Fixing Chikki Kyoren-jin, Slicer PA #1

[imfanboy]

Note: this is for CONSTRUCTIVE comments on how to fix slicers as a class of weapon. I happen to like them personally. So leave your "ZOMG Anotehr compaliner" or "BAN SLICERS! KICK ALL SLICER USERS!" comments for another thread, preferably in the rants section.

So I've been using Chikki Kyoren-jin pretty exclusively for the last week, and to be blunt, it has 3 problems:

1) It hits an infinite number of enemies. I've hit entire mobs of 7+, killed the closest, then watched as more monsters spawned far away and were hit as well.

2) It does a HUGE amount of damage. In 5 seconds with a 20-30% slicer (beast female fortefighter), it deals 5-7k+ damage. The damage nerf only hit the very first part of the combo, not the far more damaging second part.

3) It has a HUGE and WIDE range. I've hit boxes and mobs that were BEYOND handgun range with the slicer. Whether it's as long as a rifle is debatable, as I can't easily swap back and forth between them while playing my FF.


Any one of these is no problem at all. Jabroga, Majarra, or Gravity Break can deal equivalent (or greater) damage. Laser Cannons have about the same range, even though it's far less width. Zonde/Barta/Megid also hit infinite enemies.

The problem is that Chikki has all three.

Oh, and it has a wider area of effect around your body. I'd say that it hits a 270 degree arc near your body; I've hit enemies with it that were clearly rear and to the left of me.

It's a sign of how strong the slicer is that the Fortefighter has become the BEST solo class, period. Dus Majarra and the Slicer is all you need for virtually any situation, with maybe a handgun for anything that can fly out of your reach - perfect to occupy that empty right hand!

There are three possible ways to fix this PA:

1) Nerf damage the damage further, this time on the SECOND combo. While this would be the easiest thing to do (Hell, I'd STILL use the Slicer even if it could only do 3-4k damage total!) I don't know that this would be the best solution.

2) Nerf the number of targets hit to bring it in comparison to other melee PAs that have limits, no matter how many are in range. You can get 8 enemies into the area that Tornado Break covers, but can only hit 4 tops. I'd say that 4 targets would be perfectly fair, if this solution were possible.

3) Give whips to fighters, and slicers to techers. Probably the most complicated solution, this would also be the most fair - techers NEED a ranged melee weapon that can hit multiple targets with a high damage %, and whips make more sense in the hands of high ATP fighters. Wartechers would have access to both, to represent the blend of fighter and techer.

Of the three, I prefer the third - while complex, it's also elegant. The only reason hunters use slicers now is because on PSO, it was oftentimes the only decent ranged weapons that HUs had access to (aside from Holy Ray for HUneys and HUmars). Nostalgia is not a reason for unbalancing a game as far as it's gone.

While it's not disastrous, the fact is that an imbalance has been created, and we should suggest ways to correct that.


And I'm not kidding when I say 'exclusively' using slicers. I've been molesting enemies across Gurhal with it, just to see how deuced effective it is, and it's TOO good. It has potential, it fills a needed gap, but it's just too much the way it is right now.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-12-10 15:04 ]</font>

[pikachief]

*goes to make a SLICER PWNAGE video*

[New_One]

I tried the slicer PA once and found its biggest weakness to be that you have to re-posistion yourself alot, which is just boring. In terms of how overpowered it is, I think a nerf in the Acc department would be justified. But besides that, I find myself out-damaging chikki-spammers with single daggers anyway.

[pikachief]

lol go and nerf your acc its fine, i'll just go switch my cast to AF and all will be good XD

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pikachief on 2007-12-10 15:07 ]</font>

[New_One]

@Pikacheif, do you still play on 360? Or are you exclusively PC?

[imfanboy]

Nerfing the Acc doesn't work - it's demonstrable that all you need is about 250-300 total to hit most enemies at least 75% of the time, and even a beast male has that much when using it at its lowest level.

Nerfing the accuracy would just increase the value of a Solid/Hit S - most beast FFs would gladly sacrifice 100 ATP if it meant hitting with the slicers for 7k+ still.

I want to FIX the problem, not just gloss it over with a pointless nerf.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-12-10 15:12 ]</font>

[KyEmo]

3) Give whips to fighters, and slicers to techers. Probably the most complicated solution, this would also be the most fair - techers NEED a ranged melee weapon that can hit multiple targets with a high damage %, and whips make more sense in the hands of high ATP fighters. Wartechers would have access to both, to represent the blend of fighter and techer.


Slicers are melee, Whips are techer. No. Idc if it will fix everything. No.

[imfanboy]

What makes whips 'techer', Kyo? They're listed as melee weapons... not in the teching weapons. They use ATP, not TP. The only reason they're 'techer' weapons right now is because techers are the only ones who can use them.

That's rather arbitrary to say, Kyo. I believe slicers would make a much better fit, especially with the ATP % mod, in the hands of an Acrotecher or Fortetecher, than whips.

[New_One]

hmmm.. I think they're overated personally, most mobs you can only get in one spot on combo before they have spread out or moved behind you. And any time you spend reposistioning yourself is lost. I'm not one of those DPS people, I just find it tedious.

[pikachief]

On 2007-12-10 15:09, New_One wrote:
@Pikacheif, do you still play on 360? Or are you exclusively PC?



i primarily play on 360 and occasionally play the JP version. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif (im only lvl 45 on JP version XD)

My main is VOLTRON at lvl 103 and then Kitty at 102 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[New_One]

Ah right cool, I was just wondering cause miraculously i've never actually ran into a cast AF before. But in your case that would probably be because your 60 levels above me, haha -_-

[KyEmo]

On 2007-12-10 15:14, imfanboy wrote:
What makes whips 'techer', Kyo? They're listed as melee weapons... not in the teching weapons. They use ATP, not TP. The only reason they're 'techer' weapons right now is because techers are the only ones who can use them.

That's rather arbitrary to say, Kyo. I believe slicers would make a much better fit, especially with the ATP % mod, in the hands of an Acrotecher or Fortetecher, than whips.



Hmm, Only techers can use them?

KyEmo btw, and don't use my name in a way thats trying to degrade me, Junior.

The raw number of hits a whip does will = the damage a slicer can do, so it's pointless.

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-10 15:03, New_One wrote:
I tried the slicer PA once and found its biggest weakness to be that you have to re-posistion yourself alot, which is just boring. In terms of how overpowered it is, I think a nerf in the Acc department would be justified. But besides that, I find myself out-damaging chikki-spammers with single daggers anyway.


You must be playing with the worst chikki-spammers ever. On 3+ single-target enemies Chikki is the best PA. Always. On 1-2 single-target enemies Chikki is one of the worst PAs. But enemies have such low HP you might not get to them before the slicer kills them anyway, so it really doesn't matter.

@Fanboy - I've hit enemies standing directly behind me. 360 degrees ftw. Getting Chikki would make AT the best class evar. It wouldn't do much for FT though with their miserable ATP.

Chikki doesn't need a nerf, enemies need more HP.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Aviendha on 2007-12-10 15:21 ]</font>

[Benegesserit]

I really like option 3. Mainly because I want a whip w/o having the ability to heal myself (in trade for more damage). I agree from the many threads regarding them that techers need a boost in the form of quality ranged multihit damage.

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-10 15:20, Benegesserit wrote:
I really like option 3. Mainly because I want a whip w/o having the ability to heal myself (in trade for more damage). I agree from the many threads regarding them that techers need a boost in the form of quality ranged multihit damage.


No, they don't. Techers are not supposed to do mad DPS and making them that way would be ridiculous. Perhaps a 10-20% boost in overall tech damage would be nice without completely upsetting the balance, but any more than that and techers are doing too much damage.

[Shiryuu]

On 2007-12-10 15:14, New_One wrote:
hmmm.. I think they're overated personally, most mobs you can only get in one spot on combo before they have spread out or moved behind you. And any time you spend reposistioning yourself is lost. I'm not one of those DPS people, I just find it tedious.


You're not supposed to use them right beside the monsters. You have to attack as they spawn. It's very rare that a go bajilla/go vahra will reach you if you attack as soon as they spawn.

[Chuck_Norris]

On 2007-12-10 15:03, New_One wrote:

Chikki doesn't need a nerf, enemies need more HP.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Aviendha on 2007-12-10 15:21 ]</font>


Agreed. Just nerfing chikki won't fix anything. People will just move back to majarra. We just need enemies to have higher stats.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chuck_Norris on 2007-12-10 15:28 ]</font>

[New_One]

On 2007-12-10 15:19, Aviendha wrote:

On 2007-12-10 15:03, New_One wrote:
I tried the slicer PA once and found its biggest weakness to be that you have to re-posistion yourself alot, which is just boring. In terms of how overpowered it is, I think a nerf in the Acc department would be justified. But besides that, I find myself out-damaging chikki-spammers with single daggers anyway.


You must be playing with the worst chikki-spammers ever. On 3+ single-target enemies Chikki is the best PA. Always. On 1-2 single-target enemies Chikki is one of the worst PAs. But enemies have such low HP you might not get to them before the slicer kills them anyway, so it really doesn't matter.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Aviendha on 2007-12-10 15:21 ]</font>


Thats quite likely, although most randoms I play in don't seem to grasp just attacking very well >_>

Probably a coincedence.

[Mayu]

Wth -_-

I can do the same damage with Majira as I can with my slicer

Do what Chuck just said

Increase mobs Health and DFP

[Syl]

On 2007-12-10 15:20, Benegesserit wrote:
I really like option 3. Mainly because I want a whip w/o having the ability to heal myself (in trade for more damage).



Have you seen the nice damage output whips can do? Now imagine the amount of complainers if fF or any other melee-focused class had it.

Not a very pretty sight >_>

[New_One]

On 2007-12-10 15:25, Shiryuu wrote:

On 2007-12-10 15:14, New_One wrote:
hmmm.. I think they're overated personally, most mobs you can only get in one spot on combo before they have spread out or moved behind you. And any time you spend reposistioning yourself is lost. I'm not one of those DPS people, I just find it tedious.


You're not supposed to use them right beside the monsters. You have to attack as they spawn. It's very rare that a go bajilla/go vahra will reach you if you attack as soon as they spawn.



Oh yeah, slow mobs are instantly doomed against slicers if their formation is left intact. I just can't stand watching someone prancing around trying to line up a shot on 2 or 3 half dead monsters after their initial shot. To me, slicers are one shot weapons used as the mobs have just spawned, in a big party scenario anyways..

[Sazan]

Several PAs need a nerf. Or they should make it more difficult to use JustAttack on PA.

[Dragwind]

Whips to fF's? No way. That would mean no reason to use any other AoE PA since whips hit so many damn times the damage that adds up in the short amount of time is astounding.

I say a damage nerf on both parts again, along with PA speed decreased as odd as that sounds.

[Miyuki-chan]

I have a reasonably (idiotic) solution!
Make all monsters 50% Slicer Resistant... and count Slicers as both ranged and melee so that
they're effected by range and melee resist as well... THAT would solve everybody's "OMGWTFNERFSLICERSNAO!" problems.

Okay, that wouldn't actually solve much and neither would giving an FF a whip which would be far worse as far as overpowered goes. Considering that my 41 Newearl AT with her 7* lightning whip does about 100-180 per hit on Vishi Grudda to at least 8-10 parts of Alterazgoug which ends up being somewhere in the range of 6400 - 14400 dmg for the entire PA with Just Attack. Now imagine just how much damage a Male Beast FF would do with that....

[Lavie]

frankly, unless Chiki gets a MAJOR power boost post 20, i think yer suffering from lvl 110 syndrome. at 76 beast acrofighter 10 chiki 17 22% ice shura-hiken, the damage doesn't even come near any of my fortefighters PAs. i'm toppin off at around 1.7k/each with JA, doing a -level appropriate- mission. and, frankly, the only monsters that my slicers are pullin their weight on, are the ones that group together. and those go down MUCH quicker with majarra or jabroga, or even the techs that surround the caster....think gi is the prefix.


lvl 110 syndrome: assuming that somethings broken, cause yer using it on something 10+ lvls lower then you, and can't figure out why the heck its pwning 'em, even though you normally fight monsters 20+ levels HIGHER then you.....

[-Aurora-]

gah...quit complaining just enjoy the game lol...

side note: mobs are too easy, increase in HP and dfp then its all gravy http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[imfanboy]

It takes me barely 2-3 seconds to position myself correctly for a slow, stable mob like Vandas, Jishigaras, or Gohmon, and against Boomas or Vahra that rush you, you don't have to reposition at all - just stand there and blast away, or bottleneck them in a narrow area by making them spawn, then running back a bit.

It all comes down to the question: How hard DO we want the game? Unless level 200 basic monsters have upwards of 50k hitpoints (possible), and our own damage stays exactly the same as it is now (unlikely), the game won't get any harder.

Besides, the answer of 'more HP' isn't sufficient in and of itself. Chikki Kyoren-jin so radically outclasses any other PA in the hands of a skilled player against small-medium spawns that there's no REASON to use Dus Robado, Tornado Break, or any of the PAs that are supposed to do that job. One might say the same thing about Dus Majarra, but they brought the other PAs up to a level that at least approaches Dus Majarra's usefulness, so you don't feel like you're gimping the team if you use them.

[New_One]

I think Hp + Dfp increases would be a good idea. It would be even better if they were incremental with how many are in the party, like meseta drops. That way solo-ers don't get screwed over.

[Lavie]

just one question imfanboy, were ya tests on monsters 20+ levels over you?

