Knockdown / Resist

[Retniwreven]

Discussion about why this would be the greatest thing ever, if it actually existed.

Honestly, I don't think I'd ever take it off.

...Unless it ended up like Ult in PSO wherein you'd get stunlocked to death by swarms of things that could no longer knock you over.

[Kamiense]

I'd definitely use that when using Jaborga.

[Norcris]

Here's an idea....

Iron / Wall

-200 DFP (Yes, minus)

Prevents Stagger/Knockdown.

Edit: Making it a resist unit wouldn't make much sense seeing as how knockdown isn't a status effect.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Norcris on 2008-02-02 10:11 ]</font>

[Retniwreven]

Mm, true. Though considering the amount of time I spend knocked down, it sure feels like it. =/

[Pillan]

Or you can just raise your DFP/EVP. Once your DFP reaches a certain point compared to enemy ATP, the attacks no longer knock you down. And most knockback attacks have lower ATA, so EVP is more effective in general against them and you can easily follow with a Just Counter.

With a high element dark armor, I stand up to a stampede of Orcdillian (or whatever the things in Electronic Brain are called) in S as an Acrotecher, while watching the rest of the party fall on their faces.

[Retniwreven]

Being a Beast FF, at 120, I still find myself frequently knocked down even with top-end armor and an Orpad/Guard. Heck, things that hit me for 200-300 still send me flying at times.

EVP is generally just as bad for me as knockdown, as it kills my combos.

I'm not saying that I couldn't live without this, it'd just be something neat to have as an option in places heavy with robots/seed vance/kog nadd/what have you.

[Aka]

Legless Rainbow works better with elemental armor than Orpad/Guard in reducing physical damage.

[Retniwreven]

If I feel like carrying around an armor of every element... Being that I wear a Serafi-Senba, this would be a very, very pricey solution.

[Zorafim]

On 2008-02-02 10:31, Pillan wrote:
Or you can just raise your DFP/EVP. Once your DFP reaches a certain point compared to enemy ATP, the attacks no longer knock you down. And most knockback attacks have lower ATA, so EVP is more effective in general against them and you can easily follow with a Just Counter.



Even after a knockback stops being a knockback, it becomes a stun. Though yes, EVP is now a viable option if you're good at JCing.


If hunters stop being stunned by enemy attacks, I can see the game being really boring. You'd just whale on the PA button, not caring if you get hit or not, and just tap the trimate button when you need it.
Wait, that sounds familiar...

Instead, we need a way to dodge or block, or even counter enemy knockbacks. Considering most hunters spend most their time in non-dodgable PA mode, and enemies can attack whenever they please, a unit that just prevents knockbacks looks like it's coming first...

[Retniwreven]

Flinching from hits I understand as being fair. If we flinch monsters with our hits, so too should they be able to. I'm referring more to the tailswipe of Kog Nadds, the greenish-blue 'bullet' shot by Vance, practically everything a Gol Dova does... the attacks that knock you clear off your feet and send you sprawling.

For example - The greenish bullet does maybe 150-220 damage, yet somehow sends me rolling for a good half-second or so.

[Zorafim]

Sorry, typing out loud... I didn't even bother organizing my thoughts there.

As a hunter, I get knocked back too much for my comfort. There are too many non-dodgable attacks that enemies do that can knock you back or otherwise incapacitate you. Getting stunned instead of knocked back would be a godsend, but a way to counter them would be even better.

[Retniwreven]

*Has a sudden mental image of swinging a Dedda much like a bat to knock the spitball right back at the Vance's head*

[Pillan]

On 2008-02-02 17:01, Zorafim wrote:
Instead, we need a way to dodge or block, or even counter enemy knockbacks.


Strafing, raising EVP, and Just Countering…

We already have those. Adding a full system to boost that ability further would make the game more broken in favor of hunters. There are also skills like the most recent twin dagger art which physically dodge enemy attacks throughout the combo.

Being flinched and knocked back out of combos is part of the game’s balance, after all. But, as I said, it’s easy to stop the knockdown by simply raising DFP with a combination of high element, high DFP, and Deband. Or raise your EVP to the point that you block it most of the time. You can do it easily regardless of race.

Easiest way to do it is just to invest in a high element set of A rank armor.

