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View Full Version : GTs should get whips, and fGs should get S rank shadoogs



SolomonGrundy
Dec 3, 2007, 09:50 PM
This means GTs should lose S rank shadoogs

agree?

Also, AFs should not get cards, and ATs should not get machine guns.

agree?

CelestialBlade
Dec 3, 2007, 10:45 PM
I'd sacrifice S-rank Shadoogs for A-rank Whips, sure. I distinctly remember pre-AoI us being able to use A-rank Whips. Keep the level 10 Skill cap, I'd just like another melee weapon.

I'd rather trade them for S-rank Cards, but I take what I can get.

Xaeris
Dec 3, 2007, 11:01 PM
I have no opinion on the first one. The second one I give a very hearty "nay" too. Shadoogs are great and all, but sometimes you need an old fashioned sidearm to get the job done (e.g, Alterazgohg in the air) and a handgun just doesn't cut it.

Rizen
Dec 3, 2007, 11:02 PM
Nope I don't agree. GTs are one of the only classes that can actually use Shadoogs to its fulliest. GTs should not get whips because they aren't meant for melee, even with the fact that Whips were made for techers. GT already has a wipe variety of weapons to choose from, no need to add something.

I understand what you mean about mechgun and cards, but they are fine as is for now.

Pillan
Dec 3, 2007, 11:21 PM
Neither GT nor fG really needs Shadoogs, but they are a nice addition. GT really doesn't need whips all that much with their shotgun access.

The main things I would change are fF's slicer access and nerfing both slicer skills to modifiers on par with barta and megid. Everything else in the game is pretty much fine and balanced.

CelestialBlade
Dec 3, 2007, 11:23 PM
I kinda disagree with GTs being able to fully utilize Shadoogs, I'd say Acrofighters utilize them way better. This has nothing to do with the weapon itself, what it does, or how useful it is. It's the fact that Shadoogs are supplement weapons, and you can only put them on your offhand. Any GT weapon you might want to supplement is either two-handed or off-hand. This leaves you to pair it with a Wand (healing, I'd rather have a Crossbow or a Card) or a one-handed melee weapon (and you just shot down melee on GTs).

I just don't know what to pair them with, if I did they'd be extremely useful.

Magus_84
Dec 4, 2007, 12:34 AM
I'd love to have whips on GT. Like Typheros, I have trouble figuring out what to pair Shadoogs with.

Nyreal
Dec 4, 2007, 12:52 AM
Well. I'd say that a Resta Wand would make a nice partner. That way you can run around and heal with the added support of some cover fire. This will be even more pronounced with S Rank shadoogs, and their lasers.

But otherwise... Shadoogs really are geared more towards the Melee classes, IMO.

Hrith
Dec 4, 2007, 12:54 AM
Fortegunner do not have a remote use for S grade shadoogs.

The only thing a Fortegunner could use is S grade crossbows. Anything esle would not make us stronger.

MSAksion
Dec 4, 2007, 04:04 AM
Status 3 Crossbow + Status 4 WHIP = would be AWESOME... ;_;

Also i think that the SLICER should be a GT weapon. With a left hand crossbow a right hand SLICER would be perfect =3

Pillan
Dec 4, 2007, 06:46 AM
Whips currently max at SE 2. The shock and silence whip are not SE 4.

CelestialBlade
Dec 4, 2007, 07:03 AM
On 2007-12-03 21:52, Nyreal wrote:
Well. I'd say that a Resta Wand would make a nice partner. That way you can run around and heal with the added support of some cover fire. This will be even more pronounced with S Rank shadoogs, and their lasers.

But otherwise... Shadoogs really are geared more towards the Melee classes, IMO.

Problem with the Healing wand is that you're never on it for very long, and Shadoogs are not a primary offensive weapon. Crossbow or Card is much better paired with a Healing wand.

Shadoogs are made entirely for melee weapons, so I'd easily trade our S-ranks for some S-rank Cards.

Kion
Dec 4, 2007, 01:07 PM
I don't really agree with anything by the OP. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

GT doens't need whips, nor do i think they would use them very effectively. The level 10 skill means that they wouldn't benefit from the skill's ATP mod, and overall it really wouldn't do much damage. Sure it could keep enemies in a small vicinity pinned down with the standard combo, but as all guns have knockback now, they can do the same effect more damaging with mechguns or twin handguns. Also with GT as a mobile gunner, standing in one place really doesn't suit how they're played normally.

Fighgunners could use a S rank randged weapon, but not shadoogs. The class has a low TP mod and is generally geared towards two handed melee weapons. With one hand they already have an advange with level 30 bullets on crossbows and mechs to pair with sabers and daggers, I don't see what a tech based weapon could benefit the class.

And AF is a ne handed weapon class. The whole idea is that they have access to all one handed weapons to accell in all of them and miss and match. What's wrong about them getting cards? Should they all be forced to use handguns, when pretty much every class has S rank handguns and refuses to use them?

And Acrotecher is a support class. Mechgun bullets get knockback so having A rank mechguns for stunlock as a support is well with in their means. They only get A rank and limited bullets, so it's not for damage; just support.

Kion
Dec 4, 2007, 01:12 PM
And for shadoog usage on GT, i recomend pairing it with daggers for bullet resistant enemies. You can let the shadoog take care of applying burn, or freeze while you goto work with hikai.

And Acrofighter defintely uses shaddogs to their fullest. AF can melee while the shadoog continually shoots, so it's like using a handgun and melee weapon at the same time with SE + major damage on slicers. I highly recomend soi tech charge for any acrofighter as it gives a massive TP boost and doesn't carry the downside of PP consumption which techer's suffer from equiping it.

LanVanDam13
Dec 4, 2007, 02:09 PM
horrible how Fortegunner and GT get shadoog wtf am i gonna use it for as a gunner i they are wonderful for fighters but not gunners stupid as hell fortegunner should get srank twin guns lol

CelestialBlade
Dec 4, 2007, 02:21 PM
Hmm, Shadoog with a Dagger....guess it's about the best we can do.

While we're on it, is there a better Dagger PA for GTs than Buten? I mainly use mine on large monsters with multiple hitboxes.

LanVanDam13
Dec 4, 2007, 02:31 PM
GT get level 10 skills

Pillan
Dec 4, 2007, 02:35 PM
On 2007-12-04 11:21, Typheros wrote:
While we're on it, is there a better Dagger PA for GTs than Buten? I mainly use mine on large monsters with multiple hitboxes.


Hikai is the same thing, but faster and more powerful for slightly more PP.

CelestialBlade
Dec 4, 2007, 02:50 PM
On 2007-12-04 11:35, Pillan wrote:

On 2007-12-04 11:21, Typheros wrote:
While we're on it, is there a better Dagger PA for GTs than Buten? I mainly use mine on large monsters with multiple hitboxes.

Hikai is the same thing, but faster and more powerful for slightly more PP.

Interesting, just might pick it up and give it a try.

Aviendha
Dec 4, 2007, 02:55 PM
On 2007-12-04 11:50, Typheros wrote:

On 2007-12-04 11:35, Pillan wrote:

On 2007-12-04 11:21, Typheros wrote:
While we're on it, is there a better Dagger PA for GTs than Buten? I mainly use mine on large monsters with multiple hitboxes.

Hikai is the same thing, but faster and more powerful for slightly more PP.

Interesting, just might pick it up and give it a try.


Since you only get the first part, Hikai will always be better for you than Buten.

GT is better off using Xbow/Card/Mechgun + Wand than Shadoog + Wand because they're really not going to have that wand out all day, and switching back and forth will result in much more damage than that Shadoog can do.

Taking cards from AF would leave no worthwhile left-hand options except shadoogs. Handguns suck. If I want damage, I'll use cards. If I want to DoT something, I'll use traps. On bosses I have Twin Pistols. Handguns have no use on AF, ever.

chibiLegolas
Dec 4, 2007, 04:25 PM
Cards on a AF just FEELS odd to me. Agree, AF needs something else on their offhand other than Shadoog, but cards? IMO, cards are way too slow and totally doesn't fit their playstyle. I thought mechguns fit them perfectly. But would be that much closer to FiG. So I'm unsure on how to improve it. But can any AF out there agree with me? After using all your quick pace melee gear, and sometimes you need to tag or attack through bullets, but cards just seem to break up your speed and style so much. If just feels odd to me.
At the moment, I'm playing my FiG just like an AF exept I replace my fans with mechguns. I just wish AF could use mechs so I can benefit from their natural melee speed increase.

As for GT, I'd love it if GT gets whips instead of S shadoog. But I also totally see why we don't get them.
SE3 ice crossbow + SE2 dark whip = overbalanced.
Unless missing Teir 2 whips is a great disadvantage. But don't forget, IF whips where ever accessable to GT, it's not for it's melee damage. But for it's SE (like our guns of the old days).
But it DOES seem odd that FT gets them, and GT's can't.

But IMO, I'd trade in S rank shadoog to get S rank cards.
It's apparant that ST wants GT's to equip their healing wands most of the time.

Soukosa
Dec 4, 2007, 05:08 PM
FG needs S grade shadoogs for what? Thinking good and hard I could only find one use for the weapon itself and that use wasn't really enough to warrant even taking one.

GT needs whips for what? Lv 10 skills doesn't mean it'll do much damage (not that they deal much damage anyways). They only do lv 2 SEs which is lower than what most guns do and what you can do with a shadoog.

GT has a very good use for shadoogs with techs. At first I used them along side techs with bullet resistant enemies (which usually aren't tech resistant). Later on, I've found there's alot of uses for techs on GT and shadoogs (namely S grade ones) work beautifully along side them, especially the earth one.

Why can't AF have cards? Why are you all so obsessed with that? It can't hurt to give a non force job cards, especially with one of the bullets being worthless on the force type jobs. GT doesn't need S grade cards either. There's so many better things GT can use, including S grade shadoogs.

