AT.

Uh, why? You'll have Zalure up to level 40, why would you use a weakass bullet that uses too much PP to get a lower level Zalure instead?

BigBadWolf
Oct 7, 2007, 09:13 PM
This may be slightly off topic but how does the buff overide system in AoI work?
Like can I still overide my own buffs, or do I have to wait 'til they all were off to rebuff the party?
If it's the latter it's gonna be very annoying.

Regardless I guess I'd have to jump into a buff party and get those annoying support techs to 30 before AoI hits.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Oct 7, 2007, 09:17 PM
In terms of overrides, it's the same as in current PSU.

In other words, buff parties still work.

PALRAPPYS
Oct 7, 2007, 09:25 PM
Not enough palette space.

Seems I see very few people besides me complain about the lack of palette space in this game. Hm.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Oct 7, 2007, 09:26 PM
To be honest, Madoogs will fix any palette space issues for AT and WT.

ErtaiClou
Oct 7, 2007, 09:57 PM
On 2007-10-07 18:29, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-10-07 18:12, ErtaiClou wrote:
This is why I'm going to enjoy twin maylee as an AT.

Uh, why? You'll have Zalure up to level 40, why would you use a weakass bullet that uses too much PP to get a lower level Zalure instead?

O wait, I'm supposed to be helping the rest of the party? o.0'

beatrixkiddo
Oct 7, 2007, 10:08 PM
Debuffs still suck http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Remedy
Oct 7, 2007, 10:15 PM
On 2007-10-07 20:08, beatrixkiddo wrote:
Debuffs still suck http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gifCause reducing your enemies' ATP, ATA, EVP, and DFP by 25% is so terrible. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Remedy on 2007-10-07 20:15 ]</font>

Kion
Oct 7, 2007, 10:45 PM
On 2007-10-07 19:25, PALRAPPYS wrote:
Not enough palette space.

Seems I see very few people besides me complain about the lack of palette space in this game. Hm.



My invisioned pallet for AT goes something like:

dagger + handgun
twin dagger / twin handgun
wand (attack) + cards
wand (attack) + cards
whip + madoog (debuff)
wand (buffs) + maddog (buffs)

the acro- classes are nice as they specialize in one handed weapons so fitting nearly everything onto a pallet is probably going to be easiest for them. Although, i do completely agree that we need more pallete space as we're getting new weapons and abilities for each class but nowhere to put them.

Mystil
Oct 7, 2007, 10:56 PM
On 2007-10-07 20:15, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-10-07 20:08, beatrixkiddo wrote:
Debuffs still suck http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gifCause reducing your enemies' ATP, ATA, EVP, and DFP by 25% is so terrible. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Remedy on 2007-10-07 20:15 ]</font>


Yea when AOI comes out I'm going to unlearn them and convert them to discs and then sell them.

My buffs too. And resta.

Onry need reverser.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Oct 7, 2007, 11:00 PM
Spoilers: You can't sell PA discs.

Mystil
Oct 7, 2007, 11:49 PM
Its all good. I'll drop them.

LOL

Genoa
Oct 8, 2007, 12:07 AM
As a guntecher, I use Shifta/Zodial and Jellen/Zalure CONSTANTLY. I debuff EVERY new spawn. It really does make a difference, even lvl.10. That's a 10% increase / decrease. Now you can't just say "well that's like a 20% combination" No, it's not. It's a 10% increase for YOUR stats, and a 10% decrease in THEIR stats, so if you're fighting things stronger than you... Yes, Debuffs can be MORE usefull. Why boost your silly 300 ATP when you can decrease their 500+ ATP? Depends on what it is though

Regardless, debuffs aren't used enough. Post AoI this will be amazing, Even for Guntecher. Lvl.30 support techs and a Madoog/Wand combination for all your buff needs... I will be spamming buffs/debuffs constantly. In fact, I think I support the party more than mosts fT's do >____>

beatrixkiddo
Oct 8, 2007, 12:08 AM
On 2007-10-07 20:15, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-10-07 20:08, beatrixkiddo wrote:
Debuffs still suck http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gifCause reducing your enemies' ATP, ATA, EVP, and DFP by 25% is so terrible. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Remedy on 2007-10-07 20:15 ]</font>


When you consider that adds up to maybe 20 extra damage per hit, yeah, that's a terrible waste of time.