[Retniwreven]

Pillan - explain this, then. As a Beast FF, with Def in the 600-700 range, Deband, and being hit for 150-220 out of over 3500 hp, one still suffers sprawling knockback in some cases, such as the Vitace bullets. Certain attacks cause it regardless of how high your def is. =D

[Gunslinger-08]

On 2008-02-02 19:09, Retniwreven wrote:
Pillan - explain this, then. As a Beast FF, with Def in the 600-700 range, Deband, and being hit for 150-220 out of over 3500 hp, one still suffers sprawling knockback in some cases, such as the Vitace bullets. Certain attacks cause it regardless of how high your def is. =D



It's the theoretical idea that some attacks have so much force behind them that even if you don't take much damage, they still send you flying by the laws of physics (which I use loosely in this case.)
ex:
A titanium-clad soldier standing right beside an explosion is still going to get blasted away, even though the amount of physical damage he receives will be greatly reduced by the armor.

(edit): typos

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger-08 on 2008-02-02 19:34 ]</font>

[Retniwreven]

Right. I was simply pointing out that the argument that enough Dfp will eventually negate an attack's ability to knockback is not valid in certain cases, hence why one might find such a unit, theoretical and nonexistent as it might be, to be useful. =D

(I'm leaving out Evp because I have about 120 of it base, and... let's face it, that's not blocking much.)

[Mystil]

I believe some attacks will knockback no matter what since they follow the same principles as PAs with knockback. I'd rather be knockbacked than stunned(not the status) because that will lead to death much faster :/.

[Retniwreven]

But stun already has a resist unit. =3

[Sexy_Raine]

Though it would be an awesome unit, it would be too good for hunter types. Just don't get hit. Even without being knocked back, there is still sleep/stun/freeze to worry about.

[Pillan]

On 2008-02-02 19:09, Retniwreven wrote:
Pillan - explain this, then. As a Beast FF, with Def in the 600-700 range, Deband, and being hit for 150-220 out of over 3500 hp, one still suffers sprawling knockback in some cases, such as the Vitace bullets. Certain attacks cause it regardless of how high your def is. =D


As a Caseal Fighgunner with 40 something percent earth armor, the Drua Goras in Serpent S don’t stop knocking you over until the damage is around 120-130ish.

I’m pretty sure it’s possible to stop any attack from knocking you over. If you doubt it, go back to Fight For Food S and test it there. Your DFP just isn’t quite high enough to do it to them at 100+ yet.

[beatrixkiddo]

Try Goshin, Pillan. Pretty sure as long as that head-spin attack of theirs does ANY damage to you, it knocks you down.

[Pillan]

On 2008-02-02 20:32, beatrixkiddo wrote:
Try Goshin, Pillan. Pretty sure as long as that head-spin attack of theirs does ANY damage to you, it knocks you down.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/eugeneal/Goshinnostun.jpg

The first Neudaiz mission on S2 as a GT wearing 40+% fire armor.

[beatrixkiddo]

usuk D: Are you sure it was the one where they slam you with their head? :| That has ALWAYS knocked me over.

[Pillan]

If you're on the PC/PS2 version, we can meet for an encore performance.

[Mystil]

Oh yea, Goshin spin isn't knockdown 24/7.

On 2008-02-02 19:43, Retniwreven wrote:
But stun already has a resist unit. =3


I said not the status.

Or what people call..flinching.

I should have said that in the first place -.-.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mystil on 2008-02-02 21:18 ]</font>

[Jife_Jifremok]

The problem with high EVP is that it could cause interruptions even when you're being hit by attacks that won't flinch you. And really, I don't see that much greatness in Just Counter with melee weapons since many times I get interrupted during a Just Attack and sometimes even during a Just Counter. Shotguns with JC, on the other hand...

But the most annoying thing of all is not the flinch with interruption or the getting sent flying. It's that "Imma take a nap now" animation (like when fighting goshin). Your character's not getting hit hard enough to be knocked over or even flinch, your character just decides to take a nap after getting hit.


On 2008-02-02 19:48, Sexy_Raine wrote:
Though it would be an awesome unit, it would be too good for hunter types. Just don't get hit. Even without being knocked back, there is still sleep/stun/freeze to worry about.