CelestialBlade
Dec 4, 2007, 07:06 PM
Got Hikai today, and yes, this is the best Dagger PA for GTs hands down.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 4, 2007, 09:04 PM
to explain myself:

GT's should get whips - they are a force-type, and whips are a force weapon. Fortetechers get them, and no one complains.

regarding thier skills - who cares if it's only level 10 - they ATP should is on par with AT, and no one says ATs should not have whips!!

Fortegunners get level 20 skills. they use melee weapons but are ranged experts. I think giving them shadoogs drives home the ranged aspect of this job.

AF with cards feels wrong. I think pistols would be fine. Remember AFs can only use damaging traps. level 30 bullets gives them a reason to inflict L3 freeze, confuse, shock, with pistols.

Giving machine guns to AT is just silly. they have poor ATP, *and* poor bullet levels. What could they possibly use them for? Maybe virus in an all-light area? they already have twin pistols, pistol, and cards (and shadoogs - so broken).





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-12-05 08:12 ]</font>

Bitey
Dec 4, 2007, 09:36 PM
Problem with the Healing wand is that you're never on it for very long, and Shadoogs are not a primary offensive weapon. Crossbow or Card is much better paired with a Healing wand.

I am sorry, but I find it odd that every wand on a GT palate is not a healing wand, except for the buff wand of course. What else would you put on a GT wand other than buffs, Resta/Giresta, Reverser, and Zalure? And considering that GT have the fastest recovery speeds out of all of the support techers and that they are the best with off handed weapons, a GT should try to stay with a wand that has Resta/Giresta on it because that would make them the fastest healers in the game.

I have 4 off hand weapons on my GT palate and all of them are paired with a wand that has Giresta and one other technique out of a Reverser or Zalure variation. In my opinion, aside from those three techniques, it pointless to use any other techniques on an off hand wand for a GT (just consider Giresta and resta the same thaning, please).

Shadow_Wing
Dec 5, 2007, 04:02 AM
Ah.... (Insert how having healing in every slot is over kill argument) been over this with ATs. I would assume the same reasoning to why GT would not have a healing wand in every off hand.

fG having shadoogs? I'll pass ty, there are numerous better offhand weapons than shadoogs for fG, xbow and mechguns comes to mind, when using a saber or dagger (IF I get around to using one that is). fGs have very little use for the little guys really, and our already not so great TP doesn't help either.

And as an AT, I never understood why we did get mechguns <<, shadoog/madoog are much better offhand to our melee weapons.

Para
Dec 5, 2007, 12:40 PM
GTs are fine they way they are but I wouldn't mind whips just to melee for fun from time to time.

Kylie
Dec 5, 2007, 01:24 PM
I don't think GT should gets whips because whips are combat and TECH. GT isn't combat at all, and it's hardly TECH. The only reason FT gets whips is because they're TECH enough to justify using them. GT couldn't justify getting a whip, so they don't need it. FG and shadoog... Doesn't bother me. Honestly, it makes more sense to me than WT getting shadoogs, which confused me as soon as I logged on AotI. Not that I'm complaining about my little tag bot. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

CelestialBlade
Dec 5, 2007, 02:31 PM
On 2007-12-05 10:24, Lorelei wrote:
I don't think GT should gets whips because whips are combat and TECH. GT isn't combat at all, and it's hardly TECH. The only reason FT gets whips is because they're TECH enough to justify using them. GT couldn't justify getting a whip, so they don't need it. FG and shadoog... Doesn't bother me. Honestly, it makes more sense to me than WT getting shadoogs, which confused me as soon as I logged on AotI. Not that I'm complaining about my little tag bot. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

Eh, you'd be amazed how much GTs can utilize melee.

Xaeris
Dec 5, 2007, 02:43 PM
On 2007-12-04 13:25, chibiLegolas wrote:
Cards on a AF just FEELS odd to me. Agree, AF needs something else on their offhand other than Shadoog, but cards? IMO, cards are way too slow and totally doesn't fit their playstyle. I thought mechguns fit them perfectly. But would be that much closer to FiG. So I'm unsure on how to improve it. But can any AF out there agree with me? After using all your quick pace melee gear, and sometimes you need to tag or attack through bullets, but cards just seem to break up your speed and style so much. If just feels odd to me.
At the moment, I'm playing my FiG just like an AF exept I replace my fans with mechguns. I just wish AF could use mechs so I can benefit from their natural melee speed increase.



I disagree. I think that cards, after shadoogs, are the best ranged option for acrofighter. The type is made for quick, mobile combat. A card's projectiles might have some flight time, but the key thing is that the throw itself is rather quick compared to the mechgun's startup and that you don't really need to aim the thing.

To use a mechgun off the cuff, you have to be lined up with the enemy, wait for the clip to get going, then remain in the enemy's line for as long as you want to keep shooting. No problem to be sure, but the issue here is that more of a card's hits will land while engaging in evasive maneuvers than a mechgun's will.

LS_Aksion
Dec 5, 2007, 03:00 PM
Intresting topic going on here.
In my opinion: I feel GT should have been close to resembling PSO Rangers but with upgrades.

I say give the GT at least the: [S] Slicer, [A] whip, [S] Kikami, [A] Shadog [A] Maddog. It'll be more satisfying & unique to show off!

[A] rank whip shadog madog to GT, just like how WT gained [A] Sword for some crazy reason! hehe

CelestialBlade
Dec 5, 2007, 04:31 PM
I disagree with giving GTs Slicers, Whips would be more fitting (and not at S-rank). S-rank Cards I agree with, we make the best use out of Cards versus any other class anyway.

I do know what you mean about GTs resembling PSO Rangers, the entire reason I started one was because I loved RAmarls so much. Thanks to that big class update, we really are RAmarls now, and I love it.

Akaimizu
Dec 7, 2007, 02:44 PM
The class update was big. I know people usually want stuff for GTs, we know that the only decent Multi-monster hitting weapon for GTs is still traps. Those DoT traps are well missing from the Acrotecher, and if you're used to using them; you feel like you lost a lot with it.

However, Acrotechers melee makes the GTs look real bad. Tell me any possible way for a GT to be able to put 3000+ points of direct damage on anything in the game like the Acros can do with Whips and multi-hit-location monsters like Druas in Moatoob. I haven't seen anything like that outside of DoT status effects, which is not direct damage, but a tick damage based on landing the SE. Outside of that, they are good for a decent amount of add-on damage, but not damage dealers themselves.

However, getting the level 30 support spells is the MAIN thing they needed to become precisely as their description said they were. If anything makes me content on the class, it is that thing alone. The higher buffs and heals definitely are what the class needed so that the line of saying (they are primarily a support class (from SEGA none-the-less) is no longer a running joke. Yeah, I supported the heck out of groups with the GT, even before the expansion. Worked my litteral Butt off in order to do it. If anything is a PSU hard mode, just play the big party supporter as a GT pre-expansion. You can do it, but just about every other support class had an easier time performing that job, and everybody's initial impression of your abilities takes a big effort to change their minds.

Still, the increased support spells puts a true period on the actual intended reason of the class, and also (as a side-effect) makes them a whole heck of a lot easier to solo than before. To tell the truth, I'm not so much worried about the increased Solo ability, since alone it can make it seem like we get a *easy-mode* switch the moment our support techs reach 21+. However, as a party function, getting the much-needed power and range really helps a heck of a lot since the GT class is supposed to be mobile, but also to keep foes at a distance. We're meant to dodge, but at a distance where we can dodge, that close ranged activity (like what's needed to heal another player with 10-locked techs) is like throwing up a *kill-me* flag on a GT. It's equivalent to saying, "Here's some techs for you, but most of you wont use these in battle. That is, unless you're really skilled to find those (rare than any other techer) opportunities to use em, and pray that you don't lag one single bit.

Now, at the time, that also put a major reliance on using either Mech Guns or Twin Handguns for monster distraction. More than enough, in the past, saving someone's life meant first distracting said monster so you can get in range to save them. Otherwise (like Monty Python's Bishop) you're always a little too late.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-12-07 12:00 ]</font>

Gen2000
Dec 7, 2007, 05:36 PM
Using Whips on Druas or any of those big four-legged enemies is fail and I laugh everytime I see people get knocked down before even completing the combo resulting in pitiful damage overall. The current whip PA is nice but not on everything people. JA'd Shunbu or even Rising Strike does much better consistent damage on targets with multiple hit boxes since it knocks em on their ass allowing you to easily repeat the damage.

As a Newman AT I can easily do around 3000 damage with just Combo 1 of a JA'd Shunbu and 4-5k on a JA'd Combo 2, quicker than trying to rack up damage with the slow ass whip PA. I just assume a GT could easily do better since my GT alts have much better base ATP. I was doing that kind damage pre-AoI with Buten. You can melee with GT easily if need be, even easier now with JA'd damage boost.

Now GT could use whips for dragon/falkis type bosses since they lack a powerful type "hax type" weapon and PA comparable to Durenga/Jaboraga when it comes time to kill a boss within 30 seconds, but really they need Combo 2 first if anything.

Srank Shadoogs are useless for fGs, the Bullets are better for the targets a fG would actually use a single handed melee weapon on. Laser Shadoogs are for assisting with Slicer spam mainly.

Shadow_Wing
Dec 7, 2007, 05:56 PM
Don't need to just attack the Whip PA on the big guys, it still ends up with more damage overall <<;

Gen2000
Dec 7, 2007, 07:01 PM
If you don't get smacked down to the ground or canceled which seems to be the case a majority of the time then it's not damaging faster than Shunbu spam.

