How to Fix Everything

[Kimil]

^Title^
Disclaimer: This is my opinion fro what I've seen

Figunner, Protranser, Guntecher and finally Wartecher (with the 2 upcoming S ranks) are fine and dandy.

Everything else needs some tweeking...

How to fix Fortefighter:
-Fix the Slicer PA, 'Chikki' and then everything with this class is fine.

How to fix Fortegunner:
-Improve Rifles (maybe a firing rate increase?)
-Give them a firing rate increase with ALL guns

How to fix Fortetecher:
-Improve Rods ( which is actually happening )
-See Acrotecher

How to fix Acrofighter:
-Fix the Slicer PA, 'Chikki'
-Lower their stats a bit (Wartecher is supposed to be the best survivable Hunter and Acrofighter an agile hunter with heightened reflexes... so why do Acrofighters beat all classes but Fortefighter in Defence?)

How to fix Acrotecher:
-Remove S rank Wands (Why? this will fix their problems with teching damage being too high compared to FT, plus they are supposed to be using their magic beside their melee weapons ie: whips and single daggers with a Madoog. Not to mention they are supposed to to specialize in support techs... so why do they need the Wand (relatively high TP low PP). Not like ppl would miss S rank Wands... Sheldote , the A rank Wand, has kick ass TP =/

Then all's good in the world.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Where's the "give WT 30 support so it isn't useless" part?

[StkDrowsy]

How to fix Fortetecher:
-Improve Rods ( which is actually happening )
-See Acrotecher
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree you make sense....im not going to kill you

[Kimil]

People grow up I guess
Not everyone though.

Staying away from unneeded hostilities, Wartecher doesn't need and shouldn't have lvl 30 support. At this point All I'd really want is slightly higher ATP (so we aren't rivalled by PT or AT >_> ) or higher TP. But we don't need it.

[amtalx]

On Fortegunner:
I don't really think that Rifles need a boost. Not a serious one anyway. The only thing that needs to happen eventually is that Rifle damage needs to exceed Twin Handgun damage, or at least break even. We have yet to see higher rank Rifles perform though, so who knows. Maybe ST has something up their sleeve. Either that, or give us SE5. Increasing our rate of fire would make us too powerful.

[Rizen]

On 2007-12-04 08:53, Kimil wrote:
How to fix Fortegunner:
-Improve Rifles (maybe a firing rate increase?)
-Give them a firing rate increase with ALL guns

*thinks about the Seed Guardian's Rifles*

Tempting....

[Remedy]

To fix Fortecher:
-Increase the TP modifier of all spells at 31+ by about 10%
-Adjust Rods to be useful (probably a 30% TP increase and 15-20% PP increase)
-Allow spells to hit multiple hitzones of large enemies (this should apply for all classes with offensive spells, mind you)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Remedy on 2007-12-04 09:28 ]</font>

[StkDrowsy]

[quote]On 2007-12-04 09:27, Remedy wrote:
To fix Fortecher:
-Increase the TP modifier of all spells at 31+ by about 10%
-Adjust Rods to be useful (probably a 30% TP increase and 15-20% PP increase)
-Allow spells to hit multiple hitzones of large enemies (this should apply for all classes with offensive spells, mind you)
------------------------------
I was sad when i hit diga level 31....
theres a bunch of good ideas,
which spells you think would be able to hit multi zones? Ra?, Gi? Dam?

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-04 09:27, Remedy wrote:
To fix Fortecher:
-Increase the TP modifier of all spells at 31+ by about 10%
-Adjust Rods to be useful (probably a 30% TP increase and 15-20% PP increase)
-Allow spells to hit multiple hitzones of large enemies (this should apply for all classes with offensive spells, mind you)



That's WAAAAAAY too much. You're a techer not a one man army. Just because techers are physically frail doens't mean they should be able to wipe the floor with everything before it gets within 10 feet.

[Kimil]

On 2007-12-04 09:32, amtalx wrote:

On 2007-12-04 09:27, Remedy wrote:
To fix Fortecher:
-Increase the TP modifier of all spells at 31+ by about 10%
-Adjust Rods to be useful (probably a 30% TP increase and 15-20% PP increase)
-Allow spells to hit multiple hitzones of large enemies (this should apply for all classes with offensive spells, mind you)



That's WAAAAAAY too much. You're a techer not a one man army. Just because techers are physically frail doens't mean they should be able to wipe the floor with everything before it gets within 10 feet.



Agreed. The first point you made though is on the right track...

make 31+ Attack Spells better.

[Golto]

Just wait for the master types info.

[Remedy]

On 2007-12-04 09:32, amtalx wrote:
That's WAAAAAAY too much. You're a techer not a one man army. Just because techers are physically frail doens't mean they should be able to wipe the floor with everything before it gets within 10 feet.Practically every other MMO with a Mage-style class (ranged magical attacks, ridiculous frailty) does vastly more damage than meleers. PSO/U is the sole exception. *shrug*

And that's about how much of an improvement Rods (other than PWand) would need to be competitive with a Wand/Madoog combo. It won't happen, though, so they'll continue to be pointless and Serdote/Sato will continue to be the best thing to use outside of a Psycho.

[Iduno]

On 2007-12-04 09:01, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Where's the "give WT 30 support so it isn't useless" part?



I hope not otherwise we'll be pestered for support all the time by noobs that think and techer = walking trimates and rides

[Fredrick]

I don't think anything in this game should be fixed by lowering stats. This game is already far too slow and boring. They need to liven it up. The only stat decrease I would be in favor of is the TP on FT and AT... but ONLY if they significantly increased the casting speed. i.e see PSO.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-04 09:35, Remedy wrote:
Practically every other MMO with a Mage-style class (ranged magical attacks, ridiculous frailty) does vastly more damage than meleers. PSO/U is the sole exception. *shrug*



Their spells also don't have knockback, and they desperately need protection from other classes to avoid getting a 1st round KO.

[Remedy]

On 2007-12-04 09:38, Fredrick wrote:
i.e see PSO.What, you mean where techs did, if you were lucky, about 800-1200 each due to the inordinate amount of resistances? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Iduno]

o I forgot to mention but a few lvl 31 techs need fixing as they can completly send the game in to slow motion at times, the worst offender being dambarta

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-04 09:38, Fredrick wrote:
This game is already far too slow and boring. They need to liven it up.



wut? I can dispose of entire mobs in a mere handful of volleys on my own. It's too fast. It's to the point where my usual running crew splits up now because groups of more than 4 are too strong.

[Broodstar1337]

On 2007-12-04 09:38, Fredrick wrote:
I don't think anything in this game should be fixed by lowering stats. This game is already far too slow and boring. They need to liven it up. The only stat decrease I would be in favor of is the TP on FT and AT... but ONLY if they significantly increased the casting speed. i.e see PSO.



Yeah, that's a real good idea. Let's make FT's weaker than they already are...

[Laranas]

Which S ranks are WT's going to get, btw?

[Tamashi]

Fighgunner also gets slicers.

Capping Wartecher with level 20 buffs is was made people ditch it for Acrotecher. If you want to save the class as whole then level 30 buffs would be best.

Giving Fortegunner faster shots would only make it better then Guntecher, when the glitch to fire faster was around people still couldn't keep up with Dus Majarra. What makes you think an increase in speed would make it better then slicers?

Like you yourself said, everyone uses Madoogs anyway. How would removing something noone uses fix a class? Fortetecher needs a fix, acrotecher dosen't need a nerf.

[Aviva]

NOT having the high lvl buffs is what made me STAY Wartecher over AT...I will buff people when i have the chance....but if there is a mob and your buffs run out in the middle....OH WELL i am trying to kick ass not buff you...ya know?


and i love my bow

[Remedy]

On 2007-12-04 09:41, amtalx wrote:
Their spells also don't have knockback, and they desperately need protection from other classes to avoid getting a 1st round KO.The only spell with real knockback is Regrants. Everything else has minimal flinching. And FTs are fragile enough - I can take probably, at best, 5-6 hits from most common enemies (stuff like Vahras, Volfus, etc), so... *shrug*

[tei]

Not that anyone cares what I think... xD;; But, things I'd like to see...

*Some* special S-Rank Rods - spell piercing and locks onto multiple strike-points on big enemies. Possibly make these rods a slightly slower casting speed or higher pp cost.

Slicers & Whips - switch which classes get them. Call me old fashioned, but I always considered it the meleer's role in a team to be the one who gets up in the middle of a group of enemies and, while dealing okay damage, mainly not allowing any of the enemies to reach the ranged/support characters. And forces fit the midrange-high-damage-supernatural-photon-bendyness of slicers, but really don't have much of a place with getting in the middle of a huge mob and slowly spinning a whip around to knock them all back ^^;;

AcroFighter - either lower it's stats or raise the stats of.. most... other classes. o.o Even at level 1 it's got higher in all but 1 or 2 stats over every single other class (why's the speed class have more health and defense than classes like protranser or fighgunner? o.o), AND it levels quicker than even offline classes. O_o

All guns - something like Just Attack to give them variety, but not as strong as JA... maybe increased firing rate for certain classes/types, or allow certain types of guns like laser cannons to be charged.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-04 09:56, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 09:41, amtalx wrote:
Their spells also don't have knockback, and they desperately need protection from other classes to avoid getting a 1st round KO.The only spell with real knockback is Regrants. Everything else has minimal flinching. And FTs are fragile enough - I can take probably, at best, 5-6 hits from most common enemies (stuff like Vahras, Volfus, etc), so... *shrug*



Regrants is blowback (Lv.2 knockback, whatever you want to call it). The fact remains that you can still hold off impending doom with spells. If everything just zipped through enemies, and they would continue to come at you uninterruped, all those bonuses you asked for would be more than appropriate. You either get knockback/flinch/blowback and weaker spells, or stronger spells that afford you no protection. You can't have both.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: amtalx on 2007-12-04 10:08 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-04 09:35, Remedy wrote:
Practically every other MMO with a Mage-style class (ranged magical attacks, ridiculous frailty) does vastly more damage than meleers. PSO/U is the sole exception. *shrug*


One of the reasons I like PSU is that it's not just fanservice to casters like every other MMO.

Most of those games have complete BS game balance where the "glass cannons" are so much cannon that the glass part never comes into play except for the inevitable class that can turn invisible. Any sort of "regular" fighting class is just completely screwed. You stealth, you bolt, or you die to one of the above.

Maybe you should put up with living in a balanced game for a change.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-04 10:05 ]</font>

[Kimil]

On 2007-12-04 09:46, Laranas wrote:
Which S ranks are WT's going to get, btw?



Twin Claws and Knux

And I'm glad, because Twin Claws are actually good now =)
Knux I haven't tried...