[RadiantLegend]

On 2007-12-10 15:34, Mayu wrote:
Wth -_-

I can do the same damage with Majira as I can with my slicer

Do what Chuck just said

Increase mobs Health and DFP






slicer has "mad range"

[Reipard]

Agreed. Just nerfing chikki won't fix anything. People will just move back to majarra. We just need enemies to have higher stats.

Majarra is close range, does not rape things from far away and has a target limit. Chikki is long range and rapes an infinite number of mobs a wide line from the user to an absurd range. Therein, lies the problem. Yeah 'wth i do that much damage from my majarra' indeed http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

And anyone who says 'My Chikki level 10 is balanced, honest! The PA don't need no fixin'!' needs to get it to level 11 and see why people are bitching http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

I made this suggestion in another thread, I think it's worth making again.

Turn Chikki into something of a Shotgun style PA. Limit its max range to something reasonable. It fans out instead of goes down a line. The close-range damage take the full damage of the PA, while the farther out the fan goes the worse the damage gets.

[Zorafim]

What's with all these "Increase mob HP and DEF" posts? You want the game to become even more of a grind?

The only thing that Chiki has that I don't like is the unnecessarily large amount of damage. Slicers are supposed to have high range and large targets. What it's not supposed to have is damage. There's no reason for it to be doing thousands of points of damage to one target. Nerf the atp boost down to 200% atp or so, and even the second part down to the numbers the first is doing.


Also, make slicer ranged damage, and left handed. Because I say so.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zorafim on 2007-12-10 16:27 ]</font>

[superdood22]

limiting enemies to hit just reveals how clumpy, limited, and small psu's battle system is, and seems so unrealistic.

instead all skill PA's should hit infinite amount of enemies. the enemy hit limit is just blocking so many possibilities.

however the range needs retouching and damage.

the hitting enemies from behind thing, well... my best suggestion were to give much more defined hit boxes (bubble skeletons perhaps :/), but that just wouldnt happen (its a shame that SEGA is slacking so much).

[SolomonGrundy]

People forget PSO, where a sword, a slicer, and a set of mechguns were all anyone hunters ever carried.

Slicers have one shortcoming - enemies with multiple hit areas (bosses being the best example). So there will always be a need for another weapon.

Having said that, I think the damage modifier for the PA should be reduced a good bit (total modifier 150%). by the same token, I would like to see the homing aspect of the weapon improve.

As to the people crying out for more enemy HP...pipe down. I can live without hour long missions tyvm.

[Zorafim]

On 2007-12-10 16:38, SolomonGrundy wrote:
People forget PSO, where a sword, a slicer, and a set of mechguns were all anyone hunters ever carried.



And how Raja could make your party pretty much ten levels stronger, or how useless Hugh and Kain were, or how the only way to hurt Dark Falz was using Odin's guns or offensive magic, and how Noah's wind spell did more damage than his thunder spell for less magic points...
And of course how Skies of Arcadia's magic was useless when you could use items or abilities...

Was Sega ever good at balancing? Maybe they should hire a mathematician, they're obviously terrible with numbers.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zorafim on 2007-12-10 16:55 ]</font>

[Xaeris]

To fix it, leave it as is...and attach a Reflect Damage Lv 2 effect to it.

Edit: Actually, strike that. Add a Reflect Damage effect to Just Attack (but not Counter) in general. Then there'd at least be some judgment involved in using it.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xaeris on 2007-12-10 17:29 ]</font>

[Zorafim]

Tha... That's actually a pretty good idea...

[Pillan]

There are a lot of ways to fix it:

Add the reflection effect, like Xaris suggested, nerf it to the point that the second move has the same modifier as barta (which would make it the same as a laser after just attack), just reduce it to 2 or 3 targets, like every other skill that has a 300+% modifier (besides the super-slow special cases like Jabroga), and/or further reduce the ATA mod of the skill and of slicers themselves. Just don't do what ST did the first time.

[XDeathX]

FF weapons should NOT be lacking in dmg. 150% atp modifier is not a good idea.. EVERYTHING can be put down really fast. What would be the point of using the slicer if enemies can kill you while you are using the PA. If anything should be nerfed, it should be its range, thats it.

Jabroga hits really hard.

Majara hits really hard and kills the whole mob just like the slicer.

Gravity break hits just as hard.

Why not the slicer.

Why should a PSO weapon be nerfed to the point where everyone uses the spear instead.

All that effort bringing a PSO weapon would be fopr nothing if the nerfed it.

If you nerf the slicer, the monsters are still going to die fast.

After the slicer, than its Majarra, then its Jabraga, then its gravty break, than its spinning breaks..

You people wont stop untill FFs are weak and pathetic.

FFs are supposed to be overpowered tanks on steriods. Leave thier weapons alone.

The game is easy because of enemy HP and defence, NOT the slicer. This will all be solved when S2 missions come out. Nerfing the slicer would only make it useless againts future S2 AotI missions and the user making a death wish.

S2 monsters need a boost. The weapons don't need any nerfing. Clases don't need nerfing, but FT needs a boost.

So I say, if the slicers should be nerfed, nerf their range, that is all.

A FF doing over 10K dmg is normal. Infact, in many offline RPGs one normal strike is over 1K and special is over 10K. That's how it's suppose to be.

Deal with it.

[Randomness]

On 2007-12-10 17:45, XDeathX wrote:
Infact, in many offline RPGs one normal strike is over 1K and special is over 10K. That's how it's suppose to be.


While we're on the topic, if we want to look at offline RPGs, how about the fact that in many, magic is far more potent than melee? That doesnt quite match up with PSU, so please leave offline RPGs out of it.

Furthermore, "many" could be as few as 1%, given the number of RPGs out there.

[Zorafim]

I want to go over why that post is so incorrect, but it'd be so overwhelming trying to go over so many points. So instead, I'm just going to go with, "no."

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I was thinking of giving it a diminishing effect with range, the closer you are, the more damage you do. The further away you are, the less damage it will do. Also, whips on FF = no, and the ATA nerf will probably not be much because ATA doesn't really matter for AFs who seem to be the prime target of bashing for Slicer spamming. My Male Human with SPS doesn't miss even when we got the Slicer nerf.

[Zorafim]

The diminishing effect would work if not for the fact that this is the only PA out for Slicer at the moment, not to mention the only PA available for slicer until lv50, or whenever the playerbase gets access to S missions. I really think all it needs is a major loss in ATP.

[Pillan]

On 2007-12-10 17:45, XDeathX wrote:
FF weapons should NOT be lacking in dmg. 150% atp modifier is not a good idea.. EVERYTHING can be put down really fast. What would be the point of using the slicer if enemies can kill you while you are using the PA. If anything should be nerfed, it should be its range, thats it.


That's exactly the point. Fortefighter gets high damage because they get beat up the most. If a Fortefighter wants to step back and act like a Fortegunner by using a slicer, then his damage should be reduced to that of a Fortegunner, if not less. That's also why the damage reflection would work, since the Fortefighter is still taking heavy damage for his heavy attacks.

But, yeah, I doubt PSU has the capacity to have a reduced damage at range effect, as it doesn't even have the reduced accuracy at range effect that PSO did (or at least not to a noticable extent), which is the main reason I threw that option out. If they can do either of those, I'm all for that as well.

[Stixx]

I personally don't find the damage on slicers to be detrimental to the game at all. In fact, I have alot of fun with slicers.

As for the whole nerf it/fix it, I don't think this is necessary at all. I mean, sure a slicer can hit infinite enemies for heaps of damage, but there are a few things to take into account. The PA itself requires repositioning (I've read this in this thread) and you don't really have that much freedom to turn once you're committed to the PA. Also, the PA leaves you open to enemy attacks due to it's long charge up and idle frames (also, you don't really move when doing the PA).

That being said, I'm sick of seeing all these "slicers are too overpowered!" threads. If you don't like the weapon, don't use it. If you don't like other people using it, keep it to yourself. Stop whining about not being able to hit things before some slicer-using FF kills everything. Pull out a handgun and tag 'em. Sure, you might not get 2-3 enemies in a bunch, but that's only 2-3 enemies. I mean, come on! I kill hundreds of enemies on the average night of playing.

You don't go walking around outside saying to people "hey, you're smarter than me! Please stop being so intelligent so I don't look so dumb" or "hey, you're stronger than me! Stop working out so I don't look like such a wimp!". Just deal with it. /rant

[imfanboy]

Hay Stixx, did you not READ my first post?

Obviously not.

I LIKE the slicer. It just needs some tuning, because of 3 problems:

1) It does as much damage to enemies as Majarra/Gravity Break

2) It does it to an infinite number of enemies

3) It has a wider area of effect than any other weapon in the game right now.

Fix any one of those (not all of them!) and it'd be FINE. It's just too far out of balance at the moment. When I can solo any mission in the game (not counting bosses) in under 20 minutes, then it becomes a problem of balance.

[Stixx]

Yes, I did read your post. Also, I believe I just said to suck it up and deal with it. I can solo any mission in this game faster with Majarra than I can with my Chikki.

Also, Chikki sucks on bosses and other monsters with multiple hit boxes. I believe that is the factor SEGA used to balance it to other weapons.

[jayster]

Actually machine guns are the ultimate soloing weapon. 650 a shot with argatide and solid power. And since sega is to lazy to fix the glitch. It makes for easy S2 runs. I won't lie, i'v used the glitch. But I'v recorded it and sent it in to Sega. I think a video of me soloing Dessert Goliath S2 in 12 minutes, Grove of Fanatics S2 in 8 minutes, True Darkness S2 in 5 minutes is enough to maybe get something done about it.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I agree with Pillan, Fighters do the most damage because they're up close and get beat up a lot, so Slicers taking a damage nerf might make sense.

[imfanboy]

Yeah, Jayster, but that's a glitch. *shrug* Shouldn't be possible, and I hope it gets fixed soon.

I use Majarra on the bigger enemies, to be sure; but to say "The slicer's all right because it only rips the shit out of enemy groups with more than 4-5 members!" is dishonest, and intentionally so. Majarra does NOT work as effectively as Chikki against small-medium targets, for several reasons:

1) It can only hit two targets at a time, versus an infinite number.

2) It's a melee-range weapon, so you can be interrupted much more easily when using Majarra then when standing across the room with Chikki


It does NOT take long at all to set yourself up using Chikki because medium-small enemies naturally do one of two things:

1) Rush towards you

2) stand there, or adjust themselves slightly so they can shoot at you.

If they rush at you, guess what! They clump perfectly for slicer! If they stand there, it's the work of 2-5 extra seconds to angle yourself so you can molest the entire mob.

[TheBlackDeath]

This is probably going to piss alot of people off but I have to partially agree with XDeathX. I absolutely cannot see any justification for nerfing the slicer any further than it has been. Everybody makes good points about the slicer being perhaps a little too powerful, but that doesn't mean it has to be changed so that it sucks. Techers of any kind do NOT need a slicer and although I hate to admit it fighters don't need whips. The nerf we have is good enough, it makes the slicer balanced considering the situation that most fighters are in. For anyone that thinks slicers should be nerfed to hell or taken away completely I say this: switch to Fortefighter and try running something like Demons Above S2, without using anything from AotI, not using every available healing item, no scapes whatsoever, no NPCs, and without taking an inordinate amount of time. I guarantee you won't be able to abide by these conditions. My point is that those missions that were previously impossible for Fortefighters to do are now very possible and that's a good thing because back in original PSU if a FF wanted to do one of those missions they had to have a full party or at least two techers. In the state the community is in right now that's a good thing because of the rampant greed and corruption. For these stated reasons, the slicer doesn't need it's power nerfed again or it's range nerfed at all.

[XDeathX]

On 2007-12-10 17:45, XDeathX wrote:
FF weapons should NOT be lacking in dmg. 150% atp modifier is not a good idea.. EVERYTHING can be put down really fast. What would be the point of using the slicer if enemies can kill you while you are using the PA. If anything should be nerfed, it should be its range, thats it.

Jabroga hits really hard.

Majara hits really hard and kills the whole mob just like the slicer.

Gravity break hits just as hard.

Why not the slicer.

Why should a PSO weapon be nerfed to the point where everyone uses the spear instead.

All that effort bringing a PSO weapon would be fopr nothing if the nerfed it.

If you nerf the slicer, the monsters are still going to die fast.

After the slicer, than its Majarra, then its Jabraga, then its gravty break, than its spinning breaks..

You people wont stop untill FFs are weak and pathetic.

FFs are supposed to be overpowered tanks on steriods. Leave thier weapons alone.

The game is easy because of enemy HP and defence, NOT the slicer. This will all be solved when S2 missions come out. Nerfing the slicer would only make it useless againts future S2 AotI missions and the user making a death wish.

S2 monsters need a boost. The weapons don't need any nerfing. Clases don't need nerfing, but FT needs a boost.

So I say, if the slicers should be nerfed, nerf their range, that is all.

A FF doing over 10K dmg is normal. Infact, in many offline RPGs one normal strike is over 1K and special is over 10K. That's how it's suppose to be.

Deal with it.


Also, try using the slicer on a Svaltus or any long range enemy while dodging its attacks. Not easy, eh?

Look at the downsides to the slicer, before you look at the upsides.

One hit box PAs suck at bosses. And don't mention Magas Maghanna. I'd like to see someone slicer him and dodge especially when hes on his period.

[ljkkjlcm9]

slicer should work like it did in PSO
shouldn't home on one enemy, it should bounce around them all on the regular attack
And the second part of the PA should hit equal to the first part. That's really all there is to it.

