FTs: the Biggest Bunch of Babies (BBB)?

[SolomonGrundy]

from this thread: http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=168588&forum=22&start=15&26

ok, so they release a strong wand. Immediately we get a thread about FTs being 'useless' or rods being outclassed.

The fact is that FTs do DOUBLE the damage of other tech users. Can you imagine if fortefighter did DOUBLE the damage of all other melee weapon users? Or if ForteGunners did DOUBLE the damage of Guntechers?

So ok, they release a wand which (when grinded properly), might give wand users a 15% boost in damage. Of course FTs can use wands too. Now that only do 170% more damage instead of 200% and they can still use the gosh darned thing - it's not like this is an S rank shadoog (which I admit, would have been more egregious).

I'm pretty tired of seeing posts like these. I bet there would be less outrage if fighters got nerfed a bit. (I think they are rather strong right now) Then again, they are the most likely to be killed by megids/dambarta/spinning attacks/etc, since they are in the front lines and armor is not as protective as it used to be.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2008-01-31 12:32 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

... and then its like "so how much damage do you do?" and it's either:
1) JAW DROPPING amount but NOT ENOUGH because Fortefighter hits makes bigger numbers with Anga Jabroga, against huge mobs or with Gravity Break against single targets. Now that gunners and techers have had time to catch up with their skill levels, I've seen lasers and linear techs do enough damage that Chikki really isn't so special any more. The power-hit is nice and damaging, yeah... but so slow there might not be anything left to tag with the first, let alone both.

2) HALF what any random fT you've seen in the last week was doing because these guys think Diga is the world's most damaging tech or Shadoogs are the bomb-diggity for casting damage spells.

... but don't hate the playa, hate the game.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-01-31 13:08 ]</font>

[Anduril]

Though I'm a fT, I have to agree with you. I mean it's just a game, there's no need to get pissy about it, you're supposed to be playing for fun. So what if they made this wand? I'm pretty sure that there isn't a large chance that tons of people with synth them and make every other casting weapon obselete. But then again, a lot of people complain about things for the sake of complaining, which in turn irritates others.

[Mystil]

You're right when looking at it from that POV, but in the eyes of a techer, you'll be met with the eyes of condenscension. Truth of the matter is, techers want what was taken from them. The top tier damage dealer.

[MrNomad]

No offense to the OP's idea, but to be honest fT has been going through a LOT of BS up until the Rod boost. Being one of the best classes in game to being one of the lowest isn't a pretty site to behold, but they did it right with the rod boost. But now...A wand that has a base TP almost as good as a rod? Sure, it has to be grinded to 10 BEFORE it gets those stats but....Actually, nvm, I see no problem here, have fun breakin-erm, grinding those wands http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[panzer_unit]

So max level Dambarta on a stacked rod with buffs does how much per tick now?

[MrNomad]

On 2008-01-31 14:30, panzer_unit wrote:
So max level Dambarta on a stacked rod with buffs does how much per tick now?

So A slicer with lvl 40 chikki does how much now? To how many targets now?

Unless panzars comment wasn't meant for me >.>



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MrNomad on 2008-01-31 14:41 ]</font>

[Chaosgyro]

All of this piss 'n grits angst stems from the mid-1970s. In that misbegotten time some geeks got together and made a game called Dungeons and Dragons. In said game they devised that the "wizard" should be a class for more "advanced" players who would be required to think harder, but would be rewarded with a greater level of power. Thus was a great rift among gamers born. Fighters of every ilk would forever be known as "Conan the Cavemoron" while their spell slinging brethren prided themselves on being the fictional equivalent of the merger between Einstein, Stephen Hawking, and God.

Fast forward to Sonic Team. They devised that the description of "force" should express that the class be for more "advanced" players. However, someone forgot to mention that in computer games, playing a caster is as easy as - or easier than - playing a fighter. Both point themselves at the offending beastie, grab the biggest beastie-slayer they have handy, and proceed to click a button until it surrenders the loot. Sadly, these genius savants cum epeen bragarts decended from the wizards of old never tire in their reckless pursuit of making everyone, everywhere bow down. At least once.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2008-01-31 13:18, Mystil wrote:
You're right when looking at it from that POV, but in the eyes of a techer, you'll be met with the eyes of condenscension. Truth of the matter is, techers want what was taken from them. The top tier damage dealer.


and THAT, my friends, is the problem. FTs thinking that they should be the top tier damage dealer.

