PDA

View Full Version : Rifles..No? Twin Handguns..



DreXxiN
Mar 9, 2008, 08:38 PM
Does anyone else feel this way? I mean, honestly I just see high level twin handies BETTER than rifles. Now I know you can argue that rifles has SE, but like that's useful anymore, and as for rifles, they have knockdown soon..woohoo!.. I still think twin handies beats them, in general. Sure they have more range, but twin handguns have quite enough of that. Discuss?

chalka
Mar 9, 2008, 08:49 PM
both have their strengths, but i still prefer rifles. maybe its because i loved using them in PSO, i love them so much in PSU as well but they are just fine. yea, as of right now twin handguns are better at DPS, but status effects are very useful, especially against larger monsters, with high defense or spell casters who keep you moving too much to set and get in a good set of rounds.

twin handguns are great, and i love them for running and gunning, but there are times when their shorter reach can make things more difficult than they need to be.


i also wouldnt scoff at knock down, it can come in handy. and arent rifles also getting an attack boost to make them somewhat stronger?

just my 2 cents.

DreXxiN
Mar 9, 2008, 08:54 PM
I was thinking the same with the useful freeze and stuff of 21 or 31 rifles, but then I just use G traps, xD. Thanks for the reply

Talise
Mar 9, 2008, 09:17 PM
um rifles for fortegunner, twins for guntecher -_- 1. FG gets S rank rifles, 2. they will probably use a different weapon besides twin handguns for other situations.

Libram
Mar 9, 2008, 11:01 PM
Rifles also have more stopping power than Twinnies, and given that they have the higher SE they can inflict the SE much more rapidly and for far fewer PP. With Burn 4 you're DPS will beat out the Twins.

amtalx
Mar 10, 2008, 07:01 AM
We'll have to see what damage is like after 41+ but it will be pretty close after the PA update. I wouldn't rule out Rifles outdamaging Twins on a fG in the future.

panzer_unit
Mar 10, 2008, 08:47 AM
laser cannon

stukasa
Mar 10, 2008, 11:37 AM
It depends on the situation. Sometimes you need the range, sometimes you need the mobility. Sometimes you need the SE4, sometimes you don't. Personally I like twin handguns more than rifles but I use both in every mission.

Hrith
Mar 10, 2008, 12:15 PM
Twin handguns are weaker than shotguns, lasers, crossbows and machineguns, so the only use they have is against bosses in first person view, and in this situation, vastly superior range gives an advantage to rifles.

After the update (in which rifle elemental bullets will gain 20% ATP and 7% element), rifle should be very close to twin handgun DPS, if not above. Add in range and twin handguns die.

Talise
Mar 10, 2008, 12:32 PM
machine guns run out of pp fast, xbows and shotguns are not as mobile, and lasers are slower so they arn't as good when there's only 3- enemies, so twin handguns are a better utility weapon, while the other weapons are more specialized. I wouldn't rule out the usefulness of twins outside of bosses.

amtalx
Mar 10, 2008, 01:15 PM
I beg to differ on a few of those points.

You are right about Machineguns running out of PP fast, but didn't think people still used those now that the MG glitch has been...addressed. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif I leveled a few Machinegun bullets to deal with enemies (back in the day when everyone was running Labs S2) I didn't want to get particularly close to (read Jarbas). But several enemy nerfs and player buffs later, I just don't care. They get a Shotgun in the back now.

As far as Xbows, if you really need the additional mobility you get from Twin Handguns, damage output is the least of your concerns.

Sure, Shotguns don't give you much mobility, and they are not the best choice in all situations. However, the differential in damage is so grossly disproportionate that something needs to give when ST hands you death ray.

A Laser Cannon fired at 3 targets still greatly out-damages Twin Handguns, with SE3 to boot.

Unless you are fighting a boss where you need range, but nothing greater than that of Twin Handguns (De Rol Le maybe?), there is always a choice with better DPS and sometimes even better SE.

Hrith
Mar 10, 2008, 02:09 PM
On 2008-03-10 10:32, Talise wrote:
machine guns run out of pp fast, xbows and shotguns are not as mobile, and lasers are slower so they arn't as good when there's only 3- enemies, so twin handguns are a better utility weapon, while the other weapons are more specialized. I wouldn't rule out the usefulness of twins outside of bosses.Learn to use shotguns, crossbows and lasers.

Machineguns may run out of PP fast, but it's not a real issue on classes which use guns as secondary weapons. like Fighgunner, so my point stands.

Akaimizu
Mar 10, 2008, 02:27 PM
I use them all. I still use my twins for the precise reasons I already gave. Then again, I've been fighting the good fight for usefulness of Twins for more than a year now. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

But they certainly don't replace what the other weapons do better. Just that it does fit well within its versatile points. Rifles have its place, and will have an even better place in the future. With certain classes they have good use, now. Other classes, not so much so. I'm still excited for what the future will bring to rifles as I'm already utilizing them as just one other weapon I use.

Then again, I'm flying through my pallette in any one mission, so I use a lot of stuff. The bad thing is, that 6 weapon slots is soo not enough. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

I spend enough time doing the old PSO thing, and having to run around with a menu up to swap out weapons, something I thought the new system was trying to eliminate.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-03-10 12:33 ]</font>

Tengoku
Mar 10, 2008, 02:28 PM
Use rifles when mobility isn't an issue. Use handguns when mobility is the priority.

Example: when you party is having issues with mobs (due to size, level, or both), use your handguns to draw the attention of a few of the mobs away from your team-mates, especially if they are ranged mobs. Your mobility (with handguns) allows you to keep yourself mostly safe (health-wise) while the decrease in threat levels to the main striking portion of your team (melee, techers) allows them to focus their damage in a more efficient manner. Less damage to the melee crew = less PP used for healing. Less PP used for healing = more PP used for nuking. Win and win.

It is, of course, situational.

Akaimizu
Mar 10, 2008, 02:36 PM
The twins also come in handy when you need to deal with close/far range tactics within a quick few seconds without having to switch a bunch of times to the more appropriate weapon each time. Continuous work with strafe ability will always outperform too much micromanagement and time spent for objects to load in hand if the time needed to switch gets too short.

As always, use them smart. They can be a decent part of your game, just not all of your game.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-03-10 12:36 ]</font>

Talise
Mar 10, 2008, 06:49 PM
To amtalx and Hrith, once again I repeat as an utility weapon, and, shotguns and xbows are better at close range, which is why they lose out in mobility, twins give you the option to shoot everywhere, which is where it's nicer to play with than shotties, xbows, and laser cannons. Once again, utility weapon, at no point did I say that it will do higher damage than the other weapons. I've also pointed out that Fg will not use this weapon, and it'd be for guntecher, where shotguns and lasers will not outdamage twins as much. I admit to your point on machineguns being better in cases of fighter classes, but for guntechers it's more for burst probably for bigger enemies, while twins will be more of the overall weapon. Keep in mind this doesn't mean I'm saying they should use only twin handguns, but that it's still a useful weapon.

Hrith
Mar 10, 2008, 07:28 PM
I still don't understand your point.

What's useful about twin handguns when nearly any weapon will kill faster?

Not getting hit? I don't get hit enough as Fortegunner to care about the few hits I do receive.
And getting hit = odds of block = Just Counter http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Machineguns have fully replaced twin handguns as my mobile mid-range gun on my Fighgunner/Guntecher.