[Laranas]

Hmm I didn't like Knuckles too much in the past, but Twin Claws is a good thing http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Remedy]

On 2007-12-04 10:04, panzer_unit wrote:
Maybe you should put up with living in a balanced game for a change.Are you ACTUALLY trying to claim that PSU is balanced? AHAHAHA, that's great. Do you do stand-up, too?

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-04 10:09, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 10:04, panzer_unit wrote:
Maybe you should put up with living in a balanced game for a change.Are you ACTUALLY trying to claim that PSU is balanced? AHAHAHA, that's great. Do you do stand-up, too?


Except for slicers, yeah, and even they could be ok if enemies weren't always lined up so that they catch twice as many targets as they should.

I'm not the one riding around in a wahmbulance all over the boards because I have to do Fortefighter damage on top of everything else for some insanely multi-purpose job.

[majan]

On 2007-12-04 09:33, Golto wrote:
Just wait for the master types info.



yes.while its odd that this is the wisest post in the entire thread,I am not surprised that it was overlooked.

golto has an extremely good point.master classes are going to be the be-all end-all of class debates,I'm sure.dont get me wrong I do not mean to overhype this,since its probably only going to be better stats and higher PA levels anyway(I just cant imagine them going much crazier than that.a FIGHMASTER seems like he will be the master of strike weapons,not awesome with melee,but can use half of the guns in the game too.),but yes I think that the "pure" expert classes will get their due attention when their 'master' counterparts emerge.every hybrid class got such an awesome boost when the expansion came out.once the master class information emerges,it'll be PSU episode 4: forteclasses strike back.

if they have level 50 PA info on the disc,it seems odd to me that theyd leave that untouched in online mode.someone was knid enough to make the display video and that was awesome.I say its a matter of time before we see fortetechers get level 50 techs,come master classes.that will be wat sets them apart from acro's.fortefighters and gunners will also receive due attention.majan's guess is that the master classes will have even more exaggerated stats catering to their classes strengths,and be the only classes in the game wiht level 50 skills,bullets,and techs.that would make a fair bit of sense.

but yes,most of hte fixes you suggest are plausible,and all of them will most likely be addressed, in some way shape or form,by the master classes.

[Kimil]

On 2007-12-04 10:09, Laranas wrote:
Hmm I didn't like Knuckles too much in the past, but Twin Claws is a good thing http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



Knuckles have gotten a boost like everything else though... so don't ocunt them out http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Remedy]

On 2007-12-04 10:15, panzer_unit wrote:
I'm not the one riding around in a wahmbulance all over the boards because I have to do Fortefighter damage on top of everything else for some insanely multi-purpose job.It's more a fact that Fortefighters should not be doing anywhere near as much damage as they are. They're the outliers on the bell curve of life.

Also, I just reread your post. FUCKING LOL at using PVP as a meter of balance. PVP is fucking stupid.

[amtalx]

With the exception of Slicers, this game is just about balanced. Obviously, there are small tweaks that can be made, but that's true of every ORPG in existence. No game will every be perfect. It just seems like you are looking for the days when techers ruled Gurhal, back when PSU was younger. Not too long ago, fGs ran the show. Now we play second fiddle. But thats good, because we shouldn't have been that close in DPS to fighters to begin with.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-04 10:20, Remedy wrote:
It's more a fact that Fortefighters should not be doing anywhere near as much damage as they are. They're the outliers on the bell curve of life.

Also, I just reread your post. FUCKING LOL at using PVP as a meter of balance. PVP is fucking stupid.


OH RIGHT. Silly me from taking balance from the action-oriented side of these games instead of the ridiculous turn based aggro-management PVE part.

I absolutely agree! ST should implement some gameplay system where everyone stands in a circle around the monster and fighters have to do taunts + some pathetic fraction of the mages' damage in order to keep the creature from turning around and two-shotting the clothie... YAY THATS FUN.

Fortefighters deserve their ATP for having nothing but a handgun as an alternative to melee. If ST balanced the class "properly" by giving them enough secondary options it would be exactly like Fighgunner... instead they do enough damage to brute force through rough situations.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-04 11:02 ]</font>

[Kylie]

Actually, I'd mainly weaken stats of weapons and classes, rather than boosting the weaker attributes. Why? Because too many of the new missions are pitifully easy, a lot of the bosses die too fast. I don't think we need anything highered stat-wise, but... HEL YEH, give WT their s ranks ASAP. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-04 10:15, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-12-04 10:09, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 10:04, panzer_unit wrote:
Maybe you should put up with living in a balanced game for a change.Are you ACTUALLY trying to claim that PSU is balanced? AHAHAHA, that's great. Do you do stand-up, too?


Except for slicers, yeah, and even they could be ok if enemies weren't always lined up so that they catch twice as many targets as they should.

I'm not the one riding around in a wahmbulance all over the boards because I have to do Fortefighter damage on top of everything else for some insanely multi-purpose job.


Slicers are not the only problem. FT's really do get the short end of the stick. GT is a better support class now, it's ridiculous. And tech damage is WAY too low.


On 2007-12-04 08:53, Kimil wrote:
^Title^
Disclaimer: This is my opinion fro what I've seen

Figunner, Protranser, Guntecher and finally Wartecher (with the 2 upcoming S ranks) are fine and dandy.

Everything else needs some tweeking...

How to fix Fortefighter:
-Fix the Slicer PA, 'Chikki' and then everything with this class is fine.

How to fix Fortegunner:
-Improve Rifles (maybe a firing rate increase?)
-Give them a firing rate increase with ALL guns

How to fix Fortetecher:
-Improve Rods ( which is actually happening )
-See Acrotecher

How to fix Acrofighter:
-Fix the Slicer PA, 'Chikki'
-Lower their stats a bit (Wartecher is supposed to be the best survivable Hunter and Acrofighter an agile hunter with heightened reflexes... so why do Acrofighters beat all classes but Fortefighter in Defence?)

How to fix Acrotecher:
-Remove S rank Wands (Why? this will fix their problems with teching damage being too high compared to FT, plus they are supposed to be using their magic beside their melee weapons ie: whips and single daggers with a Madoog. Not to mention they are supposed to to specialize in support techs... so why do they need the Wand (relatively high TP low PP). Not like ppl would miss S rank Wands... Sheldote , the A rank Wand, has kick ass TP =/

Then all's good in the world.


Fortegunner doesn't need anything except monsters with more HP so that status effects are more worthwhile.

Fighgunner gets slicer too, and its just as good on them. Slicers won't be as bad once we get enemies with more HP.

AF needs slightly lower ATP (the difference from FI is laughable) or lower defensive stats.

GT needs S-rank Cards.

WT and PT need more ATP, or AT needs less. AT's TP doesn't matter unless they fix tech damage. Taking S-rank wands away is pointless because Serdote/Magical Wand > S-rank Wands.

FT needs more DFP/HP or more EVP. More TP would be nice or Sonic Team could just FIX TECH DAMAGE. Rod boost better not suck either.

Almost every problem could be solved by making monster have at least 5x their current HP and fixing tech damage by either giving techs a universal speed boost or making them actually do good damage.

[Remedy]

*sniffs* Aha, I knew I smelled an embittered WoW Warrior.

And the only time you need an alternative to melee is against unreachable enemies: High-flying Zoonas and Vandas, and flying bosses (De Rol Le, Dimmagolus, and Onmagoug). That shouldn't entitle you to a vastly disproportionate RvR ratio.

[Kylie]

Actually, I'd mainly weaken stats of weapons and classes, rather than boosting the weaker attributes. Why? Because too many of the new missions are pitifully easy, a lot of the bosses die too fast. I don't think we need anything highered stat-wise, but... HEL YEH, give WT their s ranks ASAP. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Broodstar1337]

On 2007-12-04 10:59, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-12-04 10:20, Remedy wrote:
It's more a fact that Fortefighters should not be doing anywhere near as much damage as they are. They're the outliers on the bell curve of life.

Also, I just reread your post. FUCKING LOL at using PVP as a meter of balance. PVP is fucking stupid.


OH RIGHT. Silly me from taking balance from the action-oriented side of these games instead of the ridiculous turn based aggro-management PVE part.

I absolutely agree! ST should implement some gameplay system where everyone stands in a circle around the monster and fighters have to do taunts + some pathetic fraction of the mages' damage in order to keep the creature from turning around and two-shotting the clothie... YAY THATS FUN.

Fortefighters deserve their ATP for having nothing but a handgun as an alternative to melee. If ST balanced the class "properly" by giving them enough secondary options it would be exactly like Fighgunner... instead they got a big enough hammer that they can get through most situations by treating everything like a nail.



You hammer a nail too hard, you bust the wood underneath. That's exactly what Fortefighters have done to PSU.

[CelestialBlade]

On 2007-12-04 10:20, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 10:15, panzer_unit wrote:
I'm not the one riding around in a wahmbulance all over the boards because I have to do Fortefighter damage on top of everything else for some insanely multi-purpose job.It's more a fact that Fortefighters should not be doing anywhere near as much damage as they are. They're the outliers on the bell curve of life.

http://www.layer-infinity.net/seraphzero/what/nowemo.jpg

Forces and Rangers get to stand way back and punish enemies from afar, and any GOOD Force/Ranger should not be getting hit a whole lot due to this advantage. Tradeoff for surviveability and versatility is lower DPS. Slicers are broken as hell but other than that, Sega did a great job balancing the types.

I'm sorry Fortetechers don't get 9999 HP, 999 DFP, level 40 melee PAs, level 5000000 Support, and MadoogRodWands exclusively at S5 rank. The rest of us will enjoy our balanced game, kthx.

[MELGRIN]

On 2007-12-04 09:04, Kimil wrote:
People grow up I guess
Not everyone though.

Staying away from unneeded hostilities, Wartecher doesn't need and shouldn't have lvl 30 support. At this point All I'd really want is slightly higher ATP (so we aren't rivalled by PT or AT >_> ) or higher TP. But we don't need it.

omg shut up. its a forum you dont have to be all serious.

--
Mod edit: no need to call names

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dhylec on 2007-12-04 12:12 ]</font>

[Pillan]

I agree that Fortetecher should be buffed to deal damage around the range of Wartecher and Fortegunner. I'm expecting that to be around the extent of the rod buff, which would be around the 30% element Remedy suggested (mainly due to the element nerf).

Rifles really don't need any changes. I mean, what kind of balance would it be if they could deal more damage and more SE than twin handguns, all at a further range? Damage is the only advantage twin handguns have. Fortegunner as a whole is a fine class and doesn't need a speed boost to make it more powerful.

The easiest way to fix Fortefighter is to fix the slicer art. I'd even remove slicers entirely from the class. I mean, the main thing that balanced all the power Fortefighter has is that they had no range. So don't give them any ranged options and let them be kings of close combat, as the class description implies.

