Slicers... [Archive] - PSO-World.com

Kimil

Dec 2, 2007, 01:30 AM

On 2007-12-01 21:40, Remedy wrote:
We already have the nerf. The nerf was 80% reduction in the ATP mod of the first part of the PA and a decrease in the ATA and PP of A-rank Slicers.

They're still ridiculously broken, though.

That was th Beta to Aoti nerf... not the one I'm talking about =/ (I think)

And if this is all they are nerfing them to... thats really dumb.
Why?
The one drawback to melee damage is being close up makes you vulnerable to attacks. Rangers do less damage because they have the luxury of not being immediately in the line of fire (in mixed parties).

Slicers are broken in the way that they do ridiculous damage and ALSO keep the user out of the range of counter attacks (unlike most other melee weapons). This is fucking stupid. As A wartecher, I sacrifice DPS for survivability... So slicers really piss me off.

Infact... Acrofighters in general piss me off, great defencive stats and great DPS... Sega, you suck at balancing classes... I mean...

Fortechers are now outdun by a hybrid techer (AT) and unless you are using Slicers, you are more or less useless now melee wise. PLus Rifles are now useless too. Sega, you suck

[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-12-01 22:38 ]

Aviendha

Dec 2, 2007, 01:37 AM

On 2007-12-01 21:41, YUKI_N wrote:
The US servers received the nerf already. If you play on them, you've never used a slicer pre nerf

The nerf was a 80% ATP drop, an accuracy drop, and a PP increase. And they're STILL stupidly broken strong

The nerf is a joke. As Rem mentioned, only the first part got a reduction in the ATP mod. Chikki went from a 360% mod to a 280% at lv 40, which seems significant...until you realize the second part (which does 2 hits instead of 1) stayed at a 400% mod. That means overall damage was reduced by less than 7%. If someone was doing 20K per combo on a mob pre-nerf, they'd do 18.6K post-nerf. The PP regen nerf and Chikki PP usage increase don't seem to bad, since I don't have PP problems and I never used it pre-nerf. The ACC decrease is more of a problem than the ATP decrease, but still doesn't really cut into your hit rate too bad on a human AF/FI, I dunno about FF, but they do such ridiculous damage w/ Chikki anyway it still probably doesn't matter.

Chikki won't be as bad once we get monsters with higher HP.

Shiro_Ryuu

Dec 2, 2007, 02:28 AM

Actually, there are some situations where using a Slicer may be a good way to get yourself killed, such as Vandas and Olgomons who fight from afar, but their melee is a total joke. As an Acrofighter, I'd much rather use a Saber or Dagger in such situations, so yeah, Slicers are not the only thing I ever use. I love Acrofighter, but I only really have one slicer in my pallete.

Remedy

Dec 2, 2007, 02:32 AM

On 2007-12-01 22:12, darkante wrote:
80 % reduction?!!
Wtf!
So if people do 1500 with it now?
They do otherwise 7-8000 with it before nerf on first part? XD XD XD80% reduction in the modifier. It was 360% at level 40 before, but is 280% now. The second part is still 400%, though, and AFs have enough ATA that I've noticed hardly any 0s coming from them.

Slicers are still hideously broken, but it's not PSO V1 Spread Needle broken. It's more like 50% Hit Charge Vulcans on a HUcast broken.

Mystil

Dec 2, 2007, 03:21 AM

I knew shit was going to hit the fan when they have FF's access to slicers. 1 nerf I'd backup, is taking it away from us.

Gen2000

Dec 2, 2007, 03:25 AM

I destroy Vandas and Olgomons quite fine with my Slicer + Srank laser shadoog, they can't do shit but constantly flinch and die.

Slicers can never be nerfed without being made completely useless as say.... the current Renkai, the whole concept of them is broken. They're long range piercing melee based damage weapons in a game dominated by melee damage.

Reipard

Dec 2, 2007, 03:31 AM

I think the PA could be made acceptable if the PA were changed around a bit.

Make it function like a sawed off shotgun in that it fans out. The huge numbarz damage (The 2-4k) is done at close range and the farther out it fans, the more widespread the damage is, but the less severe (I'm talking from 2-3k down to 900 at Shotgun Range then to 400 at Rifle Range)

Or just take Just Attack away from Slicers altogether and actually treat them like a ranged weapon http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

Alisha

Dec 2, 2007, 04:06 AM

i think one of the things that makes slicers stupidly broken in my experience is the stupidly huge window to just attack with them. seriously if you cant ja the entire normal combo into the pa you suck horribly at timing.

Hank

Dec 2, 2007, 05:01 AM

Damage is fine but just make it so you can't shoot through walls and kill the range a bit.

Weeaboolits

Dec 2, 2007, 05:10 AM

I like them, mainly because they were my favorite weapon in PSO, they are pretty powerful, though.

Kimil

Dec 2, 2007, 07:52 AM

Slicers themselves aren't bad... its the current PA.
If you look at the Ult Slicer PA, it apparently sucks in comparison to the current one... which is a stupid concept

Remedy

Dec 2, 2007, 08:07 AM

Yeah, but a melee weapon is what without their PAs? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif There wouldn't be this whole "techers suck and melee is supreme" thing if it weren't for PAs. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Kimil

Dec 2, 2007, 03:55 PM

On 2007-12-02 05:07, Remedy wrote:
Yeah, but a melee weapon is what without their PAs? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif There wouldn't be this whole "techers suck and melee is supreme" thing if it weren't for PAs. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Well none are as damn strong as the Slicer PA =/

Zorafim

Dec 2, 2007, 04:28 PM

And yet, I still don't use slicers due to the fact that none of the slicer PAs look nearly as good as the base attack.

Chaobo99

Dec 2, 2007, 04:38 PM

What is this rod boost all of you speak of -.-;;;? (sorry for the nooby question http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif;)

HFlowen

Dec 2, 2007, 04:53 PM

They need to change it's range. It goes farther than a rifle and about twice the width of a laser shot. (The first PA that is)

Starrz

Dec 2, 2007, 05:00 PM

On 2007-12-02 04:52, Kimil wrote:
Slicers themselves aren't bad... its the current PA.
If you look at the Ult Slicer PA, it apparently sucks in comparison to the current one... which is a stupid concept

It's not a stupid concept when you realize that VIIF PAs are not ultimate

Kimil

Dec 2, 2007, 05:05 PM

On 2007-12-02 14:00, Starrz wrote:

On 2007-12-02 04:52, Kimil wrote:
Slicers themselves aren't bad... its the current PA.
If you look at the Ult Slicer PA, it apparently sucks in comparison to the current one... which is a stupid concept

It's not a stupid concept when you realize that VIIF PAs are not ultimate

They are harder to get right? And on Average these Frag-Bought-PAs, or Ultimate PAs Do more damage or are more useful than the meseta-bought ones.

Ex: Tornado Dance, Nosudiga, Yo-Yo Daggers, Gravity Break, The Axe-ult, Killer Shot, Giresta.

It is a stupid concept that the harder to get ultimate Slicer PA is less useful than the easier to get Meseta-bought one. Putting more effort into getting something that is useless... Dumb

On 2007-12-02 13:38, Chaobo99 wrote:
What is this rod boost all of you speak of -.-;;;? (sorry for the nooby question http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif;)

Um, I'm not sure what it is, but Rods are going to get better... I think it may be a speed boost or/and a Elemental% boost

[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-12-02 14:08 ]

Isabella

Dec 2, 2007, 05:10 PM

remember when it was fT on the other end of this broken argument http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif
people.....http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Kimil

Dec 2, 2007, 05:13 PM

On 2007-12-02 14:10, Isabella wrote:
remember when it was fT on the other end of this broken argument http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif
people.....http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

People? If you can't see that Slicers atm are broken... than you are just blind.

We bitch about it, because its Sega fucking up like they always do >_>

Zorafim

Dec 2, 2007, 05:26 PM

On 2007-12-02 14:05, Kimil wrote:
It is a stupid concept that the harder to get ultimate slicer PA is less useful than the easier to get Meseta-bought one. Putting more effort into getting something that is useless... Dumb

It's not just the slicer PA that is less useful.

Carlo210

Dec 2, 2007, 05:26 PM

Not to mention the current slicer PA is C rank and costs 2 grand. lol.

I'm curious to see what's in the slicer's future. Hopefully we catch up to other weapons in regards to PA variety. A multi-toss shuriken PA to go with my shurahiken would be *drool*.
But having some multi-target hitting capabilities with my slicer would be cool, yet may render my claw obsolete. LOL

Blu3_Balla

Dec 2, 2007, 05:38 PM

I swear 2 god if i had 1 meseta for everyone who cries/whines/b*tches about slicer damage, i could have a whole palette of 50% sanzus right now!!!

All i hear is nerf nerf whine whine...the way i see it...if they do so much damage switch 2 AF and stfu

Kimil

Dec 2, 2007, 05:42 PM

On 2007-12-02 14:38, Blu3_Balla wrote:
I swear 2 god if i had 1 meseta for everyone who cries/whines/b*tches about slicer damage, i could have a whole palette of 50% sanzus right now!!!

All i hear is nerf nerf whine whine...the way i see it...if they do so much damage switch 2 AF and stfu

If a class/weapon/PA brakes the game in the way that it becomes useless to use anything BUT that said class/weapon/PA... Its worth fucking bitching about.

Overpowering a Pa/Class = people all conform to that PA/Class. The whole point of Race/Classes customization that this game boasts goes out the window, and everyone's Slicer Bearing AF/FF. And Then Shit sucks.

You Sir, Should STFU

[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-12-02 14:43 ]

bahk

Dec 2, 2007, 05:45 PM

On 2007-12-02 14:42, Kimil wrote:
And Then Shit sucks.

Perhaps the same could already be said about the game.

[ This Message was edited by: bahk on 2007-12-02 14:46 ]

VectormanX

Dec 2, 2007, 05:47 PM

The second slicer PA may only be 130% ATP and 103% ATA, but the first hit with JA does this much-
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w8/x977/PSUv1/psu20071202_173811_007.jpg

And the second hit does -
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w8/x977/PSUv1/psu20071202_173816_008.jpg

But the good thing about this PA is that you actually have to AIM to get results. Apart from that, its still pretty powerful, but has less range, and is much much faster than chikki.

This is damage with a 0/10 24% ice fuumahiken with shifta in a can.

Gunslinger-08

Dec 2, 2007, 05:55 PM

On 2007-12-02 00:31, Reipard wrote:
Or just take Just Attack away from Slicers altogether and actually treat them like a ranged weapon http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

I am in agreement here. Gunners don't get JA for our rifles or anything...

Kimil

Dec 2, 2007, 05:57 PM

On 2007-12-02 14:55, Gunslinger-08 wrote:

On 2007-12-02 00:31, Reipard wrote:
Or just take Just Attack away from Slicers altogether and actually treat them like a ranged weapon http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

I am in agreement here. Gunners don't get JA for our rifles or anything...

Oooo, I missed this comment.... I wouldn't mind this http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif
this could fix things... since it IS a ranged Melee weapon right?

