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View Full Version : RANGERS need Overhaul



Andy1423
Feb 14, 2008, 01:22 PM
I think it's time that Sonic Team should do a little tweaking of the Ranger class.

It seems that every other class has gotten their readjustments, and properly so. MELEE weapons sport recovered pp when striking normal, and Timed attacks make for consistent critical hits. TECH Casting speeds have been adjusted, the Rods have been given a 20% damage bonus, and 31 + RA-techs can now hit an additional target.

These may seem like slight adjustments, but no one can say that their class was better the way it was. I sometimes think Sonic Team forgot about us rangers, and or have no solution for adjusting the class. Thus leaving it neglected and left alone, put to the bottom of the stack. In my opinion, there are so many aspects of the ranger that should be looked at more closely.

What do you guys think?

What would you want to change?

MelanyKoura
Feb 14, 2008, 01:26 PM
Hybrid bullets! :B *bricked*

Actually, I think they're okay for now, outside of having no real special attack (like a charged shot).

I mean... come on. <.< I've seen some ranger classes hit for +500 a shot. RA-classes don't need tweaking.

Feign
Feb 14, 2008, 01:35 PM
I don't know, Rangers in PSU are less ranged rape than they were OBLITERATIONERS in PSO. Rangers are sort of "Support damage + status effects". Heck, you can change your element at will! On top of that, you're normally outside the Radius of Argh and don't get WTFpwnt every three seconds.

Maybe a slight damage bump. Maybe. With specific weapons. Like a sniper rifle that does 40% more damage than the other guns. BOOM Headshot!

/lame ;_;

MelanyKoura
Feb 14, 2008, 01:37 PM
The "BOOM Headshot!" was a nice touch. xD

I have to agree with you in how RAs were in PSO. I mean, I could TANK with my RAcaseal. Given they have good defense... STILL. That's insane. Yes, in PSU, RAs are in their rightful place; support damage from safety range.

amtalx
Feb 14, 2008, 01:45 PM
Rangers are fine now that we actually have access to our rares.
Thanks ST, but ITS ABOUT FUCKING TIME.

Other classes have more flare, but...meh. Rangers typically don't have much flare. All of history's great armies had throngs of bad-ass archers that rained death upon their adversaries while some dude with greasy pecs on the frone lines gets all the glory. Rangers are, as they say, "in the rear, with the gear." http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: amtalx on 2008-02-14 10:46 ]</font>

MelanyKoura
Feb 14, 2008, 01:47 PM
Archers had it easy back then man. xD They shot their quiver's worth of arrows and went home.

Mystil
Feb 14, 2008, 01:49 PM
I'm sure you all would like the age of Ramarl to comeback.

Akaimizu
Feb 14, 2008, 01:49 PM
The age of Ramarl rocked, but I would fully admit they were broken. This game's Ramarl could get a 50% buff to everything they got, and be nowhere near reaching that broken status.

MelanyKoura
Feb 14, 2008, 01:49 PM
Ghetto handgun shooting ftw?

Andy1423
Feb 14, 2008, 02:01 PM
It just seems to me, whatever skill a ranger has, another class has it too, and it's more effective. lazer> megid or slicer for example. It's as if the ranged weapons have no real distinction or specific quality. I mean, its rough beign a ranger, espically if you talk about soloing.

Danger_Girl
Feb 14, 2008, 02:03 PM
I would like to see something to spice up the ranger gameplay just a wee bit. Maybe some kind of special attack based on gun type, rather than bullet. Meaning every gun had it's own special attack. Say for example a recoil shot on rifle that hit for massive damage, but sent you flying backwards. Or a laser canon attack that fired a short ranged "dam-tech" like cone in front of you as you held the button down.

I dunno, just throwing it out there. My problem with the gunner types isn't the level of power, but rather the lack of gameplay options.

Proto07
Feb 14, 2008, 02:03 PM
Is there anything that could be added? Maybe a bigger blast radius on grenade launchers or ex traps? In the time it takes a Hunter to run up to a baddy and use their fancy little move a Ranger is halfway through their clip. Rangers are perfect they way they are. The only reason we're not overpowered is because the time it takes to level up bullets. (Forces don't give me that bs spells are harder to lvl up. You can get giresta megid etc to 40 in a matter of hours now.)

Kion
Feb 14, 2008, 02:05 PM
- BULLET version of just attack
- Dodge roll

the dodge roll would be more like a slightly more mobile side step and would suffer a short pause after use. basically something to get out of the way of an attack when using any of our two handed weapons that keeps us in one place when fired.

Akaimizu
Feb 14, 2008, 02:08 PM
I'm guessing the dodge roll kind of compares to the ability to use Har Quick, or some quick casting for techs, so you can better get out of the way. Except maybe not quite as overall useful as quick casting, but looks a lot cooler and adds a new function to *spice* it up.

Right now, the GT is spiced up, but that's because of the insane pallette switching involved and moving between techs and guns. The less spicy aspect is probably a good part of what kind of makes me less keen on being a straight Fortegunner.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-14 11:10 ]</font>

Jife_Jifremok
Feb 14, 2008, 02:10 PM
Rangers get to do okay damage from afar with some nice status inflicting, but they also get the option to run up close and go BOOM! BOOM! I DON'T NEED NO STINKING HEADSHOTS CAUSE I CAN BLOW HOLES IN YOUR BODY THE SIZE OF YOUR HEAD! BOOOM MOTHERFUCKERRR!! with their shotguns without the need to worry about getting their attacks interrupted like hunters, and that even gets some status dealing as a bonus. With grenades, they kinda do the same thing at a different range and keep things on the ground.

If anything, rangers now are BETTER than they were, because back in the day, a ranger standing from afar plinking away with some 1* Rifle would do so much more damage with DoTs than any other ranger would with direct damage (even 9* shotguns) that rangers seemed almost relegated to being status-dealers on anything except gangs of small enemies that weren't worth spreading viruses on. Now, rangers can still play the support role with DoT and/or debilitating statuses, but raw damage is much more viable than it used to be, making rangers no longer relegated to just one role.

But the absolute WIN BUTTON was given to Protransers. Freeze Trap EX or Stun Trap EX + standing around like an idiot + at least one teammate = oblitherated army of monsters.

Kion
Feb 14, 2008, 02:10 PM
considdering hunters have a bunch of flashy lookin gPA's that do massive damage and send enemies flyign across the screen; i think it's a fair balance.

Akaimizu
Feb 14, 2008, 02:14 PM
This topic is more about spice. Gameplay stuff, not damage or just the role. Little control options and gameplay aspects to add a little fun to it. Special attack timings, other button functions, etc.

But for the sake of argument. If mobs are dying before the SEs even really take effect and do their damage, it's not really that good in the first place. That means, the game is now almost completely relegated to raw damage. Probably the biggest argument as to why mobs need to be tougher.

But yes, EX traps are a win button.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-14 11:17 ]</font>

Andy1423
Feb 14, 2008, 02:17 PM
I personal would like to see the rifle back in it's three round burst timing(or maybe 5 to spice it up a bit) with light/fast/accurate coupled with a Heavy/slower/less accurate part...a la PSO style

The Heavy attack would be equated to a Just attack.

I'm not necessarily talking about a super major change, just something to spice it up a notch.

!!!!Bamm!!!

Andy1423
Feb 14, 2008, 02:21 PM
I'm mean, If protranser can just put down EX freeze traps then what’s the point of spending my entire career keeping frozen shot level 31 just so I can freeze enemies a little better.

And for that matter a fricken 9* mag freeze a target just as much as a high level bullet....where's the balance in that


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy1423 on 2008-02-14 11:22 ]</font>

Anduril
Feb 14, 2008, 02:28 PM
What I would like to see be implemented for Rangers is a melee attack for the guns. Think about it: You're out of bullets and charges and you've got a mob of enemies surrounding you, and your rifle is dead weight..Or is it? THWAK! You hit 1 or 2 of the enemies with the butt of your rifle and restore some PP. If those crazy Grenade Caseals can do it, why can't we?

amtalx
Feb 14, 2008, 02:31 PM
Haha, if you end up in a mission with no charges and all your guns are empty, a melee attack isn't going to save you. Preparation is half the batte. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Hath_Wrobo
Feb 14, 2008, 02:31 PM
Cast Guntecher here. Rangers do not need tweaking. I mostly use bows and crossbows, dabbing a little bit in rifles. SE is easy now since the END reduction, and I can do over 1000 damage a shot against de lo re with fire arrows. You say that other classes have better effects that our weapons? What about killer shot? It shits all over megid. Traps? Leaves us in huge control. What other class can status effect as quick and easy as Gunners? Forces can also, but put a ranger with a shotgun or crossbow around a mob, and we will see who has a harder time SEing. Not to mention that with ranged weapons, we are almost in no danger of dying in a full party.

Face it, Rangers are very balanced, I believe every class is. The only reason why we see things as unbalanced has to do with differences in levels, photon arts, weapons, grinding, and just the lack of experience with other classes. Rangers are for damage and support. We sacrifice damage and health for long range weaponry, accept it or change class



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hath_Wrobo on 2008-02-14 11:31 ]</font>

Gunslinger-08
Feb 14, 2008, 02:32 PM
On 2008-02-14 11:28, Anduril wrote:
What I would like to see be implemented for Rangers is a melee attack for the guns. Think about it: You're out of bullets and charges and you've got a mob of enemies surrounding you, and your rifle is dead weight..Or is it? THWAK! You hit 1 or 2 of the enemies with the butt of your rifle and restore some PP. If those crazy Grenade Caseals can do it, why can't we?



I am in agreement with this. I'd love to take my Blackbull and go all Master Chief on some perky Go Vahra. Hell, I'd probably spend half my time hitting him with it for kicks.

Proto07
Feb 14, 2008, 02:32 PM
Spice huh. Well then a dodge roll would nice like Kion said. It would be cool to see my CAST dodge and scream like a Grunt from Halo. Or when I zoom in with my rifle other party members would see me go prone.

And a photon chainsaw on my rifle.

amtalx
Feb 14, 2008, 02:37 PM
Man, what's with everyone wanting this to play like Halo? A melee attack would unbalance the hell out of rangers. Give us the strongest ranged attacks in the game AND a melee option when we have no melee weapon equipped? No thanks. I think some of you gunners are forgetting we have Saber/Dagger and Spears.

EDIT: Don't forget that Spears are one of the most versatile and powerful (thanks Majarrape) of all the melee weapons. I think fG access to Spears is questionable to begin with...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: amtalx on 2008-02-14 11:39 ]</font>

panzer_unit
Feb 14, 2008, 02:37 PM
Those crazy grenade caseals can't whip out lv20 Shunbu on a dagger.

It's funny how long it takes attitudes to change. When AOI came out everyone was all "OMG MELEE SO DAMAGING" ... now that gunners and techers are hitting 40 on enough of their big damage skills you don't hear a lot of that any more.

BTW gunners are quite spicy already...
lasers, handguns, twins - lining up mobs for apocalyptic damage with penetrating hits
shotguns - lining up double-hits for apocalyptic damage
grenades - playing range / AOE, awesome special abilities and frag PAs

Jife_Jifremok
Feb 14, 2008, 02:38 PM
In terms of spice, I'm gonna use Castlevania as an analogy. Hunters are like Alucard. He gets all the flashy moves (more than he actually needs to get through the castle), and many MANY flashy combat moves if he gets a wide assortment of special weapons. Rangers are like the old-timey Belmonts who nonchalantly strut through the castle with a mimimum of moves and whip an old man in the face. No twirling, no running, and jumping only because they NEED to jump so they can attack the face. It's badass because there is no unnecessary motions, no flair whatsoever. If a Belmont wants variety, he chucks an axe or a cross or something and that's it. Nothing fancy. There's no need for anything fancy.