If techer feel condescended, it is because they are capeable of support, and some CHOOSE not to do it. Other's do. When players party up with a FT who chooses support, they see the benefit. When they then party up with a FT who chooses not to support, they feel the gap.


No offense to the OP's idea, but to be honest fT has been going through a LOT of BS up until the Rod boost. Being one of the best classes in game to being one of the lowest isn't a pretty site to behold, but they did it right with the rod boost. But now...A wand that has a base TP almost as good as a rod?

if anyone lost first place, it was Fortegunners, not Fortetechers. DoTs went from king, to almost useless. Elemental Bullets gained no accuracy nor extra bullet or other 'cool' effect at 31+ (they cost more though).








<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2008-01-31 15:15 ]</font>

[rogue_robot]

Actually, Chaosgyro, the reason wizards did so much damage - and the reason fTs complain about doing so little - is much simpler than that. In D&D, fighters gain an average of 2.5-3 times the HP per level of wizards in a game where damage reduction could be said to be nonexistent (until enchanted items start showing up) - not accounting for base stats. Additionally, wizards ended up biting the worse end of most negative conditions thrown out by enemies. To make up for this, wizards were given raw offensive power, far beyond the other classes.

fFs have no weakness - they've got HP, DFP, and ATP in spades. But what do fT's get in exchange for having neither HP nor DFP, only TP? Nothing. Abso-fucking-lutely nothing.



Survivability? That's what fighters are for. Soaking up damage.

Conditions? That's what gunners are for (as if conditions really matter with everything dying so fast anyway - oh, and might I add, ST's been kindly grafting conditions into fighters' weapons, too).

Support? "Go AT and level your buffs, newman." Need I say anymore?

Damage potential? Oh, that's right - fighters get this one, too...


Essentially, fighters are 2.25 / 4, gunners 0.75 / 4, Acrotechers 1 / 4, and Fortetechers 0 / 4. Attack techers are outclassed in everything by at least someone, while fighters outclass everything in half of what makes up the game. Hell, with as fast as enemies die in this game, a solo fF with mates is basically the rough equivalent of any other entire party.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rogue_robot on 2008-01-31 16:08 ]</font>

[DreXxiN]

I think what fT's dont realise is they do an extremely large amount of damage..but situationally.

They get bows, you know..that and they get support techs, not the same as aT...but level 30 supports/heals can do quite a lot. You have high EVP, and even though your "Lolbignumbers" aren't as big as a fortefighters, you have a lot of extra stuff at your arsenal.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2008-01-31 16:07, rogue_robot wrote:
Actually, Chaosgyro, the reason wizards did so much damage - and the reason fTs complain about doing so little - is much simpler than that. In D&D, fighters gain an average of 2.5-3 times the HP per level of wizards in a game where damage reduction could be said to be nonexistent (until enchanted items start showing up) - not accounting for base stats. Additionally, wizards ended up biting the worse end of most negative conditions thrown out by enemies. To make up for this, wizards were given raw offensive power, far beyond the other classes.

fFs have no weakness - they've got HP, DFP, and ATP in spades. But what do fT's get in exchange for having neither HP nor DFP, only TP? Nothing. Abso-fucking-lutely nothing.



Survivability? That's what fighters are for. Soaking up damage.

Conditions? That's what gunners are for (as if conditions really matter with everything dying so fast anyway - oh, and might I add, ST's been kindly grafting conditions into fighters' weapons, too).

Support? "Go AT and level your buffs, newman." Need I say anymore?

Damage potential? Oh, that's right - fighters get this one, too...


Essentially, fighters are 2.25 / 4, gunners 0.75 / 4, Acrotechers 1 / 4, and Fortetechers 0 / 4. Attack techers are outclassed in everything by at least someone, while fighters outclass everything in half of what makes up the game. Hell, with as fast as enemies die in this game, a solo fF with mates is basically the rough equivalent of any other entire party.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rogue_robot on 2008-01-31 16:08 ]</font>


lol. this is a whine.
FTs have resta. They don't need as many HP because they are not hit as much. Even when soloing it is 'NPC meat shield' all the way. They also have jellen to reduce damage. They ALSO have high enough MST to ignore damage from non buffed sources. Try slapping on some 1/2 way decent fire armor and go stand in vanda damfoie. '0' damage. Ageeta ice, sageeta ice, pannon ice and pannon damdiga. 0,0,0,0

FTs can use whips. Whips inflict status. So do techs.

