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Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 01:42 AM
My speculation on Master Classes:

Currently, we have 4 categories to place classes:
- Basic (HU, RA, FO)
- Hybrid (FG, WT, GT)
- Specialized (PT, AT, AF)
- Forte (fF, fG, fT)

Above I used the SEGA shorthands, so note that FG i Figunner and fG is Fortegunner



Each of the four categories above have their reasonings to exist.:
- Basic, the precursor to all other classes and meant to give new players a taste of the game.
- Hybrid, these classes give players the ability to play two roles at once while sacrificing performance in each realm.
- Specialized, these classes are unique to their own roles of trap warfare, fast attacks and supportive techniques.
- Forte, the best classes at the jobs of hunter, ranger and force.

With the above known, what would be the point of the master classes? There still lacks any one class that gives the player the ability to use all S ranks of one play style (ie.: No class has access to S rank Double Sabers and Axes, or S rank Rifles and Crossbows.)



This is how I see Master classes:

- Each master class has full S rank access to all weapons of its realm, this gives the player the ability to use all Hunter S ranks together in one class, all ranger S ranks in one class, or all Tech S ranks in one class.

- To balance out the above, the Master class would lack something that the original Expert classes have (ie.: Master classes would have lower Stats, lower PA caps, no PP-regen boost, no speed boost, etc)

- Master Classes would be seen as luxury class, not a performance class. Giving the ability for a player to play anyway they want but at a lower power-output.Perfect for those who say play how you want to play

- Requirements for Master Classes would consist of current expert classes.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leahcim on 2008-01-02 22:45 ]</font>

CelestialBlade
Jan 3, 2008, 01:48 AM
So basically, a Protranser with a shuffled weapon selection.

I dunno, still kinda unnecessary, but I do like it a hell of a lot more than three classes that obsolete everything else.

Chuck_Norris
Jan 3, 2008, 01:50 AM
On 2008-01-02 22:42, Leahcim wrote:
This is how I see Master classes:

- Each master class has full S rank access to all weapons of its realm, this gives the player the ability to use all Hunter S ranks together in one class, all ranger S ranks in one class, or all Tech S ranks in one class.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leahcim on 2008-01-02 22:45 ]</font>


Sounds good.


On 2008-01-02 22:42, Leahcim wrote:

lower PA caps,

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leahcim on 2008-01-02 22:45 ]</font>


NO! Master classes are suppost to be the Masters of that type. You can't lower their PA caps. they're probably gonna be the only classes with level 50 PA's anyway.

Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 01:52 AM
Summarization:

FighMaster
- Access to all Melee at S rank, accept Whips
- lvl 30 Melee PA cap
- All around stats averaged between Fortefighter and Figunner
- No Speed Boost, PP Regen, or any other A rank Weapons
- Requirement lvl 15 Fortefighter and Figunner

GunMaster
- Access to all Ranged at S rank, Accept Cards and Bows
- lvl 30 Ranged PA cap
- All around stats averaged between Fortegunner and Guntecher
- No Speed Boost, PP Regen, or any other A rank Weapons
- Requirement lvl 15 ForteGunner and Guntecher


MasterForce
- Access to all Tech at S rank, Including Whips, Cards and Bows
- lvl 30 Tech PA cap (support and attack), lvl 20 ranged and melee PA cap
- All around stats averaged between Fortetecher and Wartecher
- No Speed Boost, PP Regen, or any other A rank Weapons
- Requirement lvl 15 ForteTecher and Wartecher

Chuck_Norris
Jan 3, 2008, 01:54 AM
level 30 PA's? lolno.

And why's Masterforce have level 20 bullets?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chuck_Norris on 2008-01-02 22:58 ]</font>

RACast_Raiden
Jan 3, 2008, 01:57 AM
they get weaker?!

WTH

Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 01:58 AM
Make a class Stronger than everything else? Making everything else obsolete?

lolno.


Anyway, please, useful points

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leahcim on 2008-01-02 22:59 ]</font>

Chuck_Norris
Jan 3, 2008, 01:59 AM
On 2008-01-02 22:58, Leahcim wrote:
Stronger than everything else? Making everything else obsolete



What's wrong with that? : P

RedMussel
Jan 3, 2008, 02:00 AM
- Master Classes would be seen as luxury class, not a performance class. Giving the ability for a player to play anyway they want but at a lower power-output.Perfect for those who say play how you want to play
I thought there would be a reason for it to be called master, as in MASTER of whatever it is so why would it have flaws. And beside you are describing Protranser basically. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Shishi-O
Jan 3, 2008, 02:02 AM
master ech dein ubermech classen

it might be three master classes, but they give a huge amount of leeway for those who want to have a custom character besides, the limits of the current classes.

i don't know about u, but i know too many people that don't like being restricted by a certain s-wep/ class restriction.

i wanna use what weapons for what class i wanna use em for.

Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 02:02 AM
On 2008-01-02 22:59, Chuck_Norris wrote:

On 2008-01-02 22:58, Leahcim wrote:
Stronger than everything else? Making everything else obsolete



What's wrong with that? : P



Ab...solute...ly Everything.

Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 02:04 AM
On 2008-01-02 23:02, Shishi-O wrote:

i don't know about u, but i know too many people that don't like being restricted by a certain s-wep/ class restriction.

i wanna use what weapons for what class i wanna use em for.



And this Is what I believe the whole point of Master Classes will be.

The lower stats I propose are simply for balance.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leahcim on 2008-01-02 23:05 ]</font>

Chuck_Norris
Jan 3, 2008, 02:06 AM
On 2008-01-02 23:02, Leahcim wrote:

On 2008-01-02 22:59, Chuck_Norris wrote:

On 2008-01-02 22:58, Leahcim wrote:
Stronger than everything else? Making everything else obsolete



What's wrong with that? : P



Ab...solute...ly Everything.



G...ib lo...gic. If they slap a name like "Master" onto a class, it has to be some uber game breaking class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chuck_Norris on 2008-01-02 23:08 ]</font>

Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 02:09 AM
On 2008-01-02 23:06, Chuck_Norris wrote:

On 2008-01-02 23:02, Leahcim wrote:

On 2008-01-02 22:59, Chuck_Norris wrote:

On 2008-01-02 22:58, Leahcim wrote:
Stronger than everything else? Making everything else obsolete



What's wrong with that? : P



Ab...solute...ly Everything.



G...ib lo...gic. If they slap a name like "Master" onto a class, it has to be some uber game breaking class.



Um, knowing Sega's Translators they could have given it a more prestigious name than intended.

RedMussel
Jan 3, 2008, 02:10 AM
On 2008-01-02 23:06, Chuck_Norris wrote:

On 2008-01-02 23:02, Leahcim wrote:

On 2008-01-02 22:59, Chuck_Norris wrote:

On 2008-01-02 22:58, Leahcim wrote:
Stronger than everything else? Making everything else obsolete



What's wrong with that? : P



Ab...solute...ly Everything.



G...ib lo...gic. If they slap a name like "Master" onto a class, it has to be some uber game breaking class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chuck_Norris on 2008-01-02 23:08 ]</font>
Ex...act..ly

Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 02:11 AM
Lol! Lets make a game that's great for its customization just to make a class that there's no point to be anything but! HURHUR HUR BIG NUMBARS

/Facepalm

Genoa
Jan 3, 2008, 02:16 AM
I really hate the idea of these Master Classes... the more I hear about them... I just have these visions of people doing nothing but striving for master classes and the obsession of progression.
Progression is the disease in all MMORPG's... nobody is content with what's they have now or what level they are now... it's always "I MUST HUNT DOWN THIS, or I MUST POWER LEVEL!!!"
When is the last time you've done a few missions just because they're badass?

Wow, I went off topic a bit <_>

On Topic: They better gimp the hell out of those master classes somehow to make them suitable in competition to the Forte's and other hybrids... because the whole idea sounds like it's trying to make the game fall into only 4 super-classes now... I prefer the 9 experts we already have =/

galaxy
Jan 3, 2008, 02:52 AM
this is my speculation of what the masterclasses will turn into:

essentially, they are supreme specialization. they will be the BEST at their playstyle, and just that. some stats will be higher and some will be lower than their forte counterparts. for example, fortetecher and masterforce: masterforce will have higher TP and MST, but lower everything else (except maybe eva). lower HP, lower ATA, lower DEF...pretty much geared for tech use specifically and thats it (no ranged).

fortefighter and fighmaster: fighmaster will have higher HP, ATP, and DEF, but lower everything else.
fortegunner and gunmaster: gunmaster will have higher ATA and EVA, and lower everything else.

does this make sense? like a super specialization. so they aren't game breaking, but still unique....

Genoa
Jan 3, 2008, 02:57 AM
So it's... More weapon selection (or at least S-rank-wise...) and very, Very specialized statistics...
Well I could see that perhaps working out...
I wonder how Protranser will even stay remotely near the competition when these get released =/ ... More statistical bonus'? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

BluCast20xx
Jan 3, 2008, 02:59 AM
either they upgrade the protranser with lv 40 skills and bullets....or create a "Acromaster" or "Trapmaster" master class or something.

Squid_Gogglez
Jan 3, 2008, 03:03 AM
On 2008-01-02 22:57, RACast_Raiden wrote:
they get weaker?!

WTH

As i see it,probably the MST/TP boost
may very well compensate for their PA levels???
Just a thought.

unicorn
Jan 3, 2008, 03:05 AM
I like my advanced classes.

I feel that the Master classes should be just that, masters of their class type. They should be completely restricted to their class. They should also be on par with all the other classes. Their stats should mimic those of Protranser. Racial differences (like in Protranser) would be very minimized.

My ideas:

Fighmaster:
50/10/0/0
S-rank: Axe, Sword, Double Saber, Saber, Twin Saber, Dagger, Twin Dagger, Claw, Twin Claw, Spear, Knuckles, Shadoog
A-rank: Handgun, Twin Handgun

Gunmaster:
10/50/0/0
S-rank: Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Laser Cannon, Shotgun, Machine Gun, Crossbow, Handgun, Twin Handgun
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Spear

Masterforce:
20/10/50/50
S-rank: Rod, Wand, Madoog, Bow, Card, Whip
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Handgun, Machinegun, Spear

Acromaster:
20/20/20/20
S-rank: Slicer, Whip, Saber, Dagger, Claw, Wand, Card, Handgun, Shadoog, Madoog
A-rank: Twin Handgun, Twin Saber, Twin Dagger, Twin Claw, Knuckles, Machinegun



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: super_luu on 2008-01-03 00:12 ]</font>

Chuck_Norris
Jan 3, 2008, 03:13 AM
On 2008-01-03 00:05, super_luu wrote:
I like my advanced classes.

I feel that the Master classes should be just that, masters of their class type. They should be completely restricted to their class, no hybridations whatsoever. They should also be on par with all the other classes. Their stats should mimic those of Protranser. Racial differences (like in Protranser) would be very minimized.

My ideas:

Fighmaster:
50/10/0/0
S-rank: Axe, Sword, Double Saber, Saber, Twin Saber, Dagger, Twin Dagger, Claw, Twin Claw, Spear, Knuckles, Shadoog
A-rank: Handgun, Twin Handgun

Gunmaster:
10/50/0/0
S-rank: Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Laser Cannon, Shotgun, Machine Gun, Crossbow, Handgun, Twin Handgun
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Spear

Masterforce:
20/10/50/50
S-rank: Rod, Wand, Madoog, Bow, Card, Whip
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Handgun, Machinegun, Spear

Acromaster:
20/20/20/20
S-rank: Slicer, Whip, Saber, Dagger, Claw, Wand, Card, Handgun, Shadoog, Madoog
A-rank: Twin Handgun, Twin Saber, Twin Dagger, Twin Claw, Knuckles, Machinegun



Alright, THIS looks like a good idea. Give them 50 in their PA's yet make them gimp in everything else. I think we can all agree on this.

ChaosAngel92
Jan 3, 2008, 03:23 AM
On 2008-01-03 00:05, super_luu wrote:

Gunmaster:
10/50/0/0
S-rank: Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Laser Cannon, Shotgun, Machine Gun, Crossbow, Handgun, Twin Handgun
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Spear



I really hope God hear ya with this S rank twin handgun thing.

Rainu
Jan 3, 2008, 03:27 AM
Dear god, I sure hope Acromaster doesn't end up like that. 20 PA's in everything? Yuck.

unicorn
Jan 3, 2008, 03:44 AM
From what I have set up, it does seem like Acromaster would get the shaft in all areas. However, it would also have access to every single area. Perhaps they could give them some sort of specialized play style (quick casting and quick melee, access to most traps). Perhaps even giving Acromasters stats that rival the other Masters but lower PA skills?

Example: Acrotecher and Fortetecher.

Acrotecher has slightly less TP than Fortetecher (practically a 100 TP difference) but only has access to LV 30 Attack techs, compared to Fortetecher's 40 Attack techs.

---

My view is: Acromaster would be the "Master" of all forms of Hybrid. Yet, Fighgunner would still be better with Range/Melee, but Acromaster can also Wartech and Guntech. Guntecher will still be better at Range/Support Teching, but Acromaster can rely on its Melee and Attack Techs if it has to. Wartecher will still be better with Melee and Attack techs, but Acromaster still has more Range than a Wartecher.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: super_luu on 2008-01-03 00:47 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: super_luu on 2008-01-03 00:49 ]</font>

AxelgearVII
Jan 3, 2008, 03:48 AM
On 2008-01-03 00:05, super_luu wrote:
I like my advanced classes.

I feel that the Master classes should be just that, masters of their class type. They should be completely restricted to their class. They should also be on par with all the other classes. Their stats should mimic those of Protranser. Racial differences (like in Protranser) would be very minimized.

My ideas:

Fighmaster:
50/10/0/0
S-rank: Axe, Sword, Double Saber, Saber, Twin Saber, Dagger, Twin Dagger, Claw, Twin Claw, Spear, Knuckles, Shadoog
A-rank: Handgun, Twin Handgun

Gunmaster:
10/50/0/0
S-rank: Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Laser Cannon, Shotgun, Machine Gun, Crossbow, Handgun, Twin Handgun
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Spear

Masterforce:
20/10/50/50
S-rank: Rod, Wand, Madoog, Bow, Card, Whip
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Handgun, Machinegun, Spear

Acromaster:
20/20/20/20
S-rank: Slicer, Whip, Saber, Dagger, Claw, Wand, Card, Handgun, Shadoog, Madoog
A-rank: Twin Handgun, Twin Saber, Twin Dagger, Twin Claw, Knuckles, Machinegun



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: super_luu on 2008-01-03 00:12 ]</font>


lol, by this model, whips would STILL never see their maximum potential.

