Yohmei worthless???

[HaydenX]

Since the adding of pp restoration with basic attacks and the addition of just attacks, are non-ranged Yohmei Weapons worthless. Now that tenora makes claws (with the 9* being better than Daiga in many respects), why would one use the Yohmei one? The only exception I can see to this is (possibly) the Double Saber (and only with a Fighgunner who likes to spin him/herself dizzy).

What are your thoughts?

[MetalIdol876]

I have a full compliment of Yohmei 8* Futsnata(the spear) of every element with 38% or more. Personally I like the look of the Yohmei Spear to the Tenora one. So what If it has a hundred or so less ACC? I'm a Beast Fortefighter. I'm still gonna do the most damage even with Yohmei.

Claws? Yeah, I ain't touching those atrocious things Tenora Makes. Yohmei only please. I do like their knuckles though. Those are sweet. And their Swords. The rest can go to hell.

[Krisan]

Stat-wise, I can't think of too many reasons to use most of Yohmei's weaponry now.. guns included. (despite how huge a pool their rifles have later on) PP regeneration is just too crazy for most striking based weapons now, so the added pool really doesn't makeup for the lowered attack or accuracy.. I mean, I can still see a few situational uses their weapons have, but they don't have anything that really pulls me into them anymore..

Now, graphically though.. Yohmei makes some pretty kickass looking weapons.. And to most people, myself included, that is enough.

[Telina]

well, it offers some variety and more customization to the pallets. Great example. the 10* dedda, only comes in dark, but an Okanoh can be any element. Like the S rank twin and single claws, when and if another company makes them. Its still a matter of preference, if you like to use nothing but PA's then attack to refill the PP and repeat or mix in attacks with PA's.

[beatrixkiddo]

Yohmei Spears have use because they have a longer reach. Trust me, the graphical difference in length actually affects the range.

Similarly, the Yohmei Sabers do as well, but it's not nearly as significant nor useful as the Spears.

Yohmei Daggers have less range than the new GRM ones.

Yohmei Claws have a tiny bit more range than the new Tenora ones. Although I'm hardly a fan of the Yohmei Claw design, I'm even less of a fan of the Tenora one. :/

[Telina]

And as a further note, often times Yohmei have better accuracy too, its not just the PP they specialize in...

[HaydenX]

On 2007-12-25 18:05, Krisan wrote:
Stat-wise, I can't think of too many reasons to use most of Yohmei's weaponry now.. guns included. (despite how huge a pool their rifles have later on) PP regeneration is just too crazy for most striking based weapons now, so the added pool really doesn't makeup for the lowered attack or accuracy.. I mean, I can still see a few situational uses their weapons have, but they don't have anything that really pulls me into them anymore..

Now, graphically though.. Yohmei makes some pretty kickass looking weapons.. And to most people, myself included, that is enough.



Kiujibahoh (9* rifle) is the coolest-looking ranged weapon I've ever seen. It is also the best KS weapon ever. The Accuracy is also higher than phantom. Really, other than Phantomline combo, I can't see any reason to use the Phantom anymore. Most people use rifles for SE, accuracy, and KS anyway.

BTW, I'm more about DPS than looks (except for clothes, as I'm wearing the AMF army set which set me back 100k or so). I like BIG NUMBARZ or LOTSA NUMBARZ (or both, which is why I like Chikki).

[MetalIdol876]

Some of us aren't power gamers and don't go for the best weapon/armor/whatever. We get what we want, and keep what looks good. Yohmei spears look a helluva lot better than Tenora. Yohmei Axes look better than GRM Axes. Save for Double Agito, their Double Sabers look better than GRM also.

[AnamanaAU]

What is SE and KS?

[Pentence]

Well personaly i prefer the range of the yohmei weapons. Many of them are longer with higher accuracy. As a beast male i have plenty of power so i dont need a incredibly powerfull reactor to make up for any lacking in that department. However i lack accuracy thusly yohmei weapons are nice with their (normaly)extra reach and higher acc also i love my PAs so the pp boost is nice. Freaking-a the twin sabers of yohmeis are at least 20% longer than the grm ones.

[Turambar]

If Yohmei made rifles that looked decent, I'd use them. Since they can't seem to do that...you get the idea.

[D1ABOLIK]

They are stylish. Looks > stats always.

________
Gm foods (http://gmfoods.info/)

[MetalIdol876]

On 2007-12-25 18:20, JubeiSaotome wrote:
What is SE and KS?


Status Effect and Killer Shot

[HaydenX]

On 2007-12-25 18:23, Turambar wrote:
If Yohmei made rifles that looked decent, I'd use them. Since they can't seem to do that...you get the idea.



WTF are you talkin 'bout? They look awesome and play awesome.

[Retehi]

On 2007-12-25 18:27, HaydenX wrote:

On 2007-12-25 18:23, Turambar wrote:
If Yohmei made rifles that looked decent, I'd use them. Since they can't seem to do that...you get the idea.



WTF are you talkin 'bout? They look awesome and play awesome.



lolno

[Alamar]

I have a few of these yohmei weapons. And I like them myself.

[Krisan]

On 2007-12-25 18:13, Telina wrote:
And as a further note, often times Yohmei have better accuracy too, its not just the PP they specialize in...

That's true for a lot of their stuff, but not necessarily a rule with their striking weaponry. Though yea, your previous post pretty much hit the nail on the head, it boils down to variety and preference.


On 2007-12-25 18:14, HaydenX wrote:
Kiujibahoh (9* rifle) is the coolest-looking ranged weapon I've ever seen. It is also the best KS weapon ever. The Accuracy is also higher than phantom. Really, other than Phantomline combo, I can't see any reason to use the Phantom anymore. Most people use rifles for SE, accuracy, and KS anyway.