Blu3_Balla

Dec 2, 2007, 05:58 PM

On 2007-12-02 14:42, Kimil wrote:

On 2007-12-02 14:38, Blu3_Balla wrote:
I swear 2 god if i had 1 meseta for everyone who cries/whines/b*tches about slicer damage, i could have a whole palette of 50% sanzus right now!!!

All i hear is nerf nerf whine whine...the way i see it...if they do so much damage switch 2 AF and stfu

If a class/weapon/PA brakes the game in the way that it becomes useless to use anything BUT that said class/weapon/PA... Its worth fucking bitching about.

Overpowering a Pa/Class = people all conform to that PA/Class. The whole point of Race/Classes customization that this game boasts goes out the window, and everyone's Slicer Bearing AF/FF. And Then Shit sucks.

You Sir, Should STFU

[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-12-02 14:43 ]
Funny how u read somthing on the forums and u dont see it in the game. Im still yet 2 hear a techer/gunner say im killing things 2 fast or taking all the expirience. Maybe its becuase the people I play with know how 2 play their classes and get exp without changing how they play, or maybe because the we rather kill everthing and get alot more drops...IDK... So keep whining on the forums maybe sega will nerf em again, ne ways ima go do some runs.

Isabella

Dec 2, 2007, 05:59 PM

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif oh gosh inb4flame

Gunslinger-08

Dec 2, 2007, 06:00 PM

On 2007-12-02 14:58, Blu3_Balla wrote:
Funny how u read somthing on the forums and u dont see it in the game. Im still yet 2 hear a techer/gunner say im killing things 2 fast or taking all the expirience. Maybe its becuase the people I play with know how 2 play their classes and get exp without changing how they play, or maybe because the we rather kill everthing and get alot more drops...IDK... So keep whining on the forums maybe sega will nerf em again, ne ways ima go do some runs.

If we all started complaining in game, we'd probably just get told to STFU or something along those lines. If you complain, you're a whiner. No way for us to win.

[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger-08 on 2007-12-02 15:02 ]

bahk

Dec 2, 2007, 06:02 PM

On 2007-12-02 14:58, Blu3_Balla wrote:

On 2007-12-02 14:42, Kimil wrote:

On 2007-12-02 14:38, Blu3_Balla wrote:
I swear 2 god if i had 1 meseta for everyone who cries/whines/b*tches about slicer damage, i could have a whole palette of 50% sanzus right now!!!

All i hear is nerf nerf whine whine...the way i see it...if they do so much damage switch 2 AF and stfu

If a class/weapon/PA brakes the game in the way that it becomes useless to use anything BUT that said class/weapon/PA... Its worth fucking bitching about.

Overpowering a Pa/Class = people all conform to that PA/Class. The whole point of Race/Classes customization that this game boasts goes out the window, and everyone's Slicer Bearing AF/FF. And Then Shit sucks.

You Sir, Should STFU

[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-12-02 14:43 ]
Funny how u read somthing on the forums and u dont see it in the game. Im still yet 2 hear a techer/gunner say im killing things 2 fast or taking all the expirience. Maybe its becuase the people I play with know how 2 play their classes and get exp without changing how they play, or maybe because the we rather kill everthing and get alot more drops...IDK... So keep whining on the forums maybe sega will nerf em again, ne ways ima go do some runs.

You have a lot to learn about social experiences if you think everyone voices their problems. Just like how I silently curse the beasts with their axes throwing enemies EVERYWHERE, I'm sure more than enough people are sick of everything dying before they can touch it.

DraginHikari

Dec 2, 2007, 06:07 PM

Actually I've had few people complaint at me about slickers, then again, no one has yet to mention the Figunner use of it... then again I can't recall is the Fi gunner ATP multipier lower then the other classes that use the Slicer now?

Miyuki-chan

Dec 2, 2007, 06:12 PM

Yep, Fi is the lower ATP user of slicers now.

beatrixkiddo

Dec 2, 2007, 06:19 PM

AF has lower atp than Fighgunner, except in the case of Humans because the Human racial bonus for AF is higher than the bonus for Fighgunner.

BigMike215

Dec 2, 2007, 06:19 PM

fighgunners suck with slicers compared to foretefighter i hit 4k+ with my palette of 50 slicers =)

BigMike215

Dec 2, 2007, 06:21 PM

oh forgot to mention me and balla raped sw2 in 10minutes with slicers lol

Blu3_Balla

Dec 2, 2007, 06:22 PM

BBBBBBAAAAALLLLLLIIIINNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!

beatrixkiddo

Dec 2, 2007, 06:23 PM

Isabella

Dec 2, 2007, 06:24 PM

kthx

ryvius

Dec 2, 2007, 06:28 PM

Way to be proud of ezmoding with the easiest ezmode in this ezmode game

bahk

Dec 2, 2007, 06:29 PM

On 2007-12-02 15:28, ryvius wrote:
Way to be proud of ezmoding with the easiest ezmode in this ezmode game

Ehhhhhh? Maji? Easy modo?

SStrikerR

Dec 2, 2007, 06:34 PM

On 2007-12-01 22:30, Kimil wrote:

On 2007-12-01 21:40, Remedy wrote:
We already have the nerf. The nerf was 80% reduction in the ATP mod of the first part of the PA and a decrease in the ATA and PP of A-rank Slicers.

They're still ridiculously broken, though.

That was th Beta to Aoti nerf... not the one I'm talking about =/ (I think)

We got about half the nerf the jp is getting/got, and ours are supposedly getting the other half of the nerf soon to, depends on what ST thinks.

And if this is all they are nerfing them to... thats really dumb.
Why?
The one drawback to melee damage is being close up makes you vulnerable to attacks. Rangers do less damage because they have the luxury of not being immediately in the line of fire (in mixed parties).

Slicers are broken in the way that they do ridiculous damage and ALSO keep the user out of the range of counter attacks (unlike most other melee weapons). This is fucking stupid. As A wartecher, I sacrifice DPS for survivability... So slicers really piss me off.

Infact... Acrofighters in general piss me off, great defencive stats and great DPS... Sega, you suck at balancing classes... I mean...

If you play your class well you can usually do better than any other class, doesn't matter what advantage they have, you can do better, im a WT to.

Fortechers are now outdun by a hybrid techer (AT) and
unless you are using Slicers, you are more or less useless now melee wise.I beg to differ with you here, with a party that had a lv 108 using a slicer, and me using renzan seidan ga, (twin claws move) I outdamaged him by an insane mile. In 10 seconds he got about 4 hits while I got around 12 hits. He did 2k per hit, so 8k damage in 10 seconds, while I did about 800 on 10 of those hits, and did 1k on the other 2 hits. I think we know who wins. And that isn't even the best I can do. crea doubles+ gravity/spiral dance <3 sooooo much pain.

PLus Rifles are now useless too. Sega, you suck

[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-12-01 22:38 ]

ryvius

Dec 2, 2007, 06:36 PM

both of these messages confuse and infuriate me!

Remedy

Dec 2, 2007, 08:03 PM

On 2007-12-02 14:10, Isabella wrote:
remember when it was fT on the other end of this broken argument http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif
people.....http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gifExcept we've never BEEN "broken". We've always had decent single-target damage in the form of Diga, but that's it. We've never been broken, but we WERE happily balanced next to gunners and meleers.

Now, that balance is torn to shreds.

Carlo210

Dec 2, 2007, 08:17 PM

It happens.
Really.

And Techers were broken when psu came out.

Rasputin

Dec 2, 2007, 09:37 PM

I really don't like slicers all that much. I much prefer my double sabers, twin sabers, and just about every weapon I use that isn't a slicer.

I can use slicers situationally, but I would never consider making em my primary weapon.

Remedy

Dec 2, 2007, 09:38 PM

No, we weren't. Like I said, we did relatively high single-target damage, but we were still out-paced by HUs for mutiple target damage.

Carlo210

Dec 2, 2007, 09:44 PM

Cause Ra-techs certainly sucked back then, along with dambarta..

Pengfishh

Dec 2, 2007, 09:54 PM

I find them hard to use at the moment. The damage is swell, sure, but... iuno, I need to spend more time with them, I guess. If I don't get used to them fast enough, I'm putting a Saber back in that slot.

Then again, I might just level up Chikki for soloing purposes. All the same, I guess.

Remedy

Dec 2, 2007, 09:55 PM

Damubarta was not the end all, be all spell that people proclaimed it to be, and I had it from the day it came out and was like the third person with it to 21.

It's useful, and we all used it because of its versatility (nice, wide range) and its low-risk use (knockback). It's certainly not a godly spell, and it's the weakest of all the Damu- spells.

As for Ra- spells, they level so fucking slow and are so touchy in their aiming that I don't even waste my time with them. Gi- technics are far more versatile.

DraginHikari

Dec 2, 2007, 10:30 PM

The slicer is just a fun weapon are far as I use it. Really it comes down to being no more effective for me then the Double Sabers or anything else I use as a Figunner.

Fi I guess lack the ATP of the FF and the Speed and S-ranks of the AF.

Mystil

Dec 2, 2007, 11:57 PM

When the cap raises, Im going to have to use slicers for 'tagging'. It'll be the only way to get xp. It doesn't matter now because I'm 110, but in the parties I join, I find myself not really killing or hitting anything. I've resorted to the single claw second PA, because it's launch speed rivals slicers. Only problem is, it burns through PP at the speed of light and horrible horrible accuracy.

_Vyser_

Dec 3, 2007, 12:28 AM

I only use slicers for soloing. Otherwise I use a daggers or single claw (both ult pa's) in place of a slicer.

Rayokarna

Dec 3, 2007, 02:36 AM

I have two questions about slicers...

1) Does the PA hit multiple targets more than once in the first and second part of the combo?

2) What is the speed rate of how quick the PA gets off?

This may a newb-ish question but I have yet to see slicers in action for my self...

Aviendha

Dec 3, 2007, 02:36 AM

On 2007-12-02 15:34, Ryan113 wrote:

We got about half the nerf the jp is getting/got, and ours are supposedly getting the other half of the nerf soon to, depends on what ST thinks.

with a party that had a lv 108 using a slicer, and me using renzan seidan ga, (twin claws move) I outdamaged him by an insane mile. In 10 seconds he got about 4 hits while I got around 12 hits. He did 2k per hit, so 8k damage in 10 seconds, while I did about 800 on 10 of those hits, and did 1k on the other 2 hits. I think we know who wins. And that isn't even the best I can do. crea doubles+ gravity/spiral dance <3 sooooo much pain.

Actually, we got exactly the nerf JP was promised and AFAIK, received. See here for details. http://tinyurl.com/2lkfo3

You're so wrong it hurts. Renzan is indeed very good now, but its no Chikki. You say he got 4 hits to your 12. Given that Chikki does 3 hits on infinite targets, I'm going to assume you meant 3 and not 4. You're absolutely right (even though the number of hits you claim to have done is strange because Renzan does 11 max) that you did more damage. You're wrong in thinking that this is a good example of how Chikki is best used. Chikki will be outdamaged by pretty much every other PA if you're only hitting 1-2 enemies. It really shines on 4+ enemy mobs though, where it easily outdamages everything. I'm a Human Female lvl 90 AF 11, and I do about 6K per use of the full Chikki combo. Per target. Multiply by 3,4,5 targets...you see why Chikki is win?

