What do you think about race-savvy PA's?

[DonRoyale]

What I mean is, what do you think of balancing PA's based on race? For example, a PA can have 150% for a human, 135% for a CAST, 120% for a beast, and 175% for a newman.

This isn't just skills' ATP modifier either. It can work for ATA modifiers (for beasts), TP modifiers (for beasts and CASTs), and SE levels as well.

Discuss.

[xJakkalx]

I would think it would cause more pain than elation, if only because of the discrimination between races.

It's alright that there are a few weapons that can only be used by certain races, but altering the stats of PAs based on race would cause quite a clangor.

There's my two cents, anyway.

[pikachief]

if u did that, then techers would only be newmans and gunners would only be casts, and so on

[ljkkjlcm9]

uhm, that'd defeat the entire purpose of the races. I mean the differences would be so that they would hit the same. But that would completely destroy the difference between them. You want to hit hard, you go beast. You want to never miss anything, you go CAST. You want to be good with techs, you go newman. You want to be balanced, go human. Doing something like that, would just be dumb

THE JACKEL

[Gunslinger-08]

On 2008-02-23 12:31, pikachief wrote:
if u did that, then techers would only be newmans and gunners would only be casts, and so on

[xXInvidiaXx]

Racism would be at It's worse if that was implemented.

[Dragwind]

Ah that would cause too many imbalance issues and such.

[daniel_drago]

no. simply put. Although so mething that has crossed my mind after reading this is, what if races got a boost in weaons developed by them

newmans are better with yohmie, beast tenora, cast GRM..... human kabura....actually after writing it down i dono if its even worth considering

would make it slightly more intresting i think ....

[Zorafim]

On 2008-02-23 12:33, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
uhm, that'd defeat the entire purpose of the races.



This was never good to begin with. It irks me to no end that one race can not only clearly play a class better than another, but they're meant to play that class better than another race. I wish there was some balance in the classes, so that all races can add something different to the class instead of just being a worse version of another race doing the class.

For instance, I'd think that a cast techer should have much more survivability and phisical strength to compinsate for the huge lack of TP they have compared to newmans. And that newman fighters gain a noticably larger amount of agility compared to beast fighters to compinsate for their lower survivability and power.

Yeah, this has always irked me, especially since stats are they only thing you can't change about a character.

[Weeaboolits]

Newmans get that absurdly high MST, even as a level 13 fortefighter, my DFP never exceeded my MST.

[DonRoyale]

...

The point was to make things like melee newmans, beast gunners, and CAST techers better. It's not to enforce the "usefulness" of CAST fF's. In fact, it's meant to balance it so every race/class combo is at least viable.

[Mikura]

On 2008-02-23 14:43, DonRoyale wrote:
...

The point was to make things like melee newmans, beast gunners, and CAST techers better. It's not to enforce the "usefulness" of CAST fF's. In fact, it's meant to balance it so every race/class combo is at least viable.



Then what would be the point of playing different races if they all performed about the same?

[Zorafim]

I wonder about that myself. And yet, they all play the same exact way.

[Tita]

.....

do some of you folks realize that you've stated two opposing arguments in two separate posts for the same topic?

[rogue_robot]

Personally, I think ST really screwed up with the race/class combos in this game. This system, as opposed to PSO's, was supposed to permit people to play as "non-stereotypical" race/class combos. It does not, however, allow you to have non-stereotypical stats needed to go with that race/class combo (Newman fighters who trade some TP to patch up their low ATP, CAST techers who trade some ATP to patch up their low TP, Beast gunners who trade some ATP to patch up their low ATA, and Beast techers who trade some HP to patch up their low TP), so you just end up sucking at everything.

Really, without the potential for non-stereotypical stats, ST probably would have been better off just sticking with PSO's 12 race/gender/class combinations.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Well, to quote some Wikipedia parody site: "If your elf isn't a wizard, he/she is a f**, if a robot isn't an archer, he/she is a f**, if a furry doesn't go knight, he/she is a f'ing furry f**."