See, a ranger's style comes from a complete lack of fat or fluff. Though I kinda agree that he could use a LITTLE bit of spicing up, but it's gotta be nothing really fancy. (For instance, Richter Belmont's backflip in Rondo of Blood (not SotN) was useful, but not too fancy, but wasn't even needed, but helped to spice up the ismplistic gameplay.)

To rephrase, hunters get the badass fancy moves like Alucard; rangers get the badass no-need-for-that-fancy-shit setup like a Belmont. They're two different kinds of cool.

Anduril
Feb 14, 2008, 02:41 PM
On 2008-02-14 11:37, amtalx wrote:
Man, what's with everyone wanting this to play like Halo? A melee attack would unbalance the hell out of rangers. Give us the strongest ranged attacks in the game AND a melee option when we have no melee weapon equipped? No thanks. I think some of you gunners are forgetting we have Saber/Dagger and Spears.

EDIT: Don't forget that Spears are one of the most versatile and powerful (thanks Majarrape) of all the melee weapons. I think fG access to Spears is questionable to begin with...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: amtalx on 2008-02-14 11:39 ]</font>
Well for me the addition of a melee attack is just more for the kicks and giggles of seeing a character swing their gun. And mind you I'm not talking about a strong melee attack, more like 1/4 damage with a bit of knockback.

Soulvayne
Feb 14, 2008, 02:44 PM
only thing I'd like to see implemented would be faster PA levelling on bullet skills. The speed of skill PA's levelling compared to a bullet is just ridiculous.

Feign
Feb 14, 2008, 02:56 PM
On 2008-02-14 11:03, Proto07 wrote:
Maybe a bigger blast radius on grenade launchers...


Please, god, no. As a melee, please don't. I appreciate nades being lobbed at crocs and other big nasties, but FFS there's too many "I LUVS MAH NADES HUR HUR" launching into groups of ten small whatevers. We seriously need less knockback in this game. A BIGGER blast radius on launchers?

;_;

Akaimizu
Feb 14, 2008, 02:57 PM
On 2008-02-14 11:37, amtalx wrote:
Man, what's with everyone wanting this to play like Halo?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: amtalx on 2008-02-14 11:39 ]</font>


Actually, this only used a Halo as a modern example. The good ol' melee with the gun was a BIG part of a very old, but cherished RPG game called Wasteland. You'll still see some people talk of that game. But since then, the rifle butt or pistol whip has been used in countless games since then.

Not sure if I'd say that's one of the main things I'd want to spice of a ranger. It's cool, none the less, but not sure I'd be into using it. Don't want to be that close anyway, unless I actually had the defense to stay in there. (eg. I'm not a fG). On the other hand, they don't have the most powerful ranged weapon. Slicers are the most powerful ranged weapon. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

New_One
Feb 14, 2008, 02:57 PM
I reckon gun specific 'secondary attacks' would be a good idea if it were properly balanced. It could use the same button as the melee PA.

Rifle: - Fires concentrated bullet of whatever element you have attached to it, like 200% increased rate of infecting the enemy with respecive SE. With reduced range/damage to compensate. Or just a PP increase.

Machinegun: A 'magazine discharge' attack which deals very quick and huge damage as if you emptied the whole PP gauge (which it does), but maybe with a 15% att bonus or something.

Shotgun: Could just be the glitch they took out, with a PP cost of an additional 50% you can attack two enemies with all bullets when in close proxitmity.

Laser Cannons: Charge shot which deals extra damage depending on how long you hold the button down. Costs additional PP, and if interupted during charge PP is lost in process.

Crossbows: Piercing bolts, costs additional PP

Twin handguns: A 'just attack' combo kinda thing, a succession of correctly timed attacks gives the proceding attack more damage, can be used only three attacks in a row. Eg. normal, heavy, heavier damage.

Grenade Launcher: 'Cluster Bomb' Only hits one hitbox per grenade. Grenade impacts and detonates several charges and causes multiple damage 'ticks'. (Could just be like a normal grenade except its concentrated onto one hitbox)

Just a few ideas, probably horribly broken, but its the concept which I think is good.

Each second attack keeps the element % and SE.
And obviously are only usable by ranger orientated classes.

Andy1423
Feb 14, 2008, 03:03 PM
first of all...no idea is a bad idea... good stuff im reading

Satter
Feb 14, 2008, 03:06 PM
Like someone shouting "IMMA CHARGIN MA LAYZA!!" isn't spicey enough.

Gunslinger-08
Feb 14, 2008, 03:11 PM
On 2008-02-14 12:06, Satter wrote:
Like someone shouting "IMMA CHARGIN MA LAYZA!!" isn't spicey enough.



I lol'd.

And in response to a recent statement, I'm not saying that the melee attack should be powerful, but something that would be there for kicks. Like a cherry on top of an ice cream sundae. It doesn't change the sundae, but it adds a nice little touch of flavor.

Ken_Silver
Feb 14, 2008, 03:13 PM
I think that if there were special attacks for guns instead of just shooting and more shooting, that rangers would be okay. One special shot could be to shoot the ground directly in front of you for a Gi-diga type shot. Or for grenade launchers, a shot with twice the radius but has the user get knocked back.

That's be soo funny to see.

Ranger kid: "I got it!"

Shoots grenade launcher and flies out of screen.

Ranger kid: "WTF?!?"

Other team members: "Hahahaha. Rookie Guardians."

CelestialBlade
Feb 14, 2008, 03:14 PM
My ideas:

- Let us get 100% critical for a JC like Hunters do.

- Dodge roll with the PA button for Ranged weapons.

Most people think Rangers are weak because we're not really number whores, like Fortefighters and Fortetechers. What people don't realize is that our REAL strength is our functionality. Sure, you can get up to an enemy and raise hell, sure you can stand in a middle of a mob and Gidiga their brains out, but we can stand waaaaaay the fuck away and blast them to hell without taking a hit. I'm willing to bet Ranger-types die the least out of all the types. If Scape Dolls suddenly escalated to 5 million a pop, Rangers would be king.

chibiLegolas
Feb 14, 2008, 03:16 PM
On 2008-02-14 11:28, Anduril wrote:
What I would like to see be implemented for Rangers is a melee attack for the guns. Think about it: You're out of bullets and charges and you've got a mob of enemies surrounding you, and your rifle is dead weight..Or is it? THWAK! You hit 1 or 2 of the enemies with the butt of your rifle and restore some PP. If those crazy Grenade Caseals can do it, why can't we?



Agree. I also want to JA with guns as well to gain back PP! Different gun types + rank regain at different rates. It's a last resort kinda thing with good rewards, no? Besides, it sounds like fun.

JA with bullets might be too much since they have distance for safetly and it seems too cheesy to me.

And rangers got no boost? How about the stagger effect they gave to a few guns that didn't have them pre AoI (after C/B rank missions)? How about the vast improvements to lazer cannons? I think ST improved the 3 basic classes well enough.

Akaimizu
Feb 14, 2008, 03:17 PM
Not today. Nobody dies today. Guardians are too strong and mobs are too weak. In fact, in lots of cases, I'm just as susceptible to dying due to my lowered defense and HP. But with today's easy streak, they run in for raw damage with little worry about incapacitation.

Ken_Silver
Feb 14, 2008, 03:27 PM
On 2008-02-14 12:17, Akaimizu wrote:
Not today. Nobody dies today. Guardians are too strong and mobs are too weak. In fact, in lots of cases, I'm just as susceptible to dying due to my lowered defense and HP. But with today's easy streak, they run in for raw damage with little worry about incapacitation.



Where is this easy PSU game that people play? I can't find it.

I'm always getting tossed around by mobs and loosing 10 scapedolls per A ranked mission.

I need to find this easy PSU soon. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Anduril
Feb 14, 2008, 03:29 PM
On 2008-02-14 12:27, Ken_Silver wrote:

On 2008-02-14 12:17, Akaimizu wrote:
Not today. Nobody dies today. Guardians are too strong and mobs are too weak. In fact, in lots of cases, I'm just as susceptible to dying due to my lowered defense and HP. But with today's easy streak, they run in for raw damage with little worry about incapacitation.



Where is this easy PSU game that people play? I can't find it.

I'm always getting tossed around by mobs and loosing 10 scapedolls per A ranked mission.

I need to find this easy PSU soon. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Once you get to 80+ it turns into easy mode. at 100+ it's like you just turned on God Mode.

Andy1423
Feb 14, 2008, 03:37 PM
I'm mean there's an extra button on the controller just waiting to be assigned to something. My X button's getting tired. Y wants’ some serious action. I mean the whole reason why they added just attack was to give the melee users a little change up from the MASHING. But, the guns require no attention to rhythm or skilled timing….where’s the fun in that. If they’re not going to give us a just attack, then bring back the LCK stat instead of just attack. It’s only fair.

Cerberus1981
Feb 14, 2008, 03:38 PM
I'd never say no to a little more stopping power or easier bullet levelling but I've played as a fortefighter and a fortegunner and I'll never go back to melee. I have no desire to use over the top melee PAs that smash enemies all over the place and constantly be chasing high % weapons. I'll stick to doing 500 damage a second with my machine guns whilst I dance untouched between meggid and fireballs.

A gunner will nearly always be less powerful than melee but that's why we have stuff like Killer Shot and Boma Duranga. Personally I don't think Gunners need a boost since we are probably the most versatile class, we can rip enemies to shred close up with machine guns, batter bosses for mega damage with grenade launchers and pick enemies off and inflict easy status effects using rifles without even putting ourselves in danger.

Plus I'm just happy we can now find the rares we crave.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cerberus1981 on 2008-02-14 12:52 ]</font>

Seira7
Feb 14, 2008, 03:48 PM
On 2008-02-14 11:44, Soulvayne wrote:
only thing I'd like to see implemented would be faster PA levelling on bullet skills. The speed of skill PA's levelling compared to a bullet is just ridiculous.



Id like to see faster bullet leveling as well. And have the hunter rules of JC apply to us (100% chance). Thats about it - although S rank cards for GT would be nice...

Ken_Silver
Feb 14, 2008, 03:55 PM
On 2008-02-14 12:29, Anduril wrote:

On 2008-02-14 12:27, Ken_Silver wrote:

On 2008-02-14 12:17, Akaimizu wrote:
Not today. Nobody dies today. Guardians are too strong and mobs are too weak. In fact, in lots of cases, I'm just as susceptible to dying due to my lowered defense and HP. But with today's easy streak, they run in for raw damage with little worry about incapacitation.



Where is this easy PSU game that people play? I can't find it.

I'm always getting tossed around by mobs and loosing 10 scapedolls per A ranked mission.

I need to find this easy PSU soon. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Once you get to 80+ it turns into easy mode. at 100+ it's like you just turned on God Mode.



Really? Can't wait. Almost there. Only 13 more levels.

*On topic*

Rangers do deserve something. Even if it is small. I mean, Forces get to PWN with crazy Technics and Hunters get to slap enemies with a slew of weapons to choose from. And being a WT I get to enjoy both of those.

But Rangers should get some kind of extra PA's that add a extra move. If you played games like Samurai Warriors and Soul Calibur, you know that people who wield bows or rifles for weapons can pull off some crazy stuff. Why not add that to PSU. I mean it is a futuristic game. Hit the crazy ablilities button Sonic team.

I mean you did it for Spears and Twin Claws... -_-

...oh wait, those came out wierd... too late... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Satter
Feb 14, 2008, 03:57 PM
On 2008-02-14 12:29, Anduril wrote:

On 2008-02-14 12:27, Ken_Silver wrote:

On 2008-02-14 12:17, Akaimizu wrote:
Not today. Nobody dies today. Guardians are too strong and mobs are too weak. In fact, in lots of cases, I'm just as susceptible to dying due to my lowered defense and HP. But with today's easy streak, they run in for raw damage with little worry about incapacitation.



Where is this easy PSU game that people play? I can't find it.

I'm always getting tossed around by mobs and loosing 10 scapedolls per A ranked mission.

