Gunner Improvements

[Fox_Makenshi]

Hunters have JA, combos (with PA's), high % weapons.

Forces have a multitude of spells (that change as they level) at their disposal.

Rangers have the ability to hit the same button over and over again and see the exact same bullet animation. >.> Oh and SE's that don't help much since most enemies die in < 10 seconds now anyway.

I think there should be a change in gunner gameplay since it is (and I don't think anyone would disagree with me here) quite monotonous. Sure we can change elements on the go but so can Forces.

Maybe have the strong/weak attacks from PSO for guns or something like JA. Bullets that look even slightly different as they level would be a cool addition. Bullet PA's that do something other than a new SE or element (Mass Effect had some cool gun skills such as a huge blast for shotguns or higher rate of fire for pistols).

Anyone else have any new ideas or agree with those stated here? Not that it would matter much but I'd just like to hear opinions.

Love,
Fox Makenshi

[Turambar]

Different bullet animation would be a bit redundant considering S-rank guns already have their own unique bullet animations. However, yes, guns need some kind of JA like boost. Even that can be negated if they simply give enemies more HP so that SE can actually make a difference.

[Fox_Makenshi]

Yeah but JA for guns would make the gameplay less repetitive so I'd take that, though I'd prefer a weak/strong attack like from PSO. Not saying OMG PSO IS TEH BEST I WANT PSU TO BE PSO, I just think it was a good idea.

Love,
Fox Makenshi

[Shadow_Wing]

I wouldn't mind a stong attack, like it would take more PP than normal bullets... Something like that would work so well actually lol.

[Chuck_Norris]

Sounds like a good idea. They could set it to the PA button.

[Dhylec]

Another action button for gunner would be nice. Either a Roll/Evade action or a Power up/Charge button.

[HaydenX]

On 2007-12-30 17:20, Dhylec wrote:
Another action button for gunner would be nice. Either a Roll/Evade action or a Power up/Charge button.



Charge attack would r0xx0rz t3h 50xx0rz 0fF t3h f007

[OldCoot]

I think this would be a good idea, but it seems that a good portion of the population is already gunners of some sort. Does Sega need to add more to encourage more players to play gunner?

[CelestialBlade]

I want either a Charge attack or the ability to Roll like gunner enemies do. There's currently no use for the PA button on two-handed guns, so why not?

Hunters get JA/JC and Forces just got a Rod boost, it's about freaking time we get SOMETHING. I'm noticing the Ranger population is quickly dwindling, and it isn't hard to see why. But until ST quits jerking off to Hunters and until Forces stop bitching, we probably won't see much.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Typheros on 2007-12-30 17:35 ]</font>

[MSAksion]

1) VISUAL AND AUDIO. Make bullets larger and more sparkly. Make the sound of each bullet more powerful booming sounding when upgraded.

***NOTE*** The following could easily be done by tapping or Charging the PA Attack button.

2a) KNEELING POSITION - Rifles. Shoot a fast 3 round burst while kneeling. Lower ATA but 3 chances to status. Enemy Cast Rangers do this already.

2b) KNEELING POSITION - Bows. Turn sideways and shoot ONE bigger BOW bolt for extra power. Slow to pull back the "string" Enemy COG Bow women do this already.

3) DODGE ROLL - small arms. Such as Twin Handguns, Crossbow, M-gun be able to roll dodge to avoid attacks. Run and tap PA button to roll in that direction. Enemy Cast Rangers and Vol brother has this already.

4) COUNTER FAN SLAP ATTACK - Card Fans. It looks like a shield (yohmei) or a parrying knife (grm)- I'd deflect an enemy sword with it, then counter with a fan slap to the face XD

5) CHARGE BLAST - Laser. Longer you charge the bigger the blast and more damaging. Enemy Cast Laser Men of AMF Subway have this already.

6) SOMERSAULT BLAST - Shotgun. hmm... i'd like to see a PA where you somersault jump to dodge and upside down in midair you'd unload into a monster's head for more damage.

7) VARIABLE SHOT DISTANCE - Grenade. Hold the PA Button and HIT up to increase Grenade Range or HIT Down to reduce Grenade Range. A targeting Circle shows where it will land while you Aim.