RACast_Raiden
Jan 3, 2008, 04:14 AM
On 2008-01-03 00:13, Chuck_Norris wrote:

On 2008-01-03 00:05, super_luu wrote:
I like my advanced classes.

I feel that the Master classes should be just that, masters of their class type. They should be completely restricted to their class, no hybridations whatsoever. They should also be on par with all the other classes. Their stats should mimic those of Protranser. Racial differences (like in Protranser) would be very minimized.

My ideas:

Fighmaster:
50/10/0/0
S-rank: Axe, Sword, Double Saber, Saber, Twin Saber, Dagger, Twin Dagger, Claw, Twin Claw, Spear, Knuckles, Shadoog
A-rank: Handgun, Twin Handgun

Gunmaster:
10/50/0/0
S-rank: Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Laser Cannon, Shotgun, Machine Gun, Crossbow, Handgun, Twin Handgun
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Spear

Masterforce:
20/10/50/50
S-rank: Rod, Wand, Madoog, Bow, Card, Whip
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Handgun, Machinegun, Spear

Acromaster:
20/20/20/20
S-rank: Slicer, Whip, Saber, Dagger, Claw, Wand, Card, Handgun, Shadoog, Madoog
A-rank: Twin Handgun, Twin Saber, Twin Dagger, Twin Claw, Knuckles, Machinegun



Alright, THIS looks like a good idea. Give them 50 in their PA's yet make them gimp in everything else. I think we can all agree on this.


yes this is more like it...
i don't quite agree with the "acromaster" though

Indica
Jan 3, 2008, 04:42 AM
It will really look like this

Masterforce:
40 Bullets/30 Skill/50/50
S-rank: Rod, Wand, Madoog, Bow, Card, Whip
S-rank: Saber, Dagger, Handgun, Machinegun, Spear

RRBM
Jan 3, 2008, 06:53 AM
On 2008-01-02 22:58, Leahcim wrote:
Make a class Stronger than everything else? Making everything else obsolete?

lolno.


Anyway, please, useful points

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leahcim on 2008-01-02 22:59 ]</font>


Umm have you forgotten that Hunters/Rangers/Forces were made obsolete by their respective forte classes? The way I see it is that the master classes will do the same thing to the forte classes.

amtalx
Jan 3, 2008, 07:58 AM
People don't want the master classes to render previous classes obsolete because it would reduce the number of viable classes. When we had HU/RA/FO and fG/fF/fT/FG/GT/WT/PT were added, we wend from 3->7 classes. That's a good thing. Variety is rarely bad. The forte classes are pretty much the same as the basic classes, so we didn't really loose a step anyway.

If the master classes make the advanced classes obsolete, we will be going from 7->4. Bad. Who knows though, maybe ST will get crafty and make more than 4 master classes... Anyway, it would reduce the number of viable class choices if the master classes are significantly better. I'm not a big fan. This game is easy enough without superclasses.

CAVAOUBIEN
Jan 3, 2008, 09:15 AM
Perhaps Master classes will also require a minimum level to get access to them, along with a maxed out job level. This would be similar to the level requirements giving access to the new PMs (yet to be released).

Establishing lvl 100 (or above) as a minimum level to become a Master of something would probabley make everyone happy, since other classes would not be made obsolete in the process. It's a progression path as opposed to classes overlapping each other.

By the time you reach level 100 (or whatever minimum requirement), chances are that your character will have its job(s) maxed out at 20 anyway, making access to the Master classes as a character goal. An extra incentive to push your character to the upper levels if you like and become the best at a certain game style (fighter, gunner, techer, and hybrid).

With this in mind, it becomes perfectly acceptable to get access to higher PA levels (50) and also get access to a wider range of S-weapons for each class without threatening the other classes.

It seems that whichever way of introducing Master classes without level requirements, would make every other class redundant or confusing for players (hence all these heated debates).

my two cents...

AlphaDragoon
Jan 3, 2008, 09:52 AM
So...there are people in here who actually WANT everyone in the game to only be one of three classes? >.>

Master types should be as someone above me said good at their namesake but SUPER GIMPED at everything else. Otherwise that's exactly what'll happen, people going (and note how long this sentence is) "lulz those Fighgunner/Fortefighter/Guntecher/Wartecher/Fortegunner/Fortetecher/Protranser/Acrofighter/Acrotechers are teh suxorz, we have Master classes".

chu-chu-chu
Jan 3, 2008, 10:12 AM
LOL@PANIC

Let's suppose (since this is all mere speculation):

If a Mastergunner can srank all guns, but only has level one skills and no techs, it will have some definite disadvantages compared to fortegunners, fighgunners, and guntechers.

If a fighmaster can srank all melee weapons, but has level 1 bullets and no techs, it will have disadvantages compared to fortefighter, fighgunner, wartecher, and acrofighter.

If a Masterforce can srank all tech, but has level 1 bullets and no melee, it will have disadvantages compared to fortetecher, guntecher, wartecher, and acotecher.

And protransers should have level 40 skills, yeah.

CAVAOUBIEN
Jan 3, 2008, 10:39 AM
Alpha, your argument is moot if you have a minimum level requirement on the Master classes. Why would you make fun of a class when it is an intermediate class. I mean, do you make fun of Hunter, Ranger and Force classes? No, like everyone, you consider them as a step towards a better class giving you access to different (more fun, more powerful) game styles. You don't bitch against the forte classes because they just made the Hunter, Ranger and Force classes obsolete.

But to answer your question,yes: I am indeed longing for a class which allows me to play the game style of my characters without some of the current compromises connected to the forte or hybrid classes.

Judging by the countless threads on some of the "mysterious" limitations to the forte classes or some hybrid classes, I am not the only one.

Again, I don't see a problem with this if it introduces a logical progression path for my character(s) wich I can access providing I have a certain character level and whatever job level required. On the other hand, introducing a super gimped 'Master" class makes no sense whatsoever to me I'm afraid.

panzer_unit
Jan 3, 2008, 10:46 AM
On 2008-01-03 04:58, amtalx wrote:
People don't want the master classes to render previous classes obsolete because it would reduce the number of viable classes. When we had HU/RA/FO and fG/fF/fT/FG/GT/WT/PT were added, we wend from 3->7 classes. That's a good thing. Variety is rarely bad. The forte classes are pretty much the same as the basic classes, so we didn't really loose a step anyway.

If the master classes make the advanced classes obsolete, we will be going from 7->4. Bad. Who knows though, maybe ST will get crafty and make more than 4 master classes... Anyway, it would reduce the number of viable class choices if the master classes are significantly better. I'm not a big fan. This game is easy enough without superclasses.


I don't buy that logic. If you can move your character as-is to a Master job and only GAIN possible character setup options... there's nothing lost when you go from 7 classes to 4. Jobs right now are about forcing players to choose tradeoffs, IMO ST should throw it wide open and let folks make their own just off of the 36PA limit and what works well for their race/sex stat modifiers.

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 10:49 AM
On 2008-01-03 07:46, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2008-01-03 04:58, amtalx wrote:
People don't want the master classes to render previous classes obsolete because it would reduce the number of viable classes. When we had HU/RA/FO and fG/fF/fT/FG/GT/WT/PT were added, we wend from 3->7 classes. That's a good thing. Variety is rarely bad. The forte classes are pretty much the same as the basic classes, so we didn't really loose a step anyway.

If the master classes make the advanced classes obsolete, we will be going from 7->4. Bad. Who knows though, maybe ST will get crafty and make more than 4 master classes... Anyway, it would reduce the number of viable class choices if the master classes are significantly better. I'm not a big fan. This game is easy enough without superclasses.


I don't buy that logic. If you can move your character as-is to a Master job and only GAIN possible character setup options... there's nothing lost when you go from 7 classes to 4. Jobs right now are about forcing players to choose tradeoffs, IMO ST should throw it wide open and let folks make their own just off of the 36PA limit and what works well for their race/sex stat modifiers.



Totally agree

Golto
Jan 3, 2008, 10:53 AM
All the lame GT and WT just needs to get over the fact that master types will be out. It won't narrow the choices of character types because we already have 80%+ of the population just 4 or 5 types.

amtalx
Jan 3, 2008, 11:13 AM
On 2008-01-03 07:49, GuardianElite wrote:

On 2008-01-03 07:46, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2008-01-03 04:58, amtalx wrote:
People don't want the master classes to render previous classes obsolete because it would reduce the number of viable classes. When we had HU/RA/FO and fG/fF/fT/FG/GT/WT/PT were added, we wend from 3->7 classes. That's a good thing. Variety is rarely bad. The forte classes are pretty much the same as the basic classes, so we didn't really loose a step anyway.

If the master classes make the advanced classes obsolete, we will be going from 7->4. Bad. Who knows though, maybe ST will get crafty and make more than 4 master classes... Anyway, it would reduce the number of viable class choices if the master classes are significantly better. I'm not a big fan. This game is easy enough without superclasses.


I don't buy that logic. If you can move your character as-is to a Master job and only GAIN possible character setup options... there's nothing lost when you go from 7 classes to 4. Jobs right now are about forcing players to choose tradeoffs, IMO ST should throw it wide open and let folks make their own just off of the 36PA limit and what works well for their race/sex stat modifiers.



Totally agree



I beg to differ. Using your logic, everything would be cured by having a single class that can use all weapons at S-Rank. Then we could play how we want right? If you want to be a ranger, fill your palette with guns. Feel like dropping some technic bombs? Equip force weapons. Everyone would just have a "custom class" determined by their PA list.

Trade-offs are the entire point of a class system. You can't, and shouldn't, be good at everything. Why bother expanding the viable classes to 7, only to reduce it back to 4? It doesn't make sense. Hopefully, ST will find a place for the master classes to fit among the existing classes, instead of just overwriting them.

As a side note, games without robust class systems exist, and some work well (Oblivion as an example). However, removing those "class lines" wouldn't work for PSU since it was specifically designed with a class system in mind.

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 11:20 AM
On 2008-01-03 08:13, amtalx wrote:

On 2008-01-03 07:49, GuardianElite wrote:

On 2008-01-03 07:46, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2008-01-03 04:58, amtalx wrote:
People don't want the master classes to render previous classes obsolete because it would reduce the number of viable classes. When we had HU/RA/FO and fG/fF/fT/FG/GT/WT/PT were added, we wend from 3->7 classes. That's a good thing. Variety is rarely bad. The forte classes are pretty much the same as the basic classes, so we didn't really loose a step anyway.

If the master classes make the advanced classes obsolete, we will be going from 7->4. Bad. Who knows though, maybe ST will get crafty and make more than 4 master classes... Anyway, it would reduce the number of viable class choices if the master classes are significantly better. I'm not a big fan. This game is easy enough without superclasses.


I don't buy that logic. If you can move your character as-is to a Master job and only GAIN possible character setup options... there's nothing lost when you go from 7 classes to 4. Jobs right now are about forcing players to choose tradeoffs, IMO ST should throw it wide open and let folks make their own just off of the 36PA limit and what works well for their race/sex stat modifiers.



Totally agree



I beg to differ. Using your logic, everything would be cured by having a single class that can use all weapons at S-Rank. Then we could play how we want right? If you want to be a ranger, fill your palette with guns. Feel like dropping some technic bombs? Equip force weapons. Everyone would just have a "custom class" determined by their PA list.

Trade-offs are the entire point of a class system. You can't, and shouldn't, be good at everything. Why bother expanding the viable classes to 7, only to reduce it back to 4? It doesn't make sense. Hopefully, ST will find a place for the master classes to fit among the existing classes, instead of just overwriting them.

As a side note, games without robust class systems exist, and some work well (Oblivion as an example). However, removing those "class lines" wouldn't work for PSU since it was specifically designed with a class system in mind.


Some people need to get over it and get a life than argueing about a video game. No matter what you say gonna change the fact that master classes going to be implemented. Not like going take yr hybrids away so stick with it.. nuff said

Poncho_Jr
Jan 3, 2008, 11:23 AM
On 2008-01-03 00:05, super_luu wrote:
I like my advanced classes.

I feel that the Master classes should be just that, masters of their class type. They should be completely restricted to their class. They should also be on par with all the other classes. Their stats should mimic those of Protranser. Racial differences (like in Protranser) would be very minimized.

My ideas:

Fighmaster:
50/10/0/0
S-rank: Axe, Sword, Double Saber, Saber, Twin Saber, Dagger, Twin Dagger, Claw, Twin Claw, Spear, Knuckles, Shadoog
A-rank: Handgun, Twin Handgun

Gunmaster:
10/50/0/0
S-rank: Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Laser Cannon, Shotgun, Machine Gun, Crossbow, Handgun, Twin Handgun
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Spear, Shadoog

Masterforce:
10/20/50/50
S-rank: Rod, Wand, Madoog, Bow, Card, Whip
A-rank: Saber, Dagger, Handgun, Machinegun, Spear, Shadoog

Acromaster:
20/20/20/20
S-rank: Slicer, Whip, Saber, Dagger, Claw, Wand, Card, Handgun, Shadoog, Madoog
A-rank: Twin Handgun, Twin Saber, Twin Dagger, Twin Claw, Knuckles, Machinegun



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: super_luu on 2008-01-03 00:12 ]</font>




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Poncho_Jr on 2008-01-03 08:26 ]</font>

panzer_unit
Jan 3, 2008, 11:47 AM
On 2008-01-03 08:13, amtalx wrote:
I beg to differ. Using your logic, everything would be cured by having a single class that can use all weapons at S-Rank. Then we could play how we want right? If you want to be a ranger, fill your palette with guns. Feel like dropping some technic bombs? Equip force weapons. Everyone would just have a "custom class" determined by their PA list.

Trade-offs are the entire point of a class system. You can't, and shouldn't, be good at everything. Why bother expanding the viable classes to 7, only to reduce it back to 4? It doesn't make sense.

What if ST's opinion is that 7 jobs is unreasonably restrictive. I keep having to change off of Protranser to Fortegunner or Fortefighter on teams... either my lack of attack techs means that I need access to rifles and Killer Shot, or the fact that I'm filling a specific role for the group means that I'm just stuck with the crap side of PT with weaker stats and no PP savings. That arrangement of jobs isn't diversity, it's inconvenience.

Solo, you want versatility. On a team, you want maximum power for a small selection of weapons that you'll cover while your teammates do other stuff. If you could NEVER change your Expert class after the initial pick, those would be "balanced" options where you choose frustration and weakness in one situation or the other.

