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Fredrick
Dec 4, 2007, 01:02 AM
When I first heard about AT I thought they were basically going to be a weaker, more exciting alternative to FT. But... their TP really isn't that much lower, and that combined with the increased speed and lv 40 retnis (sp) I wouldn't be surprised if there was no damage difference at all. In fact it seems like ATs is the way FTs should have been from the start... and all FT now does it seal rods and lv 40 attack techs from ATs.

I think there should be a much bigger difference. FTs should be either way more powerful, or ATs should be way weaker and faster.

Honestly with the way things are right now, I don't see why the two classes can't be merged. Speed of a Acro, Lv40 caps on all techs, and S rank madoog whip fan rod wand, and adjust the TP so that the class wouldn't be ridiculously good. I mean that wouldn't hurt the game at all. All it would do is make things a lot more exciting.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Fredrick on 2007-12-03 22:08 ]</font>

hewitt
Dec 4, 2007, 01:07 AM
What about bows... =/

Fredrick
Dec 4, 2007, 01:08 AM
On 2007-12-03 22:07, hewitt wrote:
What about bows... =/



No one gives a crap about bows >8|

YUKI_N
Dec 4, 2007, 01:11 AM
I don't mind acrotecher that much but the speed bonus they get is bullshit. Level 40 attack techs on rods = everything is dead already

I like the idea of having an offense force and a support force, but the support is arguably better at offense right now, not even counting melee. Dam- spells are all FT really has to itself right now

Syl
Dec 4, 2007, 01:14 AM
Balance? In mah psu? lol wut?

But yeah, rods are pretty awesome, especially with the boost thats coming soon.

Mayu
Dec 4, 2007, 01:15 AM
What is this balance you speak of???

Zorafim
Dec 4, 2007, 01:18 AM
I want a bow...

-Asheth-
Dec 4, 2007, 01:20 AM
Why cant people get off it.

Switch to AT take 2 friends run True Darkness S2 and see if AT is broken. Or Solo Plains Overlord S2 with hiding in the cubby holes. Will you people get off it. I seen diga doing 3500 at 31+ everyone has there thing and FT is power if you dont want power and want speed switch to AT.

I am an acrotecher the new missions are a joke seriously for anyone run them. Now go and run those 2 missions especially True Darkness even with a full party it is still not easy not difficult but this is a old mission and you will be able to get some idea of how the new missions will be on s2 difficulty.

Or run regular Fakis dark satellite and Hive on S2 with a full party and then you will see where a AT fits in the grand scheme of things ALONG SIDE FT.

Nyreal
Dec 4, 2007, 01:20 AM
When a level 10 AT has only 60 less ATP than a level 11 WT, something is terrible wrong.

-Asheth-
Dec 4, 2007, 01:26 AM
On 2007-12-03 22:20, Nyreal wrote:
When a level 10 AT has only 60 less ATP than a level 11 WT, something is terrible wrong.



Except a AT cant use a Spear and Dus Majarra or doesnt get level 30 skills and isnt doing 1000 per hit with the second part of the whip combo at level 12 because why? *Gasp* they dont get level 30 skills and getting skills to 21+ matter?!?

Or all the other classes that are capable of melee dont have a weapon selection that is much better than a AT? Because unless your running around with Deva-Zashi's and Blackhearts you arent packing major power. Pssst glance at a WT using a whip sometime or a FF or a FIG sometime and look at there damage and look at yours or use a card and have a AF equip a card compare damage and then bow head in shame.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-12-03 22:28 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-12-03 22:29 ]</font>

Bitey
Dec 4, 2007, 01:28 AM
Just wait until more people actually start getting techniques and skills to far higher levels than an AT can, then the AT will not seen so unbalanced anymore.

While I am not too sure about techniques, my level 45/5 Wartecher can out damage my friend's lvl 110/15 Acrotecher using the Whip PA; his at level 20 and mine at level 30.

watashiwa
Dec 4, 2007, 01:31 AM
I'm crossing my fingers for FT at higher job levels, plus the rod boost at a later point, to make them the clear cut winner for tech damage.

I mean, they're already the highest tech damage, but not by much, I don't think....

I need to compare the current Acrotecher 15 stats and Fortetecher 15 stats at the same character base level on the same race/sex combo to get a somewhat image of how things might unfold once they unlock jobs to 20..

20 FT might have a really great TP over AT 20... plus with the rod boost, they might be owntastic.. WHO KNOWS?

I still like playing FT, though. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

-Asheth-
Dec 4, 2007, 01:37 AM
Or you can get your Techs to 40 and compare your diga and a AT level 30 Diga I bet 500k meseta that you would win and buy a substantial amount too.

hewitt
Dec 4, 2007, 01:52 AM
On 2007-12-03 22:18, Zorafim wrote:
I want a bow...


