AotI: It is in my findings that the data gathered represents

[Yusaku_Kudou]

PSU Roulette: 1:02 Universe (Xbox 360)
[Purpose: To see if there is a pattern]
Total Spaces 37 [Outside], 4 [Middle], 2 [Inside]
Spaces dial moved before stopping ():

2007 November 26
B??
B32
B12
B10
B26
B14
B30
B26 [Streak 8 (Black)]
R25 [Streak 1 (Red)]
B36 [Streak 1 (Black)]
R05 (227) [Streak 1 (Red)]
B10 (227) [Streak 1 (Black)]
G00 (291) [Streak 1 (Green)]
R31 (253) [Streak 1 (Red)]
B14 (242)
B34 (242)
B18 (243) [Streak 3 (Black)]
R19 (260)
R21 (223)
R13 (251)
R19 (228)
R23 (263) [Streak 5 (Red)]
B18 (254)
B08 (249)
B18 (269) [Streak 3 (Black)]
R09 (250)
R21 (271) [Streak 2 (Red)]
B24 (224) [Streak 1 (Black)]
G00 (234) [Streak 1 (Green)]
B02 (224) [Streak 1 (Black)]
R09 (266) [Streak 1 (Red)]
B30 (243) [Streak 1 (Black)]
R27 (220)
R07 (239) [Streak 2 (Red)]
B08 (260)
B12 (228) [Streak 2 (Black)]
R25 [Streak 1 (Red)]
B10 [Streak 1 (Black)]
R27 [Streak 1 (Red)]
B26
B08
B32 [Streak 3 (Black)]
R13 [Streak 1 (Red)]
B32
_________________________________________________

I eventually quit tracking the number of spaces the dial moved as I found no real pattern between the number of spaces and the final landing position. The dial starts on a random tile.

Data taken about from 9:00PM to 10:00PM (-8GMT).

[Para]

I think its pretty random too... Sometimes I see the weirdest streaks like all black, all red, all 20s etc.

[PALRAPPYS]

Sega's lazy to make a pattern.

Randomize()

[Yusaku_Kudou]

On 2007-11-26 19:23, PALRAPPYS wrote:
Sega's lazy to make a pattern.

Randomize()



Either that, or they figured somebody like me would try to find a pattern. However, I will continue my scientific study tomorrow night at 9PM once again to see if it repeats itself.

[Teh_pozzum]

...it's impossible for a computer sequence to be 100% random it take a very large sum of numbers to find the patter *may be in the millions* but it will repeat at some point. It basically based on how much memory sega was willing to give to the roulette wheel alone. Someone who made the coding would know the pattern... Or some super genius that has way too much time may find it out... But that is about it...

[Randomness]

You forgot some (real) hacker who cared enough about the game to hack the servers to get the RNG's algorithm.

With that, you'd be able to generate the pattern, and after enough numbers, you'd know the seed, and be able to predict exactly where it would land.

Of course, the risk in actually hacking a major company versus the reward... I doubt anyone's going to do this anytime soon.

[Yusaku_Kudou]

Have you programmed before, pozzum? I can guarantee you that randomizing is infinitely easier to program than any pattern. I've been programming since 2000 and I say this with the utmost confidence.

[Randomness]

I *think* hes talking about how a random number generator does eventually repeat itself, because sooner or later it will have the same seed again. Same seed=same result, and of course, it begins to repeat. Though, as he said, it can take millions of randomizations for the loop to repeat.

[Yusaku_Kudou]

Do you have any links? I'd like to read about this, otherwise I'm inclined to believe that a computer will just pick any number 1-100 ongoing without any repeat. I don't see why it would go back to an original first pick.

[Wallin]

To be fair, a test of 37 really isn't all that accurate, it's possible it takes 100 or 200 spins for example before the color pattern repeats itself. If that's really the case though, then forget that, just enjoy the game!