Fortunately PSU isn't like that, but there's still the annoyance of taking time to hit 5th floor Clyez and then rummaging through my PM for a couple skills and gear every time my team goes from 3 people to 4 and I want to stay 100% productive. Oh and I'll forget to re-equip my armor. What makes sense IMO is getting rid of the jobs that trade off between power and versatility on the same role (fighter, gunner, techer, I guess you could throw acro in there though wtf is "acro" really?) ... there's nothing gained by having that division, given that we can switch between them at any time.

... and that's what I hope Master classes are, fF+WT+FG, fG+GT+PT, fT+WT+GT. If you want to go from melee to tech, that's a job change. If you want to go from gunning solo to gunning on a team, you don't.

amtalx
Jan 3, 2008, 11:49 AM
On 2008-01-03 08:20, GuardianElite wrote:



*rawr text block monster*


Some people need to get over it and get a life than argueing about a video game. No matter what you say gonna change the fact that master classes going to be implemented. Not like going take yr hybrids away so stick with it.. nuff said



You are saying that on a forum dedicated to a mostly insignificant game with a relatively dedicated following? Are you lost?

Anyway, I have no problem with master classes being added. It's how they are implemented that we are discussing. It's all speculation at this point anyway. We have no idea if they are intended to add to the existing classes or replace them.

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 11:58 AM
You guys do realize that Fighmaster doesn't even have all S ranks on the PSP version, so it's very doubtful that any of the master classes will have more S ranks than Fortefighter as their online equivalents.

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 11:59 AM
On 2008-01-03 08:49, amtalx wrote:

On 2008-01-03 08:20, GuardianElite wrote:



*rawr text block monster*


Some people need to get over it and get a life than argueing about a video game. No matter what you say gonna change the fact that master classes going to be implemented. Not like going take yr hybrids away so stick with it.. nuff said



You are saying that on a forum dedicated to a mostly insignificant game with a relatively dedicated following? Are you lost?

Anyway, I have no problem with master classes being added. It's how they are implemented that we are discussing. It's all speculation at this point anyway. We have no idea if they are intended to add to the existing classes or replace them.


4 Character slots+ 4 Races+ 4 master classes= you do the math

amtalx
Jan 3, 2008, 12:00 PM
On 2008-01-03 08:58, Pillan wrote:
You guys do realize that Fighmaster doesn't even have all S ranks on the PSP version, so it's very doubtful that any of the master classes will have more S ranks than Fortefighter as their online equivalents.


! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif ! Wait...that's out?

Shiro_Ryuu
Jan 3, 2008, 12:10 PM
On 2008-01-03 04:58, amtalx wrote:
People don't want the master classes to render previous classes obsolete because it would reduce the number of viable classes. When we had HU/RA/FO and fG/fF/fT/FG/GT/WT/PT were added, we wend from 3->7 classes. That's a good thing. Variety is rarely bad. The forte classes are pretty much the same as the basic classes, so we didn't really loose a step anyway.

If the master classes make the advanced classes obsolete, we will be going from 7->4. Bad. Who knows though, maybe ST will get crafty and make more than 4 master classes... Anyway, it would reduce the number of viable class choices if the master classes are significantly better. I'm not a big fan. This game is easy enough without superclasses.

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 12:23 PM
On 2008-01-03 09:00, amtalx wrote:
! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif ! Wait...that's out?


No. But the information has been known for a while. It's up on PSUpedia. Basically it's Fortefighter minus S claws and twin claws and plus S double sabers and slicers, and A shadoogs, machineguns, and madoogs (in otherwords, an expert version of HU). I expect it to have less S ranks and no tech access in its online equivalent.

I'm hoping they set up the S ranks for the master classes so there are no more class-exclusive S ranks though. Such as Fighmaster getting S double sabers, Gunmaster getting S twin handguns and crossbows, and Acromaster getting S machineguns, slicers, and whips.

And I expect the Master classes to have the same PA limitations as their Forte-equivalents, aside from Acromaster, which I expect to have 30 in everything.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 09:24 ]</font>

panzer_unit
Jan 3, 2008, 12:27 PM
Here's my rough guess... funny they don't look too different from offline jobs.

Fighmaster
40/30/30/20 skills
S-rank all melee (minus whip) + wands
A-rank handgun, crossbow, mechgun, card, twin handgun, bow, whip, shadoog, madoog
Skill Save
Best stats of fF, FG, WT

Gunmaster
30/40/20/30 skills
S-rank all range (minus card, shadoog) + axe, sword, spear, knuckle, saber
A-rank whips, daggers, wands, shadoog, madoog
all traps (incl EX)
trap vision
Bullet Save
Best stats of fG, PT, GT

Masterforce
30/40/40/30
S-rank rod, wand, bow, handgun, mechgun, crossbow, card, dagger, twin dagger, knuckle, twin claw
A-rank shadoog, madoog, whip, sword, twin saber, spear, claw, saber, shotgun, laser, rifle
Tech Save
Best stats of fT, GT, WT

Golto
Jan 3, 2008, 12:44 PM
You're smoking crack if you think AOI's master types will have the same weapon selection as the PSP's.

CAVAOUBIEN
Jan 3, 2008, 12:48 PM
The game provides data for up to level 50 skills. These have not been introduced yet. Don't you think that if it's there, it will be introduced at some point or another? Seems like the master classes would be a good option, and again, provide a path of progress for your character.

I don't really see why the PSP data would be that much of an insight on what will happen in on-line PSU. They are different games after all. The PSP version seems to be a simplified version of PSU, meant to be played off-line exclusively...

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 12:57 PM
On 2008-01-03 09:48, CAVAOUBIEN wrote:
The game provides data for up to level 50 skills. These have not been introduced yet. Don't you think that if it's there, it will be introduced at some point or another? Seems like the master classes would be a good option, and again, provide a path of progress for your character.


There's also the option that they just add +10 to all PA caps to every class one year from AoI's release, like they did 2 months ago. There's nothing to even hint that the Master classes will get higher PAs than anything else.


On 2008-01-03 09:48, CAVAOUBIEN wrote:
I don't really see why the PSP data would be that much of an insight on what will happen in on-line PSU. They are different games after all. The PSP version seems to be a simplified version of PSU, meant to be played off-line exclusively...



On 2008-01-03 09:44, Golto wrote:
You're smoking crack if you think AOI's master types will have the same weapon selection as the PSP's.


To answer both at once: what data can you provide to hint that there will be vast differences? I mean, obviously you can say it will be vastly different from the offline HU, RA, and FO on the current version since they’re the only classes. But we are aware that the offline PSP version mimics the online versions to some extent by limiting HU, RA, and FO to B rank weapons and requiring the players to level those up in order to gain advance classes. So far the only major clue that there will be a difference that I’d assume so far is tech access to non-force classes.

And there’s also the fact that I have some basis for my theories rather than just pulling ideas out of thin air, which does generally increase plausibility.

If you want to say they'll be weaker than their PSP equivalents, we can all agree there. But to just throw out the only real hint we currently have is, well, the opposite of what any analyst would do.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 10:26 ]</font>

Nai_Calus
Jan 3, 2008, 01:25 PM
I want classes that come and obsolete the current ones. All I want is S-rank spears, sabers, twin sabers and daggers on the same class, with A-rank crossbows and twin handguns. :<

That said:

Fighmaster:

Requirements: L130, FF 20, FI 20, WT 20.
Stats: Similar to FF with better ATA and TP
PAs: Level 50 skills, level 40 bullets, level 10 attack techs, level 30 support techs.
Weapons: S-rank: All melee weapons. A-rank: Crossbow, Bow, Twin Handgun, Handgun, Mechgun, Shadoog, Card, Wand, Madoog. (Possibly S-rank Crossbow and Twin Handgun, but that's just me being greedy and wanting to be able to use my Cubo Tumas on a melee class. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)
Traps: Same as FI

Mastergunner:

Requirements: Character level 130, FG20, FI20, GT20
Stats: Similar to FG with better ATP and TP
PAs: Level 40 skills, level 50 bullets, level 20 attack techs, level 40 support techs.
Weapons: S-rank: All ranged weapons. A-rank: Saber, spear, twin saber, dagger, twin dagger, wand, madoog, sword, double saber.
Traps: Same as FG

Masterforce:

Requirements: Character level 130, FT20, WT20, GT20.
Stats: Similar to FT with better HP, ATP and ATA
PAs: Level 30 skills, level 40 bullets, level 50 attack, level 40 support.
Weapons: S-rank: Rod, Wand, Madoog, Bow, Card, Crossbow, Twin Handgun, Dagger. A-rank: Spear, saber, knuckles, mechgun, shadoog, twin claw, claw, whip.
Traps: Same as GT.

Acromaster:

Requirements: Character level 150, AF20, AT20, PT20
Stats: AT with more HP
PAs: Level 40 melee, level 40 bullets, level 30 attack techniques, level 50 support.
Weapons: S-rank: See S-rank lists of PT, AF and AT. A-rank: See A-rank lists of AF and AT not covered by either's S-ranks. Plus Crossbows. Because I like Crossbows, damn it.
Traps: Same as PT

Sure, that would completely obsolete the current classes. But think of all the things you could do. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Yes, lumping PT in with the acro classes makes no sense. No, I don't care.

Point: They can't please everybody. You people and your gimped pieces of shit would annoy me and make me wonder why they bothered if my beloved FI is better anyway. My uber-classes that would finally allow me to actually play the way I want to play(Good melee with crossbows + support? HEL YEH) would annoy you and make you wonder why they bothered with the expert classes. Nobody will ever be happy, so I like my idea better since, hey, more fun for me and if you want your expert classes still you're welcome to them. :3

Further point: The game isn't hard to begin with, especially not in a group. So uh, it can't really get any easier. >_>

amtalx
Jan 3, 2008, 02:04 PM
On 2008-01-03 08:47, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2008-01-03 08:13, amtalx wrote:
I beg to differ. Using your logic, everything would be cured by having a single class that can use all weapons at S-Rank. Then we could play how we want right? If you want to be a ranger, fill your palette with guns. Feel like dropping some technic bombs? Equip force weapons. Everyone would just have a "custom class" determined by their PA list.

Trade-offs are the entire point of a class system. You can't, and shouldn't, be good at everything. Why bother expanding the viable classes to 7, only to reduce it back to 4? It doesn't make sense.

What if ST's opinion is that 7 jobs is unreasonably restrictive. I keep having to change off of Protranser to Fortegunner or Fortefighter on teams... either my lack of attack techs means that I need access to rifles and Killer Shot, or the fact that I'm filling a specific role for the group means that I'm just stuck with the crap side of PT with weaker stats and no PP savings. That arrangement of jobs isn't diversity, it's inconvenience.

Solo, you want versatility. On a team, you want maximum power for a small selection of weapons that you'll cover while your teammates do other stuff. If you could NEVER change your Expert class after the initial pick, those would be "balanced" options where you choose frustration and weakness in one situation or the other.

Fortunately PSU isn't like that, but there's still the annoyance of taking time to hit 5th floor Clyez and then rummaging through my PM for a couple skills and gear every time my team goes from 3 people to 4 and I want to stay 100% productive. Oh and I'll forget to re-equip my armor. What makes sense IMO is getting rid of the jobs that trade off between power and versatility on the same role (fighter, gunner, techer, I guess you could throw acro in there though wtf is "acro" really?) ... there's nothing gained by having that division, given that we can switch between them at any time.

... and that's what I hope Master classes are, fF+WT+FG, fG+GT+PT, fT+WT+GT. If you want to go from melee to tech, that's a job change. If you want to go from gunning solo to gunning on a team, you don't.


The existing classes (9 actually, I forgot the acros) cover everything rather well. You have fortes, strong singular focus; the hybrids, a full coverage mix of the fortes; and PT and acros, specialty classes that have their own abilities. I don't see how that is restrictive at all.

I don't find the solo argument very persuasive. The reason is this: The offline classes are balanced to suit offline play. They are practically master classes anyway, with minor access to abilities outside of the main focus. Online classes are balanced to suit a game with multiple players. That means that everyone is intended to have a different job, thus making each class a little more focused.

It sounds a little like you want to have your cake and eat it too. What you described is essentially a series of super hybrid classes, classes that can do multiple things without the usual requisite downside of be mediocre at them.

As it stands now, there are 3 basic types of combat that are manifested in 9 various forms. I just think dumbing down the game so much that the viable classes number less than half of what was previously available is silly. I'm all for expansion, but making the game smaller by giving us less options...no sale.

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 02:17 PM
Anyway, I guess I’ll go ahead and throw a full class expectation out there, since everyone else has.

Fighmaster:
Requirement: HU 7
40 skills, 20 bullets
S ranks: Double Sabers, Twin Sabers, Sabers, Swords, Spears, Knuckles
A ranks: Axes, Twin Daggers, Twin Claws, Daggers, Claws, Slicers, Handguns, Machineguns, Shadoogs

Stat wise, same HP as WT, 10% less ATP than fF, same ATA as fF, same TP as FG, same DFP as AF, same EVP as HU, same MST as fF, same STA as all non-RA classes. 3% bonus to Beasts.

Gunmaster:
Requirement: RA 7
20 skills, 40 bullets
S ranks: Rifles, Twin Handguns, Crossbows, Laser Cannons, Handguns, Shadoogs
A ranks: Shotguns, Grenades, Cards, Spears, Sabers, Daggers (possibly bows?)

Stat wise, same HP as GT, 10% less ATP than fG, same ATA as fG, same TP as fG, same DFP as RA, same EVP as GT, same MST as fG, and same STA as fG. Same trap access as fG. 3% bonus to Casts.

Masterforce:
Requirement: FO 7
20 skills, 20 bullets, 40 attack techs, 40 support techs
S ranks: Rods, Wands, Madoogs, Cards (possibly whips?)
A ranks: Whips, Bows, Shadoogs, Handguns, Sabers, Daggers, Twin Daggers, Spears

Stat wise, same HP as FO, same ATP as FO, same ATA as WT, same TP as AF, same DFP as FO, same EVP as WT, same MST as AT, and same STA as all non-RA classes. 3% bonus to Newmans.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 11:19 ]</font>

Golto
Jan 3, 2008, 02:25 PM
Ok Pillan explain to me why Acromaster, which in AOI should be a combination of Acrofighter and Acrotecher, have access to s ranks in two handed melee weapons? The two acro types we have now speicalize in singled handed weapons. Psp's weapon selection doesn't jive with AOI online's weapon selection. So trying to use the Psp's weapon selection doesn't work. The PSP version is condensing the types into a smaller number and is still more like offline than online.