See? I'm not the only one that misses their bows D:

MSAksion
Dec 4, 2007, 04:18 AM
Lets not talk damage- lets talk status - an AT can cause status much faster than an FT hands down. If damage were not a factor i would be an AT with a shock whip and a madoog RAZONDE could shock an enemy faster than an FT trying to raise a Staff high its not even funny.

WAND - throw Diga. Immediately switch to madoog and fire off a RAZONDE to shock 3 enemies and then the Diga hits the leader.

All that in the same time it took an FT to find the right Staff and fire off the correct spells - the monsters have already been dispursed and the AT has gone to melee mode while FT is still fumbling for spells.

The damage between them is not wide enough and AT could overtake FT simply through double-TECH-Ing and melee damage as well as cause status on 2 squads of monsters.

-Asheth-
Dec 4, 2007, 04:22 AM
On 2007-12-04 01:18, MSAksion wrote:
Lets not talk damage- lets talk status - an AT can cause status much faster than an FT hands down. If damage were not a factor i would be an AT with a shock whip and a madoog RAZONDE could shock an enemy faster than an FT trying to raise a Staff high its not even funny.

WAND - throw Diga. Immediately switch to madoog and fire off a RAZONDE to shock 3 enemies and then the Diga hits the leader.

All that in the same time it took an FT to find the right Staff and fire off the correct spells - the monsters have already been dispursed and the AT has gone to melee mode while FT is still fumbling for spells.

The damage between them is not wide enough and AT could overtake FT simply through double-TECH-Ing and melee damage as well as cause status on 2 squads of monsters.




Yea thats true but the only SE that matters now is Freeze, Stun, shock. Everything dies so fast SE is just something to do just to do it.

Miyoko
Dec 4, 2007, 05:19 AM
Freeze, stun, and shock are all pretty useless, too, when you can just keep enemies stun-locked with flinch. :l SEs as a whole are just pretty useless now.

Edit: Granted, I should probably mention that I'm a 106/15 Fortegunner with most my bullets at 30 or higher, so, I'm not sure how well my opinion holds for lower levels. I can't imagine it being too different though.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Miyoko on 2007-12-04 02:43 ]</font>

-Asheth-
Dec 4, 2007, 05:23 AM
On 2007-12-04 02:19, Miyoko wrote:
Freeze, stun, and shock are all pretty useless, too, when you can just keep enemies stun-locked with flinch. :l SEs as a whole are just pretty useless now.



True

Miyoko
Dec 4, 2007, 05:39 AM
Granted, I should probably mention that I'm a 106/15 Fortegunner with most my bullets at 30 or higher, so, I'm not sure how well my opinion holds for lower levels. I can't imagine it being too different though.

Syl
Dec 4, 2007, 06:14 AM
On 2007-12-04 01:18, MSAksion wrote:
Lets not talk damage- lets talk status - an AT can cause status much faster than an FT hands down. If damage were not a factor i would be an AT with a shock whip and a madoog RAZONDE could shock an enemy faster than an FT trying to raise a Staff high its not even funny.

WAND - throw Diga. Immediately switch to madoog and fire off a RAZONDE to shock 3 enemies and then the Diga hits the leader.

All that in the same time it took an FT to find the right Staff and fire off the correct spells - the monsters have already been dispursed and the AT has gone to melee mode while FT is still fumbling for spells.

The damage between them is not wide enough and AT could overtake FT simply through double-TECH-Ing and melee damage as well as cause status on 2 squads of monsters.




FT really isn't about applying SE's though. AT is fast because they can do ok damage and support the party via support techs and applying SE's via whips. Too bad everything just dies so quickly in a full party that SE's are a joke >_>

And you make it sound waaay too biased towards AT. At that rate, I could have my taxes done before this supposed fT takes out their rod.

Remedy
Dec 4, 2007, 08:13 AM
On 2007-12-03 22:14, SylviaEspada wrote:
But yeah, rods are pretty awesomeWhen they're all out-DPSed by a Wand/Madoog using FT? Not really. =/

(Disclaimer: PWand not withstanding.)

CelestialBlade
Dec 4, 2007, 08:18 AM
SEs will matter again when S2-variants of the new AoI missions begin to emerge. Just give it time.

bahk
Dec 4, 2007, 08:19 AM
On 2007-12-04 05:18, Typheros wrote:
SEs will matter again when S2-variants of the new AoI missions begin to emerge. Just give it time.



I really hope so. Come on, level 250 monsters!

Remedy
Dec 4, 2007, 08:20 AM
I hope so. =/

I'm giving Remedy a well-deserved break, too. I abandoned one moral crusade when I went to the dark side and took up wands and madoogs, so I figured I'd just go one step further and make an alt.