I've recorded a little longer data than that, and also found no pattern. Anyone who says they did find one always screws up, and then they try to brush it off like it was a fluke, until it happens 5 more times in the next 7 spins and then they're like, "Oh, guess I have to do more research." * roll eyes *

I used to think that it would never land on a color more than X times, and surprisingly it worked on the first day - then after that, color just screwed me up any way it could. Those streaks of 4-8 (supposedly someone saw a streak of 9 even) just totally blow any data right out of the water. You'd have just as much luck finding a pattern in the slot machines.

[Wallin]

On 2007-11-26 19:46, Yusaku_Kudou wrote:
Do you have any links? I'd like to read about this, otherwise I'm inclined to believe that a computer will just pick any number 1-100 ongoing without any repeat. I don't see why it would go back to an original first pick.



I also learned this when I was in school, so I can vouch for this matter - computers do not generate numbers completely randomly, I think they may have found a better way to do that these days though.

Just do a google search for computer random number generation. Here's the Wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generator

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Wallin on 2007-11-26 20:02 ]</font>

[Raine_Loire]

In FFXI, if you type /random you get a random number... are you saying it's a pattern? I can't imagine that it is easier to program some long, indiscernible pattern than it is to program something to just pick a number at random. When I was 8 years old, I was learning Basic, and one of the first things you learn is a random number generator...

[Teh_pozzum]

What we are trying to say is that a random number generator in it's essence is not a random number generator but just an extremely long sequence of numbers meant to appear as random... I watched this show about a man that used to code slot machines they all use the same generator and he was able to predict the spins after about 4-5 spins. It's nearly impossible it's not impossible to find out the sequence. Also I don't happen to code I just know about this one thing basically. XD

[Rizen]

I can vouch for this as well. Having a couple of years in computer knowledge and going on 4 years of computer programming, I have experienced and read about making "random" on a computer. Its a bit hard to explain, but my teacher told us in simple terms, computers use "pseudo" random code to generate outcomes.

[Wallin]

On 2007-11-26 20:05, Raine_Loire wrote:
In FFXI, if you type /random you get a random number... are you saying it's a pattern? I can't imagine that it is easier to program some long, indiscernible pattern than it is to program something to just pick a number at random. When I was 8 years old, I was learning Basic, and one of the first things you learn is a random number generator...



To everyone else, ignore this message if you don't care about random numbers in programming. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

It's not necessarily that FFXI uses the following, but again, this is from the Wikipedia article:

"Pseudo-random number generators (PRNGs) are algorithms that can automatically create long runs (for example, millions of numbers long) with good random properties but eventually the sequence repeats exactly (or the memory usage grows without bound)."

"Some applications which appear at first sight to be suitable for randomization are in fact not quite so simple. For instance, a system that 'randomly' selects music tracks for a background music system must only appear to be random; a true random system would have no restriction on the same item appearing two or three times in succession."

This is the description of "true" vs. "pseudo-random numbers"

"There are two principal methods used to generate random numbers. One measures some physical phenomenon that is expected to be random and then compensates for possible biases in the measurement process. The other uses computational algorithms that produce long sequences of apparently random results, which are in fact completely determined by a shorter initial value, known as a seed or key. The latter type are often called pseudorandom number generators."

[jcm5]

that link to wikipedia hurt my brain im gonna go lie down for a bit to think about what i read

[jcm5]

that wikipedia link hurt my brain im gonna go lie down for a bit to think of what i read

[Nuclearranger]

You guys do know.... THE GAME RECORDS THEM FOR YOU...