Yeah, I agree with rogue robot, Sega tried to impose on us these race/class combos thing, and it kind of ruined things. In PSO, HUcast wasn't flat out superior to HUnewearl, they were simply different. I'd have loved it to have been this way in PSU too, but meh, what can you do?

[Nai_Calus]

Yeah, HUnewearl's low ATP was balanced out by her ability to *use fucking techs*. PSU's class/race system has no versatility, though, and a newman fighter's TP is entirely fucking wasted, with no way to compensate for their racial shortcomings.

[Starrz]

On 2008-02-23 12:33, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
You want to never miss anything, you go CAST.CASTs miss plenty, kthx.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2008-02-24 02:34, Ian-KunX wrote:
Yeah, HUnewearl's low ATP was balanced out by her ability to *use fucking techs*. PSU's class/race system has no versatility, though, and a newman fighter's TP is entirely fucking wasted, with no way to compensate for their racial shortcomings.



Yeah, in PSO, Techs were a Human and Newman specialty, but now, its a Force exclusive ability. CASTs and Beasts do suffer far worse from their TP than Newmans do from ATP, but less often.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2008-02-24 08:18 ]</font>

[pikachief]

On 2008-02-24 03:09, Starrz wrote:

On 2008-02-23 12:33, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
You want to never miss anything, you go CAST.CASTs miss plenty, kthx.



I started yelling at my Phantom cuz it missed 7 times in a row once >.<

[Mewnie]

Well, maybe instead of constantly raising level caps, they could instead add alternate advancement type abilities.

EXP can be divvied up, via a setting (25%, 50%, 75% or 100%) and converted to points, which you could use to
purchase these abiities, like +2% ATP per rank and so on.

[Mewnie]

Also: to be silly..

Female only PA: Bogga Bazongas!

[Retniwreven]

On 2008-02-24 10:58, Mewnie wrote:
Also: to be silly..

Female only PA: Bogga Bazongas!
I'm pretty sure you've used it on me.

...It was fun. XD

Anyways, as for the race-specific PA thing, I honestly think it's a terrible idea. Maybe PAs that are specific to a race, like something you'd have to be a CAST to do (detatchable limbs?) or similar for others, but not an effect on ALL skills.

[Jife_Jifremok]

The PSU race/class/gender thing seems like a much simpler way to have the variety of race/class/gender combinations. In PSO, didn't you have to wait for an expansion just to play as a human female ranger or certain other combinations? (I forget how many of those "classes" there were...) But yeah, the PSU thing COULD have been better if they didn't mess up the stats and enforce the archetypes that Shiroryuu mentioned.

About race-specific PA stuff, I thought this was gonna be about PAs (or PA modifications) that could only be used by certain races, like..oh I dunno, beasts getting to chew on and maul enemies or casts shooting surface-to-air missiles from their kneecaps or something. Just having different numbers to make the imbalances worse? Fail.

[Kylie]

ST's having problems balancing what they got; let's not make it harder. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Alizarin]

On 2008-02-24 11:22, Kylie wrote:
ST's having problems balancing what they got; let's not make it harder. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif



Agreed. Personally I like being able to play as any race with any class and switch between them. Right now though there's a lot of issues with the classes in themselves that would need some attention.

[Nai_Calus]

Jife: PSO originally had nine classes on the Dreamcast version, the Gamecube version increased that to twelve. DC had male human hunter, female newman hunter, male android hunter, male human ranger, male android ranger, female android ranger, female human force, male newman force, female newman force. GC added female android hunter, female human ranger and male human hunter.

Note that androids could not use techniques, so android forces were not missing. Also, supposedly Newmans didn't like heavy firearms, so there were no newman rangers. (Hell, that we know of there aren't even designs for newman rangers.)

Two classes that there was a basis for were 'missing', female human hunter and male newman hunter, indeed, there were designs for both done, but they were never implemented.

