The difficulty factor.

[Nuclearranger]

I know this has been discussed but... am I the only one who wants missions to have more meening... As of now I run missions without thinking half asleep.

Monsters need 3X more HP and way more atp....

Also stop selling scape dolls that will make people pay more attention if monsters can kill you faster and you dont have scapes your going to have more fun.

Bosses.... I shouldnt be killing them in 10 seconds (30 seconds solo...)... at that rate.. to make a 2 minute boss fight they should almost increase HP by 10times on the new neudiaz mission but that would be extream on fakis. Bosses should also all get ATP and DFP increases and personaly should all have one move that will... indefinetly KO a few people..

Make some missions that will scare people...

Dont think I forgot about you soloers eather.. I know some people like to solo so they should add a SOLO mode... you would choose this and people wouldn't be able to join but monsters would be alittle easier.

Also JUST ATTACK should only be 1.5 of a critical hit and not a full crit because that drops monsters too fast....

All in all this game is getting too easy and I just saw falz in the MA-G and he went down in 20 seconds and I wonder why we even have *bosses* they arn't epic anymore.... The only one that is ever somwhat of a challenge is the robot on moatoob im not going to attempt to spell his name though lol.

We have missions we should be doing at level 70 or less...


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NuclearRanger on 2007-12-19 08:58 ]</font>

[Nuclearranger]

We have missions we should be doing at around level 70 IMO..

[darkante]

Yeah it is pretty sad how easy things is.
Something is seriously wrong when you can solo bosses in S2 with ease, specially Dulk Fakiz..he should be the king of the bosses seeing how frightful look he gives you. (lawl)

Only boss that really gives a good challenge is the Desert Goliath S2 Boss.
Mostly because he is extremly fast, cheap and teleports most of the time.
Definitively not solo friendly. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

But i wish more for easier drops to FG then difficulty fix.
I feel left out...http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Danger_Girl]

Bosses aside, adding more hits to mobs wont make the game any more difficult, just more of a grind. I'm all for increasing game difficulty though, perhaps enhanced mob SEs or something. Re-balancing certain skills wouldn't hurt either.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Danger_Girl on 2007-12-19 10:08 ]</font>

[amtalx]

Agreed. PSU feels like a relaxed game of Candyland now. I've actually dozed off in the middle of a mob and was still alive when I came back to reality. That should not be happening. I was actually pretty happy with things before they turned on "Ages 3-5" http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif. Fighters needed more power and drop rates needed to be adjusted, but that was about it. Now fighters are TOO powerful and rares are a little too common to be be considered rare.

I guess I'm hard to please. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Although I wouldn't be bitching so much if ST would give gunners something other than that bullsh!t Yohmei Rifle. "Here gunners. Have even less attack power. No don't thank us. Really, it's yours."

[beatrixkiddo]

The only solution to make any online Phantasy Star game more difficult? Megid.


EVERY FUCKING WHERE!

[darkante]

On 2007-12-19 10:23, amtalx wrote:
Agreed. PSU feels like a relaxed game of Candyland now. I've actually dozed off in the middle of a mob and was still alive when I came back to reality. That should not be happening. I was actually pretty happy with things before they turned on "Ages 3-5" http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif. Fighters needed more power and drop rates needed to be adjusted, but that was about it. Now fighters are TOO powerful and rares are a little too common to be be considered rare.

I guess I'm hard to please. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Although I wouldn't be bitching so much if ST would give gunners something other than that bullsh!t Yohmei Rifle. "Here gunners. Have even less attack power. No don't thank us. Really, it's yours."


Agreed, either they fix the drop rate on Blackbull/Rattlesnake on PSU orignal missions or just give us a expansion mission which drops those more easily.

Those are the only things i really want.

[F-Gattaca]

I said I would do it, didn't I? I said I would do it.

Consider all of you served with a relativistic knuckle sandwich. (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=162951&forum=11&48)

[Sychosis]

On 2007-12-19 10:30, F-Gattaca wrote:
I said I would do it, didn't I? I said I would do it.

Consider all of you served with a relativistic knuckle sandwich. (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=162951&forum=11&48)



A friend and I can duo him EASY. Yeah, he is EASY, tedious to chase around, but EASY.

[Pillan]

The difficulty of the game itself isn't so much a problem. The main problem is that we're still fighting the same enemies at 110/15 that were designed to be challenging for 80/10s.

[Reipard]

The difficulty of the game itself isn't so much a problem. The main problem is that we're still fighting the same enemies at 110/15 that were designed to be challenging for 80/10s.

This.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-19 10:30, F-Gattaca wrote:
I said I would do it, didn't I? I said I would do it.

Consider all of you served with a relativistic knuckle sandwich. (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=162951&forum=11&48)



Myself and four friends of mine were beating up on the 2nd Habirao mission so badly I decided to leave and challenge myself. Being rash and foolish like I can be sometimes, I decided I would solo Magas with no NPCs. It took me as long to beat Magas as it did to finish both block 1 and 2 combined, but I did it using only 1 scape. Using a Blackbull +5, Beam Vulcanic +2 (yeah...still need to grind that), 30% Lightning Delette Line and Lvl 30 Grav Fury/Grav Shot, it's really not all that hard. Tedious? Yes. But not hard.

EDIT:

Protip: If you get up under his junk with a Machinegun, he can't hit you unless he does his ground smash thing. He practically sends up warning flares before he does that though. That gives you plenty of time to get out of the way. Do that untill is bottom falls off and finish him off with a Rifle. EOF


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: amtalx on 2007-12-19 11:04 ]</font>

[F-Gattaca]

Actually, amtalx, wouldn't it be considered difficult if such a battle tested your endurance and your ability to keep on it? I always thought that was an aspect of the "Nintendo Hard" difficulty.

