Online: PS2/PC/360 Curiosity concerning imbalances.

[Kaleb]

Mmkay. This isn't a topic for flaming and immaturity, but god knows it'll happen any way as this is a forum. >.>

Any how. PT, GT, And WT. Currently the weakest classes in game, DESPITE them being much fun to play. Now, GT will be seeing a serious upgrade(when ever it happens) but that leaves PT, and WT(latter more than the former) in the dust.

This is a bit... disconcerting as it appears PSU is gradually turning into the next WoW. -.-; At least as far as balancing of the class-base goes. I'm quite happy to see GT finally get some serious attention from ST--but i'm uspet to see WT and PT ignored once again.

I played GT from 1-10(type level), and enjoyed it for the most part. I've also toyed with WT and PT quite a bit.

Bare in mind I have a bias(as all people do)--I am a support player of a very specific breed. I follow my melee into the fray, and keep them alive(this being why I play AT, rather than WT/GT/FT) by tipping enemies over, keeping their health bar full, and their status normal / buffed.

The actual "Techer" part of GT has been ignored save by two players I play with, whom I will now reefer to as "Bob and Sue".

Well, Bob and Sue make use of GT. They use every aspect of the class. They're good support in a pinch, as they know when they need to take over for the main healer, and they do it well despite the inherent weaknesses of the class.

GT though.. is highly ineffective when it comes to TECHNIC casting. So, the update actually makes me glad. Srank wands and TP boost? Good on 'em. Now maybe Gun Techers will actually do teching like ST initially intended(but clearly failed at conveying).

Now, WT have considerably better selection of gear(as least as far as casting goes) but over all they are lacking. WT is easily outperformed in melee by AT, despite AT having a SKILL cap 10 levels lower. Easily out-done in support by both AT and GT, and in light of the upcoming upgrades for GT.. will be easily outperformed in combat.

Why is this? Simple. AT melee attack speed, and PA execution speed is vastly superior to that of WT. Faster damage means more damage. Then we take into account that AT buffs have access to a significantly higher bonus than WT buffs. Now we add in WTs rather low ATP and ACC in and.. hah. Well, you see my point.

Let us consider GT versus Wt now. Wt thrives in melee, with a blend of TECHNIC casting and SKILL usage. Wt are very prone to getting smacked around, GT.. not so much when played by a skilled player.

Their weapon selection allows them to fight at a distance, with an enhancement to their TP score and access to srank wands.. GT will have another skill-set that allows them to fight at length--especially given light of their offensive TECHNIC cap being raised to 30.

Imo, WT needs to see a 15% increase in ATP / ACC, be given Srank T-Mags, and Srank Twin-Sabers. This would eliminate their inferiority to GT after the update occurs, their present inferiority to AT, and oddly put them on a level where a hybrid class should be. A hybrid should never outperform either parent class, but should ALWAYS be a reliable "runner-up" as it were.

PT.. oi. I can not stress this enough: PT is INCREDIBLE, but is in desperate need of some revamping. A minor increase in HP / ATP / ACC would do them wonders. Any one that says defense is slow in the head. PT are NOT front line melee. Yes, they are capable of it, no they are not built for it.

I adore melee as a PT. :3 I'll be the first to want a serious increase in their SKILL cap, etc.. but frankly? I'd rather see ST play to the class' strengths. They're survivalists. PT is meant to be a class that binds trouble-some enemies, and assists on damage with simpler enemies from afar, or up close if it fits your play-style.

God knows few, if any, will agree with me.. but I'm curious to see if there are any sharp minds on this forum. Post if you've got suggestions / concerns / input on this matter.

Any one that agrees with me, feel free to post and explain why. Any one that disagrees with me, feel free to post and explain why. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Please, no flaming. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Don't make me break out the hose. >.>

[UnderscoreX]

Bob sounds like a jerk.

[JAFO22000]

WT is easily outperformed in melee by AT

I stopped reading after this.

[DEM_CIG]

On 2008-02-28 08:49, Kaleb wrote:
Mmkay. This isn't a topic for flaming and immaturity, but god knows it'll happen any way as this is a forum. >.>

Any how. PT, GT, And WT. Currently the weakest classes in game, DESPITE them being much fun to play.