Female newman Acrofighter, she's very fun. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Nuclearranger
Dec 4, 2007, 11:54 AM
At 50 PAs im sure fT will take the lead in DPS again..

Remedy
Dec 4, 2007, 12:03 PM
Over ATs? Maybe, IF they don't get level 30 skills.

Over anyone else? Hah.

Indica
Dec 4, 2007, 02:43 PM
On 2007-12-03 22:07, hewitt wrote:
What about bows... =/



That's one thing I dont like about AT. Sould have A rank at least

Soukosa
Dec 4, 2007, 04:51 PM
On 2007-12-03 22:02, Fredrick wrote:
When I first heard about AT I thought they were basically going to be a weaker, more exciting alternative to FT.

Oh yes, the S grade melee weapons mean completely nothing. The job is meant purely to use techs http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif



But... their TP really isn't that much lower, and that combined with the increased speed and lv 40 retnis (sp) I wouldn't be surprised if there was no damage difference at all.

A 254 TP difference isn't that much lower (on a lv 110/15 female newman)? What speed increase? It only applies to the casting animation. That hardly closes any gap formed by that TP difference and 10 levels of techs.



In fact it seems like ATs is the way FTs should have been from the start... and all FT now does it seal rods and lv 40 attack techs from ATs.

FTs should be meleeing? FTs really don't make that good of support either, being so fragile. If they weren't so fragile, they'd be broken with such strong support and strong techs.



I think there should be a much bigger difference. FTs should be either way more powerful, or ATs should be way weaker and faster.

Ever play an AT? Probably not.



Honestly with the way things are right now, I don't see why the two classes can't be merged. Speed of a Acro, Lv40 caps on all techs, and S rank madoog whip fan rod wand, and adjust the TP so that the class wouldn't be ridiculously good. I mean that wouldn't hurt the game at all. All it would do is make things a lot more exciting.

Madoog is over rated. Why does FT need S grade whip? Yeah, you have no idea what AT is even about.

Kinako78
Dec 4, 2007, 05:00 PM
On 2007-12-04 02:39, Miyoko wrote:
Granted, I should probably mention that I'm a 106/15 Fortegunner with most my bullets at 30 or higher, so, I'm not sure how well my opinion holds for lower levels. I can't imagine it being too different though.



Well, it is, Miyo. When Zel and I did Awoken Serpent A last night, the status effects my whips inflicted made quite a bit of difference.

Kylie
Dec 4, 2007, 06:53 PM
Well, you're not alone, apparently. But I agree for the most part... AT should be downgraded on its TP, and AF should also be downgraded on a few things. I always thought they sacrificed power for speed, but not so much anymore. And it really make their counterparts (FI and FT) obsolete or just the same in many areas... other than s rank / weapon selection.

LS_Aksion
Dec 4, 2007, 08:01 PM
AT/AF: too fast, overpowered & their equipment unreasonably awesome? I cant argure with the results tho hehe

SolomonGrundy
Dec 4, 2007, 09:38 PM
many many techs are not about casting time (dam techs, Nos techs, regreants, megiverse). With these techs the only thing that matters is pp (fTs get a reduction), damage (FT+rod = win), and range (also larger for a FT).

Couple that with a few example of increased SE (megids and damegids come to mind), and it's easy to see that FT has a place.

Aviendha
Dec 5, 2007, 02:30 AM
On 2007-12-03 22:26, -Asheth- wrote:

On 2007-12-03 22:20, Nyreal wrote:
When a level 10 AT has only 60 less ATP than a level 11 WT, something is terrible wrong.



Except a AT cant use a Spear and Dus Majarra or doesnt get level 30 skills and isnt doing 1000 per hit with the second part of the whip combo at level 12 because why? *Gasp* they dont get level 30 skills and getting skills to 21+ matter?!?

Or all the other classes that are capable of melee dont have a weapon selection that is much better than a AT? Because unless your running around with Deva-Zashi's and Blackhearts you arent packing major power. Pssst glance at a WT using a whip sometime or a FF or a FIG sometime and look at there damage and look at yours or use a card and have a AF equip a card compare damage and then bow head in shame.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-12-03 22:28 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-12-03 22:29 ]</font>

It doesn't matter that AT can't use stronger melee weapons and has a lvl 20 Skill cap, they still outdamage FT by a mile. FT Diga does some big numbarz, when it crits, which is a lot less than Spinning Strike Crits (every time you want it to) and also a hell of a lot slower. AT vs. FT balance is not the real problem though. Tech damage and Rod usefulness are the problem, and one of those we know is going to be fixed, so let's just give this argument a rest until then, at least.