I need to find this easy PSU soon. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Once you get to 80+ it turns into easy mode. at 100+ it's like you just turned on God Mode.




If that's the case, then I sure haven't seen it while playing Motherbrain on S rank. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif







<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Satter on 2008-02-14 13:20 ]</font>

Satter
Feb 14, 2008, 04:02 PM
I'd also love to see FG have avaliability to all S rank guns. I mean, I specialize in guns as a Fortegunner. Guns are my life, as a Fortegunner. And I cannot handle S rank twin handguns? I understand it's about balance, but that just doesn't seem right to me.

Akaimizu
Feb 14, 2008, 04:02 PM
On 2008-02-14 12:38, Cerberus1981 wrote:

Plus I'm just happy we can now find the rares we crave.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cerberus1981 on 2008-02-14 12:52 ]</font>


Now if only they can fix that Robot bug on the 360 version, we can go hunt those rares properly.

Mikura
Feb 14, 2008, 04:04 PM
On 2008-02-14 13:02, Satter wrote:
I'd also love to see FG have avaliability to all S rank guns. I mean, I specialize in guns as a Fortegunner. Guns are my life, as a Fortegunner. And I cannot handle S rank twin handguns? I understand it's about balance, but that just doesn't seem right to me.



Yeah, I've been wanting that too for a long ass time...

Akaimizu
Feb 14, 2008, 04:09 PM
My only worry is that ST is keen to put the nerf on Ranger weapons very fast in this game. It would be neat to see them get S rank weapons without ST going too far and nerfing the whole line of them, just because Fortegunners got them. And yes, right now, the S ranks aren't exactly super duper over A ranks, including some later-to-be-released A rank; but I have my doubts that ST would put that into consideration before nerfing the line.

The other bad part is that the S rank Twins really aren't that neat for Fortegunners to really want them in comparison to the much cooler S ranks they do get.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-14 13:12 ]</font>

Doh42
Feb 14, 2008, 04:09 PM
Rangers have plenty of "spice" PAs, but when I talk to my rangers friend, most of them refuse to use them. Mayalee Fury is probably the funniest tool in my fighgunner's arsenal. The HP-stealing grenade looks fun as heck (I want it for my PT) and the charm shotgun sounds like a lot of fun.

It seems ranger want to deal the most damage they can, and thus try to use the opposite element of the mob as often as possible, which often results in multiple low level bullet arts, and no variety in gameplay. That's my observations.

As far as efficiency goes, shooting 2x 700 bullet damage and giving zalure to every mob in the game (except bosses) with level 40 twin mayalee, I can pretty much guarantee that this amount of damage at that range is absurdly broken compared to melee PAs. It may lack the "impression of power", but it make things die, painlessly.

Mikura
Feb 14, 2008, 04:16 PM
On 2008-02-14 13:09, Akaimizu wrote:
My only worry is that ST is keen to put the nerf on Ranger weapons very fast in this game. It would be neat to see them get S rank weapons without ST going too far and nerfing the whole line of them, just because Fortegunners got them. And yes, right now, the S ranks aren't exactly super duper over A ranks, including some later-to-be-released A rank; but I have my doubts that ST would put that into consideration before nerfing the line.

The other bad part is that the S rank Twins really aren't that neat for Fortegunners to really want them in comparison to the much cooler S ranks they do get.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-14 13:12 ]</font>


I still get awfully bored being stuck with my A ranks. The new Tenoras that were added in AotI makes things a bit more interesting though.

Akaimizu
Feb 14, 2008, 04:18 PM
I'd be a bit more excited with my weapon set if I can get some of my other S ranks, though. In particular, I'd love to get the Crossbow. (Darn robot bug) And hopefully, I'll get super duper lucky and land a bow. I'm just glad I got access to S rank twins and am borrowing the mech guns. As of right now, that's what I got.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-14 13:19 ]</font>

Tetsaru
Feb 14, 2008, 04:18 PM
On 2008-02-14 11:57, New_One wrote:
I reckon gun specific 'secondary attacks' would be a good idea if it were properly balanced. It could use the same button as the melee PA.

Rifle: - Fires concentrated bullet of whatever element you have attached to it, like 200% increased rate of infecting the enemy with respecive SE. With reduced range/damage to compensate. Or just a PP increase.

Machinegun: A 'magazine discharge' attack which deals very quick and huge damage as if you emptied the whole PP gauge (which it does), but maybe with a 15% att bonus or something.

Shotgun: Could just be the glitch they took out, with a PP cost of an additional 50% you can attack two enemies with all bullets when in close proxitmity.

Laser Cannons: Charge shot which deals extra damage depending on how long you hold the button down. Costs additional PP, and if interupted during charge PP is lost in process.

Crossbows: Piercing bolts, costs additional PP

Twin handguns: A 'just attack' combo kinda thing, a succession of correctly timed attacks gives the proceding attack more damage, can be used only three attacks in a row. Eg. normal, heavy, heavier damage.

Grenade Launcher: 'Cluster Bomb' Only hits one hitbox per grenade. Grenade impacts and detonates several charges and causes multiple damage 'ticks'. (Could just be like a normal grenade except its concentrated onto one hitbox)

Just a few ideas, probably horribly broken, but its the concept which I think is good.

Each second attack keeps the element % and SE.
And obviously are only usable by ranger orientated classes.



I think rangers need something along this line. For us, the PA attack button has no use, and I find that really disappointing. =/

Some of my suggestions:

- Have the ability to use two different bullets to a single gun weapon, similar to how wands and tech-mags can use two different techs.

- For rifles, have certain melee-type moves that don't do damage (so they don't cross over into Hunter territory), but do other tactical things. For example, a lot of people say we should have a Halo-like gun melee attack; I could see using this for knocking enemies down or away (WITHOUT doing damage) so that gunners can move into a safe firing position. Or, a bayonet-style attack that could inflict your rifle bullet's SE to a single enemy, but dependent upon how high its level is (if you had Frozen Shot lv1, you could only inflict a lv2 freeze, but at lv21, you could inflict a lv4 freeze). It could possibly fail also, but it offers a slightly different alternative to trap usage.

- Lasers DEFINITELY need some sort of charge-up attack; I want to be able to CHARGE MAH LAZER, lol. Personally, I'd love to see ST release a Dr. Eggman-style laser cannon weapon (or even something like an Omega range-mag) that made all the charge-up and firing noises that were prevalent in the old Sonic games (think Flying Battery zone or the giant robot in the Death Egg level).

- Handguns could also have a "pistol-whip" melee attack similar to what I mentioned above with rifles, or something like a burst shot that fired 3 bullets at once, but would have a delay afterwards to allow your gun to "cool down" or something.

- Grenade launchers could use a missle-launcher style attack, or something like a fly-by-wire shot that you could guide, perhaps similarly to how the Nos- techs work.

- PA's could be developed for certain single-handed weapon combinations, like Saber+Handgun, or Dagger+Mechgun, etc. AF's and other classes could have a blast with this too. Hell, forces that use the Wand+Tech-mag combo could "dual-wield" certain techs, similar to how those one enemies (forgot their names) in the Awakened Serpent mission can throw two Foies at once.

- One-handed weapons could also be equipped in either hand for style/preference purposes, and POSSIBLY, you could have two one-handed weapons of the same type which could use PA's of their "twin" type (for example, you could wield a Crimson + a Blackheart, but could use Splendor Crush, or Gravity Strike with one and Rising Strike with the other).

Lol, I got a little off gunners there, but I think moves like this would be a cool addition, as long as they weren't made too brokenly powerful.

Ken_Silver
Feb 14, 2008, 04:24 PM
On 2008-02-14 13:18, Tetsaru wrote:

On 2008-02-14 11:57, New_One wrote:
I reckon gun specific 'secondary attacks' would be a good idea if it were properly balanced. It could use the same button as the melee PA.

Rifle: - Fires concentrated bullet of whatever element you have attached to it, like 200% increased rate of infecting the enemy with respecive SE. With reduced range/damage to compensate. Or just a PP increase.

Machinegun: A 'magazine discharge' attack which deals very quick and huge damage as if you emptied the whole PP gauge (which it does), but maybe with a 15% att bonus or something.

Shotgun: Could just be the glitch they took out, with a PP cost of an additional 50% you can attack two enemies with all bullets when in close proxitmity.

Laser Cannons: Charge shot which deals extra damage depending on how long you hold the button down. Costs additional PP, and if interupted during charge PP is lost in process.

Crossbows: Piercing bolts, costs additional PP

Twin handguns: A 'just attack' combo kinda thing, a succession of correctly timed attacks gives the proceding attack more damage, can be used only three attacks in a row. Eg. normal, heavy, heavier damage.

Grenade Launcher: 'Cluster Bomb' Only hits one hitbox per grenade. Grenade impacts and detonates several charges and causes multiple damage 'ticks'. (Could just be like a normal grenade except its concentrated onto one hitbox)

Just a few ideas, probably horribly broken, but its the concept which I think is good.

Each second attack keeps the element % and SE.
And obviously are only usable by ranger orientated classes.



I think rangers need something along this line. For us, the PA attack button has no use, and I find that really disappointing. =/

Some of my suggestions:

- Have the ability to use two different bullets to a single gun weapon, similar to how wands and tech-mags can use two different techs.

- For rifles, have certain melee-type moves that don't do damage (so they don't cross over into Hunter territory), but do other tactical things. For example, a lot of people say we should have a Halo-like gun melee attack; I could see using this for knocking enemies down or away (WITHOUT doing damage) so that gunners can move into a safe firing position. Or, a bayonet-style attack that could inflict your rifle bullet's SE to a single enemy, but dependent upon how high its level is (if you had Frozen Shot lv1, you could only inflict a lv2 freeze, but at lv21, you could inflict a lv4 freeze). It could possibly fail also, but it offers a slightly different alternative to trap usage.

- Lasers DEFINITELY need some sort of charge-up attack; I want to be able to CHARGE MAH LAZER, lol. Personally, I'd love to see ST release a Dr. Eggman-style laser cannon weapon (or even something like an Omega range-mag) that made all the charge-up and firing noises that were prevalent in the old Sonic games (think Flying Battery zone or the giant robot in the Death Egg level).

- Handguns could also have a "pistol-whip" melee attack similar to what I mentioned above with rifles, or something like a burst shot that fired 3 bullets at once, but would have a delay afterwards to allow your gun to "cool down" or something.

- Grenade launchers could use a missle-launcher style attack, or something like a fly-by-wire shot that you could guide, perhaps similarly to how the Nos- techs work.

- PA's could be developed for certain single-handed weapon combinations, like Saber+Handgun, or Dagger+Mechgun, etc. AF's and other classes could have a blast with this too. Hell, forces that use the Wand+Tech-mag combo could "dual-wield" certain techs, similar to how those one enemies (forgot their names) in the Awakened Serpent mission can throw two Foies at once.

- One-handed weapons could also be equipped in either hand for style/preference purposes, and POSSIBLY, you could have two one-handed weapons of the same type which could use PA's of their "twin" type (for example, you could wield a Crimson + a Blackheart, but could use Splendor Crush, or Gravity Strike with one and Rising Strike with the other).

Lol, I got a little off gunners there, but I think moves like this would be a cool addition, as long as they weren't made too brokenly powerful.



"You're no match for me, Jarba!"

I'd die of laughter if that became a second laser PA or something. So epic.

I'd have to create a "Megaman" character or something. Just too funny. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Yusaku_Kudou
Feb 14, 2008, 04:26 PM
Get your twin handgun bullets to 31+ (all of them) and use them against the opposite element enemies and tell me you're not doing awesome damage. Without a techer, I do 620-630 damage to jarbas in Seabed S2 per Twin Freeze bullet, and I'm just a newman. They go down faster than anybody else could take 'em (sans Killer Shot I suppose).