Please sega - read this and do it. Make Ranger interesting compared to AIR SWIMMING Melee or explosive looking TECH. Pew Pew Pew isn't cutting it anymore.

[Fox_Makenshi]

Those are some amazing ideas, I love the fact that the first 3 are already in the game but not available to players.

Love,
Fox Makenshi

[Mio]

I would like to add special bullets (the ultimate bullet arts) on the PA button, combining with the regular elemental bullets, thus giving elemental property to the special bullet effect but with different ATP % and ATA %.

Example:

Rifle equipped with Ice Bullet and Killer Shot
Regular Attack: 33% Ice 175% ATP bullet for 11 pp
PA Attack: 33% Ice 180% ATP killer bullet for 40 pp

Wouldn't be great?

[Miyoko]

I still think giving every enemy a "headshot box" that acts as our JA, and gives 1.5x damage would be the best. That way, First Person mode has a use, rifles and bows get a MUCH needed boost, and rangers get their own JA that's completely different than hunters.

[chu-chu-chu]

On 2007-12-30 17:50, Mio wrote:
I would like to add special bullets (the ultimate bullet arts) on the PA button

So obvious a set-up that Sonic Team seems pretty dim not to have implemented it.

[superdood22]

charge to fire bigger bullets that do more hits would be nice.

[unicorn]

Charging up bullets like MEGAMAN! :B

[unicorn]

On 2007-12-30 18:44, super_luu wrote:
Charging up bullets like MEGAMAN! :B



and Samus.

[Criss]

SO many great suggestions in here. Including things that enemies can already do. I REALLY hope ST will work their brains for once and do something about it.

[TheTofuShop]

I definitely agree here, Gunner class is so monotonous, just X button all day. Some of these suggestions are great.

[HandOfThornz]

Excellent ideas on this thread to improve gunners/ bullets!!!

I've been some type of a gunner class since EU PSU V1 release. I love gunners, espically twin guns.
I've got say mashing at a button constantly is driving me nuts for over a year! lol
I'd love to see pso, timing button pushing and stromg/weak atk buttons too, yes pso style but it worked much better than the current system. It would give more enjoyment.

If we're asking ST to change anything, i'd love a reduction on the amount on points to lvl gun pa's up too! My fingers kill, lol RSI =/
I played PSO for 5 years and not once did i get hand ache from hitting gun buttons! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Zorafim]

Actually, the whole "hit the weakspot for massive damage" seems like a good idea. Having a spot on more difficult enemies that has less defense, but is only accessible to gunners, would make gunning more fun. Shooting a Jarba in the face instead of the body dealing critical damage, for instance.
If I'm not mistaken, ST advertised something like this before the game was released, and I've only seen it implemented on certain bosses.

[Chuck_Norris]

Maybe gunners could walk in FPS mode. You know, like a REAL FPS.

[ChaosAngel92]

Shotguns need a huge knockback when hitting zero distance. Bump btw, this topic need more posters >>

[Jakosifer]

On 2007-12-30 17:51, Miyoko wrote:
I still think giving every enemy a "headshot box" that acts as our JA, and gives 1.5x damage would be the best. That way, First Person mode has a use, rifles and bows get a MUCH needed boost, and rangers get their own JA that's completely different than hunters.



I swear thats my favorite idea Ive heard on improving gunners. I'd actually have kept my alt if there were something like that. +5 Kudos'

[JAFO22000]

They should let rangers shoot machineguns constantly without a loss of PP.

[Dhylec]

On 2008-01-02 20:29, JAFO22000 wrote:
They should let rangers shoot machineguns constantly without a loss of PP.

I think you're talking about the notorious MG glitch. ;]

[Omega_Weltall]

ya i was thinking of an alt fire thing like in the Unreal Tournament games

[AlphaDragoon]

I think the weak/strong attack is a good idea, and actually one I hoped would be implemented into melee weapons before JA was released. The dodge rolling and all that is cool too, but I believe it would go from the Ranger types getting the shaft to the Hunter/Force types with such a thing. Dodge roll/quick evasion would be too good a thing for just one type to have, it's actually something I thought should be implemented in general.