I stopped reading after this... How are PT's weak, they get the best traps and they have a higher amount of Hp than Fig.. O and they use all s-ranks... PT FTW...

[unicorn]

PT and WT are FINE.

Did you look at WT's weapon selection? You must not be using your Majarra, Hikai, Buten, or Rensan/Renzan. AT definately does not outpower WT. WT is the weakest melee-class, but its a friggin' tank. WT DOES NOT DIE WHATSOEVER. I do think WT does need a higher ATA mod, and maybe a higher ATP/TP mod.

PT is near broken. Thank god ST hesitated to give PT 40/40/0/0 like they intended for AoI (PT has 30/40/0/0). If PT had more ATA, then there would be no reason to be FF or FG.

GT on the otherhand seems to be ST's blacksheep class. It gives nothing but problems. Its hard to make GT a decent-damage class because it specializes in Bullets and Teching, both which are weak forms of damage. Not only that, but GT has low modifiers. I can see alot of their techs outdamaging their bullets (Diga, Foie, Nosdiga, Gidiga, Dambarta). As of right now, ST seems really unsure on what they want for Guntecher. But even with S-rank wands, Guntecher is still probably going to be weak overall.

[Zarbolord]

Well all I have to say is.. everyone has their strong and weak points, if a player doesn't know how to play a class, too bad for him. I mean, they're the ones with the loss. I can't play WT, and I know it, tried a few times and always ended in an unfascionable fail. So I don't play as WT. Those who don't realise that they suck, or are stupid enough to play a class as another class (e.g. I've seen some WTs play as if they were fTs or ATs play as fTs... even saw an AT without ANY support techs at all, and he claimed that his character was only AT, so meh >_>) just don't get it, and won't. In the end its all up to the player and how he plays. A class is weak when the player is weak.

[Andy1423]

As far as class balence is concered, look towards the future. Not to far from now, we'll be getting MASTER CLASSES- The Essentail basics.... RANGER---FORCE---HUNTER---MIXED (ACRO). I'm almost certain that these classes will become the ultimate balance. Until then, think of the expert classes as pre reqs, and traing for the later...

[Andy1423]

How are PT's weak, they get the best traps and they have a higher amount of Hp than Fig.. O and they use all s-ranks... PT FTW...

PLUS don't forget that now the sword and laser cannon are getting significant updates...making the PT arsenal even more versitile

[SolomonGrundy]

giving GTs S ranks rods does not really add to thier damage output (a well ground serdote outperforms most S ranks wands anyway), giving them a TP boost is nice, and level 30 attack techs is nice - but again, this is not really what GT is all about (IMO).

What they should have given GTs is the whip.
What they should give WTs is level 30 buffs
What they should give PTs is the ability to wear ranger armor (stormline, ganna line)

[Sekani]

GT sucks because they can't use attack techs effectively, WT sucks because they can't spam weak PAs at lightning speed, and PT sucks because you say so?

Break out the fucking hose man.

[DEM_CIG]

On 2008-02-28 09:16, Andy1423 wrote:

How are PT's weak, they get the best traps and they have a higher amount of Hp than Fig.. O and they use all s-ranks... PT FTW...

PLUS don't forget that now the sword and laser cannon are getting significant updates...making the PT arsenal even more versitile


True... PT's are the most versitile class, there not one of the worst classes there actually one of the best...

[Rayokarna]

I've been saving this since I first heard it a while ago.

Protranser > Jesus > Every other class

[Kion]

I wrote a really long response, but i found i could simply what i wanted to express in one sentence:
[spoiler-box]
To the OP: have you been playing the game!!!?[/spoiler-box]

Edit: but here's what i wrote on GT:
[spoiler-box]
GT does quite a bit of damage; my crossbow generally hits for 340 and about 400 when buffed. multiplied by three for each shot and with the rate of fire the gun had, it adds up to alot of damage fast. same with every weapon GT has. we don't have "ZOMG BIB NUMBERZ", but do a significant amount of damge from a safe distance and have the ability for class support as well. S rank wands and level 30 techs means that we'll be able to utilize gunteching to its full potential of having weapon combinations like crossbow plus wand and madoog plus wand. it's a well balanced and class and more over it's a support class. GT doesn't need to be doing the most damage in a party and shouldn't be doing the most damage in a party as its roll it to heal and apply status effects. soloing isn't a problem either with out evasion and ability to heal. We don't stand out in a party, but i've never felt like ST's blacksheep.
[/spoiler-box]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kion on 2008-02-28 09:31 ]</font>

[Kaleb]

On 2008-02-28 09:05, super_luu wrote:
PT and WT are FINE.