On slicers, no linear penetrating art for hunters should be stronger than Barta, much less a laser. Nerf it so the first move is 130% and the second is 140% at 40 and it will be fine. And they should lower the accuracy of slicers and their PAs to be on-par with handguns. Sonic Team just doesn't quite understand that they have to hammer hunters hard for using range on a close-combat class or they'll take the option, just like any smart person would.

Wartecher is fine as it is. Whips+Resta+debuffs make it balanced with everyone else. And if that wasn't enough, they get S twin claws and knuckles too.

Fighgunner is fine. Guntecher is fine. Protranser is fine, but they did go overboard with the S weapons.

Acrofighter is okay, but I still don't see why it can use more 2 hand weapons than twin sabers, as was true in the beta. Part of the reason its stats worked so well is because they were limited to one hand weapons. Now they get the rediculous mods of twin claw and fist PAs at higher speeds than Fighgunner.

Acrotecher really doesn't need S wands, but has them anyway. It really doesn't hurt because they max at 90% of an fT's tech damage from the modifer and tech level difference in a party (that's completely ignoring the base TP difference). That's around the same as the difference between a Fighgunner and Fortefighter.

So, yeah, change slicers and I'll be happy.

[Thanubis]

On 2007-12-04 11:16, MELGRIN wrote:
omg shut up fag. its a forum you dont have to be all serious.Can you make one ****ing post without calling someone a fag? We're not all as gay as you.

[Broodstar1337]

On 2007-12-04 11:13, Typheros wrote:

On 2007-12-04 10:20, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 10:15, panzer_unit wrote:
I'm not the one riding around in a wahmbulance all over the boards because I have to do Fortefighter damage on top of everything else for some insanely multi-purpose job.It's more a fact that Fortefighters should not be doing anywhere near as much damage as they are. They're the outliers on the bell curve of life.

http://www.layer-infinity.net/seraphzero/what/nowemo.jpg

Forces and Rangers get to stand way back and punish enemies from afar, and any GOOD Force/Ranger should not be getting hit a whole lot due to this advantage. Tradeoff for surviveability and versatility is lower DPS. Slicers are broken as hell but other than that, Sega did a great job balancing the types.

I'm sorry Fortetechers don't get 9999 HP, 999 DFP, level 40 melee PAs, level 5000000 Support, and MadoogRodWands exclusively at S5 rank. The rest of us will enjoy our balanced game, kthx.



I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you've never played Ranger or Force. Good Rangers go in to lay down traps as well as at least hit bullet-resistant enemies with Rising Strike or something. Forces gotta run in and tag enemies with debuffs or gi-spells if they even want a piece of the pie to begin with.

At least Rangers have a speed advantage as well as flinching bullets. Forces are so slow with their magic that if they played how you suggested (that would be standing in the background shooting fireballs at everything that moves), they'd get swarmed fast. Forces have to defend themselves more often than you think with considerably less fighting power than everybody else.

[CelestialBlade]

On 2007-12-04 11:21, Pillan wrote:
I agree that Fortetecher should be buffed to deal damage around the range of Wartecher and Fortegunner. I'm expecting that to be around the extent of the rod buff, which would be around the 30% element Remedy suggested (mainly due to the element nerf).

Rifles really don't need any changes. I mean, what kind of balance would it be if they could deal more damage and more SE than twin handguns, all at a further range? Damage is the only advantage twin handguns have. Fortegunner as a whole is a fine class and doesn't need a speed boost to make it more powerful.

The easiest way to fix Fortefighter is to fix the slicer art. I'd even remove slicers entirely from the class. I mean, the main thing that balanced all the power Fortefighter has is that they had no range. So don't give them any ranged options and let them be kings of close combat, as the class description implies.

On slicers, no linear penetrating art for hunters should be stronger than Barta, much less a laser. Nerf it so the first move is 130% and the second is 140% at 40 and it will be fine. And they should lower the accuracy of slicers and their PAs to be on-par with handguns. Sonic Team just doesn't quite understand that they have to hammer hunters hard for using range on a close-combat class or they'll take the option, just like any smart person would.

Wartecher is fine as it is. Whips+Resta+debuffs make it balanced with everyone else. And if that wasn't enough, they get S twin claws and knuckles too.

Fighgunner is fine. Guntecher is fine. Protranser is fine, but they did go overboard with the S weapons.

Acrofighter is okay, but I still don't see why it can use more 2 hand weapons than twin sabers, as was true in the beta. Part of the reason its stats worked so well is because they were limited to one hand weapons. Now they get the rediculous mods of twin claw and fist PAs at higher speeds than Fighgunner.

Acrotecher really doesn't need S wands, but has them anyway. It really doesn't hurt because they max at 90% of an fT's tech damage from the modifer and tech level difference in a party (that's completely ignoring the base TP difference). That's around the same as the difference between a Fighgunner and Fortefighter.

So, yeah, change slicers and I'll be happy.

Said it best, really. The game is pretty well balanced as-is.

[CelestialBlade]

On 2007-12-04 11:23, Broodstar1337 wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you've never played Ranger or Force. Good Rangers go in to lay down traps as well as at least hit bullet-resistant enemies with Rising Strike or something. Forces gotta run in and tag enemies with debuffs or gi-spells if they even want a piece of the pie to begin with.

At least Rangers have a speed advantage as well as flinching bullets. Forces are so slow with their magic that if they played how you suggested (that would be standing in the background shooting fireballs at everything that moves), they'd get swarmed fast. Forces have to defend themselves more often than you think with considerably less fighting power than everybody else.

I've been a Guntecher since January, if anything I've played melee types the least. I like to think I know what I'm talking about.

Forces don't have to use Gi-techs to tag stuff, and even so, Gi-techs and debuffs have enough range such that if you know what you're doing, you won't get hit. Or just play it safe like I do on my Force and use Ra-techs. Better than running into the middle of a pack of hungry Go Vahra.

Trap usage has gone down considerably on all Ranger types because SEs are far less useful because of our base stat buffs. Besides, as a GT, considering Crossbows are one of my main weapons, I don't have much need for traps. I spread SEs while doing good damage at the same time. On big things, a few shots with a Rifle will apply a more damaging SE than traps can anyway.

As far as Forces getting swarmed goes, that's the entire reason you were given Dam-techs and Regrant. I also utilize Rising Strike quite a bit on my Force, good for when you end up cornered. Forces have plenty of weapons to make up for the fact that they have low HP and DFP, not to mention that sick amount of EVP you get.

[Reipard]

Fortefighters, Acrofighters and Wartechers having a 'taunt' would rock the freaking house, actually. If it were implemented properly, anyway.

Wartechers should have:
Level 40 Skill
Level 30 Attack Tech
Level 20 Support Tech
Level 10 Bullets

Perfect Mirror to Guntecher http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif. Would fix ALL of WT's problems without turning it into a class that can do literally everything, which is a ridiculous concept.

Chiki needs nerfing or re-imagining. That would fix slicers.

Acrofighter and Acrotecher should have their HP, DFP and MST take a freaking hit. They don't need all that evade AND the defensive stats of mini-gods.

Fortetechers do need some kind of buff. Increase in base TP and TP% on individual techs is all that is necessary. Okay, let's buff the TP and ele% boost on Rods too.

Nuking cannot be a worthless option, especially for a class designed to nuke.

There you go. Balance!

[Kimil]

Every Topic I make becomes a huge ass, dumb debate =/

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-04 11:09, Remedy wrote:
*sniffs* Aha, I knew I smelled an embittered WoW Warrior.

And the only time you need an alternative to melee is against unreachable enemies: High-flying Zoonas and Vandas, and flying bosses (De Rol Le, Dimmagolus, and Onmagoug). That shouldn't entitle you to a vastly disproportionate RvR ratio.



Don't forget Asheron's Call or DAOC. The best it gots for warriors in the MMO's I've played was when it was so bad that you actually bust out laughing.

No you don't NEED range or SE against swarms of Vanda, Vahra, Deljabans. It's physically possible to kill that stuff just with a sword... but there's a long way between there and the point where it doesn't suck to try it, especially when you're fighting a lot of targets.

[Broodstar1337]

On 2007-12-04 11:41, Kimil wrote:
Every Topic I make becomes a huge ass, dumb debate =/



Sounds like you should stop making topics then.

I bet there were discussions like this when ST decided on how the types would be played, too.

[Chaosgyro]

Don't forget Asheron's Call or DAOC. The best it gots for warriors in the MMO's I've played was when it was so bad that you actually bust out laughing.
Until WoW implemented the +dmg mod on magic user weapons and armor a warrior could pretty much rock their faces too.

DAoC was pretty balanced actually. For PvP mages kicked ass until the two sides closed or the keep doors were breached...then they just died a lot. For PvE, the super damaging bolts couldn't even be used because they were "blocked by the warrior's body" and did 0 damage.

[Kimil]

On 2007-12-04 11:43, Broodstar1337 wrote:

On 2007-12-04 11:41, Kimil wrote:
Every Topic I make becomes a huge ass, dumb debate =/



Sounds like you should stop making topics then.

I bet there were discussions like this when ST decided on how the types would be played, too.



Lol knowing Sega, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't

[Tsundere]

On 2007-12-04 09:27, Remedy wrote:
To fix Fortecher:
-Increase the TP modifier of all spells at 31+ by about 10%
-Adjust Rods to be useful (probably a 30% TP increase and 15-20% PP increase)
-Allow spells to hit multiple hitzones of large enemies (this should apply for all classes with offensive spells, mind you)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Remedy on 2007-12-04 09:28 ]</font>


This thread was tl;dr, but I did catch this post.

How about instead of all that, they just make rods deal 25% more damage. That should make up for their slow casting speed and make them the weapon of choice for FTs.

[Kimil]

On 2007-12-04 12:03, Tsundere wrote:

...This thread was tl;dr...



lol, 4 pages is too long for you to read ? XD

[JinxoOrougeOo]

mym oppinion is that nothing in the game needs fixng thats why its in the game if u dont like what ur class is doing whatever your reasons are then switch class. Who said that classes need to be balanced fyi theyre pretty dam good right now besides the forteglitcher and btw yes the MG is back

[Kimil]

On 2007-12-04 12:06, JinxoOrougeOo wrote:
mym oppinion is that nothing in the game needs fixng thats why its in the game if u dont like what ur class is doing whatever your reasons are then switch class. Who said that classes need to be balanced fyi theyre pretty dam good right now besides the forteglitcher and btw yes the MG is back



Lol.

No Balance = lack of reason to play the classes
Lack of reason to be a different class = everyone ends up playing the same Class
boredom issues, because everyone and everything in this game that is supposed to boast [b]customization[/b, are the same.