They could alternatively just give certain gun types JA (obviously it wouldn't be possible for some weapons such as mechguns), minus the PP gain.

EDIT: That "body targets such as the head taking more damage" idea is excellent, by the way.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AlphaDragoon on 2008-01-02 21:20 ]</font>

[Turbobrain]

How about 'effects' for indvidual weps, ie PP steal, HP steal, messeta for high attack, low HP= high attack[small]tries to think of more from PSO but is very tired levelling up Cast FG and forgetfull in old age*.

[Reipard]

We already have that in the form of bullet PAs.

[MT7218]

On top of what has been said, here's something I'd like to see: Melee attacks with your gun. Not something uberpowerful, just something to do to get enemies out of your face and react accordingly. Like the Caseals in AMF who shoot Diga out of their grenade launchers. A heavy bash with things like the grenade launchers or laser cannons, or a pistolwhip with lighter firearms. Something to buy you time to either back out and resume fire or switch to a weapon that would be better up close.

[Genoa]

-I always thought that different bullet elements should effect how the bullets sound effect would be for firing and landing on the enemy (with S-ranks excluded)

-Just Counter should be some form or fashion of a pistol whip. You can even base the attack power off of your regular attack stat and add an additional like... 25% to it with Critical. Each gun would have their own whip-animation. (I keep seeing myself swinging that huge Grenade Launcher back at the enemy's face... it's making me happy)

-The Photon Art command I suppose could just be the same idea of Just Counter... A pistol-whip idea of some kind... Not a combo however, that's just silly... making a 3-hit pistol-whipping combo? No thanks... just one good swing and be done with it.
All Pistol-Whips, counter or not, should have knock-back. Seeing the damage would be based off your Attack stat (not including your weapon, seeing weapons like Machineguns would blow at a counter) with an additional 25% or what not, that's not like... outstanding damage or anything, but it would knock-back the enemy so you can shoot them again.
I'm tired of running and re-positioning all the time... And the counter idea would usually work seeing gunners have high ATA anyways, so you don't run the chance of failing.

[Akaimizu]

I like the Just-attack pistol whip idea. It definitely wont make the gunner stronger, but it certainly would make them look cooler. I also especially like the suggestions for things that are actually in the game (via enemy use), but players can't use.

[amtalx]

I've never been a big fan of a pistol whip. Rangers have an incredibly heightened melee ability now. Use it.

On a different note, gunners need something. We have barely any S ranks in AoI, we only got a couple post-AoI PA boosts while techers and fighters got the reach-around, every other classes SE abilities increased...while ours did not, the almighty move-cancelling "flinch" was added to every fucking attack in the game, and we got completely sodomized on certain PAs (Killer Shot sound familiar?)

I don't think its so much that gunners need something extra, as we need our purpose back...SE. Just make it so enemies don't die in the blink of an eye, and....GIVE US SE5!!! Then all will be right in the universe.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_argh.gif



Also, stop making topics about how gunners are getting hosed, I get too fired up. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Akaimizu]

It's funny, but that's precisely why I love going after the big high HP monsters as they are the ones that give my SEs some real purpose. You know, the same SEs that I spent literally many hundreds of hours to obtain. The low-mid stuff is just for hunting for junk. My GTs melee still sucks and I generally avoid it if I can.

Not that I have an issue with a lack of melee given that ST made the GT with every intention that they should rely on everything else but melee and attack spells. On the other hand, it would be nice to see something change as you level up stuff. Hunters get cool additional flair as they level stuff, and so do forces. As of now, the only cooler thing we have to look forward to is higher damage numbers popping on a monster. Certain S ranks have neater looking bullets(not all), but nobody else is forced to get S ranks for that nor are they forced to play missions that are still code-broken to obtain such weapons. I guess with GT, I actually play a gunner with more variety than the X button due to tech usage.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-03 09:02 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

The idea gunners need love is BS considering the huge boost that shotguns and lasers got... we had stagger and reasonable SE apply rates tacked on to what were already our best weapons Q.Q OH NOES THE WIN BUTTON IS BORING TO HIT.