THE JACKEL

[Zorafim]

On 2007-12-10 19:11, Stixx wrote:
You don't go walking around outside saying to people "hey, you're smarter than me! Please stop being so intelligent so I don't look so dumb" or "hey, you're stronger than me! Stop working out so I don't look like such a wimp!". Just deal with it. /rant




If arguing by association, you must consider the fact that most smart/strong people earned their superiority via hard work. Those who have not are simply lucky. In order to become as good as them, you have to work hard to get to where they are. A better association would where you choose to live. For instance, you can get more money and be under better law in America than you can by staying in Mexico. Hey, guess what's happening in this case!

What you've failed to consider is that anyone can pick up a slicer and spam Chikki for almost no work, and outperform themselves if they had not. There is no added work, only a decision. In a game based around customability, this heavily decrements from the basis of the game, making it less enjoyable as a whole. You could try ignoring the slicer or slicer users, but you'd know that you'd preform much better if you had a slicer, and you'd see people you're better than outperform you. This is where the conflict lies.


Consider, and keep in mind, that slicer doesn't need to be "nerfed to hell." Rather, at the moment, it is buffed to heaven. It needs to be brought back to earth, or have everything else buffed to heaven. I find no reason for a slicer user to preform better than a dagger or sword user just because of his choice. Rather, I find that slicers should preform worse in most situations, but could be used to preform better in strategic situations. After all, it is a throwing blade, not a bazooka.


And, since Xdeath doesn't seem to know where he stands in the argument...


On 2007-12-10 20:33, XDeathX wrote:
FF weapons should NOT be lacking in dmg. 150% atp modifier is not a good idea.. EVERYTHING can be put down really fast. What would be the point of using the slicer if enemies can kill you while you are using the PA. If anything should be nerfed, it should be its range, thats it.

I can't see any logical argument or conclusion, so I'll leave it alone and say, Chikki needs to be nerfed.


Jabroga hits really hard.

Majara hits really hard and kills the whole mob just like the slicer.

Gravity break hits just as hard.

Why not the slicer.

Jabroga has a long charge up time. Using this PA in casual situations is asking for a moon atomizer. Majarra, as we have established, is also overpowered. One of the highest ATP weapons in the game has a high atp modifying PA that hits as faster, or faster, than twin daggers. Gravity Break, well, sucks.
Slicer is a long range weapon, comparable to a gunner type weapon. If you're going to compare it to anything, it should be a rifle, or a laser cannon. In both cases, the slicer's damage heavily outperforms them. If you still insist on comparing it to a melee weapon, then we'll use the PAs you've brought up.
Unlike Jabroga, Chikki has no noticeable charge up time, and any that is has is countered by its heavy range from its targets. This alone makes it unbalanced. Majarra, as we have established, is overpowered, and thus can't be compared with. Gravity Break, which I still can't see why anyone uses, is incredibly slow and only targets one or a scrunched up group. Chikki is fairly slow, but it targets a large group of enemies, in no where near the limited range that Gravity Break has.
In short, the reason Chikki shouldn't hit as hard are two words: Customability options.



Why should a PSO weapon be nerfed to the point where everyone uses the spear instead.

All that effort bringing a PSO weapon would be fopr nothing if the nerfed it.

The slicer was around since before your birth, I'm quite sure. Unless you're actually half a century old, of course. Regardless, the point for adding in a new weapon is so that people can add it into their arsenal of weapons, not replace it completely.



If you nerf the slicer, the monsters are still going to die fast.

Not nearly as fast.



After the slicer, than its Majarra, then its Jabraga, then its gravty break, than its spinning breaks..

They're taking too long as it is. Every PA should be just as useful. I've noticed that I ended up dumping a large number of PAs from my PA list simply because others were more useful. I even stopped using swords completely, after getting a Svaltus Sword. There's absolutely no reason I should do that, yet I did.



You people wont stop untill FFs are weak and pathetic.

We won't stop arguing until every class is balanced and just as useful in every situation, yet diverse enough that playing one is much different than playing another. This is what videogame creators should strive for, an absolute balance in gameplay.



FFs are supposed to be overpowered tanks on steriods. Leave thier weapons alone.

You don't have any supporting evidence to support your conclusion, which differs heavily from mine.
Fighters are supposed to be physically powerful, and useful in normal situations. It is the class to choose for rushing in to an enemy group. This doesn't mean the gun user tagging the enemies for half our damage should watch in awe, or the tech user should follow us and caress our booboos every time we get scratched.



The game is easy because of enemy HP and defence, NOT the slicer. This will all be solved when S2 missions come out. Nerfing the slicer would only make it useless againts future S2 AotI missions and the user making a death wish.

The ease of the game has nothing to do with the discussion, and it certainly will not be fixed when higher level enemies come out. Slicers will still outperform other weapons, they'll just be at the same level as the monsters now. If balanced correctly, the slicer will increase the fighter's survivability and its usefulness to the party, while keeping a similar usefulness as the axe user who pins the enemies down.



S2 monsters need a boost. The weapons don't need any nerfing. Clases don't need nerfing, but FT needs a boost.

If the monsters get a boost, the slicers will still be overpowered. If the classes are rebalanced, slicers will still be overpowered. If slicers are nerfed, they'll be on a similar use level as other weapons.



So I say, if the slicers should be nerfed, nerf their range, that is all.

This would fix things, but it would just make slicer another melee weapon. What's the point, when we have twelve others that do exactly the same thing?



A FF doing over 10K dmg is normal. Infact, in many offline RPGs one normal strike is over 1K and special is over 10K. That's how it's suppose to be.

I can name a 200 hp dragon that can maul a party with the best equipment in the game, or a party whos members do 9999 per hit in rapid succession have a difficult time on a boss. Numbers mean nothing by themselves, they need something to be compared to.



Deal with it.

I'm not quite sure what argument this is supposed to be paired with, so I'll use a counter-argument on it alone.

no u



Also, try using the slicer on a Svaltus or any long range enemy while dodging its attacks. Not easy, eh?

Look at the downsides to the slicer, before you look at the upsides.

At its weakest, it's still usable. Is that what you're saying? And, these instances are few and far between. Not to mention the twin claw user is going to be thrown around due to the AoE knockback the Svaltus has.




One hit box PAs suck at bosses. And don't mention Magas Maghanna. I'd like to see someone slicer him and dodge especially when hes on his period.

This is a point, a single offense against slicers. This doesn't mean that it's balanced, only that it's not heavily efficient in a single situation. Using this, I can say that Anga Jabroga is the best PA in the game because it can do tens of thousands of damage against bosses. This only makes it situational, though, and not overall good. The problem Chikki has, though, is that even in these poor situations it can preform well. I'd question your intelligence if you were to do it, but it can be done.


Like I said, nerf the ATP of this one PA so that its DpS is not overwhelming. A group weapon weapon shouldn't be on par with a single enemy weapon against a single weapon. The second slicer PA would be untouched, and it should be better than Chikki anyway simply because it's a fragment PA.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zorafim on 2007-12-10 21:24 ]</font>

[ketson]

hate to say it, but the other PA is just as broken, if not worse :/

[Zorafim]

Uh, wow. Remind me never to go to PSOW after reading Philosophy ever again, especially this late at night.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, either way Zorafim, you are right on a lot of stuff.

[Zorafim]

It's the philosophy talking. I swear, if it can make me type walls of text that big, I can build forts of knowledge if I study that thing an hour a day.

[Sgt_Shligger]

I'd have to agree with Fanboy's argument on ranged damage. The slicer does way to much damage for a ranged weapon. I enjoy the weapon myself but when my female newman Acrofighter, level 35, can hit a mob for 600-900 damage a hit (and that's without opposite element on enemies at or above my level) with a slicer, that's wrong. That slicer shouldn't be as effective simply because it allows you to hide in the back and SNIPE the enemies. Simple lower it's damage and be done with it. Even if it does less damage it will still have infinite targets and range on it's side.

[XDeathX]

How much damage should a lvl 110 beast FF 15 be during per hit with JA with the slicer?

Or atleast what the dmg range should be?

Oh and think about the AFighters.

[bishop472003]

where can i get majarra?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bishop472003 on 2007-12-10 22:34 ]</font>

[XDeathX]

And remember, to most people, this game is all about DPS. If the slicer is nerfed again. Many are going to stop using it. Pretty sure SEGA (who wants everyone to enjoy all the new content) enjoys people using the new weapons especially PSO weapons. I only wonder what Spreed Needle is going to be like.

Theres also a glitch with the slicer that makes one normal atk do the same dmg as one of the PA's atks.

[XDeathX]

On 2007-12-10 22:27, XDeathX wrote:
How much damage should a lvl 110 beast FF 15 be during per hit with JA with the slicer?

Or atleast what the dmg range should be?

Oh and think about the AFighters.

[Shadow_Wing]

with 31+ buffs. 3500-4000/hit

around 1500ish for the initial hits though, just attacked, varies depending on gender and ele %. Level 40 PA.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-10 22:42 ]</font>

[Stixx]

I can't wait for the GRM and Tenora slicers. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[imfanboy]

OK, let's think of it as a matter of DPS - or as damage overall out of a combo.

Assuming that my beast female FF (97/15) hits every time on a Dus Majarra combo , and I only JA the second and third parts of the combo, with an 18% Lightning Gekitsnata (just what I happen to be using) it's 900x4, 1600x4, 3100x3 - that's 19300 damage total done. It takes 4 seconds, roughly, so that's 4825 DPS.

With Chikki, I deal 1500 on the first combo, and 3100x2 on the second - that's 7700. It takes 3 seconds, so that's 2567 DPS.

In other words, on any group larger than 1 monster, I always deal more damage. In mobs of 5+, we're looking at a total of 14,000 DPS!

And Dus majarra IS the most powerful PA it could be compared to, period. This little combination doesn't count the fact that you can stand safely back from enemy attacks, nailing them as they walk towards you - oh, and Dus Majarra is easy to interrupt with melee.

You may eat quite a few Digas or Bartas while you're pelting ranged mobs with slicer bullets, but that doesn't stop the damage from going through. Whereas with Dus Majarra, the least you can lose is a second of blocking animation + startup of the PA again; the MOST you can lose is being knocked to the ground and having to stand up - that takes up almost two seconds.

As anyone with half a grain of sense could tell you, the only time this falters is against large monsters - but how many of those are there a run? On average, maybe 1/12th of the mobs you come up against in any given area have 2 hit zones, sometimes far less - and hell, some of the big monsters like Bil De Vears are SAFER to hit from a distance, and they still only have one hit zone!


C'mon. Wake up. I know the slicer is awesome, and you don't want it to change because it's the best thing since sliced bread. My point is that it's TOO awesome, and unbalancing the game.

*goes back to Awakened Serpent S runs*

Protip for Del Rol Le: When he's circling your raft, use the slicer and aim for his head - it'll hit his body for a ton of damage.

[RemiusTA]

@Fanboy - I've hit enemies standing directly behind me. 360 degrees ftw. Getting Chikki would make AT the best class evar. It wouldn't do much for FT though with their miserable ATP.

Chikki doesn't need a nerf, enemies need more HP.




We need both a Chikki nerf AND more enemy HP.


I fucking lol'ed when i found out this PA had 360 degree range. This weapon is seriously a lasercannon on critical hax

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2007-12-10 22:38, XDeathX wrote:

On 2007-12-10 22:27, XDeathX wrote:
How much damage should a lvl 110 beast FF 15 be during per hit with JA with the slicer?

Or atleast what the dmg range should be?

Oh and think about the AFighters.





Slicers are not the only thing Acrofighters use. There's also Daggers, Sabers, and Claws. Even if Slicers were nerfed, Acrofighters will still be awesome.

[Reipard]

Methinks a good balance would be scaling enemy stats (inlcuding HP) to the number of party members, honestly. PSO did that quite well.

Oh, and a Chikki nerf. Nerf that bastard.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Reipard on 2007-12-11 06:50 ]</font>

[Gen2000]

Yeah either that and/or there needs be a "Hard" version of missions made more for parties along with some type of reward that makes joining a party actually worth it.

Like pre-nerfed Desert Terror S2 or Desert Goliath S2 level missions for parties and the baby offsprings versions of today for solo'ing.

[Yusaku_Kudou]

I think it would be nice to set a party size limit without having to use NPC partner cards.

[panzer_unit]

The idea I still like best for nerfing Chikki is giving it knockback.

You get one hard PA hit and then scatter your targets... it fixes the problem of being able to spam the PA repeatedly on a group of normal-sized targets. Tornado Dance does it. Jabroga does it. Grenades do it. Only a handful of melee PA's don't scatter your targets with knockback on their final move. It has the capacity to wreck teamwork if abused, but the main point is wrecking the attack's ability to make good on its potential DPS.

[physic]

Once again your theory is totally flawed,
A beast FF is the most atp in teh game, its supposed to do dmg. B your a level 100+ FF level 15 job fighting level 110 and lower enemies, what do you think would hapen. the biggest feature of this is, you dont miss, trust me when i tell you just from playing hive, that when you try to use it on mobs 10 levels higher than you, your gonna miss your ass off, try using
Majaara isnt the best dmg PA anymore, that was before the aoi, start using robado, zubba, 2/3 of the twin claw pas, the ult single claw PA jabroga, the slicer is situational, the biggest complaint is its easy.

Ra laser at 40 is hax, the reason you dont know this is because most Ra ignored laser before aoi and leveling bullets is slow, RA grenade at 40 is hax, i wont even mention the bersek bullet.

FO Ra skills have 4 targets, and rods are getting boosted, even if this only adds 100 to their dmg, they can now do it on 4 mobs, and most the time there is only 4-5 mobs on teh screen at once, they can now do 1.5k+ on 4 mobs in the time it takes you to swing the slicer once.

slicer is fine, people are now hax.

