Concern about Guntecher

[ChaosAngel92]

I have been playing a lot this job and to be honest. Im tired of it. I realised its just way too much support for me. I mean, i always resta everytime someone damages. Reverser is always in my equipment as long as buffs and Har/Quick. I also provide of buffs everytime someone needs it. am i playing wrong?

To be honest i choosed Guntecher because of the S rank dual pistols. Im in love of them and i though it was "my" job because of this fact. But i the end its really hard to even attack on the enemies. You keep supporting a lot to only damage 2 or 3 times and then its over. There is no firearm action at all. After i realised this i tried xbows. I love them too now, but same thing. Its really hard you get that action i get with Fighgunner and Fortegunner. Its ok, im not saying Guntecher has to be other way or need anything else. But they are nurses, just that, nurses. And i dont like it, i dont like it at all. I need more action, and thats the reason i just switched to Fighgunner again.

So im in a big contradiction, i need more action with Guntecher but i still want to be one because of the S rank dualies.

Oh god, when someone said "why not giving the Fighgunners S dual pistols?" I said "HELL NOOO!!". Now, i pray for it.

I would like to think that in the future, when this such called "Masterclasses" comes out, one of them eventually will have the S rank twin handguns, and then i could stay on a job where i wouldnt have to resa everytime someone hurts, even if its a itty bitty part of the HP bar.

So, im looking forward to give a last chance to the Guntecher job. The question is, why should i stay in it?

And also, feel free to post any thing you want. I just dont want to think i wasted weeks on a fail.

[ChaosAngel92]

From the Guide of Guntechers from imfanboy:

http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=132022&forum=22&3

Two-handed Guns

Two-handed guns are a problematic thing for the guntecher. On the one hand, they're all useful, deal out good damage, have PAs that you need, etcetera; on the other, they remove your ability to tote a wand.

But you can't fear that. After all, not EVERYTHING can be solved with the one-handed guns.



Exactly, but in the end they are problematic. Its not the exact "Gunslinger" job im looking. And we all know GT is a support thingy.

[RavenTW]

You could always wait until people ask for heals, and charge them if they do so excessively.

All kidding aside, if you want to dual pistols, then dual pistols. Don't let the fact that you CAN Resta take over the fact that you WANT to dual pistols. The minute you play a class a certain way because somebody said that is how the class is supposed to be played, instead of playing the class for fun, that's when the game doesn't become fun.

I personally hope to make myself an AcroFighter, simply because I want a Claw in one hand and a pistol in the other. Do what makes you happy, all there is to it.

[CelestialBlade]

I'm a support-build Guntecher and I have all the time in the world to use my dualies. I do use Giresta and Buffs a lot but it doesn't take that much time. I dunno, I guess I just don't party with people that die a lot.

It can very easily be a good offensive class, while balancing support at the same time.

[ChaosAngel92]

Both of you are right, i will give the last chance to my Guntecher job. Its just that i dont know, i support like that and i use resta a lots of time everywhere. Its how i learned on PSO to support. Sigh, i wish i can keep with the Guntecher job.

[Shadow_Wing]

On 2008-01-02 20:54, Typheros wrote:
I'm a support-build Guntecher and I have all the time in the world to use my dualies. I do use Giresta and Buffs a lot but it doesn't take that much time. I dunno, I guess I just don't party with people that die a lot.

It can very easily be a good offensive class, while balancing support at the same time.

Well there might be a reason for that http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Anyways, stabbing jokes at chels aside, as an AT I still find myself getting a few PAs into the action and pretty much in the fray as much as the other melee classes. The main thing is to find out when people need a heal or two. Generally speaking most people can take a few hits and not necessarily need a heal every time they get hit.

Heal after battle, throw in the odd giresta while running, reapply buff at the start of lvls or the 1st battle and then you'll find out that supportive techs don't necessarily need to be spammed during fights.

You don't necessarily need supportive techs in every pallet spot, I only have it in 2 pallet spots and I'm an AT. You just have to experiment a bit more imo, try to be less supportive while still being on top of things and who knows you might find that eureka moment.

[Pillan]

The best thing to do is set a damage quota before healing. I like to start thinking about it when I see someone down to 2/3s HP and actively heal when they're down to half. Depending on your version, it may take more time to move through your pallet, so take that into account as well.