Its nice that Hunters now have a PA that hits big groups without blasting them all over the room at the end, but does it really need to do as much damage as Jabroga? The sensible answer is "no".

Edit: Link made shorter.

[ This Message was edited by: Aviendha on 2007-12-03 14:13 ]

Kerschweiser

Dec 3, 2007, 02:53 AM

Now factor in the insane PP regeneration a Just Attack returns off one of these things vs a large group of targets and you see just how broken this weapon is balance-wise.

Miyoko

Dec 3, 2007, 02:55 AM

Aviendha, care to use a tinyurl for those of us with 1024x768 screens? >_>

Carlo210

Dec 3, 2007, 02:56 AM

Kersch, slicers don't get multiple pp returns. It doesn't matter how many mobs you hit, you'll always regenerate the same amount of pp with a slicer.

Kerschweiser

Dec 3, 2007, 02:59 AM

My mistake. I constantly walk around with a full energy bar from a mix of regular and PA attacks I just naturally assumed the bonus stacked with the target #.

Talynn

Dec 3, 2007, 04:28 AM

I myself am a CAST Fortefighter, and I have to say that Slicers are indeed a bit overpowered, granted, but it isn't the one thing filling up my Palette. To me, Slicers are more or less of a utility / fire suppression weapon that I would pull out and use /once/ on a large clustered mob, then switch to one of my other main weapons. To me, that makes it seem a bit more balanced to use. Cause, like all weapons, Slicers have a certain time to be called upon and used for a certain amount of time, regardless if its damage output is greater than most. But take for example Axes, and Shot GUns, things like those in their "best scenarios" are also like the Slicer of damage output. Its only that Slicers are only just a bit more obvious on how potentially powerful they are. Even then, though, I go by my own conduct of switching from weapon to another when I can.

Kerschweiser

Dec 3, 2007, 04:47 AM

All weapons and TECHs are situational, any experienced player should know this. That being said there's no excuse for spamming slicer PAs on anything but a large group of small to meduim sized enemies.

Carlo210

Dec 3, 2007, 07:15 AM

Exactly, so if slicers are only strong against mobs of small-medium sized enemies, what's the big deal? My Claw overpowers my slicer on large enemies and smaller mobs of enemies due to the speed and amount of hits. I'm fine with that. Slicers feel like crap in a lot of situations I enounter. They are definately not the only weapon you need to have in your pallette which, pesonally, I think makes it a pretty balanced weapon. Of course, the PA is strong, but it's not strong in every situation. Heck, it can be darn weak and even useless sometimes for a lot of different reasons. In many situations, the slow speed, lack of crowd control, and lack of multi-target damage will mean a lot to me when deciding whether or not to use a slicer over my trusty claw.

Shiro_Ryuu

Dec 3, 2007, 09:17 AM

Good to see that some people can understand the use of Slicers. You're not going to catch me using one when there are huge monsters with multiple slots or if the monsters are spread out, I'll be better off using Spinning Strike on the monsters if they're widely spread out, or Hikai Shuha-zan on a large monster. There are also times when killing one monster at a time to reduce the population would be a much better way to not get killed than spreading the damage, and Sabers and Daggers are better at doing more focused damage, while Slicers do more widespread damage.

amtalx

Dec 3, 2007, 09:43 AM

Slicers again? Ok, lets recap.

Hunters: FUX YEAH!! We can 3 shot things now!
Everyone else: I thought there were supposed to be enemies this mission, but it looks like its just empty blocks with drops in them and some dude spamming "SLICER'D BITCH!!" over and over again.

Why do hunters do better ranged damage than rangers now? My Laser Cannon can't touch that kind of damage.

Conclusion: 2nd and 3rd hits need to be balanced. Maybe hunters shouldn't have the ability to outrange rangers. hmm?

Mystil

Dec 3, 2007, 10:38 AM

On 2007-12-02 23:36, Rayokarna wrote:
I have two questions about slicers...

1) Does the PA hit multiple targets more than once in the first and second part of the combo?

2) What is the speed rate of how quick the PA gets off?

This may a newb-ish question but I have yet to see slicers in action for my self...

From my observation..

1.) No it doesn't, but each hit..2200+ with rifle-like range. :/

2.) It is about as fast with launching as hikai(single dagger ult PA)and the "shoot in the air" part of Senten Kanzan-ga. It doesn't take long for 1 slicer combo to plow through a wave of monsters..

RadiantLegend

Dec 3, 2007, 10:51 AM

Rifle-like range on that thing....

Thats really over doing it.

Carlo210

Dec 3, 2007, 11:35 AM

It's not like you snipe people with the slicer. You guys are going way overboard. Use the slicer as your only weapons and try to use it like a rifle. Go ahead.
We'll see how fast you run out of pp and how little damage you do to the enemy you're sniping compared to if you just ran up to it and starting whacking it with a melee weapon.

Using a slicer as a ranged weapon is just plain stupid. You can't spam a slicer as rifle or lazer cannon range for god's sake. So the laser does less damage per shot. But how fast does it shoot? How much pp does it have? Does it cause status effects? How often does it miss? What are the new buffs laser cannon BAs got?
Yeah, saying a slicer does 1500 damage at rifle range and penetrates like a lazer makes it sound so godly, but you're ignoring many other things just in order to make your point sound more convincing.

Rifles are, first of all, not damage dealing weapons, so comparing them to slicers in any way is silly. Lasers are damage dealing weapons, but, like all ranged weapons, lose some power to melee weapons because they can cause SE and are more accurate. If you don't like the tradeoff of power for status effects and accuracy, that isn't the fault of hunters.

Slicers are not ranged weapons in that they have only 300 pp, regen 4.5 pp per tick, have crappy normal attack range, are slower than many other guns when using our PA (which is what we are discussing), do horrible single-target damage, aren't very pa-spam friendly, travel slowly, don't cause status effects, and have a buttload less accuracy.
Yes, they do better burst damage, and better overall damage, but that's it. If that's the only thing that matters to you, you should've been a hunter class since the start.

Rangers with ranged weapons have over 1000 pp, regen 12-ish pp per tick, have good range, flinch the enemies, are fast and spam-friendly, cause status effects, and have way more accuracy than melee weapons.

It's simple. If you're complaining about slicers being better as a ranged combat weapon, you're forgetting what ranged combat constists of. All the slicer is is a ranged damage dealer, while your large variety of guns are accurate, fast, spam-friendly, damaging, flinch the enemies, and provide excellent support. If you think range combat constists of attacking mobs from a huge arse distance to where you can barely see the enemy, then that's your own little niche gameplay.

Maybe you feel as if killing stuff asap is more important than support/SEs. If so, then you may want to give up status effects and so forth and become a melee class.
For those who think SEs are useless, stop using your damned fire and virus elements. Equip ice or plasma. Status effects proc so often now that having enemies freeze every 4 seconds is way more useful than trying to ignite the enemy on fire to do 1 tick of damage before the mob dies.

If you're angry about melee classes being better rangers, then nitpicking over slicers is an erroneous argument. They aren't ranged weapons in that they don't share the benefits/tradeoffs that ranged weapons/BAs have. Slicers don't cause status effects, they don't flinch as well, aren't as spam-friendly, are crappy single-enemy damage dealers (hello, grenade launcher), and so forth.

If you're angry that slicers have a long range, then boo hoo. The benefit of being able to kill enemies form a range is given to almost every class in the game for pete's sake. Fighgunners with dual pistols have been doing very good damage for a long time.
Heck, Slicers are the worst at hitting enemies that are far away (since you bring up rifle-like range). They travel slowly and are hard to aim at distant baddies, especially at your toted as 'useful' rifle range.

So, if you think the slicer is a viable ranged weapon, use it as one. Turn into a hunter class and use the slicer as if it were a laser cannon. Spam the heck out of that Y/X/Up button and see how much ownage the slicer is as a ranged accuracy/SE/flinch weapon. Also, shoot at the maximum range, since you place such a heavy emphasis on ranged distance for some odd reason.
Whenever I see rangers, they aren't a mile away from the action. They're right beside me getting in on the action and having fun. Lazers, crossbows, and shotguns hardly capitalize on 'distanced' combat.

There's my shmeel. Chiki is strong, but it isn't some godly treat that craps all over everything else in the game. It's just another weapon that specializes in mob damage, just as the grenade launcher specializes in mob damage. Chiki does better overall straight damage being a weapon for hunter classes, who specialize in that. However, the grenade launcher also hits multiple targets, causes status effects (which are useful as long as you don't use the useless fire, virus, or confuse ones), has better accuracy, and so forth.

Those are the basic benefits of being a hunter versus a ranger and the slicer doesn't change that one bit except for the fact that it shoots far, though hardly acts as well as a ranged weapon for actual distanced combat, which is a useless form of combat unless you are fighting a jarba or mage in a big room, which is a single enemy, which slicers SUCK against.

These are the kinds of things the ranger classes are built for - trading power for support and accuracy. If you don't like that, then tough. That's what rangers are. 'Long-range Distanced Combat' is hardly a part of the equation as the good ranged weapons are medium-close range and are just as overpowered on paper as the slicer is.
Shotguns do 350 damage 5 times every time you shoot? And freeze the enemies?
Crossbows do 450 damage 3 times really fast and cause level 3 status effects? And you can strafe at the same time??

Sorry for the long post. It beats many small posts that drag on conversations until hell freezes over. Now whenever I want to say something about slicers, I can just CTRL+c and CTRL+v.

[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-12-03 08:47 ]

Fried

Dec 3, 2007, 11:56 AM

lol...how did the myth of slicers having rifle range come into this conversation?

Pengfishh

Dec 3, 2007, 12:09 PM

You tell 'em, Carlos.

Talynn

Dec 3, 2007, 12:10 PM

No words said truer.

/thread

panzer_unit

Dec 3, 2007, 12:11 PM

Really all slicers need is for it to be sorta hard to line up more than 3 targets. Chikki would be right on par with plenty of other melee PA's, there are loads that have similarly insane per-hit damage... being able to make good on that unlimited number of hits so often is retarded though.

Here's hoping for new missions that Sega doesn't set all the spawn patterns to LOL BOWLING PINS.

EDIT: of course, you can set up the bomb for that slicer nerf yourself with the right PA's... get some Tornado Dance / Dugrega / Grenade going.

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-03 09:13 ]

Carlo210

Dec 3, 2007, 12:20 PM

The name's Carlo. My lady friends call me Insinuano (that's Italian for creep).

I had to GoogleTranslate that word too.