Sekani
Mar 10, 2008, 07:31 PM
On 2008-03-10 17:28, Hrith wrote:

Machineguns have fully replaced twin handguns as my mobile mid-range gun on my Fighgunner/Guntecher.


Machineguns have crap ATA.

Talise
Mar 10, 2008, 07:44 PM
On 2008-03-10 17:28, Hrith wrote:
What's useful about twin handguns when nearly any weapon will kill faster?
Fortegunner to care about the few hits I do receive.
And getting hit = odds of block = Just Counter http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Like I said, because they're all situtational for the most part, and twins are not.
I've already stated that fortegunners should not use twin handguns.

KamiSori
Mar 10, 2008, 08:09 PM
i cry every time i see a Fortegunner with a pallete full of Bisos

Hrith
Mar 10, 2008, 09:10 PM
On 2008-03-10 17:44, Talise wrote:
Like I said, because they're all situtational for the most part, and twins are not.
I've already stated that fortegunners should not use twin handguns.Shotguns, crossbows and machineguns can only be used 95% of the time, how situational!


I may add that if the upcoming update allows rifles to match or outdamage twin handguns, they'll be useless, mobility or not. Nothing can hurt you at rifle range, so the mobility advantage would be lost.

EphekZ
Mar 10, 2008, 09:13 PM
On 2008-03-10 17:31, Sekani wrote:

On 2008-03-10 17:28, Hrith wrote:

Machineguns have fully replaced twin handguns as my mobile mid-range gun on my Fighgunner/Guntecher.


Machineguns have crap ATA.



Dude..Have you actually used a mech?
ATA doesn't matter after a certain point anyway.
If I can use a mech on my AT at pretty much anywhere, then you sure as hell can use it on any other class.

Talise
Mar 10, 2008, 09:48 PM
On 2008-03-10 19:10, Hrith wrote:
Shotguns, crossbows and machineguns can only be used 95% of the time, how situational!


I may add that if the upcoming update allows rifles to match or outdamage twin handguns, they'll be useless, mobility or not. Nothing can hurt you at rifle range, so the mobility advantage would be lost.


any weapon can be used 95% of the time, you could hit on 1 enemy with 1 part with a grenade launcher if you wanted to. it's a matter of effectivness.
And if you think about it, you're basically saying don't use this cuz this other will do more damage. In that case you'd apply that all over, like oh slicer can kill groups of enemies better, let's only use slicers for them. Dus Majarra and axe will do more damage on anything else, so let's never touch any other weapon again.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Talise on 2008-03-10 19:56 ]</font>

VectormanX
Mar 10, 2008, 11:24 PM
once the US version gets the awesome rifle update, where lv 31 bullets knockdown and 40% element, then this will get much more interesting http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

FOnewearl-Lina
Mar 11, 2008, 01:02 AM
On 2008-03-10 21:24, VectormanX wrote:
once the US version gets the awesome rifle update, where lv 31 bullets knockdown and 40% element, then this will get much more interesting http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Unfortunately even with the boost, TwinRuby+10 still outdamages Phantom+10 with the equivalent elemental bullet so if you're going for sheer dps, twins are the way to go. Rifle *does* make kagajibari seem like a big joke though.

biggabertha
Mar 11, 2008, 04:39 AM
Will a Guntecher with Twin Ruby 10/10 beat a Fortegunner with a Killer Elite 10/10 or are we sticking this argument purely for Guntechers?

Whatever happened to: "Use the weapon you like the look of more?"

Other than soloing, the male Beast Fortefighter in your team will just stroll over to mash the enemy with Just Attacks then onto the next one. I suppose you could argue you could keep up with him if you were using Twin Handguns but the firing rate slows him down by budging creatures out of the way. At least with the Rifle you can attack from a REAL safe distance and not have to hold down the L1 button.

FOnewearl-Lina
Mar 11, 2008, 05:24 AM
On 2008-03-11 02:39, biggabertha wrote:
Will a Guntecher with Twin Ruby 10/10 beat a Fortegunner with a Killer Elite 10/10 or are we sticking this argument purely for Guntechers?
Come back when you actually have a Killer Elite 10/10... By the time Elite+10 is as common as Ruby+10 is now, who knows what other weapons will be available. Plus Master should already be out by then which nullifies any Forte/Guntecher argument you're trying to make.

thunder-ray
Mar 11, 2008, 05:47 AM
Im a heavy riflle user period. I love rifles i used them alot in pso, im really looking forward to this pa update thats coming soon. Sadly to say i rarely use twin handguns even though i have no problem with them. I most of the time when im a fortegunner focus on range combat in other words using rifles. But that doesnt mean that i dont use any other wep i also use laser cannon, machineguns, twin handgun (once a blue moom) etc. As for the twin handguns i would see that as a wep better used for GT since they get the s rank for that weapon.

darkante
Mar 11, 2008, 06:39 AM
I wouldnīt say Twin Handguns is a bad weapon.
With itīs mobility you canīt expect it to be the ultimate weapon or something lol.
With steady accuracy while being mobile..i think the firepower is a good trade-off.

amtalx
Mar 11, 2008, 06:41 AM
On 2008-03-10 23:02, FOnewearl-Lina wrote:
Unfortunately even with the boost, TwinRuby+10 still outdamages Phantom+10 with the equivalent elemental bullet so if you're going for sheer dps, twins are the way to go.



Do you have any numbers? I'm curious what the difference is.

Talise
Mar 11, 2008, 07:00 AM
On 2008-03-11 02:39, biggabertha wrote:
Will a Guntecher with Twin Ruby 10/10 beat a Fortegunner with a Killer Elite 10/10 or are we sticking this argument purely for Guntechers?

Guntechers can't use Killer Elite so I dun see what we're arguing about here, except switching from GT to FG? Likewse, FG can't use Twin Ruby right? -_-

amtalx
Mar 11, 2008, 07:59 AM
Twin Ruby Bullet is a 9*. fGs should be able to use it.

darkante
Mar 11, 2008, 08:09 AM
Twin Ruby Bullet is bad news in the hand of a Fortegunner...hehe...mouhahaha! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

FOnewearl-Lina
Mar 11, 2008, 09:20 AM
On 2008-03-11 04:41, amtalx wrote:
Do you have any numbers? I'm curious what the difference is.
Here you go, megistalide in effect in both cases:
[spoiler-box]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/FoLina/PSU/1024/psu20080312_012941_017th.jpg
801 x 2
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/FoLina/PSU/1024/psu20080312_012941_017r.jpg
1152
Okay so I don't have a Snake+10 yet, it's still got more ATP than a Phantom+10[/spoiler-box]

amtalx
Mar 11, 2008, 09:43 AM
Thanks! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Impressive damage in both cases.

On a different note, anyone that gets a Spread Needle/G when MAG hits the US servers can have my soul. That thing is just too sexy.

Akaimizu
Mar 11, 2008, 12:45 PM
Very cool numbers there. I'm steadily approaching it, but it's always a smile when you can start seeing each bullet approaching 1000. Considering I have one of those Cati units on me, Twin Ruby could be the next Twin handgun to drool for.