Did you look at WT's weapon selection? You must not be using your Majarra, Hikai, Buten, or Rensan/Renzan. AT definately does not outpower WT. WT is the weakest melee-class, but its a friggin' tank. WT DOES NOT DIE WHATSOEVER. I do think WT does need a higher ATA mod, and maybe a higher ATP/TP mod.

PT is near broken. Thank god ST hesitated to give PT 40/40/0/0 like they intended for AoI (PT has 30/40/0/0). If PT had more ATA, then there would be no reason to be FF or FG.

GT on the otherhand seems to be ST's blacksheep class. It gives nothing but problems. Its hard to make GT a decent-damage class because it specializes in Bullets and Teching, both which are weak forms of damage. Not only that, but GT has low modifiers. I can see alot of their techs outdamaging their bullets (Diga, Foie, Nosdiga, Gidiga, Dambarta). As of right now, ST seems really unsure on what they want for Guntecher. But even with S-rank wands, Guntecher is still probably going to be weak overall.



I agree to some extent, but when ever I compared my AT/WT for damage.. my AT was always doing better. :/ Perhaps my play style simply limits WT too much? Not sure.

As for PT, hrm, fair enough. No point to FG maybe, but FF will always be betetr for damage. FG is the one forte I haven't attempted. Are they really that weak in comparison to PT? I'll have to go grind it up, and see for myself. O.o;

[Akaimizu]

I'm not sure Whip will work out for GTs, since they do seem quite confident on keeping a level 10 limitation on Melee for them. Sure, it gives the GTs another ability to hit a group, but not exactly something they couldn't do better with a tech or a Laser Cannon. If only because the first combo of a whip pretty much doesn't topple the damage they already can do with their levelled bullets nor the SE.

One thing I would definitely agree on, is that they do seem a bit like Black sheep in the regards of not being sure what they want to do with GTs. The paradigm shifts of focus seem to want to change with each major update. It's like *Hmm. we're not so sure about this GT balance. Uhhh.. Let's do this.* And then the GTs have to relearn a whole different pattern for their character, to have good tools. (With the exception of a couple of mainstays: elements for Crossbows/Twin Handguns)

Outside of that, they haven't been too hard on GTs. Just that they have no *instant satisfaction* option. They need to take their good time to get serious bullet/tech levels to show their strength. So I consider them, a patient class. My choice of words for them. The paradigm shifts are more annoying because when you change focus, you know you have some 50-80+ hours of work to work up each elemental of bullet or so that you suddenly should be focusing on now. Whatever your change, be prepared for a lot of work.

To a certain degree, it almost feels like I'm raising a bunch of different classes in just one class. Switching some focus each time a new alteration comes. And I thought I would've been raising 3 or 4 characters by now. I guess that was the thinking back near the beginning. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 09:39 ]</font>

[Kaleb]

On 2008-02-28 09:22, Sekani wrote:
GT sucks because they can't use attack techs effectively, WT sucks because they can't spam weak PAs at lightning speed, and PT sucks because you say so?

Break out the fucking hose man.



Never said they suck. :3 Weaker in comaprison to the other classes I've played. Only one I haven't tried is FG. ..but I see your point. I'll watch how I word things more closely in the future. O.o;

[DarkEliteRico]

On 2008-02-28 09:22, Sekani wrote:
GT sucks because they can't use attack techs effectively, WT sucks because they can't spam weak PAs at lightning speed, and PT sucks because you say so?

Break out the fucking hose man.

WRONG, GT is fine as it is we are a support based class adept at spreading SE's and healing/buffing when needed. WT would be better with lvl 30 support so they can solo easier, honestly the only one i think needs to be upgraded a bit more is PT with just an ATP mod and the ability to use ranger based armors.