Shadow_Wing
Dec 7, 2007, 07:40 PM
But that's the thing, with an AT speed, it gets down before it smacks u down. My shunbu on the other hand fails in comparison to my whip in damage <<; I do more damage than it in a single swing than the entire Shunbu PA.... Well maybe not that bad, but it gets close in a single swing <<;



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-07 16:42 ]</font>

Hrith
Dec 7, 2007, 09:08 PM
Compare them at the same level, lol, Shunbu is a lot more powerful, and one of the fastest skills in the game http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Pillan
Dec 7, 2007, 09:16 PM
Shunbu is around 240% x 4 + 380% x 2 in the same time as the 180% x 24 of the second move of Grudda (those are the level 30 stats). Yeah, Shunbu can do more damage if you're getting interrupted a lot, you don't have 3+ targets, or your ATP or element percent sucks, but otherwise Grudda is a lot more damage.

EDIT:

Sorry, Shunbu is around the time of 3 of those attacks, so you'd need 4+ targets in the whip, but, yeah, the difference is still pretty large when you're in an optimal whipping situation.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-12-07 18:19 ]</font>

Shadow_Wing
Dec 7, 2007, 09:36 PM
And shunbu happens to be the worse dagger skill out of the three http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Shiro_Ryuu
Dec 7, 2007, 10:02 PM
IMO a GT w/ a S Slicer wouldn't fit too well since Slicers are Hunter weapons. FI with S Slicers may be ok though, and FG having S Shadoog wouldn't really make sense since like some people here say, Shadoogs are mostly a supplemental weapon, and FG would be better off using a Xbow, Mechgun, or even a Pistol.

Speaking of Shunbu, I haven't really touched that PA since I didn't like its startup time, but at the same time, JA'ing w/ Hikai was pretty slow as a FI, but not so much as an AF, so maybe I'll get to lving this PA w/ my AF, especially since I have Hikai and Buten maxed out. And I like AF with Cards, perfect for a lazy ranger like me.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 8, 2007, 04:26 AM
shunbu sucks donkey balls. It's only redeeming value was that it was cheap on pp, but since normal attacks started regening pp, even that's out the window.

in any event, regardless of whether whips get interupted a lot, or not, they ARE a force weapon, and GTs should get them, logically.


off topic: hating GTs lack of anti boss weapons.

Gen2000
Dec 8, 2007, 04:58 AM
Lol, yes Shunbu is horrible with it's high ATP mod and quick execution. I'll just continue to kill big guys faster with my lower element Grm Dagger than my Vish <whatever> of a much higher element %. It's like you people haven't used a 11+ Shunbu before or something.

Hrith
Dec 8, 2007, 06:20 AM
Shunbu is a lot more powerful, Pillan, a lot more.

You have not taken into consideration the time it takes to execute Shunbu or Grudda.

Shunbu is over twice as powerful as Grudda.


On 2007-12-07 18:36, Shadow_Wing wrote:
And shunbu happens to be the worse dagger skill out of the threeShunbu is faster than Buten, more powerful than Buten, costs less PP than Buten, is a lot less likely to be interrupted than Buten.


On 2007-12-08 01:26, SolomonGrundy wrote:
shunbu sucks donkey balls. It's only redeeming value was that it was cheap on pp, but since normal attacks started regening pp, even that's out the window.Another person talking about things they do not know, that really makes you sound stupid, you know. At least try things before talking.

And "regular attacks regenerate PP" is not an argument. Using regular attacks is only a way to considerably lower your damage output, nothing else.

Shadow_Wing
Dec 8, 2007, 08:05 AM
Shunbu is the worse for more reasons than just damage, and it's like Hikai doesn't exist too <<. Buten is also superior to Shunbu for reasons other than damage, which for the same reason is more better than Hikai for general use. My current pallet for AT is the following:

Shadoog/Saber
Shadoog/Dagger
Shadoog/Whip
Madoog/Wand
Madoog/Wand
Twin Handgun

It's a balanced pallet, where I'm prepared for even the most unexpected situations, and in my case, I don't have room to put in the situational Shunbu in there, unless u want me to drop my able to maneuver around the battlefield and be prone to attacks due to Shunbu's lack of movement. It's an extremely limiting PA and which kills the PA overall and the versatility of both Hikai and Buten are down right makes both much better than Shunbu. Additionally the range of Shunbu doesn't give it any points either.

Personally, I don't like being called an idiot, directly or indirectly, just cause you can't see the uses of PAs outside of OMGF BIG NUMBERS.

Additionally, it still stands, Whips do more overall in the end. As I like to point out, Whip aren't THAT slow.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-08 05:08 ]</font>

Akaimizu
Dec 8, 2007, 09:27 AM
"Like you people haven't used a 11+ Shunbu before or something. "

Gun techers. They don't get that kind of use. That is, unless this discussion is shifted off of that class, for now. They, unless I'm mistaken, still can't use Melee beyond 10. So yes, even if a GT got whips, they'll still not so great for its use until they get access to 11+ melee. It's the 11+ whip PA that makes it killer. eg. Over 3000+ direct dmg easily on a Drua monster in just the 2nd PA combo alone.

As for GTs, to tell the truth, their Anti-boss weapon is basically stuff like their Twin Handguns and/or rifles with high elemental percentage. And while you need to hit the non-bullet resistant parts, it still does some pretty good consistant damage, across the board.

Pretty much the Bread and Butter of the class, for bosses. It's also one of the fringe benefits I got when I became the first ever guardian to make the attempt to master all Twin Handgun bullets. In general, we can match the Fortetecher damage speed, until.......well... they get cheesy and get the Quick armor attachment to speed up their techs. (Too bad we don't get an equivalent as gunners. That aspect is normally balanced by high elemental status effect chances...but only for normal monsters. Bosses are out of that equation.) Still, it's not bad, and the contribution to damage is significant. Most still go down faster when our shots are true.

Still, if I was asking for straight damage over time advantages, I'd play a Fortetecher...but for me, that's just not as fun or rewarding. Maybe it's because I overplayed forces in the past, and I'm still enjoying my sabbatical from them.

Pillan
Dec 8, 2007, 11:35 AM
On 2007-12-08 03:20, Hrith wrote:
You have not taken into consideration the time it takes to execute Shunbu or Grudda.



On 2007-12-07 18:16, Pillan wrote:
Sorry, Shunbu is around the time of 3 of those attacks, so you'd need 4+ targets in the whip, but, yeah, the difference is still pretty large when you're in an optimal whipping situation.


But, anyway, Shunbu 30 is 240% x 4 + 380% x 2 and you can get somewhere between 2 and 3 of those in the same time as the full 140 x 18 + 180 x 24 of the full Grudda. But, anyway, still leaves us in the exact same “you need 4+ targets for whips to be great” that we were at before.

And, yeah, now that everything flinches, it’s really hard to get interrupted unless you’re lagging or fighting Deljaban. Additionally, if you’ve got a high percentage armor, you can reduce the damage to under 5% so only the attacks that throw you around cause you to flinch at all (no longer sending you flying, of course; It works as a Beast or Cast with 40+% armor, but I don’t know about human or Newman). So the main advantage of Shunbu/Rising Strike is destroyed if you're good.

Hrith
Dec 8, 2007, 12:26 PM
Flinch does not affect large monsters, and they cancel like crazy.

Try soloing, too, even with two NPCs, Go Vahra can very easily cancel you. They gave even small monsters like Sageeta or Go Bajilla stun attacks so that what you just said is no longer true, even if you take 5 damage, the attack will stun you.

The main advantage of Shunbu or Rising Strike is that they deal very high damage, and very fast.

Long, slow PAs like Grudda or Buten will never compare to the new Shunbu or Rising Strike.
Shunbu is not only faster, it deals more damage, too.

On AT, even if Shunbu Lv20 beats Grudda Lv20, I'd use whips because it's the only class that can use S grade whips >_>

On WT, Shunbu Lv30 destroys Grudda Lv30 + WT can use S grade daggers and cannot use S grade whips = clear win.

Pillan
Dec 8, 2007, 12:52 PM
Actually, I've been soloing in Unsafe Passage S2 a lot for skill leveling. The Deljaban AI has been changed so the only attack they use is the one where they throw both claws forward, causing you to flinch. However, I usually cancel their attack with my own because all my attacks cause them to flinch faster than theirs go off. Then, on the rare occasion they don't use a flinching attack, it doesn't effect the combo. So, yeah, it does less damage than it would if it was free of cancels, but it still ends up doing more than a defensive skill (besides Spiral Dance and Anga Durenga, of course).

EDIT:

Why are we comparing it on solo anyway? I mean, think about how often you flince in a party and then argue to me the importance of a crowd control skill like Shunbu.

As for S ranks, well, good luck on your hunt for a 40+% 15 star Kubara dagger right now and then grinding it to 10 because that's the only way a WT with S daggers can outdamage an A whip in a whip appropriate situation. Of course, by the time you get one, your ATP will be around, oh, twice as much as it is now, so any rank advantage the weapon would have gained will be meaningless.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-12-08 10:22 ]</font>

drizzle
Dec 8, 2007, 12:54 PM
Dunno if you tried level 30 Grudda, but using Shunbu seems so slow compared to PAs like Grudda (vs groups) or Renzan (vs singles). De Ragan S2 solo takes me only 3-4 minutes now http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

Hrith
Dec 8, 2007, 01:28 PM
I kill it in 49 seconds http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif (with Boma Riga on my Fortegunner, lol).

Shunbu is one ofthe shortest PAs, hence one of the fastest.
Lots of damage in little time = no drawback.
The longer a move lasts, the more likely it is to miss or get canceled, etc.

I really cannot see any use for Buten, now.

Grudda is a very good skill, simply because it's not meant for damage, it's meant for applying SEs to lots of things, and that it does decently well.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 8, 2007, 05:35 PM
On 2007-12-08 10:28, Hrith wrote:

Shunbu is faster than Buten, more powerful than Buten, costs less PP than Buten, is a lot less likely to be interrupted than Buten.