Anyway, I think Pillan has the right idea here--most of us are just too high leveled for the missions available, but that does not mean PSU is easier than preschool. I stand by what I said about the game in my other link; the best way to discover its challenge is to play an alt and do the hardest missions available at the earliest opportunities.

Maybe that's what we need--something permanently over our heads, no matter how leveled we are. Maybe Sonic Team needs to give us the finger and provide us with a U-rank difficulty where mobs are around level 300 or so, accessible starting from level 100. No, this is not snark or sarcasm, I'm dead serious.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: F-Gattaca on 2007-12-19 11:10 ]</font>

[Fresh]

Im wondering what boss you can kill in 30 seconds solo........

[panzer_unit]

Leveling alts on a team is challenging and tons of fun right now. These are GREAT missions for appropriate-level characters. Soloing missions for rares with a maxxed out dood, the difficulty and time required are pretty reasonable. Actually some missions are pretty hard or at least kinda costly on healing items.

What I don't get is people who need to cling together in teams of 6 with protransers randomly dropping Freeze EX traps whenever more than 3 monsters show up at once. You know you could be doing it almost as fast in a team of 3 with twice the loot per person, right? There's a fixed amount of running you have to do to get through each block... even if you had 100 guys on your team that wouldn't change.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-19 11:06, F-Gattaca wrote:
Actually, amtalx, wouldn't it be considered difficult if such a battle tested your endurance and your ability to keep on it? I always thought that was an aspect of the "Nintendo Hard" difficulty.


I'm not really sure that kind of difficulty really applies with an ORPG. Platforming ability and reaction time need not apply to PSU. I think the challenge lies in formulating solid party strategies. Unfortunately, that's no longer necessary since just about everything dies before it can reach me if I'm using my super-flinching Lulzer Cannon. SE? Nope. Flinching enemies so fighters don't get bashed? Nada. Need buffs? Better off without them. At least everyone can tag the enemies before they die.



Maybe that's what we need--something permanently over our heads, no matter how leveled we are. Maybe Sonic Team needs to give us the finger and provide us with a U-rank difficulty where mobs are around level 300 or so, accessible starting from level 100. No, this is not snark or sarcasm, I'm dead serious.


YES!

[joluh]

You could always try doing things like a Female Newman Hunter type, without any elemental armors nor weapons, or using Ice Weapons on Ice enemies while wearing a Fire armor; I do that sort of things offline so that I can have a challenge sometimes, then other times I just overpower myself and pretty much fly through the site, it depends on my mood, but this game can be as easy or as challenging as you wish.

[VanHalen]

I think the new stages have a large lack of Megid. We all need more Megid right? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

I think Sinue said in another topic that we need a whole stage and rooms for a boss. That would be pretty epic.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VanHalen on 2007-12-19 11:23 ]</font>

[Xaeris]

The game offers a much more reasonable experience when you're tackling it at the minimum level. I've been having a blast with my 60 caseal alt ('course, the fact she's smokin' doesn't hurt) in most of the missions I do. Even the snoozefest that's White Beast as my main is entertaining when your team isn't two shotting everything...until someone takes out their slicer anyway. Honestly, that thing is rude to use in a party, but I digress.

Point was made earlier; we've gotten stronger. The enemies have not. When the cap was 80, we had 105 critters running about. We're 110 now. Enemies have gained 5 levels since then. When Sega's done nursing newbies into the established population, I think we'll see some missions balanced for the rest of us. I hope.

P.S: AF > Magas. Seriously, cards make the fight idiotproof.

[Soulvayne]

If we eventually get S3 type missions they should have a variable enemy levels or something maybe have all the enemies 30 levels higher than the highest member of the party or something or some how base it on the number of players in the mission, with the levels resetting less/more after each block to take into account players jumping in mid level or leaving.

[EvilSlacker]

mass appeal is a bitter pill for some. then again some will whine no matter what the circumstance might be. just a game after all. play or dont play and by all means dont play if it isnt fun. there are numerous other games to satisfy your craving. the changes were necessary for the greater good. grinding was tedious and the lack of variety in equipment and levels made some feel short changed. if you want something more in depth go on over to WOW or something of that nature. I kinda dig the easy laid back when you want it or the intense rare hunting if that suits your mood. mass appeal is key to prolong the life of the game. i see this as possibly the last iteration of Pso or atleast the last one I will be a part of. I like the game a lot, despite the flaws that include people whining no matter what changes ST make.

[doubleEXP]

On 2007-12-19 11:23, VanHalen wrote:
I think the new stages have a large lack of Megid. We all need more Megid right? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

I think Sinue said in another topic that we need a whole stage and rooms for a boss. That would be pretty epic.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VanHalen on 2007-12-19 11:23 ]</font>


* equips EDK resist gear: Shield of Delsaber, Resist Devil x4, Celestial Armor *

* takes bath in pool full of pure megid *

mmm... megid... ahhh so... pureplicious

[Oniko]

On 2007-12-19 11:06, F-Gattaca wrote:
Maybe that's what we need--something permanently over our heads, no matter how leveled we are. Maybe Sonic Team needs to give us the finger and provide us with a U-rank difficulty where mobs are around level 300 or so, accessible starting from level 100. No, this is not snark or sarcasm, I'm dead serious.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: F-Gattaca on 2007-12-19 11:10 ]</font>


300? No, they need a boss that is level 9999, but also transmigrated at level 9999 30 times, so he's actually closer to level 9999x20. This boss would also drop 6 S ranks based on the classes in the team, should you manage to defeat it. It should also be known as....Pringer X! >.>

In all seriousness though, I agree with this idea.

[Miyoko]

Me and one other friend, a gunner,have been duoing De Rol S since my beast FF hit Lv55, and we have't had any trouble with it at all. Not even on the boss. :l I can often go through the entire level using only my Nei Claw for healing, and nothing else.