And then Shit sucks, just like your opinion that nothing needs fixing =/. (which BTW is my opinion on your opinion)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-12-04 12:10 ]</font>

[Remedy]

On 2007-12-04 12:03, Tsundere wrote:
This thread was tl;dr, but I did catch this post.

How about instead of all that, they just make rods deal 25% more damage. That should make up for their slow casting speed and make them the weapon of choice for FTs.I wouldn't mind that. We'd still suck on bosses, but as long as the increase in damage was equal to the decrease in speed, that's a-ok in my book.

[Remedy]

On 2007-12-04 11:30, Typheros wrote:
Gi-techs and debuffs have enough range such that if you know what you're doing, you won't get hit.Except, y'know, the whole slow casting speed, split-second hit window, short range (which was nerfed, mind you), high PP cost part.

[Tsundere]

On 2007-12-04 12:05, Kimil wrote:

On 2007-12-04 12:03, Tsundere wrote:

...This thread was tl;dr...



lol, 4 pages is too long for you to read ? XD



Aparantly my post was tl;dr for you, as you could get past the first sentence.

When it comes to pointless debates like this: 4 pages is far too long, expecially when you have a limited amount of time to read both forums.

[LanVanDam13]

give fortegunner srank twin gun and mech all guns and everything will be fine and give them bow to how does GT have bow and Fortegunner dont

[Kimil]

On 2007-12-04 12:22, Tsundere wrote:

On 2007-12-04 12:05, Kimil wrote:

On 2007-12-04 12:03, Tsundere wrote:

...This thread was tl;dr...



lol, 4 pages is too long for you to read ? XD



Aparantly my post was tl;dr for you, as you could get past the first sentence.

When it comes to pointless debates like this: 4 pages is far too long, expecially when you have a limited amount of time to read both forums.



Oh, I read the rest of your post. The rest of your post just doesn't effect me since I'm a WT and can't use rods. Don't make assumptions there buddy.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimil on 2007-12-04 12:31 ]</font>

[desturel]

On 2007-12-04 12:26, LanVanDam13 wrote:
how does GT have bow and Fortegunner dont


Because the bow is a techer weapon and not a gunner weapon....

[Helly]

On 2007-12-04 09:45, amtalx wrote:
wut? I can dispose of entire mobs in a mere handful of volleys on my own. It's too fast. It's to the point where my usual running crew splits up now because groups of more than 4 are too strong.


Yeah once the new AoI stuff hit I quickly switched back to GT from WT. I almost feel bad for hunters... tagging stuff before it drops dead is really hard these days.

[Rizen]

On 2007-12-04 09:35, Remedy wrote:
Practically every other MMO with a Mage-style class (ranged magical attacks, ridiculous frailty) does vastly more damage than meleers. PSO/U is the sole exception. *shrug*

And that's about how much of an improvement Rods (other than PWand) would need to be competitive with a Wand/Madoog combo. It won't happen, though, so they'll continue to be pointless and Serdote/Sato will continue to be the best thing to use outside of a Psycho.

Just to touch on this's little comment on mages and MMOs a few pages back, you have to remember that in most MMOs, mages have to choose between whether they have to offensive magic or supportive magic. If they did have the ability to do both, one side would usually be rather weak or both were moderate. So Forces in PSO/U having the luxury of being able to do both VERY well (yes I am taking the side that fortechers are fine as is, but will welcome any changes) does call for some cost. As far as their damage, mages have always done higher quick bursts of damage than melee. If any mage did high vast amounts of damage over melee, they had either a high cost, long cast time, high threat, or some other costly penality to them. Any decent MMO with balance always made it.

But if you really want to get down to rebalancing though, its not fTs that need to be fixed, its the enemies. If it wasn't for the fact that enemies have been reduced left to right and boosting classes stats, fT would have still been doing rather larger amounts of damage than melee.

I will agree with you about the Madoog/Wand combo out shining Rods, and that is being addressed. But other than that, tell me, what are you willing to give up as a Fortetecher for that vast damage output over melee? And I'm not talking about something you call worthless (IE. Bows and Card bullets). And don't bring in any type of melee excuse.

Edit: Oh, and I did read most all the posts here, but I'veWe've all seen it before. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rizen on 2007-12-04 13:00 ]</font>

[Kimil]

On 2007-12-04 08:53, Kimil wrote:
^Title^
Disclaimer: This is my opinion fro what I've seen

Figunner, Protranser, Guntecher and finally Wartecher (with the 2 upcoming S ranks) are fine and dandy.

Everything else needs some tweeking...

How to fix Fortefighter:
-Fix the Slicer PA, 'Chikki' and then everything with this class is fine.

How to fix Fortegunner:
-Improve Rifles (maybe a firing rate increase?)

How to fix Fortetecher:
-Improve Rods ( which is actually happening )
-See Acrotecher

How to fix Acrofighter:
-Fix the Slicer PA, 'Chikki'
-Lower their stats a bit (Wartecher is supposed to be the best survivable Hunter and Acrofighter an agile hunter with heightened reflexes... so why do Acrofighters beat all classes but Fortefighter in Defence?)

How to fix Acrotecher:
-Remove S rank Wands (Why? this will fix their problems with teching damage being too high compared to FT, plus they are supposed to be using their magic beside their melee weapons ie: whips and single daggers with a Madoog. Not to mention they are supposed to to specialize in support techs... so why do they need the Wand (relatively high TP low PP). Not like ppl would miss S rank Wands... Sheldote , the A rank Wand, has kick ass TP =/

Enemies: MAKE HARDER

Then all's good in the world.



Okay, Updated

[_Vyser_]

If people controlled their slicer usage (which I'm actually kind of impressed with the groups I've been in with so far) and made monsters with at least twice the hp, I'll be happy. I just hope the new S2 missions will be hard to solo (unlike the current S missions ~_~;). I'm also in support of increased tech damage.

[Sychosis]

On 2007-12-04 12:59, Rizen wrote:

On 2007-12-04 09:35, Remedy wrote:
Practically every other MMO with a Mage-style class (ranged magical attacks, ridiculous frailty) does vastly more damage than meleers. PSO/U is the sole exception. *shrug*

And that's about how much of an improvement Rods (other than PWand) would need to be competitive with a Wand/Madoog combo. It won't happen, though, so they'll continue to be pointless and Serdote/Sato will continue to be the best thing to use outside of a Psycho.

Just to touch on this's little comment on mages and MMOs a few pages back, you have to remember that in most MMOs, mages have to choose between whether they have to offensive magic or supportive magic. If they did have the ability to do both, one side would usually be rather weak or both were moderate. So Forces in PSO/U having the luxury of being able to do both VERY well (yes I am taking the side that fortechers are fine as is, but will welcome any changes) does call for some cost. As far as their damage, mages have always done higher quick bursts of damage than melee. If any mage did high vast amounts of damage over melee, they had either a high cost, long cast time, high threat, or some other costly penality to them. Any decent MMO with balance always made it.


The problem with PSO/U is that there is not enough substance to force a choice between the two. If Fortetechers could only use "black magic" they would have 24 PAs maximum, many of which are duplicated with the only change being element. And if Acrotechers could only use support TECHNICs they would have 12 PAs maximum. Compared to 40+ melee PAs or 80+ bullets (though bullets also suffer the little variation besides element problem).

[Pillan]

They wouldn't have to make Fortetecher a pure black mage. It would be just as balanced if they lowered the support limit to 10 and increased the TP mod to 200-230%. Same 34 techs, but little to no power to the support and a lot more damage.

Also a lot of individual parts of skills are very repetative as well. I mean, look at Renkai, Dus Robado, and Gravity Dance. They're all 3 target AoE moves with about the same damage/time. They even all have the same attack pattern for the second part.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2007-12-04 09:36, Iduno wrote:

I hope not otherwise we'll be pestered for support all the time by noobs that think and techer = walking trimates and rides

techer = walking trimates and rides

You loose.

[Anduril]

Here is a way to fix everything, that I'm sure evryone would be happy about: Close the Servers and Blow up all the discs. There, problem solved....

[Jaspaller]

On 2007-12-04 13:42, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-12-04 09:36, Iduno wrote:

I hope not otherwise we'll be pestered for support all the time by noobs that think and techer = walking trimates and rides

techer = walking trimates and rides

You loose.



Very loose.

[RemiusTA]

I personally believe Acrotecher should only be limited to Support, Basic, Damu and Gi spells. Wartecher should be limited to Support, Basic, Gi and Ra.

If not that, then Fortechers either need:

a) a MUCH higher Technic % increase per spell level past 30,
b) Ra , Nosu and Damu spells to hit multiple hitboxes (Gi has way too many targets). It is retarded how huge some of the 31+ spells get only to be confined to 1 hitbox.
c) Higher TP^ DEF/HP V curve.

Fortechers need to be doing thousands and thousands of damage more than they are to be considered "the highest damage dealers". They USED to be able to do more upon single hits and were outclassed in DoT, But now they are outclassed in damage overall thanks to JA and slicers. Fortechers just need a MUCH higher Curve.


Its not only PSU, LOTS of MMO's ive played usually have magic classes gimped one way or another, but usually ALWAYS in damage. I can see why though, most of the time they are afraid the players will find some way to really, REALLY abuse the class if they were given the damage they "should" have.

I mean, at least by the time a Fortecher achieves lv31+ spells, he should be a force to be reckoned. (no pun intended) Currently we arent able to achieve lv 41+ spells, but theres absolutely NO reason a melee class should outdamage a full leveled Fortecher/Masterforce with level 41+ / 50 spells. DoT or otherwise.



But i agree, ST needs to increase the attack, power and HP of the enemies by a grand scale for the higher level players. We are starting to do more damage than the game can handle.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RemiusTA on 2007-12-04 13:53 ]</font>

[Kimil]

On 2007-12-04 13:49, Jaspaller wrote:

On 2007-12-04 13:42, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-12-04 09:36, Iduno wrote:

I hope not otherwise we'll be pestered for support all the time by noobs that think and techer = walking trimates and rides

techer = walking trimates and rides

You loose.



Very loose.



[insert a joke about Fuzzy's moma here!] http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Osnap, typo.

It happens; I can't be perfect all the time.

[Kimil]

On 2007-12-04 13:53, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Osnap, typo.

It happens; I can't be perfect all the time.



http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Pillan]

Why does every techer seem to think the classes that can heal, increase their own stats, and deal damage at long range should also deal more damage than the people who can only use close combat, making them die the fastest anyway?

I mean, seriously, what kind of balance would that be? We can all agree that Fortetecher should have some more power, but we also can all agree that Fortetecher was far too powerful earlier on in the game.