Genoa
Oct 8, 2007, 12:14 AM
Wow, it doesn't take a calculator to prove you wrong >_> an extra 20 damage? Who do you fight, lvl.5's?

beatrixkiddo
Oct 8, 2007, 12:18 AM
http://psupedia.info/Monster_Stats

A normal, 100% DFP modifier enemy has 357 DFP at level 100. 25% of that is 89 (rounded down). Using the assumed rate of 5 DFP to 1 point of damage, that is a whopping 17.8 points of damage.

TranceZiggy
Oct 8, 2007, 12:18 AM
Depends how much damage youre doing. Take Gravity Break, say youre doing 1000 damage per hit, you get level 21+ shifta, and you start doing 1250, then level 21+ zalure comes in, and youre doing 1500... Roughly. Give or take 50-150 for defence stats and elemental %s etc.

TranceZiggy
Oct 8, 2007, 12:30 AM
Touche <.<. Yeah, shoulda realised it was 25% of their DFP, not 25% of your ATP lol

Gen2000
Oct 8, 2007, 01:09 AM
Debuffs are a waste of time for the most part. Most things dies to fast to even notice the difference.

Debuffing Bardia = waste.
Debuffing Carringine = yes please.
Debuffing in a Killer Shot spam party = you want experience too right? Debuff is the fastest way to tag.

Mystil
Oct 8, 2007, 01:21 AM
Haha.

Well anyway to the OP, just remember, there is no pure support class in the game. Don't sell yourself short by trying to be one with AT. Thats not what they're for http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif.

Guildenstern
Oct 8, 2007, 05:40 AM
On 2007-10-07 23:21, Mystil wrote:
Haha.

Well anyway to the OP, just remember, there is no pure support class in the game. Don't sell yourself short by trying to be one with AT. Thats not what they're for http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif.



That's what I was going to say too, haha. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

Ogni-XR21
Oct 8, 2007, 07:35 AM
IMO if you're going to play AT and don't plan to debuff you could just not play AT at all...

But IMO that's what every force should do. In PSO this could be done much quicker though. Buffing and especially debuffing could easily be done at every mob and you still had plenty of time to nuke...

Genoa
Oct 8, 2007, 08:23 AM
There's always going to be tards who don't support the party despite them being one of the few classes that CAN or the ONLY class in the party that can support.

Remember most FOnewms on PSO? Rafoie spam.... that was basically it... You just had better hoped you were close when he was healing...

And if Acrotecher isn't for supporting, then gtfo, because lvl.40 support techs w/out buffs/debuffs is one sad puppy. I dare to see someone spamming a whip around in my party without doing anything else at all.

Sasamichan
Oct 8, 2007, 08:34 AM
On 2007-10-08 06:23, MegamanX wrote:
There's always going to be tards who don't support the party despite them being one of the few classes that CAN or the ONLY class in the party that can support.

Remember most FOnewms on PSO? Rafoie spam.... that was basically it... You just had better hoped you were close when he was healing...

And if Acrotecher isn't for supporting, then gtfo, because lvl.40 support techs w/out buffs/debuffs is one sad puppy. I dare to see someone spamming a whip around in my party without doing anything else at all.



Heh, its like todays fT that aren't buffing(or lack of), but just nuking.

Rashiid
Oct 8, 2007, 08:36 AM
i dont mind support - hell i like supporting.
i nvr was into debuffs tho for some reason....

i'll probably get them; atleast for mini-bosses or larger enemies.
on normal or small critters; it seems pointless; cause buffs already slaughter them.

how much does a 31+ debuff cost? (PP)

Sasamichan
Oct 8, 2007, 08:43 AM
On 2007-10-08 06:36, Rashiid wrote:

how much does a 31+ debuff cost? (PP)



hmm, I'm guessing somewhere around 43-45PP for Lv4.