Whips would be even worse on FF trust me, our huge base atp would basically mean we slaughter whole rooms in seconds, believe it or not, you do actually have to set up and manipulate enemies for slicer to be effective, with whip i just got to get in teh middle and terminate anything.

The perception that slicer is the greatest thing is because your fighting weak mobs, its just like beast Fortegunner seems hax when its fully leveled, but while you level it, its miss city.

edit: making a slicer pa scatter would make it useless it doesnt hit multi targets or have many hits, making it useless on large mobs, and if it scatters then its piercing is useless. look i did first part of PA, and now i cant hit anything at all, guns are 1 step so it doesnt matter if it scatters on first hit.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: physic on 2007-12-11 08:28 ]</font>

[Red_Sasori]

Honestly, I thought the slicer should have been a part of the Fortegunner arsenal as well. Considering the range and the fact that fGs have lvl 20 skills now, it would fit well with the class (need something to take up that left hand slot).

[AlphaDragoon]

All the people saying "nerfing Chikki is pointless because everyone will switch back to Majarra" needs a reality check...MAJARRA NEEDS A NERF, TOO.

So to fix the problem:

- Nerf Chikki's ATP modifier, I'm talking 150% - 175% max.
- Nerf Majarra's ATP modifier, or the number of targets it can hit/number of hits.

Gravity Break is fine because it only hits one target. Jabroga is fine because it only hits once/does knockback/has considerable lag.

[AlphaDragoon]

All the people saying "nerfing Chikki is pointless because everyone will switch back to Majarra" needs a reality check...MAJARRA NEEDS A NERF, TOO.

So to fix the problem:

- Nerf Chikki's ATP modifier, I'm talking 150% - 175% max.
- Nerf Majarra's ATP modifier, or the number of targets it can hit/number of hits.

Gravity Break is fine because it only hits one target. Jabroga is fine because it only hits once/does knockback/has considerable lag.

[physic]

man has anyone used another tech since aoi slicer jabroga and majarra arent the only pa, and arent always most dmg. majarra has the big flaw of barely stuttering anything, this means many mobs will interupt or knock you down.

try twin claw PA, many hits on two + mobs for 1.5k in teh first series, (this is all with low % weapons)
gravity break on single mobs
robado (knuckles)10 hits, 1k-2k a hit 2nd and 3rd multi target for 2k +
zubba 2.2kx4 two targets,
ult single claw:1.5k first hit 3k+ second hit (fast) 2-3 targets
assault crush
use some other pas, trust me when i tell you, majarra isnt even close to teh most hax. its just easy to level and has most of its power in the first and second part

the fact that so many other PAs are good are one of teh reasons chiki doesnt need a nerf, FF DOES DMG NOW NO MATTER WHAT THEY USE, GET USED TO IT.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-12-10 15:14, New_One wrote:
hmmm.. I think they're overated personally, most mobs you can only get in one spot on combo before they have spread out or moved behind you. And any time you spend reposistioning yourself is lost. I'm not one of those DPS people, I just find it tedious.



I totally agree here. Whenever I'm in a party, the mobs are too scattered for me to abuse them, so I personally think it's a perfectly good weapon. And if I'm 1st on the scene to a new mob spawn, perhaps then I can take them out. But NOT without sacrificing a lot of my PP doing a full combo.

I've come to the conclusion that Chikki is only over balanced when placed into the right situations (mainly solo) + equipment (high PP weapon/photon charges/etc.) + X amount of ATP is reached through class/race/level.
Kinda like achieving 0 damage to be immune to megid back in the day.

When I was a lvl 75 Male Human 15 FiG, with 12% slicers, I can only deal about 2k damage on a neutral mob. And THAT (IMO) is what sega intended with these slicers. Good damage if thrown into a small/med mob. 0's will pop up on occation cause of it's low ata. PP drains quickly if I intend on spamming it's full combo. Using JA to attempt to regain PP isn't easy since the mob's usually scattered. And you'd need to JA a LOT to hope to regain enough for Tier 2 Chikki once again. The weapon's slow, so you're a sitting duck once you're in the animation of it.
What's there to complain about?

Chikki's MAINLY overpowered cause you guys are undoubtly placing them into the hands of your maxed out lvl 110's with your skill saves, +10 grinds, and what not, right? So by then, a LOT of things could be abused, no?
Yes, chikki needs to be changed some how. But I think it's also unfair to blindly say that it's overpowered when (in most cases), it's being looked at in favorable situations.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-12-10 15:48, Lavie wrote:
frankly, unless Chiki gets a MAJOR power boost post 20, i think yer suffering from lvl 110 syndrome. at 76 beast acrofighter 10 chiki 17 22% ice shura-hiken, the damage doesn't even come near any of my fortefighters PAs. i'm toppin off at around 1.7k/each with JA, doing a -level appropriate- mission. and, frankly, the only monsters that my slicers are pullin their weight on, are the ones that group together. and those go down MUCH quicker with majarra or jabroga, or even the techs that surround the caster....think gi is the prefix.


lvl 110 syndrome: assuming that somethings broken, cause yer using it on something 10+ lvls lower then you, and can't figure out why the heck its pwning 'em, even though you normally fight monsters 20+ levels HIGHER then you.....



Thank you Lavie. I feel better knowing I'm not the only NON lvl 110 here who's barely doing 2k+ with chikki. I was start'n to feel like I was doing something wrong with Chikki while EVERYONE else is abusing theirs. 0_o

[Reipard]

Yeah either that and/or there needs be a "Hard" version of missions made more for parties along with some type of reward that makes joining a party actually worth it.

Like pre-nerfed Desert Terror S2 or Desert Goliath S2 level missions for parties and the baby offsprings versions of today for solo'ing.

I think you're on to something. Though I would rather have unique missions over dozens of clones split between 'party' and 'solo'. But we need more co-op type missions indeed.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-12-10 22:25, Sgt_Shligger wrote:
I'd have to agree with Fanboy's argument on ranged damage. The slicer does way to much damage for a ranged weapon. I enjoy the weapon myself but when my female newman Acrofighter, level 35, can hit a mob for 600-900 damage a hit (and that's without opposite element on enemies at or above my level) with a slicer, that's wrong. That slicer shouldn't be as effective simply because it allows you to hide in the back and SNIPE the enemies. Simple lower it's damage and be done with it. Even if it does less damage it will still have infinite targets and range on it's side.



Hmm...
Then the perfect solution I see here, is to DRASTICALLY reduce the damage the further distance chikki gets. Chikki DOESN'T need a range nerf since it'll just make it comprable to other close range weapons. Chikki still needs its big # (for AF sake. They NEED a good signature weapon with their lack of spear access). But to reduce chikki's damage even more, the further it stretches out (comprable to a weakened pistol perhaps), then it should be balanced, no?

[imfanboy]

I first started abusing Chikki on a level 93 character, who's using a Solid/Hit S. I switched to a Mega/Knight once the ATA got high enough (right now at level 36, it's 83% - more than enough).

Even my female cast figunner does easily 5k damage with Chikki. It's pathetically easy to JA, and missing is not a problem once you get it up to level 25+.

I have the feeling that the naysayers, the people who talk about "level 110 syndrome" don't have Chikki at a high level yet - or have never partied with more than one person using Chikki at a time.

btw, I'm using a 24% lightning slicer in these tests - good, yes, but hardly 50%. I'm also using a 18% 10* yohmei spear, since I don't have any better lightning spears. :mrgreen:

[ljkkjlcm9]

ya know, the easiest solution is just to take it off Fortefighters...

THE JACKEL

[physic]

Dont kill my options because you are suffering from mass hysteria, FF needs some different playstyle stuff, slicer provides that, and its just generally a fun weapon. is it most dps in all situations? no

Like people said you are suffering from playing with 6 level 100+ players, to be honest i can kill stuff in less than one combo with claws knuckles or sword. man on g break i often dont get to do the finishing blow, same with claws. and most my weapons are 10-30 % weapons.

4 FF with any weapon are going to mop up rooms, deal with it. stop trying to nerf my fun and my class because you play levels 10 levels lower than your base level.

lets look at claw, 20% fuka, 1.7k for 4 swings in first part of teh PA, slicer first part is 1.5
knuckles: 1.8 for first 5 hits ( this is first part of the pa)
the list goes on and on,
look at the multiplier on assault crush, forget multipliers, i can do 1.5k with daggers wo the ult skill, your lucky people are using slicers, if they were using their best stuff all teh time mobs would implode as they walk by them

[JC10001]

On 2007-12-11 11:43, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
ya know, the easiest solution is just to take it off Fortefighters...

THE JACKEL



You read my mind. I also think they should let fortegunners use slicers.

[imfanboy]

On 2007-12-11 12:26, physic wrote:
Like people said you are suffering from playing with 6 level 100+ players, to be honest i can kill stuff in less than one combo with claws knuckles or sword. man on g break i often dont get to do the finishing blow, same with claws. and most my weapons are 10-30 % weapons.


Perhaps you should have read a post of mine - ANY post?

I'm solo in any mission I play these days - and I can solo any mission, not counting a boss, in under 25 minutes. Hell, for missions that don't involve a lot of walking I can do it even faster.

I can kill an entire SPAWN in one combo - sometimes two combos - by myself. 5-6 seconds, tops. Doesn't matter how large it is, doesn't matter how it's set up originally (a teensy bit of walking lines them up just right) I can destroy it - and I don't have a single 50% slicer.

Spirits, using my 36% earth slicer and seeing the damage difference between that and my 24% lightning makes me wonder just how far this goes. I may keep synthing slicers until I get a 50% one just to see.

The only time I use Dus Majarra is against a monster with multiple hit boxes, or when there's only one monster left out of a spawn - very often, when they spawn originally in an X formation, I ignore one of them and get 4 in the hit area.


Fortefighters aren't supposed to have options, dude. They're supposed to give up options in exchange for HUGE hitting power in melee weapons. That's why they only have handguns.

This is a problem, and it's a problem that can be fixed. I realize you're on the intellectual level of holding your hands over your ears and going "Nyah nyah nyah!" but sheesh, grow up a little bit.

[imfanboy]

PS: If you think they're overrated and you've used them, you haven't learned how to use them yet. That's how I thought at first, too; I quickly learned otherwise.

[bahk]

On 2007-12-11 12:26, physic wrote:
FF needs some different playstyle stuff


Seemed to me like the whole purpose of "forte" in the names meant they were supposed to be good only in the class named after. If you need the ranged playstyle too, you should have to go to the melee/ranged hybrids.

[Sylpheed]

On 2007-12-11 14:57, imfanboy wrote:
PS: If you think they're overrated and you've used them, you haven't learned how to use them yet. That's how I thought at first, too; I quickly learned otherwise.



Ok i have to reply to you OP so i can stop you from spewing garbage straight out of your ass. Firstly stop ignoring other peoples opinions by automatically dismissing them and telling them they're wrong.

Ok, secondly this thread is made of fail. Right now my Beast is lvl 110 and Acrofighter 15. MY highest % slicer is a 42% Kubiri-hiken which otdamges any of my 30% S ranks. If i JA the second combo with buffs and a Hard Power i hit roughly 3200 damage.

Don't tell me im weak, stupid, don't know how to use the PA, im not using JA. If you want to doubt me come and see for yourself ill gladly show you. Lastly Slicers are NOT broken, please ffs people understand that these new AOtI missions are S difficulty. At lvl 110 i am anywhere from 10-20? levels higher than most mobs. So please stop spreading shit across the forums. All the game needs is stronger more intelligent monsters that aren't 10 levels lower than a maxed out player.

[Tiyr]

On 2007-12-11 15:14, Sylpheed wrote:

On 2007-12-11 14:57, imfanboy wrote:
PS: If you think they're overrated and you've used them, you haven't learned how to use them yet. That's how I thought at first, too; I quickly learned otherwise.



Ok i have to reply to you OP so i can stop you from spewing garbage straight out of your ass. Firstly stop ignoring other peoples opinions by automatically dismissing them and telling them they're wrong.

Ok, secondly this thread is made of fail. Right now my Beast is lvl 110 and Acrofighter 15. MY highest % slicer is a 42% Kubiri-hiken which otdamges any of my 30% S ranks. If i JA the second combo with buffs and a Hard Power i hit roughly 3200 damage.

Don't tell me im weak, stupid, don't know how to use the PA, im not using JA. If you want to doubt me come and see for yourself ill gladly show you. Lastly Slicers are NOT broken, please ffs people understand that these new AOtI missions are S difficulty. At lvl 110 i am anywhere from 10-20? levels higher than most mobs. So please stop spreading shit across the forums. All the game needs is stronger more intelligent monsters that aren't 10 levels lower than a maxed out player.



The problem--that you seem to be ignoring--is not that Chikki is too powerful when compared to enemies, but that it is simply so much better than every other option melees have for the same function, and to add insult to injury you can use it at extremely long range.

Let me ask you this: In what situation would you use any of the other PAs that are obviously made for tackling large numbers of small creatures? Things like Dus Robado do less damage to fewer targets AND put you in harm's way. The problem many of us have is NOT a class vs. class issue--it's the fact that I'm hamstringing myself to use anything but a slicer on crowds.

Not that anyone at ST would listen, but I'd like too see either

a) target limit (like this the least, as it removes the one really unique property of the weapon)

b) damage nerf (it's *still* insanely long rangem especially for melee classes)

c) My personal favorite--diminishing damage to each additional target it hits. IE, full damage to first target, 85% to the next, etc, etc to a certain minimum. Still wrecks whatever's closest, still hits everything, but can't wipe out an entire spawn in a combo.