Akaimizu
Feb 14, 2008, 04:29 PM
I actually do that. Level 31+ bullets and level 21+ buffs on. Jarbas are pretty nice, in that regard. A very particular monster for which to see how well they work (outside of bosses in flight), even though I don't agree I taken them down faster than anybody else. They are great, but I've seen golden.

I was one of the first ever US guntechers/players to dedicate that task, so I definitely have 31+ bullets. But as of right now, for me, the Twin Gunnies are the Jarba killers. Funny enough, ground and ice were my first bullets to 31 and Jarbas just happened to be both opposite elements of them. (Though I have sympathy for the Lightning Jarbas. They're about as nerfed compared to everything else as the Lightning Dragon.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-14 13:38 ]</font>

SolomonGrundy
Feb 14, 2008, 05:08 PM
only 2 things I'd like to see:

1. a more compeling use for rifles besides killer shot

2. DoT (and really SEs) become usefull again. Currently they are only useful for soloing.

-Tidus_415-
Feb 14, 2008, 05:15 PM
Sounds like you fortegunners arent happy because they arent the best anymore like in V1. XD

chu-chu-chu
Feb 14, 2008, 05:32 PM
wow, lot's of bad ideas in this thread! lol!!!!

just make the y button useful for non-elemental pa's. ta-da variety in game play that rewards those who have leveled up bullets.

dodging and other goofy nonsense does sound cool, tho...

if this was Phantasy Star CONTRA! LOL!!

amirite?!

I WANT SPREAAAADDD!!!!! O.o!

rogue_robot
Feb 14, 2008, 06:04 PM
Meh, I'm one of those calling for an overhaul for all classes. The problem this game faces is that they took the classes of a game originally meant for frequent soloing and tried to make an entirely team-based game on a more-or-less intact rebuild of that game's engine.

That's where the baaaw and counter-baaaw-thinly-veiled-as-chastizing-baaaw keeps coming from. ST took the horridly-overpower classes of an ORPG which was designed such that the "O" (and thus team) element was optional, and tried (unsuccessfully) to gimp all of them in such a manner that would invoke team play.

...of course, gimping something never *promotes* anything, save baaaw. FFs baaaw-ed because FGs and their SEs were more valuable than MAJARRARAPE against some v1 enemies, FGs are now baaaw-ing because, in an effort to placate the fighters, ST rendered FGs' whole existence relatively meaningless, and FTs have always been complaining because first they were canned into support, and now they're just gimp all around (considering that all EVP means in this game is that their spell will get interrupted only for them to die anyway because they incidentally got caught in yet-another-rapid-fire-ranged-attack, the only enemy attacks that really mean shit in this game anyway, of which most are techs anyway and can't be dodged, yet still do enough to one-shot the Newman FT, even with high MST, while barely even scratching the Beast FF).


...although, I'm an "RPG Communist" in a sense, on my own private crusade for the abolition of arbitrary "classes," be they D&D's completely retarded archetypes, or PSU's slightly-less retarded ones: I've been trying to build my own personal RPG engine for damn near a decade now (most of that being just constant rebalancing, especially since I'm trying to place a greater emphasis on a character's tactical limitations rather than just pumping their ability scores as they level). Just give me some points to drop into the abilities I want when I level up, allow me to ignore the ones I don't want, and provide an auto-level feature for the less micromanagement-inclined. That way, my techer characters don't have to be burdened by worthless EVP if they don't want it, my hybrids can take the weapons and techs they want, rather that being stuck with certain options that mean nothing to them, etc., and we can all happly play the game the way we want to, without getting in others' ways all the time because we don't play a certain "class" the way they think it should be played.

And before someone says it, yes, I have Oblivion and play it on occasion - I just prefer PSU because of the sci-fi theme. I do like Mass Effect's system, though, even if it still does bind the player to certain classes. Fable's system sucked ass - melee was gimp, magic was uber-gimp to make even PSU's FTs look godly in comparison, and ranged was just retardedly broken. My brother, all in fun upon hearing about the, erm, glitch, actually sat there for two minutes on a ledge about the White Balverine, just holding the button to string the crossbow (and fire it on release). He then shot it in the ass - without a silver mod on the crossbow, any form of powerlevelling, or even an archer-type character - for something like 9999 damage, killing it instantly (he didn't even go through the numerous "phases" of the fight where the White Balverine periodically summons his minions).

Sekani
Feb 14, 2008, 07:09 PM
On 2008-02-14 13:26, Yusaku_Kudou wrote:
Get your twin handgun bullets to 31+ (all of them) and use them against the opposite element enemies and tell me you're not doing awesome damage. Without a techer, I do 620-630 damage to jarbas in Seabed S2 per Twin Freeze bullet, and I'm just a newman. They go down faster than anybody else could take 'em (sans Killer Shot I suppose).


You're lucky those Jarbas are melee-resistant http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But seriously, the ability to equip two bullet PAs to one weapon (with the second using the Y/triangle button) is an upgrade that's long past due.

stukasa
Feb 14, 2008, 07:23 PM
On 2008-02-14 16:09, Sekani wrote:

On 2008-02-14 13:26, Yusaku_Kudou wrote:
Get your twin handgun bullets to 31+ (all of them) and use them against the opposite element enemies and tell me you're not doing awesome damage. Without a techer, I do 620-630 damage to jarbas in Seabed S2 per Twin Freeze bullet, and I'm just a newman. They go down faster than anybody else could take 'em (sans Killer Shot I suppose).


You're lucky those Jarbas are melee-resistant http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But seriously, the ability to equip two bullet PAs to one weapon (with the second using the Y/triangle button) is an upgrade that's long past due.


Yeah, especially since most missions only have one or two dominant elements, I think that'd be a really nice feature. It'd be easy to do, too--they already have a similar system for tech weapons, and it's not like that PA button is being used for anything right now anyway...

Randomness
Feb 14, 2008, 07:30 PM
On 2008-02-14 16:23, stukasa wrote:

On 2008-02-14 16:09, Sekani wrote:

On 2008-02-14 13:26, Yusaku_Kudou wrote:
Get your twin handgun bullets to 31+ (all of them) and use them against the opposite element enemies and tell me you're not doing awesome damage. Without a techer, I do 620-630 damage to jarbas in Seabed S2 per Twin Freeze bullet, and I'm just a newman. They go down faster than anybody else could take 'em (sans Killer Shot I suppose).


You're lucky those Jarbas are melee-resistant http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But seriously, the ability to equip two bullet PAs to one weapon (with the second using the Y/triangle button) is an upgrade that's long past due.


Yeah, especially since most missions only have one or two dominant elements, I think that'd be a really nice feature. It'd be easy to do, too--they already have a similar system for tech weapons, and it's not like that PA button is being used for anything right now anyway...



Give the gunners the combat roll ability from some of the gunner enemies... except it probably doesn't help them any.

CelestialBlade
Feb 14, 2008, 07:32 PM
On 2008-02-14 16:30, Randomness wrote:

On 2008-02-14 16:23, stukasa wrote:

On 2008-02-14 16:09, Sekani wrote:

On 2008-02-14 13:26, Yusaku_Kudou wrote:
Get your twin handgun bullets to 31+ (all of them) and use them against the opposite element enemies and tell me you're not doing awesome damage. Without a techer, I do 620-630 damage to jarbas in Seabed S2 per Twin Freeze bullet, and I'm just a newman. They go down faster than anybody else could take 'em (sans Killer Shot I suppose).


You're lucky those Jarbas are melee-resistant http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But seriously, the ability to equip two bullet PAs to one weapon (with the second using the Y/triangle button) is an upgrade that's long past due.


Yeah, especially since most missions only have one or two dominant elements, I think that'd be a really nice feature. It'd be easy to do, too--they already have a similar system for tech weapons, and it's not like that PA button is being used for anything right now anyway...



Give the gunners the combat roll ability from some of the gunner enemies... except it probably doesn't help them any.



Sure it would, we'd *never* die. Give us that and make Scape Dolls 5 million each, that'll teach you other classes to dodge XD j/k

Ken_Silver
Feb 14, 2008, 08:31 PM
I'd find it hillarious if a group of 5 rangers could run a mission "Halo" style or with something of the like. I'd still be a WT but I'd be there just to see it unfold.

Ranger male # 1: "We put a hurting on those SEED-forms!"

Ranger male # 2: "KILLING SPREE!!!"

Me: " http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif "

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 09:29 AM
I'm not so sure about the melee handgun...lol, but still I think aside from being able to wield a sword and gun their should be something different about the rhythm of the handgun, or break it's shoot count down to a 1,2,3 tap method with criticals on perfectly synced attacks

Akaimizu
Feb 15, 2008, 09:33 AM
Well, if they want to go Halo style, the Melee Handgun would be godly in its first iteration. So much, that people might forgo some shooting just to melee with it.

(As Luke (Bungie game designer) joked about in a Podcast, "The Old Pistol was a weapon of skill and grace. I miss it.")

I do like the idea of some sort of advantage of special timed shooting, though to what degree of advantage, I'm not so sure. It kind of has to not break things, but also be enough to have people see a point in doing it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-15 06:34 ]</font>

Gunslinger-08
Feb 15, 2008, 09:34 AM
bayonets on rifles WOULD be nice. Either that, or something like a switch for standard shots or shots of damage emphasis. With the damage emphasis, you get a certain % boost to your damage output per shot, but your acc drops and the chance of you inflicting an SE gets cut in half or taken away altogether while you're in that mode.

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 09:43 AM
Think about this...The timing chain could be a maximum of 5 lets say. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5.
If you miss the timing there would be delayed slightly and you would have to start the chain over.
1 - 2 - 3 - miss.
1 - 2 -3 -4- miss.
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5.
If it was set up similar to this idea, you would be getting more damage per sec for timing your shots Perfect, and thus losing damage for incorrectly timing your shots.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy1423 on 2008-02-15 06:45 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy1423 on 2008-02-15 06:47 ]</font>

EngelBlut
Feb 15, 2008, 09:50 AM
im fine with ranger
two words: killer shot

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 10:02 AM
I mean yah, Killshot is not too bad, it’s my favorite PA, but that's really not the discussion here.
When I say Ranger overhaul I'm more specifically talking about the way rifle's attack, timing, criticals, and some other unique feature/s that would set the class apart from the others. The system of the ranger, if you will. You cannot deny the fact that as is, the ranger class is bare bones compared to the customization and attack systems of other weapons/classes.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy1423 on 2008-02-15 07:03 ]</font>

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 10:05 AM
Rangers right now do nothing but button mash. I don’t see why an attack system similar to melee weapons couldn't be implemented.

panzer_unit
Feb 15, 2008, 10:21 AM
On 2008-02-15 07:02, Andy1423 wrote:
When I say Ranger overhaul I'm more specifically talking about the way rifle's attack, timing, criticals, and some other unique feature/s that would set the class apart from the others.

Use better weapons. Yes rifles are boring, but they're also weak and you shouldn't be spending serious time on them in most missions.

Grenades, lasers, and shotguns all involve a lot of footwork and even some strategy. Far more entertaining to play and vastly more powerful besides.

Heck, use a handgun even, so you can strafe while shooting or bat stuff around in melee... you can change up between a lot of styles with a handgun and melee combo.

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 10:30 AM
That proves my point. The ICON of the Ranger is the Rifle. It should be the most used weapon out of the arsenal due to its qualities; however it’s currently not like that. All weapons are situational, but some weapons are losing their place cause of a much needed rebalance.

Same thing happened to Techers when MAG’s came out. They was no good reason to use a rod, it did just as much damage or less than a Magdoog-MAG and a wand and way less PP. BUT that’s why SEGA gave them a 20% for using RODS, cause that just makes sense.

You know what saying?

NO WEAPON SHOULD BE BORING, OR THERES SOMETHING WRONG



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy1423 on 2008-02-15 07:32 ]</font>

panzer_unit
Feb 15, 2008, 10:58 AM
On 2008-02-15 07:30, Andy1423 wrote:
That proves my point. The ICON of the Ranger is the Rifle. It should be the most used weapon out of the arsenal due to its qualities; however it’s currently not like that. All weapons are situational, but some weapons are losing their place cause of a much needed rebalance.

