PSO vs PSU observations, hopes for the new Phantasy Star

[Jife_Jifremok]

With all the PSO vs PSU threads out there (and a number that I've probably missed), correct me if I'm wrong but the general concensus seems to be that PSO's world and atmosphere are better but PSU's gameplay is better. Now, wouldn't we then agree that if the next Phantasy Star were to have both a good world and atmosphere and good gameplay, it would completely kick the ass of PSO and PSU? (Of course there's more to it than that, like how PSO's weapons have unique functions and PSU has better drop rates, etc, but I'll get into that later when I feel like posting about it and have time to do so.)

Despite my overall lack of faith in all things post-Saturn Sega, I can't help but hope that they realize the strengths and shortcomings of both games, merge the strengths of the games together and consider both games' shortcomings to make the next Phantasy the ultimate (for the time being).

For instance, the overall mood of the games. PSO has this more relaxed "exploration" feel to it, the dynamic music adding to the experience and there's no need to kill every single monster. PSU's more about "let's go kick those SEED offa this planet" than exploration, and the GUARDIANS dock your pay if you don't kill every last creature (and this kinda makes sense, since you probably don't want some SEED-forms you didn't bother to destroy starting to run amok in some civilian sector---or do you?). There's no ambient music, but you're on an extermination mission so this makes sense. However, at the very core of things, PSO's Forest really isn't all that different from Plains Overlord if you ignore the obvious gameplay, environment and enemy differences. You're still required to unlock doors by killing monsters, still traveling by "blocks", still fighting a boss in a big room at the end. The only thing setting the PSO exploration mood or the PSU mission mood is the music.

I find that there's nothing inherently wrong with having exploration or missions. But, PSU's mission style is definitely missing something...like, perhaps, an actual missiony feel, something to diffrentiate it from being just a PSO-like exploration expedition.

This leads me to conclude that the next Phantasy Star should have both PSO-ish exploration and PSU-esque extermination. What I mean is, have a lot of PSO-esque "free run" areas like you've had in PSO, free from being ranked and evaluated. But in addition to this, have a lot of PSU-esque missions VASTLY different from the normal "free-run" areas. I mean MISSIONS. Having different kinds of objectives, sometimes multiple objectives, sometimes having a time limit. Rankings based on performance in specific criteria depending on the objectives (like time taken, damage to protectees, enemies destroyed, damage done to self, etc). Oh, and no ability to return to town/base/shop, so you'd better be properly supplied and able to use them carefully! (Actually, it's kinda like PSU's current story missions...except I'm envisioning objectives that don't suck. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

I'd post more, but I'm short on time for now. I have dreams of a combat system that would iron out everything that's wrong with PSU's combat (and believe me, there's a lot), the items, and some other things. But I'll save that for later. Maybe I'll have better wording by then.

[Yunfa]

woa not another "what I think about the future of PSU," Im sorry, but it's getting redundant. Nice sig tho. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[icewyrm]

All of your points beg the question, what plans are currently in place for the phantasy star franchise? After a bit of quick googling, I couldn't find any interviews, rumor posts or the like indicating any kind of future ps plans asides from the rather cheesy looking psp port. To create a game that satisfies your conditions, first requires the making of a game.

[Zael]

The only observation I have of that subject is that every god damn topic about it is stupid.

[DEM_CIG]

Im tired of this topics. *YAWN*

[Andy1423]

Then don't post here kids.
.................................................. .


I totally agree with you.



PSO has this more relaxed "exploration" feel to it, the dynamic music adding to the experience

To me, the biggest part about PSU that hinders the imagination is the overall theme of PSU. It's a very dull mixed with a slight bit of cartoonyness. I find this to be the most contrasting element in PSU vs PSO. The futuristic world that is PSO didn't quite make a perfect translation as far as style goes. PSU has a lot of room to "highten" it's futuristic perception.

If you take for instance the Shinowa Hidoki(PSU) vs Sinow Beat(PSO) my point is clearly illustrated. The Shinowa has a more steam punk /ancient look and style. The Sinoa Beat had a very robotic ninja/ robot assassin type feel. One feels modern(pso version) and the other(psu version) feels ancient.

If all lobbies, bases/outposts, and dungeons received a face-lift towards the future(...no pun intended http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif…) then I believe that “exploration[al]” atmosphere will become a little more focused. Of course this also applies to the music, which is certainly key to the atmospheric equation. Not all the music is bad, some of it I absolutely love (sleeping warriors), but yet again the music doesn’t necessarily match the futuristic theme as well. Anyone who hasn’t heard the difference, ( click here http://www.pso-world.com/items/psu/17/music_discs/ ) I guess if I had to sum up what it is about the music I would say “It’s not enough Fantasy and a lot less Star.” By that I mean it needs more dreamy/epic tunes that are (you guessed it) more space frontier/futuristic.