"Don't get hit"? That's easy for a ranged fighter, or even a shotgunner. You try fighting up close, using heavy blades, with almost no maneuverability during attacks, coupled by the fact that time spent dodging is time wasted not attacking so you're usually better off just eating the damage and a mate afterward. Whatever maneuverability is there during attacks isn't good for dodging, but for getting in range of other nearby enemies. (Only exception I've seen IN A SKILL THAT I LIKE TO USE (dunno about the skills I DON'T like to use) is Rising Strike which I can use to stay on a jarba's backside.

And sleep/stun/freeze all have corresponding resist units and are thus only a problem when an enemy has two of them (like the X-Men sentinel guys in the AMF place).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jife_Jifremok on 2008-02-03 08:29 ]</font>

[Retniwreven]

I'd like to see a Just Counter style retort to being knocked over/back/up, regardless of weapon equipped at the time. Perhaps doing some kind of backflip or otherwise stalling/negating the fall/blowback.

[gryphonvii]

how about a dodge button so we can roll just like every single person style enemy we fight.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I personally love high EVP, although mostly on my Acrofighter, Wartecher, or Fighgunner which uses fast weapons that benefit from high EVP and JC. Even my Fortefighter benefits from blocking and JC'ing when using swords with Gravity Break. Only time I really don't like evading is when I'm using Anga Jabroga because that takes quite a while to pull off, and when I do, its annoying to block it, although I consider it far more annoying to get smacked and flying, or that sleep thing Jife mentioned. And yeah, not getting hit as a FF is pretty much impossible. Getting hit is just part of the game.

Also, not everyone really has the money luck to get a high % armor, so its not like we can all get hit from things and just take it like nothing as Pillan did from the Hentai worm.

[BurntFaceMan]

THATS MY EXPLOSION / RESIST!!!

ive been planning this thing for weeks

its a unit that keeps you from going flying when robots explode (works for any enemy)
or really just allows you to take the damage without sending you flying across the map which angers me so much

[fighgunners]

does this mean knockdown as in instant death?because if there is its call vijreea resist 12 * not out currently.if you mean knockdown as in getting pushed back you just level up till they cant hit you as hard knockdown is when you get hit by a high amount of physical damage i do believe.

[Jife_Jifremok]

On 2008-02-03 10:06, fighgunners wrote:
does this mean knockdown as in instant death?


I am suddenly reminded of that classic line from final Fantasy...
I, Garland, will knock you all down!

[superdood22]

On 2008-02-03 08:16, Retniwreven wrote:
I'd like to see a Just Counter style retort to being knocked over/back/up, regardless of weapon equipped at the time. Perhaps doing some kind of backflip or otherwise stalling/negating the fall/blowback.

Thats what i've been saying, like an aireal recovery when you get hit back kinda like Dynasty Warriors or Tenchi No Mon.

Off Topic: Overall evasion block is just a pest to begin with, it interupts you and is just useless. I would prefer to take hits than to stop at that last moment of my PA. Manual blocking would be nice, however this is an rpg and ST is trying their hardest to keep PSU in that department (but failed at that a long time ago).

[GuardianElite]

On 2008-02-03 17:41, superdood22 wrote:

On 2008-02-03 08:16, Retniwreven wrote:
I'd like to see a Just Counter style retort to being knocked over/back/up, regardless of weapon equipped at the time. Perhaps doing some kind of backflip or otherwise stalling/negating the fall/blowback.

Thats what i've been saying, like an aireal recovery when you get hit back kinda like Dynasty Warriors or Tenchi No Mon.

Off Topic: Overall evasion block is just a pest to begin with, it interupts you and is just useless. I would prefer to take hits than to stop at that last moment of my PA. Manual blocking would be nice, however this is an rpg and ST is trying their hardest to keep PSU in that department (but failed at that a long time ago).


you should try JCing

[Zorafim]

JC is a funny thing. After I got comfortable with predicting when to use JC, I emptied out an entire weapon after getting evade-locked trying to JC after each evade.
And,

On 2008-02-03 08:31, gryphonvii wrote:
how about a dodge button so we can roll just like every single person style enemy we fight.



This. Want.
Something that cancels PAs, techs, and bullets, and just rolls yourself out of the way in the direction of your choosing.
JCing out of knockbacks and the like seems like it'd be entertaining as well. Or at least give us moves that prevent us from being knocked back, like almost every enemy has.

[Yusaku_Kudou]

I would honestly love 1000 DFP and 0 EVP so I'd never get knocked around and I'd never block attacks.