Same thing happened to Techers when MAG’s came out. They was no good reason to use a rod, it did just as much damage or less than a Magdoog-MAG and a wand and way less PP. BUT that’s why SEGA gave them a 20% for using RODS, cause that just makes sense.

You know what saying?


IMO Fortetechers weren't content to use Rods for what they're good at, so ST buffed rods so high that it didn't matter how you used them, they were just goddamn better than mags and wands. Now there's no point to mags and wands on FT and even less point than before to being anything besides an FT if you want to use attack techs.

Let's do the same thing for gunners then. BAWWWW in every thread on PSOW until rifles can fire a spread (shotgun) of SE4 (rifle) penetrating (laser) 300% ATP multi-hit knockdown (grenade) shots on the move (handgun) ... YAYFIXED right?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-02-15 07:59 ]</font>

Gunslinger-08
Feb 15, 2008, 11:03 AM
^ Um. No. Some of us are actually having a discussion, and now just BAWWWWWWWing over everything we don't have. If you don't have anything constructive to add, whether it be a valid argument against any changes or for changes, then don't contribute at all.

Kion
Feb 15, 2008, 11:12 AM
basically ranger should have some use for the PA button on guns:
- melee attack
- dodge
- or more PP consumption for a more powerful shot

which are already elements included in the game. human type enmies already have a roll and the gaurds on neudaiz have the ability to wack you with a bow. and hunter class has just attacks on the logic of "taking away some of the monotony," so how is mashing one button for rangers with out any timing what so ever not monotonous?

guns are already pretty powerful and have really decent damage output, so i think powered shots would be too unbalanced.

dodge roll i think should be implemented for all classes if they do. it would spice up PSU in general as well as the ranger class. but with everyone's bitching about how hard the game used to be and the inase nerf that followed (desert goliath used to be fun), it's really not necessary.

and for melee it would be cool for at least a little knockback (the bow attack the gaurds do is definately cool), but seriously how long does it take to switch to a handgun and saber and smash enemies away with a quick rising strike?

so the best idea i think is having just atack for guns. reading all the comments i tend to agree that ranger isn't meant to be flashy; it's "in the rear with the gear".

amtalx
Feb 15, 2008, 11:15 AM
His argument is valid. Having a "most-used" weapon is pointless and will only make an already simple game even more idiot-proof. Why did ST go through all the trouble of making a wide variety of weapons if we are only supposed to use one of them? Saying rangers should only use Rifles most of the time is like saying FGs should use Double Sabers most of the time. Catastrophic Fail.

panzer_unit
Feb 15, 2008, 11:25 AM
On 2008-02-15 08:03, Gunslinger-08 wrote:
^ Um. No. Some of us are actually having a discussion, and now just BAWWWWWWWing over everything we don't have. If you don't have anything constructive to add, whether it be a valid argument against any changes or for changes, then don't contribute at all.


"Some of us" includes me too, even if I disagree with the OP. Here's something constructive I'm trying to add, but because I'm not lobbying to give our class a reacharound everyone tells me to STFU instead of dealing with it:
GUNNERS HAVE LOTS OF REALLY FUN OPTIONS ALREADY

Last I checked, lasers and grenades and shotguns were also "signature" gunner weapons. In addition to that we can make good use of the same melee PAs that everyone holds up as the very most fun ability any job's got in this game. Fantasizing about all kinds of candyland gameplay changes is a fun diversion, I do that too, but hey if you've got a real problem you get off your ass and take PRACTICAL action - like making use of the awesome set of stuff we already have.

If all you ever use is a rifle and you're jealous of all the cool crap everyone else can do, that's not ST's problem to fix.

Akaimizu
Feb 15, 2008, 11:26 AM
On 2008-02-15 08:15, amtalx wrote:
His argument is valid. Having a "most-used" weapon is pointless and will only make an already simple game even more idiot-proof. Why did ST go through all the trouble of making a wide variety of weapons if we are only supposed to use one of them? Saying rangers should only use Rifles most of the time is like saying FGs should use Double Sabers most of the time. Catastrophic Fail.


True, but we've had a few catastrophic fails from ST, at this point, that still need to be addressed. There are still some weapons that are the 80% win button, right now. Giving everybody the gameplay that adds fun by working in switched weapon-sets is a big part of the game. Stuff that gets in the way does cheapen it. Flash is one thing, power is another, if there's one thing I kind of like from these suggestions is the little stuff that means a lot. Little control perks that spice up gameplay.

One of the perks of PSO, at the time, was not only the free movement you did (for that time), but button timings and the like. The nifty little way that trying to jam all hard attacks reduced your accurracy like crazy, but if you ordered your attacks well and hit those combos, you had a nice pattern of weak, weak, hard; Weak, hard, hard; weak, hard, special. Of course, nothing as big as that, even Just Attacks aren't quite that much button logic.

I also like the idea that perhaps the good idea is that you weren't all flash, but substance from the back; but I wouldn't mind a little spice up of what goes behind the scenes. A little control spice up goes a long way. It's the little things.

This discussion isn't really all about power or flash. However, it seems, with these discussions, nobody can mentally seem to ever separate the logic. It seems one can't even talk about something that does a nifty change from the simple button mash to something neater, that might even hardly make a dent in the *in game* power boost aspect without somebody taking it as a power boost aspect. Throwing words in stuff they never said. That's what I see, am I wrong?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-15 08:34 ]</font>

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 11:28 AM
IMO Fortetechers weren't content to use Rods for what they're good at, so ST buffed rods so high that it didn't matter how you used them, they were just goddamn better than mags and wands. Now there's no point to mags and wands on FT and even less point than before to being anything besides an FT if you want to use attack techs.

Let's do the same thing for gunners then. BAWWWW in every thread on PSOW until rifles can fire a spread (shotgun) of SE4 (rifle) penetrating (laser) 300% ATP multi-hit knockdown (grenade) shots on the move (handgun) ... YAYFIXED right?


There are illogical reasons in your words. First of all a Rod is a 2-handed weapon, thus it should rightfully be stronger. Second of all, ForteTECH’s cannot use S rank MAG’s, so of course there going to want and use rods, however I do believe MAG’s and wands cast faster than Rods. So yeah if their going to support their party, they just might use MAG’s and Wands. And if you think we are talking about crazy mods to the rifle then you’re are just plain dumb. OAJDHEWETSGFOH YAH!!!! LETS HAVE SUPER SWEET MULTI SHOOT MISSLE NUKE BOMB FIRE ICE BLAH BLAH BLAH LAZER RIFLES!!!!!! SHUT IT
Tweaks!!!

YOU think the only Melee classes are entitled to critical attacks (just attack)????

And for that matter, What if we had the ability to have 2 bullets added to the rifle? YOU think that would complexly change the way the game plays? You think that's OVERPOWERED



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy1423 on 2008-02-15 08:32 ]</font>

panzer_unit
Feb 15, 2008, 11:40 AM
I wouldn't argue if every attack type would deal critical damage on Just Counter (except Shotguns would go over 9000) ... but Just Attack at range would require that every good gunner attack now gets completely nerfed, and wouldn't add any depth to gameplay besides since you've rarely got outside factors that would throw off your timing at all.

Sora_Psu
Feb 15, 2008, 11:46 AM
i would love to see actual PAs for the RA classes. like for dual guns a gunslinger shot where u spin in a circle and spread u guns out n just blast away john woo style. Like most have said a charge shot for the lazer. A barrel roll for the rifle like the illuminus bots..i mean there are so many opprotunities.

Weeaboolits
Feb 15, 2008, 12:29 PM
Just make the bullets look a bit different when they level or something, give rifles a louder bang when it hits 11, I'd be happy with this, the thing I don't like about leveling bullets is sure it's stronger and has better SE, but it doesn't really look or feel stronger.

Although, heavy attack for the triangle button would be nice, kill the ata and slow it down for some added oomph.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ronin_Cooper on 2008-02-15 09:30 ]</font>

Jife_Jifremok
Feb 15, 2008, 12:36 PM
On 2008-02-15 07:21, panzer_unit wrote:
Use better weapons. Yes rifles are boring, but they're also weak and you shouldn't be spending serious time on them in most missions.

Grenades, lasers, and shotguns all involve a lot of footwork and even some strategy. Far more entertaining to play and vastly more powerful besides.

Heck, use a handgun even, so you can strafe while shooting or bat stuff around in melee... you can change up between a lot of styles with a handgun and melee combo.


This right here is pretty much exactly why rifles became my most hated weapon. Except back when I started hating rifles, they were INSANELY powerful because their DoTs would outclass most if not all forms of direct damage. So the most boring, easiest to use, AND safest weapon to use was also the most powerful. The result was nearly every range at that time being a rifle-toting coward. I was pretty much unique in my refusal to use them. I had to come up with various tactics, not to mention put considerable effort, into my fighting so I could do any damage that could possibly compete with rifles...and all THEY had to do was just plink away from afar with no effort at all. Rifles were the win button back then, now they're not and other weapons are viable because of this. They may be a little TOO weak now, but I won't care till they get spiced up with semi-auto firing mode or something to break their monotony.


On 2008-02-15 08:25, panzer_unit wrote:
GUNNERS HAVE LOTS OF REALLY FUN OPTIONS ALREADY

Last I checked, lasers and grenades and shotguns were also "signature" gunner weapons. In addition to that we can make good use of the same melee PAs that everyone holds up as the very most fun ability any job's got in this game.
So, if you want melee as a gunner, use a saber, dagger or spear, or go switch to Protranser and get melee AND gunning (and even a mega win button as a bonus). I see no hope in getting any cool pistol whips or bayonet stabs simply because of thoughts like "that's why sabers and daggers are coupled with handguns" and "that's what spears and/or shotguns are for".

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 12:39 PM
I wouldn't argue if every attack type would deal critical damage on Just Counter (except Shotguns would go over 9000) ... but Just Attack at range would require that every good gunner attack now gets completely nerfed, and wouldn't add any depth to gameplay besides since you've rarely got outside factors that would throw off your timing at all.


This is a very good point.

I believe that all Class types are entitled to a “just attack”. However, the way rifles ( guns for that matter…not just the rifle) fire, yes, being able to do a critical on every attack from far away doesn’t make sense. Especially since the rifle has a fast firing rate. But to keep the bullets intact, so they don’t get nurft, and giving the Y button (PA button) a use, I’m suggesting something different.

What if the rifles bullet count was capped. I.E. Think Melee….3 part combo for regular attack, and 2 to 3 part combo PA attack.
For instance, X would represent regular attack, and Y would represent strong attack/Just attack. And lets say for this example REG attk gets a 3 count and Hard/Just attk gets a 1/2 count, based off of TWO handed/SINGLE handed. Also assume that HARD/Just attk takes longer to physically shoot.

(X = correct timing, x* = missed timing, Y = correct timing, y* = missed timing ° = end of attk chain)
( Damage Comparison X = x**, X < Y, X = y.
Note: * A missed attk loses the chance to reach the next succession of the Chain, the total possible being 5.
**This does not include the chance to do a critical on the first 3 attks based on luck.

EX. Point Value for variables X, x, y = 1 Y = 2

--2-Handed ranged

X, X, X, Y, Y = 7 . Bonus of +2
Perfect timing - 0 potential of Chain

X, X, X, Y, y = 6 . Bonus of +1
1 Miss - 0 potential of Chain

X, X, X, y, ° = 4 . Bonus of +0
1 Miss -1 potential of Chain

X, X, x, ° = 3 . Bonus of +0
1 Miss -2 potential of Chain

X, x, ° = 2 . Bonus of +0
1 Miss -3 potential of Chain

--1-Single Handed ranged

X, X, X, Y = 5 . Bonus of +2
Perfect timing - 0 potential of Chain

X, X, X, y = 4 . Bonus of +1
1 Miss - 0 potential of Chain

X, X, x, ° = 3 . Bonus of +0
1 Miss -1 potential of Chain

X, x, ° = 2 . Bonus of +0
1 Miss -2 potential of Chain


+ This does not include chance of interruption.
++First attk will always count in the chain.