1st off we were talking about GTs, who never get the second move of shunbu, but even if we consider the second move:

shunbu and buten do different things...you cannot compare them. Shunbu has far fewer hits than Buten - I use buten on things like polty/ageeta/bardia (low threat swarmers). When I have a large number of targets, buten is better

I compare shunbu to rising strike (because they are both jugglers) and compared to rising strike, shunbu sucks. Rising strike is faster, has a high damage modifier, and more hits. Shunbu is cheaper, but like I said, a the pp regen for regular attacks makes that non-issue.





Another person talking about things they do not know, that really makes you sound stupid, you know. At least try things before talking.

my main is a fortefighter, and Shunbu is/was one of his first skills. Don't try and tell me what I do or do not know. Stupid is comparing a juggler to a non-juggler.

MSAksion
Dec 8, 2007, 06:28 PM
All i know is that shunbu can knock over keg nodd while my guns aren't getting the job done. That alone makes shunbu better than rising strike. It also hits 2 targets for 2 hits doing 300~400 x 4 hits to a keg nodd with a dark dark straal (stupid name sega)

As for Guntechers - i'd rather see S rank Card fans than anything else. The Bow i put that away in favor of more Crossbows. Since Sega made the game EASY you dont even need status 4 anymore >_> taking away Rangers with Rifles and bows true need and just letting everyone resort to dual pistols and Crossbows for most status infecting.

And GT with Whip - nice idea actually... tho keep the melee to 10. I want GT to focus on guns not melee AND lvl 30 FORTETECHER style TECHS.

Hrith
Dec 9, 2007, 10:29 AM
Actually, Solomon, on GTs, Buten is even worse than on other classes, because the best part of Buten is the second one, since it hits three targets instead of two http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

And Shunbu vastly outdamages Buten at Lv10, Lv20, Lv30 and Lv40, because Buten is slow, the time it takes to execute Buten you execute several Shunbu.

Akaimizu
Dec 10, 2007, 10:19 AM
On 2007-12-08 15:28, MSAksion wrote:
All i know is that shunbu can knock over keg nodd while my guns aren't getting the job done. That alone makes shunbu better than rising strike. It also hits 2 targets for 2 hits doing 300~400 x 4 hits to a keg nodd with a dark dark straal (stupid name sega)

As for Guntechers - i'd rather see S rank Card fans than anything else. The Bow i put that away in favor of more Crossbows. Since Sega made the game EASY you dont even need status 4 anymore >_> taking away Rangers with Rifles and bows true need and just letting everyone resort to dual pistols and Crossbows for most status infecting.

And GT with Whip - nice idea actually... tho keep the melee to 10. I want GT to focus on guns not melee AND lvl 30 FORTETECHER style TECHS.



I still use Bows and Rifles, but for the precise reason I use them for. The High-HP big guys which appear in lesser numbers. Those are the guys I need to do those thousands of points of damage to, especially since DoT traps run out on you very fast as a GT. However, the SE4 on DoTs is significantly higher than SE3, so I tend to still use em in those situations. The SE3 for the initial start-em-up, and then land the SE4 for the kill.

Outside of that, Crossbows and Twin-gunnies still rock, and I use them a lot. The only exception is the darn Shielded mobs that don't take to status effects. If it wasn't for bows, they'd be the precise anti-GT showcasing every aspect of our weaknesses. Fortunately, there aren't too many of those. Still, I hear you on the easy mode. Kind of keeps GTs from struggling until they got their SE4 bullets like they used to.

I don't mind the S-rank bows, though. It gives us a long range strength-type weapon, which counts as a melee attack. Since GTs are still not-encouraged to use attack techs, it is a safer alternate means of doing melee. Particularly for certain creatures that make things a bit tough to stay in dagger range. One day, I'll be able to get a really good dagger, but there's a lot of high rank stuff I still need to get. Thanks to my PP/Saves, and of course, greater rewards, worrying about high level weapons and costs of recharging their ammo is a thing of the past.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 10, 2007, 06:43 PM
On 2007-12-09 07:29, Hrith wrote:
Actually, Solomon, on GTs, Buten is even worse than on other classes, because the best part of Buten is the second one, since it hits three targets instead of two http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

And Shunbu vastly outdamages Buten at Lv10, Lv20, Lv30 and Lv40, because Buten is slow, the time it takes to execute Buten you execute several Shunbu.



Again you are trying to compare a launcher with a general damage PA. Buten has good movement as a part of the PA. It's 'slowness' is less of an issue because it allows you to move your hits around as targets die or move out of range. Hikai is supposed to have the better movement, and even more speed, making it a great choice for level GTs. The issue of the second part of the combo is a non issue, as we are only looking at a level 10 skill.

If you want to look at level 11+ Shunbu...it is not all that fast. Compare to Rising Strike - I get my rising strike hits off far more readily, and take advantage of high saber ATP. The damage modifier is in line with Shunbu, and it has an additional hit.

Hrith
Dec 10, 2007, 11:25 PM
I don't really care if it's a "launcher" or not, Shunbu does more damage than Buten, period.

Shunbu is faster than Rising Strike, it's easy to time PAs, you know.
Shunbu also has significantly more ATA than Rising Strike, costs less PP on a weapon with both more ATA and more PP, so... >_>

Shadow_Wing
Dec 11, 2007, 12:10 AM
Why is the whole shunbu vs buten thing still going?

1st

shunbu and buten do different things...you cannot compare them.

2nd

It's a balanced pallet, where I'm prepared for even the most unexpected situations, and in my case, I don't have room to put in the situational Shunbu in there, unless u want me to drop my able to maneuver around the battlefield and be prone to attacks due to Shunbu's lack of movement. It's an extremely limiting PA and which kills the PA overall and the versatility of both Hikai and Buten are down right makes both much better than Shunbu. Additionally the range of Shunbu doesn't give it any points either.

3rd

Buten has good movement as a part of the PA. It's 'slowness' is less of an issue because it allows you to move your hits around as targets die or move out of range.

And finally

Personally, I don't like being called an idiot, directly or indirectly, just cause you can't see the uses of PAs outside of OMGF BIG NUMBERS.

Sure if I could fit it, I would add a dagger that is EQed with it, but as it stands, I like my versatile PAs over ones that aren't as much.

Gen2000
Dec 11, 2007, 03:55 AM
Why are we comparing it on solo anyway? I mean, think about how often you flince in a party and then argue to me the importance of a crowd control skill like Shunbu.

Well I solo or play in low man parties most of the time so I see the full use of PAs compared to the average player it seems, obviously playing super ez-mode 4+man parties you can easily create "optimal whipping situations" or whatever since everyone is blitzing the mobs anyways for you to finish off your full whip dance to actually do real damage to the 4-legged large monster mobs. I may even use whip too since all the enemies focus isn't on me.

Unsafe Passage S2...is not even a real mission anymore. Go try that fancy whip spam somewhere else like those AoI Neudiaz missions when those retarded dinosaur things show up and without 5 other players distracting them then start counting how many times you're kissing the ground or getting canceled before barely getting one spin off resulting in not only pitiful damage but unnesscary time wasted. With Shunbu they are already dead and I'm moving on to the next mob or block even.


And GT with Whip - nice idea actually... tho keep the melee to 10. I want GT to focus on guns not melee

Having lv.20 melee doesn't all of a sudden make one a melee class, far from it. Fortegunners didn't all of a sudden just start using spears with majarra only over their guns. Lv.20 is so they would have access the better part of the PAs.


Rising strike is faster, has a high damage modifier, and more hits.

Shunbu lv.40 has 250% ATP mod now. Rising Strike lv.40 is 220%. Shunbu already has 220% at lv.10

So the only truth is that Rising Strike has more hits (only 1 more, wow) because Shunbu is still faster. Are people thrown off by the arkward stance your character takes before executing Shunbu?


....I don't have room to put in the situational Shunbu in there,.... It's an extremely limiting PA and which kills the PA overall and the versatility of both Hikai and Buten are down right makes both much better than Shunbu. Additionally the range of Shunbu doesn't give it any points either...I like my versatile PAs over ones that aren't as much....

The funny thing is that Shunbu (and Rising Strike since it's similar) is one of the most versatile skills in the game but ok.

Shadow_Wing
Dec 11, 2007, 04:13 AM
On a situation to situation basis, no rising strike and shunbu don't win the versatile award.

CelestialBlade
Dec 11, 2007, 07:46 AM
Rising Strike and Shunbu are utility PAs at best. If you want all-around good damage, Gravity Strike and Hikai are the ways to go, personally. Utility is important but utility != versatile.

Gen2000
Dec 11, 2007, 09:41 AM
Being versatile is being able to handle any situtation thrown at ya...at least I thought so.

Rising Strike/Shunbu won't always be the best damage (I never said it was) but its damage always range from good through great, never horrible, and with the added effect of knocking away small-mid annoying enemies or knocking down big monsters quickly that benefits other party members or yourself in low man/solo parties it brings something to the table that other PAs can't in the same situtation couldn't.

But...I guess that's not what being versatile is all about, my mistake.

Pillan
Dec 11, 2007, 10:28 AM
On 2007-12-11 00:55, Gen2000 wrote:
Unsafe Passage S2...is not even a real mission anymore. Go try that fancy whip spam somewhere else like those AoI Neudiaz missions when those retarded dinosaur things show up and without 5 other players distracting them then start counting how many times you're kissing the ground or getting canceled before barely getting one spin off resulting in not only pitiful damage but unnesscary time wasted. With Shunbu they are already dead and I'm moving on to the next mob or block even.


You're right. It would be pretty dumb to use a whip against a fast moving large mob with 2 target zones. I would have assumed the 2 target zones would have been enough of a clue to everyone else that you could use something better. However, anyone arguing in favor of whips would obviously argue in favor of whips in a whip-favorable situation. So that would be all of your medium and small mob groups (since apparently we can both agree that they don't knock you out of it often enough) and your large mobs with lots of target zones that don't constantly knock you out of the combo or cause you to block (the lizards, all the Kamatoze copies except Kamatoze itself, Grinas, Grass Assassins, etc.).