@ Remedy. Fine, it does 2200 for some people. Whatever. My above argument still applies. Do you want to argue about how Anga Jabroga is like a grenade launcher, but does 500x more damage?
Don't take the speed, pp cost, lack of SE, accuracy, or anything into consideration because that sort of thing isn't important.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-12-03 09:22 ]

Remedy

Dec 3, 2007, 12:20 PM

On 2007-12-03 08:35, Carlo210 wrote:
Yeah, saying a slicer does 1500 damage at rifle range and penetrates like a lazer makes it sound so godlyIf Chikki only did 1500 damage per mob, we wouldn't be complaining.

amtalx

Dec 3, 2007, 12:26 PM

On 2007-12-03 08:35, Carlo210 wrote:
blah blah blah

Ranged:
O-------------X

Not Ranged:
O-X

Just so we've got that clear. Ranged != SE. Ranged is distance.

Of course FGs had a viable ranged option with Dual Pistols, they are FighGUNNERS, and their ranged damage was still lower than fGs. But now, Slicer damage eclipses my Laser Cannon...by a lot. And don't argue that SE is the point of ranged combat. SE is all but pointless now with the damage that people are cranking out. That's not a problem with Slicers though, thats just ST pressing the easy button.

Carlo210

Dec 3, 2007, 12:38 PM

@ Amtalx

Lol. If you feel SE is pointless, then that's a huge part of ranger out the window. Like I said, that isn't the slicer's fault. Same things with accuracy.
You are arguing that attacking from range is what unbalances the slicer, correct? Fine. Slicers attack from a distance. They don't, hoever, surpass the range of rifles as stated above as they are extremely difficult to aim at enemies that far away. Secondly, ranged combat is different from distant combat. Ranged combat refers to guns while distances can refer to anything - Anga Jabroga, techs, slicers, yoyodaggers, whatthesmackever.
Gun have certain benefits that melee weapons don't have - status effects, element changing on-the-fly, flat-out ATP bonuses, spamability, flinch, accuracy, mobility, etc. These are things that define the ranger class. The slicer doesn't interfere with any of these things, therefore doesn't deter from a ranger's experience.
Attacking from a distance is not exclusive to a ranger and never was. So many classes use bows, twin pistols, pistols, techs, and so forth that your touted so-called vital 'attack form a far ranged distance' makes no sense in the defense of a fortegunner.
We were able to outdamage you with twin pistols, now we can do the same, but with a different weapon - a slicer. It doesn't have the benefits of a gun, but has the benefits of a melee weapon MINUS the multi-target capabilities.

If forteguner, by design, is a beserking damage dealing class who sniped enemies from far away and were on-par with melee damage, then the slicer certainly does defeat your purpose.
However, this isn't the fortegunner's design.

I should've just done ctrl+c and ctrl+v.

@ Remedy
Please don't bring ultimate PAs like berserker grenade into this argument. That PA's purpose is to give fortegunner a way to do straight damage. That's it. It's an expensive and largely impractical PA by design on purpose.

Those who think fortegunners should be on-par with melee damage aren't taking the true strength of fortegunners into account. If you feel that a gunners' strengths are 'useless', then fine, that's a whole different topic. If you want to try and make your fortegunner someone who can outdamage a melee-er, then fine, but that's playing against your strengths and should clue you into the fact that fortegunner isn't the class for you.

This isn't the place to discuss whether or not Fortegunners are too weak or what not - I don't care. Slicers have nothing to do with the usefulness of Status effects, accuracy, and so forth.
If you want to discuss those topics, then create a new topic titled "EzMode PSU is making my support character useless. I'm trying to mold him into a damage dealer, but it's not working."
It would be a viable topic and I'm sure fortetechers will enjoy joining you in there.

[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-12-03 09:45 ]

Remedy

Dec 3, 2007, 12:38 PM

On 2007-12-03 09:20, Carlo210 wrote:
@ Remedy. Fine, it does 2200 for some people. Whatever. My above argument still applies. Do you want to argue about how Anga Jabroga is like a grenade launcher, but does 500x more damage?
Don't take the speed, pp cost, lack of SE, accuracy, or anything into consideration because that sort of thing isn't important.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gifLet's see.

Speed: Having watched Jabroga and grenade launchers, I'd say you can get two to three grenades per Jabroga. I'd have to do some strict testing to actually define it better, but that's a very rough, sketchy estimate.

PP cost: The best offensive BA for grenade launchers, Boma Duranga, costs 44 PP a shot at 31+. Anga Jabroga costs 56 PP a shot at 31+. (We are, of course, assuming Fortegunners and Fortefighters, the best users of both Arts in question.)

Lack of SE: Boma Duranga does not have an SE.

Accuracy: Anga Jabroga has 85% ATA. Boma Durenga has 86% ATA. Fortegunners have a higher inherent accuracy, but Fortefighters have a higher inherent ATP, and can afford to use an item such as Solid/Knight to enhance their ATA. Plus, as most people say, "ATA is useless", right?

Number of hits: Anga Jabroga can hit an enemy with five or more targets 10 times. Boma Duranga can hit an enemy with four or more targets 4 times.

ATP: Anga Jabroga has 410% ATP at level 40. Boma Duranga has 400% ATP at level 40. Axes have an inherently higher base ATP, as well as the advantage of elements (not possible with Duranga). Fortefighters also have a higher base ATP than Fortegunners.

*blinks* Are we done?

Edit: And it's usually more like 2500-2800, from what I see Fortefighters putting out. *shrug*

[ This Message was edited by: Remedy on 2007-12-03 09:39 ]

Reipard

Dec 3, 2007, 12:58 PM

You keep saying you should CTRL+C and CTRL+V as if your word is totally the best and last, but you still have said nothing that proves anything more than that you haven't partied with people who use Slicers.

Chiki Kyoreijin is broken. It DOES crap over almost everything else in the game, because it hits multiple targets for the kind of damage close range stuff such as Dus Majarra and Gravity Break does without all the hassle of being close range. It also ruins other people's enjoyment because if two or more people are using Slicers (Hell, even one person will make a significant difference in how fast things die) things will die so quickly that people have to rush to tag if they want exp at all.

You claim people are leaving things out of their posts to make their argument stronger, but you're exaggerating the Slicer's flaws to accomplish the same thing. Low PP? Yeah, the Slicer can PP regen per hit just like any other melee weapon. And PP regen is massively boosted with JA. And if the PP is too low, there's nothing saying we can't grind it~~.

Accuracy? Right! ATA is useless http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif. It has a floor and a ceiling vs. EVP. And the floor isn't severe enough for misses to be frequent unless you're a really low level.

Remedy

Dec 3, 2007, 01:00 PM

On 2007-12-03 09:38, Carlo210 wrote:
@ Remedy
Please don't bring ultimate PAs like berserker grenade into this argument.So you can use UPAs in YOUR side of the argument, but I can't? This is as balanced as the comparison between FFs and FTs! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Kylie

Dec 3, 2007, 01:06 PM

So many other things need "rebalancing," but I've heard how powerful they were before. So I guess the other stuff can be tolerated. But it would have been nice to get the WT bonus at launch as well, but perhaps they didn't feel like it was important enough to include right away. ;/ That's the only thing I dislike about being a WT, too.

Carlo210

Dec 3, 2007, 01:09 PM

On 2007-12-03 09:58, Reipard wrote:
You keep saying you should CTRL+C and CTRL+V as if your word is totally the best and last, but you still have said nothing that proves anything more than that you haven't partied with people who use Slicers.

Chiki Kyoreijin is broken. It DOES crap over almost everything else in the game, because it hits multiple targets for the kind of damage close range stuff such as Dus Majarra and Gravity Break does without all the hassle of being close range. It also ruins other people's enjoyment because if two or more people are using Slicers (Hell, even one person will make a significant difference in how fast things die) things will die so quickly that people have to rush to tag if they want exp at all.

You claim people are leaving things out of their posts to make their argument stronger, but you're exaggerating the Slicer's flaws to accomplish the same thing. Low PP? Yeah, the Slicer can PP regen per hit just like any other melee weapon. And PP regen is massively boosted with JA. And if the PP is too low, there's nothing saying we can't grind it~~.

Accuracy? Right! ATA is useless http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif. It has a floor and a ceiling vs. EVP. And the floor isn't severe enough for misses to be frequent unless you're a really low level.

Agreed. I never denied any of it.
May I ask you what this has to do with the fortegunner versus slicer debate?

desturel

Dec 3, 2007, 01:27 PM

On 2007-12-03 08:35, Carlo210 wrote:
It's just another weapon that specializes in mob damage, just as the grenade launcher specializes in mob damage.

Only wanted to comment on this part. The grenade sucks for mob damage unless the mob doesn't get blown away. The blowback on the grenade makes it difficult to multi-hit any small or medium target. It's better to use a laser, single dagger with lvl 20 BSZ, or xbox/shotgun on mobs.

Heck, the whip is better for certain mobs. The neuman in Sacred Stream, for example, get sucked inward when using the whip and cannot attack. As a fortetecher with level 10 Visshi Grudda, I can kill mobs faster than a fortegunner trying to spam Boma Durenga. Chikki Kyoren-jin + Visshi Grudda in a two person team is a very effective mob killing combo IF the Chikki user waits for the Visshi user to start their thing.

Kimil

Dec 3, 2007, 01:30 PM

Way to save this game:

Since Slicers are ranged and all... lets take away JA from them. Then the numbers wont be so damn ridiculous.

Rifles and Lasers don't get JA... why should this weapon that has the same range as both of them get it?

[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-12-03 10:30 ]

DraginHikari

Dec 3, 2007, 01:34 PM

I don't understand really whyeveryone is getting all worked up over this, to be honset I haven't had one team compliant when I use a Slicer, I got far more grief from having a double saber in my inventory then I do my Slicer >>

@Kimil

That because Slicers are created with the Melee single handed weapon characteristics... why would they remove a element of the melee setup just because the weapon doesn't fit in the usual term, it's still consider a Hunter based weapon

-It's right handed
-It uses Skills
-Standard attacks don't drain PP
-PP regenerates when standard attacks are used.

So in ST sense it's a melee weapon

[ This Message was edited by: DraginHikari on 2007-12-03 10:38 ]

Kimil

Dec 3, 2007, 01:41 PM

You are a Figuuner, the worst user of the Slicer so its not as bad with you thats why.

I'd remove the JA from Slicers because they've reached a gray area between ranged and melee which would be okay, but has left them broken as hell

Range= Defence from Counter attacks.
When this is paired with melee Damage, things are broken.
You kill EVERYTHING without a care in the world.

With they get this aspect of ranged weapons (safety from counter attack, and their shear range), they should lose something of their Melee aspect to balace this. Ie: JA

amtalx

Dec 3, 2007, 01:51 PM

On 2007-12-03 09:38, Carlo210 wrote:
Lol. If you feel SE is pointless, then that's a huge part of ranger out the window. Like I said, that isn't the slicer's fault. Same things with accuracy.
You are arguing that attacking from range is what unbalances the slicer, correct? Fine. Slicers attack from a distance. They don't, hoever, surpass the range of rifles as stated above as they are extremely difficult to aim at enemies that far away.