I feel that a similar system would not be overpowered, would keep bullets intact, and would separate the skilled players from the less skilled. Also, if the speed of single handed and 2 handed weapons varied it would balance the use for both.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy1423 on 2008-02-15 10:33 ]</font>

panzer_unit
Feb 15, 2008, 01:30 PM
Isn't boosting damage on rifles sort of irrelevant since they'd have to hit five times as hard before they could do damage to match laser/shotgun/grenade?

In the few situations where they're a competitive weapon they're quite fun to use... sniping weakpoints on flying bosses, blowing up robots and other low-sta critters...

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 01:38 PM
It's not irrelevant because the shots proceeding could do 2x damage, but the later shots are a controlled variable as well as your total potential for damage, thus making the weapon more deadly in the hands of a skilled player.

I think it's only part of the solution. Laser, Shotgun, and Grenade are special because they are 2 handed, but they're also in a HEAVY sort of class. I think timing system for them would be different.

Plus I agree that attking their weak spot that only a rifle or accurate weapon could reach, making other weapons that do good damage more situational



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy1423 on 2008-02-15 10:43 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy1423 on 2008-02-15 10:44 ]</font>

chu-chu-chu
Feb 15, 2008, 01:44 PM
Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button. Non-elemental PAs on Y button.

kthxbai.

LOL!!!!

Hrith
Feb 15, 2008, 01:49 PM
I don't understand why rangers would need to be stronger, Fortegunner is already the best solo class.

Maybe if people were actually good at the job.
The difference between range and melee is that even poor players can do well with melee.
Conclusion: get better.

Barrel rolls would be fun, but they'd just slow me down.

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 01:50 PM
Well for that matter why not make RB (weapon swap/alt) detirmine which PA. But only on 2 handed ranged, the same way RODs can be assigned 4 spells. We get the x normal/reg attk y hard attk, then the RB swaps the bullets. HHHMMMMM that might be too sweet.

freeze, freeze, freeze... killshot, killshot, killshot

panzer_unit
Feb 15, 2008, 01:51 PM
... but there's nothing wrong with lasers, grenades, and shotguns. They're already stupidly powerful and a hell of a lot of fun to use.

chu-chu-chu
Feb 15, 2008, 01:55 PM
On 2008-02-15 10:49, Hrith wrote:
I don't understand why rangers would need to be stronger, Fortegunner is already the best solo class.

Maybe if people were actually good at the job.
The difference between range and melee is that even poor players can do well with melee.
Conclusion: get better.

Barrel rolls would be fun, but they'd just slow me down.

LOL! Here are two things that aren't the same:

gunner is weak.

gunner is monotonous.

YOUR AWESOME< THO!!!!

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 01:57 PM
I don't understand why rangers would need to be stronger, Fortegunner is already the best solo class.

Maybe if people were actually good at the job.
The difference between range and melee is that even poor players can do well with melee.
Conclusion: get better.

I’m not necessarily saying make the rangers stronger, I’m saying give the more advanced player a chance to do more damage. Or more specifically, have the ability to do just attack. This is not an unreasonable claim.

chu-chu-chu
Feb 15, 2008, 02:01 PM
On 2008-02-15 10:57, Andy1423 wrote:

I don't understand why rangers would need to be stronger, Fortegunner is already the best solo class.

Maybe if people were actually good at the job.
The difference between range and melee is that even poor players can do well with melee.
Conclusion: get better.

I’m not necessarily saying make the rangers stronger, I’m saying give the more advanced player a chance to do more damage. Or more specifically, have the ability to do just attack. This is not an unreasonable claim.

the mroe advanced player has higher pa's and does more damage though already, ya kow?

LOL! "kow". I meant "know" but that was too funny to change!!!!

"."___/

RemiusTA
Feb 15, 2008, 02:10 PM
The most damage on this game comes from the level of your PAs.

Which is why Fortefighter gets higher attack PA's than a Fighgunner. If you have a lvl 120 Fortefighter with a Crimson and lvl 20 Raising strike vs. a lvl 90 Fortefighter with lv 40 Raising strike, im pretty sure the lv90 player would do considerably more damage, or at least equal damage.

panzer_unit
Feb 15, 2008, 02:14 PM
On 2008-02-15 10:57, Andy1423 wrote:
I’m not necessarily saying make the rangers stronger, I’m saying give the more advanced player a chance to do more damage.


Trust me, "advanced" gunners already deal way more damage than scrubs. Like two or three times as much, because they're picking weapons and shooting better. You'd know if you saw one in action.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-02-15 11:18 ]</font>

EMPYREAN
Feb 15, 2008, 02:28 PM
hmm power wise rangers dont need a boost but they need a "super bullet"
some ideas from me:

-rifle, a simple power bullet that does double dmg and costs 2 times the normal pp
-Ggun, a flash/stun granade that blindes enemys and cost 2 times the normal pp
-bow, fire 3 arrows at the same time but whit 30% less dmg per arrow and 10pp more to use.
-Twin pistol/pistol, penetrating bullets costs 4 pp more
-shotty, fire a "slug" that hits for half the normal dmg of all the 5 spreads combined but tosses the enemy miles away, costs 5 pp more
-laser, a charge mode that when ready fires 3 laser shots in 1 sec, costs 6 pp more
-xbow, fires 3 bolts straigt forward, no dmg reduction, costs 2 pp more
-cards, bullets move twice as fast straigh tforward and has no "homing", costs 3 pp more

hmm thats not a bad list IMO, lol but im shure some things has allready been said.

Shiro_Ryuu
Feb 15, 2008, 02:44 PM
I agree with Hrith, Rangers are fine just as they are, they don't need improvements. Also, Remius, FF doesn't have higher skills PAs than FI, its the same.

panzer_unit
Feb 15, 2008, 03:04 PM
On 2008-02-15 11:28, EMPYREAN wrote:
hmm power wise rangers dont need a boost but ...

Its funny how often people say gunners don't need a power boost, and in the next line dream up new abilities that deal 50~100% more damage...

I don't think Fortefighter needs to do more damage, but they should get +100% to the ATP modifier on all their skills anyway.

Andy1423
Feb 15, 2008, 03:16 PM
Once again damage is not the main point I’m trying to make kids.
There is nothing skilled about button mashing. Melee users lvl PA's faster because of damage. Now, because of intentional critical hits they level them even faster. So your saying weak players have low PA skills. That's not necessarily true, with rangers PA's lvl on hits. So some douche bag could "Afk lvl" his bullets. Does that make him a more skilled player? I think not.
I know how the shit goes, you’re not talking to a noob here. I know we do decent damage but once again you guys don't understand what I'm trying to say.
The way the guns shoot now is incredible dumb minded compared to the timing system of PSO style weaponry. If a similar system was in place, even more scrubs would fail to become good rangers.

Wouldn’t you guys like something to freshen up the monotony of x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x.??????

You guys think that rangers/techers aren’t entitled to a just attack system?

3nascar3fan3
Feb 15, 2008, 03:25 PM
give rangers a fps shooter mode where they can MOVE and shoot or do something like Hellgate London where they can strafe and shoot all of the time and something where the can plant themselves (become stationary until they press the button again) and do more damage or shoot faster but if we are to do this the damage should be reduced and given a boost when planted to that of our current shots if not then better

i think that would be something to spice up the gameplay and we wont need a meet sheild (FF) to hold them in front of us when we cant move

chu-chu-chu
Feb 15, 2008, 03:29 PM
On 2008-02-15 12:16, Andy1423 wrote:
Once again damage is not the main point I’m trying to make kids.
There is nothing skilled about button mashing. Melee users lvl PA's faster because of damage. Now, because of intentional critical hits they level them even faster. So your saying weak players have low PA skills. That's not necessarily true, with rangers PA's lvl on hits. So some douche bag could "Afk lvl" his bullets. Does that make him a more skilled player? I think not.
I know how the shit goes, you’re not talking to a noob here. I know we do decent damage but once again you guys don't understand what I'm trying to say.
The way the guns shoot now is incredible dumb minded compared to the timing system of PSO style weaponry. If a similar system was in place, even more scrubs would fail to become good rangers.

Wouldn’t you guys like something to freshen up the monotony of x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x.??????

You guys think that rangers/techers aren’t entitled to a just attack system?


Ay-yi-yi.

i think that we us noobs here are trying to tell you that if you think ranger is monotonous or repetitive or too much of the same thing over and over or unvaried then you need to think of a solution that isn't either obviously dumb (barrel rolls, LOL!) or a mega-power-super-strong attack. cuz those solutions jsut make morer problems.

my pa's are butt-kickers YEAH, and i dont afk level.

>.>

chu-chu-chu
Feb 15, 2008, 03:30 PM
when you play if you want to play rangers the way other games play than play other games so you can play the way you want to play as a player playing a game!

majan
Feb 15, 2008, 03:32 PM
here's an idea. maybe rangers should get an entirely new pallete of weapons that's exclusive only to rangers. also, let's make a race that is also ranger-only. they'd make better rangers than CASTs. more accuracy and more power and more HP and more defense and more TP for shadoogs too. and more evasion.

some of the new weapons would probably include something like Rocket Launchers(Tenora Works) which would work like a laser cannon and a grenade launcher combined except faster and like at least 300% the ATP. the PA's would all cost 10 meseta for this weapon,and each frag art would cost 6 PA fragments.

another weapon would be the Assault Rifle(GRM),which would be a combination of a regular rifle with a mechgun,kinda like old school PSO mechguns were except itll be one gun. except only it will fire at the same rate of a mechgun but have the ATP of a longbow. at level 11 it'll gain SE4 burning and from that point on itll only gain stats in accuracy and power, like 5% per level or something.

instead of a shadoog this new ranger class would also have a Satellite Pod which would take the place of a shadoog,except this one would perform exactly the same actions as a shadoog only instead of shooting bullets or lasers or watever,this one will deploy SUV's at the same rate. the rank of the Satellite Pod will determine what SUV is deployed each shot.

level 90 bullets
level 40 support techs with only A-rank wands/madoogs
exclusive access to 15* weapons in each category
level 20 skills,except for dus majarra,which will be allowed to cap at level 40.

or,we can leave rangers as they are now as the MASTERS of spreading status effects and kings of overall soloing capability with high-dps weapons like shotguns crossbows and grenade launchers. oh,right,they can use traps too. guntechers also can be entirely self-sustaining while arguably performing at a parallel level or better than a fortegunner,given level 30 supoprt techs. fighgunners can use level 30 bullets on twin pistols and crossbows is compromised by level 40 skills and a VERY generous assortment of melee weapons.

if you arent satisfied with a class,try optimizing it. do a little research as to what really can make your character shine while using what you enjoy using. invest the time and level the PA's and choose weapons accordingly,and enjoy. if this does not work,pick a different class. still not good? there are thousands of other RPG's just like this one. quit raiding our message board with retarted "suggestion box" bullshit like sega gives 2 shits what the players say, let alone the american ones on a site that has little to nothing to do with the main PSU site.

rangers are fine. what really needs a buff is the intelligence of those playing the game.

Ken_Silver
Feb 15, 2008, 03:32 PM
I see it this way:

Melee fighters have to time their attacks in order to do the max amount of damage.

Technic users have to get into proper positioning or proper range for the Technic to connect, keep themselves alive due to their weak defense and (if they are a healer/buffer) do their best to keep the party healed.

Rangers... well they just line up and shoot. Sure you do switch your gun to match the enemy, but all classes do that.