Oh, and Twin Pistol>Rifle>Bow for DPS, and since SE is pointless, I don't know why you would want a bow other than for looks. They are pretty cool.

Zael
Dec 5, 2007, 02:35 AM
Yes. Twin Handgun outdamages that Bow by a long shot.

Sexy_Raine
Dec 5, 2007, 03:07 AM
AT Twin handguns suck though. Card/fan is far better in every way. My insei-shiki on most enemies in white beasts do 280 damage x 3 with lv31 shifta, not to mention it can auto-aim. Card can hit from a pretty far distance too. With this said, AT lv20 card makes FT lv30 bow look like shit.

Fortetecher is useless right now, because AT has much better survivabilty, better speed and better options, add lv40 support too.

Anyone who says the 2 are balanced right now need to shut the fuck up, and go play FT for yourself. Scrubby ass lv40 alts don't count either



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2007-12-05 00:12 ]</font>

beatrixkiddo
Dec 5, 2007, 03:15 AM
No guys, you don't know how to play AT. Only Soukosa does http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Shadow_Wing
Dec 5, 2007, 03:43 AM
Am I like the only one who parties with fTs that don't mind I own the support role?

Anyways, I'm kinda tired of the QQing of fTs on AT, and I'll be fucking damn I play AT as a techer like class? I can't help but think it's like comparing apples to oranges when you see me play AT vs that of conventional fT. I play AT as a battle supporter, healing, buffing while adding damage into the fray, the main thing is I'm a support class before I'm a damage dealer, something fT was half of but now even less so now.

fT is now classified more so as a Tech Damage Dealer, generally speaking in MMOs magic spike damager but that isn't really so in PSU now is it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif, and here in lies the problem. Aviendha is correct in saying

Tech damage and Rod usefulness are the problem, and one of those we know is going to be fixed, so let's just give this argument a rest until then, at least.
In that Tech damage is not amazing compared to that of melee currently and the main focal point of fT, the usage of rods and their superior natural TP is somewhat lacking due the tech damage falling behind that of melee by a considerable amount, however Rods will be improved upon at a later date so we'll see how that turns out.

I can't help but feel that fT's complaints about AT is way off, I don't play AT anywhere NEAR that of fT, so gawd STOP FUCKING QQing us. Getting tired of being classified as a force dam it =/



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-05 01:06 ]</font>

-Asheth-
Dec 5, 2007, 09:52 AM
On 2007-12-04 23:30, Aviendha wrote:

On 2007-12-03 22:26, -Asheth- wrote:

On 2007-12-03 22:20, Nyreal wrote:
When a level 10 AT has only 60 less ATP than a level 11 WT, something is terrible wrong.



Except a AT cant use a Spear and Dus Majarra or doesnt get level 30 skills and isnt doing 1000 per hit with the second part of the whip combo at level 12 because why? *Gasp* they dont get level 30 skills and getting skills to 21+ matter?!?

Or all the other classes that are capable of melee dont have a weapon selection that is much better than a AT? Because unless your running around with Deva-Zashi's and Blackhearts you arent packing major power. Pssst glance at a WT using a whip sometime or a FF or a FIG sometime and look at there damage and look at yours or use a card and have a AF equip a card compare damage and then bow head in shame.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-12-03 22:28 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Asheth- on 2007-12-03 22:29 ]</font>

It doesn't matter that AT can't use stronger melee weapons and has a lvl 20 Skill cap, they still outdamage FT by a mile. FT Diga does some big numbarz, when it crits, which is a lot less than Spinning Strike Crits (every time you want it to) and also a hell of a lot slower. AT vs. FT balance is not the real problem though. Tech damage and Rod usefulness are the problem, and one of those we know is going to be fixed, so let's just give this argument a rest until then, at least.

Oh, and Twin Pistol>Rifle>Bow for DPS, and since SE is pointless, I don't know why you would want a bow other than for looks. They are pretty cool.



Here I was comparing WT and AT not AT and FT.

Also anyone that gets upset at AT for outdamaging a FT with there melee. Should get upset at WT, FF, AF, and FI. Everyone knows melee outdoes tech damage right now when it comes to DPS.

Im a human AT and as I have said many times Melee is first Techs are second. If you have terrible melee because maybe you went newman AT then maybe you should switch. But it doesnt matter what race you are because ALL melee outdoes tech.

Cool test try a Newman WT bet it outdamages a FT because JA is broken bottomline.

AOTI Melee>Techs unless you are a FT trying to out melee a Teching FT lol.