Oh let's not forget grenades going insane for ATP... the 260% you end up at is the same damage as JA with a 170% (lotta other bullets, melee PA moves, etc) attack... and getting their attack costs cut almost by half.

[Akaimizu]

I think you're missing the entire point of this topic. It has nothing to do with power levels. It's simply something cool whether it's more variety, or other visuals to the attacks. Just some cool-looking or playing aspect like that which everybody else gets exclusively.

Just a little something to increase coolness, not improve the power game or something. From day one, our improvements were measured just in numbers, which of course, you're denoting quite the same. Numbers are nice, but hunters and forces don't just get number improvements for their hard work.

Like most of us said, "This would be cool" Don't equate "This would be cool" with "OMG We're teh suck!!!"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-03 09:27 ]</font>

[majan]

ultimate gun PA's should have special effects rather than this green neutral element bullshit. killer shot should look something like a blackbull's bullet or maybe a mini megid ball,mayalee prism should look pretty badass too. watever though,I guess sega meant for us to have choices to make,such as "if you do not enjoy using guns to shoot things,and only this, do not choose a gunner class."

[amtalx]

My complaint at least has nothing to do with damage. I think gunner damage output is fine. However, one of the things that makes a gunner a gunner is gone, SE. Case in point, enemies need to be stronger. The kid mode stuff is getting pretty old.

Other classes also get more "flare". What did I get for getting my Xbows to 31? The same shit I got for 21. What does a force get for getting Diga to 31? A FUCKING PLANET.

[panzer_unit]

There's a definite sub-topic here that gunners didn't get as much love as fighters did with their additional S-ranks, better SE access, and Just Attack. I strongly disagree with that. It's not a glamorous boost we got but it's really really significant. A lot of this "cool stuff" sounds like it's about "catching up" with fighters JA or augmenting a gunner's already absurd defensiveness.

I do like the idea of linking two skills to a single weapon, you could get a lot more mileage out of those highly-situational ultimate skills if they weren't a weapon switch away and eating up a whole palette space.
It's also not the sort of thing that could turn into some ridiculous game breaker where the job already living on easy street with our range and high hp and high evade all of a sudden become crazy damage monsters as well with laser cannon/penetrating hit/standing on stairs with a shotgun mass-headshot abuse... or chargin' mah laser over 9000 at all the right times because I know a map and all the spawn patterns really well.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-01-03 09:46 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

The Better SE access is all about the fact that, at the moment, there isn't enough long living monsters for which strong SEs even make a difference anymore. That's partially because getting those SEs for most weapons that could get them, took a very long investment to get. However, if they lost their exclusive use then it is a disappointment. Remember back when you got the praise that you brought in that nice SE4 which greatly shortened the fight? You don't see much of that anymore. So that's probably the only *cool* factor that I can see, was lost a bit.

The Just attack stuff was all apart of the *playability* addition factor of the game, making the class just more fun to play. Nowadays, you have 1 button for a gun. When you level, you see nothing but better numbers. No flair, no flash, no cool factor. So don't confuse the sub-topic aspect. The JA stuff was not a discussion of numbers and better damage than thou. It added a new playability factor to increase the fun now that you have these cool (PSO-like) timings to take advantage of that.

A hunter pulling a full 5 or 6 combo of regular-comboed to special using all Just Attacks to tie them together is a great bit of extra fun. You utilize more skill to use it than just tapping the button, etc. And at the same time, because they earned the skills to pull a 5 or 6, they see the new batch of prettiness with it.

Techs, on the other hand, don't necessarily get the playability fun, but the visual aid and increased area of effect aspects. The 2nd aspect is maybe a numbers thing, so forget that; but how cool it is that, all of a sudden, you're chucking small planets after you hit that cool level?

On the other hand, the gun coolness improvements (not numbers) are subtle, at best. Nothing nobody really noticible except for the new fact that more guns take flying creatures out of the sky. Always nice that I can now use twins to knock down flying folks instead of being forced to switch to rifles and bows just to do that aspect alone.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-03 10:13 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but gunners (fortegunners specifically), were far too strong, pre-AoI. Now they are near correct. If you wanted to make and improvement, I think the most simple idea is to allow more than one bullet per gun, even if it's only normal bullets. Along that same line, I'd probably make normal bullets 0 pp

[panzer_unit]

This is hardly a new issue though. Maybe nobody noticed before, since release day when foie lv11 looked bigger and more awesome than foir lv10... or Bogga Danga got that awesome backhand-and-kick combo move, while Twin Plasma was still the same yellow globs they were at lv1 or that they are at lv40 now?