Where are the space ships? Where are the multiple types of robots, not re-skins?

As far as game play goes………….(well I won’t get too much into this)

Drops:::::

PSO had a lot, which in tern gave everyone max meseta very quick, but the rares were RARE to say the least.

PSU has a better value of meseta, but NORMAL items do not drop as much as they should. However the rare drop rates are not too bad.

I think overall they should reconsider how enemies drop items. I think that 9* star weapons should NOT be considered RARE. And in that cases, enemies should have a better chance to drop a weapon based off of the star rarity, but also keeping brand consistency. Also OVERALL LESS BOARDS AND MORE MADE WEPS.

EX….
Golmoro Drops twin daggers.
Lvl 40-49 drops twin ripper, Lvl 50-59 drops last survivor, Lvl 60-69 drops [B] Ryo-misaki
Level brackets the specific type of weapon able to drop, I think they should free it up like so….

LIKE THIS

Golmoro Drops Dagger, Knife, Stinger, Sucker, Ripper, Survivor, Ryo-misaki.

Lvl only matters to the highest lvl except rares(by this I mean S rank and above) So the lvl 52 Golmoro can drop at max item rarity a 6* Last Survivour, however it also can drop 5* ripper, 4* sucker, 3* stinger, 2* knife, and 1* Dagger. The lower the rarity the lower higher chance it might drop. You might end the mission with only 4* and 5* daggers, but they could have a good %, thus value, or you could just sell them and earn money for you time slaying those creatures.

[goaferboy]

One thing I think that makes PSO more about exploration and PSU more about extermination is the storyline. In PSO, Pioneer 2 was sent after pioneer 1 went a bit FUBAR. So in PSO your actually there to explore and find out what happened.

In PSU, the planets are all established and there aren't really any uncharted areas.


Also in PSU, there isnt any hints of a story within the missions. I remember the missions in PSO being more "missioney" ie there was actually a bit of a story to the missions. I remember having to find a robot in the forest for example. In PSU, the closest thing you get to that is having to find a certain amount of discs. And even then, you could finish the level without actually having any of the discs.

I think the next PS game needs bigger maps. Or at least ones that take longer. Or some decent sort of story to them, not just show up, go to the end of block X and kill some stuff on the way. Actual objectives would be a plus.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: goaferboy on 2008-03-26 09:52 ]</font>

[Jife_Jifremok]

On 2008-03-26 06:14, icewyrm wrote:
All of your points beg the question, what plans are currently in place for the phantasy star franchise? After a bit of quick googling, I couldn't find any interviews, rumor posts or the like indicating any kind of future ps plans asides from the rather cheesy looking psp port. To create a game that satisfies your conditions, first requires the making of a game.


They plan to keep PSU alive for at least a few more years. I'm just looking beyond that because the present sucks, that's all. I'm looking forward to a time when I'll once again have hope for Phantasy Star, like I did when I first started seeing videos of PSU.


On 2008-03-26 06:36, Zael wrote:
The only observation I have of that subject is that every god damn topic about it is stupid.
The PSO vs PSU aspect of this thread is really more to help with explaining what I'm hoping to see far into the future than to display fanboyism of one Phantasy Star over another. (You'll find me bashing both since they lack in the gameplay department.) Putting the best things about both games together should, I hope, make the ultimate Phantasy Star.


On 2008-03-26 08:40, Andy1423 wrote:

PSO has this more relaxed "exploration" feel to it, the dynamic music adding to the experience

To me, the biggest part about PSU that hinders the imagination is the overall theme of PSU. It's a very dull mixed with a slight bit of cartoonyness. I find this to be the most contrasting element in PSU vs PSO. The futuristic world that is PSO didn't quite make a perfect translation as far as style goes. PSU has a lot of room to "highten" it's futuristic perception.

If you take for instance the Shinowa Hidoki(PSU) vs Sinow Beat(PSO) my point is clearly illustrated. The Shinowa has a more steam punk /ancient look and style. The Sinoa Beat had a very robotic ninja/ robot assassin type feel. One feels modern(pso version) and the other(psu version) feels ancient.

If all lobbies, bases/outposts, and dungeons received a face-lift towards the future(...no pun intended http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif…) then I believe that “exploration[al]” atmosphere will become a little more focused. Of course this also applies to the music, which is certainly key to the atmospheric equation. Not all the music is bad, some of it I absolutely love (sleeping warriors), but yet again the music doesn’t necessarily match the futuristic theme as well. Anyone who hasn’t heard the difference, ( click here http://www.pso-world.com/items/psu/17/music_discs/ ) I guess if I had to sum up what it is about the music I would say “It’s not enough Fantasy and a lot less Star.” By that I mean it needs more dreamy/epic tunes that are (you guessed it) more space frontier/futuristic.

