What was the point of the armor % nerf?

[str898mustang]

What was the point of nerfing armors?

[JAFO22000]

The point was to make lower percentage armor more useful....really, it was to shore the large gap between a 50% armor and a 20% of the same armor.

[_Vyser_]

I thought the rates went up?

[majan]

also, the point they were trying to make with changing the equation for all things int he game not just armors,they want there to be a point to higher ranked items. DFP of the armor matters more,and ATP of a weapon matters more.they realized that it doesnt make any sense running around with a 44% 3* single dagger diong the same if not more damage than an 8* one with 10-18%. the old multiplier took all things, including your own base ATP into the elemental equation which is why this was possible.now,it seems they reworked the equation into not factoring in your own base ATP and factoring the element % on only the weapon itself.so now higher ranked weapons,even at lower %'s,are quite useful and have a distinct advantage over the lower ranked versions of it.

it was kinda stupid but Im going to miss running aroudn with my 44% dark stinger with 6 grinds.

[Mystil]

On 2007-11-27 08:37, JAFO22000 wrote:
The point was to make lower percentage armor more useful....really, it was to shore the large gap between a 50% armor and a 20% of the same armor.


They aren't more useful. They become less useful. Monsters hit harder and techs do more damage. You basically need higher percent armor than every before to compensate.

[tailz]

On 2007-11-27 10:22, Mystil wrote:

On 2007-11-27 08:37, JAFO22000 wrote:
The point was to make lower percentage armor more useful....really, it was to shore the large gap between a 50% armor and a 20% of the same armor.


They aren't more useful. They become less useful. Monsters hit harder and techs do more damage. You basically need higher percent armor than every before to compensate.




no.

actually, he was exactly right

"Although elements will no longer be as powerful on their own, adjustments to character stats mean that 50% weapons will perform almost the same after this change. On the whole characters will be offensively more powerful on their own, and lower % weapons and elementally neutral weapons will perform better than before."



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tailz on 2007-11-27 11:10 ]</font>

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-11-27 10:22, Mystil wrote:

On 2007-11-27 08:37, JAFO22000 wrote:
The point was to make lower percentage armor more useful....really, it was to shore the large gap between a 50% armor and a 20% of the same armor.


They aren't more useful. They become less useful. Monsters hit harder and techs do more damage. You basically need higher percent armor than every before to compensate.




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[Mystil]

tailz wrote:
no.

actually, he was exactly right

"Although elements will no longer be as powerful on their own, adjustments to character stats mean that 50% weapons will perform almost the same after this change. On the whole characters will be offensively more powerful on their own, and lower % weapons and elementally neutral weapons will perform better than before."


OK. My yamata-senba 20% ice is taking more damage from barta than it did before the update. Omna - EP S2 takes a chunk out of my HP(Hardline 31% fire) when he lifts off the ground, as opposed to what it was before the update. Crimsonline has the highest mentality rating in the game, but I don't have an ice one so I can't test it.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mystil on 2007-11-27 11:27 ]</font>

[Pillan]

On 2007-11-27 10:22, Mystil wrote:
They aren't more useful. They become less useful. Monsters hit harder and techs do more damage. You basically need higher percent armor than every before to compensate.


Actually, even 50% armors aren't as effective as they used to be. The armor percentages were a straight nerf because Sonic Team felt the game was too easy if every human and Newman Fortetecher could reduce Deljaban Megid damage to zero and every Fortefighter took no damage from a Kog Nadd's spikes. I think this may more have been due to an enemy attack element percent nerf than the armor percent nerf (I take more damage from a Kog Nadd's spikes with light armor than I used to with dark armor now...).

The base stat changes only improved output. You recieve more damage with armor, but the gap between 10 and 50% was reduced.

But I'd argue the point is simple balancing: if you deal a ton more damage, killing enemies a lot faster, what threat is an enemy dealing as much damage as it used to? If you dish out more, you should recieve more as well.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-11-27 11:35 ]</font>

[JAFO22000]

On 2007-11-27 11:26, Mystil wrote:

tailz wrote:
no.

actually, he was exactly right

"Although elements will no longer be as powerful on their own, adjustments to character stats mean that 50% weapons will perform almost the same after this change. On the whole characters will be offensively more powerful on their own, and lower % weapons and elementally neutral weapons will perform better than before."


OK. My yamata-senba 20% ice is taking more damage from barta than it did before the update. Omna - EP S2 takes a chunk out of my HP(Hardline 31% fire) when he lifts off the ground, as opposed to what it was before the update. Crimsonline has the highest mentality rating in the game, but I don't have an ice one so I can't test it.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mystil on 2007-11-27 11:27 ]</font>


Are you sure it's your armor causing the increase in damage? Did you change classes? Did your class receive an adjustment (I don't know if any classes did or not...)? Did the enemies in this area receive an adjustment to their damage? Could be any number of reasons.