But, as has been said before, it's generally not difficult to do both. If you're having trouble, you may just be healing too often.

[Akaimizu]

Well, there's only one case in which your party is running into much trouble. It doesn't happen too often, but in those cases you often have to suck it up and realize you're not going to tag monsters in order to keep your partners going. But that's life. Sometimes, you just have to keep your wands at the ready.

However, I avoid it as much as possible by typically giving each wand a partnering crossbow. (no need to pallette swap to tag) Anyway, I still permanently use 2 slots for Twin Gunnies. 2 for both lasting ammo and also to have up to 2 different elements ready at any time. In a group, I still tend to use Twin MayaLee because with strafing, it's still way too easy to defense down a whole group of monsters before you'd ever get within Zalure range. Add to the fact that they also pack a good punch at the same time. The fact that they hit for the damage they do, does help alleviate the fact that they no longer get Zalure 3, like they did, before the expansion. However, I always carry a little in excess. With the exception of crossbows (2 last quite a while), I have off-pallette backups for pretty much every other weapon, to ensure I can last as long as possible without a recharge.

At one point, you'll probably work on your Zalure so you can get that up and get back your Zalure 3 the GT used to have in bullets. I tend not to use Shadoogs much with them, because they tend to be less than what you can do in guns. However, they can help tag if you decided to go in the middle and go crazy with buffs and heals for your party. They do make a great point-defense system, and tag monsters for EXP at the same time you do something else.

Still, if you take the mantra of getting your heals and buffs out of the way, fast, leaving you more time to do the attack work yourself; the Shadoog loses its advantage. Anyway, it's all about your specific game. There's quite a few ways to play a Guntecher, but you'll likely settle for a particular pattern for yours (something that clicks with you). However, whatever you choose, it's probably a complicated multi-situational tactical plan. I hardly know a lasting Guntecher, out there, that has a simple plan.

If they say they do, they normally start to explain it, and then all of a sudden these exceptions come in and they're left saying, "Um....Ok. I thought I had a simple plan."

Thing is, I planned (from day one) to base my strategies around the use of Twin Handguns. Anybody that plays with me, as a Guntecher, will note that I use them enough that people can see it's a signature weapon. However, I use almost everything else as well. I just pick the most opportune times to utilize those weapons. Yes, I carry crossbows, but I don't make them my primary weapon either. More like a secondary. I have more bullets on my Twins than anything else so my versatility and amount of situations where it's best for me to use Twin handguns, happen more often than the rest of my equipment.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-03 08:41 ]</font>

[chibiLegolas]

I know how you feel. Mobs die too quickly at times and as a gunner, you of all ppl should be able to tag stuff before they die. If you to tag more often, I find using a debuff most useful. But if you still don't want to waste your time with techs to tag, you'll just have to hold off the resta wand more often. Players tend to play more careless when they know there's a nurse in the party. And when I see ppl playing more carelessly cause my resta wand is around, I just start easing up it's useage (unless we're underleveled in that mission). The game in general isn't that difficult anymore to warrent heavy resta usage anyways. And with increased storage space with mates, and new death penalty in place, I shouldn't see any reason for a player to ask for my resta unless they're running out, or they're using a life draining ability. When I go into gunner mode, I tend to buff heal when NOT in battle. So folks can finally start using their mates during their PA's.

If AT's can be more melee oriented, then GT's can be more gunners then nurses as well. It's just another way to play the class.

[Akaimizu]

For me, because of the way monsters die so quick and people tend to run right into Tech or (not counted as silencing-able tech but are techs anyways) and get themselves in trouble, at high speed. I find myself running as fast as possible constantly, so I can be in the battle as quickly as possible. If I don't dangerously rush them, I lose out on tags. I tend to keep the good ol' confuse traps, at the ready, for those situations.

I tend to like disabling monsters, or taking them out of the battle. The issue of guns is normally the idea that you have to close a distance to hit mobs fast enough. Long ranged multi-mob hitting stuff is out of a guntecher's area with the exception of laser cannons, but you need straight lines for that. It's very very rare to get a straight approaching line. Normally, to line them up, you have to flank the entire crew. Of course, that means you have to already have gotten there already, making that tagging point moot. Guess you have to stick with missions with lots of hallway encounters.