I'll have to get many of those. I definitely would want to grind those up to 10. I wouldn't just want one. I would want to buy the company and sell it so that others may get stuff like it. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

It's wierd. I don't necessarily use them strictly for damage outside of bosses, but pics like that can definitely stroke an ego. All I can say, bosses beware when those get more distribution.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-03-11 10:46 ]</font>

Yuicihi
Mar 11, 2008, 06:03 PM
When I was playing as a Ranger, I generally had my twin pistols as my primary weapon.
It's essentially the same thing as mobility vs. range/power.

DreXxiN
Mar 12, 2008, 12:29 PM
I'm kind of confused about the whole argument of "Well if your GT use twin handies because they are s rank".

sure, they look badass, but unfortunately, Arb Biso's are pretty much better than any twin handie out right now, so fortegunners still have guntechers beat by that.

I see a lot of "well in the party when your teamates are teh pwning everything.".

I think I forgot to mention that I solo mainly unless asked for help or in the case of an event XD. Thanks for the insight though.

Hrith
Mar 12, 2008, 01:10 PM
On 2008-03-11 10:45, Akaimizu wrote:
All I can say, bosses beware when those get more distribution.Which boss are twin handguns good against?

amtalx
Mar 12, 2008, 01:30 PM
On 2008-03-12 11:10, Hrith wrote:

On 2008-03-11 10:45, Akaimizu wrote:
All I can say, bosses beware when those get more distribution.Which boss are twin handguns good against?



I don't think De Rol is ever out of Twin Handgun range while being within Rifle range when he is flying. Just a guess though. I've never actually tried using Twins on him before.

Libram
Mar 12, 2008, 01:52 PM
Depends on where you put the raft. When he's in attack range you don't need to move it as close to get some hits in, and when he's circling it's much easier to hit with a Rifle than with the Twins.

Talise
Mar 12, 2008, 10:38 PM
On 2008-03-12 10:29, DreXxiN wrote:
I'm kind of confused about the whole argument of "Well if your GT use twin handies because they are s rank".

sure, they look badass, but unfortunately, Arb Biso's are pretty much better than any twin handie out right now, so fortegunners still have guntechers beat by that.

Actually it's more like use twins because rifles are A rank, and guntechers are not meant to outdamage fortegunners anyway -_-

Akaimizu
Mar 13, 2008, 12:11 PM
Not to mention, at the moment, my Twins outdamage any rifle or bow I own, of the same class. Even my 10/10 Grinded Ulteri doesn't keep up with my Twins with nowhere near that amount of grinds. My Best rifles don't beat them for damage, and yet the range isn't that much ahead in most boss fights. I tend to stay at a still distant Twin handgun range, to peg quite a few things. The main time rifles and bows become the main safe thing to use is Magas. For De Roi le, there are certain distances that are better with the other two, however, much of the time, I can stay in Twin Handgun range of him.

Will this change with the update? Looks like it could, so I'm definitely on for more experimentation as it approaches.

But right now, except for certain De Roi Le positions, every boss is Twin reachable. However, I've never seen anything do damage like Twin Ruby may pull off, on any gun a GT can use. Not one 1 target, that is. A high grinded A Shotgun, might reach that for us. Might. Not lucky enough to land one of those, yet.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-03-13 10:19 ]</font>

biggabertha
Mar 13, 2008, 12:53 PM
Rifles (maybe Longbows to an extent) REALLY come into their own when you square up against Onmagoug/Dimmagolus. Especially Dimmagolus (why can't we fire our SHigga Destas like Laia can?!) who stays up in the air for a great deal of the fight. Running around with Twin Handguns trying to keep up with Dimmagolus is rather tiresome while a Rifle can just keep plugging away at the wings with very little movement required.

This require high levels of patience though, I'm fairly sure that Lv. 31+ Plasma Shot users are very few and far between. Grav Shot even rarer but with Twin Handguns, you get the easy way out since leveling those are so much easier than a Rifle and much easier to plink away with. Maybe it's the feeling of coolness to be firing at that rate... Nah, it's probably the damage.

Akaimizu
Mar 13, 2008, 01:12 PM
Actually, Twin Handguns are right behind rifles in the levelling rate. They both take forever to level. I put in my big time and dues to get them to where they are, today. Rifles are technically the slowest, but I don't have any other gun slower than Twin handguns.

Some say lasers are slow, but not for me, part of it is because, when I'm levelling them, I tend to run missions with easy group shots and plug away. The twins nor the rifle have methods to easily add monsters to increase the levelling rate.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-03-13 11:14 ]</font>

Hrith
Mar 13, 2008, 01:14 PM
On 2008-03-13 10:11, Akaimizu wrote:
But right now, except for certain De Rol Le positions, every boss is Twin reachable.That's not the point. You waste a lot of time running after bosses to be in handgun range, that's what makes rifles better damage-dealers against any airborne boss. De Rol Le is actually the boss where twin handguns have the biggest advantage, because the size of the raft does not allow for much "chasing" to begin with.

The biggest disadvantage is against the second part of Magas Maggahna.


However, I've never seen anything do damage like Twin Ruby may pull off, on any gun a GT can use.Aikasoki/Cubo Mamba and Shigga Bines/Shigga Bomac largely outdamage Twin Ruby Bullet.

Twin Ruby Bullet has the same ATP as Arb Boa (10 ATP is of no significance), so you can test that right now, if you want.

The picture above comes from a 130/20 Fortegunner.

Twin handguns don't fire twice as many bullets as rifles, far from it. Don't compare 801 to 1152 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif


Rifles already outperform twin handguns against airborne bosses, that's not the point. The point is if rifles will outperform twin handguns in any situation, and I fear they will.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2008-03-13 11:22 ]</font>

Akaimizu
Mar 13, 2008, 01:17 PM
And I don't think they do, for a Guntecher. And Rifles don't fire the same bullet rate of Twin handgun bullets. Far from that. I also have Cubo Mambas as well, and on me, my Twins keep up quite close to them. Very close. It's not the same.

The Mambas do outdamage them, but not by a margin that doesn't have case use for when you need a bit of Twin diversity. You pick for range, or what you got to do at any given time. Switching between weapons does take time, and nothing slows you down, more than that.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-03-13 11:30 ]</font>

Hrith
Mar 13, 2008, 01:23 PM
You "think", I know.

Akaimizu
Mar 13, 2008, 01:25 PM
Hey. I only go with the stuff I have, and everything I'm doing in the game. Ok? If my game is a lie, then just tell me and everybody that travelled with me. Being that I'm also in the group of first GTs that stayed there, perhaps I'm doing what I'm saying, right?

However, I'm very flexible as well. Tell me the exact A Class rifle and what amount of grinds I should use, and put to the test utilizing the same bullet levels. I'll test them against my grinded Arb Boas and the Tornados and take pics and/or movies, if you like. This is a question I think quite a few people would like to compare. That is for what advantages or no. Now in case, I'm still a human GT so I still have a lot to dodge and thus strafing is kind of a must at times.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-03-13 12:01 ]</font>

amtalx
Mar 13, 2008, 01:58 PM
To be honest, none of this matters. Come 4/11 we are going to have leveled bullets of every type. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Then no one will have an excuse. I've been putting off leveling Twin bullets since day 1.

Tengoku
Mar 13, 2008, 02:20 PM
On 2008-03-13 11:14, Hrith wrote:
Rifles already outperform twin handguns against airborne bosses, that's not the point. The point is if rifles will outperform twin handguns in any situation, and I fear they will.
Well, if your quest is pure damage and not utility, then you are correct. Congratulations! You've found a way you like to play and that's great! Others play in a different style and they find that twin handguns are superior for their play style.