I'm not sure who was comparing Slicers to Rifle range, but I'm pretty sure it's not that long. And yes, SE is pointless (almost), and a huge part of being a gunner has gone out the window, but that's an entirely different issue altogether. The 2nd AMF run is just about the only mission in the game left with enemies that last long enough for SE to serve a purpose. Still though, I still don't thing I've been in a post-AoI party where I've seen my Burn run an entire cycle.

Secondly, ranged combat is different from distant combat. Ranged combat refers to guns while distances can refer to anything - Anga Jabroga, techs, slicers, yoyodaggers, whatthesmackever.
Gun have certain benefits that melee weapons don't have - status effects, element changing on-the-fly, flat-out ATP bonuses, spamability, flinch, accuracy, mobility, etc. These are things that define the ranger class. The slicer doesn't interfere with any of these things, therefore doesn't deter from a ranger's experience.

Techs are ranged too... Ranged means you don't need to be near your target to hit it. There are more things than guns that allow you to attack your target without physical proximity. And last time I checked, Jabroga didn't involve throwing the Axe.

Attacking from a distance is not exclusive to a ranger and never was. So many classes use bows, twin pistols, pistols, techs, and so forth that your touted so-called vital 'attack form a far ranged distance' makes no sense in the defense of a fortegunner.
We were able to outdamage you with twin pistols, now we can do the same, but with a different weapon - a slicer. It doesn't have the benefits of a gun, but has the benefits of a melee weapon MINUS the multi-target capabilities.

Of course other classes have ranged abilities. Every class has some kind of ranged attack. The point is that Fortegunners do ranged combat better than anyone else...that's what the Forte- part is for. I mean, hell, it's in the freakin' class description. Just like Fortefighters are unrivaled in melee damage and Fortetechers are unrivaled in techs (only offensive, post-AoI)...at least it used to be that way. I'm not sure who 'we' is but if you are talking about Fighgunners, you could never outdamage fGs with Twin Pistols, nor can you now. Pre-AoI, the ATP difference between FG and fG was 8%, which is less than the ATP gain from the additional 10 bullet levels that fGs get over FGs, even without the elemental boost at 21+ factored in. Don't even get me started on FGs laughable ATA.

If forteguner, by design, is a beserking damage dealing class who sniped enemies from far away and were on-par with melee damage, then the slicer certainly does defeat your purpose.
However, this isn't the fortegunner's design.

fGs are not on par with fighters in terms of melee damage, nor should they ever be. My point is that fighters are on par with ranged damage (however you choose to define it). Slicers outdamage my Laser Cannon at a similar range, end of story. Not to mention that the Laser Cannon has one of the highest, if not the highest potential DPS of any weapon in the fG arsenal. Damage isn't everything, but when it's the most important part of actually killing monsters you can't ignore it.

Shiro_Ryuu

Dec 3, 2007, 02:26 PM

I was thinking that if it really gets too out of hand, they should just nerf the range of Slicers. I mean, I'll still use them, although even now, I only use them situationally, and use a Saber or a Dagger in most situations.

Anduril

Dec 3, 2007, 02:33 PM

I have never gotten complaints from my using a Slicer. But then again it could be that I'm a Newman AF, and my 8* Shadoog outdamages my Slicer. I find that it is a useful weapon, in moderation. I still prefer to use Single and Twin Sabers, but when I know that an enemy will take out 1/2 of my HP due to my Newman DFP I pull out the Slicer to avoid a Painful death.

panzer_unit

Dec 3, 2007, 02:37 PM

On 2007-12-03 10:51, amtalx wrote:
Techs are ranged too... Ranged means you don't need to be near your target to hit it. There are more things than guns that allow you to attack your target without physical proximity. And last time I checked, Jabroga didn't involve throwing the Axe.

If you fire it off at the wrong time, you can get smacked out of Jabroga mid-air without dealing any damage.

Pengfishh

Dec 3, 2007, 02:43 PM

Also, on the subject of PP regen, when you pair something with a Shadoog, using a Photon Charge just fills that right handed weapon, naturally. In the case of the Slicer, PP is still not a consideration to worry much over.

In any case, let's all just considering kicking folks that use slicers, eh?

ThEoRy

Dec 3, 2007, 03:07 PM

On 2007-12-02 17:17, Carlo210 wrote:
It happens.
Really.

And Techers were broken when psu came out.

yeah we were totally broken when we didn't even have buffs yet...

Kensei

Dec 3, 2007, 03:21 PM

From what I've seen the Slicer PA range is like that of rifles. I've noticed I am still able to hit monsters a good distance beyond where the slicers PA blast animation fades away. Also, from my personal experience I've seen that I can stand out of range of all long range spells thrown at me and continuously hit these mobs with the Chikki PA. I suppose I just need someone with a rifle to do a test run with me and then we can see who can shoot further.

Reipard

Dec 3, 2007, 03:24 PM

Agreed. I never denied any of it.

Yes, you did :. You specifically claimed Slicers weren't (viable) ranged weapons when they most definitely are. And more viable than most RANGERS' ranged weapons at that since their damage A: Completely outclasses those weapons and B: Nullifies the utility of their status effects, which you claim are the baseline for ranged weaponry.

What's better? Killing something before it can get an attack in or stopping it from attacking for a little bit?

You also claimed that Slicers aren't that broken because they share exaggerated qualities with some Ranger weapons that they completely outclass to begin with.

If you're going to use that post of yours as some kind of global response to this argument as you claim, you should at least be prepared to defend it.

May I ask you what this has to do with the fortegunner versus slicer debate?

It has to do with what you said.

As an addendum to cover this: There should be a degree of seperation when arguing Slicers+Chiki and just Slicers in general, but the fact of the matter is that Slicers have Chiki Kyoreijin as an immediately available PA. So the broken aspect is a part of the weapon by default. So when you argue Slicers, it has to be included because it's a part of them. Do you argue using spears without including Dus Majarra in the evaluation?

[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-12-03 12:28 ]

DraginHikari

Dec 3, 2007, 03:29 PM

On 2007-12-03 11:43, Pengfishh wrote:
Also, on the subject of PP regen, when you pair something with a Shadoog, using a Photon Charge just fills that right handed weapon, naturally. In the case of the Slicer, PP is still not a consideration to worry much over.

In any case, let's all just considering kicking folks that use slicers, eh?

Heh wouldn't surprise me really if people did do that... I used to get kicked several timestimes for having a double saber even before I ever pulled it out or used Tornado Dance XD

Then again is anyone even concerned about Tornado Dance anymore? Or are Slicer just considered the new n00b weapon XD

[ This Message was edited by: DraginHikari on 2007-12-03 12:32 ]

Reipard

Dec 3, 2007, 03:40 PM

People didn't like Tornado Dance much because it sent everything flying to all sides of the room. People don't like Slicers much because they leave the room clean thanks to Chiki.

To boot simply for using either is stupid. Just because you use Slicers doesn't mean you're a fun ruining exp hog. But the PA makes it much much easier to exp hog due to its sheer power. So a lot of people play like they normally do which would normally allow everyone to tag, but it doesn't in this case.

Basically, just have some consideration for your party before you spam that PA and you'll be fine.

Stixx

Dec 3, 2007, 04:10 PM

I enjoy using slicers, but for some reason I find myself using my normal attacks more than the PA. It's almost at 40, and by than I'll have enough time to cap a few of my other PAs before we get hit with the new AOI PAs.

As for slicers ruining parties, if you actually take the time to consider the other people in the party and let them get their hits slicers are a powerful tool to clear missions quickly. Also, slicers are nearly useless on bosses >.>

chibiLegolas

Dec 3, 2007, 04:43 PM

On 2007-12-03 09:58, Reipard wrote:
Low PP? Yeah, the Slicer can PP regen per hit just like any other melee weapon. And PP regen is massively boosted with JA. And if the PP is too low, there's nothing saying we can't grind it~~.

Oh paper this sounds like cheese, but to combo to get back PP is much harder and slower than it sounds. At least for me.
Waiting for a spawn to gather for the perfect set up for slicer PA spamming is one thing. But after 1 full PA combo is done, most times, the mob is all scattered and not ideal to even JA to regain alot of PP back. Just like a lazer cannon, it's hard to set up the mob into a perfect area for slicer use. And whenever I DO get a JA combo out for PP regen, I'm either not hitting enough targets to PA spam again, or I barely have enough to do only Tier 1 PA again. Whenever I try to use slicers as my main weapon (which is a failed stradegy), I'm often using my mechguns way MORE often (my main way to PP regen slicers whenever mobs are scattered) than my slicers cause of the ridiculous PP drain it causes.
Granted tho, I'm only a lvl 70/FiG 15 male human. And only do on average 1500 a hit.

Slicers maybe broken on FF cause of their higher ATP and natural PP regen, I wouldn't know (I'm not one). But I think most ppl get the wrong idea that they're over powered cause they're ONLY remembering the ideal spawn situations that would favor slicer use. Whenever I joined random parties with slicer happy folks, crowded mobs go down fast, sure. But it's not at an insane rate that everyone makes it sound like. High PP costs makes sure that it wouldn't happen often. Unless slicer happy folks are walking around with tons of photon charges or multiple slicers.

I could argue the same with a group of fighters spamming Dus Majarra. Everything dies so fast, I'm lucky if I can tag if I tried using my SLOWER moving slicer.

And slicers are stepping on rangers toes cause they're ranged weapons? lol. You can't be serious now?
Most times, my slicer's path is kinda uncontrolable/not accurate, compared to using a lazer cannon. Mobs are moving, and I can swirve my aim a bit (to miss http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif ) as well during a combo (like other melee combos). I toss it into a mob and just hope for the best. A lot of times you see red targets appear, but that doesn't mean by the time your slicer reaches them, they're still gonna be highlighted red to BE hit. While lazer cannons are much faster and a bit more reliable on which targets you're aiming at.

I dunno. Maybe I suck at using slicers and are missing something about proper slice usage?

ryvius

Dec 3, 2007, 04:48 PM

I find them incredibly easy to use - they cut a huge swath through enemies.. their path is a lot wider than lasers.

beatrixkiddo

Dec 3, 2007, 05:07 PM

lol

Aviendha

Dec 3, 2007, 05:43 PM

On 2007-12-03 08:35, Carlo210 wrote:
Heck, Slicers are the worst at hitting enemies that are far away (since you bring up rifle-like range). They travel slowly and are hard to aim at distant baddies, especially at your toted as 'useful' rifle range.

Slicer basic attack is difficult to aim at distant enemies, when the semi-homing doesn't cooperate, but the argument is about Chikki, which is very easy to aim at distant enemies. You just aim in the general direction of the enemy and let the mile-wide hitbox do the rest.

On 2007-12-03 09:11, panzer_unit wrote:
Here's hoping for new missions that Sega doesn't set all the spawn patterns to LOL BOWLING PINS.
[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-03 09:13 ]

It would be great if it actually took time to set up Chikki instead of immediately having a perfectly formed mob.