BTW, I'm more about DPS than looks (except for clothes, as I'm wearing the AMF army set which set me back 100k or so). I like BIG NUMBARZ or LOTSA NUMBARZ (or both, which is why I like Chikki).

I honestly can't stand how the Yohmei rifles look, so I wouldn't know. I can see the uses of them all the same though. But I meant to speak generally in terms of their ranged weaponry anyway.

[Gen2000]

The only Yohemi gun that is somewhat ok on the eyes to me is the Crossbow. Also when I compared an Aikasoki vs. a Cubo Mamba, the damage difference was not that big and when playing in low man parties or solo'ing that larger PP pool is really nice. The Rifles are all horrible on the eyes but they have good ATA and PP compared to GRMs and that's all that really matters when using Killer Shot. The Srank Yohemi Rifle is probably the ugliest creation one could hold in their hands but it's an incredible Killer Shot gun.

Melee wise...I dunno. Some weapons you wouldn't noticed the power drop anyways like with the Axe. I mean really it's an Axe, it's strong regardless unless you're using something on Aksuc's level of...suck. If for whatever reason you use Hard/Power Charge on your melee the Yohemi weapons with a very high grind could absorb the PA abuse better and the lowered ATP power wouldn't be as noticeable.

[RegulusHikari]

I prefer shooting things with guns, not tree branches. The only Yohmei weapon type out there I prefer using are daggers and... daggers. Did I mention daggers? The spear isn't too bad, if I didn't already have 4 Mugunruks and a Mugktengek.


Kiujibahoh (9* rifle) is the coolest-looking ranged weapon I've ever seen.

You must not have seen many ranged weapons.


It is also the best KS weapon ever.

See: Mizurakihoh (http://www.pso-world.com/items/psu/1/2163/mizurakihoh/)


The Accuracy is also higher than phantom.

If you were a GT or a Beast FG, this might actually be of importance.


Most people use rifles for SE, accuracy, and KS anyway.

Can't argue there.

[Angelo]

Yohmei weapons will always benefit the weeaboos.

Isn't that enough?

On a serious note though, the accuracy boost can be a nice perk for us beasts.

[Weeaboolits]

Look at the basic axes, and tell me the Yohmei one isn't a thousand times more badass looking than the tenora, not to mention that they have lower requirements, this is important to newman fighters such as myself. As for sabers, Yohmei and Tenora look about the same, I prefer GRM myself, and have always prefered the look of GRM daggers, the new ones are pretty nice with those massive blades, make my Renga Chujin-shou look sweet. Never been a fan of spears, but the Yohmei A-ranks almost make me want to use them.

As far as fire arms, Yohmei makes some sexy weaponry, though Tenora's are nice too, most of GRM's basic stuff looks pretty uninspired, though.

[AnamanaAU]

GRM looks futuristic, which is consistent with what race runs Parum.

[Zorafim]

Huh, I was theorizing the opposite not too long ago. With the additions of the heavy atp boost, the difference between Yohmei and Tenora atp isn't as noticeable as it used to be. When a fortefighter has almost as much atp as an axe, the difference between Yohmei axes and Tenora axes isn't very big. Twin daggers even less so.
PP, however, is a stat that leveling up cannot affect. The difference between a Yohmei weapon's PP and a Tenora weapon's PP is rather noticeable. That extra time not spent recharging will equate to more time spent attacking, which will equate to higher damage per second.

So yeah, Yohmei FTW.


Something else to note is that, not all weapons recharge well. Spears, for instance, only recover around 8 PP per JA'd combo, as opposed to twin claw's 37 (numbers are educated estimates). From this, it's obvious that it'd be better to get a yohmei spear, since it'll last much longer and the damage shouldn't be too much of an issue (seriously, do you really need to maximize Majarra's damage?). I want to say that it should also be obvious that you should get Tenora twin claws, but I'm not sure the added atp is very useful on twin weapons anyway. If it is, then you could easily switch to Tenora claws and not miss much.


It could also depend on the class. Fortefighters, especially if beasts, have a huge pool of ATP, so they can do with not using the highest ATP weapons. The low amount of PP that they'll use compared to other classes, as well as the higher recharge rate, will mean that they can use weapons for a long time. These bonuses stack with Yohmei's PP boosts, meaning they'll probably be using a Yohmei weapon for a very long time.
However, an acrotecher has relatively low atp, and any boosts they get via weapons are fairly noticeable. A whip may do very little damage to a high defensive enemy, while a dagger may do many times more points of damage per hit simply because it can bypass defense better. Because of this, it's probably better for acrotechers to use Tenora weapons, for the much needed atp. One would think that they would miss the PP, and indeed they would, but you have to remember that acrotecher is a hybrid job that uses one handed weapons. While one weapon recharges, they can use techs or fans to deal with damage. There's also the point that a fight may go by much quicker, and more damage would be done by recharging Tenora weapon via JAs instead of Yohmeis.


Fairly situational, but I think Yohmei is overall better, especially for fortefighters. Yes, you can recharge both Yohmeis and Tenoras at the same rate, but Yohmei weapons recharge by themselves faster than Tenoras, and can be used longer before needing to manually recharge them. If your ATP is low, examples being at a low levels or being a teching class, Tenora's atp may prove to be helpful. But, considering S rank weapons can be equipped at lv30 by a teching class (true story), the extra 80 levels of atp gain will probably overpower any atp boost that Tenora gives you so much that the extra PP will be more useful.
Of course, the difference between the two could ultimately come down to playstyle, and the difference may not be great enough to warrant using a weapon whos visuals you dislike over a weapon whos visuals you do like. Just go with the pretty one.