[ljkkjlcm9]

here's an idea, a splash effect
As opposed to doing the same damage to all, it hits the first enemy, then does like half that to 3-4 surrounding enemies. So it only really hits one enemy, and the others have to be near that enemy to get damage

idk, seems like a good idea to me

THE JACKEL

[_K1_]

Make slicers look like giant pink hearts that shoot flowers when you fire them.

It won't fix the problem, but it will be more entertaining for the rest of the party to see some level 110 male beast named "K1LLA B3AST" using it.

[RadiantLegend]

The main problem i see with slicer is either the unlimited target or the range. ONE has to go.

Just imagine jabroga with half the time it takes to charge, it would be hax wouldn't it.

[imfanboy]

OK.

I just watched one of my friends with maxed out stuff using this. Level 110/15 Fortefighter Female Beast with a 50% dark Fuma-Hiken and Chikki 40 in White Beast S (or whatever it's called).

It was 5,000+ damage per hit of the second part of the PA.

In case you can't count, that means she was dealing 12,000+ over the entire combo to an infinite number of enemies. ONE combo was enough to wipe out entire mobs of 5+ enemies; Gohmon, froggies, Sageeta, it didn't matter. I was in awe of the speed she achieved.

She finished White Beast, start to finish, including boss, SOLO, in under twelve minutes. Most of it she spent walking.

It's sights like that which make me start to think it's not just broken, it's REALLY broken.

[XDeathX]

Give it a rest already. Phantasy Star games shall NEVER be balancede. Thats how games usually are, yet you people still play and pay for them. Theres no use in arguing. Unless your Japanese, SEGA don't care.

I say leave things a;pbe because if those future way unbalanced S Ranks units come out (ATP/ACC Unit 320ATP/240ACC), the slicer is going to be the last thing on yall minds.

Believe that.

Oh and these also a TP Unit. 600 Tech. Slicer wha?

[XDeathX]

Give it a rest already. Phantasy Star games shall NEVER be balancede. Thats how games usually are, yet you people still play and pay for them. Theres no use in arguing. Unless your Japanese, SEGA don't care.

I say leave things a;pbe because if those future way unbalanced S Ranks units come out (ATP/ACC Unit 320ATP/240ACC), the slicer is going to be the last thing on yall minds.

Believe that.

Oh and these also a TP Unit. 600 Tech. Slicer wha?

[Reipard]

All you're really proving is that it's not really worth arguing the point with people that simply refuse to see it :.

[physic]

On 2007-12-11 11:31, imfanboy wrote:
I first started abusing Chikki on a level 93 character, who's using a Solid/Hit S. I switched to a Mega/Knight once the ATA got high enough (right now at level 36, it's 83% - more than enough).

Even my female cast figunner does easily 5k damage with Chikki. It's pathetically easy to JA, and missing is not a problem once you get it up to level 25+.

I have the feeling that the naysayers, the people who talk about "level 110 syndrome" don't have Chikki at a high level yet - or have never partied with more than one person using Chikki at a time.

btw, I'm using a 24% lightning slicer in these tests - good, yes, but hardly 50%. I'm also using a 18% 10* yohmei spear, since I don't have any better lightning spears. :mrgreen:




has it ever occured to you that if you can solo a mission in 20 minutes, maybe its not the PA, just teh fact that you are OVERPOWERED,
seriously, you think a 110 lv 15 fortefighter with a a level 40 skill and 50% weapon wont do a riiculous amount of dmg? go get a a 50% 9 star weapon and any level 40 tech and see if your dmg isnt hax. when your 10 levels above your enemy.
heres what they nerfed on the slicer PA the first hit dmg, the pp cost/regen/regen from hits AND THE ACC.

GUESS WHAT, YOU LL NEVER SEE THE EFFECT OF HAVING LOW ACC WHEN YOUR FIGHTING MOBS THAT ARE MUCH WEAKER THAN YOU.
thats the way low acc works in most games and def in psu, its not low against too weak mobs, its low on exp mobs. Low acc doesnt just reduce your pa dmg by 25% IT KILLS IT WITH WHOLE ZEROES.

9 STAR IS THE MOST ACC WE CAN GET ON A SLICER EVER< EVEN WHEN MOBS ARE LEVEL 140,
fact is you havent seen how teh nerf really effects slicer use in a normal leveling situation.
fact is you give me a 50% claw/claws/knuckle/sword/axe/1 hand sword/ and i will smash slicer dmg easily.
Fact is you are playing with maxed out FF who happen to use slicer and thing they are hax, THEY ARE HAX BECAUSE THEY ARE MAXED OUT
Fact is only reason a level 110 is playing is to hunt rares or skill up, point of hunting rares is to do it fast, you want to spend 2 hours killing mobs with our current drop rates? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING

[imfanboy]

On 2007-12-11 21:24, Reipard wrote:
All you're really proving is that it's not really worth arguing the point with people that simply refuse to see it :.



No, I'm proving how childlike their arguments are. :mrgreen: Besides, it's fun!

[imfanboy]

Case in point, Reipard:


On 2007-12-11 22:26, physic wrote:
*edited out proof that he didn't read anything I wrote, even the post he quoted, or at least didn't bother to think about them*


*sigh*

*facepalm*

*after a few minutes of silence, looks back up*

Your argument is idiotic. If there's this much gap against enemies of the same level as the player (actually, HIGHER, because I'm going against level 100-110 enemies and I started out at level 93 earlier this week), the gap is only going to increase as the enemy AND player levels go up. Monster stats do NOT increase all that much.

If it were all classes that were able to solo that fast, then you might even have the fraction of a point.

If all the weapon PAs in the game, or even a significant fraction of them, dealt enough damage to let people solo like that, then you might have a fraction of a point.

But there's only one weapon PA that lets people solo like that, and only one class that really makes it abusive: Chikki Kyoren-jin, and the Fortefighter. The two of them together are way, WAY too much.


Why don't you want to see that?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-12-11 23:13 ]</font>

[imfanboy]

darnit, double post

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-12-11 23:11 ]</font>

[Stixx]

Waitasec, what's wrong with being able to solo? It takes a full party nearly the same amount of time to do a mission...so...I think the slicer is a good way to expand a player's choices on how he/she wants to play the game.

I know plenty of people who are solo only (read: don't like putting up with people) and frankly they love the slicer. It makes the game more enjoyable for them when it doesn't take as long to do missions.

It's a game, stop trying to take the fun out of it with your silly DPS stuff. Go play your game.

[Shishi-O]

On 2007-12-10 15:10, imfanboy wrote:
Nerfing the Acc doesn't work - it's demonstrable that all you need is about 250-300 total to hit most enemies at least 75% of the time, and even a beast male has that much when using it at its lowest level.

Nerfing the accuracy would just increase the value of a Solid/Hit S - most beast FFs would gladly sacrifice 100 ATP if it meant hitting with the slicers for 7k+ still.

I want to FIX the problem, not just gloss it over with a pointless nerf.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-12-10 15:12 ]</font>
it rox game not unballanced, stop complaining

[Nanosystem]

Just stay away from slicer users? I don't think anyone is forcing you to play with them. I seriously doubt We'll be getting a second nerf to the PA. I might agree fortefighter should not get to use them, but nerfing the PA will just hinder the other classes that get to use them.

[physic]

On 2007-12-11 23:05, imfanboy wrote:
Case in point, Reipard:


On 2007-12-11 22:26, physic wrote:
*edited out proof that he didn't read anything I wrote, even the post he quoted, or at least didn't bother to think about them*


*sigh*

*facepalm*

*after a few minutes of silence, looks back up*

Your argument is idiotic. If there's this much gap against enemies of the same level as the player (actually, HIGHER, because I'm going against level 100-110 enemies and I started out at level 93 earlier this week), the gap is only going to increase as the enemy AND player levels go up. Monster stats do NOT increase all that much.

If it were all classes that were able to solo that fast, then you might even have the fraction of a point.

If all the weapon PAs in the game, or even a significant fraction of them, dealt enough damage to let people solo like that, then you might have a fraction of a point.

But there's only one weapon PA that lets people solo like that, and only one class that really makes it abusive: Chikki Kyoren-jin, and the Fortefighter. The two of them together are way, WAY too much.


Why don't you want to see that?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-12-11 23:13 ]</font>


Problem is simply, your wrong. i barely use teh slicer PA and i solo most missions in 20-25 minutes for s rank hunting YES THIS IS FACT

Your wrong when speaking about the level curve because simply, after having gone and soloing true darkness which has level 115 mobs, i am often in danger of dying and it takes me a long time to clear the last room, i often miss with many PAs. I also use more than a full compliment of meds, and i actually could lose to the boss and not get s rank. this being only a 10 level difference from other levels i can do in 23 minutes. THIS IS THE TRUTH

USE ANOTHER LEVEL 40 skill WITH A 40-50% element and be shocked and amazed as mobs die faster than you can even do 1 combo.

No other class can solo that fast, id question that im pretty sure a fortegunner with high level skills can give me a run for my money but more importantly, other classes take longer, but they do it easier, forces can heal and buff and debuff, rangers can status effect, they dont get hit.
even using slicer you get hit, because it requires you to stay in one position for a long time, every moment as a FF is damage reflection

YOU ARE OVERLEVEL IF YOUR IN A 55 Req zone and your 103, you are overlevel if your in a 75 zone and your 103. you are 7 levels from cap, you are supposed to be overpowered. If you are 7 levels from cap dont expect to miss mobs.

[Nanosystem]

That is true, these are S missions, not S2s. i believe that when we finally get S2s then MAYBE we will have some sort of a "challenge". I bleive they designed these S rank missions to be better suited for lower level, which is why you can do them at 55.

[imfanboy]

Enemy HP and DFP just doesn't scale up that far.

Even if it DOES increase on a much higher scale later on, that will just make things worse. Instead of Chikki being an option if you want to clear the level fast, while using other weapons in a team means that it only takes a little longer, being a fortefighter with a slicer will be the ONLY option. Eventually, classes will consist of nothing but 3-4 fortefighters and one acrotecher to buff them and watch, yawning, as they carve their way through the level.

Can you remember how much fun it was being a fortefighter when fortegunners and figunners outclassed you completely? Or how much hate you got when you 'slowed down the run' because your class wasn't optimized?

I keep hoping that somehow, you'll stop and think for a second. It's growing less and less likely by the minute, though.

[physic]

your not paying attention, enemy dfp isnt what limits slicer use, its its effectiveness and its accuracy. you run out of pp fast, you miss, and mobs dont line up for you, also mobs have melee shields, mobs do spells and you line yourself up, that means so are they, it doesnt have any knockback and takes a long time.

Ill put it to you simple go do HIVE S2 bring whatever slicer you want, see how long it takes you, or how many meds you go through
Doing white beast with a level 110 15 job level person with light armor and 50% weapons is not a test of the game, YOU ARE OVERPOWERED. you are playing in the zone that is the most FF friendly and saying you kick ass.
PLAY HIVE. where the megids thrown in your face and mobs that actually move with some speed ruin the effectiveness of your slicer strategy, where every jusnagin and sorcerer takes half dmg from you, where dilnazen hop over you and knock you down before you even get to the 2nd part of your slicer PA where Seed Vance spits 20 fires in your face and jellens you as well as interupts you with floor tentacles. as surprisingly you miss 1/3rd of your attacks.
what different about this mission? it has an 85 req, its made for people on the higher end of the game. and there is a huge difference.

And see the truth is, yeah its harder, its more challenging, and people dont run it, even in japan, the tests show people are still running white beast and de ragan two of the easiest levels in the game. You say you want more challenge and difficulty, but thats not where people play.

Im just letting you know the truth, meet me in game, ill watch you as you go do hive you can show me how easy it is and how its always the best weapon to use, see if you can beat it in under an hour. see if you can beat it at all.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-12 01:20, physic wrote:
Ill put it to you simple go do HIVE S2 bring whatever slicer you want, see how long it takes you, or how many meds you go through
Doing white beast with a level 110 15 job level person with light armor and 50% weapons is not a test of the game, YOU ARE OVERPOWERED. you are playing in the zone that is the most FF friendly and saying you kick ass.
PLAY HIVE. where the megids thrown in your face and mobs that actually move with some speed ruin the effectiveness of your slicer strategy, where every jusnagin and sorcerer takes half dmg from you, where dilnazen hop over you and knock you down before you even get to the 2nd part of your slicer PA where Seed Vance spits 20 fires in your face and jellens you as well as interupts you with floor tentacles. as surprisingly you miss 1/3rd of your attacks.
what different about this mission? it has an 85 req, its made for people on the higher end of the game. and there is a huge difference.



That mission is hard for everyone, not matter what class. The difficulty of the mission doesn't change the fact that a single weapon does far more damage than it should. Your point fails.

[Reipard]

Your persistence in the face of such blargh is to be merited, Imfanboy ^_^.


Waitasec, what's wrong with being able to solo? It takes a full party nearly the same amount of time to do a mission...so...I think the slicer is a good way to expand a player's choices on how he/she wants to play the game.

I know plenty of people who are solo only (read: don't like putting up with people) and frankly they love the slicer. It makes the game more enjoyable for them when it doesn't take as long to do missions.

It's a game, stop trying to take the fun out of it with your silly DPS stuff. Go play your game.

Especially in the face of annoying dismissive arguments like this, as if saying 'You may go.' or 'Stop.' will bring everything to a neat and tidy close.

[Schubalts]

Uh, all of them used dismissive arguments at some point in this topic.