Hrith
Dec 11, 2007, 10:43 AM
Rising Strike is not versatile? rofl http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Gen2000
Dec 11, 2007, 10:54 AM
Welll since I see people still trying to use whips on them in random parties I guess it's not so obvious to some people. Druas, the Lightining Beast Kamatoze copies and Grinnas attack just as much as the neudiaz dinosaurs. Shunbu still kills them faster, I actually learned Shunbu because the whip wasn't cutting it vs. the lightining beast kamatoze copies in terms of killing speed (and also loved how it killed Grass Assassins quicker in same mission as well).

Pillan
Dec 11, 2007, 11:15 AM
If you get good at positioning, you can use the whip really well. Stand beside the Drua’s eye and it will attempt to headbutt you and miss, allowing you to complete the first combo easily, then move toward the tail on the second part to get the extra target zones. That strategy works for me around 3 out of 4 times (sometimes he tail whips someone else and hits me with them). The lightning beast Kamatoze copy has never used any moves on me that knock me out of the combo and usually comes in groups of 3, so whips work beautifully. Grinas usually stand still for me and fire their mechs, but occasionally you get one that just rams and stomps, so it’s a toss-up against them. Likewise, it works great on Gol Dova when they aren’t running.

On the other hand, the things on Neudaiz hit you constantly, the Polovohra always use their stop, causing you to block or fall, the Svaltus constantly spin their sword, knocking you out of anything. And everything else doesn’t have enough targets or ever form large enough groups for whips to be remotely worthwhile.

But, yeah, I’m not here to make you like whips or either bother trying them, just telling you how they can work very well.

Hrith
Dec 11, 2007, 12:41 PM
I wish I would find a good whip user one day.

When I stumble upon whip users, all they seem to be capable of doing is annoying others with flinch, knockback and all that for about 30% of the damage I could deal if they had not used Grudda = huge waste of time.

panzer_unit
Dec 11, 2007, 12:54 PM
I'm sure they feel the same about your preference for shunbu and tornado dance.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 11, 2007, 01:07 PM
Shunbu is faster than Rising Strike, it's easy to time PAs, you know.

that's the thing, you don't have to time rising stike, it just works.


Shunbu also has significantly more ATA than Rising Strike, costs less PP on a weapon with both more ATA and more PP, so...

both rising and shunbu are accurate enough that it does not make a difference (80%+). I already agree than shunbu is better on the pp


Shunbu lv.40 has 250% ATP mod now. Rising Strike lv.40 is 220%. Shunbu already has 220% at lv.10

So the only truth is that Rising Strike has more hits (only 1 more, wow) because Shunbu is still faster. Are people thrown off by the arkward stance your character takes before executing Shunbu?

I said rising stirke has a HIGH damage modifier. Are you saying 220% isn't high? Shunbu is NOT faster. Shunbu may have a higher modifier at level 10 than rising strike, but it's a poor PA for a GT.

Hrith
Dec 11, 2007, 02:38 PM
On 2007-12-11 09:54, panzer_unit wrote:
I'm sure they feel the same about your preference for shunbu and tornado dance.Since I deal over three times their damage, if they did, they'd be wrong, so I don't really care about people who are mistaken and unable to realise it.

And I was talking about the players I stumbled upon, maybe they were all very bad whip users, who knows.



On 2007-12-11 10:07, SolomonGrundy wrote:
that's the thing, you don't have to time rising stike, it just works.ugh, that's not what I meant at all, are you that much of a troll?

I meant time as in "measure how long it takes to execute"

And Shunbu is faster.


both rising and shunbu are accurate enough that it does not make a difference (80%+). I already agree than shunbu is better on the ppATA always makes a difference, and the difference in ATA between Shunbu and Rising Strike is significant, since you have to take into account that sabers have lower ATA to begin with.


Shunbu may have a higher modifier at level 10 than rising strike, but it's a poor PA for a GT.Still better than Buten or Rising Strike =/

panzer_unit
Dec 11, 2007, 03:25 PM
On 2007-12-11 11:38, Hrith wrote:

On 2007-12-11 09:54, panzer_unit wrote:
I'm sure they feel the same about your preference for shunbu and tornado dance.Since I deal over three times their damage, if they did, they'd be wrong, so I don't really care about people who are mistaken and unable to realise it.


That's the attitude that makes America great.

"I'm doing more damage than these other losers. Who cares if there's some slightly less damaging option that would allow the rest of the team to make a non-zero contribution... TO THE MOON ALICE!" *shunbu*
It's extra funny when it's followed by the fighter berating everyone for sucking so bad and not doing any damage compared to him.

While fighters do huge damage individually, when I see a bunch together on a team (unless they're spamming Chikki) they generally perform at like half their potential because PA's scatter stuff all over and most folks are lucky to be able to capitalize on any sort of multi-target hitting. Sometimes fast, messy crowd control is appropriate. On easymode missions, it's just keeping the team from killing stuff quickly.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-11 12:31 ]</font>

Hrith
Dec 11, 2007, 04:12 PM
Well, first thing, I'm French.

When in a team of 4 or more players, I do not use the final part of PAs that do knockback -- hence why I prefer Assault Crush, Rensan Senshou-ga, Bogga Zubba, Hishou Jinren-zan and Gravity Dance in large parties, no knockback = faster completion time (and generally less annoyance).

I can pull out Tornado Dance when needed, because it can actually be a good thing to scatter monsters, but most of the time, when playing in large parties, Tornado Dance is not even linked.


You should not generalise.

Bman40
Dec 11, 2007, 04:28 PM
Fortegunners Should get s rank twin pistols more than anything else

panzer_unit
Dec 11, 2007, 04:41 PM
On 2007-12-11 13:12, Hrith wrote:
Well, first thing, I'm French.

When in a team of 4 or more players, I do not use the fina...<backpedalling>

You should not generalise.


No brownie points for nationality.

LOL sorry for making a generalization based on the last two pages of your own opinions about various attacks.

If it weren't for the well-concealed fact that you don't actually follow the "nothin' but shunbu" philosophy you were pushing for 2 pages straight, it's like I would have pointed out a problem with it or something... only instead of being right, I get called a jerk.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-11 13:58 ]</font>

Shadow_Wing
Dec 11, 2007, 04:53 PM
Eh, people call me an ass sometimes, doesn't stop me XD.

On rising strike and shunbu, for both of them to be excellent requires certain situations. Rising strike is generally over shadowed by gravity strike, and Shunbu is generally over shadowed by it's two dagger PA relatives.

Thus they don't win the versatility award, but doesn't mean they're bad PAs overall, it's just when having limited Pallet space you don't go for situational PAs over more versatile ones.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-11 13:57 ]</font>

Hrith
Dec 11, 2007, 06:40 PM
On 2007-12-11 13:41, panzer_unit wrote:
LOL sorry for making a generalization based on the last two pages of your own opinions about various attacks.It's still generalising, which is the clearest sign of stupidity.

Just because Shunbu is better than Rising Strike, Buten or Grudda does not make the other bad PAs.

There is only one PA I consider factually bad, it's Splendor Crush.
Any other PA in the game is fine, whether there is better or not.

It will not stop me from proving to other players why such or such PA is better.

That a PA is better than another does not mean you have to use it at all costs, especially when the difference in performance is tiny, in some cases.

But we're not discussing preferences, or debating subjective ideas.
I never saw a point in debating what is subjective anyway.

Shunbu Shouren-zan is objectively better than Rising Strike. Use it, don't use it, why should I care?
I only care about the debate, from an objective standpoint.

Assuming that I think I am right because I am more powerful would make you a jerk, yes.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 11, 2007, 06:42 PM
Well, first thing, I'm French.

that explains a lot.

...ok, just kidding, that's a cheap shot. If you want to prove shunbu is faster, make a video. otherwise rising is faster. Shunbu has a charge up animation, rising does not.

Hrith
Dec 11, 2007, 06:46 PM
Rising Strike has a longer delay between part #1 and part #2, and a longer cool down time at the end.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 11, 2007, 07:19 PM
On 2007-12-11 15:46, Hrith wrote:
Rising Strike has a longer delay between part #1 and part #2, and a longer cool down time at the end.



Aha! Now we are communicating! I was referencing the time to begin the PA. I would like to make the case once again, then, that this PA is not good for Guntechers who cannot take advantage of a short delay between 1->2. by the same token, they will be subjected to the longer start up time more often (every time the PA is activated), so any cool down benefits lost.

That brings us to pp use and accuracy. For guntechers, accuracy is not an issue for melee attacks - the high accuracy of Guntecher offsets weapon/PA accuracy needed to hit in 95% of situations. GRM daggers have lower accuracy then GRM sabers, so we'll look at Yohemi - and the differece in 21 ATA (282 vs 301). As for modifiers Shunbu has 72% at level 10, while rising strike has 70%

so 21 ATA and 2% accuracy make it better for a GT? I don't think so. Not when there is a 200+ ATP difference between the two. Expressed as a % that is a 53% increase over the daggers.

I think PP use is a non issue. You can disagree, but I'm not sure how to argue the point. If you feel that you are going to go through an inordinate # of Photon Charges with, I'm not sure how to prove otherwise, because pp use tends to be a playstyle thing.

Hrith
Dec 12, 2007, 10:42 AM
So you are using Mimimi-zashi and Masamunera as examples, yeah?

What is the difference in ATP after the modifiers are applied?

I am too lazy to go GT, and I don't think I'll ever play GT again, so get me those numbers.

And even if the start up time of Shunbu is a bit slower than that of Rising Strike, I doubt the latter is any faster.
Dagger also has a much faster regular combo, which hits 4 times while saber is 3, and you'll use that for refilling PP and/or starting JA.