I find the mobility of handguns far outweigh the damage potential of rifles. My play style > your desire for numbers. This isn't to say, of course, that sitting back and blasting things with my Phantoms isn't fun. It is, but I prefer being mobile, pulling aggro off my team, and actually being able to dodge the resulting attacks while I fight. That is enjoyable to me, and far more enjoyable that worrying about big numbers. To put it this way, my team > my ego.

Of course, nothing says "Ignore my postings" quite like this response to Akaimizu:

On 2008-03-13 11:23, Hrith wrote:
You "think", I know.
Awesome. Are you here to actually discuss the topic or try and browbeat people into submission? They're two quite different things, you know.

Talise
Mar 13, 2008, 05:49 PM
umm...truth be told, Hrith=fortegunner. His views are biased okay, enough said.

FOnewearl-Lina
Mar 13, 2008, 06:25 PM
Aikasoki/Cubo Mamba and Shigga Bines/Shigga Bomac largely outdamage Twin Ruby Bullet.
Newsflash: Shotgun outdamages every other weapon in fortegunners' arsenal save for grenade and laser. But this topic isn't really about those weapons now is it? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif


The picture above comes from a 130/20 Fortegunner.
You'd think the fact that she has an S rank rifle equipped already gave it away or something? Just a wild hunch http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif


Twin handguns don't fire twice as many bullets as rifles, far from it. Don't compare 801 to 1152 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif
No, but for every 2 bullets fired from your twins you get approximtely 1.25 bullets from your rifle. You'd only need to use simple multiplication to figure out that twins do more overall damage http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif


The point is if rifles will outperform twin handguns in any situation, and I fear they will.
You "fear", I know. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
Good luck with rifle in the last few stages of survival, where mobility and range of twins make them a far better option than rifle would ever be.

biggabertha
Mar 13, 2008, 06:47 PM
I think I can GUARANTEE that leveling Handgun rounds are MUCH slower than leveling Twin Handgun rounds.

In fact, Mayalee Hit levels REALLY slowly if you're not a Fortegunner but er.... that's waaaay off-topic.


It's kind of amusing to see such debates about Twin Handguns against Rifles. There's always going to be times when Rifles users will laugh through Twin Handgun users and vice-versa. Of course, you could just switch to different weapons in your arsenal if neither of them really suit the situation but Twin Handguns can't compare ranges with a Rifle and Rifles can't compare offencive mobility to Twin Handguns.

Isn't the point Hrith's trying to make is when you need offencive mobility, you should switch to another weapon such as the Crossbow or the Mechgun? Some months ago, I remember a user doing entire Hive S2 runs without getting hit with a Crossbow so are these bonus event missions really that dangerous if you take your time to watch the enemies movements? Or have I gone off topic again? Yeah... I have.... those two aren't Rifles... oops.

Tengoku
Mar 13, 2008, 07:08 PM
On 2008-03-13 16:47, biggabertha wrote:Isn't the point Hrith's trying to make is when you need offencive mobility, you should switch to another weapon such as the Crossbow or the Mechgun? Not really. Hrith's point seems to be that rifles are always superior to twins, based on his experience and playstyle. He also doesn't seem to believe that there's room for disagreement. Well, disagreement with him, anyways.

Talise
Mar 13, 2008, 11:13 PM
On 2008-03-13 17:08, Tengoku wrote:

On 2008-03-13 16:47, biggabertha wrote:Isn't the point Hrith's trying to make is when you need offencive mobility, you should switch to another weapon such as the Crossbow or the Mechgun? Not really. Hrith's point seems to be that rifles are always superior to twins, based on his experience and playstyle. He also doesn't seem to believe that there's room for disagreement. Well, disagreement with him, anyways.


well, that's only half it, he's aiming at all the other weapons in your arsenal(except card and handgun?) are superior to twin handguns, so they should never be used.

amtalx
Mar 14, 2008, 06:49 AM
Yea...beware of these kind of encounters with Hrith. I've had several in the past. Here is how they typically go...

You: Makes point.
Hrith: Counters with somewhat reasonable point.
You: Makes counterpoint.
Hrith: Counters with unrelated point about another weapon to avoid being wrong.
You: Tries to get debate back on track.
Hrith: Calls you a noob, lrn2red, etc.
You: Posts pics, calculations, or some other kind of solid data.
Hrith: Throws flashbang and disappears into the night.

biggabertha
Mar 14, 2008, 07:36 AM
If I use the analogy that Twin Handguns are a hybrid weapon; combining range, damage and aimable functions that are far superior to that of the more specialised weapons in a Fortegunner/Guntecher's arsenal such as the Rifle, Shotgun, Laser, Crossbow and Mechgun (Throwing Blades as well to a degree for Guntechers) where those weapons do better than Twin Handguns (provided you can get them to load gurr PS2 gurrs).

Going on that analogy, does that make Twin Handguns just the easiest weapon to use in almost any situation as opposed to the other weapons where you ought to put some effort into using? Twin Handguns are easily used everywhere and anywhere whilst dealing extremely satisfying damage (provided you have bullet levels) whilst Rifles, Shotguns, Laser Cannons, (Grenade Launcher for Fortegunner), Crossbows and Mechguns (Throwing Blades as well for Guntechers) are for the more specialised situations?

I can't argue that Twin Handguns to me seem cooler than Rifles and I can't really say that Rifles are really superior to them because I'm a Protranser at heart, I don't do mobility or speed firing or damage but I can say that Twin Handguns and Rifle users annoy me the most when they drag away or push away an enemy out of my Anga Jabroga range. The bullet flinching for all bullets have made Twin Handguns not as effective at pulling away a few creatures away from the group to me but maybe that's because I'm bitter that my Jabroga only hits four targets rather than five....

Akaimizu
Mar 14, 2008, 07:43 AM
Depends on the user. Distraction is usually best served as a way to get the ire of mobs away from the Hunter setting up a big attack. I know how fustrating it is to get Jabroga or any great setup interrupted. You can use distraction weapons and dance around creatures in a way that keeps them together as a pack. Especially since I'm a laser user, or am used to travelling with tech chuckers and the like, keeping the mobs together is kind of a priority.

Heck, I still have too much that requires them to group. Stuff like a few scenarios in Moatoob, where they spawn Vanda all spread at different points of the room is the most non-optimal thing I see. Can't even use traps effectively on them, unless I want to use all of my appropriate traps at once, just for that room.

Now some real time inaccuracies could occur. A case where you miss a target, but if they are thinking about you, they're probably trying to help you not get your Jabroga interrupted. 4 targets is better than 0.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-03-14 05:45 ]</font>

XenithFlare
Mar 14, 2008, 05:48 PM
Honestly, I believe that Twins will outdamage rifles in pure dps, but i wouldn't use them over bows (I'm a hardcore bow>rifle fan) against bosses. But then again, I also prefer to use the weapons I want to, rather than those that are socially acceptable in a given situation. *shrug*

As for levelling speed, it is MUCH easier to level twins than rifles. I would place them third, just after rifles and xbows; I remember it taking no time at all to level Twin Mayalee to 21 when it first came out, compared to Yak Megiga or even Frozen Shot.