[Scline]

I just have a quick question, just to bust in here for a moment..

How long has it been since any of you have been level one?

[Reipard]

That doesn't make it any less annoying when you're trying to drive a point home, really.

[Masterflower]

<_< How about we leave everything alone because them having low HP helps me solo them better. Chikki you have to position yourself right to next mult enemies... even at that it goes in a straight line the PA.... simple solution... Spread out the enemies. Its not the Slicer user's fault the enemies line themselves up for a PA in their face o.o;;;

[physic]

On 2007-12-12 04:39, amtalx wrote:

That mission is hard for everyone, not matter what class. The difficulty of the mission doesn't change the fact that a single weapon does far more damage than it should. Your point fails.



i have a 46% light slicer, and fact is using my ice twin claw is more useful and more dmg except right when mobs spawn or before the run up to me.


The point is not the mission is hard, the point is too see how slicers stack up when mobs arent weak/in weak situations, you people are using slicers on mobs that dont move, prefer to bunch up, in a cramped area with a level 40 skill and a 50% weapon while your 110 and have a level 15 job, and are saying the weapon is hax. its not the weapon, its the level and the player level and EQ that is hax.
Hive is the highest req available in game now, and would you look at that, even as a level 109/15 FF i miss a whole lot with slicer, like 1/3rd the hits. Point is you people are ignoring acc and pp issues because you are in too easy zones. your ignoring that in many zones if you stand in one spot for 6 seconds trying to get the whole slicer combo your gonna get interupted or hit for huge dmg, or the enemies will move all over the place. Or the fact that there are many zones where you may have to choose your weapon based on its ACC, and PAs based on PA acc or whether the skill has knockdown or stutters mobs. Or the fact that you can do 3x teh damage with a dif weaponskill in the same time to 2 or 3 mobs. Or how long it takes while leaving you open.

and yeah hive is hard for everyone but put almost any other job in there and they wont use like 60 trimates dimates, 25 stars 6 dolls. They probably will take about the same time to beat it, or less. Im guessing fortegunner ill surpass FF based on level 20 skills and SE, giving it options for every situation, sure will be a lot easier being able to virus/burn and confuse/freeze.
people are saying the difficulty curve isnt that high as you go to more difficult missions, and thats bullshit, most of you just go to easy zones that are much lower than you and declare how its easy, dont give your analysis on how much acc matters, or how mobs have low hp, when your 35 levels over the req for a mission. Dont expect to be able to tag mobs with 6 people who are 35 levels over the req for a mission either.

[Lonzell]

Why do people keep saying, "The enemies dont line up lulz 4 da slicerz" when me and two others with slicers run up, start the combo as the enemies spawn perfectly lined up for us, watch the huge numbers fly up, and the bodies drop?

[Lonzell]

Oh ya and one more thing....

A BAY BAY!!!

[amtalx]

You act as though Slicers magically become ridiculous when you reach 110/15. Anything before that they are just...meh. And I guess because I'm 110/15 I'm cheating...

Is a Slicer useful against large mob creatures? No. Is a Slicer useful against spawns with only a few monsters? No, However, a gross majority of this game is small and medium mobs. And guess what? If you are soloing, they will ALWAYS end up in a line unless its something with awkward AI like Olgohmons. But wait...they spawn in a line. Panons? Cannon fodder. Dels? Cannon fodder.

Protip: Slicers flinch. Fire at range (which is the whole point of Slicers) and most things will be dead before they get to you.

Slicer flinch isn't as crippling as Laser Cannon flinch, but Slicers do twice the damage of my cannons (yes, they are leveled) and I have no problem wiping out most enemies before they get to me. I still can't grasp why you don't see how Slicers (Chikki more specifically) aren't balanced with the other weapons. I'm a career gunner and even I can abuse the hell out of enemies with my Sodo-Slicer in the rare event that I choose to switch classes.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-12 04:39, amtalx wrote:
That mission is hard for everyone, not matter what class. The difficulty of the mission doesn't change the fact that a single weapon does far more damage than it should. Your point fails.


His point is that a well-crafted mission actually puts slicers at a disadvantage. That level emphasizes everything a slicer is weak on with lots of fast, high-evp enemies and everything throwing freeze/death techs.

If more missions were just like the stuff in HIVE, Chikki's enormous damage advantage would still be a problem in cases where it comes up... but come up less frequently. It's an option outside of nerfing the PA itself.

[Lonzell]

... Why do they need to spawn in a line, when the slicer itself doesn't even shoot in a straight line depending on how you use it?

First shot - BAM, straight down the middle. Second shot, BAM, to the left, third shot, BAM to the right. By then, all of the mobs that have spawn are marching towards you and grouping together all the while right into the incoming fire....


Slicers aren't however useful against large mobs. Thats obvious... But any spawn of multiple single target monsters, rather it be great or few they are useful against.

[physic]

The problem is you are going to slicers looking for greatness, if you try to line up dels, sure you ll succeed, you ll also get megid to the face, if you try to line up pannons sure you ll succeed, but they will bum rush you before your PA is finished. Fact is while my 46% slicer can do 500 2k and 3kx2 on mobs, in that same time i can use knuckles to do 500 1.8kx5 2kx2 and 2.2kx4 and its only 20%. i can use majarra, or i can use twin claws to outdmg it, only if i can line up 4 or more mobs does it work. and then its only good for about 1 combo max, which doesnt kill anything in hive s2. add to the fact it misses alot, which you prolly cant relate to being a cast, but yup acc matters. I regularly miss 1/3rd with zodiaride using slicers. ACC is where the level you are makes a big difference, and missing is huge because it doesnt flinch and doesnt even register, your average dmg is way lower if you miss two hits.

Now if you got laser cannon leveled, cross element, im thinking they prolly do 1k+ a shot or more, but difference is you can move you dont have to sit around and you can fire them faster, there is no initial 500 on lasers, im not saying your gonna outdmg a FF, but you have more utility with a cannon than someone with a slicer by far.


Heres what im really telling you, the fact that you are 110 in white beast is a huge difference than if you were level 85 in hive, or 95 in hive. you are endgame and what you do seems powerful becauseyour overpowered, if i am missing 1/3 my slicer hits at 110 and 15 job, how much hits you think id have got at 95 and 10 job?
this is what i mean when i say people are overpowered judging things, when your in teh new 120 zone and your 110 then you can say how great or not great slicers are, keeping in mind teh req on that will probably be 90 or 95

[Lonzell]

Well the japanese must use the hell out of it, and lowered the power of it for a reason other than it being not overpowered.

[physic]

yeah but its already been nerfed here, im not talking about prenerf, people want an additional nerf.
And they also spend most thier time in white beast and de ragan according to the latest hotspot tracker. which are some of teh easy levels

[Sazan]

On 2007-12-11 14:17, JC10001 wrote:

You read my mind. I also think they should let fortegunners use slicers.



At the moment the most damaging attacks for a fortegunner are melee-skills. Gib Slicers for more damage!!

[physic]

slicer is a melee skill

[Tiyr]

Physic:

I can't speak for capped out, I can only speak for my AT and my FG (mid forties and 80-ish, respectively).

My problem with slicers is not that they make mobs too easy, or anything along those lines. As I said in my previous post about this, my real problem is that in many, many cases, they grossly overshadow weapons and PAs with similar function. My reason for wanting it changed is that I'd like to have variety in my gameplay without gimping myself for doing so.

Prior to AoI (I just came back after a eight-ish month hiatus) I had all my FG's PAs at 30 (missing a few of the frag ones, but all the basics save twin claws). In any non-lethal situation (Deljabans, heh) slicers outclass just about anything else that would serve a similar funtion--Renkai, Tornado Break, Dus Robado, that sort of thing. Yes, there are many PAs that put slicers to shame for single-hitbox big creatures, like Jarbas, or for mult-hitbox enemies like Komatozes, but **for their intended purpose** slicers really have no rival.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with Bel Pannons getting too close before you can maul them, but even *if* that happens, every pannon over three makes the slicer that much better than any comparable PA unless you're killing them mid-combo and able to hit more than two or three. My problem is that my seven star, 10% slicer is more usable than my 28% nine star spear, or my 22% nine star daggers, or anything else, for that purpose. I can only imagine the difference once I get a decent slicer.

I don't care if they nerf slicers or if they buff other area-effect PAs, I would simply like to be able to vary my tactics against large groups without handicapping myself to do so. One weapon / PA eclipsing everything else that (ostensibly) serves the same purpose is not a good idea.

[imfanboy]

It's almost funny, physic; a few days ago when I was hosting an elimination challenge run through the HIVE Cherry mailed me to say, "you should ban slicers." I replied with, "I hope people do use slicers. It leaves them WAY open to Megid."

But that doesn't change the fact that slicers are abusively overpowered.

What you're doing is a classic Strawman argument: setting your sight on a tiny part of my argument, knocking it down, and then claiming you've refuted my entire argument. It's one of the classic fallacies of debate, dude, and you're falling for it.

In order to win this debate, you would have to prove that Chikki Kyoren-jin does none of these:

1) Hits an infinite number of enemies

2) Does the most damage the fastest out of any PA to single-target area enemies (the vast majority of the game, in other words)

3) Is almost entirely unflinchable

4) Has the widest area of effect in the game

Any one of those is unbalanced. Put them all together and you've got something REALLY bad.

Hell, Chikki's flaws are wider than just Fortefighter: I switched to my figunner on my Awakened Serpent runs and even though I'm doing 500 less on the JA part of the combo (kinda scary; 300 ATP adds up to 500 damage difference), I'm still doing the run faster because I can handle Del Rol Le better!

[physic]

well i agree that most ae PAs arent that strong, dus robado, got a decent buff, but its slow, tornado break hits up to 4 mobs, but it isnt super dmg, renkai should still be pretty good at high levels though.
however a lot of pas hit 2 or more mobs for huge dmg compared to slicer, you can literally kill them just as fast with twin claws, twin sabers, or knuckles. even considering that you have to go and use the PA twice to get 4 mobs.

its definately true that i only use the old AE pas purpose of leveling it, they just dont compare to the other PAs in dmg 99% of the time.

[amtalx]

I guess 99% of the time means attacking single targets...

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-12-12 08:23, Lonzell wrote:
Why do people keep saying, "The enemies dont line up lulz 4 da slicerz" when me and two others with slicers run up, start the combo as the enemies spawn perfectly lined up for us, watch the huge numbers fly up, and the bodies drop?



From my experience using lvl 75 Male Human FiG 15, chikki lvl 15, neutral % element:

In parties with at least 1 non slicer user, will distract and split up the mob. Other slicer users will also split up/distract the mob if we don't kill them in 1 combo since we gotta avoid incoming fire and reposition for slicer usage.

While trying to pull off a combo, and any still remain (in White Beast), I've got someone's attention and will surely have a sleep spit ball come my way.

After 1 room of spawns, my slicer would of been completely drained of PP.

To help spread out the PP usage and achieve the huge #'s you all can achieve (except me for some crazy reason), I attempt to do 1 standard hit into JA with chikki. DURING the transition between that standard hit and chikki Tier 1, I will have gotten aggro from someone and am sitting duck to whatever may come my way. Especially if I attempt to JA to Tier 2 (where the REAL damage lies).

I wanna avoid being a sitting duck and avoid JA on Tier 1 chikki? Then I'm doing anywhere from 500-900 damage. I can't recall exactly. But it's DEFINATELY under 1k.

By the time I get the good damage of Tier 2 chikki out, half the mob sometimes has been relocated and I blantly miss. And there goes my PP.

Chikki is MAINLY overpowered if you can manage to kill a mob in 1 continuous combo with other players with similiar mob control PA. Or if you just plain solo and can manage huge # on your own. (since you've got no one else to split up the mob).

It's NOT killing a mob in one combo that gets me killed a lot if I attempt to chikki spam everything.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-12 12:07, chibiLegolas wrote:

On 2007-12-12 08:23, Lonzell wrote:
Why do people keep saying, "The enemies dont line up lulz 4 da slicerz" when me and two others with slicers run up, start the combo as the enemies spawn perfectly lined up for us, watch the huge numbers fly up, and the bodies drop?



From my experience using lvl 75 Male Human FiG 15, chikki lvl 15, neutral % element:

In parties with at least 1 non slicer user, will distract and split up the mob. Other slicer users will also split up/distract the mob if we don't kill them in 1 combo since we gotta avoid incoming fire and reposition for slicer usage.

While trying to pull off a combo, and any still remain (in White Beast), I've got someone's attention and will surely have a sleep spit ball come my way.

After 1 room of spawns, my slicer would of been completely drained of PP.

To help spread out the PP usage and achieve the huge #'s you all can achieve (except me for some crazy reason), I attempt to do 1 standard hit into JA with chikki. DURING the transition between that standard hit and chikki Tier 1, I will have gotten aggro from someone and am sitting duck to whatever may come my way. Especially if I attempt to JA to Tier 2 (where the REAL damage lies).

I wanna avoid being a sitting duck and avoid JA on Tier 1 chikki? Then I'm doing anywhere from 500-900 damage. I can't recall exactly. But it's DEFINATELY under 1k.

By the time I get the good damage of Tier 2 chikki out, half the mob sometimes has been relocated and I blantly miss. And there goes my PP.

Chikki is MAINLY overpowered if you can manage to kill a mob in 1 continuous combo with other players with similiar mob control PA. Or if you just plain solo and can manage huge # on your own. (since you've got no one else to split up the mob).

It's NOT killing a mob in one combo that gets me killed a lot if I attempt to chikki spam everything.



Think of what you can do when you are 35 levels higher and your skill is leveled. Although it's not as brutal on a FG as it is on a fF.