FTs have second best support, and it's a close second.

FTs do plenty of damage, and tech resistance is the rarest resistance out there.

[DreXxiN]

If you ask me, Fortetecher is a very hybrid class compared to the other forte's..It'd be horrible if fT's tied/surpassed damage like in early PSU and still could heall/buff/debuff...that and having that much EVP/MST.

[rogue_robot]

Not really...
Jabroga/Chikki/other lolbignumber Skill PAs hit multiple spots on large enemies, on top of dealing more damage per hit.

Furthermore, bows? If techers wanted to most of their fighting with ranged weapons, not techs, they'd have gone gunner already. Besides, fighters still get handguns, so bows aren't that much of a big deal. Just more damage and better range on an option still also available to fighters.

As for support? Wow, stepping on the toes of another class as a consolation prize? Are they supposed to be happy with that, especially with elitists constantly telling them to just go AT and sacrifice their attack techs?


Each of the non-hybrids should be good at something specific, which, in this game's online, is not the case. Hence why the complaints of both attack techers and (I certainly won't argue on this one, SolomonGrundy) gunners are justified. Attack techers have always had gimped attacks, and gunners got their conditions gimped.


If ST wanted to leave attack techs so weak, they should have never split attack and defense techs - and fTs should still be masters of both. As it stands now, there's no point to what they are good at, and someone else (AT) is better at the other half.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rogue_robot on 2008-01-31 16:42 ]</font>

[MrNomad]

if anyone lost first place, it was Fortegunners, not Fortetechers. DoTs went from king, to almost useless. Elemental Bullets gained no accuracy nor extra bullet or other 'cool' effect at 31+ (they cost more though).








<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2008-01-31 15:15 ]</font>
[/quote]Oh dont hand me that BS. Gunners NEVER lost anything, infact they got better in the expansion. Oh noes, our bullets cost 2 more pp and dont do as much dmg as hunters, even though all our guns can now flinch enemies. Yeah, they lost alright http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[rogue_robot]

Well, that's just ST's problem for giving fT's things that don't matter to people who want to play an attack techer. I'd gladly give up EVP and support for better attack techs when playing the attack techer class.

EDIT: Besides, as any fighter will tell you, EVP is more of a problem than a blessing - even for techers, in some cases.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rogue_robot on 2008-01-31 16:46 ]</font>

[Chaosgyro]

I didn't say one class WAS better or worse than another. I didn't say one class HAD it better or worse than another. My simple point was that the reason fortetechers seem to be the biggest whiners among class groups is because subconsciously many techers feel that they are 'advanced'. Many have an ego the size of the Hindenburg and just as volatile. The language of marketing magic classes as 'for the advanced' creates the idea in a large number of minds that the players of other classes are therefore not advanced - that they are, in fact, lesser beings. As such, those stupid cavemen who play fighters or gunners should not in any way be superior to the fortetechers. How dare they get a nice wand!

It should be noted that the thread off of which this rant is based has since determined that rods have absolutely nothing to worry about. The 20% from using a rod means that this wand simply can't compete.

[rogue_robot]

I will agree with the "advanced player" language, Chaosgyro. That is just stupid.

Though it's not as if the fighters don't have their parallel - take one look at Samurai Western, and you should understand exactly what I mean...

[Chaosgyro]

I just close my eyes, plug my ears, and pretend that the Wapanese don't exist. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Is it wrong that I hate anime, but love this game?

[rogue_robot]

...and Samurai Western is exactly the kind of fighter stats all non-fighters have to tolerate in this game...

Also, I would say no, it's not wrong to hate anime in general, but love this game - just as I love RPGs but hate their frequent balance issues (as well as everything to do with Final Fantasy 7+). It's called a love-hate relationship; you can't live with it, you can't live without it.

[Mystil]

On 2008-01-31 16:17, DreXxiN wrote:
I think what fT's dont realise is they do an extremely large amount of damage..but situationally.

They get bows, you know..that and they get support techs, not the same as aT...but level 30 supports/heals can do quite a lot. You have high EVP, and even though your "Lolbignumbers" aren't as big as a fortefighters, you have a lot of extra stuff at your arsenal.


Ah. But once again and everytime. That will be met with "how much jabroga does?" "One PA will out damage all my extra stuff combined"

[rogue_robot]

I personally just think that as the HP/DFP classes, fighters shouldn't be the primary source of damage, that's all. Certainly not dead last, but not first, either.