Unfortunately, Sonic Team has yet to release the black mage class you want Fortetecher to become, so hopefully Masterforce will have a PA restriction that looks something more like 1/1/50/1 and a 200% TP/MST/EVP mod with a cap at 50% in all other stats. And then everyone who wants something more polarized will have it.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-12-04 14:05 ]</font>

[Zael]

On 2007-12-04 09:33, Golto wrote:
Just wait for the master types info.


Break the game even more? yay?

[Mikura]

Sorry if this doesn't contribute to the discussion but I felt like pointing out that balancing any ORPG is nearly impossible since everyone's definition of "balanced" is different.

Having said that, I think if slicers got nerfed or better yet, eliminated from a Fortefighter's weapon selection, everything would be fine.

As for Fortetechers, I wouldn't bitch and moan yet until after the rod boost is implemented. We still aren't sure just how much of a boost it's going to be, how it's going to effect spells, and how much it may or may not help bring Fortetecher up to par.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-04 13:49, RemiusTA wrote:
Fortechers need to be doing thousands and thousands of damage more than they are to be considered "the highest damage dealers". They USED to be able to do more upon single hits and were outclassed in DoT, But now they are outclassed in damage overall thanks to JA and slicers. Fortechers just need a MUCH higher Curve.


Supposing slicers did reasonable damage for being a ranged weapon, why should fortetecher be the highest damage dealer? With all their bag of mid-range tricks, techers should be balanced against gunners for damage output.

Or maybe there should be a MASTER NUKER class with all of these proposed FT boosts, plus high HP so it's not just a walking tombstone, but make casting all of the ranged techs harder by giving them access just to Rods. Drop bullet skill levels to 10 so no cop-outs with cards or bows when the going gets tough. Drop support to 20 maybe so they've gotta waste some time healing if they don't want to spend on trimate.
That would make a tech class that's awesome at dam- techs up close and nos- at range, comparable to Fortefighter w/ slicers.

[Parn]

You know what Sonic Team needs to do? They should just give Fortetechers level 40 support techs. I'll still play Acrotecher anyways, and Fortetechers won't be able to bitch about being useless anymore. Seriously, give them level 40 support techs, it's cool. Nothing wrong with having two support classes.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Parn is a winner of threads. Also, maybe nerf the range of Slicers, and this is coming from a Slicer lover too. Well, after I get Chikki Kyoren-jin to lv 40, I'm not really gonna be using it that much anyway since either Cross Hurricane, 3rd Claw PA, Buten Shuren-zan, Spinning Strike, or the other Slicer PA (the so-called less broken one) will be taking up most of my attention.

[Carlo210]

On 2007-12-04 09:35, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 09:32, amtalx wrote:
That's WAAAAAAY too much. You're a techer not a one man army. Just because techers are physically frail doens't mean they should be able to wipe the floor with everything before it gets within 10 feet.Practically every other MMO with a Mage-style class (ranged magical attacks, ridiculous frailty) does vastly more damage than meleers. PSO/U is the sole exception. *shrug*

And that's about how much of an improvement Rods (other than PWand) would need to be competitive with a Wand/Madoog combo. It won't happen, though, so they'll continue to be pointless and Serdote/Sato will continue to be the best thing to use outside of a Psycho.


That's because black mages in other games don't double up as white mages.

Anyways, regarding someone else post, the new slicerpa is the stupidest and most boring animation for any PA I've ever seen. The two swipes are fine, but then you do an effortless hop. Eugh.

http://pusu-jam.sakura.ne.jp/m/pa/pa_ckj.wmv

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2007-12-04 15:57 ]</font>

[MELGRIN]

On 2007-12-04 13:42, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2007-12-04 09:36, Iduno wrote:

I hope not otherwise we'll be pestered for support all the time by noobs that think and techer = walking trimates and rides

techer = walking trimates and rides

You loose.


well techers are the only class's that can heal. so in essence you are a walking Trimate.

you do infact loose

[Mikura]

I do hope people keep making that "loose" typo out of sarcasm. Otherwise...

[Reipard]

You know what Sonic Team needs to do? They should just give Fortetechers level 40 support techs. I'll still play Acrotecher anyways, and Fortetechers won't be able to bitch about being useless anymore. Seriously, give them level 40 support techs, it's cool. Nothing wrong with having two support classes.

You mean four :.

[Chuck_Norris]

How to fix PSU.

-Take out every class except for Acrotecher.
-Give Acrotecher 9999 on every stat.
-Give Acrotecher S rank on every weapon.
-Make the game free, even the disc.
-Have Sega give every player 10 dollars every minute they play.

[Broodstar1337]

On 2007-12-04 19:50, Chuck_Norris wrote:
How to fix PSU.

-Take out every class except for Acrotecher.
-Give Acrotecher 9999 on every stat.
-Give Acrotecher S rank on every weapon.
-Make the game free, even the disc.
-Have Sega give every player 10 dollars every minute they play.



Sounds appropriate. Sega having to pay us money in order to play a shitty game like you're proposing.

[Pengfishh]

Techer JA -- first press, reel back, second press, release! Get the timing right, critical hit.

Why the fuck not?! Casting takes long enough anyway.

In any case, at least this game isn't WoW. What a fucking time sink that shit is, am I right?

[Tsukiri]

[quote]How to fix PSU.

-Take out every class except for Acrotecher.
-Give Acrotecher 9999 on every stat.
-Give Acrotecher S rank on every weapon.
-Make the game free, even the disc.
-Have Sega give every player 10 dollars every minute they play.

Chuck Norris once again roundhouse kicks the solution into existence http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif
Seriously though how about Techers at least get multiboxes on SOME<---keyword spells because certain spells(razonde being the most obvious I have seen so far at lv.30-40)being HUGE&as for acrotechers, they in my opinion are good as is the only prob I see is their dmg with their spells only because fortecher is getting the short end of the straw. fortetecher should get more dmg because lets face it a cut of a sword or axe while powerful does not equal otherwordly powers. they cast slow which makes up for this. fighters while fast in dmg over time they do equal or more for the fact that in psu terms weapons are imbued with magic<see elements. Then again this is without any units involved like the quick series which if included makes the longer cast time shorter & making spells too powerful which could&will result in abuse unless they made the stat reduction way higher with said units. Gunners should on some weapons be able to charge them like a cannon or nade launcher but it would cost more pp. mutiboxes for rifles only so u can pick where to hit enemies ex. hit the arms to stop their atks but low dmg, legs to stop them from moving low dmg again, head shots for most dmg, body shots for medium dmg.
Fighters on the other hand all they need is for chikki to be a little less ridiculous because shooting a multibox weapon thats ranged with just attack for guaranteed criticals&high element percents with dmg&range equal&or close/surpassing rifles&axe dmg from a little tiny weapon not even as big as some single-handed weapons with no penalty such as stun from using it or the enemies being right next to u sounds just broken. keep in mind this is after the already supposed slicer pa nerf. Im glad I didn't see it post-nerf or it would have been like this but faster. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_quickdraw.gif its more like this now. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_ak.gif

[Alisha]

the compaison of FT to things like black mages fails for several reasons.
1.the lack of spells that do nothing but inflict a status effect. ie. sleepga and poisonga.
2. in other mmo's most spells are not instant cast like they are in pso. flare takes like 10 seconds to cast in ffxi.
3. the lack of a real enmity system allowing all classes to go balls out and not need to hold back for fear of dying.

what i would do is allow spells is make it so you dont have to hit a monster of the aposite element to get the elemental bonus.

to fix rifles i would either give them a berzerk pa like the one grenades have. or give rifles an enhanced critical rate. im talking like a 50% crit rate.

[Sexy_Raine]

Nerf slicers.

give FT lv40 support, and better damagewith techs.


I hate how people say close range fighting should always outdamage ranged weapons and techs. Boma Duranga outdamages any hunter PA on most bosses, and it's a ranger attack. Killer Shot shot is ranged and can kill bots and small enemies quickly.

gives rangers a "charge" specail like PSO so they can kill hunter damage. And give them more bullet PA's.

[Alisha]

to sum up this thread.

paper: rock's fine nerf scisors(sp?)

[Mystil]

How to fix Fortefighter:
-Fix the Slicer PA, 'Chikki' and then everything with this class is fine.
==========================================

No just remove access to them.

[Jife_Jifremok]

Give FT level 40 support.

Make offense tech damage according to range. Example: gi-techs should be akin to fighter or shotgun damage due to risk factor; foi should be more akin to twin handgun damage (well maybe more than that since techs are harder to aim with).

Techx should hit multiple targets depending on tech size.

If a techer is to get a STRONG ranged tech, make it so powerful that it's VERY unsafe to use---long cast time, and if the target winds up too close to tne caster, s/he gets hurt badly along with the enemy! (maybe even hurt teammates---better know when to fight and when to run, blademasters and shotgunners!)
Make SEs worthwhile again, but DO NOT make cowardly DoTs outdamage melee/shotgun!

Nerf slicers down to rifle damage.
Rangers? Just make rifles more fun to use (maybe turn em into snipers with low fire rate or assault rifles with burst fire) and give lasers multi-hit. Oh, and take killer shot away from undeserving rifles and give it to a melee or shotgun.

[Sexy_Raine]

On 2007-12-05 00:01, Jife_Jifremok wrote:
Give FT level 40 support.

Make offense tech damage according to range. Example: gi-techs should be akin to fighter or shotgun damage due to risk factor; foi should be more akin to twin handgun damage (well maybe more than that since techs are harder to aim with).

Techx should hit multiple targets depending on tech size.

If a techer is to get a STRONG ranged tech, make it so powerful that it's VERY unsafe to use---long cast time, and if the target winds up too close to tne caster, s/he gets hurt badly along with the enemy! (maybe even hurt teammates---better know when to fight and when to run, blademasters and shotgunners!)
Make SEs worthwhile again, but DO NOT make cowardly DoTs outdamage melee/shotgun!

Nerf slicers down to rifle damage.
Rangers? Just make rifles more fun to use (maybe turn em into snipers with low fire rate or assault rifles with burst fire) and give lasers multi-hit. Oh, and take killer shot away from undeserving rifles and give it to a melee or shotgun.



Insta-kill to melee? I don't think so. Rangers should get "charge" to rival melee's JA damage, then I'll be happy.

[Jife_Jifremok]

On 2007-12-05 00:10, Sexy_Raine wrote:
Insta-kill to melee? I don't think so. Rangers should get "charge" to rival melee's JA damage, then I'll be happy.



Well, just give instakill to shotugn then. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Whoever has the stones to take on self-destructing robots up close DESERVES instakill far more than some coward that plucks away from some safe distance.

[Miyoko]

Hrm, I just thought of a neat idea...

Give every single enemy in the game a weak spot, that, when shot, guarantees a critical hit. It'd be like the rangers JA, only it'd be different, and actually give us a reason to use FPS modes against things other than bosses, and it would make single-target style guns actually worth using again :/

[Jife_Jifremok]

On 2007-12-05 00:45, Miyoko wrote:
Hrm, I just thought of a neat idea...