[Gunslinger-08]

On 2007-12-25 18:23, D1ABOLIK wrote:
They are stylish. Looks > stats always.



amen.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I'd really like to see Yohmei S rank Sabers, but yeah, when Yohmei A rank twin sabers came out, I sold all of my GRMS and replaced them with Yohmeis.

[Weeaboolits]

In all honesty I favor aesthetics unless the numbers become a glaring issue (for example, I stopped using a Daga Cresa because it just didn't have enough pp).

[AnamanaAU]

On 2007-12-25 19:54, Ronin_Cooper wrote:
In all honesty I favor aesthetics unless the numbers become a glaring issue (for example, I stopped using a Daga Cresa because it just didn't have enough pp).


I'm a functionality over form man. I rather balance to pretty looks and poor stats. Ockam's razor at work.

[Weeaboolits]

Well, my main is a newman fortefighter, I think you can guess how much I value the stats. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Pandorasbox]

My two cents:
I'm of the same camp/opinion of that it's kinda situational. As having a beast FF I appreciate the extra accuracy. Even the extra length is nice too. But I'd imangine if you're more of a lower ATP in class or race you might want to maximize more ATP heavy weaponry. Maximizing what you want in a weapon makes Yohmei a desirable choice for all weps including melee.

[HaydenX]

On 2007-12-25 19:07, RegulusHikari wrote:
I prefer shooting things with guns, not tree branches. The only Yohmei weapon type out there I prefer using are daggers and... daggers. Did I mention daggers? The spear isn't too bad, if I didn't already have 4 Mugunruks and a Mugktengek.


Kiujibahoh (9* rifle) is the coolest-looking ranged weapon I've ever seen.

You must not have seen many ranged weapons.


It is also the best KS weapon ever.

See: Mizurakihoh (http://www.pso-world.com/items/psu/1/2163/mizurakihoh/)


The Accuracy is also higher than phantom.

If you were a GT or a Beast FG, this might actually be of importance.


Most people use rifles for SE, accuracy, and KS anyway.

Can't argue there.



Point one...I have seen every ranged weapon short of muzzlefever, storm, and rattlesnake.

Point two...I'm way too poor for this

Point three...There is never a point at which one will never miss (FT stay outta this). If you miss one in twenty shots, and it drops to one in thirty thanks to the accuracy boost, you have improved both your proc rate and damage by 2.5% (which is statistically significant IMO)

Point four...Nothing to add.

[amtalx]

IMO, Yohmei weapons are utter garbage unless you are using KS. The extra PP just makes up for the fact that it takes you more shots to kill something with a weapon that has lower ATP.

[Randomness]

I wonder how many of the people dissing Yohmei in here have thought of how a Yohmei mechgun would be.

[Hrith]

On 2007-12-25 18:13, beatrixkiddo wrote:
Yohmei Spears have use because they have a longer reach. Trust me, the graphical difference in length actually affects the range.

Similarly, the Yohmei Sabers do as well, but it's not nearly as significant nor useful as the Spears.

Yohmei Daggers have less range than the new GRM ones.

Yohmei Claws have a tiny bit more range than the new Tenora ones. Although I'm hardly a fan of the Yohmei Claw design, I'm even less of a fan of the Tenora one. :/Since there is no difference between Sweet Death and Crea doubles, I think you're just imagining things.

Never noticed a difference between GRM and Yohmei twin/single sabers, either, and I use all of those a lot.


On 2007-12-26 06:19, amtalx wrote:
IMO, Yohmei weapons are utter garbage unless you are using KS. The extra PP just makes up for the fact that it takes you more shots to kill something with a weapon that has lower ATP.Not really.
The difference in damage between Yohmei and Tenora crossbows is 1%. Yohmei have +300 PP.
The difference in damage between Yohmei and GRM cards is 1%. Yohmei have +80 PP.
The difference in damage between GRM and Tenora grenades is 3%. GRM have +400 PP.


The difference in damage between Yohmei and GRM single daggers is 1%. Yohmei have +20 PP.
The difference in damage between Yohmei and GRM twin daggers is 1%. Yohmei have +30 PP.
The difference in damage between Yohmei and GRM double sabers is 1%. Yohmei have +30 PP.
The difference in damage between Yohmei and Tenora single claws is 2%. Yohmei have +70 PP.
The difference in damage between Yohmei and Tenora twin claws is 3%. Yohmei have +90 PP.
The difference in damage between Yohmei and Tenora spears is 7%. Yohmei have +170 PP.
The difference in damage between Yohmei and Tenora axes is 8%. Yohmei have +120 PP.
The difference in damage between Yohmei and GRM twin sabers is 8%. Yohmei have +90 PP.

The difference in damage is never worth it because it will take the same number of hits to kill something.

The difference in PP is always higher.
It's not really significant except for...
-Yohmei axes: all three PAs have a high PP cost, especially as Protranser.
-Yohmei twin sabers: same, PAs are expensive.
-Yohmei crossbows: the difference in damage is only noticeable if you use Cubo Dunga + Rabol Dunga 100% of the time, and even then, it would not kill faster enough to match +300 PP
-GRM grenades: there is no practical difference between dealing 1000 damage and 1030 damage, while 400 PP is a huge difference on a weapon type with a high PP cost.