[DEM_CIG]

Thats the only thing i would change about PT, is the ablitiy to use armors that are only for rangers, suck as stormline.

[Akaimizu]

PTs are quite strong as they are. The EX traps really put them over the top. They actually have facilities to rise stronger than someone playing GT in faster time. Mainly because they have strong arts and traps that require a lot less levelling time. They have quite decent end-stats, too. Even with the current level 15 limitation.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 09:47 ]</font>

[ThePendragon]

I noticed one thing, everyone here has plenty of defence for PT, but what about WT? I find myself as a WT doing very low damage. 4-5k total in all my attacks with good buffs and S-Rank Grinded weapons. I see other classes doing double that easily. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[DEM_CIG]

On 2008-02-28 09:46, Akaimizu wrote:
PTs are quite strong as they are. The EX traps really put them over the top. They actually have facilities to rise stronger than someone playing GT in faster time. Mainly because they have strong arts and traps that require a lot less levelling time. They have quite decent end-stats, too. Even with the current level 15 limitation.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 09:47 ]</font>

Agreed

[Akaimizu]

That's not weak at all. I have yet to do anywhere near that much damage in any combination of attack, with any weapon, or spread.

However, I will likely reach that number with a fully topped off Laser Cannon, level 30 buffs and about 6+ enemies caught in the blast. That is, with the current way things are.

As of right now, my best damage ever is done with a Laser Cannon. So it's become a regular mainstay for me when I'm not busy doing other things or using weapons better suited for a specific situation.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 10:08 ]</font>

[amtalx]

4-5k total over how long? Don't get stuck in the LOLBIGNUMBARS trap. Just because somebody drops a fat number doesn't mean you can't outdamage them by dropping 5 of a smaller number.

[BlakLanner]

As a primary WT, I felt I had to chime in. While I do not put up insane damage numbers, even with Renzan and GBreak, with the current environment of being severely over leveled for the missions we fight, it is more than sufficient. Also, our defense is outstanding. In a nutshell, if it isn't Megid, it can't kill me. A well played WT can withstand more punishment than any other class. Aside from insta-kill related effects, we just do NOT die.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BlakLanner on 2008-02-28 10:18 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

For me, unless it takes somebody like 5 seconds to do another 4-5k total after their last 4-5K total, I'd think they're pretty darn strong. That is, whatever it takes to shoot about 4 or 5 crossbow shots. And I also agree about most monsters being weak now.

Speed runs are a different case, but that's a totally different paradigm.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 10:21 ]</font>

[amtalx]

With the new Laser Cannon boost, 3 targets is going to be 4k+ http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Akaimizu]

With fully levelled elementals. I'll have to see how long it takes me to get there. Right now, I can hit near 500 a mob with laser cannon. I've seen me doing a 6 mob zap doing somewhere between 2400-2800 combined damage.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 10:23 ]</font>

[Yuneiko]

Forgive the WoW term.

Wartechers = Paladin, TANK TANK TANK, HEAL HEAL HEAL, DPS?

Edit: In b4 WoWbash/spam/etc.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Yuneiko on 2008-02-28 10:25 ]</font>

[Danger_Girl]

Wartecher's damage output isn't that bad. My biggest problem is what we bring to groups. Our support is obviously not so great, and if there's another techer doing their job, our buffs are null. The debuffs aren't worth the palette space, but in fairness that generally goes for all levels of support. The potency of our Giresta/resta is fine, so we do offer that.

It's true that wartechers have a great deal of survivability, but lets be honest...what class doesn't? I've got a stack of scape dolls in my inventory regardless if I'm a FTer, or a WTer. True that FTers will die more often, but so what? whether you're playing solo or in a group, survivability is a non-issue in this game. No one creating a team will say grab that wartecher, he's got a lot of defense.

Anyway, put me in the camp of long time wartechers that think the class can use a wee bit of tweaking. We're not as bad as a lot of people tend to think we are, but we could use some minor enhancements.