Give every single enemy in the game a weak spot, that, when shot, guarantees a critical hit. It'd be like the rangers JA, only it'd be different, and actually give us a reason to use FPS modes against things other than bosses, and it would make single-target style guns actually worth using again :/



Well, something like this is already implimented on bosses, but that involves different target points having different defenses (but why the fuck is onmagoug's weak point the wings when they can easily regenerate and there's no vital organs there?). It'd probably be too much effort for ST to bother with when it comes to enemies with only one target point. :/

[Shadow_Wing]

Leave KS where it is, KS is stupid situational and doesn't need changing (most useless PA outside of robots http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

[Miyoko]

Exactly. If we can have it on bosses, why not everything else? Just add another hitbox on each enemies head, that cannot be hit at the same time as their body (ie. can't double shot with a shotgun, or have a grenade hit both targets/etc). I mean, christ, if I shoot something in the head, then it SHOULD be a "critical hit" >_>

[Sexy_Raine]

On 2007-12-05 00:49, Jife_Jifremok wrote:

On 2007-12-05 00:45, Miyoko wrote:
Hrm, I just thought of a neat idea...

Give every single enemy in the game a weak spot, that, when shot, guarantees a critical hit. It'd be like the rangers JA, only it'd be different, and actually give us a reason to use FPS modes against things other than bosses, and it would make single-target style guns actually worth using again :/



Well, something like this is already implimented on bosses, but that involves different target points having different defenses (but why the fuck is onmagoug's weak point the wings when they can easily regenerate and there's no vital organs there?). It'd probably be too much effort for ST to bother with when it comes to enemies with only one target point. :/



Yes, only bosses have multi-hit resistances. This would be a bit harder to do on normal enemies, and I doubt it could ever be done properly without being sloppy.

But I will admit, ranger do need access to a 1.5x damage ability too, and should not be hunter exclusive.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2007-12-05 01:03 ]</font>

[Jife_Jifremok]

On 2007-12-05 00:51, Miyoko wrote:
Exactly. If we can have it on bosses, why not everything else? Just add another hitbox on each enemies head, that cannot be hit at the same time as their body (ie. can't double shot with a shotgun, or have a grenade hit both targets/etc). I mean, christ, if I shoot something in the head, then it SHOULD be a "critical hit" >_>



That makes too much sense, so it's not gonna be implimented. Believe me, that would be a really awesome thing to do.

Although, while we're dreaming in the fantasy zone (Get ready! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif), I would like to suggest adding hitboxes to enemies' heads and limbs and having them destructible. Imagine blowing off a vanda's arms only to have it damfoie your ass. Or taking off a vahra's head so it attacks blindly. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Miyoko]

Okay, now THAT is living a little too much in a dream world. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif I could see hit boxes for extra damage, but destructible limbs... All I see, is extra slowdown for low-end users. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Although, I will admit, if you could go Resident Evil style and shoot a charging enemy in the foot to make him fall down, that'd be pretty awesome...

4srstho, the whole point of Just Attacks was to alleviate the tedium of melee... Ranged and Tech isn't really much less tedious, so, it deserves something, too. For the sake of LOLBALANCE, as well as making the game a bit more interesting for -everyone-, instead of just hunters.

What irks me, is that there are a lot of things that could be done, but nothing IS being done :l

[Konstanse_Xx]

What I believe is that Gi-techs should be able to hit multiple hit boxes and have monsters that are walking in DURING DURATION be affected. It makes sense that if monsters can't walk into a blade smashing their face, they shouldn't be able to walk into a flaming floor. Maybe nerf the power and/or increase the speed too? I don't know, but if it's done too much then increase the speed. There has to be a real benefit for having to go into a huge mob to attack or if the swarm just immediately runs PAST the group of fFs to the fT(I've seen that happen). The fT shouldn't have to run away like crazy.

Also fix RA-techs, ffs no wonder so many people are using Gi- techs and simple techs. Increase the amount of monsters affected just a little because I love them, but it's not that useful against a 6-12 Volfu if you can only hit 3.

Off-topic but I believe Regrant is well-balanced as a destructive spell. Instant cast(I heard) and blow-back at the cost of HP and low power.

I agree with not giving fF's slicers, they have enough pwnage weapons and don't need another. AF and FI should have them though, it's not THAT bad on them with the decrease in power and increased PP cost. But jebus fFs get Twin Claws, Single Claws, Sabers, Twin Sabers, Spears, Axe, Sword all on S RANK. Take out slicers or make them not as awesome, they have enough power in just their S Rank selection. X_X

EDIT: I'ma get called something, I just now it...>_>;



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Konstanse_Xx on 2007-12-05 03:40 ]</font>

EDIT2: Since we are I think bringing other games into discussion...Why don't they make it so monster stats are proportionate to party size? I've seen it in Diablo 2...it would make it so people can not bitch about soloing easily/not being able to, but if someone joins the party, no matter if they're afk just gotta be IN the party, the monsters become stronger? It'll make things like duoing fun still with a challenge of course, but people in 6 people parties won't be complaining because of lack of exp due to everything dieing? just a thought...>_>




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Konstanse_Xx on 2007-12-05 03:50 ]</font>

[ljkkjlcm9]

rangers do not need more damage, they're already the easiest class to solo with, hands down.
any force class is intended for some form of support, it's in the job description.

The entire purpose of the melee class, is to deal damage. They should be the best at it, and that's how it is. I'm tired of this complaining. The description of the classes even says it all in it
Hunter: "A balanced type with High attack power, good for melee combat. Skilled in use of Striking weapons. A good fit for beginning players."
Ranger: "A ranged fighter that can defeat enemies and support allies from a distance. The type's High accuracy makes firearms an ideal fit. Suited for intermediate players."
Force: "A type geared toward TECHNICs use. Allows advanced players to play a variety of different roles from powerful attacks to healing and support."

Both Ranger and Force have the word support in their description, while hunters do not. Who do you think they're supporting? That's right, the hunter. Their job is to support the hunter so he can do the maximum damage. The point of the charm shotgun PA? To get the enemies focuses on the ranger, so the melee person can run in and do damage without fear. Rangers are there to inflict SE, so the melee person can do their job easier. Forces are there to buff and heal, so the melee person can do their job better. But they can dish out some damage as well. DAMAGE IS NOT THEIR MAIN PURPOSE, while it is for hunters. That's really all it boils down to.

THE JACKEL



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2007-12-05 04:59 ]</font>

[amtalx]

...good thing we are all either a Hunter/Ranger/Force. I think the advanced class descriptions are a little more accurate. If you look at those it indicates that Fortetecher's main purpose is indeed power. Acrotecher is intended for support.

[Darki]

To fix technics I agree to that multi hit boxes, because it makes useless ALL technics but basic ones (to be more precise, all but diga and foie) when used to anything that has more than 1 hit box. melee classes got their just attack, their 100% critical just counter... and techers get dambarta nerfed. -.- It would be good to make at least RA techs able to multi hits, and keep Gi for mobs... but if this continue as is going now, this only increases the difference between hunters and forces.

And talking about melee. I've played with a friend that used hikens, and is very annoying two things: it's PA HUGE damage... that is not so bad, because it only does 3 hits, I do more damage with buten :S and it's range... higher than a rifle, WTF?

All the problem we see here is that hunters get even more upgrades an improvements, and other classes get nothing. what's next? a two handed sword that uses technic instead of skills? :S


On 2007-12-04 09:01, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Where's the "give WT 30 support so it isn't useless" part
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA no. Sorry for quote something from page 1, but just saw this topic and read all posts.

Do you think WTs are useless...? well, if you ARE useless to your party being a WT, go AT and be happy. I'd like to get level 40 technics xD but the fact is that with swords, whips and level 30 technics for me WT is one of the most useful classes in game. yeah, level 30 buffs could be better, level 40 too, and level 50 much better, but that's not a WARtecher, is an ACROtecher

[Sychosis]

On 2007-12-05 01:14, Miyoko wrote:
4srstho, the whole point of Just Attacks was to alleviate the tedium of melee... Ranged and Tech isn't really much less tedious, so, it deserves something, too. For the sake of LOLBALANCE, as well as making the game a bit more interesting for -everyone-, instead of just hunters.



Yes! Someone else who understands! Playing a Gunner or Techer gets pretty dull now. I used to love having to micromanage the party as a FT. Now the AT does that and I'm left to mash X and Y. Why do ATs support then go into whip mode? Because it is loads more fun than gunning or teching. There needs to be a damage balance, yes, but there also needs to be a FUN balance!


On 2007-12-05 05:26, amtalx wrote:
...good thing we are all either a Hunter/Ranger/Force. I think the advanced class descriptions are a little more accurate. If you look at those it indicates that Fortetecher's main purpose is indeed power. Acrotecher is intended for support.



Yeah, I don't know where the jackalope has been, but I stopped playing force months ago. You can support as a force all you like, but FTs are for damage now. Hopefully Masterforce can bring both halves of teching back together again :/

[physic]

uhhh slicer doesnt havelonger range than a rifle, or a bow, just because you see an effect doesnt mean it hits anything.

You really need to stop trying to nerf FF, they have no other purpose or ability than dmg, they have crappy evasion, and the defence stat is now basically a joke.

Slicer PA isnt that hax, get over yourself. fact is FF had NO options against many mobs before, go try to melee a vanda group your gonna get hurt up. whilst techer and ranger can stand midrange and take no dmg for hours.
the slicer PA is SLOW, mobs that move will run up to you and hit you after 1 combo, it doesnt allow movement or have a fast cast like spells. the part that does the big dmg also requires you to sit and wait for 2 hits. People are mad because mobs die, well uhhh your level 110 fighting 110 mobs with 6 people, yup they die, what happened every other time you were on the same level with mobs with decent gear and 6 people, you basically terminated everything. Keep in mind not everyone plays in a 6 man party, should they basically take 1 hour to do every mission because thier playstyle is dif than you? Should it be impossible to hunt a rare unless you take 2 hours? that sounds like the world you people want to live in again, uhhh ill pass.

Recognize that overall everyones defensive potential has plummeted, without the boosts to atp and abilities there would be no balance to huge defensive nerf. This most of all effects fortefighter, who has basically no way to fight without getting hit (yes slicer gets you hit too) to balance this, they have a sizable increase in atp. deal with it. THIS ISNT FFXI melee job isnt to tank or deal wack dmg because people love magic.

really you guys want FF to suck when yall can do hundreds of things besides dmg.

Why do people think AF should be weaker than FG? i dont get it, their increased speed is at the cost of weapon selection and no form of pp reduction or regen, they have what, 3 guns? what do you expect them to do with lower atp? why should figh who has way more weapons better gun selection and improved regen have way more atp than them?