AlphaDragoon
Jan 3, 2008, 02:31 PM
On 2008-01-03 07:39, CAVAOUBIEN wrote:
Alpha, your argument is moot if you have a minimum level requirement on the Master classes. Why would you make fun of a class when it is an intermediate class. I mean, do you make fun of Hunter, Ranger and Force classes? No, like everyone, you consider them as a step towards a better class giving you access to different (more fun, more powerful) game styles. You don't bitch against the forte classes because they just made the Hunter, Ranger and Force classes obsolete.

But to answer your question,yes: I am indeed longing for a class which allows me to play the game style of my characters without some of the current compromises connected to the forte or hybrid classes.

Judging by the countless threads on some of the "mysterious" limitations to the forte classes or some hybrid classes, I am not the only one.

Again, I don't see a problem with this if it introduces a logical progression path for my character(s) wich I can access providing I have a certain character level and whatever job level required. On the other hand, introducing a super gimped 'Master" class makes no sense whatsoever to me I'm afraid.

Minimum level requirement...are you joking? So it'll make people spam the highest MP run until they have the Master classes available. In the long run...everyone will still be one of three classes. If it was like the advanced classes where there were SEVERAL types that do DIFFERENT THINGS, then it'd be a completely different matter.

By your logic, we should nix all the advanced types and simply adjust Hunter/Ranger/Force, because all we need is three classes. That flew in PSO, don't think it'll fly nowadays.

When you logically think about it, there's a limit to the amount of types you can have. With the advanced types eventually they'll make every kind of combination they can make, then you get to the Master classes. Unfortunately once you get to Master classes as Sega has them it doesn't expand the scope like the advanced types did, it limits it, because there are no Master hybrid types.

What would happen then after the Master classes? One singular "uber class" that does everything? But it seems that's exactly what you want...

Rayokarna
Jan 3, 2008, 02:34 PM
On 2008-01-03 11:04, amtalx wrote:

On 2008-01-03 08:47, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2008-01-03 08:13, amtalx wrote:
I beg to differ. Using your logic, everything would be cured by having a single class that can use all weapons at S-Rank. Then we could play how we want right? If you want to be a ranger, fill your palette with guns. Feel like dropping some technic bombs? Equip force weapons. Everyone would just have a "custom class" determined by their PA list.

Trade-offs are the entire point of a class system. You can't, and shouldn't, be good at everything. Why bother expanding the viable classes to 7, only to reduce it back to 4? It doesn't make sense.

What if ST's opinion is that 7 jobs is unreasonably restrictive. I keep having to change off of Protranser to Fortegunner or Fortefighter on teams... either my lack of attack techs means that I need access to rifles and Killer Shot, or the fact that I'm filling a specific role for the group means that I'm just stuck with the crap side of PT with weaker stats and no PP savings. That arrangement of jobs isn't diversity, it's inconvenience.

Solo, you want versatility. On a team, you want maximum power for a small selection of weapons that you'll cover while your teammates do other stuff. If you could NEVER change your Expert class after the initial pick, those would be "balanced" options where you choose frustration and weakness in one situation or the other.

Fortunately PSU isn't like that, but there's still the annoyance of taking time to hit 5th floor Clyez and then rummaging through my PM for a couple skills and gear every time my team goes from 3 people to 4 and I want to stay 100% productive. Oh and I'll forget to re-equip my armor. What makes sense IMO is getting rid of the jobs that trade off between power and versatility on the same role (fighter, gunner, techer, I guess you could throw acro in there though wtf is "acro" really?) ... there's nothing gained by having that division, given that we can switch between them at any time.

... and that's what I hope Master classes are, fF+WT+FG, fG+GT+PT, fT+WT+GT. If you want to go from melee to tech, that's a job change. If you want to go from gunning solo to gunning on a team, you don't.


The existing classes (9 actually, I forgot the acros) cover everything rather well. You have fortes, strong singular focus; the hybrids, a full coverage mix of the fortes; and PT and acros, specialty classes that have their own abilities. I don't see how that is restrictive at all.

I don't find the solo argument very persuasive. The reason is this: The offline classes are balanced to suit offline play. They are practically master classes anyway, with minor access to abilities outside of the main focus. Online classes are balanced to suit a game with multiple players. That means that everyone is intended to have a different job, thus making each class a little more focused.

It sounds a little like you want to have your cake and eat it too. What you described is essentially a series of super hybrid classes, classes that can do multiple things without the usual requisite downside of be mediocre at them.

As it stands now, there are 3 basic types of combat that are manifested in 9 various forms. I just think dumbing down the game so much that the viable classes number less than half of what was previously available is silly. I'm all for expansion, but making the game smaller by giving us less options...no sale.



At the rate this is going, were gonna see very small amount of people using the master classes so it wont make much of a difference XD

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 02:34 PM
On 2008-01-03 11:25, Golto wrote:
Ok Pillan explain to me why Acromaster, which in AOI should be a combination of Acrofighter and Acrotecher, have access to s ranks in two handed melee weapons? The two acro types we have now speicalize in singled handed weapons. Psp's weapon selection doesn't jive with AOI online's weapon selection. So trying to use the Psp's weapon selection doesn't work. The PSP version is condensing the types into a smaller number and is still more like offline than online.


That only brings up the issue of rank, not issues of the complete weapon selection, which all goes back to my earlier statement of saying "they'd probably be weaker than the PSP version, if anything."

Besides, what does specialization have to do with S ranks? PT specializes in trap damage and look at all the shiny S ranks they get... And what's a FG and WT's primary damage weapon? Is it their shiny S ranks or do they stick to their A rank spears? What S rank bow class can't out damage their bows with every A rank weapon option?

Once again, this goes back to the "are you really going to throw out our only clue over a couple S ranks?" Not to mention you answered your own question as to why they got those extra S ranks.

So take that as a base model and change around a couple things that look more online appropriate like I did in my above post. It’s really not hard.

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 02:39 PM
On 2008-01-03 11:17, Pillan wrote:
Anyway, I guess I’ll go ahead and throw a full class expectation out there, since everyone else has.

Fighmaster:
Requirement: HU 7
40 skills, 20 bullets
S ranks: Double Sabers, Twin Sabers, Sabers, Swords, Spears, Knuckles
A ranks: Axes, Twin Daggers, Twin Claws, Daggers, Claws, Slicers, Handguns, Machineguns, Shadoogs

Stat wise, same HP as WT, 10% less ATP than fF, same ATA as fF, same TP as FG, same DFP as AF, same EVP as HU, same MST as fF, same STA as all non-RA classes. 3% bonus to Beasts.

Gunmaster:
Requirement: RA 7
20 skills, 40 bullets
S ranks: Rifles, Twin Handguns, Crossbows, Laser Cannons, Handguns, Shadoogs
A ranks: Shotguns, Grenades, Cards, Spears, Sabers, Daggers (possibly bows?)

Stat wise, same HP as GT, 10% less ATP than fG, same ATA as fG, same TP as fG, same DFP as RA, same EVP as GT, same MST as fG, and same STA as fG. Same trap access as fG. 3% bonus to Casts.

Masterforce:
Requirement: FO 7
20 skills, 20 bullets, 40 attack techs, 40 support techs
S ranks: Rods, Wands, Madoogs, Cards (possibly whips?)
A ranks: Whips, Bows, Shadoogs, Handguns, Sabers, Daggers, Twin Daggers, Spears

Stat wise, same HP as FO, same ATP as FO, same ATA as WT, same TP as AF, same DFP as FO, same EVP as WT, same MST as AT, and same STA as all non-RA classes. 3% bonus to Newmans.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 11:19 ]</font>


about those requirement how come all forte classes have 10 in there perspective field and why Master classes has 7? That does not make whole lot sense..

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 02:44 PM
On 2008-01-03 11:39, GuardianElite wrote:
about those requirement how come all forte classes have 10 in there perspective field and why Master classes has 7? That does not make whole lot sense..


It makes perfect sense if you don't live by the assumption that they're supposed to be better than the fortes.

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 02:45 PM
On 2008-01-03 11:44, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 11:39, GuardianElite wrote:
about those requirement how come all forte classes have 10 in there perspective field and why Master classes has 7? That does not make whole lot sense..


It makes perfect sense if you don't live by the assumption that they're supposed to be better than the fortes.



Trust me Pillan my boy they are get over it..

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 02:50 PM
On 2008-01-03 11:45, GuardianElite wrote:
Trust me Pillan my boy they are get over it..


And what is your basis behind such a statement? Can you give me any proof besides that Master sounds more powerful than Forte?

I'll trust you once the evidence suggests that is the case.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 11:51 ]</font>

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 02:52 PM
Forte= Good at what they do
Master=Mastered the art of that class and can't go no further

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 02:55 PM
On 2008-01-03 11:52, GuardianElite wrote:
Forte= Good at what they do
Master=Mastered the art of that class and can't go no further


My point exactly...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 11:56 ]</font>

CelestialBlade
Jan 3, 2008, 02:55 PM
There isn't a single one of us that can claim to "know" how these classes are going to be, we can ONLY theorize. So enough with the "it's this way get over it," you don't know any better than we do. Get your head out of the clouds.

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 03:01 PM
On 2008-01-03 11:55, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 11:52, GuardianElite wrote:
Forte= Good at what they do
Master=Mastered the art of that class and can't go no further


My point exactly...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 11:56 ]</font>

It would really be redundant if the master classes are exactly like the forte which in part would not make since..

Rayokarna
Jan 3, 2008, 03:05 PM
Saying all of that, has anyone forgotten that the current Class lvl will be increased to 20. By no means are we dont with the expert classes. But hopefully seeing a new teir makes me happy. Seeing that we all rip things to shreads in seconds and the new S2 missions will be out somewhere down the line(Hell, we might see even more seperate missions as well...). We haven't even used everything in the game data yet(Ice Purifications anyone, 13*+ weapons, Stuff from offline mode).

If you put all of that together and look and the classes we have now, it seems that new classes are bound to come out. So reguardless of how you look at it, its coming. And as was said before, it's not gonna please everybody. Just sit back and relax and let PSU unravel itself, you will find things you like and don't like http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

CAVAOUBIEN
Jan 3, 2008, 03:22 PM
On 2008-01-03 11:31, AlphaDragoon wrote:

Minimum level requirement...are you joking? So it'll make people spam the highest MP run until they have the Master classes available.


Hey Alpha, no offense, but that's pretty much what people do these days, they race to the highest level as quickly as possible (at least quite a few players do), and there isn't the motivation of a master class now is there? I mean, how long did you stay Hunter or Ranger, or Force? You probably did just what you described as insane for the master classes: leveled up as quickly as possible just to play the class you wanted. I'm not sure I see a huge difference here...

If you read my suggestion, which is pure speculation anyway, I mentionned both a level threshold for the job and the character. This puts the Master classes as an ultimate class - something to look forward to as you reach a high level and a high (or maxed out) job level.

Also you seem to refer to 3 Master classes, when I thought there were four announced, one being Acro Master? So it seems you would still have a master hybrid class - I certainly would hope so. BTW, the forte classes are natural extensions of their basic counterparts already, the difference being the types and ranks of weapons and PA levels. So my (speculative) suggestion is still in the same logic prevailing in the game today. So, as much as this is pure speculation on my part, there is nothing remotely improbable or insane about it.

Anyway, I have no evidence whatsoever to back this up. I just voiced what I thought would be a good idea to keep a high level player motivated in an RPG style game. I'm quite OK with the fact that you wouldn't think it's a good idea.


On 2008-01-03 11:31, AlphaDragoon wrote:
What would happen then after the Master classes? One singular "uber class" that does everything? But it seems that's exactly what you want...


Actually, what I stated is that I wanted to play my character game style with less compromise than the forte or hybrid classes today (ex: a techer with max offensive and support technics- the rest can stay the same, or an Acro with access to two handed S-rank weapons). I'm not longing for an über class that would encompass all classes beyond that... that would be an ultimate class for a solo game, not an on-line cooperative team game. I'm not sure where you got the impression that this is what I wanted...

cheers






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CAVAOUBIEN on 2008-01-03 12:33 ]</font>

panzer_unit
Jan 3, 2008, 03:45 PM
On 2008-01-03 11:04, amtalx wrote:
The existing classes (9 actually, I forgot the acros) cover everything rather well. You have fortes, strong singular focus; the hybrids, a full coverage mix of the fortes; and PT and acros, specialty classes that have their own abilities. I don't see how that is restrictive at all.
...
It sounds a little like you want to have your cake and eat it too. What you described is essentially a series of super hybrid classes, classes that can do multiple things without the usual requisite downside of be mediocre at them.

As it stands now, there are 3 basic types of combat that are manifested in 9 various forms. I just think dumbing down the game so much that the viable classes number less than half of what was previously available is silly. I'm all for expansion, but making the game smaller by giving us less options...no sale.


The way I see it, a hybrid job's versatility is 90% irrelevant when it's performing its primary role on a team... and a Forte's power advantage isn't worth much at all compared to a hybrid's versatility when Dimmogalus starts flying as a fighter, or you run into a map full of bullet-resistant monsters as a gunner.

Since you gain effectively nothing from taking a Hybrid into a team, or taking a Forte out soloing (or on a small team, PSU is far more enjoyable like that) ... trading off power for versatility or vice-versa isn't logical class design, especially since you can totally ignore the distinction by running back to Clyez 5th floor often enough. I know a lot of players who ask before joining a team if they should show up as their favorite forte class or a hybrid and take a couple minutes to switch if required. They're already taking a hit to their primary skill variety and levels, why make them waste five minutes before joining a group for the night by having two jobs for the same thing, one with grenades and the other with resta?

I hope the master classes fix that, if not I see no point in introducing additional jobs since I agree that every imaginable specialization and blend is pretty well-covered already.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-01-03 13:10 ]</font>

Lamak
Jan 3, 2008, 03:51 PM
ALL S ranks in one area.
Lower Stats.
50 PA cap.

Simple.

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 04:18 PM
On 2008-01-03 12:01, GuardianElite wrote:
It would really be redundant if the master classes are exactly like the forte which in part would not make since..


That's very true. That's why you can just make them a bit weaker than the Forte's and less polarized so that they offer a wider pallet selection and different distribution of S ranks, like the classic HU, RA, and FO classes.

That's what I see coming. And we'll find out who's right within the next 4 weeks or so regardless.

SStrikerR
Jan 3, 2008, 04:26 PM
lol the OP's idea fails. (lol he decscribes PT, except even crappier.) Here's what I see:

Fighmaster
Melee PA-50
Range-0
Tech-30
all S rank's in melee weapons.
NO guns whatsoever
A rank in wands and madoogs.
To change into it you need whatever the cap is by that time, for fighunner, fortefighter, and wartecher.

