Why were Wartechers left out?

[Elley]

I don't understand why us Wartechers don't get level 21 buffs. Guntechers were raised... acrotechers get them as well. Are Wartechers that much more ridiculous in combat as to warrant a semi nerf in the support magic department?




0:)

[beatrixkiddo]

Guess so.

[Dragwind]

Oh teh noes....

WT is fine without them. Skills at 30 and attack techs at 30 makes you mostly a fighting/nuking class. Support at 20 is good enough for most of WT needs.

[Umberger]

I think they did that to make Wartechers an attacking type, and Guntechers a supporting type.

[Danger_Girl]

I think we should get 40 skills, 40 attack techs, 40 bullets, and 40 support techs.

But I might be a little biased.

[ChaosAngel92]

On 2008-01-04 23:12, Umberger wrote:
I think they did that to make Wartechers an attacking type, and Guntechers a supporting type.



So, the remain question is, why do they have S rank wands?

[Anduril]

On 2008-01-04 23:43, ChaosAngel92 wrote:

On 2008-01-04 23:12, Umberger wrote:
I think they did that to make Wartechers an attacking type, and Guntechers a supporting type.



So, the remain question is, why do they have S rank wands?

For Level 30 Attack TECHs maybe? I mean no matter how much PP a Madoog has its TP usually can't compare to a wand.

EDIT: Damn punctuation errors. >_<

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Anduril on 2008-01-04 23:51 ]</font>

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

What are these "attack techs" of which you speak? Do they do any damage?

[Finae]

Cry more

[Xaeris]

[b]Are Wartechers that much more ridiculous in combat as to warrant a semi nerf in the support magic department?




0:)



Yes actually. See, WTs get a 30 melee cap and the weapons to make it worth a damn. While support techs have some kind of odd allure that I can't figure out for the life of me, being able to buff 5/10% better than a Megistaride isn't even close to being worth that.

[Orin654]

Because Wartechers Suck! THE END!!!


*Braces*

[Indica]

Wartechers will be phased out when Master Force comes out.

Switch to Fortetecher while you can to get LV40 techs.

[NNEONateDogg]

On 2008-01-05 00:19, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
What are these "attack techs" of which you speak? Do they do any damage?

lol

[Pillan]

On 2008-01-05 01:24, Indica wrote:
Wartechers will be phased out when Master Force comes out.


Why would Masterforce kill Wartecher? There's nothing in the name that even suggests it can melee.

But, yeah, I guess ST assumed 30 skills + 30 support = overpowered. I still don't see why they didn't go ahead and give Wartecher 40 attack techs though.

[Powder Keg]

On 2008-01-05 02:28, Pillan wrote:

On 2008-01-05 01:24, Indica wrote:
Wartechers will be phased out when Master Force comes out.


Why would Masterforce kill Wartecher? There's nothing in the name that even suggests it can melee.

But, yeah, I guess ST assumed 30 skills + 30 support = overpowered. I still don't see why they didn't go ahead and give Wartecher 40 attack techs though.


Because FT would be incredibly useless then.

Wartecher is fine where it is. It's a strong magic class with really good HP and DFP. 30 skills and 20 bullets also? Nothing wrong with that in the least.

[Akaimizu]

It's kind of true. The thing is, before the expansion, the Guntecher (not the Wartecher) had the big *Support class* moniker attached to them. Not by the players, but by STs very own words printed in PSU. In fact, there was more emphasis on Support written for them than even Fortetecher, and they also could support. However, when things turned around, they kind of messed up on that support part where any tech casting class had better support than GTs.

A small messup because they felt that not giving a TP requirement to buffs and debuffs was enough because they could not risk giving GTs strong attack techs. (That's not what the class was about) It's one of the defining reasons why Attack techs and Support techs were separated statistics for the expansion. It was to fix the fact that techs were too generally grouped together to make GTs work the way they wanted them to. They realized that locking them at level 10 techs, pre-expansion, also meant that they had lesser healing ability and the shortest ranged support techs.

Of course, back then it also meant that the GTs were forced to utilize things like Twin Handguns and Mech Guns for the aspect of monster distraction for all the times they would never, otherwise, be able to reach a team member for an emergency heal. Bad thing is, back then, the Twin handguns did not flinch mobs at all and it was all about fast repeated shots having the best statistic to work a mob algorithm to attack the GT instead of the other potential victim. It was my workaround, of the issue, which I vehemently posted quite a few times to this forum alone.

Also, they noticed GTs using more ranged weapons to stay out of battle since they gave them low DFP and MST. This caused more times when the GT, for safety reasons, had to stay out of range (often) from being able to help their teammates. That is, unless they took the great risk of dying. Something I had to do countless times. Mobility only works, until you have to cast techs in the middle of the battlefield.

