so,acrotechers

[majan]

hey guys have you outdps'ed a fortetecher yet?since a har/quick on an acrotecher will probably result in squashing a FT's dps,I'm interested to see how things actually pan out.

so how funny is it,gidiga on an acrotecher with a har/quick?must be hysterical.

[Shou]

plz you are making me drool .... -.-

[majan]

I really hope I am proved wrong here but I figured since it hasnt really been touched on Id bring it up to see if theres a real advantage or disadvantage to the whole thing,also to hear how funny it must look witha har/quick on an acrotecher

[Remedy]

Apparently, ATs can cast Gi-s so quick with Madoogs and Har/Quick that the second one starts casting before the first one finishes.

*refuses to start an AT versus FT war in this topic because Ryna will warn me again*

[majan]

I'll probably be the one getting warned then since its my topic,but thats pretty assinine that sega would set it up that way.Im really hoping that level 40 techs will give enough damage to set a big enough gap between fts and at's.any expansion players have experience in the matter?

[Remedy]

It doesn't even really matter if we can out-damage them, because they're far more versatile than we are (whips for broad-range Level 4 Paralyze, level 40 support, etc.). Like I said, there's no point to an FT when an AT can be had.

[razkal]

Can't wait for my Gizonde storm to arrive. I'll also have a megid/barta Madoog-cannon I wanna mess around with. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Inazuma]

FT is overall better w/ techs, so dont worry.

[majan]

On 2007-11-06 11:56, Remedy wrote:
It doesn't even really matter if we can out-damage them, because they're far more versatile than we are (whips for broad-range Level 4 Paralyze, level 40 support, etc.). Like I said, there's no point to an FT when an AT can be had.



indeed ...but versatility usually comes in exchange for power...which the at's have a lot of in the TP department. the whole thing sounds imbalanced,which is odd even for sonic team.they basically have laid it out nice and clear for us:use a fortetecher if you want flashy technics,and that is about it....thats why I made this thread to see if anyone had experience comparing the two in terms of technic max DPS(which pretty much involves a har/quick for both classes).. so unless somoene comes in here and says nah ft's have a big enough damage advantage to stay more powerful than an at...I spose that is our conclusion and that ft's are essentially obsolete except ornamental characters taht float around and dazzle us with a walking fireworks show.

[majan]

On 2007-11-06 12:03, Inazuma wrote:
FT is overall better w/ techs, so dont worry.



almost missed your response again like in my last thread lol...Ill take your word for it but can you elaborate at all?judging from your sig you have experience tooling around with both classes..any insight you can offer?

[Remedy]

On 2007-11-06 12:04, majan wrote:
I spose that is our conclusion and that ft's are essentially obsolete except ornamental characters taht float around and dazzle us with a walking fireworks show.You haven't come to that conclusion yet? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

I'm maintaining my allegiance as a FT merely because I've realized that most people on this game aren't worth sacrificing my happiness as a FT to be an AT just for them. Maybe if my friends need an AT and can't find one, I'll grab some Madoogs and whips and play the "better" class, but meh. My friends are right - I'm far happier as a Fortecher, and my tenacity in defending the class and promoting its woes is proof of that. *shrug*

[Inazuma]

i really should do a proper comparison. maybe later today i can do that. AT casts 10% faster than FT, but i know FT is more than 10% stronger. lv 40 attack techs are very nice too. bigger range/size, another 10% in elemental boost, higher SEs.

the madoog is the best weapon for the non hold techs, FT included. but when it comes to the hold techs, FT is way ahead of AT, since AT cant use the pwand.
AT has much better defensive stats than FT, but its not like FT has any problem staying alive, especially since psu ep 2 is like 10 times easier than ep 1.

[CelestialBlade]

There is the lower base TP mod and loss of Rod TP, so I think at best an AT is only going to match a fT's total DPS through their speed alone. But in addition to that, ATs also have massive amounts of versatility, so it's still going to be a very sick class. Can't wait to change over my Human fT.

[Kamiense]

fTs still have their advantage though. I'd rather do consistent 30% ice Nasuyoteri {10/10} damage than a wimpy fast casted (takes a while to get there) Noszonde on Onma and other bosses.

