? about wartechers in AOI

[BloodKnight13]

Now I've looked through the main topic on what wartechers will get but I remmember reading a topic
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=154328&forum=20
It states that the support skills were going to be able to go to 30 now I'm seeing that it is going to stay at 20. Now my question is will the support skills stay at 20 or will they really go to 30?

thanks in advance for answering my question.

[Kimil]

Lvl 20.
Which means our Buffs are more or less useless now.
Resta/Reverser/Giresta? Still good to go

WT was meant to be a class able to solo well. Giving a soloable class the ability to support a party makes no sense.

lvl 20 Support will just mean we can sustain ourselves without fairly well.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-10-15 15:05 ]</font>

[Dragwind]

I'll still use mine if no available buffers are around, of course. If anyone bitches, they can go use their pills.

[Genoa]

Whoa what? Level 20... So ... Wow, this makes sense, Guntechers, who have lower TP (significantly) get lvl.30 support techs?

Well I suppose WT having lvl.30 Attack techs is still nice =/

[BloodKnight13]

Thanks for the quick response. It's a shame that we won't be able to get lvl 30 support, but at least our attack skills will go to 30.

[Kimil]

WTs will still be usefull as a general character in smaller (rare-hunters) parties, but in 6 man-groups... unless there is a TOTAL lack of Forces, WTs will be out-shone in every possible way.

Melee damage -> beaten by FF, FiG, AF
Ranged Damage -> Beaten, just beaten
SE Application (Foie 30 anyone?) -> Beaten by Rangers
Attack Techs -> beaten by FT and AT ( i think At least, the speed boost applies here )
Support Techs -> Beast by all other Teching Classes. The Frontline edic deal is even useless now since ATs have rediculus Resta Range and have more Def than FT to the point that they can move closer to the front line

Only thing going for WT is that they can do all of the above, which, like I said, fits in smaller parties perfectly

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Hmmm, I'll agree with that. In a small party, WT would still be passable, but it's ridiculously redundant in any decent party.

[Kion]

On 2007-10-15 15:10, MegamanX wrote:
Whoa what? Level 20... So ... Wow, this makes sense, Guntechers, who have lower TP (significantly) get lvl.30 support techs?



It does make sense for GT as with our low TP and level 20 attack techs; the damage is negligable. While support techs don't depend on TP and also play into GT's role of party support.

Wartecher is more of an assault class, so level 30 attack, level 20 support makes alot of sense and it's a good balance.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Spoilers: attack tech damage is always negligible compared to melee.

EDIT: Except robots lolol.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-10-15 15:57 ]</font>

[Miyuki-chan]

Guntechers get a huge TP boost in AoI, so their 30 support will actually be pretty good.
If i remember right they're going from a 38% TP mod up to a 90% TP mod at job level 10, which will put them TP-wise where Wartechers currently stand.


*Note: Yes Guntechers currently have a similar TP mod to classes that dont even use it
such as Fighgunner...*



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Miyuki-chan on 2007-10-15 16:41 ]</font>

[pikachief]

On 2007-10-15 16:35, Miyuki-chan wrote:
Guntechers get a huge TP boost in AoI, so their 30 support will actually be pretty good.
If i remember right they're going from a 38% TP mod up to a 90% TP mod at job level 10, which will put them TP-wise where Wartechers currently stand.


*Note: Yes Guntechers currently have a similar TP mod to classes that dont even use it
such as Fighgunner...*



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Miyuki-chan on 2007-10-15 16:41 ]</font>


but we dont really need the TP....

[Miyuki-chan]

Which is why I made the relation, Guntecher having similar TP to classes that dont even use it is an inherent flaw in the class and I for one am glad to see it's getting fixed.

My Caseal Guntecher will FINALLY have a use aside from being nothing more than a ranger with a Bow...

[SolomonGrundy]

I originally selected Wartecher because fT seemed SO fragile, and all I had to give up was some TP and 10 levels in techs to double up on HP and DFP. I also wanted to have usable MST

I wanted to tech primarily, and have melee weapons as a back up.

AoI changes things a bit. WTs go from providing second best support, to worst. They go from second best techers, to second worst. It's clear from the addition of sword that they are expected to melee *more* - I'm just not sure why they were given S rank wands.

come the expansion, I'll defintely change over to AT. I'm not sure for how long I'll *stay* AT, but high TP, coupled with built in Me / Quick means I can stay true to the original reason I built the character.