On 2007-12-03 11:33, Anduril wrote:
I have never gotten complaints from my using a Slicer. But then again it could be that I'm a Newman AF, and my 8* Shadoog outdamages my Slicer. I find that it is a useful weapon, in moderation. I still prefer to use Single and Twin Sabers, but when I know that an enemy will take out 1/2 of my HP due to my Newman DFP I pull out the Slicer to avoid a Painful death.

Unless you're not using JA, attacking a single enemy with their own element slicer while your shadoog is the correct element, this is impossible. Even then, actually, it might still be impossible.

Kimil

Dec 3, 2007, 05:45 PM

Lol, my topic is still alive? XD

Reipard

Dec 3, 2007, 05:51 PM

Slicers maybe broken on FF cause of their higher ATP and natural PP regen, I wouldn't know (I'm not one). But I think most ppl get the wrong idea that they're over powered cause they're ONLY remembering the ideal spawn situations that would favor slicer use. Whenever I joined random parties with slicer happy folks, crowded mobs go down fast, sure. But it's not at an insane rate that everyone makes it sound like. High PP costs makes sure that it wouldn't happen often.

It is at that insane rate. I joined a party with only one slicer using FF (using Chiki Kyoreijin) and it was very hard to tag everything.

Unless slicer happy folks are walking around with tons of photon charges or multiple slicers.

You make it sound like that's uncommon and that PCs and Slicers are hard to get.

I could argue the same with a group of fighters spamming Dus Majarra. Everything dies so fast, I'm lucky if I can tag if I tried using my SLOWER moving slicer.

The difference is, that's a GROUP of fighters spamming Dus Majarra. This is A fighter or maybe two fighters spamming Chiki Kyoreijin. Chances are you'd be able to get to the mobs before the Majarra spam starts too. Not so with Chiki; by that time, people have already begun to JA the PA.

And slicers are stepping on rangers toes cause they're ranged weapons? lol. You can't be serious now?

Slicers themselves aren't stepping on Rangers' toes, but Slicer WITH Chiki Kyoreijin is.

Most times, my slicer's path is kinda uncontrolable/not accurate, compared to using a lazer cannon. Mobs are moving, and I can swirve my aim a bit (to miss ) as well during a combo (like other melee combos). I toss it into a mob and just hope for the best. A lot of times you see red targets appear, but that doesn't mean by the time your slicer reaches them, they're still gonna be highlighted red to BE hit. While lazer cannons are much faster and a bit more reliable on which targets you're aiming at.

Chiki Kyoreijin doesn't have that problem. Laser Cannons don't have Chiki Kyoreijin http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif. Are you seeing a pattern?

I dunno. Maybe I suck at using slicers and are missing something about proper slice usage?

Not at all. You're just trying to argue that Slicers aren't broken because their regular attack is balanced O_o.

Mystil

Dec 3, 2007, 06:31 PM

On 2007-12-03 08:56, Fried wrote:
lol...how did the myth of slicers having rifle range come into this conversation?

XD I exaggerated a little, but it supports the point that it has good range on it(about length of handgun range, if a little longer).

But it IS powerful when JA'd and I've seen some sick numbers. Numbers I can't produce on a regular basis.

Sekani

Dec 3, 2007, 08:40 PM

Anyone who's seen Chikki at level 11+ can't tell me with a straight face that it's not broken. Even on acrofighters and fighgunners that PA can clear a room before I even notice that enemies have spawned. That is a problem.

I've had to tell even friends of mine to go easy on the slicers because it's so difficult to tag enemies with anyone spamming that PA.

I actually like slicers myself, but something seriously has to be done about Chikki.

Kerschweiser

Dec 3, 2007, 09:45 PM

Okay, I am sick and tired of the rifle/laser range argument. Have you ever looked at the regular attack at that range? 3/4 of the way a slicer blade veers waaay off target. Though the PA might not suffer this same trend it's much slower in comparison to a bullet and unless you're soloing, you're probably not going to hit squat.

You ever try hitting a speeding flier with a slicer? It's not a pretty picture. And even if it did connect I doubt it has the power to knock something out of the sky.

Which brings me to my next point. You can't FPS a slicer, so anything over head is off limits. (And considering my character's height, that's pretty much anything that's airborn.) I doubt we've seen the last of Shagreece and Tengoh-esque baddies to kill, and nothing BUT a rifle or bow class weapon has enough impact to knock it out of the sky.

Weapon/Art/TECH viability is dictated by situation. If the past has taught me anything, it's that in the near future there will be missions where slicers just can't cut it.

Kerschweiser

Dec 3, 2007, 09:57 PM

On 2007-12-03 17:40, Sekani wrote:
Even on acrofighters and fighgunners that PA can clear a room before I even notice that enemies have spawned.

Tell the 110s to get out of the C rank missions plz.

Even with a JA'd combo and level 4 shifta I can't decimate a room without 8 to 12 2nd-stage PAs, and I'm using the 11* version. That is ofcourse not counting the time I need to fall back and line up shots. Flinch plz? WTb? No? kkthxbye.

Carlo210

Dec 3, 2007, 10:08 PM

On 2007-12-03 12:24, Reipard wrote:

Agreed. I never denied any of it.

Yes, you did :. You specifically claimed Slicers weren't (viable) ranged weapons when they most definitely are. And more viable than most RANGERS' ranged weapons at that since their damage A: Completely outclasses those weapons and B: Nullifies the utility of their status effects, which you claim are the baseline for ranged weaponry.

I said slicers are not a replacement for ranged combat (guns) because guns have different strengths and weaknesses.
If you want to do uber damage 'period', from range or melee distance, being a ranger is a step in the wrong direction. If you think this isn't fair, then that's a different topic. The fact that chikki shoots far doesn't mean it's a friggin gun. By saying so, you are ignoring the many things that make up guns in PSU.
Yes, chikki kills shit faster. Yes, rangers don't do as much omgwtfbbw damage as meleers 'period', and they shouldn't. They have other uses and utilities that meleers do not have. It's a simple thing to wrap your head around. If you think chikki, being a strong ranged attack, replaces guns, then that isn't the fault of slicers, it's the fault of guns and how (un)useful their 'utility' aspects are in AoI.

And yes, chikki is overpowered in that it hits unlimited enemies (limit it to 4, please), but even if it was nerfed to 200% atp, it would still be a power-based weapon while guns are utility and support based weapons that do very good damage.
The fact that melee weapons can JA crit is proof enough that gunners are supposed to utilize their individual strengths as a gunner.
Of course Slicers are overpowered right now, but that's just because straight out insane damage is what is 'in' right now. Enemies die so fast that debuffs, status effects, and traps are almost useless. As a result, the utility that guns have are underplayed. Therefore, what we see as a result are rangers trying to become uber damage dealers and complaining when a ranged melee weapon outdamages their guns for 'some mysterious reason'.

So, while slicers are very strong, their problem isn't their range and the rangers that keep arguing that are forgetting what their class was designed to do. Like I said, if you feel your utility is underplayed in AoI (making weapons like slicers more attractive ranged choices), that's a different story.

[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-12-03 19:15 ]

ryvius

Dec 3, 2007, 10:09 PM

Arguing that slicers are bad where they're... well, bad, doesn't say much.

GreenArcher

Dec 3, 2007, 10:26 PM

PP is never an issue people.
10 Photon Charges, gg

Pengfishh

Dec 3, 2007, 10:39 PM

Boo to this topic getting longer posts.

Kerschweiser

Dec 3, 2007, 10:48 PM

On 2007-12-03 19:09, ryvius wrote:
Arguing that slicers are bad where they're... well, bad, doesn't say much.

And arguing that rifles are bad where they're bad does?

Carlo210

Dec 3, 2007, 10:49 PM

On 2007-12-03 19:39, Pengfishh wrote:
Boo to Carlo and his long posts.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

ryvius

Dec 3, 2007, 10:52 PM

Rifles are always bad

And I never said anything about rifles anyway

This is going to go on forever you all realize

Kerschweiser

Dec 3, 2007, 10:55 PM

Ofcourse. Getting any point across here is like discussing politics. People only see what they want to see and only the points that pertain to forwarding thier side are relevant. You didn't say anything about rifles. Many others are comparing slicers to rifles/lasers/FG arsenal.

Look at the whole picture before commenting on it.

Mystil

Dec 3, 2007, 11:55 PM

On 2007-12-03 19:39, Pengfishh wrote:
Boo to this topic getting longer posts.

Atleast he was nice enough to break them down into paragraphs and not the infamous Great Wall'O Text.

Pengfishh

Dec 3, 2007, 11:57 PM

I didn't say that, Carlo! Now you're fabricating evidence to prove your points that I didn't even read! Probably.

Aviendha

Dec 4, 2007, 12:31 AM

On 2007-12-03 20:57, Pengfishh wrote:
I didn't say that, Carlo! Now you're fabricating evidence to prove your points that I didn't even read! Probably.

It may be cheaper, but its never a good idea to outsource your posts to Kubara workers.

Remedy

Dec 4, 2007, 12:35 AM

On 2007-12-03 21:31, Aviendha wrote:
It may be cheaper, but its never a good idea to outsource your posts to Kubara workers.Why? They make good posts. Allegedly.

Carlo210

Dec 4, 2007, 01:09 AM

This thread is made of. Possibly.

* This post was brought to you by your intelligent friends at Kubara Products, creators of the Deljaban blade and it's informative description:

http://www.pso-world.com/psu/items/1075/4581-m.jpg

[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-12-03 22:14 ]

Sekani

Dec 4, 2007, 04:27 AM

On 2007-12-03 18:57, Kerschweiser wrote:

On 2007-12-03 17:40, Sekani wrote:
Even on acrofighters and fighgunners that PA can clear a room before I even notice that enemies have spawned.

Tell the 110s to get out of the C rank missions plz.

Even with a JA'd combo and level 4 shifta I can't decimate a room without 8 to 12 2nd-stage PAs, and I'm using the 11* version. That is ofcourse not counting the time I need to fall back and line up shots. Flinch plz? WTb? No? kkthxbye.

Well then, you're doing something wrong. Possibly. Are you a beast? Chikki does have a piss-poor accuracy modifier.

Kerschweiser

Dec 4, 2007, 04:58 AM

No, I'm a CAST. Maybe. Accuracy has never been an issue for me save for my Fighgunner-ing with doublesabers.

[ This Message was edited by: Kerschweiser on 2007-12-04 01:59 ]

Reipard

Dec 4, 2007, 07:51 AM

Yes, chikki kills shit faster. Yes, rangers don't do as much omgwtfbbw damage as meleers 'period', and they shouldn't. They have other uses and utilities that meleers do not have. It's a simple thing to wrap your head around. If you think chikki, being a strong ranged attack, replaces guns, then that isn't the fault of slicers, it's the fault of guns and how (un)useful their 'utility' aspects are in AoI.