Nowadays, the GTs Evade stat is among the worst. Which means, even more reasons they should avoid getting close to anything. That means, they still have the thrill-seeking aspect of risk-taking in order to land the good in-battle trap; but they're given a full assortment of improvements to allow them to stay further away so that doing their job doesn't mean always putting themselves in harms way. Now they really aren't a class meant to take any hits, but also a class that has more resources to not take those hits.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-01-05 04:44 ]</font>

[biggabertha]

Wartechers have got it awesome, they have versatility that make them really comfortable in both solo and in parties. Truth be told, they're like a laid back class with their buffs, large area attacks from both melee and TECHNICs, access to the second longest ranged weapon in the game and to top it all off, an incredibly diverse spread of weapons.

Shame everyone can't be pleased with what they have.

[Elley]

Hey, I wasn't all that upset. The point of this thread was for you guys to explain the balance to me. I didn't understand why Wartechers had the worst support techs out of the magic / hybrid classes. It makes a little more sense to me now.




0:)

[benover]

can some1 tell me were all this crap about wt comes from wt are fine as they are like artea said. we dont need lv 40 tecks are meela stuff and magic fine were the 3rd best magic uses in psu and was all its crap about being fased out about. a pissed off warteck

[benover]

sorry stupid page dident load so read angry stuff on first page still half a sleep 2

[Laranas]

I agree with the majority. Wartechers focus on high survivability, not support. Lv20 buffs is a 14% increase on all your stats, and frankly it's just a much cheaper alternative than buying buffs from the NPC. WT isn't meant to support, but you have the Lv20 there just in case another party member can't handle it.

[Zorak000]

I dont care who you are (unless you are an elitest), If you give WT a try I bet you a shiny nickel thet you will at least have fun playing one

[Pillan]

On 2008-01-05 02:33, Artea wrote:
Because FT would be incredibly useless then.

Wartecher is fine where it is. It's a strong magic class with really good HP and DFP. 30 skills and 20 bullets also? Nothing wrong with that in the least.


25% more base TP, even more TP from higher level buffs, and a 20% total TP bonus on rods says a Wartecher wouldn't compare to Fortetecher with 50 attack techs. That's the main reason I don't see why not. The techs still wouldn't compare to it's melee damage, nor would they compare to Fortetecher's tech damage, but there would actually be some argument to use them (like there is with AT, regardless of how little validity that argument has...).


Not to mention one of the primary complaints is that they don't have a level 40 in some branch of art, plus WT requires FO 5 and HU 3, so it would make sense for a tech limit to be higher than melee. It seems like the easiest way to make everyone satisfied without any real effect on the balance.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-05 09:38 ]</font>

[Randomness]

Wartecher doesn't really need them, does it?

As has been stated, they get 30 in both attack techs and skills, and have the ATP and TP to make good use of both. Furthermore, they get a 20 in bullets, meaning they can make good use of thier bows. Even with only 20 in support techs, they get excellent power behind the usual healing techs as well, and have great HP to boot.

Overall, they can deal good damage, theres nothing in the game with resists they can't get around, and they can take a serious pounding and live without using a single item.

Do they really NEED buffs on top of all this?

[chaostroop3]

war techers recently got S rank knuckles and.... something else....right?

[Laranas]

On 2008-01-05 09:38, chaostroop3 wrote:
war techers recently got S rank knuckles and.... something else....right?

Twin Claws... two weapons my Wartecher didn't touch to begin with.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I like Wartecher just as it is, I don't think they need level 30 support, level 40 skills, or level 40 nukes. Obviously, they won't nuke as strong as a Fortetecher, but they have a lot more survivability with their higher HP, DFP, and such.

[LTrav2k]

It's already covered, but if you honestly combined level 21 buffs with level 21 debuffs and level 30 melee skills... it'd be too much advantage for one type. There'd barely be a reason to play any other type because the extra support would take us beyond the point of performing most jobs reasonably well. With the extra 10% stat swing from 21+ buffs/debuffs, we'd probably end up being the answer to most missions.

Leaving support techs at level 20 makes us more offensive minded, since we know our buffs are just as good as store bought items. We can still save the day with resta/reverser, but it has definitely thrown us more into combat than worrying about the rest of the team so much. After the update, I switched to just using buff items and solely debuffing in general terms of support.

[Pillan]

On 2008-01-05 10:03, Shiroryuu wrote:
Obviously, they won't nuke as strong as a Fortetecher, but they have a lot more survivability with their higher HP, DFP, and such.


With a straight 55% or so output advantage between the rod buff, base TP, and buff level, (excluding the rod TP advantage) I don't see how it could possibly make anyone consider Wartecher a better option. (It reduces to a 30% advantage when both are using wands or madoogs.) The survivability advantage isn't as high as the straight tech power advantage after armor and buffs are taken into account.