I'm sure acrotechers will be great, but the only reason I'll be one sometimes is to have all my techs level 40 for show.

That little bit of speed won't out damage level 40 Gidiga, with the elemental % boost, Psycho Wand (10/10), and higher tech %



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kamiense on 2007-11-06 12:22 ]</font>

[Ceresa]

Well, in a party situation, FT and AT will both be using the same wand/madoog and simple/gi/ra most likely, so the gap is narrowed somewhat, but FT will still be ahead by 10-20%. (Top end wand is 672TP for both classes, 550TP for madoog) AT speed is hardly swift enough to compete with +250TP and lvl 40 techs. Of course, this is discounting that an AT would probably equal the FT tech damage by simply switching to a good dagger, but you asked about techs so...

In solo, with every enemy fixated on you, and proper damtech use(they all have pushback now), a dedicated FT (that being, one with a Psychowand or 3) will run laps around the AT. (AT topend is still 672TP but FT can get 1040-1100TP from weapon). Damage from AT damufoie around 800-900, while an FT does around 1400-1500.

FT without Psychowand to create such a large gap is quite pitiful however...but the droprate is eased to the point that 100 reliks runs will most likely net you one board, if not two, +8-10 relic edges, and enough materials to sell/trade for the 30 diad. If you aren't willing to do that (like 15 mins per run? 10 a night over 10days...) then you shouldn't expect much performance from an underdog class, which FT very much is, by sheer virtue of not having competent skill PA access, which is king for damage currently, or the L40 supports.

As for bosses and large enemies, AT wins no contest, wand + shadoog(400-500 per shot with proper element, 3 shots every 2-3? seconds with an A-rank, or put a fire one in for lvl 3 burn against say, tengoghs)

[majan]

On 2007-11-06 12:25, Ceresa wrote:
Well, in a party situation, FT and AT will both be using the same wand/madoog and simple/gi/ra most likely, so the gap is narrowed somewhat, but FT will still be ahead by 10-20%. (Top end wand is 672TP for both classes, 550TP for madoog) AT speed is hardly swift enough to compete with +250TP and lvl 40 techs. Of course, this is discounting that an AT would probably equal the FT tech damage by simply switching to a good dagger, but you asked about techs so...

In solo, with every enemy fixated on you, and proper damtech use(they all have pushback now), a dedicated FT (that being, one with a Psychowand or 3) will run laps around the AT. (AT topend is still 672TP but FT can get 1040-1100TP from weapon). Damage from AT damufoie around 800-900, while an FT does around 1400-1500.

FT without Psychowand to create such a large gap is quite pitiful however...but the droprate is eased to the point that 100 reliks runs will most likely net you one board, if not two, +8-10 relic edges, and enough materials to sell/trade for the 30 diad. If you aren't willing to do that (like 15 mins per run? 10 a night over 10days...) then you shouldn't expect much performance from an underdog class, which FT very much is, by sheer virtue of not having competent skill PA access, which is king for damage currently, or the L40 supports.

As for bosses and large enemies, AT wins no contest, wand + shadoog(400-500 per shot with proper element, 3 shots every 2-3? seconds with an A-rank, or put a fire one in for lvl 3 burn against say, tengoghs)



agreed,that makes perfect sense,but ra- and gi- and basic types on a AT with a har/quick may even out dps a fortetecher with a pwand with dambarta and the like.a ra-type spell with fast enough cast is essentailly a long-ranged narrow-targeted dam-spell.same thing iwht a gi-type thats casted fast enough since everything has knockback now.

[Shou]

Actually that was always my opinion. FT will do the most damage if they use the sprey techniques because they dont rely on speed lik every single other tech does. So they will only out damage them with sprey techs.

Honestly the downside to the quick units are WAY mild to compare to the speed bost output. Har / Quick should say +100% casting speed and - 50% tech damage.

[majan]

On 2007-11-06 12:38, Shou wrote:
Actually that was always my opinion. FT will do the most damage if they use the sprey techniques because they dont rely on speed lik every single other tech does. So they will only out damage them with sprey techs.