With both highest survivability and highest damage, basically everything ends up done by fighters, with literally all other classes relegated to "support," never being able to handle anything on their own.

Really, in my opinion, the optimal arrangement would be to have no one be highest base DPS (without considering enemy defenses). In turn, techers would have highest survivability against techs, fighters against striking attacks, and gunners against ranged attacks. In turn, enemies would also have separate levels of resistance against striking, ranged, and tech attacks. Therefore, each class would get opportunities to be the main attacker, and all classes would face a supporter role from time to time (assuming enemies' resistances are spread out evenly).

That would end all of these (frequent) disputes in a way that allows everyone to play their favored class. Obviously, the hybrid classes would be weaker in their two areas of focus...

[Chaosgyro]

In almost any action game the melee fighters will do the most damage. This is intentional because even with the most HP/DFP they do not have the highest survivability. Essentially, because they are getting the brunt of the knockdown and SE spam, the extra HP/DFP puts them on par for survivability with gunners and techers. Remember, there are no tanks in this game who keep a mob's attention while the others kill it. It's all about killing it before it kills you. Should fighters be doing as much more damage as they are now? That's a tough call. Maybe not, but they should still be doing more. Keep in mind as well that fighters have to chase mobs (and especially bosses) around a little more than the other archetypes do.

[rogue_robot]

Yes, but in turn for having to chase bosses, they don't have the ammunition/mana limitations the others face. I just don't buy that fighters need any more damage than any other class.

[DreXxiN]

I'm a figher on two characters and I have to agree it is very dumb when Chikki destroys robots, supposedly supposed to be mastered by Force and Ranger classes with Killer Shot/Megid/Diga..

[Weeaboolits]

The point of FT is not to get big numbers, but to blow things up and shoot them with fire and lightning, level them and be flashy as hell and lag the crap out of PS2 players and people with inferior PCs.

Supporting is nice too, but AT can't get diga meteors, and we know that's exactly what we all want in the end, that and gizonde domes.

Sure FT may not be kill stuff as effectively as other classes, but they will look damn cool doing it.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2008-01-31 21:50, DreXxiN wrote:
I'm a figher on two characters and I have to agree it is very dumb when Chikki destroys robots, supposedly supposed to be mastered by Force and Ranger classes with Killer Shot/Megid/Diga..



3 things: it's not fighters that are the problem - it's Cheatychikki.

2nd, if you are playing FT, and don't ike EVP you have a lot of self hate - because takers have the highest in game.

The third thing is, a lot of folks don't like support, but this is the role Forces traditionally play in Phantasy Star. If you think it's bad now, try PSO. Be happy they made AT, who is better at suppost, and therefore gets stuck with it.

Protip: FT stats don't suck, unless you want to melee. You want sucky stats, go play a pre AoI ProTranser. THEY had something to complain about.

And yet few did...Fancy that.

[icewyrm]

There are only two real melee weapons that anyone really complains about, axes+jabroga and slicers+chikki. Balance these and most complaints would disappear. Except from the FFs who lost their edge :/ Theres plenty of other cool/powerful PAs but these two are just a little rediculous, DPS wise. If chikkis damage was reduced, and jabroga hit less targets (just as examples, they could be altered in other simple ways to achieve the same affect) then things wouldn't be so unbalanced (in my opinion).

[amtalx]

blah blah blah blah...

Fix Chikki, and make enemies last longer. Problem solved. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[rogue_robot]

On 2008-01-31 23:32, SolomonGrundy wrote:
The third thing is, a lot of folks don't like support, but this is the role Forces traditionally play in Phantasy Star. If you think it's bad now, try PSO. Be happy they made AT, who is better at suppost, and therefore gets stuck with it.



I'm calling bullshit. I certainly don't remember Rolf's techs being all about "support." Or Alis' & Lutz's techs. Or Rune's techs. Or even Wren's (PSIII). So you're 0/4 on the support-role-is-classic argument.

That's the kind of techs that pure attack techers want.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rogue_robot on 2008-02-01 07:06 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-01-31 14:38, MrNomad wrote:

On 2008-01-31 14:30, panzer_unit wrote:
So max level Dambarta on a stacked rod with buffs does how much per tick now?
So A slicer with lvl 40 chikki does how much now? To how many targets now?