The fact that I can run blindly into a group of enemies +40 my level, without even caring about getting hurt, should say something about the difficulty (or imbalance) of the game :/ The ONLY threatening enemy in the entire level, are the super-buffed vanda. Anything else is just fodder.

[physic]

ehhh pso wasnt really very difficult, so i dont expect psu to be. Also adding more hit points doesnt mean the game is harder, just means it takes longer, which i see very little value in. Far as fighters being overpowered, i can solo seed awakened in virtually the same time as with my PT, except my FF dies way more/uses more mats. and hes got 12 levels on my PT, sooo i dont really think fighter is overpowered, just seems that way when they got other people to support them with buffs heals and distracting mobs.

The real true answer that solves all and makes people happy, C-mode.
C-mode provides challenge to people who want to have it, with reward. then the reg level becomes mostly rare hunting and exp grind, in which case you prefer it to be fast.

only problem is, got to have something so that you can keep doing cmode and get some reward, cant just delete a chr all the time like we used to do.

[Esufer]

I forsee slicers being mentioned.

[HaydenX]

Slicers OMG. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Miren]

On 2007-12-19 11:10, Fresh wrote:
Im wondering what boss you can kill in 30 seconds solo........



alteraz

[Pandorasbox]

If I can put in my two cents:
On the overall side: PSU is kinda easy. To me though it isn't the fighting that makes PSU easy but it is an issue. I think PSU can benefit from special mission types. Just like event missions but on a more permanent level. More traps,more enemy abilities,etc might be nice too. As of now it's free missions that are: Clear this or End this boss. I honestly believe the newer missions are more difficult than pre-AOI. Rare hunting to me is harder than in PSO. I miss the PSO endless wave quests (can't remeber name).

[Randomness]

To everyone who goes on about being able to kill stuff too easy, I demand you go and try to solo level 100+ enemies at level 90... with a force type. (As in, primary focus is techs, so no wartechers or guntechers either. AT and FT.)

Actually, I want to see someone clear Lightning Beasts S at level 90/10 AT in under 20 minutes.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I say wait for S2 when we'll get lv 150-200 monsters or so. Pillan is right though, the enemies that were once a terror for us at lv 80/10 are now cakewalks for lv 110/15 guys.

[Bman40]

On 2007-12-19 10:26, darkante wrote:

On 2007-12-19 10:23, amtalx wrote:
Agreed. PSU feels like a relaxed game of Candyland now. I've actually dozed off in the middle of a mob and was still alive when I came back to reality. That should not be happening. I was actually pretty happy with things before they turned on "Ages 3-5" http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif. Fighters needed more power and drop rates needed to be adjusted, but that was about it. Now fighters are TOO powerful and rares are a little too common to be be considered rare.

I guess I'm hard to please. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Although I wouldn't be bitching so much if ST would give gunners something other than that bullsh!t Yohmei Rifle. "Here gunners. Have even less attack power. No don't thank us. Really, it's yours."


Agreed, either they fix the drop rate on Blackbull/Rattlesnake on PSU orignal missions or just give us a expansion mission which drops those more easily.

Those are the only things i really want.

how bout` expanding that to all 11* guns

[Dragwind]

I can almost guarantee we will get harder missions catered to those looking for a challenge. I think the reason they made everything we currently have easier to complete is for the new players wanting to be able to join into the fray with less difficulty.

If I remember correctly, someone found "s3" and s4" picture icons in the AoI image files. We should still be getting S2 versions of the AoI missions which I'm expecting to see 120-130+ enemies at least.

I'm surprised people haven't been keeping this in mind.

[majan]

On 2007-12-19 17:13, Dragwind wrote:
I can almost guarantee we will get harder missions catered to those looking for a challenge. I think the reason they made everything we currently have easier to complete is for the new players wanting to be able to join into the fray with less difficulty.

If I remember correctly, someone found "s3" and s4" picture icons in the AoI image files. We should still be getting S2 versions of the AoI missions which I'm expecting to see 120-130+ enemies at least.

I'm surprised people haven't been keeping this in mind.



don't be surprised. people dont usually use their heads,they just search around for hearing precisely what they want to hear and dont bother thinking much beyond that.

what people still have not realized is that while this is an expansion,it still is a new game that we purchased and have just begun to play. the same way PSU was new for a while and sega like a bunch of fucking hippies has to drip feed us the content lagging further and further behind japan, thats whats going on here. people shouldnt expect this to be difficult from the getgo because this is a new game that is trying to appeal to new players and draw people in, while appeasing the veteran players by throwing them easier to attain rares and fresh,new,easier missions than what we've been used to.

now granted it is a little sad how easy things are at the moment,and I do agree that it is rather unbalanced. but this game, techinically speaking,has only been out for about a month,give or take. once the content starts to come together and start to get really rolling,then well have more challenging and worthwhile things to do on our hands. why do you think they gave everybody a stat boost? to go thorugh the same missions faster? that doesnt sound like an expansion to me. obviously,they eventualyl will be throwing us some very hard missions that, were it not for all these generous stat increases,we'd be pretty damn well fucked.

yes,the level cap is gonna keep going up too,but character level means only so much. the buffs we received were mainly in the stats department and everything pretty much received a huge push. as we level up,we're going to continue to get stronger, but at the original pace set prior to all the massive buffs we got with the expansion. our strength will go from overpowering to balanced,in due time.

motherbrain S has level 120 monsters. boss is level 125. S rank. now take yourself back in time about 10 months when the first S rank missions of PSU1 came out. level 55 monsters. the highest S rank level monsters we faced,correct me if I am wrong, was level 90 in mad beasts. thats a difference of 35 levels. so if this trend continues,the best S rank AOI mission will be featuring level 135-140 creatures. those will be,I daresay,a mild bit stronger than the ones we face now.