[Reipard]

Support stays at 20. And thank god for that. If Guntechers can support sufficiently at level 10 support, then there's nothing saying 20 support is worthless just because the support-centric classes can do it better. That logic bugs me, because the reason they can do it better is because they're support-centric classes.

Wartecher is not. Wartecher is for variety. It is a class that does not die in a few hits, that can heal from the front line, cause magical damage on melee resistant enemies, cause status effects with techs and ranged AND do decent melee damage. It is not meant to excel at everything just because it is perceived to be bad if it does not.

[Remedy]

On 2007-10-15 15:07, Dragwind wrote:
I'll still use mine if no available buffers are around, of course. If anyone bitches, they can go use their pills.Which would be a waste, since -arides are level 1 buffs, and Wartecher buffs are level 2. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

@ Reipard

Being a jack of all trades is great and all, but it's pointless in any sizable party.



On 2007-10-15 17:40, Remedy wrote:
Which would be a waste, since -arides are level 1 buffs, and Wartecher buffs are level 2. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Nope, buff items give level 2 buffs. It's ridiculously easy to test, just time their duration.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-10-15 17:45 ]</font>

[Remedy]

On 2007-10-15 17:43, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Being a jack of all trades is great and all, but it's pointless in any sizable party.In the absence of anyone that can outperform you in any one given task, it's plenty, though. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Kinako78]

On 2007-10-15 17:36, Reipard wrote:
Support stays at 20. And thank god for that. If Guntechers can support sufficiently at level 10 support, then there's nothing saying 20 support is worthless just because the support-centric classes can do it better. That logic bugs me, because the reason they can do it better is because they're support-centric classes.

Wartecher is not. Wartecher is for variety. It is a class that does not die in a few hits, that can heal from the front line, cause magical damage on melee resistant enemies, cause status effects with techs and ranged AND do decent melee damage. It is not meant to excel at everything just because it is perceived to be bad if it does not.



Thank you! That's the reason I like the class! Kinako's staying a WT and that's that.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-10-15 17:47, Remedy wrote:
In the absence of anyone that can outperform you in any one given task, it's plenty, though. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Sure, but look at it this way:

As soon as a fT/GT/AT joins, your techs are worthless.
As soon as a fF/FG/PT/AF joins, your melee is subpar.

Awesome, that covers about every single class. So as long as you're only partying with just other Wartechers, you'll be fine.

[Genoa]

On 2007-10-15 17:50, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-10-15 17:47, Remedy wrote:
In the absence of anyone that can outperform you in any one given task, it's plenty, though. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Sure, but look at it this way:

As soon as a fT/GT/AT joins, your techs are worthless.
As soon as a fF/FG/PT/AF joins, your melee is subpar.

Awesome, that covers about every single class. So as long as you're only partying with just other Wartechers, you'll be fine.


Not really? Please tell me all the techers that constantly have resta ready for everyone at all times, and can reach all players at any second. Tell me the techers out there keeping debuffs on the enemies? Tell me a fF/FG/PT/AF is going to make my melee subpar >____> WT's have a 100% ATP mod, an additional 3% for Humans/newmans. PT has an 80% ATP with an additional 3% for humans? No, Wartechers having great Melee and great TP (and awesome defensive stats, like HP, DFP, and MST) is still going to be amazing. So the other classes will be amazing against certain enemies, but then when they encounter their weakpoint enemies, it becomes harder to cope with.

Support techs are needed always! Not every techer is going to give you their awesome buffs, if they wear off, they probably won't even try to reapply until there's a very nice opportunity, where some people will just do it when it wears off anytime. In fact, I've noticed that using my lower leveled buffs sometimes causes the fT to get jealous and re-cast theirs xD
Just because fT's and AT's have the best resta/reverser doesn't mean WT and GT resta/reverser is going to become "worthless".

Not to mention, (even though I hate it) you can solo much better.

[Remedy]

On 2007-10-15 18:37, MegamanX wrote:
Not really? Please tell me all the techers that constantly have resta ready for everyone at all times, and can reach all players at any second. Tell me the techers out there keeping debuffs on the enemies?Good Fortechers do both (having Resta on all their rods for Resta-on-demand). Just because 90+% of the members of our class are bad doesn't mean we can't do it if we're good. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

lol, debuffs.