Honestly the downside to the quick units are WAY mild to compare to the speed bost output. Har / Quick should say +100% casting speed and - 50% tech damage.



thats kind of the point to them being rare units...

cati/power is a heck of a atp increase without much of a downside.wait...there is no downside.same with hard/power charge if you have the amount of weapons to handle the increased PP consumption.the rare slot units are rare for a reason man lol they kick ass and they help out their designated classes quite a hell of a bit.

[Remedy]

Disappointing that Madoogs are so stupidly good. It sucks when my favorite weapon type for FTs is essentially the worst of them all if you're not spamming Damu- techs.

I, for one, have put most of my stock into Gi-s and Nosu-s. *shrug* I like front-lines casting, especially stuff that can take advantage of frequent blocking. Oh well. I'll still play the way I want to, and I'm done changing that for other people.

[Shou]

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif i cant wait to be able to juggle 3 digas in the air at once http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[majan]

On 2007-11-06 12:46, Remedy wrote:
Disappointing that Madoogs are so stupidly good. It sucks when my favorite weapon type for FTs is essentially the worst of them all if you're not spamming Damu- techs.

I, for one, have put most of my stock into Gi-s and Nosu-s. *shrug* I like front-lines casting, especially stuff that can take advantage of frequent blocking. Oh well. I'll still play the way I want to, and I'm done changing that for other people.




we share a style,but dambarta is the most useful damn tech in the game and I stand by it till the cows come home.but Im all for gi-techs and nosmegid is also extremely useful.hopefully it will get a 3rd target like noszonde in the expansion

[Remedy]

Yeah, Damubarta's up there as well for my techs, but it'll be phased out in favor of Damumegid in the expansion. I'd rather have the Infection - it'll probably vastly speed up my killing rates. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[razkal]

Can anyone confirm that both nosmegid and noszonde hit 3 targets?

I watched the videos here, but the techs were too strong for the enemies so i couldn't tell if they can hit 3:

http://pusu-jam.sakura.ne.jp/m/n_z.wmv

http://pusu-jam.sakura.ne.jp/m/n_m.wmv

[Remedy]

Those are old v1 videos, I think, razkal.

JP Wiki doesn't list Nosumegid as gaining the power to hit 3 targets. We'll see when we get it state-side, I guess.

[ankokujin]

Honestly I haven't tried a pwand yet, but a halarod, a har quick, and nosdiga is has a sick casting time. It's not a bad alternative for the Fortecher that doesn't have high enough def and element stats to take hits. The only real difference I've found between an AT and FT so far in AoI is whether you want to survive physical attacks or magic attacks respectively. I'd also suggest leveling all of your techs to 30 in AT and then going FT though because that's how you're going to notice the biggest difference, plus it will be quicker for everything except nos techniques. That and level 40 buffs, while great, don't completely outclass level 30 buffs. I think FT will just become the more nuanced of the teching classes, same as it always was.

[razkal]

I thought all the videos here covered the techs that had changed and all melee PAs. It looks like it takes place in one of the new snow stages. Not sure on when they came out though.


http://www.geocities.jp/pusu_jam/

[Weeaboolits]

Acrotecher looks fun, the reason I didn't really like playing force as much as the others was that they were too slow, the reason I dislike rods, and only used a wand.

[Sexy_Raine]

No matter what people think, when AOI hits, there will be a huge drop in FT's, there is no denying it.

[Inazuma]

nosuzonde hits 3 targets but nosumegido only hits 2

[Remedy]

On 2007-11-06 13:55, Inazuma wrote:
nosuzonde hits 3 targets but nosumegido only hits 2Good. I picked the right one to buy, then. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[majan]

On 2007-11-06 13:55, Inazuma wrote:
nosuzonde hits 3 targets but nosumegido only hits 2



damn it.

oh well.and yes indeed there will be a huge drop in ft's but this thread is to get to the bottom of how justified it is...are they to be completely outdone is what I am getting at.inazuma says in techincs FTs still hold the better overall crown and it seems we can agree on that mostly except in some areas where the advantage is a little smaller.its probably going to come down to a matter of style,but before this turns into an all out flamewar I hope we can make a little more progress.this has been a very good discussion.