TC is right. They do need something new to break up the x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x, or down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, pattern that they have now.

chu-chu-chu
Feb 15, 2008, 03:33 PM
On 2008-02-15 12:32, majan wrote:
here's an idea. maybe rangers should get an entirely new pallete of weapons that's exclusive only to rangers. also, let's make a race that is also ranger-only. they'd make better rangers than CASTs. more accuracy and more power and more HP and more defense and more TP for shadoogs too. and more evasion.

some of the new weapons would probably include something like Rocket Launchers(Tenora Works) which would work like a laser cannon and a grenade launcher combined except faster and like at least 300% the ATP. the PA's would all cost 10 meseta for this weapon,and each frag art would cost 6 PA fragments.

another weapon would be the Assault Rifle(GRM),which would be a combination of a regular rifle with a mechgun,kinda like old school PSO mechguns were except itll be one gun. except only it will fire at the same rate of a mechgun but have the ATP of a longbow. at level 11 it'll gain SE4 burning and from that point on itll only gain stats in accuracy and power, like 5% per level or something.

instead of a shadoog this new ranger class would also have a Satellite Pod which would take the place of a shadoog,except this one would perform exactly the same actions as a shadoog only instead of shooting bullets or lasers or watever,this one will deploy SUV's at the same rate. the rank of the Satellite Pod will determine what SUV is deployed each shot.

level 90 bullets
level 40 support techs with only A-rank wands/madoogs
exclusive access to 15* weapons in each category
level 20 skills,except for dus majarra,which will be allowed to cap at level 40.

or,we can leave rangers as they are now as the MASTERS of spreading status effects and kings of overall soloing capability with high-dps weapons like shotguns crossbows and grenade launchers. oh,right,they can use traps too. guntechers also can be entirely self-sustaining while arguably performing at a parallel level or better than a fortegunner,given level 30 supoprt techs. fighgunners can use level 30 bullets on twin pistols and crossbows is compromised by level 40 skills and a VERY generous assortment of melee weapons.

if you arent satisfied with a class,try optimizing it. do a little research as to what really can make your character shine while using what you enjoy using. invest the time and level the PA's and choose weapons accordingly,and enjoy. if this does not work,pick a different class. still not good? there are thousands of other RPG's just like this one. quit raiding our message board with retarted "suggestion box" bullshit like sega gives 2 shits what the players say, let alone the american ones on a site that has little to nothing to do with the main PSU site.

rangers are fine. what really needs a buff is the intelligence of those playing the game.

i like your ideas, but onyl if we can buy the 9 stars in the shops.

3nascar3fan3
Feb 15, 2008, 03:34 PM
On 2008-02-15 12:30, chu-chu-chu wrote:

when you play if you want to play rangers the way other games play than play other games so you can play the way you want to play as a player playing a game!



i think this was a response to my quote but i am not sure and i think he is basiclly telling me to go play HGL but the thing is that HGL is an unfinished game meaning that there was some great ideas in the game but they didnt develope them well enough (plus my computer cant run it well http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

but my idea was more to spice things up instead of standing in place pressing x,x,x,...

majan
Feb 15, 2008, 03:38 PM
On 2008-02-15 12:33, chu-chu-chu wrote:

On 2008-02-15 12:32, majan wrote:
here's an idea. maybe rangers should get an entirely new pallete of weapons that's exclusive only to rangers. also, let's make a race that is also ranger-only. they'd make better rangers than CASTs. more accuracy and more power and more HP and more defense and more TP for shadoogs too. and more evasion.

some of the new weapons would probably include something like Rocket Launchers(Tenora Works) which would work like a laser cannon and a grenade launcher combined except faster and like at least 300% the ATP. the PA's would all cost 10 meseta for this weapon,and each frag art would cost 6 PA fragments.

another weapon would be the Assault Rifle(GRM),which would be a combination of a regular rifle with a mechgun,kinda like old school PSO mechguns were except itll be one gun. except only it will fire at the same rate of a mechgun but have the ATP of a longbow. at level 11 it'll gain SE4 burning and from that point on itll only gain stats in accuracy and power, like 5% per level or something.

instead of a shadoog this new ranger class would also have a Satellite Pod which would take the place of a shadoog,except this one would perform exactly the same actions as a shadoog only instead of shooting bullets or lasers or watever,this one will deploy SUV's at the same rate. the rank of the Satellite Pod will determine what SUV is deployed each shot.

level 90 bullets
level 40 support techs with only A-rank wands/madoogs
exclusive access to 15* weapons in each category
level 20 skills,except for dus majarra,which will be allowed to cap at level 40.

or,we can leave rangers as they are now as the MASTERS of spreading status effects and kings of overall soloing capability with high-dps weapons like shotguns crossbows and grenade launchers. oh,right,they can use traps too. guntechers also can be entirely self-sustaining while arguably performing at a parallel level or better than a fortegunner,given level 30 supoprt techs. fighgunners can use level 30 bullets on twin pistols and crossbows is compromised by level 40 skills and a VERY generous assortment of melee weapons.

if you arent satisfied with a class,try optimizing it. do a little research as to what really can make your character shine while using what you enjoy using. invest the time and level the PA's and choose weapons accordingly,and enjoy. if this does not work,pick a different class. still not good? there are thousands of other RPG's just like this one. quit raiding our message board with retarted "suggestion box" bullshit like sega gives 2 shits what the players say, let alone the american ones on a site that has little to nothing to do with the main PSU site.

rangers are fine. what really needs a buff is the intelligence of those playing the game.

i like your ideas, but onyl if we can buy the 9 stars in the shops.



right I forgot to mention that. the aforementioned new buffed more exciting version of the ranger class will also have exclusive access to made 9* weapons in NPC shops. 10* boards will also be available to them on the weekends. and during passover.

Shiro_Ryuu
Feb 15, 2008, 03:39 PM
On 2008-02-15 12:32, majan wrote:
here's an idea. maybe rangers should get an entirely new pallete of weapons that's exclusive only to rangers. also, let's make a race that is also ranger-only. they'd make better rangers than CASTs. more accuracy and more power and more HP and more defense and more TP for shadoogs too. and more evasion.

some of the new weapons would probably include something like Rocket Launchers(Tenora Works) which would work like a laser cannon and a grenade launcher combined except faster and like at least 300% the ATP. the PA's would all cost 10 meseta for this weapon,and each frag art would cost 6 PA fragments.

another weapon would be the Assault Rifle(GRM),which would be a combination of a regular rifle with a mechgun,kinda like old school PSO mechguns were except itll be one gun. except only it will fire at the same rate of a mechgun but have the ATP of a longbow. at level 11 it'll gain SE4 burning and from that point on itll only gain stats in accuracy and power, like 5% per level or something.

instead of a shadoog this new ranger class would also have a Satellite Pod which would take the place of a shadoog,except this one would perform exactly the same actions as a shadoog only instead of shooting bullets or lasers or watever,this one will deploy SUV's at the same rate. the rank of the Satellite Pod will determine what SUV is deployed each shot.

level 90 bullets
level 40 support techs with only A-rank wands/madoogs
exclusive access to 15* weapons in each category
level 20 skills,except for dus majarra,which will be allowed to cap at level 40.




No, they need level 50 Majarra, plus level 50 Jabroga and Chikkin Kyoren jin too, then they'd be balanced.

Danger_Girl
Feb 15, 2008, 03:41 PM
On 2008-02-15 12:16, Andy1423 wrote:
The way the guns shoot now is incredible dumb minded compared to the timing system of PSO style weaponry.
Wouldn’t you guys like something to freshen up the monotony of x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x.??????


Eh, I agree with his point here. If you guys think the gunner gameplay is fine, then I'm happy for you. But personally, I think the gameplay for gunners is stale. I have no interest in seeing anything like barrel rolls or stuff like that. The only thing really needed is a use for that Y button. Whether it be non-elemental bullets, or gun specific attacks, or even some kind of PSO style power shot.

Gunslinger-08
Feb 15, 2008, 03:42 PM
On 2008-02-15 12:04, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2008-02-15 11:28, EMPYREAN wrote:
hmm power wise rangers dont need a boost but ...

Its funny how often people say gunners don't need a power boost, and in the next line dream up new abilities that deal 50~100% more damage...

I don't think Fortefighter needs to do more damage, but they should get +100% to the ATP modifier on all their skills anyway.


I agree. As to my earlier response to a post of yours, I had only been awake for a little bit and that one line about having a rifle that did everything just rubbed me the wrong way. I was being unnecessarily rude.

panzer_unit
Feb 15, 2008, 03:51 PM
On 2008-02-15 12:16, Andy1423 wrote:
Once again damage is not the main point I’m trying to make kids. ... You guys think that rangers/techers aren’t entitled to a just attack system?

Wow, you fit an entire post between "rangers don't need to do more damage" and "rangers should get a 50% damage boost from Just Attack"


There is nothing skilled about button mashing. ... The way the guns shoot now is incredible dumb minded compared to the timing system of PSO style weaponry. If a similar system was in place, even more scrubs would fail to become good rangers.

Wouldn’t you guys like something to freshen up the monotony of x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x.??????


I love how people act like attacking in PSO was some feat of skill. I finally met someone who can't pull it off in their sleep, she's 6 and has autism. I call it discrimination when someone wants a game system specifically to stop little handicapped kids from playing PSU.

Apparently the bar is way higher before someone's gonna realize that you might as well mash X in time to your shots and save wear on your controller, because going HAAAARDCOOORE on that button doesn't make you fire faster or anything. And in real life of course you frequently want to dodge, position for double-hits, and aim for additional targets.


Melee users lvl PA's faster because of damage. Now, because of intentional critical hits they level them even faster. ...
I know how the shit goes, you’re not talking to a noob here.

Melee users level PA's off of hits just like rangers and techers. JA doesn't speed up leveling skills, just like 50% element doesn't speed up leveling skills. The only attacks I've seen where you can power level the crap out of them are lasers, penetrating handguns, grenades, and Jabroga. They level like crazy when you take 'em to the right missions where the average number of targets you hit is WAY higher than average use anywhere else.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-02-15 13:10 ]</font>

Sekani
Feb 15, 2008, 06:26 PM
On 2008-02-15 12:51, panzer_unit wrote:

On 2008-02-15 12:16, Andy1423 wrote:
Once again damage is not the main point I’m trying to make kids. ... You guys think that rangers/techers aren’t entitled to a just attack system?

Wow, you fit an entire post between "rangers don't need to do more damage" and "rangers should get a 50% damage boost from Just Attack"


There is nothing skilled about button mashing. ... The way the guns shoot now is incredible dumb minded compared to the timing system of PSO style weaponry. If a similar system was in place, even more scrubs would fail to become good rangers.

Wouldn’t you guys like something to freshen up the monotony of x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x.??????


I love how people act like attacking in PSO was some feat of skill. I finally met someone who can't pull it off in their sleep, she's 6 and has autism. I call it discrimination when someone wants a game system specifically to stop little handicapped kids from playing PSU.