Gunmaster I see as being the same way, except with guns and techs, and no melee.
Forcemaster...I see this as having 50 for techs, and only having force weapons of course.

I think that ALL of the classes will get a boost for their respective "main class," so to speak.
ie, fighmaster gets a damage boost with melee weapons.

I don't think the OP is right with his guess of luxury, but no power. how the crap are they masters if they suck?

Akaimizu
Jan 3, 2008, 04:31 PM
"I don't think the OP is right with his guess of luxury, but no power. how the crap are they masters if they suck? "

Because you have to be "The Master" in order to play them. Sorry. Couldn't resist the setup. Anyway, I'll stop with the Last Dragon references. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

HalfDarShadow
Jan 3, 2008, 04:38 PM
um.......


i hope youh most of youh kno, no1 knos anything yet. this topic was an idea, not a clairification.
there all great ideas, but those who argue about this, dont go around telling others it should be like "that".

youh dont kno, nor do they. there just suggestions.


basically we all just have to wait and see.

panzer_unit
Jan 3, 2008, 04:41 PM
On 2008-01-03 13:18, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 12:01, GuardianElite wrote:
It would really be redundant if the master classes are exactly like the forte which in part would not make since..


That's very true. That's why you can just make them a bit weaker than the Forte's and less polarized so that they offer a wider pallet selection and different distribution of S ranks, like the classic HU, RA, and FO classes.



... now you're only dumping on the Hybrids instead of the Forte's. They're already weaker than Fortes with a wider pallet selection and different distribution of S ranks.

The new jobs may as well outclass ALL expert jobs since it's very hard to imagine how they're not going to outclass SOME of them, or how they could possibly fit without outclassing ANY.

Who knows, maybe there's going to be some surprise balancing act, like you don't gain XP... or maybe don't gain PA levels... as a Master, and have to do all your leveling as a weaker/more limited Expert class.

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 04:50 PM
On 2008-01-03 13:41, panzer_unit wrote:
... now you're only dumping on the Hybrids instead of the Forte's. They're already weaker than Fortes with a wider pallet selection and different distribution of S ranks.


Actually, the intention was to list them as a step between the two. Less versitility than the hybrids and more than the fortes, as they appear on the PSP version. It's really not dumping them on anybody since, you know, Fighgunner still has a wider variety of range options than my Fighmaster, Fortefighter is still just plain more powerful, and Wartecher still has techs, cards, bows, and whips.

You can go through and repeat that with the other 2. It's fairly easy to do this without stepping on anyone's toes. It seems a lot of the more vocal players just want them to.

panzer_unit
Jan 3, 2008, 05:44 PM
On 2008-01-03 13:50, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 13:41, panzer_unit wrote:
... now you're only dumping on the Hybrids instead of the Forte's. They're already weaker than Fortes with a wider pallet selection and different distribution of S ranks.


Actually, the intention was to list them as a step between the two. Less versitility than the hybrids and more than the fortes, as they appear on the PSP version. It's really not dumping them on anybody since, you know, Fighgunner still has a wider variety of range options than my Fighmaster, Fortefighter is still just plain more powerful, and Wartecher still has techs, cards, bows, and whips.

You can go through and repeat that with the other 2. It's fairly easy to do this without stepping on anyone's toes. It seems a lot of the more vocal players just want them to.



I get you, but that's going to be a pretty tight squeeze I think. It would be easy to try that and still end up with something that either dominates both classes... or something completely unappealing.

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 06:03 PM
On 2008-01-03 14:44, panzer_unit wrote:
I get you, but that's going to be a pretty tight squeeze I think. It would be easy to try that and still end up with something that either dominates both classes... or something completely unappealing.


And that makes it different from the current version how? Most people still don't like Wartecher and Guntecher, but they're still decently balanced with the current classes and the people who like the idea of combining ranged with techs and melee with techs like them. (Aside from Fortefighter, which ST threw in a legue of it's own for some reason... Hopefully class levels 16-20 will fix that.)

And, between that and the infinitely better than the current classes theory, I like mine a bit more. But, as has been said before, it's all speculation with little to no basis, so we'll find out what happens in a few weeks.

Reipard
Jan 3, 2008, 06:20 PM
Actually, the intention was to list them as a step between the two. Less versitility than the hybrids and more than the fortes, as they appear on the PSP version. It's really not dumping them on anybody since, you know, Fighgunner still has a wider variety of range options than my Fighmaster, Fortefighter is still just plain more powerful, and Wartecher still has techs, cards, bows, and whips.

The problem with this approach is that PSP is based off of offline balance and offline has no expert classes. The only class FighMaster, GunMaster and Masterforce has to balance with in PSP is Protranser. They don't have to be a step between anything.

Not that a step between Forte and Hybrid isn't pointless. There is absolutely no unique abilities to differentiate any class that is no Transer or Acro. The versatility is EVERYTHING the hybrid classes are and the specialization is EVERYTHING the Forte classes are. There is no way to make an in-between without either making the Master classes useless or stepping on existing classes toes.

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 06:21 PM
On 2008-01-03 15:03, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 14:44, panzer_unit wrote:
I get you, but that's going to be a pretty tight squeeze I think. It would be easy to try that and still end up with something that either dominates both classes... or something completely unappealing.


And that makes it different from the current version how? Most people still don't like Wartecher and Guntecher, but they're still decently balanced with the current classes and the people who like the idea of combining ranged with techs and melee with techs like them. (Aside from Fortefighter, which ST threw in a legue of it's own for some reason... Hopefully class levels 16-20 will fix that.)

And, between that and the infinitely better than the current classes theory, I like mine a bit more. But, as has been said before, it's all speculation with little to no basis, so we'll find out what happens in a few weeks.


of course, you like yr own theory http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif of with any expansion going to be lot more higher tier classes might as get well use to it

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 06:32 PM
On 2008-01-03 15:20, Reipard wrote:
The problem with this approach is that PSP is based off of offline balance and offline has no expert classes. The only class FighMaster, GunMaster and Masterforce has to balance with in PSP is Protranser. They don't have to be a step between anything.


They sure don’t. That just makes sense to me.

If it’s balanced with Protranser on PSP and Protranser is balanced with everything else and all the class levels of the current classes are being increased to 20 anyway, why wouldn’t the master classes be balanced with all of that?


On 2008-01-03 15:20, Reipard wrote:
Not that a step between Forte and Hybrid isn't pointless. There is absolutely no unique abilities to differentiate any class that is no Transer or Acro. The versatility is EVERYTHING the hybrid classes are and the specialization is EVERYTHING the Forte classes are. There is no way to make an in-between without either making the Master classes useless or stepping on existing classes toes.


I think you missed the reasoning in my previous post. Here it is again:


On 2008-01-03 13:50, Pillan wrote:
It's really not dumping them on anybody since, you know, Fighgunner still has a wider variety of range options than my Fighmaster, Fortefighter is still just plain more powerful, and Wartecher still has techs, cards, bows, and whips.


As you see, if you define Fighmaster that way, it’s still a weaker ranger than Fighgunner, it still doesn’t have the Wartecher advantages, and it doesn’t have the raw power of Fortefighter. And for not having those things, it gets a wider melee weapon selection than all of them.

Anyone can simply say “I don’t like double sabers and lower ATP, so I’m sticking to Fortefigher” or “I love my twin handguns and crossbows, so I’m sticking to Fighgunner” or “I love my whips and Resta, so I’m sticking to Wartecher” or even “I like my faster attack speed, so I’m sticking to Acrofighter.” It effectively gives you a reason to still play everything while giving the people who prefer the new option to the current ones a reason to play it.

As I said before, it’s really not difficult.

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 06:39 PM
On 2008-01-03 15:32, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 15:20, Reipard wrote:
The problem with this approach is that PSP is based off of offline balance and offline has no expert classes. The only class FighMaster, GunMaster and Masterforce has to balance with in PSP is Protranser. They don't have to be a step between anything.


They sure don’t. That just makes sense to me.

If it’s balanced with Protranser on PSP and Protranser is balanced with everything else and all the class levels of the current classes are being increased to 20 anyway, why wouldn’t the master classes be balanced with all of that?


On 2008-01-03 15:20, Reipard wrote:
Not that a step between Forte and Hybrid isn't pointless. There is absolutely no unique abilities to differentiate any class that is no Transer or Acro. The versatility is EVERYTHING the hybrid classes are and the specialization is EVERYTHING the Forte classes are. There is no way to make an in-between without either making the Master classes useless or stepping on existing classes toes.


I think you missed the reasoning in my previous post. Here it is again:


On 2008-01-03 13:50, Pillan wrote:
It's really not dumping them on anybody since, you know, Fighgunner still has a wider variety of range options than my Fighmaster, Fortefighter is still just plain more powerful, and Wartecher still has techs, cards, bows, and whips.


As you see, if you define Fighmaster that way, it’s still a weaker ranger than Fighgunner, it still doesn’t have the Wartecher advantages, and it doesn’t have the raw power of Fortefighter. And for not having those things, it gets a wider melee weapon selection than all of them.

Anyone can simply say “I don’t like double sabers and lower ATP, so I’m sticking to Fortefigher” or “I love my twin handguns and crossbows, so I’m sticking to Fighgunner” or “I love my whips and Resta, so I’m sticking to Wartecher” or even “I like my faster attack speed, so I’m sticking to Acrofighter.” It effectively gives you a reason to still play everything while giving the people who prefer the new option to the current ones a reason to play it.

As I said before, it’s really not difficult.


Really if they wanted it like fortes all they could have done is added to thier pallet they change some stuff on wartecher. so i believe Masters are tier of their own

NNEONateDogg
Jan 3, 2008, 06:50 PM
In my opinion, I think that these will be how the master classes will go:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/NNEO_Nate_Dogg/aoti_types_fighmaster.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/NNEO_Nate_Dogg/aoti_types_gunmaster.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/NNEO_Nate_Dogg/aoti_types_masterforce.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/NNEO_Nate_Dogg/aoti_types_acromaster.jpg

As a joke, this would be the ultimate of the master classes:
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/NNEO_Nate_Dogg/aoti_types_mastertranser.jpg

Reipard
Jan 3, 2008, 06:54 PM
They sure don’t. That just makes sense to me.

If it’s balanced with Protranser on PSP and Protranser is balanced with everything else and all the class levels of the current classes are being increased to 20 anyway, why wouldn’t the master classes be balanced with all of that?

Because PSP is not PSU. Because offline is not online. I think Hunters and Rangers should have wands because they do offline. Is that the case?


I think you missed the reasoning in my previous post. Here it is again:

No, I didn't. Weapon specialty and PA cap is EVERYTHING a class currently is. If FighMaster is a weaker Fortefighter with more S ranks, who's going to use it over something that's already a weaker Fortefighter with more S ranks AND offers more options than just melee?

There's only so many melee specialties and a number of classes already provide those combinations, whether it be Acrofighter, Fortefighter, Wartecher or FighGunner. The Double Saber is the only melee weapon not spread out across multiple classes as it is. Ultimately, there'd be little reason to choose a FighMaster over any of those if it's going to be weaker.

It can't be done. Either FighMaster would be a novelty class or all the other classes would have their toes stepped on. It simply doesn't work.

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 07:10 PM
On 2008-01-03 15:54, Reipard wrote:
Because PSP is not PSU. Because offline is not online. I think Hunters and Rangers should have wands because they do offline. Is that the case?


Are we really going to bicker about tech usage of HU and RA being the only difference so far? Is a difference that small really worth saying the entire class is going to be different from the offline version of the same thing. The only true counter-example of a vast difference between the online and offline versions are the basic classes on the current game, but it’s already been confirmed that on PSP the basic classes have a B rank cap. The point is that there are more similarities between the PSP version and online PSU than there are between offline PSU and online PSU and from that it’s fairly easy to argue a basis is better than no basis at all.

It’s a fairly simple concept. I’m not asking you to believe me nor am I saying that I’m clearly right. I will say, however, that it’s more plausible than anything else thus far just because it has some basis as opposed to none.


On 2008-01-03 15:54, Reipard wrote:
There's only so many melee specialties and a number of classes already provide those combinations, whether it be Acrofighter, Fortefighter, Wartecher or FighGunner. The Double Saber is the only melee weapon not spread out across multiple classes as it is. Ultimately, there'd be little reason to choose a FighMaster over any of those if it's going to be weaker.


My FM compared to fF: less HP, ATP, and DFP for more TP and EVP, double saber access, shadoog access, and machinegun access.

My FM compared to FG: more HP, ATP, and DFP, less ATA, EVP, and STA, and axe access at the cost of twin handguns and crossbows.

My FM compared to WT: more HP, ATP, ATA and DFP, less TP, EVP, and MST, and axe and double saber access at the cost of whips, bows, cards, and tech access.

My FM compared to AF: more HP, and ATP (enough more to make up for the speed difference), less ATA, TP, EVP, MST, and ATA, and spear, sword, axe, and double saber access at the cost of cards and faster attack speed.

That sounds diverse enough to me, but you’re obviously entitled to your own opinion.


I’m really enjoying this. Keep it up.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 16:12 ]</font>

Golto
Jan 3, 2008, 07:21 PM
It doesn't make sense in AOI online for any type with 'master' in it to be gimped when compared to the Expert types. If they were supposed to be intermediary types they wouldn't use 'master' in their names.

So there will be 3 categories of types:
1. Basic types HU-RA-FO
2. Expert types FF-FtG-FT-FiG-PT-AT-AF-GT-WT
3. Master types FM-GM-MF-AM

So simple but some people just don't get it.

-Tidus_415-
Jan 3, 2008, 07:21 PM
On 2008-01-03 04:58, amtalx wrote:
People don't want the master classes to render previous classes obsolete because it would reduce the number of viable classes. When we had HU/RA/FO and fG/fF/fT/FG/GT/WT/PT were added, we wend from 3->7 classes. That's a good thing. Variety is rarely bad. The forte classes are pretty much the same as the basic classes, so we didn't really loose a step anyway.

If the master classes make the advanced classes obsolete, we will be going from 7->4. Bad. Who knows though, maybe ST will get crafty and make more than 4 master classes... Anyway, it would reduce the number of viable class choices if the master classes are significantly better. I'm not a big fan. This game is easy enough without superclasses.



EXACTLY!!!!

Nobody seems to fucking understand that.

Cry0
Jan 3, 2008, 07:26 PM
30 pa cap is stupid, other then that, yeah, their stats shouldnt be too high. but 30 pa cap is stupid.