... maybe I'm getting this wrong but when you JA it's the exact same combo you would do before with button mashing, only slower and with the yellow burst at the start of each move. It's not that exciting to watch or do IMO, and actually sucks considering that you're pushing the timing as long as possible and if you end up just on the wrong side of it because of slow thumbs, lag, or stagger, you get an akward nothing instead of the next attack. We get the exact same thing on Just Counter, except for the bigger numbers.

AOI did throw some new graphics at us too. We get it for changing our gear, not our skills. S-rank guns of all sorts (gur asted for planet-chucking), Yohmei lasers, Tenora A-rank handguns, and Deghana Cannon all have unique bullet appearances. Speaking of which, what does Twin Penetrating look like on Arb Biso or whatever... is there a little pair of explosions on everything you hit? I bet it would be the last nail in my poor PS2's coffin trying to render all that.

[amtalx]

I don't think anyone will disagree with you that gunners were too powerful pre-AoI. Ranged damage being close to melee damage is laughable. Add SE to that? Far from fair.

However, the number of improvements exclusive to gunners are pretty much just increased damage on a couple weapons while other classes got a serious amount of polish. Whether the "cool factor" affects gameplay or not, the fact still remains that gunners got a greeting card for AoI, while techers and fighters got a blowjob and a steak. Is it really that hard to put some nice looking effect on 31 Laser Cannons (I was thinking that ringed particle effect you commonly see on rail guns)? After all, I worked about 3x harder to get my skill leveled than some fighter that capped 3 skills in the time it took me to get one to 31.

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-01-03 10:37, amtalx wrote:
I don't think anyone will disagree with you that gunners were too powerful pre-AoI. Ranged damage being close to melee damage is laughable.

Being close to FORTEFIGHTER melee damage, yes laugh.

If you're not giving a Protranser with an axe... maybe Fighgunner and Acrofighter too... some kind of run for their money as a Fortegunner, work harder. Good slicer shots excluded of course.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-01-03 10:52 ]</font>

[GuardianElite]

On 2008-01-03 10:37, amtalx wrote:
I don't think anyone will disagree with you that gunners were too powerful pre-AoI. Ranged damage being close to melee damage is laughable. Add SE to that? Far from fair.

However, the number of improvements exclusive to gunners are pretty much just increased damage on a couple weapons while other classes got a serious amount of polish. Whether the "cool factor" affects gameplay or not, the fact still remains that gunners got a greeting card for AoI, while techers and fighters got a blowjob and a steak. Is it really that hard to put some nice looking effect on 31 Laser Cannons (I was thinking that ringed particle effect you commonly see on rail guns)? After all, I worked about 3x harder to get my skill leveled than some fighter that capped 3 skills in the time it took me to get one to 31.



I must missed out when they were giving them out http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Fox_Makenshi]

This topic is indeed about playability and flair and not numbers. Ranged weapons in almost any game give distance and sacrifice power. I'm not concerned with dealing big numbers, I'm concerned with having fun while playing gunner.

Having an added flair to bullets PAs gives you something to look forward to. The best example of this can be seen in Ratchet and Clank (No I'm not saying that PSU is like Ratchet and Clank). When I played those games I would use one weapon exclusively to level it up just to see it do something cooler.

Having added playability makes the class much more fun to play in general. Being able to dodge roll or just having the option to use 2 buttons to do different things would make gunners a ton of fun to play compared to the 1 button mash-fest we have now.

Love,
Fox Makenshi

[panzer_unit]

Look, punk. Back in my day we were LUCKY to have one button instead of ungrippable block with some huge analog knob that looked like it was recycled from a stereo tuner. Mash that button. There are videogame-starved kids in africa who'd die for something like that.