Because an extra 15 damage per hit is totally worth it.

[Genoa]

I like how that's the only thing you could come back to me with is lol debuffs , Ffuzzy-Logik, it's also pretty funny how you ONLY mentioned Zalure <____>.
I also lol'd HARD when I read your's Remedy. Yes, Good Foretecher do both. And your last statement makes no sense... Just because 90+% of the members of fT are bad doesn't mean we can't do it if we're good?
What you meant... is 10-% are actual supportive fT's that know how to use fT for it's full potential, and the 90+% are why other techers are DEFINATELY nice to have in a party. IN FACT, I see more support coming from more WT's and GT's lately rather than the attack tech spamming fT's. Am I saying I don't like fT's? No, that's not it, I'm saying that ANY techer is nice in a party.

V-E-R-S-A-T-I-L-I-T-Y

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MegamanX on 2007-10-15 18:56 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MegamanX on 2007-10-15 18:57 ]</font>

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Don't get me wrong, debuffs are useful in some situations (Jellen on Go Vahras, Zoldeel on Mizura, etc.), but it's a waste of time to debuff every single enemy, because most already do pathetically weak damage, are easy enough to hit, and die quickly.

EDIT: Typed Zodial instead of Zoldeel lolol.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ffuzzy-Logik on 2007-10-15 19:07 ]</font>

[Guildenstern]

On 2007-10-15 18:42, Remedy wrote:
Good Fortechers do both (having Resta on all their rods for Resta-on-demand). Just because 90+% of the members of our class are bad doesn't mean we can't do it if we're good. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

If someone can't manage to stay alive in the 4 seconds it takes me to switch from my Barta rod to my Resta wand, they were a waste of PP anyway. Having Resta equipped on all your weapons wastes the elemental bonus and is a trifle excessive. I only equip Resta on my nuking wand for boss fights, and sometimes not even then-- it's not like I have to worry about the melee I party with as they're all excellent dodgers.

Not having Resta fudging all your rods /=/ bad FT.

...Wartechers are still cool in my book. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gifb I can't wait to see them with madoogs!

[Tita]

i'm a little bummed with supp staying at 20, but a lot of the reasoning here makes sense....

if our attack power was truly second only to FF.
second to PT? come on... is this even true? *help*

(anyone have the stats for WT (and others) in aoi? tried psu pedia but its not working for me at the moment).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tita on 2007-10-15 20:45 ]</font>

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I think PT ends up with something like 4% less ATP than WT in AoI (owow, 4%), but PT has all kinds of other stuff to justify its place in a party.

[Reipard]

Since the arrival of Just Attack, I don't really think there is subpar melee anymore honestly.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-10-15 21:10, Reipard wrote:
Since the arrival of Just Attack, I don't really think there is subpar melee anymore honestly.

I'll agree with that. But still, a WT won't be doing as big numbers as a fF/FG/AF.

[Genoa]

On 2007-10-15 21:12, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-10-15 21:10, Reipard wrote:
Since the arrival of Just Attack, I don't really think there is subpar melee anymore honestly.

I'll agree with that. But still, a WT won't be doing as big numbers as a fF/FG/AF when using melee, but when techs attacks are needed to defeat a melee (and/or) bullet resistant enemy, WT will rise amoung his fighter companions.


fixed

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Unless we're talking about robots, melee will still do better damage to melee-resistant enemies. JA/C makes that difference even more apparent.

[Genoa]

True, but robot Wartechers? What is this =0!
I can understand the additional ATP, ATA, DFP, and HP than humans/newmans... but loosing that awesome TP advatage, MST, and EVP... is absurd!

[Xencia]

Think he means unless you're talking about fighting robots(Such as Grove of Fanatics),your tech damage will be lower then your melee for all races of WTs,on all enemies.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xencia on 2007-10-15 22:30 ]</font>

[Gamemako]

On 2007-10-15 22:27, Xencia wrote:
Think he means unless you're talking about fighting robots(Such as Grove of Fanatics),your tech damage will be lower then your melee for all races of WTs,on all enemies.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xencia on 2007-10-15 22:30 ]</font>


TP and ATP are now exactly the same at level 15 (122%) and the racial modifiers boost both equally (so humans are newmans are 125% on both). The problem is that wands don't get good elemental percents and spells don't have the damage mods of melee PAs (which just got HUGE buffs), not to mention number of hits. But as for winning in ALL cases, I beg to differ. I love watching FF's doing 100 damage per hit to that annoying dog boss thing at the end of Holy Ground. Even if you're a beast, your techs are going to win in that case.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Fine, Zamvapas and robots, but that's about it...