Dein
Jan 3, 2008, 07:28 PM
On 2008-01-03 16:10, Pillan wrote:
Are we really going to bicker about tech usage of HU and RA being the only difference so far? Is a difference that small really worth saying the entire class is going to be different from the offline version of the same thing. The only true counter-example of a vast difference between the online and offline versions are the basic classes on the current game, but it’s already been confirmed that on PSP the basic classes have a B rank cap. The point is that there are more similarities between the PSP version and online PSU than there are between offline PSU and online PSU and from that it’s fairly easy to argue a basis is better than no basis at all.

It’s a fairly simple concept. I’m not asking you to believe me nor am I saying that I’m clearly right. I will say, however, that it’s more plausible than anything else thus far just because it has some basis as opposed to none.


Actually, the basic classes for PSP have A rank in their weapons not B, although PSUpedia actually does not list those I believe Espio stated that on this site so I'll have to search for his post. But Reipard is right, you can't use PSP as something to completely base your argument off of. Also, your idea for FM isn't different enough from the expert classes (although I know that's your idea) that it'd really be an appealing alternative to the general population. Sega is probably using these classes as a means to give players more to do, and in order to get people interested in them, they'll make them stronger than the current types with wider weapon selections.

Edit: Found the post made by Espio, where he clearly says the basic types will have A rank in their weapons. http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=165031&forum=20
I'd also suggest reading his disclaimer about the info he posted.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dein on 2008-01-03 16:33 ]</font>

Reipard
Jan 3, 2008, 07:29 PM
Are we really going to bicker about tech usage of HU and RA being the only difference so far? Is a difference that small really worth saying the entire class is going to be different from the offline version of the same thing. The only true counter-example of a vast difference between the online and offline versions are the basic classes on the current game, but it’s already been confirmed that on PSP the basic classes have a B rank cap. The point is that there are more similarities between the PSP version and online PSU than there are between offline PSU and online PSU and from that it’s fairly easy to argue a basis is better than no basis at all.

It’s a fairly simple concept. I’m not asking you to believe me nor am I saying that I’m clearly right. I will say, however, that it’s more plausible than anything else thus far just because it has some basis as opposed to none.

That basis is still no better than the previous basis we had, honestly.

PSP is meant to be entirely self-contained in relation to itself. Imagine what would happen if we were to try and speculate on Pokemon Diamond and Pearl's metagame based entirely on the two Mysterious Dungeon sidegames, despite the similarities in terms of usable Pokemon and movesets. We'd get pretty much laughed out of the boards because they're two completely seperate entities, despite the same Pokemon learning the same moves with very few differences.


My FM compared to fF: less HP, ATP, and DFP for more TP and EVP, double saber access, shadoog access, and machinegun access.

My FM compared to FG: more HP, ATP, and DFP, less ATA, EVP, and STA, and axe access at the cost of twin handguns and crossbows.

My FM compared to WT: more HP, ATP, ATA and DFP, less TP, EVP, and MST, and axe and double saber access at the cost of whips, bows, cards, and tech access.

My FM compared to AF: more HP, and ATP (enough more to make up for the speed difference), less ATA, TP, EVP, MST, and ATA, and spear, sword, axe, and double saber access at the cost of cards and faster attack speed.

That sounds diverse enough to me, but you’re obviously entitled to your own opinion.

You can use blanket comparisons, but how much are we talking of each here? Because the classes are close enough stat-wise that the line has to be fine. Less DFP, ATP, TP and MST mean absolutely nothing if it's a difference of like 50-60 at most.

Rayokarna
Jan 3, 2008, 07:44 PM
I personally think they should be a higher teir amongst themselves, include weapons from different aspects of the game to allow them to work solo easier but also good in team play in general. Also saying that, I hate changing classes for different situations. I just want all aspects of the game in each Master Class but it shows where its speciality is.

Angelo
Jan 3, 2008, 07:52 PM
One thing people need to keep in mind is that the master classes will not make other classes obsolete.

They are just going to be another set of classes along with Forte, Hybrid, Specialist.

I really doubt Sega would make three "Better than everything" classes.

Everyone would just play as those three classes and we'd be right back to PSO.

Poncho_Jr
Jan 3, 2008, 07:56 PM
On 2008-01-03 15:50, NNEONateDogg wrote:
In my opinion, I think that these will be how the master classes will go:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/NNEO_Nate_Dogg/aoti_types_fighmaster.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/NNEO_Nate_Dogg/aoti_types_gunmaster.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/NNEO_Nate_Dogg/aoti_types_masterforce.jpg
Ahurr ahurr ahurr aho.O ONLY 4 weapons, and no Madoogs. D:
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/NNEO_Nate_Dogg/aoti_types_acromaster.jpg

As a joke, this would be the ultimate of the master classes:
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/NNEO_Nate_Dogg/aoti_types_mastertranser.jpg

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 08:30 PM
On 2008-01-03 16:28, Dein wrote:
Actually, the basic classes for PSP have A rank in their weapons not B, although PSUpedia actually does not list those I believe Espio stated that on this site so I'll have to search for his post. But Reipard is right, you can't use PSP as something to completely base your argument off of. Also, your idea for FM isn't different enough from the expert classes (although I know that's your idea) that it'd really be an appealing alternative to the general population. Sega is probably using these classes as a means to give players more to do, and in order to get people interested in them, they'll make them stronger than the current types with wider weapon selections.

Edit: Found the post made by Espio, where he clearly says the basic types will have A rank in their weapons. http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=165031&forum=20
I'd also suggest reading his disclaimer about the info he posted.


Oh. That is interesting. Thanks for the correction.

But, as far as the differentiation between the online and offline version, even though there is more of a reason to suggest it will be different, is there really enough to throw out the data entirely? Would Sonic Team make the two Fighmasters vastly different from one another?

And, of course, the biggest factor of all: given the current pattern of stronger versions of the classes offline, wouldn’t it be easy to form a basis that the online Fighmaster has to be weaker than the PSP version from that?

And I did pay attention to that disclaimer, but, as I’ve said several times over, a basis is better than none. I’ll say the odds that the PSP Fighmaster looks nothing like the new one are tiny. You are welcome to say that the A rank cap on the basic classes and tech access are enough to make that as likely as anything pulled out of the air though.

(That disclaimer was also written before we knew the Master classes would be available online and I'm willing to bet that was the main reason it was written though.)


On 2008-01-03 16:29, Reipard wrote:
PSP is meant to be entirely self-contained in relation to itself. Imagine what would happen if we were to try and speculate on Pokemon Diamond and Pearl's metagame based entirely on the two Mysterious Dungeon sidegames, despite the similarities in terms of usable Pokemon and movesets. We'd get pretty much laughed out of the boards because they're two completely seperate entities, despite the same Pokemon learning the same moves with very few differences.


It’s more like trying to speculate Pokemon Diamond and Pearl based on Gold and Silver. Same game, a lot of the same Pokemon, but new additions and made to cater to a crowd who likes an easy time progressing through. And, of course, new features that Nintendo expects someone to enjoy, but the older generation doesn’t really care for.

You can do it easily, though you’d most likely be off by a bit. There’s still some weird Team Rocket-like gang trying to push your character to the dark side, but you’re never given the option to join you. Still the same 8 gyms, though the types at each gym vary. Still the same 5 members of the Elite 4, but the Pokemon Master isn’t the old eighth gym leader. I guessed all of that before I bought the game and I’m sure you did too.

But I suppose we’ve strayed from the point. I’m saying the difference isn’t large enough to completely reject the data and you’re saying it is. I’ll assume at this point there’s nothing I can say to convince you otherwise and let it rest at that.


On 2008-01-03 16:29, Reipard wrote:
You can use blanket comparisons, but how much are we talking of each here? Because the classes are close enough stat-wise that the line has to be fine. Less DFP, ATP, TP and MST mean absolutely nothing if it's a difference of like 50-60 at most.


I really don’t see the problem with that though. Isn’t that the magnitude of differences we’re talking about between the current classes (without stat increasing items) as it is? If that’s enough for a person to choose one class over another now, why won’t it be then?

There’s a tiny difference between Fighgunner and Acrofighter, yet people will go one way or the other depending on how much they like spears, swords, double sabers, and crossbows. What’s the difference between that and going one way or the other depending on how much they like axes versus twin handguns and crossbows? But apparently you see something I don’t on this issue.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 17:40 ]</font>

xennec
Jan 3, 2008, 08:34 PM
On 2008-01-03 16:52, Angelo wrote:
One thing people need to keep in mind is that the master classes will not make other classes obsolete.

They are just going to be another set of classes along with Forte, Hybrid, Specialist.

I really doubt Sega would make three "Better than everything" classes.

Everyone would just play as those three classes and we'd be right back to PSO.



Reducing the number of classes would make many players quit and prevent more from joining. Why? Americans like diversity. What's the most popular mmorpg in the US right now? World of Warcraft, which has 9 classes. Ever heard of the popular mmorpg Guild Wars? It has 10 classes. If I were to look for a new mmorpg, and I just looked at the boxes, what would seem more pleasing, 3 classes or 10 classes? Another point: what happens when an advanced class player want to join a group of master class players (if master class is a tier above advanced)? lol no wai, you're only advanced, you phail *boot*. I've been booted as a beast GT because of my race. If race gives idiots reason to boot me now, why would SEGA give them another reason?

I'm just trying to put things into perspective. I'm sure one of SEGA's goals is to attract players to PSU, and I'm betting pleasing PSOW boardies isn't.

Nai_Calus
Jan 3, 2008, 08:38 PM
If they're going to try to make classes between the current hybrids and Fortes they're going to need more than 4 new classes, Pillan, so I'm with Reipard here. (Even if his name does, of course, make me want to hunt him down and defeat him to avenge the death of the brother I don't have)

So where are we defining Gunmaster, then? Between FI and FG? Between GT and FG? Masterforce? Between GT and FT? Between WT and FT? Between AT and FT? What about a class between AT and WT?

That makes even less sense than uber-classes.

Also, if I thought axes were worth giving up crossbows and twin handguns for, I'd play a fucking Fortefighter to begin with. Double Sabers aren't that special, and a class with less ATA than FI has would start having problems - Can you imagine a Beast in your FM class trying to use a Carriguine Rucar? You'd miss every other hit.

But this is ST we're talking about, so I'm fully prepared for the master classes to be something utterly stupid and useless, and to be proven wrong. Because really, all I can do is speculate on what I'd like to see. I do not work for Sega. I am not involved in the production of PSU. I do not know what they have planned, and would not presume to claim that my way is right and the one true way.

But your mileage also varies.

Edit: We've known the master classes would be online long before that disclaimer. Or did you miss all the previous debates? Or the timeline Sega posted months ago that listed new classes in January? Also, offline Hunter is vastly different from Online Hunter, why shouldn't entirely seperate games have vastly different classes?

Also for the person whining about PSO: PSO had twelve classes. All of which did different things. All of which had variety PSU can only dream of. A return to the days of FOmars and HUcaseals and RAmarls would make me extremely happy. My FOmar could be full-on support Force AND full-on meleer, at the *same time*. Same L30 support as any other Force, while swinging around partisans and double sabers and casting attack techs as needed and then whipping out a rifle to shoot something I didn't want to get close to. Show me the PSU class with that kind of versatility. It doesn't exist. AT is too limited in its melee options and WT's support is pathetic compared to every other FO hybrid.

I don't know about you, but I LIKED having versatility without having to spend half my life in my room getting a new set of equipment or running to colony 5th floor every other run.

Four classes that can do a little of everything, with variances in what their specializations are, would fill me with unholy joy as finally I would be able to carve out the exact playstyle I want to have, instead of settling for whatever expert class comes closest. Having versatility does not mean an end to variety. I'd play my idea of a Fighmaster as a Fighgunner with techs. John Q. Random Asshole would play it as a Fortefighter with Resta. Someone else would play it as WT with axes. How the hell is that scenario a *reduction* of options? Only on paper, that's how.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ian-KunX on 2008-01-03 17:52 ]</font>

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 08:50 PM
On 2008-01-03 17:38, Ian-KunX wrote:
If they're going to try to make classes between the current hybrids and Fortes they're going to need more than 4 new classes, Pillan, so I'm with Reipard here. (Even if his name does, of course, make me want to hunt him down and defeat him to avenge the death of the brother I don't have)

So where are we defining Gunmaster, then? Between FI and FG? Between GT and FG? Masterforce? Between GT and FT? Between WT and FT? Between AT and FT? What about a class between AT and WT?

That makes even less sense than uber-classes.


Well, if you consider Fighgunner as a ranger class, it would work as either between fG and FG or between fG and GT for the same reasons Fighmaster would work as between fF and FG, fF and AF, and fF and WT when you consider the other 3 as hunter classes. It’s really not that complicated.

Simply put, I’d place FM between fF and any other class melee-wise, GM between fG and any other class range-wise, and MF between fT and any other class tech-wise.

I can easily set up the same relationship tree I did before with the other 2 if you’d like. And, as I’ve stated before, you’re always entitled to your own opinions.

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 08:52 PM
On 2008-01-03 17:50, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 17:38, Ian-KunX wrote:
If they're going to try to make classes between the current hybrids and Fortes they're going to need more than 4 new classes, Pillan, so I'm with Reipard here. (Even if his name does, of course, make me want to hunt him down and defeat him to avenge the death of the brother I don't have)

So where are we defining Gunmaster, then? Between FI and FG? Between GT and FG? Masterforce? Between GT and FT? Between WT and FT? Between AT and FT? What about a class between AT and WT?

That makes even less sense than uber-classes.


Well, if you consider Fighgunner as a ranger class, it would work as either between fG and FG or between fG and GT for the same reasons Fighmaster would work as between fF and FG, fF and AF, and fF and WT when you consider the other 3 as hunter classes. It’s really not that complicated.

Simply put, I’d place FM between fF and any other class melee-wise, GM between fG and any other class range-wise, and MF between fT and any other class tech-wise.

I can easily set up the same relationship tree I did before with the other 2 if you’d like. And, as I’ve stated before, you’re always entitled to your own opinions.



why in the hell a master class be inbetween an advance and expert class?

xennec
Jan 3, 2008, 08:55 PM
I just got an idea. Maybe the master classes will be "masters" of two handed weapons? Kind of like the acro classes except with s ranks in two handed weapons instead of single hand weapons.

Xaeris
Jan 3, 2008, 08:56 PM
I find it unlikely that any class would be made without access to sabers or handguns. Quests and story missions in the game necessitate both their use to the point of installing fixed handgun and saber drops within the mission itself. So that should be kept in mind when speculating on their weapon access.

xennec
Jan 3, 2008, 09:03 PM
On 2008-01-03 17:56, Xaeris wrote:
I find it unlikely that any class would be made without access to sabers or handguns. Quests and story missions in the game necessitate both their use to the point of installing fixed handgun and saber drops within the mission itself. So that should be kept in mind when speculating on their weapon access.