And yet, making any of the gun's utility aspects useful requires fixing things that are not guns. How is this the problem of the guns themselves?

amtalx

Dec 4, 2007, 09:52 AM

On 2007-12-03 19:08, Carlo210 wrote:

I said slicers are not a replacement for ranged combat (guns) because guns have different strengths and weaknesses.
If you want to do uber damage 'period', from range or melee distance, being a ranger is a step in the wrong direction. If you think this isn't fair, then that's a different topic. The fact that chikki shoots far doesn't mean it's a friggin gun. By saying so, you are ignoring the many things that make up guns in PSU.

I still fail to understand why you can't separate guns from "ranged". Ranged != Guns. Ranged != SE. Ranged = Attacking from a distance. Mags attack from a distance --uh, oh it's not a gun, so it must not be ranged. Nonsense.

Yes, chikki kills shit faster. Yes, rangers don't do as much omgwtfbbw damage as meleers 'period', and they shouldn't. They have other uses and utilities that meleers do not have. It's a simple thing to wrap your head around. If you think chikki, being a strong ranged attack, replaces guns, then that isn't the fault of slicers, it's the fault of guns and how (un)useful their 'utility' aspects are in AoI.

Again, you need to separate guns from ranged. However, Slicers are the strongest ranged weapon in the game...by far. Ranged combat is supposed to have less overall DPS, but provide the safety of distance. Slicers have some of the best melee caliber damage, and at range. That's broken.

And yes, chikki is overpowered in that it hits unlimited enemies (limit it to 4, please), but even if it was nerfed to 200% atp, it would still be a power-based weapon while guns are utility and support based weapons that do very good damage.
The fact that melee weapons can JA crit is proof enough that gunners are supposed to utilize their individual strengths as a gunner.
Of course Slicers are overpowered right now, but that's just because straight out insane damage is what is 'in' right now. Enemies die so fast that debuffs, status effects, and traps are almost useless. As a result, the utility that guns have are underplayed. Therefore, what we see as a result are rangers trying to become uber damage dealers and complaining when a ranged melee weapon outdamages their guns for 'some mysterious reason'.

No...no, no, no. Rangers are not trying to be uber-damage dealers. I don't want more power. I'm very comfortable with my DPS and the speed at which I can kill relative to other classes, fighters included. With the exception of Slicers of course. If something is done about Chikki, that would be the biggest step ST has taken as far as balancing the classes. All the other weapons, JA and all, seem pretty much fine so far.

So, while slicers are very strong, their problem isn't their range and the rangers that keep arguing that are forgetting what their class was designed to do. Like I said, if you feel your utility is underplayed in AoI (making weapons like slicers more attractive ranged choices), that's a different story.

Slicers aren't single-handedly making SE pointless. It's the fact that enemies wet their pants as soon as more than a single person walks in a room. However, Slicers are single-handedly unbalancing ranged combat.

P.S. By "Slicers" I actually mean Chikki. The weapon itself is fine. It's just the PA that is too powerful. From what I've heard of the Ult skill, it is far more blanced, while still keeping enough power to make it an attractive weapon choice. Of course, no one uses it because Chikki is stronger.

-Ryuki-

Dec 4, 2007, 09:53 AM

They got nerfed as soon as we got AoI. At least, this is what was told by many, many people.

Even then, the weapon is still broken as hell.

Remedy

Dec 4, 2007, 10:02 AM

On 2007-12-04 06:52, amtalx wrote:
Slicers have some of the best melee caliber damage, and at range. That's broken.And Gi- technics have worse damage than the worst caliber melee damage, and at melee range. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

gryphonvii

Dec 4, 2007, 10:09 AM

I stopped using slicers because they were no longer fun to me, all single handed striking weapons have been put on hold until I find myself a deva-zashi or until easter when I will get a halp-serafi

Striker112

Dec 4, 2007, 10:37 AM

well i for one am glad, especially since i just made a 38% 11* http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Mystil

Dec 4, 2007, 10:48 AM

On 2007-12-04 07:02, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 06:52, amtalx wrote:
Slicers have some of the best melee caliber damage, and at range. That's broken.And Gi- technics have worse damage than the worst caliber melee damage, and at melee range. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

7* long sword isn't going to beat a gi-tech in damage. Atleast not yours. You should know better than that.

[ This Message was edited by: Mystil on 2007-12-04 07:49 ]

Sekani

Dec 4, 2007, 11:12 AM

On 2007-12-04 07:02, Remedy wrote:
And Gi- technics have worse damage than the worst caliber melee damage, and at melee range. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

This is not a thread about Gi- technics. Get out.

Kimil

Dec 4, 2007, 11:38 AM

On 2007-12-04 06:52, amtalx wrote:

Slicers are the strongest ranged weapon in the game...by far. Ranged combat is supposed to have less overall DPS, but provide the safety of distance. Slicers have some of the best melee caliber damage, and at range. That's broken.

P.S. By "Slicers" I actually mean Chikki. The weapon itself is fine. It's just the PA that is too powerful. From what I've heard of the Ult skill, it is far more blanced, while still keeping enough power to make it an attractive weapon choice. Of course, no one uses it because Chikki is stronger.

THIS sumerizes the problem with Slicers. This guy wins. Seriously.
Anyone who is still trying to say that Slicers (Chikki) are not broken. You lose

Remedy

Dec 4, 2007, 11:44 AM

On 2007-12-04 08:12, Sekani wrote:
This is not a thread about Gi- technics. Get out.The thread is about the lack of balance in the game, at its core, and this is just another example of that lack of balance.

*shrugs and plays my AF some more*

ljkkjlcm9

Dec 4, 2007, 11:50 AM

On 2007-12-04 08:44, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 08:12, Sekani wrote:
This is not a thread about Gi- technics. Get out.The thread is about the lack of balance in the game, at its core, and this is just another example of that lack of balance.

*shrugs and plays my AF some more*

I'm tried of you complaining about forces, and I'd just like to finally point one thing out, from the official site, on the description of classes:
Hunter
"A balanced type with High attack power, good for melee combat. Skilled in use of Striking weapons. A good fit for beginning players."
Ranger
"A ranged fighter that can defeat enemies and support allies from a distance. The type's High accuracy makes firearms an ideal fit. Suited for intermediate players."
Force
"A type geared toward TECHNICs use. Allows advanced players to play a variety of different roles from powerful attacks to healing and support."

Force is intended to be the most difficult class, so stop complaining that it is... someone had to say it

THE JACKEL

Turambar

Dec 4, 2007, 11:52 AM

Thats unbalanced, not broken. Rather different definitions for the two terms. That and I have yet to see any situation where what you said is true (unless its an extremely underleveld Gi-tech)

Remedy

Dec 4, 2007, 12:13 PM

On 2007-12-04 08:52, Turambar wrote:
Thats unbalanced, not broken. Rather different definitions for the two terms. That and I have yet to see any situation where what you said is true (unless its an extremely underleveld Gi-tech)Mine are all 31+, and the strongest one (Gidiga) only does about 1150 to monsters of its opposing element.

Remedy

Dec 4, 2007, 12:15 PM

On 2007-12-04 08:50, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
Force is intended to be the most difficult class, so stop complaining that it is... someone had to say itI'm not complaining whatsoever about the difficulty. I enjoy the difficulty of the class. What I do not enjoy is the fact that meleers who are LESS at risk on the front lines than I am do vastly more with their melee-range attacks than I do with my melee-range attacks, but still use the excuse of "were on the front lines we should do more were more at risk" as to why they do more.

If risk determined the damage of abilities, Gi- technics on newman FTs would be the most damaging abilities in the game.

amtalx

Dec 4, 2007, 12:27 PM

On 2007-12-04 09:15, Remedy wrote:
If risk determined the damage of abilities, Gi- technics on newman FTs would be the most damaging abilities in the game.

Not quite... The Gi- techs on my techer have a pretty decent range for an AoE spell. It's not like you have to be sharing a set of pants to nail a mob with Gi- spells. Melee weapons still require the closest proximity.

Remedy

Dec 4, 2007, 12:31 PM

To nail more than two or three enemies at a time, you have to be in the thick of things. Besides, most Arts are usually launched from a distance and close in by way of the attack. Plus, enemies that walk into a Gi- technic aren't affected. Enemies that walk into an Art-in-progress still get hit if the Art has enough hit slots left for it.

At this point, I've given up any real hope of any semblance of balance between techs/guns and melee. I'm just waiting for Meseta Fury to come out, then it'll truly be PSO Episode 5.

amtalx

Dec 4, 2007, 12:36 PM

On 2007-12-04 09:31, Remedy wrote:
To nail more than two or three enemies at a time, you have to be in the thick of things. Besides, most Arts are usually launched from a distance and close in by way of the attack. Plus, enemies that walk into a Gi- technic aren't affected. Enemies that walk into an Art-in-progress still get hit if the Art has enough hit slots left for it.

At this point, I've given up any real hope of any semblance of balance between techs/guns and melee. I'm just waiting for Meseta Fury to come out, then it'll truly be PSO Episode 5.

Well if you have to surround yourself with enemies before you use Gi- techs, I understand why you hate on techers so much. You are playing your class like a fighter.

Nukers are most effective when standing behind a meat sheild. That's what your fighters are for. Use them. Let the guy with all the HP and DFP draw the aggro and then start launching salvos.

panzer_unit

Dec 4, 2007, 12:55 PM

On 2007-12-04 09:13, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 08:52, Turambar wrote:
Thats unbalanced, not broken. Rather different definitions for the two terms. That and I have yet to see any situation where what you said is true (unless its an extremely underleveld Gi-tech)Mine are all 31+, and the strongest one (Gidiga) only does about 1150 to monsters of its opposing element.

... coming close to 7k per attack isn't bad for a PA, considering you can cast like 3-4 in the time it takes to do a critical Anga Jabroga you've got my Protranser's most comparable move beat.

Considering fT's huge variety of ranged attacks, SE, and support abilities... and how exactly are you entitled to MORE than that? You want to do Fortefighter damage AND all those ranged attacks AND support? Oh my god. You've been bawling FOR AGES IN EVERY THREAD ON THE BOARD because your attacks are only fairly balanced with probably the most comparable non-tech job around.

About front line survivability: play smarter. Use maybe some ranged attacks or dam-techs?

DraginHikari

Dec 4, 2007, 12:57 PM

Really other then if it wasn't for that specific PA, no one would compliant about the Slicers really. They're regular damage output isn't really that high as well as it is very awkard to aim with. I've seen the second Slicer PA and it doesn't seem to have nearly the heavy output that the store bought one does, which kinda of surprised me really.

Remedy

Dec 4, 2007, 12:59 PM

On 2007-12-04 09:36, amtalx wrote:
You are playing your class like a fighter.No, I am playing like a proper supporter - staying within range of my other five charges so that I can drop Giresta/Reverser/buffs as soon as they are required.

amtalx

Dec 4, 2007, 01:05 PM

On 2007-12-04 09:59, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 09:36, amtalx wrote:
You are playing your class like a fighter.No, I am playing like a proper supporter - staying within range of my other five charges so that I can drop Giresta/Reverser/buffs as soon as they are required.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif

What does support have to do with your complaint about Gi- techs? Besides, the range on support techs is huge.