Where are the space ships? Where are the multiple types of robots, not re-skins?

As far as game play goes………….(well I won’t get too much into this)

Drops:::::

PSO had a lot, which in tern gave everyone max meseta very quick, but the rares were RARE to say the least.

PSU has a better value of meseta, but NORMAL items do not drop as much as they should. However the rare drop rates are not too bad.

I think overall they should reconsider how enemies drop items. I think that 9* star weapons should NOT be considered RARE. And in that cases, enemies should have a better chance to drop a weapon based off of the star rarity, but also keeping brand consistency. Also OVERALL LESS BOARDS AND MORE MADE WEPS.

EX….
Golmoro Drops twin daggers.
Lvl 40-49 drops twin ripper, Lvl 50-59 drops last survivor, Lvl 60-69 drops b Ryo-misaki
Level brackets the specific type of weapon able to drop, I think they should free it up like so….

LIKE THIS

Golmoro Drops Dagger, Knife, Stinger, Sucker, Ripper, Survivor, Ryo-misaki.

Lvl only matters to the highest lvl except rares(by this I mean S rank and above) So the lvl 52 Golmoro can drop at max item rarity a 6* Last Survivour, however it also can drop 5* ripper, 4* sucker, 3* stinger, 2* knife, and 1* Dagger. The lower the rarity the lower higher chance it might drop. You might end the mission with only 4* and 5* daggers, but they could have a good %, thus value, or you could just sell them and earn money for you time slaying those creatures.

I hadn't even thought about how much PSU was lacking in the sci-fi department or just how bland it was when I wrote this. I forget what them Shinow robots look like though. But, yeah. PSU definitely fell short. As far as music goes, I need only think about the title screens of both games and immediately think of PSO as having more of a sci-fi fantasy feel. Not all of pSU's music is that bad, I personally find the desert theme and much of Neudaiz's music very fitting. The kill-em-all mentality still remains though, and goaferboy hit the nail on the head as to why.

For items...well I have a very different view on items, which I'll put in a different post. What you posted on the daggers seems like a pretty good idea though.

On 2008-03-26 09:48, goaferboy wrote:
One thing I think that makes PSO more about exploration and PSU more about extermination is the storyline. In PSO, Pioneer 2 was sent after pioneer 1 went a bit FUBAR. So in PSO your actually there to explore and find out what happened.

In PSU, the planets are all established and there aren't really any uncharted areas.

Also in PSU, there isnt any hints of a story within the missions. I remember the missions in PSO being more "missioney" ie there was actually a bit of a story to the missions. I remember having to find a robot in the forest for example. In PSU, the closest thing you get to that is having to find a certain amount of discs. And even then, you could finish the level without actually having any of the discs.

I think the next PS game needs bigger maps. Or at least ones that take longer. Or some decent sort of story to them, not just show up, go to the end of block X and kill some stuff on the way. Actual objectives would be a plus.</font>

Thanks for reinforcing my points and wording them better. Quoted since it looks better than my wall of text.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jife_Jifremok on 2008-03-26 20:15 ]</font>

[Xefi]

On 2008-03-26 05:57, Jife_Jifremok wrote:
correct me if I'm wrong but the general concensus seems to be that PSO's world and atmosphere are better but PSU's gameplay is better.



Interesting. I know that PSO have a much better enviroments due to the fact that they are small in size and easy to navigate. PSU environments, however, are mostly bland and broad enough that you dont really care (ST is slowly improving on the stages now, i am just hoping it will only get better later on).
As for gameplay, PSO have the better mechanic and style, but lack mobility at time: hit and then move and then run, basically, the combat system was slow. But in PSU, the battle system was better because you can actually move faster and hit and run at the same time.
As of now, PSU is still lacking in certain categories (environments, gliches, maybe more improvement on battle like guns improvement system and etc.), but give it some more time for it to developed. I guess that is all we can do right now is to give ideas to improve the game, but I am very certain PSU will improve massively later on. Right now, it is not enough to blow us away.

[Mewnie]

I'd talked with this with some friends a bit ago...

I'd like to see something more like how Guild Wars handles it's instanced areas.

They're both similar, in they have public lobbies where you can shop/chat/spam and instances for when you team up for some action.
So you'd have a whole planet to explore, with side areas for quests/missions/dungeons.

It'd bring back the feeling of exploring a whole system, instead of a few sporadic locations on the map.

[Eidolus_Dyne]

First of all I just gotta say I love this topic. I just have to throw my opinion out there because I've been thinking about this a while.



As for gameplay, PSO have the better mechanic and style, but lack mobility at time: hit and then move and then run, basically, the combat system was slow. But in PSU, the battle system was better because you can actually move faster and hit and run at the same time.


I like what you said here... let me build on it.