S2 of these current AOI missions should be rather interesting as well,mother brain being a perfect example(also let it be known that there are many missions we still havent seen,probably even on S rank alone still are higher than mother brain)mother brain S2 will likely have level 140 or maybe even higher enemies. scary enough? consider military subway S2 for a second. in previous S2 missions,they play around with the spawns a little bit to add a little more zest and challenge,sch as the extra svaltuses(or svalti?plural?give a shit?) in sleeping warriors, and all those horny gol dovas in mad beasts. its safe to say that military subway S2 will not be a cakewalk.

S3 and S4 stuff,too,which will probably apply to the new AOI stuff as well as the PSU1 stuff. heres a little rundown of things people will be prety scared to run:
desert goliath S3+ will be the biggest terd of a mission to run. magus magahna at levels higher than 120 makes me wonder whether or not people will still be complaining about a difficulty problem.
train rescue S3+ will also be a complete shit show. those rouges on S2 now have a hell of a lot of HP and can kill you much faster than you can kill them. mobs of them moving faster doing more damage and having more HP is a very bad thing.
military subway S2+,reasons mentioned above.
SEED awakened S3+ will be horrifying. though,noone will run it not only because of how bad it will be,but because they can accompllish the same thing by doing true darkness,which will be pretty easy compared to the rest,save for high level gaozorans,which wil probably piss off a lot of people. this is why I hope sega pressures people to do seed awakened by doing things like having a higher level bracket so that fakis drops better shit on SEED awakened S3 than on true darkness S3.
a number of others,but count on these missions correcting the difficulty issue once the higher ranks come out. my suggestion is to sit tight and enjoy the easy mode spell now before it's broken. its gonna be a rude,rude awakening when it does and people realize that they cant just mindlessly breeze through every mission anymore.

also, you dont hear a lot of poeple complaining because everybody's been running the same missions since AOI hit. 6 person parties of well-leveled well-equipped parties will perform rather consistently pretty much no matter what. if you take matters elsewhere though and try running things with say a smaller group of friends, youll find the game a lot more challenging without all of the majarra-spamming slicer-toting meat shields around you.

people who arent being challenged arent looking for one and dont give a shit to find one,and I know that this post will most likely be overlooked because its not wat people want to hear but I dont think its too far off from wat we can expect. after all,all Im suggesting is to have a little patience with it and wait till they start showing us some real shit before judging the game as having an easy mode problem.

what drives a game's longevity is the difficulty and challenge factor-what makes you come back for more. in this case, its what keeps us putting the $10/month in sega's pocket. do you think theyre going to make this game overly easy and frustrate veteran players who are looking for a challenge and some real enjoyment just to appease new players? no,theyll appease the new players first by making things nice and easy to pick up and play,then theyll reward the veterans in the end. remember the PSO days? control tower? seabed on ultimate? yeah, good times. challenging times. if you want a good loook at whats to come, relax and enjoy the ride and if your curious check out how PSO went.

[YUKI_N]

On 2007-12-19 15:14, Randomness wrote:
Actually, I want to see someone clear Lightning Beasts S at level 90/10 AT in under 20 minutes.

Is 88/13 FT acceptable?

[spoiler-box]http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii165/yuki_sos/psu20071218_053236_003.jpg[/spoiler-box]

[Pengfishh]

On 2007-12-19 10:25, beatrixkiddo wrote:
The only solution to make any online Phantasy Star game more difficult? Megid.


EVERY FUCKING WHERE!



Yes please.

[F-Gattaca]

On 2007-12-19 17:13, Dragwind wrote:
I can almost guarantee we will get harder missions catered to those looking for a challenge. I think the reason they made everything we currently have easier to complete is for the new players wanting to be able to join into the fray with less difficulty.

If I remember correctly, someone found "s3" and s4" picture icons in the AoI image files. We should still be getting S2 versions of the AoI missions which I'm expecting to see 120-130+ enemies at least.

I'm surprised people haven't been keeping this in mind.




On 2007-12-19 18:01, majan wrote:
don't be surprised. people dont usually use their heads,they just search around for hearing precisely what they want to hear and dont bother thinking much beyond that.

Actually, I do remember those icons, the product of a graphics glitch which revealed some of the UI graphics files, used on walls and floors instead of the correct textures. (Or perhaps it was intentional by data diggers? I don't remember that part exactly.)

Believe me, I was thinking about it when I mentioned the U-Rank thing. S3, S4, and even S5 will be great and welcomed, but I'm not so sure that they will provide the level gap certain people need to find a challenge in the game--after all, our level caps will increase, and we'll be getting access to stronger and stronger weapons.

That and I'm thinking about the endgame here; will S4/S5 missions provide a level for monsters that's unreachable by players, requiring them to use fancy footwork, teamwork, and wit to survive the mission intact?

[Zorafim]

The problem is, Sega can't add more difficulty without just adding in frustration. No matter what they do, I seriously doubt they can make the game challenging.

Actually, you know what they need to do? Get rid of scapes from vendors (make us synth for the things, it shouldn't be that easy to get them), and add in a half second animation when using items (so that we can't use them mid-PA, or while being attacked, etc). As it stands, I can go from full HP to quarter in a matter of seconds while using a PA, then go back to full with a twitch of the thumb. If I do manage to die, which is not unforeseeable, I have a bunch of scapes on me that I can use. None of that makes the game fun at all, so why have it? Make us work to heal ourselves and keep ourselves alive.

Of course, there's also a problem with being insta-killed by buffed vahra groups that can't be flinched, or getting diga'd to death through no fault of your own in a matter of seconds. It's just easier to say that Sega is lazy and be on with it.