[Remedy]

It has been a good discussion, indeed. A bit of my righteous FT indignation towards AT is lessened.

A bit. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[ankokujin]

On 2007-11-06 13:54, Sexy_Raine wrote:
No matter what people think, when AOI hits, there will be a huge drop in FT's, there is no denying it.



Yeah, but it doesn't make FT's useless, just more suited to party play where they have people to take hits for them. AT's are much more like a beginner class Techer because they're easy to master, and effective alone or in a group. A great choice for casts/beasts as well to work with their strengths.


On 2007-11-06 14:01, majan wrote:
...oh well.and yes indeed there will be a huge drop in ft's but this thread is to get to the bottom of how justified it is...are they to be completely outdone is what I am getting at.inazuma says in techincs FTs still hold the better overall crown and it seems we can agree on that mostly except in some areas where the advantage is a little smaller.its probably going to come down to a matter of style,but before this turns into an all out flamewar I hope we can make a little more progress.this has been a very good discussion.



Honestly the difference between AT and FT in damage output isn't that big until you get to level 31 techs and up. And even then it's not that game breaking. Same as 31+ boosts. It really is more of a play style thing than whether one completely blows the other out of the water. Especially if you have a quick unit. Or some good armor.

[Randomness]

So, how do wartechers fit into the whole teching hierarchy in AoI?

[Remedy]

Weaker nuking and stronger melee than ATs, who have weaker nuking and stronger melee than FTs. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Randomness]

So its sort of a spectrum of how much you want in melee and tech damage?

[ankokujin]

In my experience I haven't noticed Wartechers or Guntechers prefering nuking over melee, but that's the idea. I think everyone who wanted a tougher techer just went Acro.

[razkal]

Got both but my noszonde is lvl 26 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Thanks Inazuma.

[Kismet]

If you're used to, or better with, being a WT or GT, is there any benefit in going AT? Besides S-rank whips? (Because WTs will still be the strongest whip users of them all.)

[ankokujin]

On 2007-11-06 14:36, Kismet wrote:
If you're used to, or better with, being a WT or GT, is there any benefit in going AT? Besides S-rank whips? (Because WTs will still be the strongest whip users of them all.)



I'd say no, because whips aren't THAT great unless you're dealing with a large number of mobs. But I haven't really done much with a WT/GT yet.

[Lamak]

Yeah, I've been wondering how WT fits into all of this. If someone explained that would be nice. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Randomness]

Well, from what I've read, my assumption at this point is they're just like ATs with lower TP, higher ATP, and slower casting. Oh, and different S ranks.

[SolomonGrundy]

So my question is: if you take FT (with halarod), AT (with uransara or S rank madoog), and WT (with uransara) and place them according to scale of tech damage

The FT would be 100%
The AT would be..?
and the WT would be how much below that?

I'm not so concerned about support, or melee, just want to know some tech damage numbers.

And maybe some more hard numbers? If a FT, AT, and a WT both use a single gidiga (solo), what are the damage numbers? how about a single foie? a single rabarta?

[mrlion]

Umm DPS? do we even use this term in this game?

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2007-11-07 08:37, mrlion wrote:
Umm DPS? do we even use this term in this game?



DPS stand for damage per SECOND, right? I am wondering about a single use of a tech (not speed, or range, all of which factor into DPS)

[Remedy]

On 2007-11-07 08:37, mrlion wrote:
Umm DPS? do we even use this term in this game?DPS is a constant that is both easily calculated (damage dealt / time taken) and very quantitative. It's a good benchmark for comparisons.

[mrlion]

On 2007-11-07 08:40, SolomonGrundy wrote:
DPS stand for damage per SECOND, right? I am wondering about a single use of a tech (not speed, or range, all of which factor into DPS)



Oh ok...no I know what it means is just that I didn't know that term could be used in this game since our tech people aren't really full-time casters in the likes of say....a mage in WoW or a warlock. That's why I was wondering if we use the term DPS in this game