Kietrinia
Dec 5, 2007, 09:52 AM
On 2007-12-04 08:54, NuclearRanger wrote:
At 50 PAs im sure fT will take the lead in DPS again..Last I heard, Fortetechers aren't getting level 50 PAs in online mode, ever. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif


I personally think that when an AcroTecher starts leaving their support/melee role, then it makes any Fortetecher in the party (without a Har/Quick) feel a bit useless, especially if their attacks aren't at a decent level.

None of my Zonde spells are past level 15, so any run of Awakened Serpent was really depressing if an AcroTecher was in the group. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

It's kinda cruel making a ForteTecher with a staff find a Har/Quick so they can compete with the DPS of an AcroTecher.

Reipard
Dec 5, 2007, 09:58 AM
Last I heard, Fortetechers aren't getting level 50 PAs in online mode, ever.

When did Sega deny Fortetechers will get level 50 PAs in any form?

CelestialBlade
Dec 5, 2007, 10:01 AM
Fortetechers never had the lead in DPS at any point.

-Asheth-
Dec 5, 2007, 10:02 AM
On 2007-12-05 06:52, Kietrinia wrote:

On 2007-12-04 08:54, NuclearRanger wrote:
At 50 PAs im sure fT will take the lead in DPS again..Last I heard, Fortetechers aren't getting level 50 PAs in online mode, ever. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif


I personally think that when an AcroTecher starts leaving their support/melee role, then it makes any Fortetecher in the party (without a Har/Quick) feel a bit useless, especially if their attacks aren't at a decent level.

None of my Zonde spells are past level 15, so any run of Awakened Serpent was really depressing if an AcroTecher was in the group. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

It's kinda cruel making a ForteTecher with a staff find a Har/Quick so they can compete with the DPS of an AcroTecher.



Or how about the DPS of a every class capable of melee in the game something everyone seems to forget.

I wouldnt be suprised if a GT using melee couldnt outdamage a FT.

Come on switch jobs or something people unless they fix JA melee will continue to beat techs period end of story.


Either you love teching enough to stick with it or you switch jobs thats the bottomline they are not going to switch it.

Side note if you go into Uni 1 and run randoms you run into alot of FT.

You are a Forte-class you dont see FF saying they want to go around Gunning and you dont see FG saying they want to go swinging a Axe.

So Forte or move on jeez.

If you are AT and only using techs=fail

Esufer
Dec 5, 2007, 10:02 AM
On 2007-12-05 06:58, Reipard wrote:

Last I heard, Fortetechers aren't getting level 50 PAs in online mode, ever.

When did Sega deny Fortetechers will get level 50 PAs in any form?


If we're going by that reasoning, when did they say they are getting them?

Mewn
Dec 5, 2007, 10:15 AM
What sucks about fT is how their signature weapon not only is of a currently sucky weapon type, but also needs 30, YES THIRTY, of a certain reclusive itemu. No idea what said itemu is though.

Esufer
Dec 5, 2007, 10:16 AM
On 2007-12-05 07:15, Mewn wrote:
What sucks about fT is how their signature weapon not only is of a currently sucky weapon type, but also needs 30, YES THIRTY, of a certain reclusive itemu. No idea what said itemu is though.


Isn't Itemu that guy from YuGiOh?

Hurhurhur.

FT'll be cracking when the rod speed boost comes through, just you wait and see!

Sekani
Dec 5, 2007, 10:28 AM
At the moment, acrotecher is not a support class. The entire point of its existence is for noobs to run around spamming their S-rank whips and Spinning Strike all day, then feeling awesome cause they can have their mags heal them for more than a dimate.

Hopefully when we get enemies with more than 5000 HP and acrotechers discover that they're getting outdamaged by every other class in the game, maybe then they'll learn their place.

Let's talk about the true balance issue here, which is how much easier it is to find Diad(u)s than Catilium. That's totally unfair http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

-Asheth-
Dec 5, 2007, 10:28 AM
On 2007-12-05 07:16, Esufer wrote:

On 2007-12-05 07:15, Mewn wrote:
What sucks about fT is how their signature weapon not only is of a currently sucky weapon type, but also needs 30, YES THIRTY, of a certain reclusive itemu. No idea what said itemu is though.


Isn't Itemu that guy from YuGiOh?

Hurhurhur.

FT'll be cracking when the rod speed boost comes through, just you wait and see!



Is that what the fix is just a speed boost?

-Asheth-
Dec 5, 2007, 10:45 AM
On 2007-12-05 07:28, Sekani wrote:
At the moment, acrotecher is not a support class. The entire point of its existence is for noobs to run around spamming their S-rank whips and Spinning Strike all day, then feeling awesome cause they can have their mags heal them for more than a dimate.

Hopefully when we get enemies with more than 5000 HP and acrotechers discover that they're getting outdamaged by every other class in the game, maybe then they'll learn their place.