Edited for only end results

13:09:51 20009772 5551 ROULETTE 32 Stop

13:11:21 20009772 5552 ROULETTE 32 Stop

13:12:51 20009772 5553 ROULETTE 25 Stop


13:14:21 20009772 5554 ROULETTE 36 Stop

13:15:51 20009772 5555 ROULETTE 8 Stop

13:17:21 20009772 5556 ROULETTE 32 Stop

13:18:51 20009772 5557 ROULETTE 14 Stop

13:20:21 20009772 5558 ROULETTE 35 Stop


13:21:51 20009772 5559 ROULETTE 20 Stop


13:23:21 20009772 5560 ROULETTE 31 Stop


13:24:51 20009772 5561 ROULETTE 22 Stop



13:26:21 20009772 5562 ROULETTE 1 Stop


13:27:51 20009772 5563 ROULETTE 5 Stop


13:29:21 20009772 5564 ROULETTE 36 Stop


13:30:51 20009772 5565 ROULETTE 18 Stop

13:32:21 20009772 5566 ROULETTE 25 Stop


13:33:51 20009772 5567 ROULETTE 35 Stop

13:35:21 20009772 5568 ROULETTE 17 Stop


13:36:51 20009772 5569 ROULETTE 35 Stop


13:38:21 20009772 5570 ROULETTE 27 Stop


13:39:51 20009772 5571 ROULETTE 24 Stop


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13:42:51 20009772 5573 ROULETTE 30 Stop


13:44:21 20009772 5574 ROULETTE 14 Stop


13:45:51 20009772 5575 ROULETTE 19 Stop

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13:48:51 20009772 5577 ROULETTE 34 Stop

13:50:21 20009772 5578 ROULETTE 1 Stop
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13:53:21 20009772 5580 ROULETTE 11 Stop

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14:23:21 20009772 5600 ROULETTE 26 Stop

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14:39:51 20009772 5611 ROULETTE 1 Stop

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14:44:21 20009772 5614 ROULETTE 34 Stop

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14:51:51 20009772 5619 ROULETTE 28 Stop

14:53:21 20009772 5620 ROULETTE 27 Stop

14:53:34 20009772 5621 ROULETTE 37 Bet(200)

14:54:51 20009772 5621 ROULETTE 5 Stop

14:56:21 20009772 5622 ROULETTE 35 Stop

14:57:51 20009772 5623 ROULETTE 5 Stop

5624 ROULETTE 22 Stop

15:00:51 20009772 5625 ROULETTE 24 Stop

15:02:21 20009772 5626 ROULETTE 9 Stop

15:03:51 20009772 5627 ROULETTE 30 Stop

15:05:21 20009772 5628 ROULETTE 15 Stop

15:06:51 20009772 5629 ROULETTE 25 Stop

15:08:21 20009772 5630 ROULETTE 2 Stop

15:09:51 20009772 5631 ROULETTE 34 Stop

15:11:21 20009772 5632 ROULETTE 15 Stop

15:12:51 20009772 5633 ROULETTE 26 Stop

15:14:21 20009772 5634 ROULETTE 27 Stop

15:15:51 20009772 5635 ROULETTE 18 Stop

15:17:21 20009772 5636 ROULETTE 24 Stop

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15:23:21 20009772 5640 ROULETTE 35 Stop

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NuclearRanger on 2007-11-26 20:29 ]</font>

[Wallin]

Holy cow jcm, I know there was a forum hiccup, but the number of times you posted hurts my brain! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Edit: Oh, aren't we so smart to check the chat logs??? Well, I've got Wikipedia number articles! * runs away crying * LOL, nope, had no idea. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Wallin on 2007-11-26 20:18 ]</font>

[Teh_pozzum]

NuclearRanger >.> what in the world does that mean and where in the world did you find it?

[jcm5]

lmao sorry *checks forum log*

[Nuclearranger]

Allright I edited it for you guys for only the results

[Nuclearranger]

Everything you do in this game is recorded basicaly lol

[Wallin]

On 2007-11-26 20:31, NuclearRanger wrote:
Everything you do in this game is recorded basicaly lol



"Big Brother is watching you." http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Nuclearranger]

lol... I severly doubt there is an order that anyone can track it would take millions or billions of end results and we might still not get it.

[BlueFire2k5]

On 2007-11-26 20:05, Raine_Loire wrote:
In FFXI, if you type /random you get a random number... are you saying it's a pattern? I can't imagine that it is easier to program some long, indiscernible pattern than it is to program something to just pick a number at random. When I was 8 years old, I was learning Basic, and one of the first things you learn is a random number generator...