I asked first. Got a number for me?

[ljkkjlcm9]

On 2008-01-31 16:57, Chaosgyro wrote:
I just close my eyes, plug my ears, and pretend that the Wapanese don't exist. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Is it wrong that I hate anime, but love this game?


no because I feel the exact same way.

I don't understand the complaint though. I always figured Melee was suppose to be the highest damage dealer, in any game. And ranged people were there to support with extra damage and status effects. And forces were there to apply status effects, heal/buff the party, and do a small amount of damage.

In fact, in most games I figured in terms of damage
melee > ranged > magic

The biggest problem? Forces should have spells that inflict instant SEs and such. They should have a giant light spell that hits 4 enemies doing some damage, and guarantees sleep. They should have an ice spell, that does the same but freezes. Or a dark spell that does the same but infects. A ground spell, that paralyzes. GUARANTEED. They would have long casting times however.

Except, PSU isn't your typical RPG in that way. So they don't have these techs. SO people complain they can't do huge damage as a force, when I have never seen a force but the main damage dealer. I'm sorry but, any RPG I play, magic typically sits to the side as my melee users destroy everything. Even in games where you can pick if you want to use the melee characters or the magic characters, I see so many people pick magic characters and struggle, when I'm ten levels lower using all melee.

Melee is the bread and butter of any game, and should be there to take damage, and dish it out. Melee has no support capabilities. It's there PURELY to GIVE and TAKE damage.

THE JACKEL

[rogue_robot]

Wow, Jackel, that's the exact opposite of my experience. The only times I've ever seen offensive mages leaning heavily on supportive abilities was Final Fantasy and any game on an engine cloned from FF's basic setup (sadly common, and rarely worth playing imo - always have the feel of shovelware about them to me). In games like that (sadly, PSU leans toward being one), I often find it best not even to use magic - it's worthless anyway. I seriously end up going through the entire game spamming the most basic "Attack" command, even with the mages (FF1, anyone?). Hell, mages in those games always just feel like gimped fighters that can waste a turn producing flashy animations if you're bored!


In D&D v3+, mages get whole extra dice added to their attack damage, while fighters get one die throughout the entire game and are lucky to have even small integer values added to that (typically coming from either their own physical strength, or from enchantments - provided by mages).

In Xenosaga III, as long as you take proper advantage of elements, magic horrendously outdamages nonmagic (though the line between the two has always been blurry in that series). Hell, even removing elements from the equation, it's still very destructive. (In the first two, of course, actual spells were as abominably worthless as in FF.)

In Mass Effect, there are nosupport biotics (spells), aside from Shield, and Singularity positively destroys whole groups of enemies in ways shotguns, sniper rifles, and assault rifles can't compare - typically, in about the time it takes any of those weapons to kill one (unless they're all unarmored).

In Grandia II, some characters' specials would outdamage magic, but would have cost effectiveness issues that lent the advantage to magic in the end anyway.

Tales of Symphonia - Indignation / Judgement. Especially when it's enemies casting them.

In classic Phantasy Star - Lutz, Rolf, Rune. 'Nuff said. (Rolf's sword? Comparative waste of time, against NaFoi in the early game and Megid in the late game.)



EDIT: One more thing to consider - as PSU in it's current state does a wonderful job proving, the ability to lay down negative conditions is effectively worthless. All it does - if they even catch - is spare the fighters maybe one or two inconsequential hits - Resta will likely heal them to full after the fight, anyway. And all that's assuming they even take hits, which, if you're playing it right, they should only do so on rare occasion, given how easy everything is to kill.

Besides, that's gunner territory. So what, attack techers are just there to step on everyone's toes?

(Yes, I know I'm starting to get as bad as Remedy here. I just don't like the Samurai Western attitude that a dumb old sword should outdamage everything - even the ability to manipulate the universe at its most basic levels.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rogue_robot on 2008-02-01 11:43 ]</font>

[ljkkjlcm9]

Tell me though

If forces dealt the most damage in the game, the most DPS, etc.... why would anyone play anything else?

Firstly, you stay at a distance, launching your attack techs. Secondly, many of them add SE's that confuse, stun, freeze, etc so that they can't even get close enough to you. Thirdly, you can heal and buff yourself, if you get hit. If they're doing the most damage out of any class as well, there'd really be no point in playing any other class.

oh and as for some of your references
like Tales of Symphonia, sure the spells did a lot of damage, but they had long casting times, and in the time it took for Genis to cast one spell, I'd have done way more damage with Lloyd or any other physical attacker.