Let's talk about the true balance issue here, which is how much easier it is to find Diad(u)s than Catilium. That's totally unfair http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



I dont think most Acrotechers dont know where they should fit in the Grand Scheme of things I think its the FT's that dont know where they fit in the grand scheme and complain about how they feel AT is broken when its not. Right now Melee is the easiest and most effective option available to all classes that can do decent damage bottomline.


Go full party Sacred Stream S take a AT with you watch him spam whip and watch numbers barely reach 200 per hit. But SE will spread without doubt but nobody runs Sacred Stream really.

Sekani
Dec 5, 2007, 11:00 AM
On 2007-12-05 07:45, -Asheth- wrote:
I dont think most Acrotechers dont know where they should fit in the Grand Scheme of things I think its the FT's that dont know where they fit in the grand scheme and complain about how they feel AT is broken when its not.
On this I'll agree with you, but with the present mechanics of the game (e.g. weak-ass enemies) valuing killing speed over everything else, it's hard to see where a fortetecher fits in.



Go full party Sacred Stream S take a AT with you watch him spam whip and watch numbers barely reach 200 per hit. But SE will spread without doubt but nobody runs Sacred Stream really.

Nobody does full parties anymore, really. There's no point to having more than four people. As for SE, I find that whips are unimpressive next to crossbows.

Sgt_Shligger
Dec 5, 2007, 11:11 AM
On 2007-12-05 08:00, Sekani wrote:
As for SE, I find that whips are unimpressive next to crossbows.



Newsflash: Guns are supposed to lay down status effects better. Why the Hell have rangers around when some whip guy can go nuts and do more damage? Whips are the only melee weapons that can deal reliable(Fryign Pan, Battle Fan, etc.) status effects.

My crossbow better not be outperformed by some melee weapon.

majan
Dec 5, 2007, 11:48 AM
oh,hey man.what's up.welcome to the discussion that's been causing flamewars on these boards for a couple of months.

but yes,you of course have made a valid point and its something that pisses off devoted fortetechers day in day out.its frustrating knowing that you put all the work into and enjoy playing fortetecher so much only to be more or less equalled by a class that is unbalancingly versatile.

the rod buff should settle some of these issues but I am hoping that in the future sega does more to close this gap because it is rather annoying to play a fortetecher while being outshined by another teching class that techs just about as good as you do while doing EVERYTHING ELSE 10 times better.

that's just my stance.the master classes will most likely fix this problem.I suggest we wait for some of that info before we get too crazy over this.

pure evidence of this is the sheer rarity of fortetechers ever since the expansion hit.diversity rocks,but this class is just about flatlining.

Mawile
Dec 5, 2007, 01:57 PM
On 2007-12-05 07:28, Sekani wrote:
At the moment, acrotecher is not a support class. The entire point of its existence is for noobs to run around spamming their S-rank whips and Spinning Strike all day, then feeling awesome cause they can have their mags heal them for more than a dimate.

Hopefully when we get enemies with more than 5000 HP and acrotechers discover that they're getting outdamaged by every other class in the game, maybe then they'll learn their place.


Misdreavus is level 47 and her resta is only like, 15? And heals for about 1200. Level 10 AT.

I like AT. The only few problems i have with it is that at least the ATP could have been far better than it is now, or S rank whips could have way, way more ATP than their A rank counterparts. I love my Vish Adac, but the terrible damage is annoying. The speed is great, and my EVA lets me stay up front more.

It's just the damage that's pretty bad. Even if i went FT, i wouldn't use staffs because I don't like any of them. AT is as close to my ideal class for a magic user i want.

Oh i never played Wartecher however. I should give it a go one day.

Shadow_Wing
Dec 5, 2007, 03:24 PM
Whips are alright where they're at, it's my highest potential damaging weapon in my arsenal, just happens to be situational.

fG Edit: Whips aren't exactly reliable compared to guns when it comes to SE. Sigh why am I like the most misunderstood class ever -_-

Tech Edit: I still wouldn't touch techs, it's even worse as a CAST AT than a CAST fT, so I can't see how techs are any good damage wise for ATs <<;


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-05 12:34 ]</font>

Shiro_Ryuu
Dec 5, 2007, 06:16 PM
When I get on my female newman Acrotecher, I actually BUFF and HEAL my friends. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif
I use my whips, but mostly for SEs. I also use melee when I need them and techs when I need them, but I do actually try to support.

panzer_unit
Dec 5, 2007, 06:24 PM
On 2007-12-05 08:48, majan wrote:
but yes,you of course have made a valid point and its something that pisses off devoted fortetechers day in day out.its frustrating knowing that you put all the work into and enjoy playing fortetecher so much only to be more or less equalled by a class that is unbalancingly versatile.