[Fox_Makenshi]

What does that have to do with the gunners of PSU? I'm talking about the gameplay for gunners in PSU being a little on the boring side, especially compared to the flair and playability that Hunters and Techers get.

Bringing up ancient game systems and children in africa has NO relevance to the topic at hand.

Love,
Fox Makenshi

[Akaimizu]

It was a joke. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Kind of like, back in my day I remember we used to only have 1 single button and a rubber stick. Played games where you see these single-colored sick-looking ducks that the *game* called dragons, trying to get this darn key to enter some castle somewhere, but the stupid freakin' bat keeps coming along and taking the freakin' key.

But the fun was back (with that one button) oh yessirre. It's the 2600 from A-ta-ri.

(Why oh why, do I actually remember the words to that ancient Atari 2600 commercial. I think when you barely getting your teeth to grow, any commercials imprint themselves in your brain.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-03 13:25 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

Combat was more my speed.

Anyway, yes that was a PSU adaption of the Typical Old Man Rant. "Six miles uphill. Both ways! In the snow!!" and everything. I guess there's sort of a point too, that the fact you're only hitting one button for everything isn't a problem in itself. After all, those Atari games were all fun. I certainly never find myself at a loss for anything to do as a gunner.

I've got to position for the best effect from my strongest weapons, I've got traps, crowd control to take care of, aggro management of a sort, can switch up to gun-and-melee combat and use PA's and JA. It's a lot more than just mashing one button. It's not new and fun, but neither is Just Attack, IMO... that's just frustration whenever you screw up and don't get big numbers like you're supposed to.

[SolomonGrundy]

fortegunners got level 20 skills - that means there are all new animations for them to get

ALL gunner types got shadoogs. Just because "you" don't like them does not mean they are not an improvement.

To address the complain that SE no longer makes a difference...go do a mission with (ye) olde style jarbas (the ones with dambarata and megids). these still take some time to kill because you have to be carful.

I don't think anyone would argue that GTs got the win button. S rank bows, level 30 support, and level 20 attack techs. plenty of stuff for them to level and enjoy. What's that? Your guntecher is a cast, and you don't use the attack techs? Well...whose fault IS that, exactly?

plenty of new ranged weapons options as well (new GLs, new rifles, twin pistols).


if you want to bitch about something, bitch about the fact that gunners were supposed to have high tier EVP, and are now behind FT, aF, AT, and WT...

[chu-chu-chu]

Your take on this is a strange one, Sol.

It is cold comfort to a fortegunner that he can be more like a fighgunner.

The issue is what can be done to the monotonous "x" mashing of gunning.

Obviously, some suggestions and complaints in this thread miss the mark. Our damage is fine, we don't need to jump through the air, but it wouldn't have blown Sonic Team up if they had added a Y function of some sort to our guns, especially given the nature of many bullet PAs.

[superdood22]

kneeling and rolling would also be a nice touch (and that idea about huge knockback on upclose enemies). weak spots seems a bit too difficult for ST however charging, kneeling, and rolling can just be reskinned for rangers from those humanoid enemies.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2008-01-03 15:40, chu-chu-chu wrote:
Your take on this is a strange one, Sol.

It is cold comfort to a fortegunner that he can be more like a fighgunner.

The issue is what can be done to the monotonous "x" mashing of gunning.

Obviously, some suggestions and complaints in this thread miss the mark. Our damage is fine, we don't need to jump through the air, but it wouldn't have blown Sonic Team up if they had added a Y function of some sort to our guns, especially given the nature of many bullet PAs.



I already commented that a Y button would be nice, but I think two elements on a single weapon would be overpowered...even if it rendered the weapon elementally neutral, this is why I mentioned a simple no-cost, normal shot.

As far as a crouch/roll? It is such a horrifying advantage to be able to do this, that is would be broken. As it is many gunner weapons are quite mobile.

If you don't like hitting the X button, don't play a ranger.

[GoldRidley]

Whoa. Stop the presses. Giving S-Rank guns a second bullet slot is an extremely good idea, and would add to the versatility of an already versatile class.