I was comparing Shiratsuno-zashi and Buccaneer with a Lv31 Shunbu and Lv30 Rising Strike, and Shunbu wins, despite the dagger being Yohmei, and the Saber, GRM.

panzer_unit
Dec 12, 2007, 11:25 AM
On 2007-12-11 15:40, Hrith wrote:
It's still generalising, which is the clearest sign of stupidity.

Just because Shunbu is better than Rising Strike, Buten or Grudda does not make the other bad PAs. ... That a PA is better than another does not mean you have to use it at all costs, especially when the difference in performance is tiny, in some cases.


You're on my case for generalizing, while claiming that Shunbu is ALWAYS a better PA than similar moves for different weapons... along with completely different moves for the same weapon? That's pretty ironic.

If that makes me stupid about trying to fathom your line of reasoning, you're stupid about the actual subject matter.

Hrith
Dec 12, 2007, 12:43 PM
I fail to see your point. I'm not generalising, I'm posting facts.

I said:
-Shunbu is safer than Buten
-Shunbu is more powerful than Buten
-Shunbu is more powerful than Rising Strike
-Shunbu is more powerful than Grudda

It's not generalisation, it's truth.

If you'd rather not use Shunbu, despite the facts, I don't give a damn.
Quit trolling.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 12, 2007, 12:59 PM
So you are using Mimimi-zashi and Masamunera as examples, yeah?

I was using the 9* yoh dagger and 9* GRM saber


On 2007-12-12 09:43, Hrith wrote:
I fail to see your point. I'm not generalising, I'm posting facts.

I said:
-Shunbu is safer than Buten
-Shunbu is more powerful than Buten
-Shunbu is more powerful than Rising Strike
-Shunbu is more powerful than Grudda

It's not generalisation, it's truth.

If you'd rather not use Shunbu, despite the facts, I don't give a damn.
Quit trolling.



with statements like that, I think it's safe to say there is nothing further that can be gained in a discussion with you. "safer that buten" lol.

Fyi: be advised, you are not posting facts. A fact is something like: the accuracy modifier for Shunbu at level 10 is 72% (see my post on further up on this page)
An opinion reads more like your quotes above: "safe" "powerful"



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-12-12 10:04 ]</font>

MT7218
Dec 12, 2007, 01:14 PM
I'll throw a monkey wrench into this and suggest something GTs should have that hasn't been mentioned. An A in Spears. Forces, Rangers, Fortetechers, and Fortegunners get spears in their arsenal, yet the class that is the middle road between these four get the shaft? Spears aren't exactly the fastest of weps, and with GT's focus, sabers, and daggers weps should be a last resort for them as is. Whip's AoE and on GT is a bit excessive since they have several multi-enemy hitting weaopns as is within their focus of gunning. And before people argue what x PAs on x wep would be better in relation to this discussion, keep in mind the focus of the class. Melee for GT is supposed to be your last resort, given it's gunning specality with teching on the side. With that in mind, GTs shouldn't get the good or "ideal" weapon to use for what they are when the weapon type is something not within their focus. And no, I don't mean the absurd either, like giving them axes. This is just my two cents on this issue.

panzer_unit
Dec 12, 2007, 03:24 PM
On 2007-12-12 09:43, Hrith wrote:
I fail to see your point. I'm not generalising, I'm posting facts.

No, you're making broad conclusions based on the comparisons of extremely specific criteria. Those are also called generalizations.

- Shunbu is safer than Buten in some situations. The majority time neither move has an advantage. Occasionally Buten lets you dodge something while beating on a monster.

- Shunbu WOULD be more powerful than these other PA if it wasn't for Dagger. Instead the initial attack is relatively slow, so you lose by having to JA multiple Shunbus to beat a slower move's damage advantage. It does make bigger numbers though, if that's all you want.

Akaimizu
Dec 12, 2007, 03:31 PM
On 2007-12-11 13:28, Bman40 wrote:
Fortegunners Should get s rank twin pistols more than anything else



And take away the Guntecher's main exclusive weapon? Besides, Twin handguns (from what I remember) are light and very mobile weapons and I would expect Fortegunners to be the heavy weapons expert more than anything else. GTs are made to be more mobile gunners, so stuff that supports that idea does help. It makes a lot more sense than S-classing the Bows....but methinks the S-class Bow was put in there for balance. With terrible attack-tech damage, a bullet-resistant monster makes a GTs lowered ATP really hurt for damage, so the Bow allows a strength-attack option without resorting to the last-resort weapons (dagger/saber), which are very situational and often put them in danger unless the enemy counts are light.

From a sci-fi balance perspective, I see GTs being akin to the little fast fighters who provide aid for the destroyers and ForteGunners akin to the destroyer ships with destructive weaponry of high power.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 12, 2007, 03:38 PM
I agree with Akaimizu on the subject of twin pistols. Clearly the original poster does not understand what a big blow it is to lose Grenade launchers.

I think less jobs should get spear, not more. I like th fact that GT, AF, and AT do not get spear. I understand why they gave spears to Fortegunner, though I may not agree with the choice...

Gib whip nao!

Akaimizu
Dec 12, 2007, 03:55 PM
Well, Grenade Launchers is an omission I kind of see. For some reason they do not want a high-damage multi-monster or possibly multi-point attack in that profession at all. And the big knock-down monster moving weapon being in our MayaLee Prism is akin to keeping the class surgical. All of our weapons are geared towards surgical with the one exception of our limited use of traps and Shotguns. Though that still means we get not 1 single multi-target (one beast) weapon. That wont change. That's a rule SEGA will not cross.

Crossbows spread, but it's extremely easy to control exact distribution. We're more status effecting, if not, single monster pounders. But we're given tools to quickly get attacks across a group of monsters. My thoughts leaned toward monster distraction. (eg. getting monsters to turn their attacks towards us, which puts a major importance of us staying at a distance, so we can easily dodge the incoming ire we caused. Especially for those times the fast moving mid-sized monsters all start singing "Kill the Gunner...Kill the Gunner.." like some Elmer Fudd opera.) But then again, I've always been a support-build GT. It's better than all the melee monsters ganging up on the straight fTs, or the high tech monsters pounding the fighters.

If there was one wish, I sometimes think about, is that we get some increased running speed. When you get ganged, it's like some kind of horror movie where you see them prepping for an attack, you already start running at the first sign of some future potential danger, but your movement seems awfully slow compared to the high speed tracking of certain monster attacks.

Still, confusion and the MayaLee Prism are so much more important now that we have monsters that do insane damage on even armor that is of the same element. (My goodness, the high amount of damage Barta does with certain S2 monsters on Ice armor, of all things. I can't even fathom the damage if I wasn't wearing the right armor.)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-12-12 12:58 ]</font>

Shadow_Wing
Dec 12, 2007, 03:59 PM
On 2007-12-12 09:43, Hrith wrote:
I fail to see your point. I'm not generalising, I'm posting facts.

I said:
-Shunbu is safer than Buten
-Shunbu is more powerful than Buten
-Shunbu is more powerful than Rising Strike
-Shunbu is more powerful than Grudda

It's not generalisation, it's truth.

If you'd rather not use Shunbu, despite the facts, I don't give a damn.
Quit trolling.


Mmmmmmkay, I was playing with Shunbu for a little bit yesterday at the new missions just to disprove/prove everything, and because I was kinda bored of using Hikai and Buten XD. (I can go GT for a GT perspective, however this is from an AT perspective though, and imo more so important being that ATs use daggers more often than GT)

Shunbu is definitely not safer than Buten, what I've noticed is the increased of damage gained via the lack of movement (solo mind u) from robots normal attacks and sleep moves, not only that but an increase of interrupts due to a higher rate of attacks hitting me. Shows in a clear appearance of both damage taken and the faster rate of my resta wand being depleted.

Shunbu being more powerful than Buten, yes this is a fact, but besides the point we were arguing anyways.

Shunbu is more damage than grudda if the targets on screen is less than 4, however if there is 4-6 targets when the whip is being used Shunbu gets horribly owned by whips.

PS: Opinion != Facts

panzer_unit
Dec 12, 2007, 04:01 PM
On 2007-12-12 12:31, Akaimizu wrote:
And take away the Guntecher's main exclusive weapon? Besides, Twin handguns (from what I remember) are light and very mobile weapons and I would expect Fortegunners to be the heavy weapons expert more than anything else. GTs are made to be more mobile gunners, so stuff that supports that idea does help. It makes a lot more sense than S-classing the Bows....but methinks the S-class Bow was put in there for balance. With terrible attack-tech damage, a bullet-resistant monster makes a GTs lowered ATP really hurt for damage, so the Bow allows a strength-attack option without resorting to the last-resort weapons (dagger/saber), which are very situational and often put them in danger unless the enemy counts are light.

From a sci-fi balance perspective, I see GTs being akin to the little fast fighters who provide aid for the destroyers and ForteGunners akin to the destroyer ships with destructive weaponry of high power.


Both Acro classes have Twin Handgun... I think GT only gets Mechgun and Crossbow as true signature weapons. Powerful single-monster stagger and status effect equipment. With the AOI everything-causes-stagger change, shotguns are at a definite advantage to crossbows for mass crowd control due to the wider arc and higher bullet count.

Spear's PA selection makes it a pretty poor choice of generic melee weapon for non-fighters. The weapon stats are nice, but it's like a theme that the weapon does nothing to disrupt your enemies until the final blow. I'd never consider using one over Saber or Dagger unless I had or was working on level 21+ PA's.