Aaaand there was something said about Mechguns that I wanted to discuss. Their low ATA is completely made up for by your characters inherent ATA, and hitting for 350+ dmg A HIT makes MechGuns a formiddable weapon to bring to bear against damn near everything. A properly grinded Beam Vulcanic has over 1k PP, and that doesn't run out very quickly even when firing nonstop. Against small mobs, mechgun > all.

Talise
Mar 14, 2008, 10:34 PM
keyword:mob=laser cannon>machinegun, everything else is all good =D

Suz
Mar 14, 2008, 11:55 PM
Rifles = stand still, pew pew. OH SNAP MEGID *Sidestep, pew pew*
Twin Handies = Mobility, Gunsligner, pew pew. OH SNAP MEGID! *dodges while pew pew'ing*

You want to be bored, use a rifle. If you think PSU is lame and dull and you wish it was more fast paced, use twin handies. Simple. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Yusaku_Kudou
Mar 15, 2008, 12:21 AM
Twin Handguns are probably my favorite guns in the game, maybe even my favorite weapons, and I'm just a fortegunner. Love strafing and firing pistols.

Hrith
Mar 15, 2008, 08:13 AM
On 2008-03-13 16:25, FOnewearl-Lina wrote:[...]I know, I was not replying to you at all =/


Good luck with rifle in the last few stages of survival, where mobility and range of twins make them a far better option than rifle would ever be.Except that's not what I said, not even implied.

You don't have a point, though, if rifles did outdamage twin handguns, the latters' mobility would be null and void. There are too few threats at rifle range.

I said rifles outperform twin handguns, on bosses. Of course you could be lucky and have Onmagoug just stay idle for the whole fight, but 'luck' does not come into DPS calculations.



On 2008-03-13 17:08, Tengoku wrote:

On 2008-03-13 16:47, biggabertha wrote:Isn't the point Hrith's trying to make is when you need offencive mobility, you should switch to another weapon such as the Crossbow or the Mechgun? Not really. Hrith's point seems to be that rifles are always superior to twins, based on his experience and playstyle. He also doesn't seem to believe that there's room for disagreement. Well, disagreement with him, anyways.Actually, no, biggabertha got it right.

I never said that rifles performed better than twin handguns in any situation, only bosses.
I am wondering what the situation will be after the rifle update, though.

Akaimizu is not disagreeing with me, he's disagreeing with facts.
Twin Ruby Bullet +10 will never outdamage shotguns or crossbows, on any class which can use them, including Guntecher.

Rifles fire 110 bullets per minute. Twin handguns fire 160 bullets per minute.
Using Lina's figures (which won't be perfectly accurate, since it's only one figure):
1152 x 110 = 126720 = 2112 DPS
801 x 160 = 128160 = 2136 DPS

A difference of 24 in DPS is not significant, and rifles have more ATA, much more range, Lv4 SEs.
Because next to nothing can hurt you at rifle range, rifles are more likely to have the most sustained rate of fire, despite the mobility of twin handguns.


So yeah, I think twin handguns are greatly disappointing, because they're supposed to be a "damage" weapon type, and rifles, which are not, perform just as well, or better.


This has nothing to do with 'playstyle', Tengoku, if you'd rather be weaker and slower, you're welcome, I don't give a damn.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hrith on 2008-03-15 13:27 ]</font>

panzer_unit
Mar 15, 2008, 08:58 AM
On 2008-03-15 06:13, Hrith wrote:
Rifles fire 80 bullets per minute. Twin handguns fire 120 bullets per minute.
Using Lina's figures (which won't be perfectly accurate, since it's only one figure):
1152 x 80 = 92160 = 1536 DPS
801 x 120 = 96120 = 1602 DPS

A difference of 66 in DPS is not very significant, and rifles have more ATA, much more range, Lv4 SEs.
Because next to nothing can hurt you at rifle range, rifles are more likely to have the most sustained rate of fire, despite the mobility of twin handguns.


At rifle ranges, Twins won't hit AT ALL. The rate of fire difference is more like 80 vs 0... that's a retarded comparison (no surprise) so what about rifles and twins at twins range? Twins still fire 120 shots/minute or whatever, rifles will lose whatever time you spend moving from their real rate of fire. Personally I'd use a laser or mechgun instead, but that's a different story. Point is it's time for that ninja smoke pellet.

ATP growth from higher character levels will also wash out the rifles' ~300 ATP advantage a bit eventually but it'll probably take a lot of levels and S-rank ATP units before that becomes a big factor.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-03-15 11:57 ]</font>

Hrith
Mar 15, 2008, 09:01 AM
If you're not joking, then you're stupid beyond words.

panzer_unit
Mar 15, 2008, 09:16 AM
No, twins don't hit at rifle ranges. I'm serious. I'm assuming that's your counter-argument, since you don't have one at all there without me making it up.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-03-15 07:24 ]</font>

GreenArcher
Mar 15, 2008, 10:24 AM
I like my twin handguns. I also like my rifles. Just though I'd share that with everyone

Talise
Mar 15, 2008, 11:31 AM
panzer bought up a good point...by Hrith's theory, rifles keep enemies at bay, but then that only works if there's 3 enemies or less, so laser cannon will do the job until then...at which point: rifle fires at 3 targets alternately or fires and avoids spells and fires... twins take 1 second to close with the enemy then proceed to strafe and shoot continuously...which means rifle did not gain an advantage.

Hrith
Mar 15, 2008, 02:31 PM
I had to read that paragraph several times. I was sure there was something intelligent in it, just well hidden, but no.

Twin handguns are good at avoiding damage by strafing.
Rifles are good at avoiding damage by being out of harm's reach.

If the situation does not allow you to be at rifle range, twin handguns are better.
If the situation allows you to remain far enough from any hit, rifles are better.

Trying to make up stuff because you're wrong is only harder on yourself.

Hrith
Mar 15, 2008, 03:29 PM
On 2008-03-15 06:13, Hrith wrote:
Rifles fire 80 bullets per minute. Twin handguns fire 120 bullets per minute.
Using Lina's figures (which won't be perfectly accurate, since it's only one figure):
1152 x 80 = 92160 = 1536 DPS
801 x 120 = 96120 = 1602 DPS

A difference of 66 in DPS is not very significant, and rifles have more ATA, much more range, Lv4 SEs.My bad, it's actually 110 vs 160:

Rifles fire 110 bullets per minute. Twin handguns fire 160 bullets per minute.
Using Lina's figures (which won't be perfectly accurate, since it's only one figure):
1152 x 110 = 126720 = 2112 DPS
801 x 160 = 128160 = 2136 DPS

A difference of 24 in DPS is not significant, and rifles have more ATA, much more range, Lv4 SEs.

biggabertha
Mar 15, 2008, 08:05 PM
I don't know about you guys but I like keeping all enemies in my screen rather than just one or two. Gaozarans are my FAVOURITE example. There's no way you can strafe around three of these guys safely while the offscreen ones are firing at you unless I really play shoddily (or I've been spoilt by melee's strafe capabilities).

It's times like that, I'd go melee but since my Longbow's the only thing closest to a Rifle I have, I can stay safe at a nice distance and see all the Foies coming my way and have juuuust enough time to move out of the way. Sure it takes longer but I can't peck things with my Handgun and keep all three Gaozarans in view all the time but maybe you can argue that Twin Handguns would deal with them twice as fast since they fire at twice the speed of a Handgun.