No, I didn't mean weapon access, just S ranks. Acros still have A ranks in two handed weapons. I'm just saying masters would have A rank instead of S rank in single handed weapons.

edit: grammar >.<



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: xennec on 2008-01-03 18:04 ]</font>

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 09:04 PM
On 2008-01-03 17:55, xennec wrote:
I just got an idea. Maybe the master classes will be "masters" of two handed weapons? Kind of like the acro classes except with s ranks in two handed weapons instead of single hand weapons.


That's an interesting theory. It wouldn't surprise me if that turns out to be the case.


On 2008-01-03 17:38, Ian-KunX wrote:
Edit: We've known the master classes would be online long before that disclaimer. Or did you miss all the previous debates? Or the timeline Sega posted months ago that listed new classes in January? Also, offline Hunter is vastly different from Online Hunter, why shouldn't entirely seperate games have vastly different classes?


Sorry, I missed that.

Anyway, to answer the first part, no, the announcement that the Master classes would be added is only around a week old or so. We knew more classes were coming and we assumed they would be the master classes since those names were found in the offline data, but we never had actual confirmation about what the classes would be until then.

And, yes, online hunter is more limited than offline on either version, so it would be easy to argue that online Fighmaster will be a more limited version of the offline one. It’s not like offline Hunter can use techs better than offline Force. And it’s not like PSP Fighmaster has a ridiculous number of S ranks that can even be compared to the current expert classes. I’ll argue that this still makes a basis possible.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 18:06 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-03 18:11 ]</font>

HaydenX
Jan 3, 2008, 09:06 PM
Why is it that people see "master" -force, -gunner, and figh-...and they think "jack."

Jack of all trades and master of NONE!!!

Think about it clearly, by definition, these classes cannot be dabbling in so many things.

My opinion is...

Fighmaster:
S rank...
Saber
Double Saber
Twin Saber
Dagger
Twin Dagger
Claw
Twin Claw
Axe
Spear
Knuckles

PA...
Lvl. 50 Skills

Mastergunner:
S-rank...
Grenade
Laser
Handgun
Twin Handgun
Mechgun
Rifle
Crossbow
Longbow
Shotgun

PA:
Lvl 50 Bullets

Masterforce:
S-ranks...
Rod
Wand
Card
Bow

PA:
Lvl 50 Attack Technic
Lvl 50 Support Technic
Lvl 20 Bullet

Acromaster:
S-ranks...
Madoog
Shadoog
Slicer
Whip
Dagger
Saber
Mechgun
Claw
Card
Wand
Twin Dagger
Handgun
Twin Handgun

PA lvl
Attack Tech lvl 30
Support Tech lvl 40
Skills Lvl 40
Bullets Lvl 30

This would solve the problems...Master classes would be powerful, but would you want a fighmaster on your party when fighting De Rol Le...? A mastergunner when fighting Polavohras (at very high levels...)? How about a masterforce when fighting Jarbas?

The Acromaster, while able to do everything, wouldn't be able to max out anything (as far as master classes go). The lack of two handed weaponry would leave them at a disadvantage when fighting large enemies (multiple small enemies would be their forte). They would also have increased casting and fighting, but have moderately unspecialized and low stats (kind of like fusing a fortetecher with a protranser, but with the weapon selection of GT, AT, and AF combined). Oh, and they would be able to use all non-EX traps.

The Fighmaster would have very high ATP, moderately low ATA, High DFP, low EVA, and low everything else.
25% off cost of skills.

The Mastergunner would have moderately high ATP, very high ATA, Low DFP, High EVA, Low MENT, High STA, and very low TP. They would also have access to all basic traps, damage-focused G traps and no EX Traps.
25% off cost of bullets.

The Masterforce would have an inordinate TP and MENT, but moderate ATA, low ATP, low STA, VERY LOW DFP, and moderate EVA. Oh and 25% off all casting cost.

The acromaster, as described, had those stats, but would have no decreases to costs of use. Because of the multi-weapon system (two one-handed), they will need the most complex palletes. The Acromaster would be at once the easiest and hardest master class to play.

These are my thoughts.

Poncho_Jr
Jan 3, 2008, 09:12 PM
Master classes aren't going to be overpowered
They're probably gonna do the same thing they did with the Fortes...
For example:
Sure they gave me more TP, MST, and EVP when I went Fortetecher from Force. BUT...
They dropped my HP, ATP, ATA, and DFP. D:
Do you know what will happen if I take another dip in HP and DFP!!!!
I'd have only 1200HP and 90 Defense!!!
So, it's only natural they do the same with the Master. If they did that, my stats would probably look like this...

Newman Male 110... Masterforce 10
HP: 1206
ATP: 412
ATA: 201
TP: 2467
DFP: 91
EVP: 1109
MST: 1107

Again, I'm only speculating



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Poncho_Jr on 2008-01-03 18:13 ]</font>

Reipard
Jan 3, 2008, 09:28 PM
I really don’t see the problem with that though. Isn’t that the magnitude of differences we’re talking about between the current classes (without stat increasing items) as it is? If that’s enough for a person to choose one class over another now, why won’t it be then?

To be quite honest, the classes are too close for comfort as it is yes. But it just doesn't make sense to me to pidgeonhole them between classes considering their names all have 'master' in them and due to the already far too closeness of the classes.

But eh, whatever. We'll see what happens.

Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 09:44 PM
Edit, look down the page

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leahcim on 2008-01-03 21:32 ]</font>

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 09:48 PM
On 2008-01-03 18:44, Leahcim wrote:

FighMaster
- Access to all Melee at S rank, accept Whips
- Access to A rank Pistol and shadoog, maybe mechgun too.
- PA caps: 40/10/0/0
- All around stats averaged between Fortefighter and Figunner
- No Speed Boost or PP Regen
- Requirement lvl 15 Fortefighter and Figunner

GunMaster
- Access to all Ranged at S rank, Accept Cards and Bows
- Access to A rank single Saber and Dagger
- PA caps: 10/40/0/0
- All around stats averaged between Fortegunner and Guntecher
- No Speed Boost or PP Regen, or any other A rank Weapons
- Requirement lvl 15 ForteGunner and Guntecher


MasterForce
- Access to all Tech at S rank, Including Whips, Cards and Bows
- Access to A rank Single Saber, Pistol and Dagger
- PA caps: 20/20/30/30 or... 10/10/40/40
- All around stats averaged between Fortetecher and Wartecher
- No Speed Boost or PP Regen
- Requirement lvl 15 ForteTecher and Wartecher




New Idea to balance out the above

All Master Classes suffer from diminished speed with their weapons. Sega can do this, looking at Acro-Speed boosts.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leahcim
on 2008-01-03 18:44 ]</font>


you trying to kill master classes are you?

Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 09:52 PM
You trying to kill PSU are you?

Dein
Jan 3, 2008, 10:08 PM
On 2008-01-03 18:52, Leahcim wrote:
You trying to kill PSU are you?


You have anything besides your own opinion to prove that the master classes would kill PSU unless they're just like your ideas?

Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 10:26 PM
On 2008-01-03 19:08, Dein wrote:

On 2008-01-03 18:52, Leahcim wrote:
You trying to kill PSU are you?


You have anything besides your own opinion to prove that the master classes would kill PSU unless they're just like your ideas?



You have anything but your own opinion that the Master classes should be the be all and end all of the classes in PSU? Why should they be classes tha simply the best at everything? thats stupid

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 10:28 PM
I think you two are on the same side... It's GuardianElite who's saying the Master classes will be the end-all.

GuardianElite
Jan 3, 2008, 10:30 PM
On 2008-01-03 19:28, Pillan wrote:
I think you two are on the same side... It's GuardianElite who's saying the Master classes will be the end-all.



I did not say it was end of all classes jeez what part of next teir you did not understand..

Pillan
Jan 3, 2008, 10:34 PM
On 2008-01-03 19:30, GuardianElite wrote:
I did not say it was end of all classes jeez what part of next teir you did not understand..


Sorry. I was using someone else's description to describe your post. But, anyway, something to make the current classes obsolete, which is the possibility that a lot of us tend to dislike.

Leahcim
Jan 3, 2008, 10:35 PM
Taht would only work if there were next tiers of all existing classes.

Since they are not, I simply see them as another set of expert classes like the fortes, hybrids and specialized.

The purpose of master classes will be to allow you to wield all weapons of that type ( ie.: a class that allows S rank Axes and Double Sabers, or Cross bow and Rifles.)
How ever they will be weaker than the classes that specialize in these weapons so there is no balance issue.

Master classes simply being classes where you could wield the weapons of one type all at S rank in one class would explain why there is no Protranser-master class (since Protranser can already use all traps)

It would also explain why the Acromaster Class was not mentioned, because the point of Acro Classes are their speed boosts, not thier weapon selections

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leahcim on 2008-01-03 19:39 ]</font>

Zael
Jan 3, 2008, 10:48 PM
Oh look, a Master class speculation I can actually agree with, especially because it's against the idea of making three classes making nine obsolete.

*applauds*

Leahcim
Jan 4, 2008, 12:28 AM
On 2008-01-03 19:48, Zael wrote:
Oh look, a Master class speculation I can actually agree with, especially because it's against the idea of making three classes making nine obsolete.

*applauds*



yay, someone makes sense!

Leahcim
Jan 4, 2008, 12:35 AM
(Double Post)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leahcim on 2008-01-03 21:36 ]</font>

Leahcim
Jan 4, 2008, 12:35 AM
FighMaster
- Access to all Melee at S rank, accept Whips
- Access to A rank Pistol and shadoog, maybe mechgun too.
- PA caps: 40/10/0/0
- All around stats averaged between Fortefighter and Figunner
- Requirement lvl 15 Fortefighter and Figunner

GunMaster
- Access to all Ranged at S rank, Accept Cards and Bows
- Access to A rank single Saber and Dagger
- PA caps: 10/40/0/0
- All around stats averaged between Fortegunner and Guntecher
- Requirement lvl 15 ForteGunner and Guntecher


MasterForce
- Access to all Tech at S rank, Including Whips, Cards and Bows
- Access to A rank Single Saber, Pistol and Dagger
- PA caps: 20/20/30/30
- All around stats averaged between Fortetecher and Wartecher
- Requirement lvl 15 ForteTecher and Wartecher




Ideas to balance out the above (not saying they'd all effect, but these are ideas to balance the Master Classes to other Expert Classes)

- Diminished speed with their weapons.
- Lower Stats then corresponding Forte classes
- Higher PP cost

bahk
Jan 4, 2008, 01:00 AM
FighMaster
- Access to all Melee at S rank, accept Whips
- PA caps: 40/0/0/0
- All around stats averaged between Fortefighter and Figunner
- Requirement lvl 15 Fortefighter and Figunner

GunMaster
- Access to all Ranged at S rank, Except Cards
- PA caps: 0/40/0/0
- All around stats averaged between Fortegunner and Guntecher
- Requirement lvl 15 ForteGunner and Guntecher


MasterForce
- Access to all Tech at S rank, Including Whips, Cards and Bows
- PA caps: 20/20/40/40
- All around stats averaged between Fortetecher and Wartecher
-Slower casting time
- Requirement lvl 15 ForteTecher and Wartecher




Ideas to balance out the above (not saying they'd all effect, but these are ideas to balance the Master Classes to other Expert Classes)

- No racial stat bonuses
- Lower Stats then corresponding Forte classes
- Normal PP cost (no forte reduction)



I like my list. It's shiny and yummy.

Edit: Missed a bold. I fail it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bahk on 2008-01-03 22:06 ]</font>

Pillan
Jan 4, 2008, 01:06 AM
On 2008-01-03 22:00, bahk wrote:
- No racial stat bonuses


It's Sonic Team. There's a higher likelyhood that the respective races get a 10% bonus in a class than none.

bahk
Jan 4, 2008, 01:08 AM
On 2008-01-03 22:06, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 22:00, bahk wrote:
- No racial stat bonuses


It's Sonic Team. There's a higher likelyhood that the respective races get a 10% bonus in a class than none.



Well fine then, as long as they take the class stats a little lower to compensate. I guess that would work, since then the master classes would only have decent stats in the race corresponding to it.

-Tidus_415-
Jan 4, 2008, 02:26 AM
It would be nice if masterclasses were for Humans & Newmans only for their lack of a "special". We know that'll never happen but eh. It's a way to sort of balence them since these 3 or 4 retarded masterclasses are probably going to make the other 9 classes useless.

Aviendha
Jan 4, 2008, 02:29 AM
On 2008-01-03 22:08, bahk wrote:

On 2008-01-03 22:06, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 22:00, bahk wrote:
- No racial stat bonuses


It's Sonic Team. There's a higher likelyhood that the respective races get a 10% bonus in a class than none.



Well fine then, as long as they take the class stats a little lower to compensate. I guess that would work, since then the master classes would only have decent stats in the race corresponding to it.


Great, lets force people to play a given class based on their race.

bahk
Jan 4, 2008, 02:34 AM
On 2008-01-03 23:29, Aviendha wrote:

On 2008-01-03 22:08, bahk wrote:

On 2008-01-03 22:06, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 22:00, bahk wrote:
- No racial stat bonuses


It's Sonic Team. There's a higher likelyhood that the respective races get a 10% bonus in a class than none.



Well fine then, as long as they take the class stats a little lower to compensate. I guess that would work, since then the master classes would only have decent stats in the race corresponding to it.


Great, lets force people to play a given class based on their race.



I think you took that wrong. I thought the idea was ok because it would give that respective race an edge in the fighting style it's a master of. You know, like being a master of a class. Class master.
I didn't say fighmaster would be beast only. I didn't say all beasts had to be fighmasters. There's no forcing here.

Laranas
Jan 4, 2008, 02:35 AM
On 2008-01-03 23:29, Aviendha wrote:

On 2008-01-03 22:08, bahk wrote:

On 2008-01-03 22:06, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-03 22:00, bahk wrote:
- No racial stat bonuses
It's Sonic Team. There's a higher likelyhood that the respective races get a 10% bonus in a class than none.
Well fine then, as long as they take the class stats a little lower to compensate. I guess that would work, since then the master classes would only have decent stats in the race corresponding to it.
Great, lets force people to play a given class based on their race.I was going to say something about the amount of Beasts who happen to be Fortefighers, but I can't word it the right way...