[imfanboy]

Heh, Legolas, figunners are the weakest slicer users - and I thought the same as you, when my Chikki Kyoren-jin was a mere level 15 too (and before I got the hang of JA'ing it!)

The problem is that it gets immensely powerful later on - right now my Chikki is at level 39. Also, the more powerful your slicer % is, the more it gets amped by Chikki; 4% worth of elemental difference is 75 more damage on average with a JA'd second part of the combo.

That adds up pretty darned fast.

EDIT: Oh, and chibi, you can aim each shot of the PA. it lets you turn while it's charging up - that lets you track fast-moving mobs. All it takes is a bit of practice.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: imfanboy on 2007-12-12 12:19 ]</font>

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-12-12 12:17, imfanboy wrote:
Heh, Legolas, figunners are the weakest slicer users - and I thought the same as you, when my Chikki Kyoren-jin was a mere level 15 too (and before I got the hang of JA'ing it!)

The problem is that it gets immensely powerful later on - right now my Chikki is at level 39. Also, the more powerful your slicer % is, the more it gets amped by Chikki; 4% worth of elemental difference is 75 more damage on average with a JA'd second part of the combo.

That adds up pretty darned fast.

EDIT: Oh, and chibi, you can aim each shot of the PA. it lets you turn while it's charging up - that lets you track fast-moving mobs. All it takes is a bit of practice.


Yea, FiG are the weakest, and I'm still trying to get the hang of using it. Hell, almost EVERYONE else says it's uber cheese. So it's obviously something I gotta get better at. (too used to seeing red cross-hairs on my GT. lol) No cross hair? Did I even hit them?! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Chikki maybe a bit more unbalanced compared to other melee PA's. And we're spouting how overpowered this is in a FF's hands with ideal equipment lvls + stage. How about placing chikki in the weakest maxed out set up? How cheesy is chikki in the hands of a female newman FiG with end game lvls? Seeing the differences here might give better insight, no?

I just have a feeling that it seems overpowered cause it's in a lvl 110's hands in a S room.

[Tiyr]

On 2007-12-12 12:29, chibiLegolas wrote:

Chikki maybe a bit more unbalanced compared to other melee PA's. And we're spouting how overpowered this is in a FF's hands with ideal equipment lvls + stage. How about placing chikki in the weakest maxed out set up? How cheesy is chikki in the hands of a female newman FiG with end game lvls? Seeing the differences here might give better insight, no?



Of course it won't be nearly as overpowered--but it'll still beat the pants off similar PAs. My FiG is a female human--I can say with a fair amount of certainty that while she doesn't wreck everything, she does a better job of it with Chikki lvl 13 than she does with Grav Dance / Tornado Break / Renkai / Dus Robado / etc at level 30 - 31.

I don't see that as acceptable, personally.

[physic]

On 2007-12-12 11:21, imfanboy wrote:
It's almost funny, physic; a few days ago when I was hosting an elimination challenge run through the HIVE Cherry mailed me to say, "you should ban slicers." I replied with, "I hope people do use slicers. It leaves them WAY open to Megid."

But that doesn't change the fact that slicers are abusively overpowered.

What you're doing is a classic Strawman argument: setting your sight on a tiny part of my argument, knocking it down, and then claiming you've refuted my entire argument. It's one of the classic fallacies of debate, dude, and you're falling for it.

In order to win this debate, you would have to prove that Chikki Kyoren-jin does none of these:

1) Hits an infinite number of enemies

2) Does the most damage the fastest out of any PA to single-target area enemies (the vast majority of the game, in other words)

3) Is almost entirely unflinchable

4) Has the widest area of effect in the game

Any one of those is unbalanced. Put them all together and you've got something REALLY bad.

Hell, Chikki's flaws are wider than just Fortefighter: I switched to my figunner on my Awakened Serpent runs and even though I'm doing 500 less on the JA part of the combo (kinda scary; 300 ATP adds up to 500 damage difference), I'm still doing the run faster because I can handle Del Rol Le better!



1) hitting infinite enmies is irrelevant, how many enmies spawn at once and their layout on spawn are based on what level your on, in many levels it is rare to see more than 5 enemies in one group of spawns. add to this you need infinite enemies to line up and you further make its use specific.
2) does most damgage to single target enemies: that is completely wrong easily and totally, i will destroy dmg of slicer with knuckles, twin claws, claws, swords, single swords, spears, twin daggers axes the list goes on. if you mean on groups of 4 mobs, maybe, but that only applies when you spawn 4 mobs who line up, and dont have some sort of attack that makes that not a disadvantage.
3 i dont understand what you mean by unflinchable, i dont consider its lack of much flinch to be a +

4 area of effect is large, if enemies are in line, but doesnt hit 360 degrees, so it depends what you want from area of effect.


Basically its not broken because there are many better options for dmg, people just dont use them, thats not the fault of the game, thats the players

fact is your generally overpowered when your fighting mobs, and slicer is a good weapon when your acc is no longer an issue due to level, and mobs attacks arent a threat to you.

[ApplePIE]

all i got to say is if its so fucken strong WHY IN THE HELL ARE YOU CRYING ABOUT IT i say use it till Sega dumbs down the attack i mean WHO THE HELL CARES its ur choice to be in the party with one of them if it pisses you off so much you dont you just solo?

[KyEmo]

You guys know slicers shoot through soft spots right?

[physic]

On 2007-12-12 12:06, amtalx wrote:
I guess 99% of the time means attacking single targets...



the idea that other pas are single target is incorect in fact there are only a few PAs that are single targets,

just to give you a quick run down

skill 1st part 2nd Part 3rd part

bogga danga 2 targets 2 targets 3 targets
bogga zubba-------------2 targets ---------------
bogga robado 1 target 2 targets 2 targets

in fact ill stop this list because 2 is generally the rule, and often 3 or more on the last part of the combo.
point is these skills do heavy dmg now and will easily double the dmg of slicer, for example, neutral weapons you ll do
slicer: 500 1.3k 2.2k 2.2k for a total of 6.1k
twin claws: 500 (1.3k)X 3 (1.1k)x2 (2.6k)x3 for a total of 13.9k
that twin claw pa is 2 targets on every part, so you can do 27.8k ever time you use the pa, to beat that with slicer you need to hit at least 5 targets, and honestly there is often not even 5 targets to hit. and twin claw has much better Pa cost, regen rate, and accuracy

twin claw is far from the only PA this strong this is neutral element. Slicer is simply not the most hax thing in the game, for a FF anyway. you are just seeing the effect of the best damage dealing class, in an incredibly overleveled instance in a perfect situation.

[Reipard]

all i got to say is if its so fucken strong WHY IN THE HELL ARE YOU CRYING ABOUT IT i say use it till Sega dumbs down the attack i mean WHO THE HELL CARES its ur choice to be in the party with one of them if it pisses you off so much you dont you just solo?

You're late. Your post was already five-six pages ago. Thanks for your input, though.

[Lonzell]

It is over powered for the majority of areas people play in, which are those easier levels you're talking about. People hardly go to those other areas to begin witih.

[physic]

people prefer playing in levels where they are overpowered, because they are easy, but then dont be surprised when its too easy.

[Lonzell]

Regardless, as much as you might hate to think this way, majority wins out. The thing that decides if a weapon is over powered isn't a weapons preformance in the enviorment thats worst for it, but its preformance in the most commonly used enviorment that the majority participates in. If everywhere else isn't even used nearly as much, then you can drop that from the equation.

[physic]

The overpowered one is the player who is 35 levels over cap, and if that player uses the best weapons for what situations hes in, it will seem over powered. the weapon is strong because a level 110/15 beast FF has 1600+ base atp, anything i use will do great dmg, and the mobs your fighting in white beast have low hp/evasion/and mobility.

Your talking about 1 or two levels and basing your analysis of how good a weapon is, its made to be good there. people play there because the level is easy. It isnt an accurate show of how useful a weapon is when the players are 35 levels over the zone. All you can say is slicers rock when your overlevel, which is probably true.

Dont think your gonna be loving the slicer when your fighting level 150 mobs and your 135 with the same 9 star slicer ata and pp.

[Lonzell]

Yea, but people don't tend to grind on maps like that.

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-12 13:18, physic wrote:

On 2007-12-12 11:21, imfanboy wrote:
It's almost funny, physic; a few days ago when I was hosting an elimination challenge run through the HIVE Cherry mailed me to say, "you should ban slicers." I replied with, "I hope people do use slicers. It leaves them WAY open to Megid."

But that doesn't change the fact that slicers are abusively overpowered.

What you're doing is a classic Strawman argument: setting your sight on a tiny part of my argument, knocking it down, and then claiming you've refuted my entire argument. It's one of the classic fallacies of debate, dude, and you're falling for it.

In order to win this debate, you would have to prove that Chikki Kyoren-jin does none of these:

1) Hits an infinite number of enemies

2) Does the most damage the fastest out of any PA to single-target area enemies (the vast majority of the game, in other words)

3) Is almost entirely unflinchable

4) Has the widest area of effect in the game

Any one of those is unbalanced. Put them all together and you've got something REALLY bad.

Hell, Chikki's flaws are wider than just Fortefighter: I switched to my figunner on my Awakened Serpent runs and even though I'm doing 500 less on the JA part of the combo (kinda scary; 300 ATP adds up to 500 damage difference), I'm still doing the run faster because I can handle Del Rol Le better!



1) hitting infinite enmies is irrelevant, how many enmies spawn at once and their layout on spawn are based on what level your on, in many levels it is rare to see more than 5 enemies in one group of spawns. add to this you need infinite enemies to line up and you further make its use specific.
2) does most damgage to single target enemies: that is completely wrong easily and totally, i will destroy dmg of slicer with knuckles, twin claws, claws, swords, single swords, spears, twin daggers axes the list goes on. if you mean on groups of 4 mobs, maybe, but that only applies when you spawn 4 mobs who line up, and dont have some sort of attack that makes that not a disadvantage.
3 i dont understand what you mean by unflinchable, i dont consider its lack of much flinch to be a +

4 area of effect is large, if enemies are in line, but doesnt hit 360 degrees, so it depends what you want from area of effect.


Basically its not broken because there are many better options for dmg, people just dont use them, thats not the fault of the game, thats the players

fact is your generally overpowered when your fighting mobs, and slicer is a good weapon when your acc is no longer an issue due to level, and mobs attacks arent a threat to you.


1)The fact that it hits infinite isn't the point. The fact that it hits the entire mob at once while Renkai is 2-3-3 Robado is 3 targets and Tornado Break is 4 is the point.
2)I think he means to groups of single-target. Although I still use it on mixed spawns to clear out the weak enemies and leave just the big ones for my other PAs.
3)He means the Chikki user doesn't get flinched by anything short of knockdown. Blocking still happens occasionally though if you're too close.
4)In case you missed my post on the first page or when it was quoted later, Chikki does hit 360 degrees around your body. The box is relatively small around your body, but its definitely there. Not really the point though since you don't need 360 when you don't have to be in the mob at all.

Oh, and you're an idiot for arguing "You're overpowered and not the slicer, level 110 and 1337 gear blah blah". Fanboy has posted Repeatedly that his is in the low-mid 90s. And to further refute your idiotic arguement, in the first week my 20% slicer was more effective with a lvl 15 PA on a level 80 Human Female AF 10 than all my 30% weapons with level 20-30 PAs.

Some other bad arguments in this thread:

Just take slicers away from FF
I'm level 95 now (Human Fem AF) and I still outdamage everyone in my party (Including all those level 110 FFs with amazing gear) not using Chikki or Machinegun glitch.

Nerf ATA on Slicer/Chikki
For those of you who don't listen to Pillan every time he says it, ATA is not important.

Nerf Slicers Please say "nerf Chikki" instead, as nerfing the weapon itself would also nerf Choutou Kantsu-jin, the 2nd PA, which does about 2/3 the damage, except you have to be on top of the targets like any other melee PA.

Give it knockback
Hunters FINALLY have an option that doesn't send shit across the room and you want to take that away? I find PAs such as Jabroga/Tornado Dance to be highly annoying in party play due to knockback, as they actually slow the party down. Plus the second part wouldn't connect.

The best solution? Enemies with more HP. If enemies didn't die so fast, Chikki wouldn't steal anyone's exp, so that would solve the problem for some of the people annoyed by this PA. And if the mob doesn't die so fast, its gets more and more spread out from various PAs tossing monsters around the room, making Chikki less and less effective over time after the initial spawn. We don't see this because the mob doesn't last too long after the initial spawn with current damage vs. monster HP.

[Pillan]

On 2007-12-12 20:28, Aviendha wrote:
Nerf ATA on Slicer/Chikki
For those of you who don't listen to Pillan every time he says it, ATA is not important.


ATA does matter if they did it right. Give the skill a static 30-40% ATA and it will be balanced. It just has to be rediculously low.

The reason ATA isn't important as a hunter is because the modifiers are so high and the weapons add so much. Lower the mod drastically and it will make a huge difference.

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-12 20:39, Pillan wrote:

On 2007-12-12 20:28, Aviendha wrote:
Nerf ATA on Slicer/Chikki
For those of you who don't listen to Pillan every time he says it, ATA is not important.


ATA does matter if they did it right. Give the skill a static 30-40% ATA and it will be balanced. It just has to be rediculously low.

The reason ATA isn't important as a hunter is because the modifiers are so high and the weapons add so much. Lower the mod drastically and it will make a huge difference.


Well, yeah, a static low mod would do the trick, I suppose. Having a weapon miss that much would be pretty irritating though.