Mind you, it was frequently argued that, even were they to decide to add them, there wasn't really anything for them to *do*, as at best they would be shades of grey between the existing two fleshsack hunters. By the example of RAmarl and FOmarl, a HUmarl would have been extremely similar to a HUnewearl in both stats and execution. It's harder to postulate on HUnewm since the only male newman in the game was FOnewm, but he had lower TP and higher ATP than FOnewearl, so we can postulate him being somewhat closer to the HUmar. Potentially with higher support techs, but there you hit the problem of balance. If HUnewm is too wimpy or too close to HUnewearl and HUmarl, there's no point to him. If he's too powerful there's no reason to use other hunters except for looks.

So, nothing to do with them, they didn't exist.

PSO pretty much had a class that covered anything you wanted to do, the problem was you were limited to the race/sex that that class happened to be.

PSU lets you be any race/sex per class, but some classes don't exist(Nothing in PSO approximates a FOmar, for example. Wartecher's support is pathetic and they're too beefy; AT has too limited a weapon selection). Furthermore, while you *can* be a male newman hunter-type now, there's no advantage to it and some serious disadvantages. Same with an android force. You'll live longer, but...

Frankly I'd rather be forced to be, say, a male android ranger that looks like a walking tank, or a male human force with long hair and a dress, and have exactly the class role I want and stats and weapon usage that makes it worthwhile.

I won't get into PSO's ability to boost certain stats early that PSU lacks.

[amtalx]

I think favoring a certain race would be a mistake. It would make the combat system more complicated than it needs to be, and would frustrate certain races.

[Feign]

On 2008-02-25 11:49, amtalx wrote:
...and would infuriate every race.


Fixed for truth.

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-02-23 21:54, rogue_robot wrote:
Personally, I think ST really screwed up with the race/class combos in this game. This system, as opposed to PSO's, was supposed to permit people to play as "non-stereotypical" race/class combos. It does not, however, allow you to have non-stereotypical stats needed to go with that race/class combo

I think players really screw up with race/class combos in this game. PSO's system let you pick which connect-the-dots character you wanted and even then people could screw it all up with retarded things like not using hit% / charge vulcans regardless of job or rare equipment, or casting attack techniques not favored by their force type.

I think it's inexcusable to make some game with such a crap character system that people who go against the grain on character choices don't have to give a minute's goddamned thought to min/maxing the combo they plan on using. Why have stats or game mechanics at all....

How is this class supposed to work, in terms of stats and equipment?
What racial modifiers could I emphasize to make it work out differently?
Might certain equipment or gameplay choices make me useful to the team, if not competitive with stereotypical setups?

Answer: HELL NO!

Everyone knows it's far more satisfying to close your eyes and take it in the mouth, then whine endlessly for pity on forums as revenge against everyone in-game whose damage output makes you feel like a tool.

EDIT: oh yeah, the topic...

Races and equipment have overall stat modifiers, when Sega works with those they can increase or decrease the differences between strong and weak races in any given stat. I'd prefer the PA's were left out of it, and I'd feel like a suck getting railroaded through my character build with race-specific skill choices. "here's a spell for CAST techers" vs figuring out how to get the most out of your CAST techer relative to other casters.

However - I think ST could do class-bending stuff like allowing Humans and Newmans to use Crea melee weps regardless of job. That would be a neat special ability and change a few classes pretty significantly for them.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-02-25 13:44 ]</font>

[chibiLegolas]

I only see this working as a hidden bonus to specific weapons when you associate the appropriate PA to it. The armor + weapon sets doesn't seem to work that well anymore, so maybe creating weapons + PA + race sets would give a more range of things for us to play with. And yes, I'm thinking C and B weapons as well.

And PA bonuses doesn't HAVE to be ATP bonuses all the time. The set could be PP bonuses, or ATA bonuses. Hell, crit bonuses would be fun on C or B weapons too. (if they ever give crits to RA/FO types).