I've been programming and studying computer systems for much of my life now. I've always been interested in theories such as (P)RNGs, entropy, and security related issues. Therefore, I can tell you with certainty, that a computer, by itself without taking readings from any external source, cannot be truly random. Computers are governed by math, algorithms, and predictability. Everything that is done on a computer has to be programmed, so it all has an algorithm behind it. It is possible for computers to generate a large pool of entropy (entropy is essentially a measure of randomness), which allows for an algorithm to appear random. However, it is never truly random.

(As a side note, this post may be outdated in a few years, because a theory/hardware design known as Trusted Computing may take off. In the Trusted Computing design, a chip known as the Trusted Platform Module contains a true random number generator, which I assume is based off of some measurable, physically random effect taking place inside the chip.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BlueFire2k5 on 2007-11-26 21:10 ]</font>

[Teh_pozzum]

I'm guessing if they used a common program to generate the random number sequence then you'd only need a couple thousand numbers... That is of course if the program itself has been cracked or shown the code of... Which I think to be likely for most random number generators... Possibly I really have no idea... I'm just saying you can look around and someone may have it cracked in like a month or 2... if they used a common generator... (as in it's been used in some older game or is accessible to the public)

Please tell me if this is BS, because this is all based on my limited understanding of random number generators and my odd ideas of what the internet is...

[BlueFire2k5]

On 2007-11-26 20:57, Teh_pozzum wrote:
I'm guessing if they used a common program to generate the random number sequence then you'd only need a couple thousand numbers... That is of course if the program itself has been cracked or shown the code of... Which I think to be likely for most random number generators... Possibly I really have no idea... I'm just saying you can look around and someone may have it cracked in like a month or 2... if they used a common generator... (as in it's been used in some older game or is accessible to the public)

Please tell me if this is BS, because this is all based on my limited understanding of random number generators and my odd ideas of what the internet is...



My personal guess is that they are using something similar to /dev/urandom (Unix file that returns numbers) to seed their program. /dev/urandom essentially creates a pool of environmental "noise" collected from hardware device drivers. This creates a very high level of entropy, and would be almost impossible for an attacker to break. Or, of course, knowing Sega they could just be using a simple random function within any computer programming language that has very little entropy (since this really isn't a mission critical randomized system anyway).

[Para]

Actually I retract my previous statement... I think sometimes the roulette intentionally goes against you randomly.

[R2R_Crysaki]

sometimes i think the roulette just tries to get the most to lose

[Eliash]

I'll admit I didn't read the whole post but to clear some things up:

Yes, computers cannot generate 'Random' numbers. All numbers that are 'Random' are the result of a SEED number in a formula that gives off seemingly random numbers, but in the end it all going according to the formula. In order to get around this some programs take numbers that change, for instance Seconds or Milliseconds to be used as the seed. This allows for a far random RNG than just a single number as the seed.

If I'm mistaken on any of these things, I'm sorry. But this is how I understand it to work as I learned it in my programming class.

[Yusaku_Kudou]

Ah, I see. That makes sense. Then I'm going to be in the casino every time after maintenance to see what the numbers are like.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Yusaku_Kudou on 2007-11-26 21:41 ]</font>

[R2R_Crysaki]

hope u make progress, it's just that this whole gambling your way to prizes u want is disappointing at most times

[Raine_Loire]

On 2007-11-26 21:10, Para wrote:
Actually I retract my previous statement... I think sometimes the roulette intentionally goes against you randomly.



I can get behind this theory, after losing ALL my coins recently. Now I'm afraid to bet http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[physic]

basically the concept of random doesnt not really occur to a computer, it can only follow instructions, so they try to create equations that have randomish results to generate a "random" number, the varying level of complexity of "random" is a big thing, essentially creating a good randomizer is what crytograhy is all about, and its not too easy to do, of course you can add in variables that may truely be random, like teh precice voltage, or number of players in a universe or a few of those at once to help generate a better randomizer. annnyhow aside for mathemticians, or brute forcing the equations who knows if they ll figure out the pattern, probably not.