Since most PAs tend to lean towards higher damage for a much higher PP cost, ATP will only mean less and less than PP.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-12-26 08:36 ]</font>

[Neith]

Mizurakihoh looks cooler than most other Rifles in the game. Only one I think looks better than it is the Rattlesnake. Even when compared to Blackbull, and Killer Elite, I prefer the look of the Mizurakihoh. It looks really ornate and makes the Tanegashima noise from PSO, so awesome http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

I still think Yohmei melee weapons are very useful. Even with PP regen, some weapons aren't very good if you rely on it. See Spears. Have you actually seen (even using JA) how much PP a Spear regens? Not much at all. This is when the 500+PP of high-end Yohmei Spears becomes very useful. As mentioned, they also have slightly increased range over Tenoras too, since weapon size apparently affects their effective range.

And as for Twin Claws...it's all about the looks. Yohmeis are a hell of a lot better looking than the Tenoras. Becomes even more apparent when you get to S-Rank Claws- Fuka-Misaki and Yamata are beautiful weapons, and the unreleased Shide-Misaki is one of the best looking weapons in the entire game. >_>

[amtalx]

I was just messing around when I said that but I'll still take Tenora, thanks. When my DPS is OVER 9000!!! I'll take my handful of percents.

Using a Yohmei Xbow is silly. Lower ATA and ATP? Pass. ATP gap widens even more with Shotgun/Xbow type weapons. I'd much rather throw another Xbow in my inventory, or god forbid, use a Charge.

Maybe I'm just weird because I would rather carry an armory with me that sacrifice damage and carry weapons that look like they came from the Pottery Barn.

[Bliven]

I carry both cubo mamba and aikasoki with me. I BARELY notice any sort of difference, I think it's like 10 damage per shot at most. Imo, the aikasoki is the best looking xbow also. Amtal, you are using xbow on a fortegunner it seems? Well, I use xbow on a guntecher. Even with a bullet save, with a lvl 31+ bow shot, a cubo mamba doesn't even last half a block, which can get really agitating.

[Hrith]

Actually, Aikasoki does more damage than Cubo Mamba, because Tenora crossbows have a wider variance.

Only Cubo Dunga + Rabol Dunga can outdamage Aikasoki (on Fortegunner or Fighgunner).

I fail to see how the ATP gap can widen for weapons that depend for 90% on character ATP >_>
PP is the only stat that matters on shotguns.

It's a good point that high base damage could make even 5% a noticeable difference, but if you think there is any gameplay difference between dealing 3000 and 3150 damage (5% damage applied to Lv40 shotguns), you're wrong =/



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2007-12-26 09:59 ]</font>

[amtalx]

The Aikasoki doesn't do more damage, it's just easier to acheive peak damage. The day that I start to throw away damage because "it doesn't make a difference" is the day I truly begin to suck.

[HaydenX]

On 2007-12-26 10:12, amtalx wrote:
The Aikasoki doesn't do more damage, it's just easier to acheive peak damage. The day that I start to throw away damage because "it doesn't make a difference" is the day I truly begin to suck.



Assuming 3000 per hit, vs 3150 per hit, the odds of that 150 making a difference vs the enemies you are fighting is about 1/20. About 5% of the time, it might make a difference. I'd take the PP over that any day for guns (not physical). Another thing that needs to be mentioned is...SE. The more shots you have, the more likely you are to land SE (go figure http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif). If you get more shots with Yohmei, you get more SE (Also, Yohmei tend to have higher accuracy though not always).

[HaydenX]

On 2007-12-26 07:56, Randomness wrote:
I wonder how many of the people dissing Yohmei in here have thought of how a Yohmei mechgun would be.



I would kill for a Yohmei mechgun. Imagine a 9* mechgun being better than Beam Vulcanic.

[amtalx]

I see your point that 150 damage is not a deal breaker. That's true. I look at things a different way though. If we were to all ignore a few percent here, and a few percent there, it really starts to add up. Does my SPS make minutes slide of mission times? Not really. Is leaving a bullet at 38 going to make killing enemies excruciating as compared to 40? Absolutely not. However, most would argue that not leveling up a bullet when you can, or leaving my SPS in the bank would be silly. I believe the same of using Yohmei weapons (in most situations.)

PP is for all practical purposes an infinitely renewable resource. ATP, however, is not. No matter how many Yohmei weapons you carry, you will never regain the ground you lost in ATP. Carrying multiple Tenora weapons will. If I have the budget to afford 5 of weapon X in Tenora or Yohmei, why would I buy Yohmei? Am I really going to exhaust 5 weapons? Unlikely, and if I do, Photon Charges are practically free given the amount of meseta enemies drop now.

[HaydenX]

On 2007-12-26 10:42, amtalx wrote:
I see your point that 150 damage is not a deal breaker. That's true. I look at things a different way though. If we were to all ignore a few percent here, and a few percent there, it really starts to add up. Does my SPS make minutes slide of mission times? Not really. Is leaving a bullet at 38 going to make killing enemies excruciating as compared to 40? Absolutely not. However, most would argue that not leveling up a bullet when you can, or leaving my SPS in the bank would be silly. I believe the same of using Yohmei weapons (in most situations.)

PP is for all practical purposes an infinitely renewable resource. ATP, however, is not. No matter how many Yohmei weapons you carry, you will never regain the ground you lost in ATP. Carrying multiple Tenora weapons will. If I have the budget to afford 5 of weapon X in Tenora or Yohmei, why would I buy Yohmei? Am I really going to exhaust 5 weapons? Unlikely, and if I do, Photon Charges are practically free given the amount of meseta enemies drop now.



What about having a full inventory and missing out on a rare because of your having 50 weapons...?

[amtalx]

I carry a rather sizable arsenal and I've never approached 50 weapons. Let's be realistic here. Yohmei weapons will only save you a handful of weapons switches at best. The 300 PP gain from a Yohmei weapon does not mean you will have to carry 9 Tenoras while only having to carry 2 Yohmeis. Yohmei Xbows have roughly 30% more PP, so for every 3 Yohmeis, you would have to carry 4 Tenoras for equivalent PP. Cumulatively you would have 3108 PP for 4x Tenora and 3060 PP for 3x Yohmei. That is far from 50 weapons.