Shishi-O
Jan 4, 2008, 02:46 AM
On 2008-01-02 23:16, MegamanX wrote:
I really hate the idea of these Master Classes... the more I hear about them... I just have these visions of people doing nothing but striving for master classes and the obsession of progression.
Progression is the disease in all MMORPG's... nobody is content with what's they have now or what level they are now... it's always "I MUST HUNT DOWN THIS, or I MUST POWER LEVEL!!!"
When is the last time you've done a few missions just because they're badass?

Wow, I went off topic a bit <_>

On Topic: They better gimp the hell out of those master classes somehow to make them suitable in competition to the Forte's and other hybrids... because the whole idea sounds like it's trying to make the game fall into only 4 super-classes now... I prefer the 9 experts we already have =/

it is an excuse to give us higher lvl missions, a new planet and new uber hot s-ranx, i for one welcome them.

Shishi-O
Jan 4, 2008, 03:21 AM
On 2008-01-03 11:31, AlphaDragoon wrote:

On 2008-01-03 07:39, CAVAOUBIEN wrote:
Alpha, your argument is moot if you have a minimum level requirement on the Master classes. Why would you make fun of a class when it is an intermediate class. I mean, do you make fun of Hunter, Ranger and Force classes? No, like everyone, you consider them as a step towards a better class giving you access to different (more fun, more powerful) game styles. You don't bitch against the forte classes because they just made the Hunter, Ranger and Force classes obsolete.

But to answer your question,yes: I am indeed longing for a class which allows me to play the game style of my characters without some of the current compromises connected to the forte or hybrid classes.

Judging by the countless threads on some of the "mysterious" limitations to the forte classes or some hybrid classes, I am not the only one.

Again, I don't see a problem with this if it introduces a logical progression path for my character(s) wich I can access providing I have a certain character level and whatever job level required. On the other hand, introducing a super gimped 'Master" class makes no sense whatsoever to me I'm afraid.

Minimum level requirement...are you joking? So it'll make people spam the highest MP run until they have the Master classes available. In the long run...everyone will still be one of three classes. If it was like the advanced classes where there were SEVERAL types that do DIFFERENT THINGS, then it'd be a completely different matter.

By your logic, we should nix all the advanced types and simply adjust Hunter/Ranger/Force, because all we need is three classes. That flew in PSO, don't think it'll fly nowadays.

When you logically think about it, there's a limit to the amount of types you can have. With the advanced types eventually they'll make every kind of combination they can make, then you get to the Master classes. Unfortunately once you get to Master classes as Sega has them it doesn't expand the scope like the advanced types did, it limits it, because there are no Master hybrid types.

What would happen then after the Master classes? One singular "uber class" that does everything? But it seems that's exactly what you want...

...i don't think you get that your versatility with master classes will, expand ur ability and power.

ie; as a gunmaster u can play gt/ fg/ fi in degrees of pwnsome, with wichever range s-ranx u see fit/ fits ur playstyle.

as gt/fg/fi u can only play as gt/fg/fi and be restricted by ur s-rank selection...

master is infinately better.

Rayokarna
Jan 4, 2008, 03:38 AM
Having the Master Classes at lvl 50 in there respective PA section and 0 in everything else AND give them lower stats is gonna make them near impossible to play. If your going up against a group of enemies that is resistant to your type there is nothing you can do. I don't see why Sega will kill off a set of classes like that. Reguardless if every S Rank of that type is in one classes, you have nothing to drop back on at all except for Acromaster, but AM with 20 and 30 PA caps wont work. If anything the Master Class seletion should be near the 20. It was said there was going to be a class lvl increase to 20...

Chuck_Norris
Jan 4, 2008, 03:39 AM
On 2008-01-03 11:31, AlphaDragoon wrote:
What would happen then after the Master classes?



Maybe a Create A Class option? You would get a set number of S ranks you can have, a set number of A ranks, a special ability, and what you need to reach that class.

Rayokarna
Jan 4, 2008, 03:45 AM
On 2008-01-04 00:39, Chuck_Norris wrote:

On 2008-01-03 11:31, AlphaDragoon wrote:
What would happen then after the Master classes?



Maybe a Create A Class option? You would get a set number of S ranks you can have, a set number of A ranks, a special ability, and what you need to reach that class.



That will be freaking awesome, saying that, that might be the layout for the Master Classes XD

Yusaku_Kudou
Jan 4, 2008, 03:50 AM
On 2008-01-02 23:52, galaxy wrote:
this is my speculation of what the masterclasses will turn into:

essentially, they are supreme specialization. they will be the BEST at their playstyle, and just that. some stats will be higher and some will be lower than their forte counterparts. for example, fortetecher and masterforce: masterforce will have higher TP and MST, but lower everything else (except maybe eva). lower HP, lower ATA, lower DEF...pretty much geared for tech use specifically and thats it (no ranged).

fortefighter and fighmaster: fighmaster will have higher HP, ATP, and DEF, but lower everything else.
fortegunner and gunmaster: gunmaster will have higher ATA and EVA, and lower everything else.

does this make sense? like a super specialization. so they aren't game breaking, but still unique....


My idea would be to make master classes only available for lv200s to give them something to do, but starting stats terrible and a long time to level, but no gimps at lv15 master. Total power you have to work hard for.

physic
Jan 4, 2008, 04:48 AM
About the whole psp thing, i doubt it will be the same, simply because the psp doesnt have forte or hybrid classes at all. It seems like in psp they set up masterclasses as the only second tier classes, and with that in mind, i dont know they would fit in the current job systems.

Masterclasses could in fact be an overclass, simply make the requirements very high and the progression very slow.
say for example fighmaster required level 20 Ff, figunner, and wartecher, and leveled its job extremely slow, starting out very gimp and at level 20-30 becoming slightly stronger
in this case it wouldnt exactly make every job obsolete, but would make them stepping stones

Of course these are all just speculations, it will be interesting to see how it will go down, will probably be at least a month from now though.

Leahcim
Jan 4, 2008, 05:38 AM
On 2008-01-03 22:00, bahk wrote:
FighMaster
- Access to all Melee at S rank, accept Whips
- PA caps: 40/0/0/0
- All around stats averaged between Fortefighter and Figunner
- Requirement lvl 15 Fortefighter and Figunner

GunMaster
- Access to all Ranged at S rank, Except Cards
- PA caps: 0/40/0/0
- All around stats averaged between Fortegunner and Guntecher
- Requirement lvl 15 ForteGunner and Guntecher


MasterForce
- Access to all Tech at S rank, Including Whips, Cards and Bows
- PA caps: 20/20/40/40
- All around stats averaged between Fortetecher and Wartecher
-Slower casting time
- Requirement lvl 15 ForteTecher and Wartecher




Ideas to balance out the above (not saying they'd all effect, but these are ideas to balance the Master Classes to other Expert Classes)

- No racial stat bonuses
- Lower Stats then corresponding Forte classes
- Normal PP cost (no forte reduction)



I like my list. It's shiny and yummy.



This works too, only problem is... where would Shadoogs go? =/

Leahcim
Jan 4, 2008, 05:45 AM
If the above reflects what the master classes end up like, they would fit fine into the mix:

(Forte Classes)
fF - Best Melee Damage
fG - Best Gunner Damage
fT - Best TECH damage

(Hybrid Classes)
FG - mixes Melee and Gunner offensives, can use traps for SEs, best with Doublesabers.
WT - Mixes Melee and TECH offensives, only hunter that can use Resta, great defencively
GT - Supportive gunner, with great supportive TECH capabilities.

(Specialized Classes)
PT - best with trap warfair, can use heavy weapons
AF - speedy hunter with best capability with onehanded weapons.
AT - speedy force with best capability with onehanded TECH weapons, best with support TECHS.

(Master Classes)
FM - Access to all Hunter weapons
GM - Access to all Gunner weapons
MF - Acces to all TECH weapons

Rayokarna
Jan 4, 2008, 06:40 AM
Why would you lower Master Force Tech speed when its almost a mirror image of Fortetecher. You might aswell play FT if thats the case. =/

Leahcim
Jan 4, 2008, 06:50 AM
On 2008-01-04 03:40, Rayokarna wrote:
Why would you lower Master Force Tech speed when its almost a mirror image of Fortetecher. You might aswell play FT if thats the case. =/



That would be the exact reason for lower speed.

Master Techer would basically just have level 40 Attack and Support techniques ( does not exist at the moment). way to balance this, bring down its speed so it doesn't destroy Acrotecher and Fortecher, who specialize in the two different areas

Rayokarna
Jan 4, 2008, 07:32 AM
On 2008-01-04 03:50, Leahcim wrote:

On 2008-01-04 03:40, Rayokarna wrote:
Why would you lower Master Force Tech speed when its almost a mirror image of Fortetecher. You might aswell play FT if thats the case. =/



That would be the exact reason for lower speed.

Master Techer would basically just have level 40 Attack and Support techniques ( does not exist at the moment). way to balance this, bring down its speed so it doesn't destroy Acrotecher and Fortecher, who specialize in the two different areas



That just means Master Force will never be able to solo and support well either. People just won't even bother. If anything it should increase tech speed. In battle, the split second can be key to everyone. To slow down a classes actions is almost criminal. A classes speed should be based on there weaponry unless its given a speed bouns.

If you do the same thing for GunMaster and FighMaster, there will be no point of playing them in the later missions when most enemies will have one hit KO attacks I guess =/

Reipard
Jan 4, 2008, 07:53 AM
That's pretty much my point in a nutshell when it comes to pidgeonholing them in the Expert classes. Nerf FM, GM and MF too much to make them not overshadow the existing classes and they don't become viable options anymore. Make them decent and they start stepping on everything's toes.

Arika
Jan 4, 2008, 08:27 AM
My ideas:

Fighmaster:
50/10/0/0
S-rank: Axe, Sword, Double Saber, Saber, Twin Saber, Dagger, Twin Dagger, Claw, Twin Claw, Spear, Knuckles, Shadoog
A-rank: Handgun
Gunmaster:
10/50/0/0
S-rank: Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Laser Cannon, Shotgun, Machine Gun, Crossbow, Handgun, Twin Handgun
A-rank: Saber, Dagger,

Masterforce:
1/10/50/50
S-rank: Rod, Wand, Madoog, Bow, Card, Whip
A-rank: Saber, Handgun,

Acromaster:
30/30/30/30
S-rank: Slicer, Whip, Saber, Dagger, Claw, Wand, Twin Saber, Twin Dagger, Twin Claw ,Card, Handgun, Shadoog, Madoog ,Twin Handgun
A-rank: , , Knuckles, Machinegun



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Arika on 2008-01-04 05:29 ]</font>

Yusaku_Kudou
Jan 4, 2008, 09:49 AM
I'm gonna have to mention my idea again. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif I still say level 200 requirement for the master classes. Start the master classes really weak a la Protranser, but much weaker and continually somewhat weak until they start getting up in job levels. When they hit 15 or 20 (whatever it will end up being), just let them go all-out powerhouse. If you've hit level 200, then you deserve some number crunching the scale of Thunder Cannon's description--rivaling that of a natural disaster.

Pillan
Jan 4, 2008, 11:49 AM
On 2008-01-04 05:27, Arika wrote:
Fighmaster:
50/10/0/0
S-rank: Axe, Sword, Double Saber, Saber, Twin Saber, Dagger, Twin Dagger, Claw, Twin Claw, Spear, Knuckles, Shadoog
A-rank: Handgun


Is it supposed to say S rank Shadoogs?

Tita
Jan 4, 2008, 03:56 PM
wouldn't it be hilarious if it was more like:

Fighmaster
50/0/0/0
S rank axes ONLY
A rank handguns and sabers

PewPewmaster
0/50/0/0
S rank rifles ONLY
A rank xbows and dagger

Techmaster
0/0/50/30
S rank rods ONLY
A rank cards and wands

Aviendha
Jan 4, 2008, 04:43 PM
On 2008-01-04 12:56, Tita wrote:
wouldn't it be hilarious if it was more like:

Fighmaster
50/0/0/0
S rank axes ONLY
A rank handguns and sabers

PewPewmaster
0/50/0/0
S rank rifles ONLY
A rank xbows and dagger

Techmaster
0/0/50/0
S rank rods ONLY
A rank cards and wands


Fix'd Techmaster for you.

SirenV
Jan 4, 2008, 05:42 PM
On 2008-01-04 05:27, Arika wrote:
My ideas:
Masterforce:
1/10/50/50
S-rank: Rod, Wand, Madoog, Bow, Card, Whip
A-rank: Saber, Handgun,


Only problem here is that cards would only fire two projectiles with level 10 bullets, and that sort of ruins the benefit of having them at all, and S whip would be pointless without atp damage modifier from a leveled Skill PA. They could probably get a bigger stun range with their techs 31 or 41+.

I'm sort of thinking that the master classes are going to resemble the offline jobs (with some modifications to make them fit for online), but yes, speculation really is pointless.

Chuck_Norris
Jan 4, 2008, 07:14 PM
On 2008-01-04 08:49, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-04 05:27, Arika wrote:
Fighmaster:
50/10/0/0
S-rank: Axe, Sword, Double Saber, Saber, Twin Saber, Dagger, Twin Dagger, Claw, Twin Claw, Spear, Knuckles, Shadoog
A-rank: Handgun


Is it supposed to say S rank Shadoogs?



Who else would have it? They're useless to gunners, and there's no way techer is getting them.

Beisde, the only class with S shadoogs is a FIGHTER CLASS.

Leahcim
Jan 4, 2008, 07:14 PM
-_- We're getting level 50 PAs now? lol...

Rayokarna
Jan 4, 2008, 07:34 PM
I have a question, wasn't the expert classes first name 'intermidiate classes'?

Pillan
Jan 4, 2008, 07:37 PM
On 2008-01-04 16:14, Chuck_Norris wrote:
Beisde, the only class with S shadoogs is a FIGHTER CLASS.


A fighter class that requires RA 5 and HU 3...

And GT, which requires RA 5 and FO 3, also gets S shadoogs...

Seems the pattern so far is the RA high partials get S Shadoogs, not the HU ones.

It's the difference between being useful and balanced. Obviously S Shadoogs would be useful to Fortefighter to go with their single hand melee, but they don't get them do they?

Rainu
Jan 4, 2008, 07:37 PM
On 2008-01-04 16:14, Leahcim wrote:
-_- We're getting level 50 PAs now? lol...


We've seen level 41+ techs cast before, in videos. They exist.

KRKcl17
Jan 4, 2008, 09:58 PM
On 2008-01-02 23:59, BluCast20xx wrote:
either they upgrade the protranser with lv 40 skills and bullets....or create a "Acromaster" or "Trapmaster" master class or something.



Acromaster is in the game data somewhere, so you may be on to something.