[darkante]

On 2007-12-20 02:36, Zorafim wrote:
The problem is, Sega can't add more difficulty without just adding in frustration. No matter what they do, I seriously doubt they can make the game challenging.

Actually, you know what they need to do? Get rid of scapes from vendors (make us synth for the things, it shouldn't be that easy to get them), and add in a half second animation when using items (so that we can't use them mid-PA, or while being attacked, etc). As it stands, I can go from full HP to quarter in a matter of seconds while using a PA, then go back to full with a twitch of the thumb. If I do manage to die, which is not unforeseeable, I have a bunch of scapes on me that I can use. None of that makes the game fun at all, so why have it? Make us work to heal ourselves and keep ourselves alive.

Of course, there's also a problem with being insta-killed by buffed vahra groups that can't be flinched, or getting diga'd to death through no fault of your own in a matter of seconds. It's just easier to say that Sega is lazy and be on with it.


Well, i sure don´t want scape dolls to go away. :S
Sure it brings out more teamplay.
But..gah then soloing is no point in my case..why?
Cheap deaths by Dulk Fakiz on TD that´s what (with the paralyse sometimes goes in while meteor comes when im not at my full strenght)..

I sure as hell don´t wanna team up there with people i don´t trust.
Blackbull is too rare as it is IMO...

Hell,i you people want scape dolls away.
Then don´t use it?
There solution solved. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

ok, this is a little selfish desires of me but plz understand what frustration i would have then. :S

[Zorafim]

That's another point I want to make, cheap insta-kills. I get insta-killed way too often, or at least used to. If done strategically, yes, it can be fun. But considering you're grinding in these areas, I see no reason why there should be an attack that can take even the most skilled player from full health to dead without chance of retaliation, even from the most difficult boss in the game, unless you can level up so that the attack isn't as bad.

Examples of things I don't like are Ragnus tail swipes (attacking twice before a mate can be used, often for more than half a player's health, and is nearly impossible to dodge), Vanda groups (either Diga'd to death or damfoied to death, no in between), buffed Vahra groups (multiple jumps often kill even the hardiest of fortefighters), Jarbas (if the high level megid's incapacitation doesn't kill you, the damage done will), you get the idea. Scapes are, well, a scapegoat for these things to exist. I can't think of any other game where I said "gee, I'm glad that random, common enemy killed me instantly in a common situation," yet I can't count the times that's happened here.

It's either too easy or too punishing.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-19 18:01, majan wrote:

mega-post



I see what you are saying, but the problem is we are advancing almost as fast or faster than the enemies. Lvl 180 enemies would be great but it will still be easy if the cap is 170.

AoI made us stronger, but the enemies stayed the same. So while a Lvl 120 enemy would have been challenging pre-AoI, its a joke now thanks to everyones ~300 ATP boost, PA/Weapons buffs, and the fact that just about every move in the game can cancel enemy attacks. Thats not even considering that PAs go to 40 now, on top of a 110 level cap and level 15 jobs.

I haven't bothered to do any research, but JPs cap is about to go to 130, and I don't see them fighting Lvl 150+ enemies. We almost certainly share the same fate. S2s on the AoI missions might have been challenging...if we had them now. Unless the enemy level cap is going to jump 50+ for S2, I still don't see any challenge in the immediate future.

It's most likely that the final level cap will be 200 and classes will go to 20. Who knows, if this game is supposed to have a "5-year plan" I would also imagine that the PA level cap will be raised to at least 50 at some point (probably along with the 20 class cap). If any of that is even a remote possibility, enemies are going to need massive buffs.

[bloodflowers]

Two of the biggest failings were making enemies so much more vulnerable to SE (Rangers - you are now redundant), and adding flinch to everything. Poor monsters can't even attack as they're too busy having a seizure.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-20 04:44, bloodflowers wrote:
Two of the biggest failings were making enemies so much more vulnerable to SE (Rangers - you are now redundant), and adding flinch to everything. Poor monsters can't even attack as they're too busy having a seizure.


I like that as a ranger... even if it hurts the difficulty of the game it does a lot to make every class of gun more enjoyable to play.

For addressing difficulty, I don't think enemies need a whole lot more HP... they should get a serious damage boost (in AOI S2 missions, leave S missions soloable) so slip-ups on teamwork will result in fatalities. I think that's gonna be how things end up anyway, since DFP doesn't count for much and you can't boost your hitpoints with any sort of loot.

We should sticky this thread though, as a pre-emptive STFU for people who start riding around in a waaaaahhhmbulance about difficulty when we get an update that adds some.

[Powder Keg]

Obviously, newer difficulties are going to be released later. S rank missions for the new ones have enemies at level 110 right now, so S2 is clearly going to be 150+. And have you tried the AMF Platform mission that's 5 blocks? That one's not very easy.

Also, I don't know if S3 or an equivalent is going to exist for the older missions. Places like Holy Ground, Crimson Beast etc still don't have monsters around lvl 100.

[majan]

On 2007-12-20 04:41, amtalx wrote:

On 2007-12-19 18:01, majan wrote:

mega-post



I see what you are saying, but the problem is we are advancing almost as fast or faster than the enemies. Lvl 180 enemies would be great but it will still be easy if the cap is 170.

you are overestimating the amount of strength we will be getting with leveling up our characters. the gain in strength we got is attributed 99.9% to the huge buff that all the classes got from AOI. levelling up will make us stronger,yes,but at a more realistic pace. by the time were level 170 I am sure we will be seeing monsters much higher than level 180. if not,then the level 180 monsters are ones we sure as fuck won't want to be facing,such as the aforementioned rouges in desert goliath and train rescue and military subway. the strength boost we get from leveling up and getting better equipment will seem futile in the long run compared to the enormous increase we got from the ATP and element strength boost.