Oh, and Spinning Strike would probably do nearly as well to a Zamvapas, depending on your equipment in question (and race, in this case).

[Reipard]

Some more melee resistant monsters would be rather nice for the techers. People used to need techs for BUGGES and Mizura, but they've been nerfed to the point of complete obsolence and THEN consequently brought to near extinction from every mission.

[Niloklives]

versatility actually means that you'll always have something to do. WTs are extremely versatile and get the ability to melee and cast with ease. I fail to see how not being able to buff as well as other a gimped class...it's a single function that you'll rarely use in a party, look at what else they are capable of, and if you still think that they need buffs to make them worthwhile, don't play the class, you wouldn't do your party much good, running around trying to make sure everyone is 15% more efficient instead of fighting anyway.

its lunacy...people wanting to see everything dumped into one class. "wt's shou;d get rods" "WTd should get S rank claws" "WTs should have lvl 30 support, fuck guntecher" these same whining comments are made about every class..."Fighgunner should get rifles", "every fighter class should get double sabers" "FT should have lvl 40 support" there's no logic behind any of it, people just want to be able to do everything with one class, knock it off and go find out what a team looks like.

WT got a nice upgrade in AoI:
Full combos for two handed weapons (as well as increased damage and accuracy mods)
SE 3 on their bows, the 3rd blade on a fans/cards, and increased elemental damage (and better mods again)
increased damage, duration, speed etc on attack techs as well as improved SE lvls on techs
the ability to use techs and melee at the same time
S rank wands
Swords
Shadoogs
increased ATP and TP

that's a damned good set of improvements and people want more...if that's not enough for you, quit complaining and play a different class, because even if St were to actually indulge you and give you what you wanted, they'd do something for every other class and you be bitching all over again.

the class is balanced now, deal with it

[Sekani]

I just can't believe that people still have the mindset that just because a class doesn't excel in some area that it's worthless. In a six-person party every class is worthless because stuff will die no matter what you do. In a smaller party... well, I think that's already been covered.

This isn't FFXI or WoW, where your class choice actually makes some kind of game-breaking difference.

[Nyreal]

I think that Wartechers can make up for alot of their support deficits with Whips. Aren't whips supposed to be great at spreading SEs? Add this in with level 30 attack techs and you've got yourself a sexy soloing machine.

[Niloklives]

whips are fine, but there's a lot more to it than that. they have a lot going for them, but we're faced with people who feel that a class has to be good at everything or its worthless. this mindset is something I just can't wrap my head around.

[Nyreal]

If there was a class that was good at everything, noone would play anything else. XP

[Niloklives]

thats the point...people are slowly trying to get back their old PSO v1 HUmars

[Kinako78]

On 2007-10-16 07:50, NIloklives wrote:
whips are fine, but there's a lot more to it than that. they have a lot going for them, but we're faced with people who feel that a class has to be good at everything or its worthless. this mindset is something I just can't wrap my head around.



As I just said in another thread, I picked Wartecher BECAUSE of its versatility. I have not regretted it to this day and I probably never will.

[danny_o]

On 2007-10-16 07:44, Sekani wrote:
I just can't believe that people still have the mindset that just because a class doesn't excel in some area that it's worthless. In a six-person party every class is worthless because stuff will die no matter what you do. In a smaller party... well, I think that's already been covered.

This isn't FFXI or WoW, where your class choice actually makes some kind of game-breaking difference.




Well said!

[Pillan]

So, their main strength is they’re more versatile than any class and their main weakness is their more versatile than any class. Depending on who you are, that can be good enough or it isn’t good enough (I’m somewhere on the latter side).

But, the obvious thing that no one can argue is that they get the highest damage spam from the overpowered whip PAs since they have both the highest ATP and skill cap of anyone who can use them.

[physic]

whips hit many mobs, but they dont have high atp or damage mods. id say teh main advantage of a whip is its ability to hit a lot of mobs and inflict se fairly easily. That said, i think wartechers skills come in the weapons they can use. BTW JA isnt the god everyone thinks, its just a whole lot more fun, honestlty Hunter unless you had hax% weapons was pretty weak pre aoi. You take a lot of dmg, have to run up close to every mob, do average dmg. whilst rangers are dealing SE for 1000s of dmg without taking dmg, or smashing stuff with twins/xbows. and techers fulfill key roles even if they arent doing dmg, and when their techs are high, hell yes they are doing dmg. dam series nos etc blah blah.