Why should WT have even more atp than a PT traps, even ex ones arent that hax, and lets face it aside from ex Fortegunner has it all, and other classes got half of em anyhow. Pt has bullets, but has the ata of a FF so they cant really hax with guns, why do you people seek to make classes useless or weak when your own classes already are powerful.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Jife Jifremok or however you spell your name, you seem to have this natural talent of winning threads. And yeah, I don't want Rangers to kill Hunter damage because as Jackel said, those who are fighting up close are SUPPOSED to do more damage than the ones who stay back in the sidelines in safety. Shotguns doing lots of damage I can accept because they're point-blanking in order to do that damage. For Slicers, I was thinking this, give it a diminishing effect with damage. The closer you are to the enemy, the more damage it does, but the further away you are, the weaker the damage is.

Some blades having insta-kill would be pretty awesome too, or at least to guns that need you to get up close. I kind of disagree with Raine about Rangers having something that will kill Hunter damage, the last thing I want is for Rangers to outdamage Hunters and make them useless.

The only ones who need the change are FTs, which is by buffing techs in some way, and maybe Chikki Kyoren-jin and nerf it because of its lots of damage at a long range thing.

[Sychosis]

Chikki has near rifle range. I know I tested it yesterday.

DFP is a joke? Then you mind giving some to my FT? I value DFP like you wouldn't believe. Then again, being one shotted does that to you.

Yeah it IS that hax. A female newman 107, AF 4 clears Sleeping Warriors faster than at 110/FT 15. I can't imagine FF 15.

No, defense nerfs hit FTs the hardest. Techs and bullets pull far more aggro than a fighter, only we don't have a nice 3k HP cushion for when that Go Vahra jumps through damdiga. And no, flinch does not put an impassable barrier between you and enemies. I know how much you fighter types like to pretend it does.

All that said, no, FF should NOT lose slicers. They have been a hunter weapon since the originals and they have as much right to them as anyone else. Just bring their damage within a reasonable level. Or remove JA from them.

[Esufer]

On 2007-12-05 07:05, Sychosis wrote:
All that said, no, FF should NOT lose slicers. They have been a hunter weapon since the originals and they have as much right to them as anyone else. Just bring their damage within a reasonable level. Or remove JA from them.


Or make their normal shots use pp.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-05 06:32, Shiroryuu wrote:
Jife Jifremok or however you spell your name, you seem to have this natural talent of winning threads. And yeah, I don't want Rangers to kill Hunter damage because as Jackel said, those who are fighting up close are SUPPOSED to do more damage than the ones who stay back in the sidelines in safety. Shotguns doing lots of damage I can accept because they're point-blanking in order to do that damage. For Slicers, I was thinking this, give it a diminishing effect with damage. The closer you are to the enemy, the more damage it does, but the further away you are, the weaker the damage is.



Very cool idea.


On 2007-12-05 06:32, physic wrote:
uhhh slicer doesnt havelonger range than a rifle, or a bow, just because you see an effect doesnt mean it hits anything.



Right on. This stemmed from an erroneous post. The range is about the same as my Laser Cannon though. I think a lot of people are underestimating how ridiculously long Rifle range is.



You really need to stop trying to nerf FF, they have no other purpose or ability than dmg, they have crappy evasion, and the defence stat is now basically a joke.


Fighters take damage in exchange for dishing it out. It's called balance. It's part of being a fighter, PSU or not.



Slicer PA isnt that hax, get over yourself. fact is FF had NO options against many mobs before, go try to melee a vanda group your gonna get hurt up. whilst techer and ranger can stand midrange and take no dmg for hours.
the slicer PA is SLOW, mobs that move will run up to you and hit you after 1 combo, it doesnt allow movement or have a fast cast like spells. the part that does the big dmg also requires you to sit and wait for 2 hits. People are mad because mobs die, well uhhh your level 110 fighting 110 mobs with 6 people, yup they die, what happened every other time you were on the same level with mobs with decent gear and 6 people, you basically terminated everything. Keep in mind not everyone plays in a 6 man party, should they basically take 1 hour to do every mission because thier playstyle is dif than you? Should it be impossible to hunt a rare unless you take 2 hours? that sounds like the world you people want to live in again, uhhh ill pass.


Rangers can stand at a distance an not take damage?!? No shit Sherlock, they are RANGERS. You lost 9 internets for that statement. Slicers flinch buddie, because lets face it, EVERYTHING flinches now. And slicers are NOT slow. Jabroga is slow. Swords are slow. Slicers are in the middle, yet do more damage than slower skills. Are you also saying that you shouldn't be playing in 6 man parties? Why do parties go up to 6 players then? If you want to run solo, play offline and strap on some NPCs. The whole point of an online feature is to play with other people, and if the game wasn't designed to handle 6 man parties we wouldn't have them. Do I want missions to take an hour? Not really, but I don't want the most difficult missions to take 12 minutes either.



Recognize that overall everyones defensive potential has plummeted, without the boosts to atp and abilities there would be no balance to huge defensive nerf. This most of all effects fortefighter, who has basically no way to fight without getting hit (yes slicer gets you hit too) to balance this, they have a sizable increase in atp. deal with it. THIS ISNT FFXI melee job isnt to tank or deal wack dmg because people love magic.


You want fighters to fight without getting hit...are you f%cking serious? 14 more internets.



really you guys want FF to suck when yall can do hundreds of things besides dmg.


Hundreds? Really? Last time it checked SE (useless because everything dies so fast) and support was less than 100.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-04 23:37, Sexy_Raine wrote:
I hate how people say close range fighting should always outdamage ranged weapons and techs. Boma Duranga outdamages any hunter PA on most bosses, and it's a ranger attack. Killer Shot shot is ranged and can kill bots and small enemies quickly.

gives rangers a "charge" specail like PSO so they can kill hunter damage. And give them more bullet PA's.


LOL yeah, except you can't use Boma Duranga for long without a team of paramedics standing by... I've got the bullet at level THREE and blew through my 2700 hitpoints in one fight against those stupid big guys in the AMF base.

Leveling up my bow last night, I went through something like 2 Trimates over the course of maybe 20 Photon Charges across various missions. Unless you're really stupid, the ability to hit from some range is such a win button that it had better be pretty goddamned slow killing through stuff to make the dangerous job of melee worthwhile at all.

I don't think Chikki needs a damage nerf (there are lots of PA's that hit that hard) ... my fix would be to add knockback on the second part so you only get one good shot on any formation of enemies before having to wait for it to re-form.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-05 07:22, panzer_unit wrote:

I don't think Chikki needs a damage nerf (there are lots of PA's that hit that hard) ... my fix would be to add knockback on the second part so you only get one good shot on any formation of enemies before having to wait for it to re-form.



What? So it still does the best ranged damage of any weapon, but now screws the entire team because it scatters enemies? NO THANKS.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Panzer's right, but as for Chikki, how about sticking to my idea? I still think that one's pretty cool.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-05 07:32, amtalx wrote:
What? So it still does the best ranged damage of any weapon, but now screws the entire team because it scatters enemies? NO THANKS.


People learn to be careful with stuff like that. It works for Jabroga, Tornado Dance, and grenades... e.g. all the other top tier distance attacks. They have knockback so you can't (usually) fire over and over for broken DPS against regular targets. Unlike the rest of those Chikki doesn't multi-hit large targets either, taking away the one place where they've got a major advantage.

EDIT: alternatively, give Chikki lv1 damage reflection? OH NOES NOW THE RANGE GUYS CANT DO ANYTHING BUT PUMP STAR ATOMIZERS SO THE FIGHTERS DONT DIE* WHILE RAPING MONSTERS.

* AND GO BACK TO TOWN AND RUIN RANK

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-05 08:17 ]</font>

[Shinou]

Any ranger type that can use crossbows...USE them they're freaking great. Yes FT's need some type of boost, but like said earlier they will be getting that Rod boost soon so lets see how that works out. But in all honesty who really cares who does the most damage....enjoy the damn game and stop worrying about being the best sheesh.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-05 08:13, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2007-12-05 07:32, amtalx wrote:
What? So it still does the best ranged damage of any weapon, but now screws the entire team because it scatters enemies? NO THANKS.


People learn to be careful with stuff like that. It works for Jabroga, Tornado Dance, and grenades... e.g. all the other top tier distance attacks. They have knockback so you can't (usually) fire over and over for broken DPS against regular targets. Unlike the rest of those Chikki doesn't multi-hit large targets either, taking away the one place where they've got a major advantage.


I think people avoid using some of those moves for different reasons. Jabroga is slow enough the mob might be behind you by the time it lands. Grenades have a limited damage area and once enemies are too close/far, you have to readjust. Tornado dance...well who knows. That move originally destroyed my already lacking faith in humanity. I guess FGs stopped using it once they realized there were far better things they could be doing. Slicers on the other hand, are super easy to use, and don't require any forethought whatsoever, like with Grenades (proper range) or Jabroga (timing). And unlike Tornado Dance, Slicers are max DPS most of the time since 80% of the missions are small and medium mobs packed so tight it looks like they came out of a box. I just feel like the same asshole thats spamming Chikki to lay waste to entire mobs is going to be the same asshole spamming Chikki and scattering everything if it got knockback. Could just be my pessimism talking though. Also, mixing a Laser Cannon with a Grenade Launcher and giving it to fighters just sounds downright wrong. Giving them a Laser Cannon was bad enough.


EDIT: alternatively, give Chikki lv1 damage reflection? OH NOES NOW THE RANGE GUYS CANT DO ANYTHING BUT PUMP STAR ATOMIZERS SO THE FIGHTERS DONT DIE* WHILE RAPING MONSTERS.

* AND GO BACK TO TOWN AND RUIN RANK


Panzer in '08.

[RadiantLegend]

The easiest way to fix this.

1) Slicer uses as much PP as using jabroni

and/or

2) Enemies with 2 MILLION HP...... ok fine 200k hp and bosses with 500k HP.
maybe that is still too much HP but you ge my point
That way a noobslicer will actually "USE" other weapons and people that solo alot will start to whine. That i can live with.

[Para]

Master classes are the most retarded thing ever for PSU and should never come to fruitrition for online play because it defeats the purpose of having Fortefighter, Fighgunner, Acrofighter, Fortegunner, guntecher, wartecher, acrotecher, Fortetecher and protranser.

Oh and GTs are fine the way they are. I also agree that I don't really find myself using damage traps anymore (burn/poison) but maybe I might use confuse, silence, shock ontop of my dark/burn xbow.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Para on 2007-12-05 09:36 ]</font>

[amtalx]

I still think the jury is out on master classes. People are assuming that they will eclipse the advanced classes. We don't know anything yet.