Now if Barta didn't get tripped up by the landscape so much, and had a little more range. (heh heh) Still, it's often quite a sacrifice of able weapons and devices you really need, most of the time, to equip that spell just so you can tag. Plus it remains thin since attack spells are limited at 10.

This isn't a big problem here, but it is just some of the many considerations already taken that basically say that sometimes, you have to suck up to the fact that you wont be able to get your hits in, at times. But that's life. You can't always have that covered.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-03 09:22 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

my second highest character is a guntecher, and I don't find myself in this situation too often...maybe because I use dual handguns less, and crossbows more?

that said I can understand if you are running with a party that gets hurt often, or is looking to you for healing quite a bit. I do have one suggestion:

consider the elemental choices of dual handguns not for damage, but for status effect. One thing that tend to deal heavy damage is techs. I carry a set of earth dual handguns to shut up the casters. I also carry a set of confuse traps on my palette. You could use ice as well. This level of support may seen minor, but I have silenced 5 sageeta before they got off thier barta. does not seme like a big deal, except sageeta's barta deals 200 damage to you average melee character, and it penetrates.

[Akaimizu]

Crossbows help, but at mid range. I was talking about those situations where you got to hit enemies outside of crossbow range before they die. Things have gotten to the point where you'll deal with folks who take them all out before your crossbows can target them. In those cases, at least you might hit one or two with twin handguns before you get to Xbow range and everybody's dead.

The topic creator's concerns with healing party members, though, do help with crossbows. Those are the cases where you're in there, already, and thus the Crossbow can tag inbetween techs.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-03 09:45 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2008-01-03 09:41, Akaimizu wrote:
Crossbows help, but at mid range. I was talking about those situations where you got to hit enemies outside of crossbow range before they die. Things have gotten to the point where you'll deal with folks who take them all out before your crossbows can target them. In those cases, at least you might hit one or two with twin handguns before you get to Xbow range and everybody's dead.

The topic creator's concerns with healing party members, though, do help with crossbows. Those are the cases where you're in there, already, and thus the Crossbow can tag inbetween techs.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-03 09:45 ]</font>


actually his point was that he loves dual handguns, and there is no wand option with this weapon. *my* point was pick and element that reduces the need for heals, the saving the amount of time spent casting resta, and increasing the time spent shooting with dualies http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Akaimizu]

True enough. That does the trick. Though, some monsters are especially resistant to Dual handgun SEs, but those are generally tech casters in the toughest levels in the game. Sometimes, things just rather die before they ever take on the status effect.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-03 10:17 ]</font>

[Pandorasbox]

I have a freind who plays the guntecher class exclusively (Beast). It can be a great class in both dmg and support. As a person who was also in the same sitch a little advice: The faster you kill the less the pain is brought upon the party. It's a matter of learning balance with healing. As some said a good point to heal is at half health. Anything beyond that is tedious (unless u want to power lv ur healing). To sum it up it is a nice class. dual handguns rock and outbeat rifles in dmg iirc. Cards too are nice on a guntecher as well.

[banned_eh]

my guntecher has 90% action 10% support. I have G resta and ATT buff on my wands, all I do is use my twins constantly.

the only time I do wack out a wand is to buff people, or maybe when I'm seeing my party getting owned then I heal like once or twice (being a cast I heal like 600 so I dont bother)

its not really up to you to buff people, or heal people. they have items, noone should tell you how to play you class, just do what you want to do.

[ShineOnline]

To the OP, get giresta as the auto-heal will alleviate the need to cast resta as often.

[Akaimizu]

A little off-track, but to mention a thing about Giresta. It has a load of benefits, if you don't know this already.

1. It levels fast. And I mean FAAAST. I betcha, as a Guntecher, you're likely to feel like you went to heaven levelling that tech. Especially if you've been basically levelling Resta/Reverser and the buffs/debuffs as your main techs. And considering I know nothing else in your non-tech arsenal is anywhere in that league of speed levelling.