AoI made us stronger, but the enemies stayed the same. So while a Lvl 120 enemy would have been challenging pre-AoI, its a joke now thanks to everyones ~300 ATP boost, PA/Weapons buffs, and the fact that just about every move in the game can cancel enemy attacks. Thats not even considering that PAs go to 40 now, on top of a 110 level cap and level 15 jobs.

I haven't bothered to do any research, but JPs cap is about to go to 130, and I don't see them fighting Lvl 150+ enemies. We almost certainly share the same fate. S2s on the AoI missions might have been challenging...if we had them now. Unless the enemy level cap is going to jump 50+ for S2, I still don't see any challenge in the immediate future.

we havent even seen all of the new missions yet,let alone S2 versions of the old ones. regardless of the character level we face them at,I imagine it wont be much of a cakewalk. having ~ 100 to 200 more HP and 80 more atp because of an increase of 20 c-levels will be futile against stronger enemies. also,what pepole neglect to realize is the fact that the challenges are out there. sure okay desert goliath S2 now isnt as much of a challenge as it used to be because were stronger,but much more daunting versions of that missoin are to come. like I said,we havent even seen all of the AOI missions yet. we didn't even get real tangibly challenging PSU1 missions until bruce's dungeon which we got months after the game's release. give it time and lets check out all the missions first. by the time we get bored with them we'll have S2's on our hands to deal with.

It's most likely that the final level cap will be 200 and classes will go to 20. Who knows, if this game is supposed to have a "5-year plan" I would also imagine that the PA level cap will be raised to at least 50 at some point (probably along with the 20 class cap). If any of that is even a remote possibility, enemies are going to need massive buffs.

the PA cap and class level cap will probaly go respectively to 50 and 20 when the master class information is released. do not quote me,but if that isnt logical,then I dont know what is.

also,like I said how they did with sleeping warriors S2 how it had extra svaltuses,they could also do that with these AOI missions. military subway S2 I imagine will have a hell of a lot more than just higher level enemies.

once again in closing I say, sega is appeasing the beginner players and making the game easy to pick up and play first. of course its going to seem easy for us whove been playing and enjoying a challenge. do you think that just because they wnat to draw in more players theyre going to totally neglect the veterans? no. thats not how it went in PSO and its not how itll go here. to turn away all the veteran players by offering no challenge and no replay value is counter-intuitive for them. its less people that will want to pay them the 10 dollars a month.

after all were all just speaking hypothetically arent we? in reality,we don't really know shit about what's to come. so either be frustrated and quit or sit and enjoy the game. just dont sit and whine to us about how non-challenging the game is while still playing it.

[amtalx]

I wasn't implying that PSU will never have another challenge. My point is that it's easy and it's going to be that way for a while.

Being US players give us the advantage of a fortune-telling crystal ball that is the JP servers. It's fluctuated quite a bit over the course of PSU's life, but they have managed to stay about 2 months ahead of us on average. Their level cap is about to be higher than the enemy cap. With the way things have been, that seems a little backwards.

You're right in saying that ST could unleash Armageddon at any point with a mission that has insane difficulty. There is nothing stopping them from adding an enemy that debuffs all your skills to level 5 and turns you into a rappy. However, all the "well, ST could do this..." in the world won't change how barbarically they hammered the easy button for AoI.

Generally speaking, ORPGs are always introduced with problems (drop rates, class/skill balancing, etc.) It's the dev teams job to fix them as they go. Creating them along the way is not what I'm looking for.

[majan]

On 2007-12-20 11:15, amtalx wrote:
I wasn't implying that PSU will never have another challenge. My point is that it's easy and it's going to be that way for a while.

Being US players give us the advantage of a fortune-telling crystal ball that is the JP servers. It's fluctuated quite a bit over the course of PSU's life, but they have managed to stay about 2 months ahead of us on average. Their level cap is about to be higher than the enemy cap. With the way things have been, that seems a little backwards.

You're right in saying that ST could unleash Armageddon at any point with a mission that has insane difficulty. There is nothing stopping them from adding an enemy that debuffs all your skills to level 5 and turns you into a rappy. However, all the "well, ST could do this..." in the world won't change how barbarically they hammered the easy button for AoI.
Generally speaking, ORPGs are always introduced with problems (drop rates, class/skill balancing, etc.) It's the dev teams job to fix them as they go. Creating them along the way is not what I'm looking for.



hear hear. ultimately its up to us impateint asshole americans to cool our jets and just relax and enjoy the game as its fed to us.

hopefully whatever event they are giving us in january will be somewhat appeasing and not just more colorful taffy to chew on. I'm just hoping thye dont biff up yet another huge update like tomorrows. watch the servers come up tomorrow and every one of the new PA's be an instant nanoblast,or cause the screen to spawn 12 darbelans every time the PA strikes its target.. then its, "whoops, we may or may not have to execute a rollback. oh, we just did. excuse us while we make you feel like idiots for paying us to provide this glitchtastic game for you that we put minimal to no effort in!"

[Zorafim]

If you're going to boost the damage done by enemies, then give us hunters some way to actually dodge or something. I'm tired of unforeseen attacks insta-killing my character because I start a PA just before they attack. Some dodge roll or 100% block, even a way to cancel out of a PA so we can run away when we see them attacking. If not, make more attacks like Majarra's first hit or this new twin claw PA that lets us dodge and evade while we're doing them.

Again, I'm all for challenge, but not for tedium. I want to play a game, not press buttons. And if enemies become too strong or weak, that's what happens. It just becomes a spam fest, one way or another.