That's typically what I see in games. Sure the techs can hit for bigger numbers, but in the time it normally take them to do those huge numbers, a melee user hit the enemy way more times equaling more than that one spell.

THE JACKEL

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2008-02-01 11:59 ]</font>

[rogue_robot]

Simple: because Fortetechers would then not have any noteworthy support. Besides, unlike fighters, Fortetechers actually run out of weapon energy, and have to use limited Photon Charges to restore it - they might do more damage, but they've got limited ammo.

That's just the problem - not everyone who wants to play with magic wants to run nurse duty all the time, and if they're going to split off attack mages from support mages, they should damn well do it completely and not create a useless class (I note you completely ignored my comments about inflicting conditions, which is gunner territory - and how worthless they've become in this game, anyway).

Besides, in PSO, the (non-CAST) fighters could heal themselves quite sufficiently, and many other RPGs also allow this, so the "healing oneself" argument is completely moot (FF1 Knight, D&D Paladin/Ranger, etc.).

EDIT: As it stands, I don't see any reason to play non-fighters in this game. With so much ATP, HP, and DFP all in one class, they can kill anything before it has a chance to inflict any real damage to them, anyway, in spite of having to run all the way across the room to reach it. And when it's using Megid? Just carry scapes - with as much Meseta as this game drops, that isn't a problem for higher level characters. That said, what reason is there to play anyone other than fighters (aside from personal preference)?



That's why I proposed my other arrangement - where nobody would have highest DPS overall - they would have highest DPS in their area of expertise, but player and enemy stat design would ensure everyone runs equal quantities of offense and support duty.

Also Edit: The notion that any one class is more central or "bread and butter" to combat is exactly the problem. And PSU's biggest balance problem stems from taking a solo-based architecture (PSO) and trying to turn it into a team game by limiting what resources any one character can even use compared to what they used to have.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rogue_robot on 2008-02-01 13:21 ]</font>

[ljkkjlcm9]

I'm sorry, I play an acrotecher, and during the event I spammed Megid, constantly, and I never had any PP problems with my wand/madoog combos. The fact that Fortetechers get a PP reduction makes me wonder how people are running out of PP so easily. And the simple fact is, fortetechers are to use rods, and to have big flashy techs.

I've seen so many variations to playing acrotecher... though the one I hate most is, only buff spells and whips. Person complained about fighting a flying boss because they wouldn't be able to hit it >.>

Anyways, there are plenty of reasons not to play a fighter. You know how frustrating it is to run into a group of enemies, and everytime you get a just attack off, you get hit and it cancels it, or it blocks it. Fact is, people that watch melee players in groups don't understand, the only reason fighters are half as effective as they are, is other people are distracting the enemies. When you solo (without slicer) and have to run into groups of enemies, it requires a lot more patience and timing, and yes, ENEMIES CAN DAMAGE YOU. Truly, fighters only shine in parties (unless using slicer). Sure I can solo as my figh, but any class can solo.

THE JACKEL

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-02-01 13:33, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
Fact is, people that watch melee players in groups don't understand, the only reason fighters are half as effective as they are, is other people are distracting the enemies.

Yeah, seeing a bunch of big numbers pop up every now and then seems to make everybody else jealous and turn their brains off to everything else surrounding it.

So, since it's been a while, what's real top-end "this is the max until level cap goes up" Fortetecher damage? Do any of the fT's know? I'd be surprised.

[Reipard]

Note: It's a bad idea to use PS3 in any argument to support strong attack mages. If it was a tech and it wasn't support, it SUCKED ASS in PS3.

I approve highly of using PS1, 2 and 4's attack magic/techs, though. Nothing like Hewn, Megid or Effess for melee.

Keep going Rogue Robot. I like your style and your POV ^_^.

[rogue_robot]

True about ToS/PS3 - mages weren't that great in them, I was just good at putting them to use...


We've all been down this road a thousand times before, and it almost always ends with E-DRAMA. So let's just agree to disagree on this one, Jackel, since neither of us appear to have a snowball's chance in hell of reconciling with one another's opinions. I just think that techers, having no health (since RPGs rarely account for mind-kills like Star Ocean) and (usually, not in PSU) no mobility (as that's normally what the gunner archetype would get), should have raw offensive power.