2. That auto-heal aspect as was mentioned.

3. Auto-heal stacking. A good pre-emptive Giresta continues to stack auto-recoverable health on top of full health. Except this health comes all at once, once they're damaged.
||
V
So in some cases, somebody might get damaged for 800+ damage, and just after the moment they got hit, they're full life...instantly. You didn't cast again, it was just there to happen after the next time damage was taken. You can experiment with the effect for the best times to utilize this hidden feature. But be warned, if they are wearing an auto-heal armor attachment, the effect doesn't work. Think of the Auto-heal armor attachment as an override for the Auto-recovery of Giresta. So the limit starts there, so you might excercise your curiosity by finding out who in your group is wearing said Auto-heal attachments so you're aware of that factor in battle.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-04 11:51 ]</font>

[ChaosAngel92]

Wow. I must say im impressed, i have been following your hints Akaimizu, as everybody hints as well. And to be honest, GT is now a job im enjoying it. Just in some cases when there is a crazy god dammed Fortefighter who bealives god and get the areas by his own. But its really enjoyable when i read all your hints and i follow them.
Thank you a lot for all the hints, really, you saved me from a crisis and forsake for once GT for focusing on FiG.
I have a question, so, do i use Giresta instead of Resta? Or is it still important to have resta on my pallete.

[Akaimizu]

I keep both. But that's just me. I noticed most other tech using jobs I've played with, keep both as well. I haven't made conclusive evidence if you should carry one over the other, but they seem to both have their uses.

[ShineOnline]

Maybe keep both. Giresta before a skirmish -> dualies to you hearts content -> resta after.

[Shadow_Wing]

You can replace Giresta for Resta but I like having resta for when giresta's effects haven't wore yet, it's more efficient for PP and as an AT, I do get the golden Resta at 31+ <<;

Also I find resta is just a bit faster than Giresta, helps in those super tight situations and I can get back to the action faster. To each their own though, I'd say just test each one out and find which one you like more, to me I have both on my pallet though XD

[ChaosAngel92]

I see, thank you for all your replies. I can level up Giresta in buffs parties right?

[Akaimizu]

You can, if you want. But I tell you one thing, Giresta levels up fast enough that you'll get it up there just in regular use, as long as you remember to use it enough.

Take note, Giresta makes a fine pre-emptive healer so you can use it a little more often during a mission. Don't machine gun it, I just mean, use it liberally. If you get in the mindset of priming people with Recovery so that they can get the immediate refill upon hit, you'll likely be casting it enough to level it at a decent rate. Also, don't forget that when you're about to reach a boss, throw in a few spams of the Giresta after the party gets their buffs.

[Shadow_Wing]

Doesn't take too long either way, no more than an hour to get to 21 I bet u that in full buff party.

[Pillan]

On 2008-01-04 12:52, ChaosAngel92 wrote:
I have a question, so, do i use Giresta instead of Resta? Or is it still important to have resta on my pallete.


Personally, I don't even carry Resta anymore. Yes, you reset the stored ticks if you recast Giresta, but if you have to recast Giresta half of your team probably isn't recovering from stored ticks anymore, so recasting it just means more ticks of 3% for another 4 minutes. And if the casting speed is a bit too slow, the worst thing that can happen is that it revives the player. (Or they waste a Scape Doll, either of which isn't a major loss. Just try not to let the latter happen too often.)

Don't worry about canceling an AT's Giresta either, since it maxes at Auto Recovery level 3 at 21+.

But, yeah, the main advantage of Resta is the lower PP cost (10 PP lower for GT/WT, 8 PP lower for fT, and 25 PP lower for AT at their respective maxes). If you find yourself running out of PP too quickly with Giresta, either carry extra Madoogs/Wands or add Resta to the pallet.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-05 14:49 ]</font>

[Limonade]

Gt isn't that bad if you lvl your dual pa high enough you may want to try fig or one of the acro classes. well i went through the same thing as a gt. i guess you just need to find what you like uf you like duals like a said one of the acro fig or fortegunner may be for you. I went form gt to pt casue i'm a bow fan and its difnaly a class i can stay for some time
and i love it it really has alot of things that

[Hrith]

On 2008-01-05 14:47, Pillan wrote:
But, yeah, the main advantage of Resta is the lower PP cost (10 PP lower for GT/WT, 8 PP lower for fT, and 25 PP lower for AT at their respective maxes). If you find yourself running out of PP too quickly with Giresta, either carry extra Madoogs/Wands or add Resta to the pallet.The main advantage of Resta is that it has twice the range of Giresta.

Giresta sucks as a healing spell, it's merely a buff.