[Jife_Jifremok]

I agree with everything I can remember the fishdude posting on this thread. I'll just add that the way the game isi currently, and even pre-AoI, I found that the least boring way to fight was just spam the PA (or shoot) button and heal as needed, with maybe the occasional running around to avoid damage (mainly the cheap deaths like megid and dambarta). Time spent dodging is usually time better spent just eating damage while dishing it out. Making enemies take longer to die will not remedy this, and making them attack stronger will only make for more time spent dodging (with only the basic "just run around!" method of evasion) and making battles drag out even more. Hell, if battles are gonna be made longer, at least make them INTERESTING. Most bosses are just irritating to fight since they just stay out of attakc range!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jife_Jifremok on 2007-12-20 21:19 ]</font>

[amtalx]

All things considered, adding more HP/ATP to enemies won't necessarily make the game more fun. Maybe if there were more than 5 AI schemes, battles might actually require thought. They should start adding battles like Olga Flow. Fight him the wrong way, you get a Dark Flow where the sun don't shine. Fight him correctly, it's a lot of fun. For now, all the battles are just"HULK SMASH" until the boss is dead.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-12-20 20:45, Zorafim wrote:
If you're going to boost the damage done by enemies, then give us hunters some way to actually dodge or something. I'm tired of unforeseen attacks insta-killing my character because I start a PA just before they attack. Some dodge roll or 100% block, even a way to cancel out of a PA so we can run away when we see them attacking. If not, make more attacks like Majarra's first hit or this new twin claw PA that lets us dodge and evade while we're doing them.

There's a reason all the best DPS moves have no crowd control on the first two moves, using them to full effect should be a reward for being properly supported by your team... if you don't have that sort of backup, it wouldn't be too much to expect that a fighter stop mashing the win button PA's and pick something more defense-oriented. Maybe get some reach for first strike advantage, something that opens up with heavy multi-target stagger or fast launches to prevent retaliation, etc.

If you want to go with some finesse, why not spend half a second sidestepping around your target until it whiffs an attack at you and then open up a can on it, or use some of the moves that DO let you maneuver while they're going off? Having to take your hands off of pablum like Majarra and use other moves would almost be like balance between various types of PA :/


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-12-21 07:22 ]</font>

[Nuclearranger]

The way things are we need to fight things 30+ our level hopfully sega sets monsters this high in S2 AOI or S3 basic missions...

[SolomonGrundy]

a few things:

1. Anyone remember what happened when thier very first character made it to level 80 and went online into ultimate mode (especially if you were a ranger or human force?)?

2. Vanilla PSU was hard. S ranks were rare, and most PAs were not all that damaging. DoTs and Techs ruled the earth (people remember FTs posting pics of them crushing missions in the 8-10 miunte time frame).

2a. People whined. Enemies got easier, missions got shorter. Though Vanilla was still hard, the tide was turning.

3. 1UPCUP did a few things: broke the rarity on several S rank items (halarods, and crimsons for example). Made material huntung a joke (I had alt characters soloing C rank missions and gathering resins and ebons) . It also allowed folks to level at breakneck speed, so that everyone was level capping

4. AoI hits: character stats are adjusted so everyone can equip weapons and armor at lower levels. The synth reward is delivered so a flood of hihg rank weapons and armor hit the market (the weapons are moer important, armor was nerfed). Synth %s were changed so you could actually get decent %'s on weapons as well. Not to mention MORE %s were added (32%, 36%, 42%, 46%, etc) so you had more chances at having a great weapon.

5. new weapon types were added (slicer and whip). Slicer PA: broken, and whip: gave WT/AT something they they did not have before - the delivery of SEs at a fast procurement rate. To add to this, Just Attack, and upgraded skill PA damage happened. Since armor got nerfed, HP became king. Fortefighters now ruled the earth.


Then the new missions were released...and given 3 through 5, there is simply no way enemies could compete.


How to fix this? In my humple optinion you have to create a NEED for various jobs to work together. To me, that means DEBUFFING should become a priority, if not for every enemy, then certainly specific enemies. And DEFEINTELY bosses.
that should add utility for the techers.

I'd like to see DFP play a greater role in how damage is dealt, but that's a personal nitpick, and may folks prefer to be Fighters anyway, so there is less of a *need* to do something to get fighting types on a team.

that leaves gunners...and and what do gunning types offer that otehr types dont? Well, for one, they offer SE thorugh thier bullets - killer shot is a great example. but since the lowering of stamina, and weapons like the whip coming on scene, SEs are able to be inflicted by too many job types (it's really only fortefighter who cannot inflcit them well).

To fix that. I am suggesting that all large type enemies ONLY be affected by SE 4, or traps.

[PinkyBloodyArt]

Trouble is everyone is humping there slicer/ex trap/whip SE/ ridding the spear if the game is to easy stop what you are doing and do something a bit more challenging, wait if you really wanted a harder game you would not try so hard to be OPed

[60Hz]

Hmm more bruce's would be nice... keep the common missions for the chumps and give us the do or die missions... thats my holiday wish...

[superdood22]

More obstacles like boulders and falling branches or pitfall traps or slippery ice or deep puddles that slow you down when moving in them, fog, rain, lighting strikes from storms that come and go, wind that knocks you back if you cant withstand it (press X rapidly while trying to move up the mountain to resist the wind from knocking you back!!!),.

fires from fire elemental thingies, water that can be frozen with ice element, shooting lightning element attacks in water would zap all the enemies in the water!!!

Dont use loud noise attacks in a icy mountain or you will have to try to escape oncoming avalanche.

Thin ice that can break if you dont walk on it, you will die if you break the ice and fall in, you will slowly lose hp while drowning!!

Quick sand.

Sand storms.

Tornadoes.

Lava from a volcano.

Hanging electrical cords that can zap you.

Whirlpools.

Large waves from the beach that can knock you over in the lobby.

SOMETHING!!!!!