[Yusaku_Kudou]

Hmm, Protranser used to be fairly weak, but it is not so at all anymore. It's not as strong as Fortefighter or Fortegunner, but it does put out decent numbers. Also, two Freeze Trap EXes basically spells death for an entire group of mobs.

I'd love to see Sonic Team do something whacky like Square Enix in FFXI with newman-only fighter weapons, beast-only guns, and CAST-only wands. Although people aren't as edgy anymore these days if you see a race being a certain class.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Yusaku_Kudou on 2008-02-28 10:43 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

" No one creating a team will say grab that wartecher, he's got a lot of defense. "

I'd be the first one in the team to say this line. Along with having those fighter weapons on your behalf. That and you also place possible healing in locations that other healers can't cover for.

A great party, thanks to knockdown, has multiple coverage on that front. I can't count the times I lost the ability to do anything for a few to several seconds based on 1 single knockdown during the chaos. That combined with danger areas I can't cross due to lack of survivability to cross it.

To a class relagated as primarily support, with very little all-around defense, a knockdown is often as bad as a death in party-tactics.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 10:44 ]</font>

[Yuneiko]

I agree, Wartechers are still a melee class, so they (assumedly) still can out DPS guns and techs, thanks to majarra. I used to be a wartecher, only got it to 11. I also agree the class can use some tweaking as well, I loved my wartecher time, just that acrofighter gave me so much more from what I used on my wartecher (one handed weapons for the most part).

[Danger_Girl]

On 2008-02-28 10:40, Akaimizu wrote:
" No one creating a team will say grab that wartecher, he's got a lot of defense. "

I'd be the first one in the team to say this line. Along with having those fighter weapons on your behalf. That and you also place possible healing in locations that other healers can't cover for.

A great party, thanks to knockdown, has multiple coverage on that front. I can't count the times I lost the ability to do anything for a few to several seconds based on 1 single knockdown during the chaos. That combined with danger areas I can't cross due to lack of survivability to cross it.

To a class relagated as primarily support, with very little all-around defense, a knockdown is often as bad as a death in party-tactics.



Lets keep it real. If the healer is unable to get to the person needing a heal, that person uses a trimate.

When I do team runs, it's never a question of, "is this team strong enough to survive this run?" It is a question of, "how fast can we do this run?"

With the PSU's current balance, team runs are in essence like driving a bulldozer through a herd of dairy cows.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Danger_Girl on 2008-02-28 12:24 ]</font>

[Reipard]

As a Guntecher I've always felt like a valuable addition to a team. I keep them alive, buffed and ensure the enemies have a healthy helping of Zalure lv.4 from my Twin Mayalee before turning my rifle on them.

Sure, I'm not great at soloing; that's what I feel is my biggest weakness and limitation. But if I wanted to solo, I would have picked Fortefighter.

[amtalx]

On 2008-02-28 10:21, Akaimizu wrote:
With fully levelled elementals. I'll have to see how long it takes me to get there. Right now, I can hit near 500 a mob with laser cannon. I've seen me doing a 6 mob zap doing somewhere between 2400-2800 combined damage.



http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif What level bullets are those?

With Lvl ~35 (can't remember) Burning Prism I can hit for ~1100 with Lvl 21+ Shifta. With the additional 15% for capping it at 40 along with the 22% element boost, I don't think 1500 is out of the question. 3 targets would give me 4500 which is more than I can do with my Shotgun AND I get SE3. Plus, Laser Cannons have a bit of a firing rate advantage over Shotguns and the safety of range. 6 targets? OVER 9000.

[Akaimizu]

Right now, my Lasers Bullets are at level 17. They still have some ways to go.
Don't forget I'm not a fortegunner nor have I scored something like an HPC or a SPS.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 11:39 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

On 2008-02-28 10:59, Danger_Girl wrote:

Lets keep it real. If the healer is unable to get to the person needing a heal, that person uses a trimate.

When I do team runs, it's never a question of, "is this team strong enough to survive this run?" It is a question of, "how fast can we do this run?"

With the PSU's current balance, team runs are in essence like driving a bulldozer through a heard of dairy cows.