[pikachief]

the yohemi 10* axe is better than an ank dedda! more accuracy and MUCH more PP and the atp difference int that bad considering your most likely gonbna be using it on a beast FF

[Hrith]

You're completely mission the point, amtalx, you're not losing damage using Yohmei weapons compared to the PP you gain.

Aikasoki does deal more damage on average, which is what matters.
The only advantage of Tenora crossbows is ATA (or S grade weapons, if you're Guntecher).

You would have a point if the ATP difference in the examples I cited mattered, but it does not.

There are cases where ATP difference will matter (single sabers, rifles are good examples), but dealing 5 more damage per bullet or 50 more damage per skill will never make any difference.

GRM cards and Tenora crossbows are statistically worse than their Yohmei counterparts if you take into account all stats.

It takes a Gur Asted to significantly outdamage an Azul Fire +10.

etc.

[amtalx]

The problem is the PP gain amounts to nothing unless you are using a PAs with an extraordinarily high cost, like KS. Outside of that, Yohmei should stay in the shed. I guess I just value the damage that you are throwing away more than you do.

[Zael]

I'm with Kef on this one. The damage diffrence is hardly significant compared to the PP difference. Personally, I synthed most of my weapons Yohmei, including rifles, twin handguns, spears, and sabers.

[Pengfishh]

GRM for liiiiiife!

[Hrith]

On 2007-12-26 20:30, amtalx wrote:
The problem is the PP gain amounts to nothing unless you are using a PAs with an extraordinarily high cost, like KS. Outside of that, Yohmei should stay in the shed. I guess I just value the damage that you are throwing away more than you do.If you're the kind of person who thinks 1% damage matters more than other stats, you're missing over half the game =/

I just use weapons I think look cool, anyway, which is GRM, most of the time.

If you're thinking guns, I empty 3-4 Yohmei crossbows (1200 PP) soloing some missions, and I easily empty my Shigga Destac (1500 PP) twice.
Using charges on crossbows is so annoying, too ._.
Yohmei rifles for KS, obviously.

As for melee, some weapon types only have skills with high PP cost (spears, twin sabers, axes, single claws, etc...), and the PP cost of the most recent skills is only getting higher and higher, so I'll take 20% PP over 5% damage =/

[RegulusHikari]

On 2007-12-27 07:12, Hrith wrote:
so I'll take 20% PP over 5% damage =/



I think what amtalx is trying to say is since PP is easily remedied with a store bought restorative, he'd rather get the extra ATP instead of saving himself a few charges. You can't do this with ATP. Even if you pop an Atagaride, your ATP can keep increasing. It may only be 1%, but that's why we level PAs, those 1 and 2%s add up.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-27 07:25, RegulusHikari wrote:

On 2007-12-27 07:12, Hrith wrote:
so I'll take 20% PP over 5% damage =/



I think what amtalx is trying to say is since PP is easily remedied with a store bought restorative, he'd rather get the extra ATP instead of saving himself a few charges. You can't do this with ATP. Even if you pop an Atagaride, your ATP can keep increasing. It may only be 1%, but that's why we level PAs, those 1 and 2%s add up.



THANK YOU!! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif


@Hrith:

I'm not trying to sacrifice everything for the sake of BIGNUMBARZ. I'm just weighing the costs and benefits.

For something like ATP vs. PP, it's usually pretty simple. The advantage of ATP is that you are more "combat effective". The advantage of PP is that it saves you a few dollars in Photon Charges, and requires less weapon switching. But let's be honest. Money is easy to come by (particularly for players of our level) and less weapon switching is just a comfort. For me, I would rather forgo the pedestrian gains of comfort for a more tangible benefit. To get more advanced, PA choice also comes into play. If you are using a PA where you will end up draining so many weapons that 10 charges is no longer sufficient, or carrying a high number of low PP weapons is crippling your inventory, a re-evaluation is certainly necessary. However, for everyday elemental PA usage, I will almost always side with ATP over PP.


Granted, not every comparison will be binary, but you see my point. Things get more complicated when you throw in PAs with side effects like knockback. If you are using it for the knockback, ATP should probably take a backseat to ATA. Throwing a zero and getting drilled in the face because of it is no good. Thats all on a case by case basis though.

As far as melee weapons go...I'll let you handle that. I've done the fighter thing a few times, but never liked it much. I won't pretend I know what I'm talking about.

[SolomonGrundy]

Hrith is mostly right.

pp> ATP for ranged weapons. I still use tenora corssbows, because. I have a well ground one, and do not have a well ground Yoh crossbow.

For melee weapons, it's really all over the place. Looks play a part too, but even ignoring looks, some weapons are just clearly better than others.

I know everyone is all giddy about GRM twin daggers, but the added ATP is not significant, where are the PP (twin daggers tend to get spammed a lot), IS significant. ATA used to be more significant, but twin dagger PA now have improved accuracy, so...yeah...

PP regen, for wat it's worth, varies by maker as well. Tenora weapons tend to regent less PP, and recover less PP when using normal attacks.

[Hrith]

RegulusHikari and amtalx, learn to read before replying to me.

When you can prove to me that the damage gain of some guns I mentioned has any impact on gameplay, you'll have a point.

What I said since my first post in this topic is that I am not losing anything, and gaining PP, it's a 100% win situation.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-27 11:14, Hrith wrote:
I am not losing anything



On 2007-12-27 07:12, Hrith wrote:
I'll take 20% PP over 5% damage =/



5%>0% last time I checked.