Uh... welcome to nine months ago with Fortefighter versus Fighgunner? fF's barely more powerful for ATP, has less accuracy & evasion, and the only weapon they have in their favor is axe which are crap while double saber is great. Hmm.

It took a while but Sega actually sorted it out. Give 'em a while.

majan
Dec 5, 2007, 06:53 PM
On 2007-12-05 15:24, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-12-05 08:48, majan wrote:
but yes,you of course have made a valid point and its something that pisses off devoted fortetechers day in day out.its frustrating knowing that you put all the work into and enjoy playing fortetecher so much only to be more or less equalled by a class that is unbalancingly versatile.


Uh... welcome to nine months ago with Fortefighter versus Fighgunner? fF's barely more powerful for ATP, has less accuracy & evasion, and the only weapon they have in their favor is axe which are crap while double saber is great. Hmm.

It took a while but Sega actually sorted it out. Give 'em a while.




firstly,your right in that sega fixed that,and thats why I mentioned that master classes will probably sort out these problems.but lets hope that this rod buff will be a due fix,because AT's are much more of a problem to ft's than figs could ever have been to fortefighters.

however,my guess is that you have never used a fighgunner.yes,I am talking pre-expansion.firstly,fortefigher had quite a mentionable ATP advantage over figh.the only way to really max out the ATP potential of fighgunner is of course to use a beast.doublesabers are,to my knowledge,the lowest accuracy weapons in the entire game.so throw him a cati/hit or hard/hit.but that uses up the armslot that a hard/power or solid/power can be thrown into instead,where a cast or human wont need the acuracy boost as much and will be able to stack up on raw power and ultimately perform the class better than a beast.so the ATP never really goes very high beyond a beast fighgunner.

however,a balanced beast fortefghter on the other hand will have a huge,tremendously huge advantage of even the most powerful balanced fighgunner.class/race bonus of a beast will send the atp high further than any other class in the game can touch it without a hard/power charge.but then,you throw a hard/power on the beast fortefighter and you have THE ONE elite in melee damage.period,end of discussion.

now on the other hand,this isnt the case.an AT with level 4 buffs and a sori/tech charge will have..
slightly higher tp than a fortetecher base,and a faster cast rate.to balance that,throw the fortetecher a me or har quick,where he loses tp,putting it at a greater disadvantage.so throw them higher level tech pa's.those are are boosted by a whopping 10% at max.the level 4 retier and sori/tech will far outweigh level 3 retier with a quick-using ft with higher level technics.if it doesnt outweigh it and my mental math is wrong,which of course it could be,it will come much,much too close for there to be a distinguishable difference,and much much too close to justify the versatility associated with acrotecher.

even though fighgunner vs fortefighter was a little questionable,there was still a clear answer that fortefigher held the ultimate edge with melee damage and that was the end of discussion.here,there is a discussion,and it seems to end with acrotecher holding a slight if not equal edge to fortetecher.it makes no sense,and this is why devout fortetecher players,as in people who enjoy playing teching classes,are annoyed at this imbalance because they are being outshined in their specialty by a class that is more versatile.this never happened with figh and ff.if it did,then it was a problem with the weaponry.the stats dont make it possible any other way.

but as you said,and as the master classes will suggest,and as the "rod buff" is promising,this discussion will be fixed.I just cant wait to hear what this rod buff business is all about.

Shadow_Wing
Dec 5, 2007, 07:02 PM
devout fortetecher players,as in people who enjoy playing teching classes,are annoyed at this imbalance because they are being outshined in their specialty by a class that is more versatile.

Your specialty isn't support. Nuff said. You not being outshined by a class that has your speciality, it's that fT never did great tech damage to begin with in AoI.

I'm tired of defending AT as NOT A FUCKING FT cause we are not a fT, they have different specialties not the same. Noteably, I WOULDN'T for the life of me wear a sori / tech, what's the point? AT is about speed, and a har/quick is a god send compared to any other head unit out there, EVEN AS A MALE CAST, you know the one with the LOWEST TP in the game.

I'm really getting tired of saying the same argument to fTs that think we're fTs but we're definately on the other side of the spectrum. Play with a good AT, then play with a good fT, then play with both, then u'll see we're not the same.

fTs QQing on us is misplaced, your grudge isn't with us, it's with how the game works. AT != fT in any sense of the word, we didn't make you obsolete, you just happen to get the short end of the stick when they improved melee but not tech damage in any way.