Knuckles (all PA), Sword (Tornado & Gravity), and Double Saber (Spiral, Tornado)... those are some weapons you could get some real value from with even if your PA's are only second-tier.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-12 13:08 ]</font>

Kion
Dec 12, 2007, 04:19 PM
The only difference about frtegunner getting S rank twin handguns is that there wouldn't be a noob alive who didn't take advantage of it and no one would even attept to try out the other weapons available to the class. Fortegunner has much more damaging weapons, twin handgun allow them to tag, but other weapons can generally cause more canage even though it may put them in a tight spot.
Sadly despite only having A ranks twins, i've yet to see an FG use another weapon. And never, have i ever met a fortegunner alive who's ever picked up a laser cannon let alone realize they can do serveral thousand damage a shot easily.

And I have to agree with MT712 on the spear. I've been going FG on my GT lately for the sole reason of being able to use majjra for the grove of fanatics boss fight. with level 10 hikai being our highest output for melee damag, GT has a real disadvantage for any bullet resistant monster. atleat one two handed melee would make things easier.

And for balance, it wouldn't be too far out to make an acrogunner class of fast striking melee and ranged weapons. S rank: twin sabers, twin handguns, rifles A rank: spears, laser cannon, level 30 bullets level 30 striking. Something along those lines.

Akaimizu
Dec 12, 2007, 04:22 PM
The others get Twin Handguns, but not at S class. That's what we were talking about. And while stuff like Crossbows are definitely promoted for the GT class, it's also similar that the Twin Handguns are promoted for them. In many cases, when it comes to Boss attacking, they're our best weapon of direct attack. Rifles then come in when the boss is being real annoying and moving about too much. Though Bows often get used there because in those cases, the Boss is making hitting those weakpoints tough, so the Bow's (hit anywhere, I do decent damage, but not as good as the Rifle and then the Twins at weakpoint damage) kicks in.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-12-12 13:28 ]</font>

Hrith
Dec 12, 2007, 04:26 PM
On 2007-12-12 09:59, SolomonGrundy wrote:
be advised, you are not posting facts. A fact is something like: the accuracy modifier for Shunbu at level 10 is 72% (see my post on further up on this page)
An opinion reads more like your quotes above: "safe" "powerful"That's my way of wording it, so even people like you can understand, because after two pages, you apparently still cannot understand simple facts.

And yeah, Shunbu is clearly safer than Buten. Buten is slow, and will get canceled most of the time. Shunbu is fast, the first hit juggles (flying monsters are no threat) and it's static, which makes it incredibly safer to use on big monsters, especially as GT.

So yeah, I post facts, you refute them, you fail.

panzer_unit
Dec 12, 2007, 05:09 PM
On 2007-12-12 13:26, Hrith wrote:
That's my way of wording it, so even people like you can understand, because after two pages, you apparently still cannot understand simple facts.

And yeah, Shunbu is clearly safer than Buten. Buten is slow, and will get canceled most of the time. Shunbu is fast, the first hit juggles (flying monsters are no threat) and it's static, which makes it incredibly safer to use on big monsters, especially as GT.

So yeah, I post facts, you refute them, you fail.

How long until you figure out that insults don't work any better than repetition?

Melee on fliers is an example of what? 'lol'? What's that got to do with anything, especially for a gunner class?

Yes, a launch PA is safer than not against a large monster that's susceptible to flipping. That's situational at best though, considering the enormous disadvantage of being immobile. Hardly grounds for making some huge generalization about safety and then berating anyone with a different opinion.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-12 14:10 ]</font>

Shadow_Wing
Dec 12, 2007, 05:12 PM
I was talking with my friend about this, he's a fF/AF and a much better melee person than I am (he knows the ins and outs of every PA, and is working towards having full lvl 40s). I've always trusted him on knowing what he's talking about when it comes to physical damage (where is my specialty is support, his is damage and tanking)


I can use it really well in all situations but it's not gonna be comparable to how flexible buten is. Hikai on the other hand works far better in enclosed enemy groups cause the 2nd part doesn't always reach. Shunbu's survivability might be higher than Buten since it's easier to counter anything before it hits, buten you gotta wait till your heel hits, however Buten is still higher in use than Shunbu since it has higher reach, more hits and a combo that doesn't make it hard to continue, unlike Shunbu which can hit them away and not reach. This is due to it not working well with rolling enemies like bots and olakas.

HaydenX
Dec 14, 2007, 03:25 PM
On 2007-12-12 13:19, Kion wrote:
The only difference about frtegunner getting S rank twin handguns is that there wouldn't be a noob alive who didn't take advantage of it and no one would even attept to try out the other weapons available to the class. Fortegunner has much more damaging weapons, twin handgun allow them to tag, but other weapons can generally cause more canage even though it may put them in a tight spot.
Sadly despite only having A ranks twins, i've yet to see an FG use another weapon. And never, have i ever met a fortegunner alive who's ever picked up a laser cannon let alone realize they can do serveral thousand damage a shot easily.

And I have to agree with MT712 on the spear. I've been going FG on my GT lately for the sole reason of being able to use majjra for the grove of fanatics boss fight. with level 10 hikai being our highest output for melee damag, GT has a real disadvantage for any bullet resistant monster. atleat one two handed melee would make things easier.

And for balance, it wouldn't be too far out to make an acrogunner class of fast striking melee and ranged weapons. S rank: twin sabers, twin handguns, rifles A rank: spears, laser cannon, level 30 bullets level 30 striking. Something along those lines.



My Cast FG (I know...how original) uses his Thunder Cannon 3/10 all of the time. It kills things dead. It does massive damage, and with the slowdown update from a few weeks ago, It works vs. those pesky megid throwing deljabans quite well. I also use it on olgohmons (I use the ground type laser). Silence lv. 1 inflicts more often than one would think.

About duelies...They are just to damn fun to use (I'm guily of owning 2 death makers and an evil twins). It tags low lvl. stuff and allows you full range of movement.

The rifle is, however, the best damn weapon for an FG imo. It can be used as a dps wep in a pinch, and can keep enemies at bay for a thousand f***ing miles. Adios gaozorans...

Finally, there is the GL. The GL is amazing for large enemies of course, but for flying enemies who land (jusnaguns mainly) and also gaozorans, they also rule ass. All in all the GL is the most fun to use of the guns (again imo), but it is a little expensive and exclusive to PT or FG, so experimenting with classes isn't an option.

People use dualies because 4 (or 5) classes can use them.

AT
FG
GT
fG
(I think) AF

My highest lvl char is 52 and lowest is 38, so I guess you can take what I say with a grain of salt, but they're just opinions anyway.

Akaimizu
Dec 14, 2007, 04:19 PM
I use dualies first and foremost because it is plain in my character definition. Tynselle was developed, since launch, with a backstory and she absolutely adores Twin Handguns. Long before just about anybody else felt like using them. It just wouldn't be Tynselle without her trademark weapon.

I also took painstaking time to learn every possible use of the Twin Handguns. They are prime in their versatility, even if there's still lots they can't do. But what they can do, within their abilities, is broader than just about anybody else cares to think.

On the other hand, a lot of my Twin Handgun use is geared around the relative stats and abilities of the Support-build Guntecher. A role pretty much decided for Tynselle since her inception (before there were Advanced classes). It is true that quite a few classes can use them, but for the longest time--only a select few of them would use them. There was a lot of elite feelings on the forums, and people only looked at straight damage, and not so much on behavior patterns of a real-time action game. I remember standing by them during the least popular times for the weapon because, well, nobody was thinking of other ways to play the Guntecher support role and the various ways you configure for a different set of party members and how to most effectively help *them* kick as much butt as possible. (heh. As if buffs/debuffs/heals is the only ways to support in this game)

I played most of PSO as a support Force and I had my own online mantra, during that time. "Think not as much about how much can you individually kick butt...but more on how much you can get EVERYBODY to kick butt." I carry this mantra to the Guntecher and to the Acrotecher. Though I have to admit, that Acrotecher damage (at times) is hurting on my ego. I'm trying NOT to let that go to my head. It's probably another reason why Tynselle has to play that class. The avatar is a reminder of what mentality I need to operate with.

Still, I kind of wish I didn't get so busy and had to severely cut my play time on this game. I went from the first Guntecher ever to master all their Twin Handgun bullets, to one that has others that already have level 31 Twin Gunny bullets ahead of her.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-12-14 13:33 ]</font>

Hrith
Dec 15, 2007, 03:18 AM
On 2007-12-12 14:09, panzer_unit wrote:
How long until you figure out that insults don't work any better than repetition?How long until you figure out that continuing to reply to me when you're so obviously wrong that you ceased having valid arguments two pages ago only makes you look more and more of a nub?

Aviendha
Dec 19, 2007, 02:43 AM
On 2007-12-08 10:28, Hrith wrote:
Lots of damage in little time = no drawback.

As soon as I saw this, I wanted to reply. But, Panzer Unit summarizes nicely why most melee users are selfish idiots.


On 2007-12-11 12:25, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-12-11 11:38, Hrith wrote:

On 2007-12-11 09:54, panzer_unit wrote:
I'm sure they feel the same about your preference for shunbu and tornado dance.Since I deal over three times their damage, if they did, they'd be wrong, so I don't really care about people who are mistaken and unable to realise it.


That's the attitude that makes America great.

"I'm doing more damage than these other losers. Who cares if there's some slightly less damaging option that would allow the rest of the team to make a non-zero contribution... TO THE MOON ALICE!" *shunbu*
It's extra funny when it's followed by the fighter berating everyone for sucking so bad and not doing any damage compared to him.

While fighters do huge damage individually, when I see a bunch together on a team (unless they're spamming Chikki) they generally perform at like half their potential because PA's scatter stuff all over and most folks are lucky to be able to capitalize on any sort of multi-target hitting. Sometimes fast, messy crowd control is appropriate. On easymode missions, it's just keeping the team from killing stuff quickly.


And then this gem here...