[Hrith]

lrn2read http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Shadow_Wing]

It's all personal preference, ATP AND PP have little impact in the end and choose whichever you like more. Or do what I do, only use weapons that look good.

[Miren]

On 2007-12-27 14:42, Shadow_Wing wrote:
It's all personal preference, ATP AND PP have little impact in the end and choose whichever you like more. Or do what I do, only use weapons that look good.



Agree.
I like Yohmei's dagger, claw , rifle look cool. But I cannot stand the design of the handgun. Even they have good PP and it mostly use it on flyers, I still perfer the look of others.

[Sychosis]

On 2007-12-27 11:14, Hrith wrote:
RegulusHikari and amtalx, learn to read before replying to me.

When you can prove to me that the damage gain of some guns I mentioned has any impact on gameplay, you'll have a point.

What I said since my first post in this topic is that I am not losing anything, and gaining PP, it's a 100% win situation.



Are you honestly implying that it is absolutely, positively impossible for you to ever come across a situation where you deal 4999 damage to a monster with 5000 HP when using Yohmei weapons?

[amtalx]

Good point. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I think this has run its course though, hehe.

[Soukosa]

Why would someone use Youmei? For looks. That's all the game's really about, making cute characters and giving them cute weapons. The overall difference between brands, stat wise, is very minor unless you're really into this game. In which case, may be its time to go out and get some fresh air.

[Aviendha]

On 2007-12-27 22:07, Soukosa wrote:
Why would someone use Youmei? For looks. That's all the game's really about, making cute characters and giving them cute weapons. The overall difference between brands, stat wise, is very minor unless you're really into this game. In which case, may be its time to go out and get some fresh air.


The only "cute" weapons in the game are Rappy daggers and Ank Bico. And all loli characters need to die in a fire.

[Hrith]

On 2007-12-27 16:44, Sychosis wrote:
Are you honestly implying that it is absolutely, positively impossible for you to ever come across a situation where you deal 4999 damage to a monster with 5000 HP when using Yohmei weapons?You're not even a good troll, or I would have humoured you.

Keep training.

[Sychosis]

On 2007-12-28 08:00, Hrith wrote:

On 2007-12-27 16:44, Sychosis wrote:
Are you honestly implying that it is absolutely, positively impossible for you to ever come across a situation where you deal 4999 damage to a monster with 5000 HP when using Yohmei weapons?You're not even a good troll, or I would have humoured you.

Keep training.



Anything to dodge the question, eh sport?

[RegulusHikari]

On 2007-12-28 13:04, Sychosis wrote:

On 2007-12-28 08:00, Hrith wrote:

On 2007-12-27 16:44, Sychosis wrote:
Are you honestly implying that it is absolutely, positively impossible for you to ever come across a situation where you deal 4999 damage to a monster with 5000 HP when using Yohmei weapons?You're not even a good troll, or I would have humoured you.

Keep training.



Anything to dodge the question, eh sport?



Yeah, this went from a discussion to "lolimritekthx".

[RegulusHikari]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RegulusHikari on 2007-12-28 13:20 ]</font>

[amtalx]

Yohmei x4:

PP: 1020 x 4 = 4080

At 12PP (fG 31+) per shot you will get 340 shots (4080/12).

Total damage in ATP: 340 * 257 * 3 = 262,140



Tenora x5

PP 777 x 5 = 3885

At 12PP per shot, you will get roughly 323.75 shots (3885/12)

Total damage in ATP: 323.75 * 297 * 3 = 288,461.25



Total ATP disparity: 288461.25 - 262140 = 26,321.25
Differential: 288461.25 / 262,140 = 1.1004% (10.04%)

This is all done with the assumption that the player is too lazy to fill that last 195 PP gap with a charge. Calculation with Yohmei firing more shots gives it a serious advantage. Should the player choose to wipe the drool from their mouth and recharge, the differential increases to over 15%. More than worth forking over the 500m. Obviously, elemental alignment was not included, and done with raw weapon output only.

The ATA disparity is only -25 for the Aikasoki as compared to the Cubo Mamba. Spread over time, it seems like it would be only a minor advantage at best. Even if we had accurate accuracy formulas, it probably wouldn't be worth calculating. Factoring in the increased regeneration rate for Yohmei would require me to figure out how much PP is regenerated over the time spent expending the allotted amounts...and I really don't care that much. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Feel free to take a crack at it though. I've heard 80 shots per minute.

[DonRoyale]

Low ATP + High PP = Easy levelling.

Yohmei = useful. :>

[Genoa]

Yohmei = Protoss weaponry... and everyone wants to be a Zealot ;o
Therefore, there will always be Yohmei users

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Soukosa's kind of right, I'm more interested in looks for this game. I'm planning on making an all Yohmei pallete of weapons for my Human Acrofighter since Yohmeis usually look Oriental looking, which would give him the samurai image I want for him.

[Dragwind]

Unfortunatley I somewhat feel the same. I prefer Tenora for melee weaponry since I can just refill with a photon charge/ja. However, for certain bullet pa's I prefer yohmei guns for the PP.

[Hrith]

On 2007-12-28 19:03, amtalx wrote:
(...)Your calculation is not accurate in the least, you're not taking into account ATP variance.

The average damage of Aikasoki is superior to Cubo Mamba's.


As for your last remark, Yohmei crossbows regenerate the least PP of all brands (Kubara > Tenora > Yohmei).

[amtalx]

Lol, variance wont account for anywhere near that amount of damage.