Additionally, no fighter in their right mind would wear a Hard / Power Charge <<; my friend used it once, took it off mid way for his giga / skill save. Solid / Power S isn't viable cause the ata hit is actually pretty noticable, and the perfect power units are Hard / Knight and Cati / Power for fF

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-05 16:08 ]</font>

YUKI_N
Dec 5, 2007, 07:20 PM
I propose acrotecher be reduced to level 20 attack techs http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Oh and the rod boost isn't going to be a speed bonus, its silly to think that it will be, speed is acros game. It'll be a boost to the elemental bonus you get when sticking 4 of the same element on it. Doing that would reduce FTs ability to support, and (hopefully) give them a tremendous damage boost to make it worthwhile

Shadow_Wing
Dec 5, 2007, 07:21 PM
lol stick us with lvl 10 attack techs, and I wouldn't care XD

majan
Dec 5, 2007, 07:43 PM
On 2007-12-05 16:02, Shadow_Wing wrote:

devout fortetecher players,as in people who enjoy playing teching classes,are annoyed at this imbalance because they are being outshined in their specialty by a class that is more versatile.

Your specialty isn't support. Nuff said. You not being outshined by a class that has your speciality, it's that fT never did great tech damage to begin with in AoI.

I'm tired of defending AT as NOT A FUCKING FT cause we are not a fT, they have different specialties not the same. Noteably, I WOULDN'T for the life of me wear a sori / tech, what's the point? AT is about speed, and a har/quick is a god send compared to any other head unit out there, EVEN AS A MALE CAST, you know the one with the LOWEST TP in the game.

I'm really getting tired of saying the same argument to fTs that think we're fTs but we're definately on the other side of the spectrum. Play with a good AT, then play with a good fT, then play with both, then u'll see we're not the same.

fTs QQing on us is misplaced, your grudge isn't with us, it's with how the game works. AT != fT in any sense of the word, we didn't make you obsolete, you just happen to get the short end of the stick when they improved melee but not tech damage in any way.

Additionally, no fighter in their right mind would wear a Hard / Power Charge <<; my friend used it once, took it off mid way for his giga / skill save. Solid / Power S isn't viable cause the ata hit is actually pretty noticable, and the perfect power units are Hard / Knight and Cati / Power for fF

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-05 16:08 ]</font>


Im not talking about support,and it doesnt matter if you personally would never in your right mind use a sori tech.maybe someone else would,that is the point of speaking figuratively.

Im talking about the effect of the buffs on their O.O TP(translation:way too close to fortetechers) stat combined with generous level attack spells.if someone wanted to make the best of an acrotecher,that is,take full advatnage of everything,theyd throw the sori tech on him,which,with the speed boost,would put them just about up to par with a fortetecher.with some well leveled attack spells,the acrotecher could balance the generous melee with awesome technic support.Ive been saying all along that an acrotecher,on paper,will essentially come entirely too close to equalling the technic performance of a fortetecher.though the classes were close,it was never a question of who did better melee potential with figh and ff.properly built,an acrotecher comes way,way,way too close to equalling or even surpassing a fortetechers tech potential.

but really,we are getting very carried away.rods are getting a boost,which will fix a large part of this problem.master classes will completely overhaul the way the game is balanced.I just hope that the 360 is not delayed in getting all this the way they were with getting the death penalty removed.

Shadow_Wing
Dec 5, 2007, 08:11 PM
But the problem is, yea sure the tech damage can help but it's pretty down right useless in most cases. Gispells have their limited uses to AT as well as the teir 1 spells but when it comes down to it AT use techs in a very limited way.

Paper and actual experience are 2 totally different things, yea we can get close to a fT's TP but the useage of atk spells vs that of melee damage, melee damage gets our favor. AT makes use of their support spells the most out of any tech, not only cause of A) Speed but B) their position relative to the rest of the party. They in the fray with the rest of the meleers and their support spells are easier to hit everyone than a fT would. Not to mention they can take a hit or two and not die.

A properly built AT doesn't bother with their TP, they play on their speed as their advantage, why Har / quick > Sori / force by miles. This is what bugs me the most fTs SAY we can match them in spell damage but in reality, the usage of spells is extremely limited imo (not only do fTs get 10 lvls above us in atk techs but also the avilaibity of rods which will be fixed soon enough XD), maybe it's due to my detriment but I'm sure even a AT newn can do more damage via melee than their techs as an AT. Not to mention the maneuverability and mob control that comes with some of the 1 handed weapons prove to be INVALUBLE to AT vs that of techs.

The only TP modifier comes to support spells are the resta line, and even then I'll still use a har / quick over a sori / force, so what my restas deal 1200 HP (so far, not quite 21+ XD) and my Giresta deals about 2500 as a Male Cast, it does the job in the end.

erickarim
Dec 5, 2007, 08:35 PM
they are fixing the rods >>? how ?

Dhylec
Dec 5, 2007, 08:38 PM
Another put to rest.