On 2007-12-12 13:26, Hrith wrote:
And yeah, Shunbu is clearly safer than Buten. Buten is slow, and will get canceled most of the time.
Buten is extremely mobile, so it is not difficult to dodge attacks from enemies other than the 1-2 you're flinching with your hits. I have yet to be knocked out of Buten in AoI, so I must ask: Have you even used this PA before?

Shunbu does less damage than Buten even if you have under 3 targets. But since you talk about Buten being canceled, which is only likely if there are several targets, I'll assume there are three. In that case, Shunbu does about 55% as much damage as Buten per use. Shunbu is quite a bit faster, but Buten takes forever to get to the knockback, which is a good thing in parties, since it gives your teammates time to hit enemies as well.

Arguing about Grudda vs. Anything is pointless because Danga is better.

ON TOPIC: Hikai is the best GT melee choice. The best DPS, still has knockdown, etc. Any GT still reading buy Hikai if you don't already have it.

Hrith
Dec 19, 2007, 07:30 AM
Except no one forces you to use the second part of Shunbu, I often do not use the final hit on skills when that final hit is a knockback, precisely because it annoys the team.

In the same amount of time, Shunbu will do more damage than Buten, anything else you'll say is irrelevant.

Buten's maneuvrability will not allow you to avoid being canceled by anything bigger than a Distova (and still, there are new small enemies heavy with cancel moves with a huge radius), so a fast PA will always beat a mobile PA in that department.

I have Buten at Lv40, and the other two at Lv31 and still they outdamage the former. Get real.
Buten gets canceled most of the time, I have high EVP as human FI, and using Buten in a swarm of Go Bajilla will always get it canceled before the end. Shunbu and Hikai are too fast for that.
And since they also do more damage, Buten has become crap.


Know your facts, nub.

Shadow_Wing
Dec 19, 2007, 07:34 AM
Do we.... need to go over this AGAIN?

*cough cough*


I can use it really well in all situations but it's not gonna be comparable to how flexible buten is. Hikai on the other hand works far better in enclosed enemy groups cause the 2nd part doesn't always reach. Shunbu's survivability might be higher than Buten since it's easier to counter anything before it hits, buten you gotta wait till your heel hits, however Buten is still higher in use than Shunbu since it has higher reach, more hits and a combo that doesn't make it hard to continue; unlike Shunbu which can hit them away and not reach. This is due to it not working well with rolling enemies like bots and olakas.

*cough cough*

Not everything is based on what does more http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hrith
Dec 19, 2007, 10:12 AM
Your lack of skill at using specific PAs is not an argument.

Calsetes
Dec 19, 2007, 10:36 AM
Hey, as a melee class, if I use a PA that's getting on my team's nerves by sending enemies flying around, and they let me know that, then I stop using the PA (or at least, the part of the PA that sends them flying). Will I do less damage? Probably, but if other people can tag it at least, or do more damage to it than my one extra hit would have done, then it's worth it, in my opinion. I'm all about what's best for the team.

panzer_unit
Dec 19, 2007, 10:57 AM
On 2007-12-19 04:30, Hrith wrote:
Except no one forces you to use the second part of Shunbu, I often do not use the final hit on skills when that final hit is a knockback, precisely because it annoys the team.

So you're not doing the part of Shunbu that puts it on the map for DPS... and that means you're further mangling your damage output by spending 2/3 of your time setting up JA's with normal dagger strikes, or spamming the PA without criticals to match Buten's rate of attacks and per-hit damage (on the weaker first part) for 50% more PP. Neither are better than cranking out a steady stream of slightly lower numbers.


In the same amount of time, Shunbu will do more damage than Buten, anything else you'll say is irrelevant.

... if you're only counting the time when Shunbu's going off and doing damage, maybe. I could say the same about Anga Jabroga.
That's just spike damage, which is plenty useful but not at all what you're trying to talk about and also not at all sufficient for justifying any of these claims of superiority you're making.

Pillan
Dec 19, 2007, 12:17 PM
On 2007-12-19 07:57, panzer_unit wrote:
So you're not doing the part of Shunbu that puts it on the map for DPS... and that means you're further mangling your damage output by spending 2/3 of your time setting up JA's with normal dagger strikes, or spamming the PA without criticals to match Buten's rate of attacks and per-hit damage (on the weaker first part) for 50% more PP. Neither are better than cranking out a steady stream of slightly lower numbers.


As much as it pains me to say it (and it really pains me to say it), I agree with Hrith on that statement. If you're only considering moves which keep enemies off their feet without forcing you to run around after the mob, Shunbu is one of your best bets. The second move of Shunbu is actually the one that kills it's damage/time, since it's just pretty numbers that don't add up to the 4 hits of the first move and send the enemy flying out of your party's damage zone. (I like to call that Majarra-syndrome.)

(Not sure if you're aware of this from the above statement, but you can easily just move from the first dagger strike into a JA'd PA, which is a fairly negligable amount of time and very easy to do. It can be used to make up for the time lossed chasing enemies from blowing them away, assuming you're not strong enough for the full combo to end it.)

But, yeah, on a no-blow away basis, Buten sucks and Shunbu and Hikai are the two contenders.

panzer_unit
Dec 19, 2007, 01:16 PM
On 2007-12-19 09:17, Pillan wrote:
As much as it pains me to say it (and it really pains me to say it), I agree with Hrith on that statement. If you're only considering moves which keep enemies off their feet without forcing you to run around after the mob, Shunbu is one of your best bets.
...
(Not sure if you're aware of this from the above statement, but you can easily just move from the first dagger strike into a JA'd PA, which is a fairly negligable amount of time)
...
But, yeah, on a no-blow away basis, Buten sucks and Shunbu and Hikai are the two contenders.


Don't get me wrong, I think Shunbu's great. You can get in and ninja the hell out of Stateria and Grinna Bete between their tornados/stomps/etc that interrupt longer combos. You can deal some great damage while precisely landing launches and knockbacks to keep a big monster permanently off its feet. That's what it was meant for and it's awesome at it.

My opinion is that the first dagger strike is pretty slow in terms of normal attacks... it's two normally-paced swings, too slow for start-and-stop PA's (especially when you aren't dropping the big single hit) to win versus an uninterrupted flow of good critical-hit damage.

The way things are currently you can go straight through the Buten combo in team missions, including the very damaging second part, and the odds are really good that the monsters are dead from being slammed by everyone's AE attacks the entire time... or have been punted out by someone else before you get around to the final hit. Either way you got to do damage at a good rate for yourself while locking targets down for the rest of your team rather than making a mess. Buten's set up so you can go for the full potential damage output, while technically (if at all, the 3x4 finisher on Buten does damage at a good rate) more powerful moves have to hold back because they'd be too disruptive.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-19 10:53 ]</font>

Shadow_Wing
Dec 19, 2007, 03:25 PM
On 2007-12-19 07:12, Hrith wrote:
Your lack of skill at using specific PAs is not an argument.



Your lack of imaginative intelligence is also not a valid argument. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hrith
Dec 19, 2007, 05:29 PM
That's not even a good come back, have some pride and leave.

Shadow_Wing
Dec 19, 2007, 07:12 PM
On 2007-12-19 14:29, Hrith wrote:
That's not even a good come back, have some pride and leave.


I didn't really try because talking to you is like talking to a wall.

Anyways same could be said about you, your arguments based around that Shunbu is just better because it does more damage is lack luster at best. In fact the stating of how Shunbu is so great kinda reminds me of Kef on the official forums, which may or may not be you, but needless to say his anti-twin handgun argument is just as stupid as you spouting out that shunbu is the end all of dagger PAs. It's great in certain situations but on the versatility scale Buten is the best.

Why? 3 reasons.

Buten I don't need to get close to the mobs to get into damage range, I can start Just Attacking the PA from far away and enter a group of mobs at the 2nd hit of the 1st PA, this offers a lot of flinch locking to a set of mobs and the 2nd part of the PA is initiated quickly there after. This relative range makes for an ideal initial attack on group of small unit mobs, giving me generally the first attack which in turns gives me an early start on mob control rather than avoidance as I attempt to get into Shunbu range.

As previously stated flinch locking is a big part of what I do as a fG and a AT cause it offers one of the best, let me reiterate that again, one of the best supportive techniques in the game, and being able to do that without throwing things in the air, IE: Rising Stike and Shunbu, makes for easier hitting form the bigger hitters as their PAs don't necessarily hit mid air mobs. However Shunbu does outshine Buten in this aspect on bigger mobs, which on top of that, taking into consideration of other PAs, Gravity Strike outshines most general ideal uses of Shunbu in this aspect (which is attributed to the ability to keep big units knocked down consistently due to gravity strike being timed properly that once they get up the KB hit is in the process of connecting).

The last reason is the movement of Shunbu, it practically has none. To stay within a single spot for more than a few seconds makes me prone to heavy damage, especially in a group of 5 or more of medium sized mobs.

It's these three reasons why Buten wins the versatility award over the three PAs (well that and it's modest KB effect in the 2nd combo as well XD)

Now please, Shunbu is good for what it does but isn't better than Buten at what it does cause really, both do very different things. While Buten is a more versatile PA it does lack in damage, but it gains a lot in other aspects that Shunbu just doesn't offer.

Now Hirith, lets drop this, I think this is gone long enough, personal preference is great and all but to sputter like it's fact is stupid within itself. Shunbu and Buten have their perks, and if I could, I'd use both in my pallet, and really this is why single daggers are great, the PAs they have are all unique to their own and none of them really suck in general. One is great for spike damage, another for versatility and one of em is in the middle of the two.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 19, 2007, 08:50 PM
Update: I did some testing with Shunbu for you, and one thing that came out of it was this: If you are using a Giga Bullet PP Save then Shunbu is the only PA with an acceptable use/cost.

Other than that, it is just as I expected: rising strike is faster, and cool down is not a consideration because launchers lanch enemies away from you, causing you to move before using the PA again. The damage modifier advantage shunbu has is offset by sabers larger (larger) ATP.