Well I'm not just there for the healing. Me being knocked down also means I'm not disabling mobs with status effects meant to lock away their attacks, or other methods of support. Trimates are cool and all, but let's be real. This isn't PSO. There's many more cases in which an item can't be used. If they died, it doesn't mean they forgot to use a Trimate or recovery item like in PSO (where if you were frozen, stopped, locked in a combo, any position, you could still use an item).

The heals tend to save those from bad combos that don't allow item use inbetween.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 11:46 ]</font>

[Sekani]

I blame the current state of easy mode for the perceived shortcomings of many of these classes. Enemies don't live long enough or do enough damage for any of their secondary abilities to become useful to DPS whores. That being said...

Guntecher is the best overall support class in the game. If you can't figure out how that is, switch classes.

Wartecher can use both ranged and TECHNIC attacks to supplement their melee offense, and they do it better than those pansy Acrotechers. If you can't figure out how to use that to your advantage, switch classes.

I've never played Protranser so I can't brag about how good it actually is, but they seem to have enough supporters in this thread.

[RegulusHikari]

My response to this is simple:

Any class that has access to ranged or magic support is not SUPPOSED to be as powerful or durable as a Fortefighter. Not every class in the game is designed to be able to solo.

Don't pick a class that EXCELLS in support (GT) and then complain because the person who excells in melee or range alone can outdamage you.

It's the price you pay for being a hybrid. Deal with it.

[DEM_CIG]

Protranser to me is the best over all class, i dont mind not being albe to out damage a FF or FG... but can a FG be a tank, or can a FF attack from a long distance? No cause all they special in is attack in one way... Versitile PT FTW !

[Xaeris]

On 2008-02-28 11:41, Akaimizu wrote:

Well I'm not just there for the healing. Me being knocked down also means I'm not disabling mobs with status effects meant to lock away their attacks, or other methods of support. Trimates are cool and all, but let's be real. This isn't PSO. There's many more cases in which an item can't be used. If they died, it doesn't mean they forgot to use a Trimate or recovery item like in PSO (where if you were frozen, stopped, locked in a combo, any position, you could still use an item).

The heals tend to save those from bad combos that don't allow item use inbetween.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 11:46 ]</font>


...Huh? Items can be used in the middle of photon arts. Hell, they can even be used when one is knocked over and lying on the ground. The only time a person is locked out of item use is when they're frozen or stunned and hey, we have Resist units for those.

If we're being real, then yes, the only reason you bring someone along for their support ability is if you enjoy their company. They're just leeching otherwise in the game's current EZ mode state.

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-02-28 11:26, amtalx wrote:

On 2008-02-28 10:21, Akaimizu wrote:
With fully levelled elementals. I'll have to see how long it takes me to get there. Right now, I can hit near 500 a mob with laser cannon. I've seen me doing a 6 mob zap doing somewhere between 2400-2800 combined damage.



http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif What level bullets are those?

With Lvl ~35 (can't remember) Burning Prism I can hit for ~1100 with Lvl 21+ Shifta.

lv37 Phantasm Prism, 120/11 m cast GT, Thunder Cannon+5, and Bullet Save does ~600 damage with a 120/11 m cast GT... I think that's un-buffed.

With my Protranser ATP, Meteor Cannon+2, and Solid/Knight I get ~800 unbuffed. It's good damage, but could be vastly better almost for free.

I'd love to hear that Phantasm (and Mayalee for rifle) pick up a bunch of base ATP so they don't totally suck to use compared to normal skills now that leveling isn't as big a deal.

[SolomonGrundy]

WTs may not do as much melee damage as fF, but what happend when fF runs into melee resistant enemies? the WT switches to techs or ranged (bow/card), and the fF still has to use melee. At level 80, my female newman was doing more ranged damage to a jarba than my level 100 fF (using a pistol). This is back when folks spammed labs for money.

Now I don't even bother with runs that have jarba's with a fF - there are easier ways to make money. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Akaimizu]

On 2008-02-28 11:57, Xaeris wrote:
, then yes, the only reason you bring someone along for their support ability is if you enjoy their company. They're just leeching otherwise in the game's current EZ mode state.