Of course, personally, I'm for the abolition of "classes" - inflexible archetypes, be they D&D's or PSU's - entirely. They can create as many "pures" and "hybrids" as they want, but as our argument proves, Jackel, they'll never "get it right" - someone will always have a different take on exactly what constitutes a "pure" of a given type.

In the case of PSU, they could have implemented a system of Ability Points, where you get a certain amount every level-up to spend on what weapon proficiencies (C->B->A->S) and stats to expand (with an auto-level feature for those who aren't into micromanagement).


Thanks for the complement, Reipard. I personally liked PS4's system where you could eke even more damage out of proper combos involving both a techer and a meleer (or meleer/gunner, or techer/gunner, or even two of the same class in some cases), but such a setup in PSU would be far beyond ST's desired level of effort to code.


Personally, I don't believe any of the three should be any more cost-effective than the other - if techs are gonna way outdamage melee/guns, they're gonna cost proportionally more, too. Same goes for skills or bullets, should they be in the same position. And since cqc normally comes without a cost (or with an extremely low one), it follows both for game balance (and for realism, as cqc is basically all that's affected by conventional armor, with bullets being affected by some advanced armors) that cqc weapons don't actually do that much damage (which is the case in PSU - but skills are a different animal, and would need to be based on the same cost-damage relationship).

That's the core of my problem with PSU and techers - every time I switch to a techer, I feel as if cost-effectiveness has gone out the window.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2008-01-31 16:57, Chaosgyro wrote:
I just close my eyes, plug my ears, and pretend that the Wapanese don't exist. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Is it wrong that I hate anime, but love this game?



Well, I wouldn't say its wrong to hate anime and love the game or vice versa, but I do think its wrong to think that Wapanese = guys who only like to watch anime. I'm Wapanese, and I do watch anime, although its not all I ever watch, and I'm not too fanatical about it unless its totally awesome.

About the melee being the most powerful thing in video games, I just think its a natural law of video games that melee should do more because melee'ers are up front, getting hit the most, having to run up to and chase enemies around, etc. I don't think long range should be as powerful as close range unless there's a price to pay for it, like you hurt yourself to do the damage, take a long time to pull it out, can only do it for a very limited time, etc.

[Weeaboolits]

On 2008-01-31 17:33, Mystil wrote:

On 2008-01-31 16:17, DreXxiN wrote:
I think what fT's dont realise is they do an extremely large amount of damage..but situationally.

They get bows, you know..that and they get support techs, not the same as aT...but level 30 supports/heals can do quite a lot. You have high EVP, and even though your "Lolbignumbers" aren't as big as a fortefighters, you have a lot of extra stuff at your arsenal.Ah. But once again and everytime. That will be met with "how much jabroga does?" "One PA will out damage all my extra stuff combined"A bit late on this, but keep in mind that jabroga is extremely slow and easily interrupted, unlike most techs.

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-02-03 11:47, rogue_robot wrote:
Thanks for the complement, Reipard. I personally liked PS4's system where you could eke even more damage out of proper combos involving both a techer and a meleer (or meleer/gunner, or techer/gunner, or even two of the same class in some cases), but such a setup in PSU would be far beyond ST's desired level of effort to code.


I think it would be awful in a multiplayer team. You know how people are; you'll have a handful of jerks that absolutely have to do these combos making teamwork a chore for everyone else, and another handful of jerks that totally refuse to do anything anybody else tells them to... just for the joy of causing whiny hissy-fits.

[Sekani]

On 2008-02-04 07:21, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2008-02-03 11:47, rogue_robot wrote:
Thanks for the complement, Reipard. I personally liked PS4's system where you could eke even more damage out of proper combos involving both a techer and a meleer (or meleer/gunner, or techer/gunner, or even two of the same class in some cases), but such a setup in PSU would be far beyond ST's desired level of effort to code.


I think it would be awful in a multiplayer team. You know how people are; you'll have a handful of jerks that absolutely have to do these combos making teamwork a chore for everyone else, and another handful of jerks that totally refuse to do anything anybody else tells them to... just for the joy of causing whiny hissy-fits.

I dunno, that sounds a lot more interesting than the Just Attack system we have now.

[panzer_unit]

Constraining player choice is total bullshit... especially something core to the game like "what attack am I going to use." There's nowhere that can go but wrong. Just like JA... it doesn't take long before the criticals are taken for granted and it's just frustrating that you miss.