I'm fairly sure Rifles are better than Longbows in terms of firing rate so you can pin these things down faster with a Rifle rather than a Longbow. Also, you most likely have a lot more maneuverability after each shot with a Rifle than a Longbow so maybe I'm not making a very fair comparison with how I deal with these kinds of situations. (So much easier to Majillion the lot and chomp Scape dolls, even if it isn't as economic or professsional, it sure feels better stabbing the living daylights out of those hovering things.)

Also:




On 2008-03-13 17:08, Tengoku wrote:

On 2008-03-13 16:47, biggabertha wrote:
Isn't the point Hrith's trying to make is when you need offencive mobility, you should switch to another weapon such as the Crossbow or the Mechgun?
Not really. Hrith's point seems to be that rifles are always superior to twins, based on his experience and playstyle. He also doesn't seem to believe that there's room for disagreement. Well, disagreement with him, anyways.

Actually, no, biggabertha got it right.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: biggabertha on 2008-03-15 18:08 ]</font>

Yusaku_Kudou
Mar 15, 2008, 08:39 PM
Considering rifles push enemies out of range, the range argument becomes null since the gunner has to move back into range with a rifle. I just use both rifles and twin handguns on my pallet for various circumstances. All of this name calling is for children who need to learn better.

xJakkalx
Mar 15, 2008, 08:44 PM
Well, I don't know much about calculations or the statistics of the guns in question for that matter, but do you all have to argue so readily?

We all have our pride and our ego, but come now. This is ridiculous, to be wound up about something so trivial.

Just use what weapons you like!

Talise
Mar 15, 2008, 11:40 PM
On 2008-03-15 12:31, Hrith wrote:
I had to read that paragraph several times. I was sure there was something intelligent in it, just well hidden, but no.

Twin handguns are good at avoiding damage by strafing.
Rifles are good at avoiding damage by being out of harm's reach.

If the situation does not allow you to be at rifle range, twin handguns are better.
If the situation allows you to remain far enough from any hit, rifles are better.

Trying to make up stuff because you're wrong is only harder on yourself.


I'm right because, twin handguns also stunlock enemies with aoti, so rifles do not keep things away from you any better than twins. It also totally makes sense that you're not gonna use rifle with a lot of enemies because there's no way you're gonna keep them all back from you, which is where you say rifle advantage is. So, my twins are doing exactly the same thing your rifle is, except you get a 1 second headstart, and I can still move while I do what you do.

Hrith
Mar 16, 2008, 08:02 AM
On 2008-03-15 18:05, biggabertha wrote:
I don't know about you guys but I like keeping all enemies in my screen rather than just one or two. Gaozarans are my FAVOURITE example. There's no way you can strafe around three of these guys safely while the offscreen ones are firing at you unless I really play shoddily (or I've been spoilt by melee's strafe capabilities).I dunno, I just use Barada Yoga or Yak Yoga on those. Sometimes Yak Zagenga, since they damage me.

I use up like 4 trimates against the three Gaozoran spawn in True Darkness, in a bad day.
I'd rather use 4 trimates and kill them twice as fast than use Rising Shot >_>


On 2008-03-15 18:39, Yusaku_Kudou wrote:
Considering rifles push enemies out of range, the range argument becomes null since the gunner has to move back into range with a rifle.All guns push out of range, think BEFORE posting.

And with the update, rifles will have knockdown.


On 2008-03-15 21:40, Talise wrote:
I'm right because, twin handguns also stunlock enemies with aoti, so rifles do not keep things away from you any better than twins. It also totally makes sense that you're not gonna use rifle with a lot of enemies because there's no way you're gonna keep them all back from you, which is where you say rifle advantage is.Except no, that's not what I said at all.
The advantage of rifles comes from not being close enough to the monsters so they could hurt you, it has nothing to do with pushing monsters back, all guns do that.

Twin handguns are also not better than rifles against a lot of enemies. Twin handguns are better if the said enemies are close to you. D-U-H.
You've pointed out that rifles are not good at close range, fascinating (although, with the knockdown update, they will be much better in that regard).


Lastly, there are other ranged weapons, and not many situations allow twin handguns to shine...

Long range: lasers > rifles > cards > twin handguns.

Middle range: lasers > machineguns > cards > twin handguns.

Close range: shotguns > crossbows > machineguns > twin handguns.

Airborne monsters: shotguns > machineguns > twin handguns.

Airborne bosses: rifles > twin handguns.

Twin handguns are never the best weapons to use for a Fortegunner or a Guntecher.
They are only the best for a Fighgunner, Acrofighter or Acrotecher against a flying boss, that's kind of a limited use.

We can agree that after the rifle update, rifles and twin handguns will have the same damage output, so it will be mobility versus range+Lv4SE+accuracy+knockdown, can you honestly say twin handguns win this fight?

I'll still use rifles on my FG and twin handguns on my GT, because of the "lol specialty" part, but let's be honest, twin handguns are useless, factually.

Talise
Mar 16, 2008, 12:08 PM
On 2008-03-16 06:02, Hrith wrote:

On 2008-03-15 21:40, Talise wrote:
I'm right because, twin handguns also stunlock enemies with aoti, so rifles do not keep things away from you any better than twins. It also totally makes sense that you're not gonna use rifle with a lot of enemies because there's no way you're gonna keep them all back from you, which is where you say rifle advantage is.Except no, that's not what I said at all.
The advantage of rifles comes from not being close enough to the monsters so they could hurt you, it has nothing to do with pushing monsters back, all guns do that.

Twin handguns are also not better than rifles against a lot of enemies. Twin handguns are better if the said enemies are close to you. D-U-H.
You've pointed out that rifles are not good at close range, fascinating (although, with the knockdown update, they will be much better in that regard).


Lastly, there are other ranged weapons, and not many situations allow twin handguns to shine...

Long range: lasers > rifles > cards > twin handguns.

Middle range: lasers > machineguns > cards > twin handguns.

Close range: shotguns > crossbows > machineguns > twin handguns.

Airborne monsters: shotguns > machineguns > twin handguns.

Airborne bosses: rifles > twin handguns.

Twin handguns are never the best weapons to use for a Fortegunner or a Guntecher.
They are only the best for a Fighgunner, Acrofighter or Acrotecher against a flying boss, that's kind of a limited use.

We can agree that after the rifle update, rifles and twin handguns will have the same damage output, so it will be mobility versus range+Lv4SE+accuracy+knockdown, can you honestly say twin handguns win this fight?

I'll still use rifles on my FG and twin handguns on my GT, because of the "lol specialty" part, but let's be honest, twin handguns are useless, factually.


Let's discuss this in a civilized way, without flaming ppl... No the point was twin handguns can keep enemies away from you in medium range, and that's only a 1 second walk away. Just because when you use a rifle it gives you a feeling of distance, it doesn't really make a difference at all. You might as well just use a machine gun. If you want to argue about other weapons, then just use those instead of your rifle, there's no chance for rifle to shine where twin handguns do not, except for bosses. Also I'm now going to point out you're still trying to make a fortegunner argument. Comparing Lina's Rattlesnake 3/10, while guntechers can only have a phantom 10/10 period, which is still weaker. You can talk about updates all you want, but if everyone's just gonna talk about how this thing will be better later then I can just say you're all nubs discussing this because Master's gonna come out and all these class arguments are useless. Deal with what you have, not what has been announced.
P.S. the main point was twin handguns can be used in lots of situations and they still deal good enough damage, but you fail to grasp this concept so you should just stop talking about this now because you're never gonna get anywhere if you can't discuss this point.

biggabertha
Mar 16, 2008, 10:00 PM
Isn't this discussion about Twin Handguns seeming to be better than Rifles? The way I see it, it's because Twin Handguns allow you to move while being on the offencive, which is awesome because it fits a lot of nice roles like being the only ranged weapon that you can use in the field and against any manner of enemy.