Remedy

Dec 4, 2007, 01:07 PM

No, they're not. PSO's support techs had huge range. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif PSU's are significantly lacking - I could use a Striker of Chao/Principal's Gift Parasol. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

And it has to do with the fact that Gi- technics work best with my style of up-front, always-there support. *shrug*

ryvius

Dec 4, 2007, 01:07 PM

Would people stop pointing out that what we're actually arguing about is Chikki? It's the only PA right now; it IS slicers. Obviously no one is saying that a normal attack is broken.

panzer_unit

Dec 4, 2007, 01:09 PM

On 2007-12-04 09:59, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 09:36, amtalx wrote:
You are playing your class like a fighter.No, I am playing like a proper supporter - staying within range of my other five charges so that I can drop Giresta/Reverser/buffs as soon as they are required.

... fortunately that's not your job any more. Let someone better do that part and focus on attacking like you should.

Remedy

Dec 4, 2007, 01:11 PM

On 2007-12-04 10:09, panzer_unit wrote:
... fortunately that's not your job any more. Let someone better do that part and focus on attacking like you should.You know how many Acrotechers I've met with level 31 buffs/Resta/Reverser/Giresta since AotI came out?

Two.

In the absence of a qualified Acrotecher, the Fortecher's job is support. Since there is a critical shortage of qualified Acrotechers, I'll do my job, and I'll do it damn well.

But like I said, Remedy is practically on vacation until the next level cap increase. I'm having more fun with Amitie than I've had in the last month and a half combined.

amtalx

Dec 4, 2007, 01:19 PM

On 2007-12-04 10:07, Remedy wrote:
No, they're not. PSO's support techs had huge range. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif PSU's are significantly lacking - I could use a Striker of Chao/Principal's Gift Parasol. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

And it has to do with the fact that Gi- technics work best with my style of up-front, always-there support. *shrug*

I've never seen you play so I can't reason one way or the other why you have trouble hitting all your members with support techs. You don't need Marina's Bag (one of my favorites from PSO) to heal everyone.

Ummm...forces aren't an "up-front" class. Neither are gunners for the most part, and they have vastly superior HP. Choose to play your class how you will, but don't complain about the consequences should you take the risk.

panzer_unit

Dec 4, 2007, 01:44 PM

On 2007-12-04 10:11, Remedy wrote:
In the absence of a qualified Acrotecher, the Fortecher's job is support. Since there is a critical shortage of qualified Acrotechers, I'll do my job, and I'll do it damn well.

Funny... isn't it more like you're doing their job, and weren't you just saying that it's really hard and unpleasant? Probably because you don't have the stats or abilities to back it up.

It used to be a funny joke: nuke more and let the guntecher heal... but now it's pretty much dead on the money. They're much more suited to it. Even if there's nobody else around it's probably not in anybody's best interests for you to slack off from your primary abilities much in order to go play nursie. Health and buff items come in stacks of 20 for a reason.

Reipard

Dec 4, 2007, 02:17 PM

I am shocked and awed how this thread has become a thread about Fortetecher inferiority and technics.

panzer_unit

Dec 4, 2007, 02:20 PM

Every thread is.

amtalx

Dec 4, 2007, 02:21 PM

Remedy-jacked http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

chibiLegolas

Dec 4, 2007, 02:47 PM

On 2007-12-03 14:51, Reipard wrote:

Unless slicer happy folks are walking around with tons of photon charges or multiple slicers.

You make it sound like that's uncommon and that PCs and Slicers are hard to get.

I just assumed that the days of FiG's carrying nothing buy double sabers and getting owned by flying bosses (cause of a lack of guns) tought everyone NOT to keep carrying only one type of weapon class on a run. But I suppose not everyone was around to learn that much needed lesson. And carrying a palette FULL of slicers to PA spam seems unwise to me since they're only good for crowd control. Not to mention rude. Are they using slicers on the white dragon as well?!
>_>

Perhaps slicers seems over powered now cause most of us are running a slicer friendlier mission, White Dragon? Good # of small mob spawns in thin corridors ARE ideal for slicers afterall. But place slicers in those larger rooms with sleep lobby'n mobs + freeze trap happy chaos; can you STILL say slicers STILL own everything when in most cases (in my experience), you're setting yourself up cause of slow animation? Sorry. But I still think ppl are remembering those ideal corridor situations, but are negleting the rooms where slicers just can't cut it. (pun not intended).

How about placing slicers in lab runs or Crimson Beast? Wanna get stuck in place while you're trying to take on Megid lobby'n Jarbas? I know it maybe tempting for some since they're slow and you got multiple targets. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif'
How about buffed, jumping Vahras? They spawn in groups too.
Wanna use them against Vandas? I'm sure you'll get nothing but foie/diga in your face.

Like someone else said before, I'm sure there are future missions where it's just not smart to keep slicer spamm'n everything in sight. (Though I believe that holds true now. It's just not many runs them anymore).

If anything, ST should take a 2nd look at the damage output of Chikki and any Ultimate slicer PA we would get, and rebalance both accordingly.

[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-12-04 11:50 ]

Mewn

Dec 4, 2007, 03:01 PM

On 2007-12-04 11:17, Reipard wrote:
I am shocked and awed how this thread has become a thread about Fortetecher inferiority and technics.

All we need now is a diatribe on how Diadus are difficult to find, for a Psychu Wandu that won't actually be that much better than other rods.

beatrixkiddo

Dec 4, 2007, 03:03 PM

On 2007-12-04 11:47, chibiLegolas wrote:

On 2007-12-03 14:51, Reipard wrote:

Unless slicer happy folks are walking around with tons of photon charges or multiple slicers.

You make it sound like that's uncommon and that PCs and Slicers are hard to get.

I just assumed that the days of FiG's carrying nothing buy double sabers and getting owned by flying bosses (cause of a lack of guns) tought everyone NOT to keep carrying only one type of weapon class on a run. But I suppose not everyone was around to learn that much needed lesson. And carrying a palette FULL of slicers to PA spam seems unwise to me since they're only good for crowd control. Not to mention rude. Are they using slicers on the white dragon as well?!
>_>

Perhaps slicers seems over powered now cause most of us are running a slicer friendlier mission, White Dragon? Good # of small mob spawns in thin corridors ARE ideal for slicers afterall. But place slicers in those larger rooms with sleep lobby'n mobs + freeze trap happy chaos; can you STILL say slicers STILL own everything when in most cases (in my experience), you're setting yourself up cause of slow animation? Sorry. But I still think ppl are remembering those ideal corridor situations, but are negleting the rooms where slicers just can't cut it. (pun not intended).

How about placing slicers in lab runs or Crimson Beast? Wanna get stuck in place while you're trying to take on Megid lobby'n Jarbas? I know it maybe tempting for some since they're slow and you got multiple targets. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif'
How about buffed, jumping Vahras? They spawn in groups too.
Wanna use them against Vandas? I'm sure you'll get nothing but foie/diga in your face.

Like someone else said before, I'm sure there are future missions where it's just not smart to keep slicer spamm'n everything in sight. (Though I believe that holds true now. It's just not many runs them anymore).

If anything, ST should take a 2nd look at the damage output of Chikki and any Ultimate slicer PA we would get, and rebalance both accordingly.

[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-12-04 11:50 ]

Yes. This is exactly why people started to freak out about slicers on JP too. White Beast is a VERY slicer friendly mission, as is Sakura Blast. The rest of the new missions aren't that slicer friendly, and neither are most of the v1 missions.

panzer_unit

Dec 4, 2007, 03:08 PM

How do slicers handle firing up/down? A lot of the best chokepoints in many maps are stairs/ramps... a laser can go first-person to cover 'em.

DraginHikari

Dec 4, 2007, 03:10 PM

Really now adays, carrying a palette full of the same weapon as a meleer is more pointless then the days of full palette double sabers. (Which was ridculious anyway) The JA and PP regeneration has alter the way I play as a Figunner. Most of the better PAs are situational such as the fragment PAs for both Double Sabers (People may be able to spam Tornado Dance but it really knocks down it's usefulness that way) and Axes. It nows seems pointless to do nothing but spam PAs to begin with. Balance the normal attacks with the PA attacks at the right times help keep you from running out of PP in general with Melee weapons. That way I can save my PCs for the Twin Handgun I use when I need it the most.

chibiLegolas has probably the most solid point regarding the Slicer issue, so I don't think there any point saying more from me.

Esufer

Dec 4, 2007, 03:13 PM

On 2007-12-04 10:11, Remedy wrote:

In the absence of a qualified Acrotecher, the Fortecher's job is support. Since there is a critical shortage of qualified Acrotechers, I'll do my job, and I'll do it damn well.

But like I said, Remedy is practically on vacation until the next level cap increase. I'm having more fun with Amitie than I've had in the last month and a half combined.

Yes, Remedy! I agree! Chikki could use adjusting! Thanks to your amazingly on-topic posts, my eyes have finally been opened to the truth.
Thanks for posting.
It's people like you that keep the world going round! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Ryoki

Dec 4, 2007, 03:55 PM

On 2007-12-04 11:20, panzer_unit wrote:
Every thread is.

WOOSH!

Don't ask what it means, damnit.

Kimil

Dec 4, 2007, 04:02 PM

On 2007-12-04 12:55, Ryoki wrote:

On 2007-12-04 11:20, panzer_unit wrote:
Every thread is.

WOOSH!

Don't ask what it means, damnit.

What does it mean? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-12-04 13:02 ]

imfanboy

Dec 4, 2007, 04:53 PM

OK.

Slicer PA has 3 problems:

1) It hits an infinite number of enemies. I've hit entire mobs of 7+, killed the closest, then watched as more monsters spawned far away and were hit as well.

2) It does a HUGE amount of damage. In 5 seconds with a 20-30% slicer (beast female fortefighter), it deals 6500 damage.

3) It has a HUGE and WIDE range. I've hit boxes and mobs that were BEYOND handgun range with the slicer. Whether it's as long as a rifle is debatable, as I can't easily swap back and forth between them while playing my FF.

Any one of these is no problem at all. Jabroga, Majarra, or Gravity Break can deal equivalent (or greater) damage. Laser Cannons have about the same range, even though it's far less width. Gi-technics hit up to 6 enemies, and Tornado Break hits 4 all the way through its combo.

The problem is that it has all three.

Oh, and it has a wider area of effect around your body. I'd say that it hits a 270 degree arc near your body; I've hit enemies with it that were clearly rear and to the left of me.

It's a sign of how strong the slicer is that the Fortefighter has become the BEST solo class, period. Dus Majarra and the Slicer is all you need for virtually any situation, with maybe a handgun for anything that can fly out of your reach - perfect to occupy that empty right hand! I've cleared Awakened Beast S solo with an Srank in under 20 minutes - and that is hardly a 'slicer' friendly mission. It's more slicer neutral: some good spawns, but many of them you have to manipulate by walking around and luring enemies closer.

BTW, slicers hit fliers as long as they're near the ground; if they fly up then it can't reach them. But that's what handguns are for, eh?

[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-12-04 13:54 ]