Mystil
Oct 8, 2007, 10:55 AM
On 2007-10-08 06:34, Sasamichan wrote:
Heh, its like todays fT that aren't buffing(or lack of), but just nuking.

I played with one who stopped buffing parties when he learned that tech that gives all 4 boosts. This while knowing that it only affects the caster. :/ Sometimes I'm glad I got my own force.

SolomonGrundy
Oct 8, 2007, 12:17 PM
I use debuffing to reduce enemy damage to zero. Don't laugh, it works.

Take a high % B rank yohemi armor (I mean 38/44/50). Bring it to the linear line. use deband and jellen. Get hit for zero. Hilarity ensuses. I also use Light-type hoza-senba during sleeping warriors. Reduce golormo's damage to zero, add megiverse. Win.


This works even with 'only' level 20 buffs (I'm a wartecher). I'm sure it will work well with 31+ debuffs too.




(I have heard of a 50% lightning nafri senba that reduces volfu and polhavora damage to zero once jellen is applied. that's hot)

ThEoRy
Oct 8, 2007, 05:56 PM
Yeah its only 20 extra damage per hit.....Let's do some simple math!
Now I'm not a fighter nor a gunner so so I'd like some help finishing the equation here.
Let me just wildly guess with a low ball number until someone more in the know corrects me which would in turn actually greatly increase the value of the final sum.
Let's just say a gunner can get 1 rifle shot per second. thats 60 shots per minute.
60 shots at 20(using the round # found earlier in this thread.) extra dmg. per shot = 1,200 Extra dmg. per minute. Per Player. So if I'm the only techer with 5 Gunners, thats 6,000 EXTRA dmg per minute. Let's also just say you're doing a 10 min. run. over the span of 10 min. thats 60,000 EXTRA damage!

Now again the actual numbers would of course be much higher given the actual data regarding this equation. Especially considering Melee types and what their numbers would look like. This was just a small inaccurate example, but you see where this is going here.

On a final note I can say from a more personal experience from a particular set of lab runs. After having this very argument mind you. We as a team, decided to do some runs on the same map variations with debuffs on and again without. With Debuffs on was faster every time. Period. And let's not even mention how much of an advantage the defensive buffs are.... EDIT: Oh wait, Solomon already did.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ThEoRy on 2007-10-08 15:58 ]</font>

beatrixkiddo
Oct 8, 2007, 06:01 PM
Okay, you did an extra 100 dmg per second. Is that really worth the time and PP cost for the techer to debuff and re-apply to the enemies that it didn't land on, especially when they could be using techs to help spread burn or just do flat out damage?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying techers should do nothing but spam attack techs. I believe buffs and Resta and Reverser are a very important part of a techer's job. However, the debuffs are not as efficient (in terms of the entire party) as attack techs would be.

ThEoRy
Oct 8, 2007, 06:42 PM
On 2007-10-08 16:01, beatrixkiddo wrote:
Okay, you did an extra 100 dmg per second. Is that really worth the time and PP cost for the techer to debuff and re-apply to the enemies that it didn't land on, especially when they could be using techs to help spread burn or just do flat out damage?



To put it simply, yes. Over 60,000 is most certainly worth the extra 1 second taken to debuff every time a mob of mid large/largies spawn. And extra pp cost? Is that the best you got? My pp recharge is on average 3000MST give or take a few regardless of what I do. At that point do you really think pp cost is a valid argument?

mvffin
Oct 8, 2007, 07:19 PM
zalure is the quickest and easiest way to tag all the enemies while helping my team kill faster in the process.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Oct 8, 2007, 07:29 PM
Bea's right; they're only worthwhile in big enemies that stick around for quite some time. Otherwise, the techer could do more direct damage than the gain the entire party gets from the debuff.