[Golto]

I did tests before/after the patch that changed armor element %. I did see an increase in dmg I recieved when wearing 50% armor after the patch. lvl 100+ navals did 50 more dmg a hit and those are the lower atp monsters too. So the high atp + sword icon monsters can really hurt even with 50% armor now.

[panzer_unit]

I notice the extra damage quite a bit too. If it doesn't outwiegh the enormous extra damage that fighters do with higher weapon %'s and Just Attack, it sure comes close. Thankfully I've got guns for when I want to avoid damage.

I'm so glad I wasted my money on things other than high-% armor.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-11-27 13:32 ]</font>

[RemiusTA]

They wanted to give a reason to actually have higher statted armor.

Same with the weapons. There is no godly reason why any A-Rank weapon should be able to outdamage, outclass, or outperform an S-rank.

Although, the armor nerf could have also been to make the game a tad harder. Our characters are starting to get reaaallly powerful.

[Reipard]

The nice thing about the old system was that you could use those neat C-ranks like the Del Jagnus without being gimped. You sort of still can do that now, but the damage difference is much more apparent now.

I think the overall change was for the better ultimately, though.

[Pillan]

The goal wasn't to make A rank armors and weapons any less powerful. A 50% is still stronger than a 49% in the long run and that's still true post-nerf. And it's definitely still stronger than an S rank that's 10% lower in ATP. The only difference is how long the long run is. Similarly, a 50% armor is still better than a 10% one, but the difference isn’t that high since most of the damage decrease is based on enemy attack element rather than your DFP.

The only real changes are that weapon choice and rank are almost completely arbitrary since the base stats outweigh the weapon stats so much. The only exceptions are swords and axes, which still add enough ATP for rank to be a significant factor.

[physic]

well weapon choice is effected a lot by what pa s are available and what your playstyle is. you cant dmg mobs the same amount or way with a sword than you do with knuckles. also, for FF the weapon value isnt so much, but for PT AF FG etc the weapon value has more an effect. 200 atp with a twind dagger or 500 with a 1hand sword matters.

as far as armor, they made it so you have to take more dmg, thats was thier plan, up our offense, decrease are defence, you fight monsters for less time, but they do more dmg. and as people said the 50% armor was too great a boon, a regular person got beat down for the long time it took to kill a mob, and the rich guy got hit for 30. thats too big a difference. shouldnt have been very many situations where a force can ta

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: physic on 2007-11-27 14:45 ]</font>

[Aviendha]

On 2007-11-27 14:28, Pillan wrote:
The goal wasn't to make A rank armors and weapons any less powerful. A 50% is still stronger than a 49% in the long run and that's still true post-nerf. And it's definitely still stronger than an S rank that's 10% lower in ATP. The only difference is how long the long run is. Similarly, a 50% armor is still better than a 10% one, but the difference isn’t that high since most of the damage decrease is based on enemy attack element rather than your DFP.

The only real changes are that weapon choice and rank are almost completely arbitrary since the base stats outweigh the weapon stats so much. The only exceptions are swords and axes, which still add enough ATP for rank to be a significant factor.


S-ranks (of anything but Axe, Spear, Sword, maybe Saber and Claw) are a joke. Unless you like the way it looks, its not worth the price. Increased character ATP made all the Twin weapons have laughable differences in ranks. Yamata-misakis will be pointless when we finally get them, because even with synth % increase you're unlikely to make one that can exceed the damage of the easy-to-grind store bought Mijin-misaki. This also made Tenora weapons a lot less useful Yohmei Spears and Axes have considerably more PP for an small price in ATP.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I actually find the line shield percent nerf rather funny, because the percent does next to nothing now.

I take less damage from fire enemies while wearing a 14% ice Yamata-senba than wearing my NPC Hardline.

[physic]

uhhhh yohmei weaps have a fairly huge drop off in atp usually, and ranks are usually about ata, not that any one but gt can use srank twins anyhow. buuut at the endof the day stuff will die fast regardless so i guess its not that important

[Aviendha]

On 2007-11-27 15:15, physic wrote:
uhhhh yohmei weaps have a fairly huge drop off in atp usually, and ranks are usually about ata, not that any one but gt can use srank twins anyhow. buuut at the endof the day stuff will die fast regardless so i guess its not that important


I meant Twin Saber, Twin Claw, Twin Dagger, just too lazy to type it all out. And yes, Yohmei weapons have less ATP, which makes almost no difference given very high character ATP. ATA is the least important stat ever, on any weapon.
10* Axes - 102 ATP for 200+ PP? Yes, please.
10* Spear - 80 ATP for 180+ PP Easy decision