True, but tell me one that can wear two Resist units at the same time, and I'll know a party that has all that covered. Well, with the exception that combos often don't allow self-heals at the same time. You get hit stun, which also works against item usage. Thus is what I was talking about. Try it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 12:13 ]</font>

[ThEoRy]

How can people claim any one class is weak is beyond me. They all have their usefulness. Just because one class doesn't do hizuge numbrz does not make it weak.

Let's look at the specific classes the OP points to as being weak. Whats the first thing you see? What's that... they're all HYBRID classes?! Hybrids were never meant to be the lol damage dealers in any game for that matter.

And PT is far beyond weak. Name another class that can stunlock a whole mob of very large creatures making them easy prey for the others........ yeaaahh didn't think so.

It surprises me how many times I have to say this....
Let's not forget this is a TEAM BASED GAME.

/topic fail

[beatrixkiddo]

On 2008-02-28 09:40, DarkEliteRico wrote:

On 2008-02-28 09:22, Sekani wrote:
GT sucks because they can't use attack techs effectively, WT sucks because they can't spam weak PAs at lightning speed, and PT sucks because you say so?

Break out the fucking hose man.

WRONG, GT is fine as it is we are a support based class adept at spreading SE's and healing/buffing when needed. WT would be better with lvl 30 support so they can solo easier, honestly the only one i think needs to be upgraded a bit more is PT with just an ATP mod and the ability to use ranger based armors.



Wasn't it painfully obvious Sekani was being sarcastic?

[Xaeris]

On 2008-02-28 12:11, Akaimizu wrote:

True, but tell me one that can wear two Resist units at the same time, and I'll know a party that has all that covered. Well, with the exception that combos often don't allow self-heals at the same time. You get hit stun, which also works against item usage. Thus is what I was talking about. Try it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-02-28 12:13 ]</font>


Generally, incapcitating effects only show up one at a time. If there's a second, it's exigent only in situational frequency.

As for the second part, you'll need to clarify, for I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about. If I'm in the middle of a skill, I can open up my palette and use nearly whatever is there. I can't even count how many times I've had a Megistaride run out in the middle of an art and I scrambled to reuse another one before I lost the damage on the next hit.

[Akaimizu]

Combos from the enemies. Not combos you're doing.

[amtalx]

On 2008-02-28 11:38, Akaimizu wrote:
Right now, my Lasers Bullets are at level 17. They still have some ways to go.
Don't forget I'm not a fortegunner nor have I scored something like an HPC or a SPS.



Indeed. I forgot to mention that I use an SPS and Needle Cannon +4.

[RemiusTA]

On 2008-02-28 09:28, Kion wrote:

GT does quite a bit of damage; my crossbow generally hits for 340 and about 400 when buffed. multiplied by three for each shot and with the rate of fire the gun had, it adds up to alot of damage fast. same with every weapon GT has. we don't have "ZOMG BIB NUMBERZ", but do a significant amount of damge from a safe distance and have the ability for class support as well. S rank wands and level 30 techs means that we'll be able to utilize gunteching to its full potential of having weapon combinations like crossbow plus wand and madoog plus wand. it's a well balanced and class and more over it's a support class. GT doesn't need to be doing the most damage in a party and shouldn't be doing the most damage in a party as its roll it to heal and apply status effects. soloing isn't a problem either with out evasion and ability to heal. We don't stand out in a party, but i've never felt like ST's blacksheep.



You know the thing about GT? Yeah, it seems extremely weak because its a Bullet and Technic class -- both of which require more TIME than sheer equipment to be proficent at. Bullets and Technics are at a far higher need to be higher leveled than Skills are. However, when these skills start to reach the pinnacle, you'll start to see a turn in ability.


Which is exactly why ST is giving them lv 30 technics. The difference between a lv 20 technic and a level 21 technic is a big difference, espically since this is the level when you see the biggest range and speed changes, which causes you to do significantly more damage. (Which is exactly why giving Acrotechers lv40 technics would destroy the balance.)

Srank wands and lv30 technics i feel was fair enough to give them. This will make them generally a VERY nice ranged-based class.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RemiusTA on 2008-02-28 13:13 ]</font>

[Dragwind]

To the OP:

Just a big opinionated paragraph. Nothing in this game really defines what makes the class "lacking" or "ranked" anywhere. Its how you use it.