But, yeah, obviously everyone else sees something I don't. It wouldn't be the first time, really.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-05 12:07 ]</font>

[l_Will_l]

On 2008-01-05 09:18, Pillan wrote:

25% more base TP, even more TP from higher level buffs, and a 20% total TP bonus on rods says a Wartecher wouldn't compare to Fortetecher with 50 attack techs. That's the main reason I don't see why not. The techs still wouldn't compare to it's melee damage, nor would they compare to Fortetecher's tech damage, but there would actually be some argument to use them (like there is with AT, regardless of how little validity that argument has...)


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2008-01-05 09:38 ]</font>



Ok Sure FT is better at Attacks TECHSs. It better be because its supposed to be. And another thought, We dont even have lvl 50 TECHs yet. So with that in mind, How can u speculate what WT will have by the time we get them. WT did just get S rank Knuckles and Twin Daggers. And I believe we also got S rank wands at release of AOI. That alone is a huge improvement on the job. So unless someone knows segas longterm plans with the jobs and what they will change, I dont think you can speculate like that. All jobs are ment to be played differently. you cant compare WT to FT only for Attack TECHs.

[Rayokarna]

Give WT lvl 30 Support. pfft.

I would rather see WT with Axes insted http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Pillan]

On 2008-01-05 12:13, l_Will_l wrote:
Ok Sure FT is better at Attacks TECHSs. It better be because its supposed to be. And another thought, We dont even have lvl 50 TECHs yet. So with that in mind, How can u speculate what WT will have by the time we get them. WT did just get S rank Knuckles and Twin Daggers. And I believe we also got S rank wands at release of AOI. That alone is a huge improvement on the job. So unless someone knows segas longterm plans with the jobs and what they will change, I dont think you can speculate like that. All jobs are ment to be played differently. you cant compare WT to FT only for Attack TECHs.


Sorry if I confused you, but I was saying that following the current pattern of tech growth rates, WT would still be weaker than fT in terms of tech damage even if WT had level 50 attack techs and fT was still limited to level 40 because the rod buff and the base TP gap are just that high.

S ranks really don't add up to much and the addition of knuckles and twin claws really made WT weaker because now they'll be distracted by S ranks like every other melee class, lowering their output below what they would have had with a high percentage/high grind A rank. But, yeah, you can't argue that they are an addition and that still does count as part of the balance. But did that addition really make all of those people who play Fortefighter for S knuckles and twin claws jump on the WT bandwagon? Did most WTs even notice?

My major complaint is that I don't see why ST didn't just go all the way with WT's attack techs, given fT's rediculous advantage. My point is "fT will still be a lot better and less people will claim WT sucks based on PA limitations." It's the easiest way to get rid of the WT complaints without really changing anything.

[l_Will_l]

I see where your comin from. But alot of it also depends on the person playing. Because in my situation sometimes, yes its good to have the S rank variants, depending if you have good equipment. like for instance i have 2 Twin Daggers, A rank Dark Straal 30% 4/10 fire or my Dagger of serafi 36% 3/10 now i do alot more damage with my DOS than i would have done with my Dark Straal. And i dont play a job to use a specific wep. I have pretty much all jobs capped again. with the exception of AT at 10 and my AF at 14 atm. All im saying is that if you know a good strategy that makes the job work better than why not. ive been in plenty of partys, even last night for instance where the forces suck. I was playing my lvl 54 Male Cast and i was Soling everyone.

[Pillan]

On 2008-01-05 12:45, l_Will_l wrote:
I see where your comin from. But alot of it also depends on the person playing. Because in my situation sometimes, yes its good to have the S rank variants, depending if you have good equipment. like for instance i have 2 Twin Daggers, A rank Dark Straal 30% 4/10 fire or my Dagger of serafi 36% 3/10 now i do alot more damage with my DOS than i would have done with my Dark Straal.

My point there isn't that you can't get lucky with S ranks, but rather that you don't need luck with A ranks. You can't find any more Dagger of Serafi's until next Christmas, so you're stuck at 36%, and Dagger of Serafi, like many S ranks, only comes in one element. But you can keep synthing Dark Straals until you get 50% in every element, and then buy A + 10 grinders for cheap to pretty much guarantee a full pallet of 7/7+ 50% Dark Straals.

But, yeah, that's straying from the general point. A couple more S ranks are nice, but Wartecher is still probably the lowest rated class. I'm just presenting an easy method to change this without really hurting anyone besides Acrotecher (which I'd say is a desirable relative nerf).

[l_Will_l]

Yeah I see where your coming from. But again not everyone is loaded to the point where they can just mass synth A ranks to get 50%'s I dont have that much meseta. I just play the best strategy I can with what I have.

[Kylie]

I'm glad. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif I was stressing over the pressure to level buffs.

[Mewnie]

I started as a FF, but switched to WT and found it more fun and interesting to play. After AoTI, it got even better :3



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mewnie on 2008-01-05 17:08 ]</font>