Actually, screw that. Gunners are fine. We shouldn't be needing improvements - in fact the only problem I see is those smarmy hunters taking hunter level damage per hit and smearing it all over our ranged territory with that broken goddamn slicer PA. Nerf THAT, and we're where we should be.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: GoldRidley on 2008-01-04 06:34 ]</font>

[Reipard]

I think an alt fire option ala Unreal Tournament would be awesome. Statements like "If you don't like hitting the X button, don't play a ranger." are flawed and ridiculous. There's always room for additional (balanced) variety.

[chu-chu-chu]

On 2008-01-03 19:30, SolomonGrundy wrote:
I already commented that a Y button would be nice, but I think two elements on a single weapon would be overpowered...even if it rendered the weapon elementally neutral, this is why I mentioned a simple no-cost, normal shot.

As far as a crouch/roll? It is such a horrifying advantage to be able to do this, that is would be broken. As it is many gunner weapons are quite mobile.

If you don't like hitting the X button, don't play a ranger.

You keep returning to obviously silly ideas. Crouch and roll is stupid. We know that.

Two elements on a single weapon is an idea of economy of space not of power. It would hardly break the class. The analogies and solutions are so obvious as not needing to be stated. In any event, the option of adding non-elemental PA frag PAs skirts it.

Finally, you should go fuck yoursadself telling us what class to be simply because we wish our gameplay was varied. There are thoughtful posters here suggesting ways to liven up the gameplay of something they enjoy enough to spend hundreds of hours doing. You sound like one of those "Love it or leave it" shallow muttonheads. Don't you have another thread somewhere else to parade your know-it-all attitude and stupidity in?

[Akaimizu]

To a certain degree, that's true. That is, the person above the last comment. I don't agree with people getting all angry over each other for what should've been a constructive and regular discussion.

Still, the argument against asking for any other gunner variation is equivalent to stating that Hunters, before the expansion, should never ask for a Just Attack kind of thing for them just because they don't have them already. The Hunters did ask for something more akin to PSO timings, and guess what, they got it. Was that so wrong? I didn't see a bunch of people complaining about hunters asking for such things. They got it, and that's fine and dandy. But it's perfectly all right that they did. However, the same can't be true for gunners? Do we have to live with that much double standards in our discussions?

And how does multi-element break gunners? It certainly doesn't break forces. Did giving wands the ability to have two elemental attacks based on which button was pressed break them? Do people think they gain power from that choice? No, they simply have 1 less (I have to move and switch pallettes) aspect to their gameplay. Not to mention, more pallette switching means more often you can't get to use that element fast enough due to lag. Helping against lag isn't a gamebreaker, as far as I can see; especially when you have that open button to do it. Besides, in a perfect world, where we don't lag, swapping pallettes for each element of attack would work just as fast and not be any more broken. But lag is here, and it's here to stay. I'd say the idea could help in both ways.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-04 07:15 ]</font>

[Yusaku_Kudou]

The main problem I have is that most bullet PAs take far too long to level up, especially for their stats. I almost only play fortefighter since they added Just Attack. The damage is there, they die fast, and it just looks cool. I suppose Fortegunner is still my favorite, which is what I put my newman on. I have every Twin Handgun PA, but they take so long to level up (with the expection of Twin Penetration), that compared to skill PA it's so slow. I suppose techs take a while too (dizas and rentis come to mind offline......), but they become grandeur and change a lot at each of the X1 levels.

It's true most enemies die too quickly to be stuck with SEs, so I hope S2s come out for current missions as soon as possible to help balance the game again. I want to be fighting level 180 enemies with a level 120 cap, m'kay? The only mission that really poses a challenge at all is Awoken Serpent S with those evil deady Moatoob monsters, but nobody does that anymore. "It's too hard, wah."

[amtalx]

On 2008-01-03 13:59, SolomonGrundy wrote:
fortegunners got level 20 skills - that means there are all new animations for them to get



Agreed, but this is just a hand-me-down from fighters. How about something new for gunners.



ALL gunner types got shadoogs. Just because "you" don't like them does not mean they are not an improvement.


Too bad just about every weapon in a gunners arsenal far exceeds damage and SE for Shadoogs. Shadoogs are about as useful as a screen door behind the hatch of a submarine...and an A-rank screen door at that.