[PALRAPPYS]

Something I personally think WT should get:

S rank spears
S rank saber (maybe)
Lv30 Support Tech

Dunno what you think, but I'd love WT if they were given that. Of course, I play WT now... but come AoI, all this WT I've been using is just practice for AT.

[Sinue_v2]

but we're faced with people who feel that a class has to be good at everything or its worthless.

I don't believe anybody wanted Wartecher to be good at everything. As a point of fact, I think it's fucking stupid to be giving them a bullet lvl increase when Madoogs are going to replace damned neared every single pistol in people's pallets. Bows and Xbows are more Guntecher suited weapons as well. Whips to spread status effect? Why even bring that up, when it's not a WarTecher's role to spread status effects.

I still contend that WT's high HP and place on the battlefield make them more suited for melee/support than Guntechers who are ranged and out of combat and can fire off both status effecting bullets and ranged techniques. Whatever Sonic Team had intended the roles of these classes to be initially, it's clear that their place on the battlefield has been generally defined in practice, and I think players have a right to be upset when their class get switched up.

And furthermore, nobody is asking for lvl 40 support on a WT (which would be the best). All we're asking is, at the very least, to maintain the status quo - which is vercitlity. Don't pidgeonhole a jack-of-all-trades class by giving us a boost to attack techniques which are outshined by our melee in most all cases and effectively taking away the one aspect of a WT which makes them DESIREABLE in a party. Otherwise we're likely to get booted the moment an AT comes in in order to make room for another, more potent, melee or ranged class.


In fact, I've noticed that using my lower leveled buffs sometimes causes the fT to get jealous and re-cast theirs xD

That is some grade-a bullshit right there. Thanks, basically saying that our worthless support buffs are only good for reminding the higher buff casting players to cast theirs. FY.

[stukasa]

I usually play in smaller parties so WT's versatility is really a big plus for me. I rarely found a situation I couldn't handle when I was playing WT, and I plan on switching back to WT when AoI is released (at least until I cap it again http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif). WT's weakest aspect is its ranged weapons, which (although still weak) will be getting better in the expansion. Then again, I've always had at least a part-time ranger companion so that was never a big deal for me.

About the level 20 support techs... It's been argued to death by now so I won't bother to get into it. I'd love to have level 30 support (as I said, I usually play in small parties where I'm usually the only techer), but level 20 isn't going to keep me from playing the class. WT was my first advanced class; I found it fun then and I'm sure I'll find it fun again in AoI, even without the 30 support.

[Xaeris]

On 2007-10-16 07:32, NIloklives wrote:
look at what else they are capable of, and if you still think that they need buffs to make them worthwhile, don't play the class, you wouldn't do your party much good, running around trying to make sure everyone is 15% more efficient instead of fighting anyway.



While I disagree with the thesis of the post (that wartechers are balanced), this statement right here is refined truth. I've said it in different, less overt ways over the past weeks, but to see it put so bluntly...yes.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-10-16 07:32, NIloklives wrote:

WT got a nice upgrade in AoI:
Full combos for two handed weapons (as well as increased damage and accuracy mods)This is about the only change worth mentioning, and even still, an AT will things almost as quickly.

SE 3 on their bows, the 3rd blade on a fans/cards, and increased elemental damage (and better mods again)That's useful and all, but only for a few enemies.

increased damage, duration, speed etc on attack techs as well as improved SE lvls on techsFirst of all, techs slow down as they get to higher levels, not speed up. Furthermore, wow, we can kill robots faster now. Shame they still won't be useful for much else.

the ability to use techs and melee at the same timeOk, I lied, this is the biggest advantage. Of course, AT pulls this off a lot better, since they actually have wortwhile support linked to those Madoogs.

S rank wandsWhich are totally useful...for robots.

SwordsSorry, Majarra.

ShadoogsFirst, AT does this better. Second, neither will use them much anyway, because the left hand will always have a Madoog, or rarely a card.

increased ATP and TPATP? Great and all, but as above, an AT will still melee nearly as well. TP? Great and all, but as above, only good for robots.