Giresta range sucks (at least for Lv30), and in large teams or large rooms, you're more useless than anything using Giresta, and healing nothing but yourself.


HAET GIRESTA

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2008-01-06 01:59, Hrith wrote:
On 2008-01-05 14:47, Pillan wrote:
But, yeah, the main advantage of Resta is the lower PP cost (10 PP lower for GT/WT, 8 PP lower for fT, and 25 PP lower for AT at their respective maxes). If you find yourself running out of PP too quickly with Giresta, either carry extra Madoogs/Wands or add Resta to the pallet.The main advantage of Resta is that it has twice the range of Giresta.

Giresta sucks as a healing spell, it's merely a buff.

Giresta range sucks (at least for Lv30), and in large teams or large rooms, you're more useless than anything using Giresta, and healing nothing but yourself.


HAET GIRESTA



eat a trimate then, mr independent

[GreenArcher]

In before flame war.

I find Giresta all I need as a Guntecher. Our healing role for the most part is for emergencies, and most of these emergency come from the Hunters in the front lines. With a crossbow in my left hand, these players are easily within my range as I'm right there behind them.

[Pillan]

There’s not going to be a flame war. No one cares about the small differences between the two enough for that.

Anyway, has anyone else noticed a range difference? I haven’t touched Resta since the first few days of AoI, and it wasn’t noticeable to me then, but this could have changed with the rod update.

[Sychosis]

Resta is a little bigger. Not enough to outweigh the auto recovery, and convenience of having my healing TECHNIC and revival TECHNIC in one though.

I do wish they would alter the animations for Resta and Reverser to show the limits of their ranges. Reverser is surprisingly large at 31. Sometimes you take the range for granted and cast it when you're too far away thinking it should work since it hits most people in the area 99% of the time http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Hrith]

You should really check back on the range of these technics, it's especially in emergency situations that Giresta will prove useless.

And Solomon, if I'm well within Resta range and the FT/AT is not healing me, what reason do I have to keep that awful player in my team?

[CelestialBlade]

I've never had a range problem with Giresta. If the radius of Resta's AoE was "double" that of Giresta then it would heal an entire friggin room, and it obviously doesn't. The difference is near meaningless. There's just too many extra advantages with Giresta that there's hardly a reason to carry Resta around anymore.

[Shadow_Wing]

The difference between the two is trivial at best, Resta 21+ I'd say is probably around the range of 31+ Giresta, which isn't omg huge difference against Giresta 21+. I still hit everyone regardless of which I cast, both of which are now 31+ with me. I managed with Resta 11+ for 3 months, 6-10 for a month as an AT and I can tell you that both sufficed in both instances in more difficult missions with at most 4 people. So range is trash in the overall picture.

I don't really care what goes off if I happen to hit Giresta cause I'm on my madoog or Resta on my wand, they heal for a lot and hit everyone regardless of the situation. Please, twice the range of Giresta, I wish http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif. If I was in a party and you happen to be outside my healing range as an AT, it's either u've just been knocked out of the battlefield or soloing a room; needless to say, either suffices as a healing spell.

As actual experience though, if I deplete my Resta wand, which happens more often than not, and switch to my Giresta Coni, I see little to no difference in my ability to heal.

The only real reason to really stick with Resta, besides preference, is getting it to 31+, golden Resta owns <<;

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shadow_Wing on 2008-01-07 00:47 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

I carry both. The main advantage that I see is that Resta seems to be a faster solution when casting in the middle of combat. Since I do act a lot as a combat medic as well (which requires you to put yourself dangerously in the action, especially since I still haven't gotten my stuff to 21+) that tiny bit of less time to cast helps greatly. There are times I still use Giresta in there, particularly when the Resta wand runs low, but I use Giresta mostly as a preemptive healing agent and to maintain the Autorecovery.

Then again, my support Guntecher build has enough wands paired with either crossbows or a TCSM, to cover Buffs, the appropriate debuff, both health recovery techs, and reverser. On missions where there's a very low chance of status effects on the party, I may be able to eschew the reverser for an attack tech or another debuff to level.

(Of course, if ST ever puts in the holy grail of all debuffs (Tech/MST down), that's so going in my pallette on all those wizard missions.) Or should I call them the wwwizardd? (ATHF reference)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-07 07:00 ]</font>