[Hrith]

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/aikasoki1.png

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/aikasoki_damage1.png



http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/cubo_dunga1.png

http://keffypoo.free.fr/psu/network/cubo_dunga_damage1.png

[SolomonGrundy]

what do thes epic show - that a higher ATP weapon inflicted lower damage? Also, were you using a rabol dunga?

[RegulusHikari]

Wow, you're right. I HAVE been missing over half the game. I could be doing 20 more damage! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Meanwhile, I'm using equipment that (IMO) looks better or fits my character better aesthetically. And besides, since its my $10, that's all that matters.

[Shadow_Wing]

Well, I like tenora xbow looks more than Yohmei's but anyways certain problems with your test which are:

1) Comparing a 9* with an 8* weapon
2) Uneven grind comparison, best to use a non-grind comparison, or +10 comparison due to the nature of how different each weapon grinds and company grind rates.
3) Unlikely your wearing the proper armor to make use of the 8* Tenora crossbow
4) Additionally, it shows little to no damage variance, which can be about 20 or more damage, if you wish to make a comparison don't force yourself to show me one at lowest and the other at highest. Cause I assure you, the math will be wrong.

In your test the damage variance makes it a non-issue on which to use, sure you can get the more PP but who gives a fuck about stats.

When making a debunk, at least do it right -_-;



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-29 13:09 ]</font>

[HaydenX]

I agree with that sentiment. Don't BS us with false numbers.


On a different note though, nobody seems to factor in SE, no matter how many times it is mentioned. The more shots you get, the more SE you can inflict (using the right SE, you can be talking serious damage). Does anybody have the math involved for infliction of SE vs. common enemies?

[amtalx]

The only thing that would really make you inflict SE more often is a higher rate of fire. Give God/Battle back! As far as infliction rates, never bothered to research it much. Obviously, I have my preferences as far as what lands with less shots (Fire and Shock) but outside of that, ask Pillan. He seems to know the most about SE.


EDIT: ATA is also important, as throwing a 0 will get you nowhere.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: amtalx on 2007-12-29 16:35 ]</font>

[Hrith]

On 2007-12-29 13:02, Shadow_Wing wrote:
(...)The stupidity of some is really amazing >_>

I proved that a weapon with less ATP deals more damage, because of variance.

If you don't understand what's being discussed, don't reply, it's only making it harder on yourself.

[Shadow_Wing]

Additionally, it shows little to no damage variance, which can be about 20 or more damage, if you wish to make a comparison don't force yourself to show me one at lowest and the other at highest. Cause I assure you, the math will be wrong.

ANNNNNND

In your test the damage variance makes it a non-issue on which to use, sure you can get the more PP but who gives a fuck about stats.

Nah I think you require more reading comprehension my little dumb dumb~

Just because you tried to rig a test to show it doesn't necessarily make it true. In fact with damage variance the Tenora xbow will do approx 3-10 more damage than your yohmei counterpart (with just some off hand calculations) when comparing with top end damage; or low end damage, or even average hit damage. This in fact is within the realm of damage variance so naturally if you compare low tier to high tier the difference will be significant.

http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=162689&forum=22&start=15&30#21 is how a test should be made, see how I taken into account that there is damage variance and took both top and high teir damage into account using approx 100+ sample size to make a proper conclusion. Now generally speaking the average hit is about the in between the two numbers, in fact perfectly in between both top tier and low tier damage.

Actually I'll do it right now, not only cause I'm somewhat an ass but also I have nothing better to do as I wait for my food to be delivered.



Constant variables:
Base ATP: 1159
Armor: Storm Line (No Power unit equipped)
No Buffs
Yak Banga lvl 16 (ATP mod of 131%) -not much for xbows myself-

This test will prove or disprove your claim that damage variance will indeed make up for the damage of lower ATP and thus deal more damage than a higher ATP weapon. For this test I opted to use a Yurasogi +3 and a Kokrosoki +0.

Yurasogi has a base ATP of 204 where is Kokrosoki has a base ATP of 226, equating to a base ATP difference of 22. Vahra lvl 100 from Plains Overlord S2 was the test mob.


Yurasogi damage ranged 280-288 with the average hit ranged from 284-286.
Kokrosoki damage ranged from 284-293 with the average hit ranged from 287-289

Conclusion, damage variance does not ensure that a higher ATP weapon will deal less damage than a lower ATP weapon, infact the damage difference between the two weapons was 4 damage.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-30 14:36 ]</font>

[Chaosgyro]

Despite Hrith being a jerk and a asshat most of the time, I do sort of get what he's saying here. If the difference between something with high ATP and something with low ATP is so small that damage variance can turn it into 3-10 points...why not grab the higher PP weapon? This is assuming that the aesthetics appeal equally of course.

[Shadow_Wing]

Exactly, both weapons with damage variance into consideration deal little to no difference, so makes it a non-issue which to use. Personally I utterly hate the yohmei look so I don't have a single yohmei range weapon in my arsenal, in addition to that, Photon Charges aren't exactly hard to come by either.

However his claim that a lower ATP weapon will dish out more damage on average than a higher ATP weapon is utter bullshit, no matter how you try to get your head around it.

Damage variance is a % based amount anyways, something I've found out using waaaay too many weapons from different companies. Why Tenora has higher damage variance than Yohmei, the less atp you the less it'll have difference.

D(1-0.V) = T is what the damage variance formula will look like on a basic level.

For example my friend averages a variance of about 100-150, I have a variance of about 50 on my AT, my fG has a variance of about 30

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-30 15:37 ]</font>

[HaydenX]

I'd still like to figure out exact proc rates for damage dealing SE (virus, burn and poison). Factoring those in will make a difference. It is the poison of Jogiri which made the decision for me vs. Caliburn. Then I got Chainsawd /c and switched for that.