[Turbobrain]

On 2007-11-26 19:35, Teh_pozzum wrote:
...it's impossible for a computer sequence to be 100% random it take a very large sum of numbers to find the patter *may be in the millions* but it will repeat at some point. It basically based on how much memory sega was willing to give to the roulette wheel alone. Someone who made the coding would know the pattern... Or some super genius that has way too much time may find it out... But that is about it...



QFT. When I used to code MC68000, one of the hardest things was to make a standalone random number generator.... maybe take a while but there will be repition somewhere.

However if you were to use a random offset... and even then it would have to be something REAL random like the lottery numbers then it gets harder.

Even RL PRO gamblers have devolped RNG's that can HELP predict the next numbers.

I don't think Sega would have pushed the boat out all that much. They seem VERY fond of patterns- in fact this game LETS 'play' with its own RNG engine '/r' but I'll be fecked if I can plot it out to find a pattern, all I know is 130 runs, 30 of those yesterday with 3 luck and no Pyscho Wand[B ] no Svaltus, no Huge cutter, nothing- only those feckin 9* claw B's. If I was a RL pro gambler I would say I'm due. Then I fail 3 S boards at 75% one after the other.... random numbers? PSU? I dont think so!

[zandra117]

There is a pattern, I use it every time I play roulette and I have taught it to others as well. The spinning wheel works in sequences of 3 spins for the colors, red or black, and 5 spins for the sections, orange, blue, or yellow. This strategy has been 80% accurate when used in the more populated universes.

Color:
1st spin will try to make the majority of players betting or three or less players win.
2nd spin will try to work against the majority.
3rd spin will try to make the minority of players or no one win.
*repeats*

If the spinner lands on zero during the first or third spin it will repeat the spin then continue.

Sections:
1st spin will try to make the majority of players betting or three or less players win.
2nd spin will try to work against the majority.
3rd spin will try to make the minority of players or no one win.
4th spin appears to be completely random.
5th spin appears to be completely random.
*repeats*

If the spinner lands on zero during the first or third spin it will repeat the spin then continue.
The spinner seems to only have the chance to land on zero if it has the chance to land in the orange or blue section.


Every once in a while this strategy will become desynchronised with the spinner, if this happens take a break from betting, watch the spinner and resynchronise with the pattern.

The best time to place your bet using this strategy is after the 20 second warning.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zandra117 on 2007-11-27 05:38 ]</font>

[CelestialBlade]

Nothing can truly be random as long as something has to determine what "random" is. Which for computers, is all the time.

No matter how many patterns we think we see in roulette, it really is random. A sample size of 30 or 2 million won't change that. If there were some trick to it, Vegas wouldn't have the damn things. Wish people would realize that it's all luck.

Want a guaranteed way to not lose your coins at gambling? Don't.

[Reipard]

I think it's as simple as a random number generator using the server time as its seed.

[Rashiid]

Great, now we are going to know when it is going to land on what.....where's the fun in that now....

[CelestialBlade]

I really hope Sega knows about all these attempts to figure out roulette and is sitting there laughing at them. The mental image I'm getting in my head is a bunch of math geeks invading Vegas. This is coming from an engineering student.

[tirith]

i thouht math geeks weren't allowed in vegas <card counters>

[Teh_pozzum]

On 2007-11-27 05:39, Typheros wrote:
Nothing can truly be random as long as something has to determine what "random" is. Which for computers, is all the time.

No matter how many patterns we think we see in roulette, it really is random. A sample size of 30 or 2 million won't change that. If there were some trick to it, Vegas wouldn't have the damn things. Wish people would realize that it's all luck.

Want a guaranteed way to not lose your coins at gambling? Don't.



2 little points I have to make about this...

1. you cannot compare a real roulette table to a digital roulette table. real roulette tables will commonly have some discrepancies and they will be geared towards some numbers to an insanely small percent. This digital roulette wheel has a definite pattern somewhere in the coding...