[Broodstar1337]

There are some good ideas in this thread. I don't forsee PSU incorporating many of them, though, until ST figures out how to make the game so that it doesn't run on shit on every single console available (I've even heard of people getting slowdown problems on Electronic Brain here).

As for now, Electronic Brain is a good start. Orcdillians and SEED-Arclite are pretty much constantly on the prowl and wailing on you. It's a good change of pace to see enemies actually able to fight back, but it's still merely a start.

[beatrixkiddo]

On 2007-12-21 10:37, SolomonGrundy wrote:

I'd like to see DFP play a greater role in how damage is dealt,

You do realize that all the classes with high DFP have high HP, making this point kind of moot, especially since you already said "HP is king, making Fortefighter the best" or whatever.

[darkante]

On 2007-12-21 19:45, superdood22 wrote:
More obstacles like boulders and falling branches or pitfall traps or slippery ice or deep puddles that slow you down when moving in them, fog, rain, lighting strikes from storms that come and go, wind that knocks you back if you cant withstand it (press X rapidly while trying to move up the mountain to resist the wind from knocking you back!!!),.

fires from fire elemental thingies, water that can be frozen with ice element, shooting lightning element attacks in water would zap all the enemies in the water!!!

Dont use loud noise attacks in a icy mountain or you will have to try to escape oncoming avalanche.

Thin ice that can break if you dont walk on it, you will die if you break the ice and fall in, you will slowly lose hp while drowning!!

Quick sand.

Sand storms.

Tornadoes.

Lava from a volcano.

Hanging electrical cords that can zap you.

Whirlpools.

Large waves from the beach that can knock you over in the lobby.

SOMETHING!!!!!


I love your ideas http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
Shame it will probably never happen.
I agree on more "in the moment" action! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[DraginHikari]

PSO only appeared to be harder, the real problem with PSO was the control scheme and basic mechincs:

1: You got too close to an enemy you would slow down making manual evasion extremely difficult.

2: For some reason most of the time boxes were prioritized over killer monsters

3: The animations were rather stiff cause opening to become more obivious.

4: Attack Techinques were completely useless in higher areas due to unbalance elemental defenses.

5: Buffs and Debuffs were far more necessary due to the lower intial stats.

Don't misunderstand, I loved PSO, but the problem is it was far from perfect as is PSU.

The mother brain mission released today was quite a challenge at this point mostly due to the fact the enemies could clobber you easily and run you down. White Beast wasn't hard in sense of it but unless you had a Sleep/Resist soloing the area was a damn nightmare since everything seems to put you to sleep.

[dc534]

has anyone been playing the hive missions. The missions we are playing now because of the reasons you have mentioned but sega got lazy and did not do anything to help us against those creatures. Spears work well and perhaps slicers but then you come up to those Junsung's and those delnazens and it all over for you. If you want a challenge go back to bathing in megid and watching your scape dolls vanish.

PS The money on these missions suck it takes literally a good group at minimum 35 minutes to run a Hive mission and well the drops are rare but good luck getting one. Like I said if you want a challenge go do Hive missions if you want to have fun play the new missions and maybe mix in Plains Overlord or the hot spots. Either way this game is great and the difficulty is there just most do not choose or have the means to play these missions.

[physic]

ehh, hp isnt that big a deal, sure FF has a ton of it, but FF has no evasion and has to be right next to monsters all the time. believe me when i say FF pays for all its dmg in dmg taken, with aranger you can run around virtually untouched.

Pso was easy as pie, really play it, you guys complain about monster hp and ai, seriously as a level 1 dude i could kill most mobs in 4 hits? all you had to do was wait for the swing then hit the side for most mobs. Bosses offered more strategy, kinda, i mean de rol was samish level of strat, dragon is about same, maybe has a few more moves now. so its only really volt and DF that have more.

pso was pretty easy on a mob to mob basis, and in free mode. bbbbbuuut it wasnt that easy...... ON CHALLENGE! its really the oly way in which a game like psu can be challenging, because the challenge comes from what level you are, and what you have avilable, also how levels are designed. Challenge is the only place where your level is controlled, where you cant just buy 100 charges and go back to the lobby infinitely for mates, and you need some luck to have any hax equipment at all. Its also the only place where they will design levels with the complexity and requiring a high level of teamwork, because other levels are made to be ok for 3 or so random players who have never met, and may have never played the level.

[Zorafim]

On 2007-12-22 01:56, dc534 wrote:
has anyone been playing the hive missions.


As I've said before, that's not difficulty. That's just frustrating.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zorafim on 2007-12-22 03:16 ]</font>

[physic]

whats not difficulty, just frustrating?

[Zorafim]

You posted before I could reply to, um... That one poster with a random assortment of letters and numbers for a name. Now I'm going to have to edit my post to make it make sense.

[F-Gattaca]

On 2007-12-21 20:20, Broodstar1337 wrote:
As for now, Electronic Brain is a good start. Orcdillians and SEED-Arclite are pretty much constantly on the prowl and wailing on you. It's a good change of pace to see enemies actually able to fight back, but it's still merely a start.


You never fought the rifle-wielding SEED Guardians in Military Subway, have you?

I don't know why the AMF Heavy Infantry aren't as deadly as they are. You'd think they'd be the tougher opponents.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I have no problem with any of the toasters CASTs in those Parum train missions or whatever. Spinning Strike with an Acrofighter pretty much owns those guys, and my high EVP means that they'll have trouble one-shotting me with their Killer Shot.

[Gen2000]

Besides just slapping more levels on enemies they could get more creative with mob spawns too. Pre-Nerf Desert Terror and Desert Goliath were awesome for that, those were the type of missions that you felt you need a party for even when you hit the level cap if you wanted to complete the mission in any decent time.