The special abilities of weapons or SE make all of the difference in the world.

[Hrith]

lol Shadow_wing, you're such a noob, it's almost funny to see you fight facts with inexistant arguments.

Do you have an Ank Bico? Have you tried it?
The ATP says 1500.

A Bragnoh has 1070 ATP.

Since the variance of Ank Bico is 1-1500, its actual ATP is 750.
The variance of Bragnoh is very small, the actual ATP is 1000.

Conclusion: a weapon which displays 1500 ATP actually has 250 less ATP than a weapon which displays 1070.

Get over yourself, you're wrong, at least have the honesty to accept you've learned something you had no idea existed.

[amtalx]

*shoots topic in head*

[Chaosgyro]

Ank Bico is probably a pretty piss-poor example there Hrith. Hell, even its entry over at the item db says it has "highly variable attack power". Try again with something that isn't a novelty weapon.

[Hrith]

Try again using your brain.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-31 08:47, amtalx wrote:
*shoots topic in head*



*reloads*

Can we put the swords away gentleman?

[Shadow_Wing]

Sorry, quirk of mine, I really don't like it when people state false facts as truth http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif


Get over yourself, you're wrong, at least have the honesty to accept you've learned something you had no idea existed.

Funny same can be said to you. Unlike you though, I can take into account when I'm wrong, but Hirith, unfortunately you can't.

I've already settled the yohmei vs other company argument on a basic level non biased level. I've already debunked your lower atp weapon will deal more than a higher atp weapon due to variance argument. So unless you can really show me REAL facts without your ego, bias and stupidity, then I'll tip my hat to you; otherwise GTFO with your shit opinion that not only is it wrong, but illogical. Seriously, I'm tired of your biases, favoritism and ego making you unable to give proper advice and suggestions to others.

Additionally, Ank Bico is a poor example of a weapon to prove to me damage variance, the nature of the Bico is a highly unstable weapon damage wise.

So in conclusion, grow up and stop living in a fantasy world where everything in PSU is dictated by your own rules.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2007-12-31 13:53 ]</font>

[CelestialBlade]

On 2007-12-31 08:43, Hrith wrote:
lol Shadow_wing, you're such a noob, it's almost funny to see you fight facts with inexistant arguments.

Do you have an Ank Bico? Have you tried it?
The ATP says 1500.

A Bragnoh has 1070 ATP.

Since the variance of Ank Bico is 1-1500, its actual ATP is 750.
The variance of Bragnoh is very small, the actual ATP is 1000.

Conclusion: a weapon which displays 1500 ATP actually has 250 less ATP than a weapon which displays 1070.

Get over yourself, you're wrong, at least have the honesty to accept you've learned something you had no idea existed.

....does anyone else feel dumber from reading that? I'm sorry but that was a really terrible argument and "LOL UR WRONG" is not exactly helping your image of maturity.

Would you like to use a Continue?

Also people blow ATP differences out of proportion in general, so, use what looks best. Meh.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Let me see here. 20-30 damage, or something that will appease my Wapanese-ness. I'll take the weapon that appeases to my Wapanese-ness.

[MrNomad]

Let's see, guns that do extra damage, or guns that make me look like a fairy...Decisions decisions http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I guess some of the guns look a bit fairy-ish, like that Mizurakihoh. But the Yohmei blades do give us Fighters a Samurai-like image, which is what I want for my Human Acrofighter. But the 10* Laser Cannon looks pretty badass.
http://www.pso-world.com/psu/items/2411/6793-m.jpg

[amtalx]

That does look a might smexy, but is that offline? The PP on that is crippling. Unless it has infinity billion ATP, I'll pass. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Might use it for looks when I'm screwing around though.

[chu-chu-chu]

On 2008-01-02 05:20, amtalx wrote:
That does look a might smexy, but is that offline? The PP on that is crippling. Unless it has infinity billion ATP, I'll pass. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Might use it for looks when I'm screwing around though.

Well, it's description might say it has infinity billion ATP, but with variance, it's actual ATP is 22. <->.<O>!

[amtalx]

On 2008-01-02 06:35, chu-chu-chu wrote:

On 2008-01-02 05:20, amtalx wrote:
That does look a might smexy, but is that offline? The PP on that is crippling. Unless it has infinity billion ATP, I'll pass. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Might use it for looks when I'm screwing around though.

Well, it's description might say it has infinity billion ATP, but with variance, it's actual ATP is 22. <->.<O>!



OH SNAP!!

[Hrith]

In the worst case scenario, variance will halve your ATP, nub.

[panzer_unit]

... and in every case except Ank Bico it's not significant for anything except for making some rigged screen grabs to back up some fail argument on a message board lol.

[amtalx]

On 2007-12-31 10:01, amtalx wrote:

On 2007-12-31 08:47, amtalx wrote:

*shoots topic in head*


*reloads*



*arms nuke*

[chu-chu-chu]

On 2008-01-02 07:47, Hrith wrote:
In the worst case scenario, variance will halve your ATP, nub.

Sorry to hear about the death of your sense of humor.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2008-01-02 08:37, chu-chu-chu wrote:

On 2008-01-02 07:47, Hrith wrote:
In the worst case scenario, variance will halve your ATP, nub.

Sorry to hear about the death of your sense of humor.



*pours a litle 40oz on the floor*

[Kylie]

They aren't completely worthless, but I know what you mean. Personally, I'm all about taking a hit in attack for looks or easy use. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Such as I avoid grinding and use whatever element looks prettiest / what I have on me instead of going, "Hey! Let me go get my EARTH weapons!" >_>; Idunno, I'm just Southern, so leave me alone.