[Jakosifer]

Really the best way to fix it (Or rather, most sensible and EASY way to fix it), is to lower the 2nd parts ATP down to 3/4's of the first parts ATP. That way the 2nd part still does more damage total, but not by the insane amount that it does now. This will easily make it so that you'd be having to spam the hell out of it to kill off one mob, and with its high PP cost most people will veer away from it quite frequently. Meaning that it will actually be what it was originally intended to be: A long range melee weapon and not a Gamebreaker.

[physic]

On 2007-12-12 21:12, Aviendha wrote:

On 2007-12-12 20:39, Pillan wrote:

On 2007-12-12 20:28, Aviendha wrote:
Nerf ATA on Slicer/Chikki
For those of you who don't listen to Pillan every time he says it, ATA is not important.


ATA does matter if they did it right. Give the skill a static 30-40% ATA and it will be balanced. It just has to be rediculously low.

The reason ATA isn't important as a hunter is because the modifiers are so high and the weapons add so much. Lower the mod drastically and it will make a huge difference.


Well, yeah, a static low mod would do the trick, I suppose. Having a weapon miss that much would be pretty irritating though.



you dont understand that ata does mattter, the reason you think it doesnt is because you play missions when you are overleveled. YOUR LEVEL AND MOB EVADE HAS A HUGE EFFECT ON HOW MUCH YOU MISS.

GO TO HIVE, SOLO, YOU WILL MISS.

and the point is, your actually overlevel for hive. just not nearly as much. also you wont be able to get anything with more ata or pp A rank is the max.

The dude also said he was 90 something and is now 100 something.
This is seriously like back when i was leveling a dif chr, and a level 70 was in crimson beast B complaining about how easy it was. YOU ARE OVERLEVEL

[amtalx]

LOL! Apparently you are the only person that runs S (exp) and S2 missions. I'm sorry, but 100+ enemies still aren't challenging and ATA remains pointless. ATA is a diminishing return stat, so you need more an more of it to get the same effect. In turn, that means it needs to be very low to actually have a noticeable decline. Fighters do just fine with the 300/400-some ATA they have (yes, on S/S2), and don't seem to miss dramatically more than I do with my 900-some.

All that said, the mod is the most important. If Chikki were crippled with a really low mod like 30-40%, I would find it hilarious, but effective. I think a better alternative is to make the ATP mod more reasonable. I would rather make contact than throw 0s all the time. At least you get that little bit of flinch when you make contact.

[physic]

amtalx, you dont understand this, we are all overpowered, level 100+ mobs arent high level. think way back in teh way back machine. Remember when the cap was just raised to 70, and the req on Hive S or A or whatever was 60? mobs were level 85? that is when we used to play level appropriate missions. by the time we were 85, that mission was no longer that bad. Even still barely anyone ran that mission untill we got like 90 cap.
We are end game now, most of us who have played since start have only been not overpowered when we were 1-60, because the cap raises slower than the content is released. Go level a new chr, going to the place that has the most exp mobs as soon as you can, you ll start to see what the difficulty was meant to be.
Fact is we mostly outlevel the difficulty in this game. if something is tough, we dont get better strategies, improve our gear or etc, we just come back when we gained 10 levels.
Dont think that a the content we currently have is meant to be hard for a team of level 100+ people

The way ata works is there is diminishing returns, that means when your on the low side, ever bit helps, but when your are high, usually not much difference. Anyone, come with me, lets go to hive, which is the highest Req place in the game, which isnt even supposed to be that hard for me at 110 because frankly when your 110 the game is all about speed killing for rares. see how much i miss.
You cant relate, as a cast FG you probably miss almost never, but trust me be a beast FF in a leveling zone, or a wartecher, and you will see the effect of low ata, as zeroes pop up on 1/3rd our attacks unless you can get behind them, which is not feasible and fairly time consuming most situations. i guarantee you its rarely an option with slicers.

Meet me, and be shocked and amazed as ata actually matters. Most of you are used to having level 21+ zodail you havent seen what that Force is really blessing you with. How much of your dmg you owe to that extra 5% ata. Most of you havent actually tried a zone till you make it easy by being very overlevel for it.
Beast FF even at max level still has zones and weapons which miss too much to be useful, even when they are as strong as the game allows them to be. Every ata is a killer

[physic]

ok since everyone thinks im lying or making up this thing about ata mattering, and missing when you arent grossly overlevel, we have a video capture!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AON60qg30mI

notice in the first few seconds how great it is at helping you eat megid, and no, you can move once you start the 2nd part of combo, so yeah your basically gonna get smashed by magic.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: physic on 2007-12-13 08:53 ]</font>

[Tiyr]

On 2007-12-13 08:51, physic wrote:
ok since everyone thinks im lying or making up this thing about ata mattering, and missing when you arent grossly overlevel, we have a video capture!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AON60qg30mI

notice in the first few seconds how great it is at helping you eat megid, and no, you can move once you start the 2nd part of combo, so yeah your basically gonna get smashed by magic.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: physic on 2007-12-13 08:53 ]</font>


My level 44 AF just ran White Beast A against level 70s. (granted, it is one of the better missions for slicers)

...yup, still too good.

[Pillan]

I'd say the fact that the mod is important makes the stat important. I have to agree with Physic. ATA was an issue when they added 100 mobs at the 80 cap and it was again an issue when they added HIVE at the 90 cap, but it's almost never an issue now that we're 110/15 with enemies ranging between 105 and 120 and higher ATA mods on all our skills thanks to the extra 10 levels.

I mean, the only time you use the full effect of your accuracy as a ranger is with Barada Maga and the first ult bow, which is why hunters and rangers have around the same accuracy (rangers actually have more at this point, but obviously not more enough to see a difference). The hunter's weak 300 ATA gets doubled by any given melee weapon and then the skill might lower it to 90%, so they're always in the 550-650 ATA range. While the ranger's mighty 900 ATA gets cut to 60-70% on any high damage weapon, which reduces you to 600-700, right there with the average hunter. The key difference being that the ranger classes are dependent on base accuracy and the hunter classes are not.

So, yeah, lower the slicer to around 200 ATA after the skill is equipped by a Beast Fortefighter and it will be fine. Or you can do any of the other acceptable methods (reduce it to 2-3 targets, add damage reflection, nerf the ATP mod of both parts so the highest mod is equal to Barta, etc.). I really don't care. Just don't do what Sonic Team did (reduce the weaker part by 20%).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-12-13 09:11 ]</font>

[physic]

AF has a 30% more ata and acess to S rank slicers so i wouldnt be surprised they dont miss, however they have nothing else for multi mobs, and pay the full cost to use it with less regen.
The plan of the nerf was reduce its accuracy to discourage FF
Increase cost of pp and pp regen to discourage others
Really now its still feasible, but as we get access to higher missions, and higher weapons, that low 9 star acc will look worse and worse.

[Pillan]

Well, I'd guess AF could get in the 70-75% hit rate range, with fF at 50-60% and FG right around AF with a 30-40% accuracy mod. Also AF has the highest PP regen and S slicer PP regen wasn't nerfed, so they recover 10 PP every 5 seconds. That's about as much as a Fortefighter saves each combo, but they also regen 3, so I'd guess Fortefighter would be able to spam it for a few seconds more. However, with a 30% ATA mod, Fortefighter would clearly be the least damaging with the move (thus forcing them to use close range options and balancing their stats), and AF would clearly be the best (thus retaining their supposed superiority with the weapon.

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-13 10:03, Pillan wrote:
Well, I'd guess AF could get in the 70-75% hit rate range, with fF at 50-60% and FG right around AF with a 30-40% accuracy mod. Also AF has the highest PP regen and S slicer PP regen wasn't nerfed, so they recover 10 PP every 5 seconds. That's about as much as a Fortefighter saves each combo, but they also regen 3, so I'd guess Fortefighter would be able to spam it for a few seconds more. However, with a 30% ATA mod, Fortefighter would clearly be the least damaging with the move (thus forcing them to use close range options and balancing their stats), and AF would clearly be the best (thus retaining their supposed superiority with the weapon.


Sounds great, email ST.

[physic]

ehhh with zodiaride i miss about 1/3rd in hive check the video, if not more, so id say its pretty close to 40 to 50% now. And im max level for the game. i couldnt use slicer effectively in most xp situations as an FF, its a cool option but unless your way over acc cap, or fighting mobs with fairl low acc for thier level, you will outdmg slicer with your 2 target damage options.
a level 110 at white beast is just over acc cap, as he should be, i mean its a level 70 cap zone, if i cant hit things 80%+ in a place im 40 levels over required thats insane.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-13 08:51, physic wrote:
ok since everyone thinks im lying or making up this thing about ata mattering, and missing when you arent grossly overlevel, we have a video capture!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AON60qg30mI

notice in the first few seconds how great it is at helping you eat megid, and no, you can move once you start the 2nd part of combo, so yeah your basically gonna get smashed by magic.




I guess you neglected to watch the part at the end of the video where he easily sidestepped the Megid (right around 0:24). Don't play like a jackass and you should be fine. Everyone feels the sting of Megid in the HIVE, weapons other than Slicers put you as just as much or more risk. The ridiculous range of Slicers at least gives you some time to react. You act as though Slicers are the only weapon that locks you into combos once you have started. Taking knocks on the chin is part of being a fighter.

I'm too lazy to quote it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif, but I'll address your point about accuracy: Guess what? Cast gunners miss in HIVE, and not just a 0 here and there. Fighters have high weapon ATA and low base, rangers have high base and low weapon ATA. In the end it just about evens out. You can bet that my Laser Cannon will spit just about as many 0s as a Slicer. The only time you get really laughable numbers of 0s is when a fighter class tries to use a low ATA weapon. Watching a FG friend use a Machinegun in the HIVE was just about the funniest thing I've ever seen.

[physic]

uh i side stepped it there because the animation was over, in other animations you often get a little bit of movement during the pa, and each part isnt that huge. in slicer you can not move at all from once you start twirling till after the 2nd shot fires off. when your fighting anything with range or a hop, this will generally get you hit, in case of reg attacks its no big deal, but in case of megid foie barta etc it can kill you pretty easily.

and, na you dont miss that much as a cast FG in hive because i play with a cast FG in hive, because your base ata is more than me and my weapons ata by a good amount
947 base ata for a maxed out FG, our not coming close to my acc with a slicer unless your using a weapon with no ata and something with a 50% mod on the PA

laser meteor cannon is 191 acc and the bullet has a 73% acc from level 20 on that puts me with a slicer at about 450 ata and you with a laser at about 830 ata. so if your missing with a laser, think about how im hitting with a slicer.

Im not saying fortefighters should expect to take i hit, im saying yeah we should but there is way more efficient dmg from other weapons, for us slicer is already nerfed, nerf it more and it becomes useful almost never.

By the way a cast Figunner with a 9 star mechgun has more ata than i do with a slicer

(587+82)x.87 = 582

Which honestly i wouldnt care if they had some other new weapon to give us in the expansion, because every other class has access to at least one new weapon or trap. Give me an adoog or a bow staff weapon and i ll glady kick slicer to the curb, till then dont kill my game because your overpowered.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-12-11 15:47, Tiyr wrote:
diminishing damage to each additional target it hits. IE, full damage to first target, 85% to the next, etc, etc to a certain minimum. Still wrecks whatever's closest, still hits everything, but can't wipe out an entire spawn in a combo.


Drastically reducting ata on chikki could be a solution. But I still favor the diminishing damage per target idea much better. Fighters could still try and snipe at things afar, but will pay for it in PP and damage when thrown into a mob. Hitting unlimited targets is also one of chikki's unique qualities and I'd hate to see it go. Just come and watch the pitiful damage once it hits the 6th target or so if they just distribute the damage out of chikki out better.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-12-13 08:51, physic wrote:
ok since everyone thinks im lying or making up this thing about ata mattering, and missing when you arent grossly overlevel, we have a video capture!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AON60qg30mI

notice in the first few seconds how great it is at helping you eat megid, and no, you can move once you start the 2nd part of combo, so yeah your basically gonna get smashed by magic.


Thank you physic! That's pretty much what my FiG looks like when I was equally leveled (player lvl vs. mob lvls) in White Beast S runs. lvl 75-ish. 0's, and sleep coming my way. Some times I need to side step, set up my next combo, drained of PP, etc. etc.

Like I said before, chikki is ONLY overpowerd IF you can manage to kill off a mob in ONE combo. If not, you're gonna get some tech coming your way, or the hassle of setting yourself up for the next combo compared to just switching to some other weapon/PA to finish off the remaining mob.

Sorry. I'm start'n to be a broken record. I'll stop now...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: chibiLegolas on 2007-12-13 14:06 ]</font>

[Pillan]

EDIT:

Oh, sorry. I misread that as saying slicer accuracy was low rather than slicer accuracy at your level was low. Also machineguns are the absolute highest accuracy gun a Fighgunner or Fortegunner can equip (assuming you're not reducing your ATA in any way and you're a Cast).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-12-13 13:44 ]</font>

[physic]

i bring the mechgun up mostly because he laughed at mechgun accuracy from his figh friend, and in all likelyhood, thats more accurate than a FF with a slicer.

[Pillan]

That's only true if you're a Cast Fighgunner using a Magga Guin and comparing it with a Fortefighter using a Fuma-hiken or weaker (assuming the skill and bullet are maxed). And even then the accuracy is so close that no one would be able to tell the difference.

[physic]

no i figured that based on a FF using the 9 star slicer, and a cast using.... teh one thats 82, but theres not much dif in ata on mechs anyhow. but it is close. however thats a ton of missing apparently