To address the complain that SE no longer makes a difference...go do a mission with (ye) olde style jarbas (the ones with dambarata and megids). these still take some time to kill because you have to be carful.


Shotguns taken rectally will destroy Jarbas in a matter of shots. "Serving #31. Will the next Jarba please approach and bend over..."



I don't think anyone would argue that GTs got the win button. S rank bows, level 30 support, and level 20 attack techs. plenty of stuff for them to level and enjoy. What's that? Your guntecher is a cast, and you don't use the attack techs? Well...whose fault IS that, exactly?


Agreed.



plenty of new ranged weapons options as well (new GLs, new rifles, twin pistols).


...every aspect of my equipment eclipsed the A-rank garbage that AoI threw at us (except for melee weapons). 1UP dropped caviar from the heavens, and then we get a ham and cheese sandwich for AoI. S-rank drops for gunners? I'm afraid you are playing the wrong game good sir.



if you want to bitch about something, bitch about the fact that gunners were supposed to have high tier EVP, and are now behind FT, aF, AT, and WT...


Yep.

[pikachief]

i leik ham a cheese samiches http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

*hunts for 10* nudaiz axe*

OMG THERE IT IS lol

[jayster]

I think we should be able to asign elements to x and y button on guns. So if you can assign fire bullets to X and Ice to Y. I dont see why this couldn't easily be done.

[DarkEliteRico]

On 2008-01-04 07:56, pikachief wrote:
i leik ham a cheese samiches http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

*hunts for 10* nudaiz axe*

OMG THERE IT IS lol

reminds me to make some tomato soup for lunch as well

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2008-01-04 07:51, amtalx wrote:

On 2008-01-03 13:59, SolomonGrundy wrote:
fortegunners got level 20 skills - that means there are all new animations for them to get




Agreed, but this is just a hand-me-down from fighters. How about something new for gunners.

I think it is a mistake to think about fortegunner as a pure ranged damage type now. I agree that the NAME says "use gunz all teh tyme" but the reality is that fortegunners can spam the best 2 parts of majarra, while dropping a virus G trap. Suck it, svaltus.




Too bad just about every weapon in a gunners arsenal far exceeds damage and SE for Shadoogs. Shadoogs are about as useful as a screen door behind the hatch of a submarine...and an A-rank screen door at that.

I'll go ahead and disagee there. Is there a GT weapon that stuns better? Also, when you happen to have a 1 handed melee weapon in your hand, is it so bad to still be inflicting SEs?



To address the complain that SE no longer makes a difference...go do a mission with (ye) olde style jarbas (the ones with dambarata and megids). these still take some time to kill because you have to be carful.



Shotguns taken rectally will destroy Jarbas in a matter of shots. "Serving #31. Will the next Jarba please approach and bend over..."

Lolololol. Those other jarabs will megids you dead...did you think they were going to nap while you shotgunned them? I did some labs the other day to verify.



I don't think anyone would argue that GTs got the win button. S rank bows, level 30 support, and level 20 attack techs. plenty of stuff for them to level and enjoy. What's that? Your guntecher is a cast, and you don't use the attack techs? Well...whose fault IS that, exactly?


So your gripe is with fortegunner, formerly the most dominant job in the game. Are you unhappy because a gunner no longer had the number 1 seed? I don't mean to be insulting, I am genuinely curious.



plenty of new ranged weapons options as well (new GLs, new rifles, twin pistols).



...every aspect of my equipment eclipsed the A-rank garbage that AoI threw at us (except for melee weapons). 1UP dropped caviar from the heavens, and then we get a ham and cheese sandwich for AoI. S-rank drops for gunners? I'm afraid you are playing the wrong game good sir.

unfair, and untrue. A rank GLs look amazing, and grind well. Tenora machine guns for the glitchers ;_; PP costs for crossbows at 31+ mean that yohemi X bows are useful.

Oh wait, I can now assemble 5-10 S rank rifles with 2000+ pp for killer shot goodness. Or are you saying killer shot is no longer good?



if you want to bitch about something, bitch about the fact that gunners were supposed to have high tier EVP, and are now behind FT, aF, AT, and WT...



Yep.


Well, at least we are on the same page with that...