2. Vegas can have slot machines. (and any other computer based gambling game) Mainly because they have the ability to kick out anyone they want. I.E. people who have figured out the number generators in these machines. There are people that are blacklisted in Vegas and cannot gamble anywhere.

[DraginHikari]

I'm not really good at math, but it seems nearly random enough for people to lose on it constantly XD

[Turbobrain]

Well heres to good old LUCK. No fancy algorythms, formulas, theorys.... just stuck in the coins and....

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4101/psu20071127193121005qu1.png (http://imageshack.us)

When I get my Silver tommorow, looks like I will be able to afford the Chainsawd, my little friend from PSO.

GOOD LUCK ppl!

[CelestialBlade]

Hot damn. Congrats!

[Kylie]

On 2007-11-26 19:23, PALRAPPYS wrote:
Sega's lazy to make a pattern.

Randomize()


That's what I say. It does seem rigged at times, but for what? It's not like they have anything to gain out of us losing our daily virtual coin.

[RemiusTA]

On 2007-11-26 19:23, PALRAPPYS wrote:
Sega's lazy to make a pattern.

Randomize()



Or they just arent stupid.

[physic]

the sega is too lazy to make a pattern, problem with that is it actually requires more work to make not a pattern. anyhow for all intents and purposes for me, its random or close to it.

[Carlo210]

Well, we've had a breach on the 360 servers just now. Someone hit 4 huge jackpots in a row on roulette.

[pikachief]

On 2007-11-27 19:45, Carlo210 wrote:
Well, we've had a breach on the 360 servers just now. Someone hit 4 huge jackpots in a row on roulette.



my friend says he knows the pattern.... him having everything in the casino could probably prove it XD

he spent over 3 hours writing numbers i think.... maybe more....

[Carlo210]

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif
Whassisname? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[ThEoRy]

No way! You mean a game of roulette is based entirely on chance?! How ridiculous is that?!

[Wallin]

Are the 360 servers different from PC/PS2 then? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif I see no pattern, it doesn't really explain how there can be strings of 15 of one color either.

[Carlo210]

Eh? We're saying there's a pattern, albeit a very long one. Finding what it is isn't hacking, cheating, or anything. It's legit as we're not breaking any kind of rule.

[HalfDarShadow]

yea......um......cant we all just enjoy the game like me and turbobrain....



P.S. i think i was there when turbobrain(azatoth) got the jackpot. i remember that name popping up on the anouncement thingy^^

[pikachief]

On 2007-11-27 19:57, Carlo210 wrote:
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif
Whassisname? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



misery

he doesnt even go to the casino anymore >.>

[Yusaku_Kudou]

On 2007-11-27 05:31, zandra117 wrote:
There is a pattern, I use it every time I play roulette and I have taught it to others as well. The spinning wheel works in sequences of 3 spins for the colors, red or black, and 5 spins for the sections, orange, blue, or yellow. This strategy has been 80% accurate when used in the more populated universes.

Color:
1st spin will try to make the majority of players betting or three or less players win.
2nd spin will try to work against the majority.
3rd spin will try to make the minority of players or no one win.
*repeats*

If the spinner lands on zero during the first or third spin it will repeat the spin then continue.

Sections:
1st spin will try to make the majority of players betting or three or less players win.
2nd spin will try to work against the majority.
3rd spin will try to make the minority of players or no one win.
4th spin appears to be completely random.
5th spin appears to be completely random.
*repeats*

If the spinner lands on zero during the first or third spin it will repeat the spin then continue.
The spinner seems to only have the chance to land on zero if it has the chance to land in the orange or blue section.


Every once in a while this strategy will become desynchronised with the spinner, if this happens take a break from betting, watch the spinner and resynchronise with the pattern.

The best time to place your bet using this strategy is after the 20 second warning.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zandra117 on 2007-11-27 05:38 ]</font>


So basically do it in a desolate casino by oneself and just use the majority spin each time. Place it all on 0 and have a ball. Interesting.

[Syanaide]

Red 11 THREE times in a row on Universe 1 Xbox360 (9:54 PM)