The point I believe Hrith's trying to make, is that there will always be a faster or more powerful ranged weapon in your arsenal to combat any enemy at a given time than Twin Handguns for Fortegunners or Guntechers. I can see where most of the argument is coming from though, now that I've re-read all of the posts and it may possibly be from a misunderstanding. Twin Handguns are probably the best at being the middle ground weapon, yes but why use the middle ground weapon when you always have better options?


Long range: lasers > rifles > cards > twin handguns.

Middle range: lasers > machineguns > cards > twin handguns.

Close range: shotguns > crossbows > machineguns > twin handguns.

Airborne monsters: shotguns > machineguns > twin handguns.

Airborne bosses: rifles > twin handguns.

That actually sums it up very well. As you can see, not a single weapon aside from Twin Handguns appears in every situation thus allowing Twin Handguns to be the most general use weapon. You could even argue that Handgun is even more of a general use weapon because it allows for a right handed weapon to attack/recharge with but that's not what this discussion's about.

I suppose it's okay to have a full arsenal of Twin HAndgun bullets because they'll work in almost any situation but there are almost always better options but have a certain "risk" value or "safe" value associated with them. Again, Twin Handguns are the middle ground, they don't deal horrendous damage, they deal good damage that beats Rifles in any situation - except when Dimmagolus keeps circling the damn arena and you have to chase the bugger with Handgun/Twin Handgun range when instead you can just sit roughly in the middle of the arena with (in my case, a Longbow) a Rifle and pew pew his/her/its wings.

Whilst it's good to keep enemies away from you with Twin Handguns, wouldn't it be better to kill them outright faster instead of faffing around with them and leaving the main brunt of the work for everyone else (if anyone)? SUre they're great for utility and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that they're fairly relaxed weapons to use due to their ease of use.

Hrith didn't actually say that Rifles beat out Twin Handguns outside of bosses in any of his posts except when he feared that the update will make Rifles that much more dangerous and turn it into a utility weapon itself. Come on, not counting Twin Penetration, Twin Handguns can't hit anymore targets than Rifles can, Rifle can stay at a further range than Twin Handguns while keeping a better eye on all of the enemies, Rifles knock the enemy down so they won't get knocked back, flinch or back away from you and they have a much higher Status Effect than Twin Handguns. So Twin Handguns only have raw damage which Rifles are may be getting dangerously close to.

Hrith may have implied Rifles were better in any and all situations but he never directly says so unless it's about a flying boss fight.


I dunno, I just use Barada Yoga or Yak Yoga on those. Sometimes Yak Zagenga, since they damage me.

I use up like 4 trimates against the three Gaozoran spawn in True Darkness, in a bad day.
I'd rather use 4 trimates and kill them twice as fast than use Rising Shot >_>

Awww.. I'm a Protranser.... That Foie of theirs hits me for just under half HP and that's if one of them hits me, three of them and it's LIGHTS OUT! Using my long range weaponry's the only way I could think of at the time to avoid getting hit by several Foies at a time (maybe I'm still playing like a beginner, worried about getting hurt etc.) but truth be told, I never really twigged using Barada Yoga on them because of Gibarta but now that it's been pointed out to me, that's a really obvious choice to do... Now it's a good thing I'm a Protranser! I won't have to Grenade Launcher them all into a damned corner now (Virus G and Freeze EX doesn't feel satisfying enough and I grow weary of Majillion or Dugrega being the answer to anything and everything).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: biggabertha on 2008-03-16 20:14 ]</font>

Talise
Mar 16, 2008, 11:00 PM
very good summary. While the argument wasn't exactly on topic, it was over whether twin handguns were worth using at all, from our very first posts. You've recognized the inferior damage but lower usage restriction on twin handguns, so it's really up to each person to decide as far as whether they want to use twin handguns.

Hrith
Mar 17, 2008, 08:13 AM
On 2008-03-16 20:00, biggabertha wrote:
That actually sums it up very well. As you can see, not a single weapon aside from Twin Handguns appears in every situation thus allowing Twin Handguns to be the most general use weapon.My list is in no way exhaustive, I only mentioned a few weapons to make my point clear.

You can use crossbows or shotguns at mid range, if there are enough targets/if they are spread out enough. And it actually happens a lot with crossbows, since it's easy to stunlock three monsters in a crossbow's rate of fire.


Awww.. I'm a Protranser.... That Foie of theirs hits me for just under half HP and that's if one of them hits me, three of them and it's LIGHTS OUT!Don't Protransers have more HP than Fortegunners?

PTs can just use EX traps to destroy that spawn, anyway. Takes a bit longer, but it's safe, at least.


I've read enough stupid posts from people who use arguments I proved wrong three posts above (which excludes you, biggabertha).

Talise
Mar 17, 2008, 11:44 AM
right....just because you're ignoring the one point that has been argued about, and bringing up points that don't argue against it... that makes you the stupid one.

Akaimizu
Mar 17, 2008, 11:45 AM
I wouldn't join in the name-calling aspect. That's generally for elitists. I'm just glad that my points were generally agreed on, even if what I wasn't talking about was somehow twisted into what one counted as my logic.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-03-17 09:48 ]</font>

Talise
Mar 17, 2008, 12:01 PM
okay, let me put it this way. If you weren't elitist, would you be all like "DPS>all. See it my way"

Tengoku
Mar 17, 2008, 02:01 PM
On 2008-03-15 06:13, Hrith wrote:
This has nothing to do with 'playstyle', Tengoku, if you'd rather be weaker and slower, you're welcome, I don't give a damn.Obviously you do give a damn, because you flame like we insulted you personally, but that's not the point. There's nothing weaker about being a utilty player, unless all you care about is your numbers. Been there, done that, realized it's pointless.

You're a big numbers kinda person. That's ok, because that's your playstyle. Funny thing is, there's more than one way to play the game. Utility > big numbers is my playstle. You can stand back and stroke yourself over your awesome DPS numbers, which is how you say you play, or you can do more than sit back and pew-pew. I stroke myself over actually helping out the team by doing more than racing for the highest DPS.

Here's another way of looking at it; by merely sitting back and shooting things, going for the big numbers, you've made yourself easily replaceable. Anyone can sit back and shoot stuff, occasionally dodging, and counting the critical shots. It's easy. Not so easily replaced is the player that actually moves about, taking threats away from those who do better when not targeted, and dividing the mobs, making big/ tough spawns easier to take down. That player is not so easy to replace, because they're dynamic, take the initiative, take action without being prompted or reminded, and make the runs easier and quicker.

Sure, rifles do more damage, but that game isn't merely about damage. It's about a team effort to defeat challenges, not about a shooting range. Thus, Hrith, it really does come down to playstyle, as opposed to raw numbers, no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.

So it really comes down to situational need and playstyle. Yes, there are times it is better to sit back and blast things with your rifle. Much the same, there are sitiations where it is better to be mobile and not worry about how much damage you do. The only weakness is the inability to be flexible and do what is needed when it is needed.