[Mystil]

On 2007-12-05 07:05, Sychosis wrote:
All that said, no, FF should NOT lose slicers. They have been a hunter weapon since the originals and they have as much right to them as anyone else. Just bring their damage within a reasonable level. Or remove JA from them.


Given that we have the highest ATP base mod in the game, and we're already too godly, do you realize what a beast(m or f) is capable of doing with slicers at lvl15, PA40? How the FUCK would anybody get xp? lol

Slicers need to be exclusive to AF's, or just straight up take it away from FFs. I couldn't ask for more power. I got enough. Not sure if others feel the same way. We got Jabroga, We got Majarra, we got Senshou-ga and Seiden-ga with ATP boosts. We got Anga Redda, capable of dealing 9000pts of DMG. Enough is enough.

[physic]

On 2007-12-05 10:53, Mystil wrote:

On 2007-12-05 07:05, Sychosis wrote:
All that said, no, FF should NOT lose slicers. They have been a hunter weapon since the originals and they have as much right to them as anyone else. Just bring their damage within a reasonable level. Or remove JA from them.


Given that we have the highest ATP base mod in the game, and we're already too godly, do you realize what a beast(m or f) is capable of doing with slicers at lvl15, PA40? How the FUCK would anybody get xp? lol

Slicers need to be exclusive to AF's, or just straight up take it away from FFs. I couldn't ask for more power. I got enough. Not sure if others feel the same way. We got Jabroga, We got Majarra, we got Senshou-ga and Seiden-ga with ATP boosts. We got Anga Redda, capable of dealing 9000pts of DMG. Enough is enough.






Stop looking at what your doing to what is essentially underleveled mobs, did you fight level 1 mobs at level 1? did you fight level 10 mobs at level 10? the acc nerf on slicer targets mostly FF as they are the users with a way lower base ata. The way ata works is, when you fight weak mobs you dont miss much, but when you fight mobs 10 levels above you or more, you miss a shitload. FF only has access to 9 star slicers, this means thier Acc will always be capped, but mobs will go up, take a slow skill like the slicer one, and now add missing 1/3rd your hits, you go from good dmg to below average, just like that.

FF needs slicers we dont have anything exclusive we have nothing else for mid to long range. FF GETS BEAT UP LIKE NO OTHER CLASS, at least with slicer we can hit a mob twice and run in some cases.

Before you call for a second nerf you should take a look at slicers on mobs 10-30 levels above you. You really have no idea what type evasion or attacks mobs at level 120+ will be hitting us with

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-05 12:08, physic wrote:

FF needs slicers we dont have anything exclusive we have nothing else for mid to long range. FF GETS BEAT UP LIKE NO OTHER CLASS, at least with slicer we can hit a mob twice and run in some cases.



LOL @ fF being effective at mid to long randge. fF are grunts. PART OF YOUR JOB IS TO GET HIT. fFs are melee specialists, their mid range options should be adequate at best, and long range should be minimal if at all. If you want to get all fancy and dodge/cancel attacks, change to AF or a gunner type.

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2007-12-05 05:26, amtalx wrote:
...good thing we are all either a Hunter/Ranger/Force. I think the advanced class descriptions are a little more accurate. If you look at those it indicates that Fortetecher's main purpose is indeed power. Acrotecher is intended for support.

Fortetecher is meant to be unmatched in technique power, but clearly not meant to be the most powerful class. Tell me, what can a fortefighter do besides damage? They have a pistol for ranged... they get no access to traps. Their entire class is about hitting hard.

ANYONE who thinks other classes should be able to do as much damage as a melee oriented class, is just whining to whine. You choose your classes, you know what your class does. Everyone should not be doing the same damage as the melee classes, it'd just be stupid.

To put it more simply. If I were to choose classes, and every class could hit just as strong. Say a fortetecher hit as hard as a fortefighter. Why would I play fortefighter? If I can hit just as strong as a fortetecher, and heal and cast support techs on myself, why would I play fortefighter? If I could play fortegunner and do thousands of damage with a rifle, picking off enemies so far away their own long range attacks can't hit me, why would I be fortefighter?

This is just absurd, and I don't understand why people are arguing about it. The only substantial complaint, is that the Slicer PA needs to be lowered in power a little. Everyone else complaining, is just blowing smoke.

THE JACKEL

[MSAksion]

A Team with an FF usually has... well now there should be at least 2 or 3 TECH Types in each party. Not everyone is a FIGUNNER still XD

WT is up front with the FF providing close combat healing and support slashes.
GT is right there with the team Ranger providing status fire and heals of lvl 30 can reach the front line.
AT is all over the place...
FT is there, just now we can heal if we felt like it, but also concentrate on ARTILLERY FIRE as well.

So for FFs getting beat up there are potentially 4 people who can heal if no one is a duplicate job.

Perfect team is front line FF and WT, flanking close in support FT and AT, and flanking support fG and GT.

[Sexy_Raine]

I bet you've never even played FT, please quit while your at it. Thank you.

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-05 12:28, MSAksion wrote:
A Team with an FF usually has... well now there should be at least 2 or 3 TECH Types in each party. Not everyone is a FIGUNNER still XD

WT is up front with the FF providing close combat healing and support slashes.
GT is right there with the team Ranger providing status fire and heals of lvl 30 can reach the front line.
AT is all over the place...
FT is there, just now we can heal if we felt like it, but also concentrate on ARTILLERY FIRE as well.

So for FFs getting beat up there are potentially 4 people who can heal if no one is a duplicate job.

Perfect team is front line FF and WT, flanking close in support FT and AT, and flanking support fG and GT.


Good luck finding 5 people besides yourself who know how to do their job correctly. And this is all wishful thinking for the future. Right now the best party is 4-5 FF, 1 AT, 0-1 GT/WT.

[physic]

Whats this best pt bull, your gonna tear through just about anything incredibly easy if you got 6 people of 100+ regardless of EQ and etc.
My point in saying FF takes a beating is that, they reduced how useful defence in any form is, used to be a FF with 50% armor only got real dmg from techs, that isnt the case anymore, to offset it they increased our dmg so that we didnt get beat up for 2 hours. We pay for our dmg given in dmg taken.

Some one go solo True darkness as a FF and tell me you dont get murdered, tell me half to 1/3rd your attacks dont miss, even with your buff items. Now when your talking bout an FF in a party with buffs, guess what, those buffs, and part of my dmg now belongs to the support, This is why FT isnt given the best dmg in teh game because they got heals and buffs.
jackel is very right in his statement. i disagree that slicer needs another nerf though, becuase as i said before, you really dont know how bad the acc is until you fight mobs that are higher level than you, which right now isnt in teh game,

Keep in mind the level reqs for these places are 85 at the highest, dont be surprised when a team of 6 people level 100+ can tear through a zone that is meant for people who are 55 (serpent) 75 (temple) or 85 (true darkness)

keep in mind also some people play in groups of 3-5 as well. if they balance the game only for 6 man super hax parties your gonna have FFXI all over again

[Sexy_Raine]

My FF at lv80 killed Lightning beasts S using slicers and axes by himself easily. Chikken was only like lv14. His post fails at defending this system and hunters.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2007-12-05 13:06 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

Yeah but Lightning Beasts is a pushover mission. My PT solos it with axesknuckles now that Jabroga is leveled up and handguns for terrain abuse.

Hive enemies are way harder.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-05 13:14 ]</font>

[Pillan]

I have to say that adding berzerk to the slicer skill sounds like the best way to balance it so far.

[blkbeast]

[quote]On 2007-12-04 08:53, Kimil wrote:
^Title^
Disclaimer: This is my opinion fro what I've seen

Figunner, Protranser, Guntecher and finally Wartecher (with the 2 upcoming S ranks) are fine and dandy.

Whut 2 s ranks for wartecher?

[panzer_unit]

Honestly I don't see how berzerk Chikki could possibly work. You'd have to pop 2-3 trimates to live through your own PA, and good luck if the targets are REALLY bunched up.

[Sychosis]

On 2007-12-05 10:53, Mystil wrote:

On 2007-12-05 07:05, Sychosis wrote:
All that said, no, FF should NOT lose slicers. They have been a hunter weapon since the originals and they have as much right to them as anyone else. Just bring their damage within a reasonable level. Or remove JA from them.


Given that we have the highest ATP base mod in the game, and we're already too godly, do you realize what a beast(m or f) is capable of doing with slicers at lvl15, PA40? How the FUCK would anybody get xp? lol

Slicers need to be exclusive to AF's, or just straight up take it away from FFs. I couldn't ask for more power. I got enough. Not sure if others feel the same way. We got Jabroga, We got Majarra, we got Senshou-ga and Seiden-ga with ATP boosts. We got Anga Redda, capable of dealing 9000pts of DMG. Enough is enough.



You talk as if it is impossible to nerf the PA itself. It happened once before, and clearly wasn't enough. Chikki could be balanced by drastically reducing its damage modifier, or as suggested, tacking damage reflection onto it.

Damage reflection sounds pretty good since no class that has access to slicers also has access to resta. So either they go rambo mode and blow all their mates and have to keep running out to restock, or the techer waits to dispense resta until the party has tagged things. Provided of course that FFs are not still this overpowered when we reach S2 missions :/

Either way, FFs and fighters in general should not be decimating mobs from a distance. They should have more than a handgun though for ranged damage IMO. Even FTs have bows and cards, even if they are not very effective with them.

[ThEoRy]

On 2007-12-04 09:35, Remedy wrote:

On 2007-12-04 09:32, amtalx wrote:
That's WAAAAAAY too much. You're a techer not a one man army. Just because techers are physically frail doens't mean they should be able to wipe the floor with everything before it gets within 10 feet.Practically every other MMO with a Mage-style class (ranged magical attacks, ridiculous frailty) does vastly more damage than meleers. PSO/U is the sole exception. *shrug*

And that's about how much of an improvement Rods (other than PWand) would need to be competitive with a Wand/Madoog combo. It won't happen, though, so they'll continue to be pointless and Serdote/Sato will continue to be the best thing to use outside of a Psycho.


Then go play those games Rem.
Fortetecher or PSO FOnewm/FOmar etc. has always been an advanced class. ALWAYS. It has the disadvantages you despise so much for a reason. You don't like it? Don't play it.

Otherwise you make a valid point or two and I should add that there's no reason fT shouldn't have S rank Madoogs as well.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ThEoRy on 2007-12-05 13:59 ]</font>

[Sychosis]

On 2007-12-05 13:56, panzer_unit wrote:
Honestly I don't see how berzerk Chikki could possibly work. You'd have to pop 2-3 trimates to live through your own PA, and good luck if the targets are REALLY bunched up.



All it would do is have them exercise some restraint. Both Regrant and Boma Duranga are situational PAs. Chikki would simply join them in being situational.