Apparently the bar is way higher before someone's gonna realize that you might as well mash X in time to your shots and save wear on your controller, because going HAAAARDCOOORE on that button doesn't make you fire faster or anything. And in real life of course you frequently want to dodge, position for double-hits, and aim for additional targets.
Man, who put a bee in your undies? God forbid the majority of players want to do something to make rangers less stupid boring (not more or less powerful, just more enticing to play), and you're so BAAAWWWWWW that you haven't made a single sane comment in this thread.

majan
Feb 16, 2008, 11:53 AM
I repeat:


On 2008-02-15 12:32, majan wrote:
here's an idea. maybe rangers should get an entirely new pallete of weapons that's exclusive only to rangers. also, let's make a race that is also ranger-only. they'd make better rangers than CASTs. more accuracy and more power and more HP and more defense and more TP for shadoogs too. and more evasion.

some of the new weapons would probably include something like Rocket Launchers(Tenora Works) which would work like a laser cannon and a grenade launcher combined except faster and like at least 300% the ATP. the PA's would all cost 10 meseta for this weapon,and each frag art would cost 6 PA fragments.

another weapon would be the Assault Rifle(GRM),which would be a combination of a regular rifle with a mechgun,kinda like old school PSO mechguns were except itll be one gun. except only it will fire at the same rate of a mechgun but have the ATP of a longbow. at level 11 it'll gain SE4 burning and from that point on itll only gain stats in accuracy and power, like 5% per level or something.

instead of a shadoog this new ranger class would also have a Satellite Pod which would take the place of a shadoog,except this one would perform exactly the same actions as a shadoog only instead of shooting bullets or lasers or watever,this one will deploy SUV's at the same rate. the rank of the Satellite Pod will determine what SUV is deployed each shot.

level 90 bullets
level 40 support techs with only A-rank wands/madoogs
exclusive access to 15* weapons in each category
level 20 skills,except for dus majarra,which will be allowed to cap at level 40.

or,we can leave rangers as they are now as the MASTERS of spreading status effects and kings of overall soloing capability with high-dps weapons like shotguns crossbows and grenade launchers. oh,right,they can use traps too. guntechers also can be entirely self-sustaining while arguably performing at a parallel level or better than a fortegunner,given level 30 supoprt techs. fighgunners can use level 30 bullets on twin pistols and crossbows is compromised by level 40 skills and a VERY generous assortment of melee weapons.

if you arent satisfied with a class,try optimizing it. do a little research as to what really can make your character shine while using what you enjoy using. invest the time and level the PA's and choose weapons accordingly,and enjoy. if this does not work,pick a different class. still not good? there are thousands of other RPG's just like this one. quit raiding our message board with retarted "suggestion box" bullshit like sega gives 2 shits what the players say, let alone the american ones on a site that has little to nothing to do with the main PSU site.

rangers are fine. what really needs a buff is the intelligence of those playing the game.


once again,if you are not satisfied with rangers,play with the class and adjust it to your preferences. this is why games like this are very deep so that you have a choice of what to use,and if this does not work,you have the option to switch classes. I tried the fortegunner thing,and I didnt find it very boring at all,because I adjusted my weapon and PA choice to what I enjoyed using while still being very effective in the game. maybe you should adjust your play style and stop running in groups of 6 level 115-120 players running white beast because then that becomes so damn easy its a wonder if you arent bored doing that.

let's be blunt. get a crossbow and invest the time levelling yak zagenga to 21. get burnt or use a megistaride and bring your HP down to 1. see how much damage you do,and enjoy. try to kill monsters faster than they can land that 1 shot on you. rinse and repeat. then come and say rangers are boring. then I'll suggest getting twin mayalee and tagging all the monsters with zalure so that your bonus damage with yak zagenga becomes even higher since the monsters have lower defense. coupled with the bonus dmage you get from having low HP,you have one thrilling situation where your doing upwards of 650 damage per bullet(thats well over 2000 per shot plugged into one target at the rate of a handgun,while strafing,mind you) killing things rather quickly all while having 1 hp,one shot to spare aand then you have to start all over again. this to me is not boring. levelling the bullets,yes,is boring. but apparently they tweaked how PA's level and make some level faster now so deal with it and invest the time like the rest of us did.

rangers are an acquired taste. it isn't going to bring immediate satisfaction like using a flashy skill PA or pretty technic. rangers are perfectly good at what they do if you know how to play an RPG and accelerate each class to the fullest of its potential. just because rangers arent as flashy and interesting as techers and fighters doesnt mean shit. function > flash. gunners are fine.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: majan on 2008-02-16 08:55 ]</font>

Danger_Girl
Feb 16, 2008, 12:08 PM
Well at least you've admit that gunners aren't very interesting to play, so I guess we're in agreement.


just because rangers arent as flashy and interesting as techers and fighters doesnt mean shit.

Actually it means exactly that. They aren't very flashy or interesting.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Danger_Girl on 2008-02-16 09:13 ]</font>

Alizarin
Feb 16, 2008, 12:19 PM
More like you have to be a little bit more creative when playing a gunner class to "spice" them up. Which is fine, since playing will obviously be boring if you end up just running through the same motions over and over without considering maybe an adjustment to play style or experimenting with various effects.

Danger_Girl
Feb 16, 2008, 12:28 PM
On 2008-02-16 09:19, Alizarin wrote:
More like you have to be a little bit more creative when playing a gunner class to "spice" them up. Which is fine, since playing will obviously be boring if you end up just running through the same motions over and over without considering maybe an adjustment to play style or experimenting with various effects.



Care to elaborate a little? I've tried doing some Annie Oakly type shooting...like behind my back, using mirrors, and standing on my head, but even that got old after awhile.

The thread is called rangers need an overhaul. That wording is too strong. They don't need an overhaul, and I don't think they're underpowered. But it sure would be nice if they had a non-melee use for that "Y" button...

majan
Feb 16, 2008, 12:35 PM
On 2008-02-16 09:08, Danger_Girl wrote:
Well at least you've admit that gunners aren't very interesting to play, so I guess we're in agreement.


just because rangers arent as flashy and interesting as techers and fighters doesnt mean shit.

Actually it means exactly that. They aren't very flashy or interesting.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Danger_Girl on 2008-02-16 09:13 ]</font>


no,I "admitted" that gunners can be boring in certain situations but thats when the game becomes boring,not just gunners.

also,by flashy,I mean visually pleasing. let's accept that killer shot and crossbows dont look nearly as cool as splendor crush or any twin dagger PA,anga redda, etc. you don't get the immediate satisfaction of whacking things across the room with a flaming sword,but if you want that satisfaction,then your class is forteFIGHTER,not forteGUNNER. if your playing a game for flashiness rather than playing through it and making progress and becoming skilled,then that's your bad. don't expect a lot out of tactical classes like fortegunner. if your definition of fun is something that fortegunner does not offer,than its up to you to make fun out of it or pick something thats more pleasing to you. don't rip on gunners because theres lots of people out there,myself included, who think that gunners are perfectly fine,balanced,fun,and exciting to play,if you know how to accelerate the class to the fullest of its potential. it isn't that hard,just a little patience and knowing how to play an RPG. you're right in saying they arent flashy,but they are very interesting. all it takes is a little thought.

Retniwreven
Feb 16, 2008, 12:50 PM
Rangers should be able to pistol-whip things with the PA button. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Ashkahn
Feb 16, 2008, 01:00 PM
I actually agree with Chu-chu-chu on the idea of the Y button for non-elemental PA's. It would be nice to have a "special attack" of that sort, especially since many of the non-elemental PA's are already special attack-ish (Incapacitate, HP Steal, etc.).

Of course, a dodge move would be nice too, for tight situations. But then I could imagine an army of Fortegunners cartwheeling their way across Seabed just for kicks.

Alizarin
Feb 16, 2008, 01:03 PM
On 2008-02-16 09:28, Danger_Girl wrote:
Care to elaborate a little? I've tried doing some Annie Oakly type shooting...like behind my back, using mirrors, and standing on my head, but even that got old after awhile.


Yes, even flashy moves can be boring after a while.

What I was getting at is creating more of an artificial challenge with what the game has to offer already. Like messing with gun and trap combinations under more hectic conditions. Basically, suggestions majan made already. I've always had the impression that long-range fighters (techers included) had to rely on a sense of strategy, especially in their aims to avoid getting hit or being the target of monster. Hit-and-run, sniping and positioning seem active, and not quite as boring in my case.

On the other hand, I've always been keen on having a dodge roll option. Though, I wasn't thinking of making it gunner-exclusive.

Retniwreven
Feb 16, 2008, 01:11 PM
Well, frankly I'd like to see the Y button do SOMEthing. Between Hunter types, Ranger types, and Force types, Ranger seems the least exciting, with a strategy consisting of "Stand in place, press buttan, receive bacon" with a little bit of sidestepping to keep a target in your sights, or dodge megid.

Sure, they're great at status ailments and whatnot, but it gets tiresome and hurts the thumb. I doubt we'll get anything, but variety WOULD be nice.

Alizarin
Feb 16, 2008, 01:32 PM
I see the variety in the gun types we have now to at least be different in adjusting how often you go "pew-pew-pew".

Although, now that I think about it, you could have that Left(Down?)/Triangle/Y button be a "set trap" option. Something along those lines with standard traps.

Shiryuu
Feb 16, 2008, 01:43 PM
Rapid fire would be nice. Eats way more PP but fire 3 bullets at once/less damage or something. It's not fair that the gunner casts in block 5 of amf gets to do it all the time.

Roll is pretty good too.

Danger_Girl
Feb 16, 2008, 02:14 PM
On 2008-02-16 09:35, majan wrote:
no,I "admitted" that gunners can be boring in certain situations but thats when the game becomes boring,not just gunners.
Ah ha! I think I follow you now.

So when you said "just because rangers arent as flashy and interesting as techers and fighters doesnt mean shit."

What you really meant to say was:

"just because rangers aren't as flashy and interesting as techers and fighters in certain situations, the game becomes boring not just gunners, and that doesn't mean shit."


Gotcha.



don't expect a lot out of tactical classes like fortegunner. if you know how to accelerate the class to the fullest of its potential. it isn't that hard,just a little patience and knowing how to play an RPG. you're right in saying they arent flashy,but they are very interesting. all it takes is a little thought.
I've played this game since day 1, like I'm sure many of us have, and lets set the hyperbole aside a moment and be honest. This game isn't something that requires an attendance at West Point. There is no super secret elite PSU Green Barret gunner squad who have mastered the art of tactical ranger warfare. In fact this game is really pretty simple, and foretegunners aren't an exception. Oh sure, some players are better than others and can probably shave a few minutes off a solo run or whatever. And some people will have the right gun and trap ready for the right occasion. But the reality is, you're probably just as good at playing your class as a lot of people are.

Anyway, you've made plenty of arguments as to why rangers don't suck. And I agree, they don't suck. You think they're fine the way they are, and I'm cool with that. But put me in the camp that thinks gunners could use a gameplay addition. That "Y" button really should have a function. I'd even be satisfied with something as simple as a trap placement improvement like Alizarin suggested. But what I would really like to see is something that would relieve some of the basic gunner gameplay tedium.

Lamak
Feb 16, 2008, 02:22 PM
Gib Hyper Roll.

Retniwreven
Feb 16, 2008, 02:25 PM
On 2008-02-16 11:22, Lamak wrote:
Gib Hyper Roll Morph Ball.

Arm cannons for the win!

Actually I'd like to see dual machineguns, but that's just because I like symmetry. It would likely be a bad idea.

Ashkahn
Feb 16, 2008, 02:26 PM
Dual Mechguns would be like a Sega-Sanctioned MGG. But yes, it would look cool.

Retniwreven
Feb 16, 2008, 02:30 PM
Could always make them weaker / fire slightly slower to balance it, but I don't see it happening. Just a fond memory. =D

Ken_Silver
Feb 16, 2008, 05:00 PM
Easiest way for ST to make gunner classes better and not change the style for those who like it:

Dual Mechguns/ or Gatling gun (Two handed): Matter-wise. It would be awesome to have this kind of weapon. Take down the power to just a little above a mechgun, but give it a spray effect and make it a master of Special effects (burn, freeze, etc)

X for elemental attacks, Y for Special attacks (non-elemental PA's): Why not? it makes use of two PA's at once, makes it a little easier to level up PA's (two at once) and would encourage people to buy some of the non-popular elemental PA's like Maylee shot.

That's not too much to ask. I mean giving it to them doesn't break the game. Plus it makes wielding guns more fun for everyone who uses ranged weapons. Think: every class at least has access to some sort of ranged weapon (right?) If this was implemented, everyone would benefit. Then Sonic Team could jack up the difficulty so that people who claim it is all too easy can go into harder bosses even more prepared.

In my book, it's a win-win situation.

Edit: x = down arrow and y = right arrow. I'm on the PC, so saying this means a lot to me. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ken_Silver on 2008-02-16 14:01 ]</font>