It's your choice. Make it wisely.

biggabertha
Mar 17, 2008, 08:38 PM
You're a big numbers kinda person. That's ok, because that's your playstyle. Funny thing is, there's more than one way to play the game. Utility > big numbers is my playstle. You can stand back and stroke yourself over your awesome DPS numbers, which is how you say you play, or you can do more than sit back and pew-pew. I stroke myself over actually helping out the team by doing more than racing for the highest DPS.

NAUGHTY THOUGHTS! NAUGHTY THOUGHTS! ARGH!!!!!!!!!

I had to put my laptop aside for a few minutes so I could stop giggling to myself before reading the rest of your post, sorry Tengoku ._.

*Er-hem*

I'm still irked by the Fortegunners that I've played with who've abused Twin Handguns (back when many bullets didn't flinch enemies) that draw one creature into the next room and have them re-appear in a really awful spot (like RIGHT next to me ready to Dammufoie/Megid/Double Foie/make me block a split second before Anga Jabroga touches the floor) which is probably why I don't really like Twin Handgun users.

Fair enough if you use them in the name of utility coupled with damage to help out the team but speaking as a partial Hunter-Ranger hybrid, I remember consistently shooting at a single target with my Handgun while my friend assaults it with her melee attacks. Every attack physically missed because I was pushing it back and I had done what I had hated seeing gunners do in the past. It's very easy to do this and I don't know how you can use Twin Handguns conservatively because I wasn't mashing the square button so I could get a shot off every split second and I've tried shooting every second and a half or similar... so I don't see how Twin Handguns can really be used as utility, they're, as I've previously said, good middle ground weapons with no real strengths or weaknesses. (Think of them like HUmars in PSO, they're not the best physical fighters, certainly not the best ranger and definitely not the best techer but they can do all of it adequately but they suck in terms of damage efficiency within strong teams.)

Sure they deal fantastic damage but Hrith's already pointed out the many situations that you would use Twin Handguns and which weapons will out-perform them in those situations. The point's not about Rifles being better than Twin Handguns in any situation, it's about Rifles being better than Twin Handguns against flying bosses, Crossbows better than Twin Handguns for mobile destruction whilst Shotguns and Laser Cannons for multiple enemies close up or fairly far away.

Despite the original discussion being about Twin Handguns being better than Rifles, it's going to be extremely nit-picky wether or not they really are. It's subjective really, do you want to help your team by killing enemies faster with different weapons or do you support your team by "distracting" them out of attack range?

In the events where you had to kill things quickly or effectively, there is no way you would use Twin Handguns instead of Crossbows or SHotguns in those situations because they just don't deal the damage fast enough but you would be "helping" your team by distracting them right?


It's your choice. Make it wisely.

Freeze EX traps aren't (so) fun solo when there's no Hunter/Ranger/Force going nuts with their knockback PA but I suppose it's better to play it safe than play dead.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: biggabertha on 2008-03-17 18:44 ]</font>

Talise
Mar 17, 2008, 09:11 PM
the way I see it, laser cannons and shotguns can distract enemies just fine, so I'm gonna have to disagree with tengo on this one. However, twins can be fun for tagging enemies individually. Also, mobs are better when grouped together, so long as they're not targeting YOU. So, if the gunner has their attention, and they're in a group, you can consider that part of the job done.

biggabertha
Mar 17, 2008, 09:56 PM
You know... thinking about it... If you want to help out your team with distraction, shouldn't you use Barada Chamga, run around in small circles and take those hits like a team player? You can switch to your Twin Handguns afterwards if you're on the PC for instant weapon changes but for those of us on PS2s (I don't know how quickly ranged weapons load on a 360), just keep mashing the square button and hope those creatures don't get too close to your meager HP/DFP.

Also, having 10% more HP than Fortegunners doesn't let me take an extra hit from their Foies compared to you! (Not to mention you're a cast and I'm a human.... Eeeexcept the racial bonuses are the same so uhm.... *brain hurts*) All I know is that when I see Gaozarans, I search frantically for my teammates to get the ouchies out of the way. Regardless wether or not I'm solo. I do the same with all single target large and dangerous creatures that are melee resistant. Really got to use that Shotgun more for damage rather than leveling/tagging (despite being max level anyway).

Whoops, off topic again... I do this too easily.

Talise
Mar 17, 2008, 10:03 PM
weapons take close to a second to load, more if it lags.(360)

MEGAMANexe
Mar 18, 2008, 12:19 PM
ok ive heard a couple of comments about how guntechers can only use phantoms and stuff. well, think about this. a 10/10 phantom combined with a phantom line is as strong as a 10/10 rattlesnake

MEGAMANexe
Mar 18, 2008, 12:26 PM
and as for my opinion, i say rifles are better than twins... its totally about your preference. for me i like to stay out of harms reach. and for others who say a rifle isn't contributing consider this, i have a level 38 frozen shot that freezes quite often. all i need to do is freeze every enemy out in a continous chain to keep them from attacking others. doesn't that help out the team?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MEGAMANexe on 2008-03-18 10:32 ]</font>

panzer_unit
Mar 18, 2008, 02:31 PM
On 2008-03-16 20:00, biggabertha wrote:
Isn't this discussion about Twin Handguns seeming to be better than Rifles? ... The point I believe Hrith's trying to make, is that there will always be a faster or more powerful ranged weapon in your arsenal to combat any enemy at a given time than Twin Handguns for Fortegunners or Guntechers.

I can see where most of the argument is coming from though, now that I've re-read all of the posts and it may possibly be from a misunderstanding. Twin Handguns are probably the best at being the middle ground weapon, yes but why use the middle ground weapon when you always have better options?

Now that the original argument's been settled in a draw, we're going off-topic trying to "argue" the self-explanatory ALL OTHER GUNS TOGETHER > TWIN HANDGUN. It's like a scape doll for the thread so it can go on calling people retards.

I don't use twin handguns, as a pure Fortegunner I wouldn't bother with them either. A general-purpose weapon like that really doesn't have a use when your JOB is to be highly skilled with all kinds of specialized firearms. I can still imagine why I'd use them in some alternate reality where I was more centred on some other class...

A lot of jobs can use Twin Handguns, and for most of them Twin Handgun is the best long-range and boss-fighting gun, rather than a middle-ground option where there's something a little better for any specific combat role. For a character that changes jobs a lot, it's better to keep going with a weapon you use in a lot of classes and pick ONE really high-value rifle skill for long range shooting, rather than starting a whole bunch of fresh elements.

Even for GT (maybe for GT most of all jobs... hmm) there are just too many non-bullet skills to learn EVERY element on EVERY firearm... nor enough time to level them all up. It makes sense to choose what situations you're okay with covering using a generic all-purpose firearm, so you can learn and work on the PA's and/or techs you want.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-03-18 13:27 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-03-18 13:29 ]</font>

Talise
Mar 18, 2008, 10:55 PM
On 2008-03-18 10:19, MEGAMANexe wrote:
ok ive heard a couple of comments about how guntechers can only use phantoms and stuff. well, think about this. a 10/10 phantom combined with a phantom line is as strong as a 10/10 rattlesnake


you're sacrificing your CASTest line for a phantomline.
Not to mention any S rank units you might want to use.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Talise on 2008-03-18 20:57 ]</font>
And your right panzer. After that last post I think this topic is pretty much over.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Talise on 2008-03-18 21:00 ]</font>