I don't know why I'd expect anymore from a game where a majority of the userbase still thinks this game takes place in preschool where everything must be a competition.

"ZOMG THIS CLASS CANT OUT DPS THIS ONE. IT SUCKS. I KILLED THAT MOB OF AGEETAS IN 8 seconds and it took you 11 seconds GTFO IM BETTER DEN U MY CLASS RULES UR CLASS SUX"



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dragwind on 2008-02-28 13:29 ]</font>

[redroses]

I really wonder why almost nobody plays a class because it's fun to play with it. Or because they like it.

All I have been hearing lately is:

OMG! Chikki nerf...AF is useless and shitty
OMG! GT is getting 30 support, now we can throw WT away
OMG! Whut!? AT...now FT has no more use!
OMG! My class doesnt do over 9000 damage! I hate PSU! ! ! !!

People, calm down. All the classes are pretty good how they are. And it's obvious that not all classes were made for uuber number damage. A Af will never do as much damage as a FF. AT will never do as much damage as FT. and so on.

I mean come on....why are you playing this game? For numbers and dps?
Or to be in a community, where you can happly play with your friends or random people together and just have fun with them and your class?

[thebummers]

GT = will be fine after the buffing coming soon.
PT = is pretty much fine as it is besides the fact the only one-handers they can use are the weakest sauce.
WT = would be fine if they boosted supports to what GT has and gave them a slight melee mod since this is what they should do best out of the 3 attacks (even Beast WTs get outdamaged easily by other melees). S whips would make them more desirable to play later down the road too.

[oskermayor]

I leveled WT to 15 and have to say that i actually had more fun as WT than as a FF (my main class). I didnt have a chance to use them as a WT but as a AT i have been using whips a lot and have been surprised by the damage that Vivi Danga deals. I am currently a lvl 10 AT and char lvl 120 and using a Vish Adan (dark element, not grinded) I deal roughly 350 dmg 15 times with combo 1 and about 750 10 times or more to the Dimmagolus on Desert Terror. In total, that is about 13000 in total. I could only imagine would kind of damage I could deal as a WT, and frankly I can't wait to switch back to it to find out, not only because WT is stronger than a AT but I could also use lvl 30 Vivi danga.

[Lamak]

I guess I'll say something. I've been playing Wartecher since the day Expert Classes were added. Throughout the whole time, I felt that everything was fine. After awhile I felt it the class was lacking S ranks, but ST added S rank Twin Claw and Knuckles. That was good and all, but with the new class "balances" WT is missing something once again. It's has no S rank exclusive, and it's the weakest melee class. I wouldn't mind some "good" S ranks thrown at it or level 30 support.

[Mystil]

I seriously hope all the hard working WTs out there don't take that opening post to heart and jump ship to AT.

[Alizarin]

On 2008-02-28 20:33, Mystil wrote:
I seriously hope all the hard working WTs out there don't take that opening post to heart and jump ship to AT.



Nope. Staying WT.

[Danger_Girl]

On 2008-02-28 15:55, oskermayor wrote:
I leveled WT to 15 and have to say that i actually had more fun as WT than as a FF (my main class). I didnt have a chance to use them as a WT but as a AT i have been using whips a lot and have been surprised by the damage that Vivi Danga deals. I am currently a lvl 10 AT and char lvl 120 and using a Vish Adan (dark element, not grinded) I deal roughly 350 dmg 15 times with combo 1 and about 750 10 times or more to the Dimmagolus on Desert Terror. In total, that is about 13000 in total. I could only imagine would kind of damage I could deal as a WT, and frankly I can't wait to switch back to it to find out, not only because WT is stronger than a AT but I could also use lvl 30 Vivi danga.



When I started this game, my main was a beast fortefighter. I had a newman wartecher alt who was a recreation of my PSO main. Well it didn't take long and my newman wartecher had double the playtime as my "main". Now all this time later, both of them are level 120, but my newman wartecher (my true main obviously) still has easily more than double the playtime.

Despite the difference in power between WTer and fF, I've been a fan of the melee/techer hybrid concept. The class isn't without flaws, but it will always be my favorite (pending master classes).