PSU and PSO are built on a platform of a mixture of Action and RPG, everyone who plays pretty much knows this. It's my hope that with more and more installments the series builds more on it's strengths in the action department. Compared to solid action titles, PSU doesn't hold a candle... just saying. It's not Devil May Cry or God of War, by any means.

I don't expect Sonic Team to make PSU into something comparable to an online action adventure, but if someone were to make an online action adventure (taking strains of online FPS games and Zelda-esque game play) PSU's triumphs and follies definitely make perfect model to improve upon. In theory. Also, I'm talking strictly game play at this moment.

You pointed out that the difference bewteen PSO and PSU's game play was the improvement in control. PSO was stiff and awkward, with the inability to move while attacking making evasion a trick feat. PSU made this type of game play smoother, improved for sure, but ultimately falls short in one major area. Evasion, it's easier. You still have to watch your enemies movements to anticipate attacks and reading the enemies movements is clearer, but it requires a LOT more foresight than DMC or GoW. Those games are more twitchy, every second determines a win or a loss. There's always room to make a mistake in those types of single player action games, but they also give you enough control to dodge or correct a mistake at a moments notice. Player controlled evasive and defensive maneuvers for all types of character classes would be fantastic.

I play as melee classes (FiGu, WarT, and FF) in PSU because they lean closer to this type of balanced game play. Where attack and evade are more under my control. Tornado Dance and that new Aoti twin claw PA (the swimming one) come to mind immediately.

I also have a bone to pick about the lack of ingenuity of game play put into Ranger and Force classes. If I'm going to wield a huge arsenal of beam weapons or the forces of nature, I better well feel like I'm doing it. These classes should make you think about the battle and environment totally different than a Melee class character would. Think about the last Zelda game you played. When you're half way through a dungeon and get the next power up, suddenly you see things differently... that tell-tale hook-shot target on the wall means a lot more to you now than it did to you previously. That's the type of difference I would prefer.

Casts in PSO were neat like that, they could see traps and it helped create jobs in battle for each player. That's a really weak example though... to be honest I would much rather have a greater difference. Like if Forces operated on a slightly different plane of existence than others, could see and manipulate photons in the air and moved within and interacted with the environment differently than the other classes. Putting this idea into action within the already existing constructs of PSU would put some things into jeopardy, like the "between" job classes. But hey, I'm not really talking about PSU specifically.

On top of this type of game play differentiation, PSO and PSU's player to player interaction is severely lacking. It should mean a lot more to me when a four party team splits into two, who goes with who should mean a lot more. And... what I'm about to say next is assuming that we're talking about an ideal online action adventure game with jumping, evasion, and severely differentiated class based game play. So, what I'm suggesting is giving another character a leg up beyond a stat boost or HP recover. Why not a physical leg up, like climbing/jumping up to a higher place, or something...

I know a lot of you really like your RPG based goals and achievements, but coming from a guy who knocked the living daylights out of every difficulty on Devil May Cry 3, skill based achievements are thoroughly more rewarding. RPG goals to date are simply cheap. Yeah I said it. Cheap. Frequently they remind me of some kind of Gumball/Capsule Machine that eats time instead of money. This game play mechanic lends to players putting more hours in compulsively, not voluntarily, not because they're genuinely having fun. Though I admit completing goals feels good, great even.

But this kind of "put your hours in for a reward dispensed at random" system feels way too much like going to work. Where's the humanity, the "play" involved. Specifically Castlevania: Symphony of the Night comes to mind. There are people who play the game for challenges, making up their own rules to follow to complete a challenge. "Unarmed Master of Combat" is one, where you play the game with absolutely no equipment or power ups. Or the game where you use Alucard's double jump down kick attack to jump off candles and the heads of zombies to get from one side of the first hall of the castle without touching the floor.

There's little to no room in PSU at the moment for this kind of play. Yes I am familiar with using a dedicated low level character to play the party missions for higher difficulty. Creating an in game reward system outside of making the entire game about play (ala games like Little Big Planet or games that support modding or level editing) would be fiercely difficult without making the challenges and rewards feel systematic. So make gameplay that feels like play. The Key is lots of choices for the player. "Do it like this or like that, whatever your preferences" kind of out look. The party missions in PSU are a prime example of "DO NOT" for choices, a challenge doesn't have to have only one solution to be hard.

If a game developer is going to go about making an online action adventure style game minus the RPG reward systems, there's something to consider... how do you create goals without them? To answer that I want to propose a hypothetical scenario. What would PSU look like without it's RPG elements? The first change would be no levels... simply because skill is the determining factor when it comes to overcoming an obstacle. But wait, looking back on Devil May Cry, doesn't Dante upgrade his weapons and skills via accumulated devil blood? Devil blood which is essentially EXP?! It's still a skill based game, but uses leveling as a small buffer for players who have yet to fully develop their skills and need a small pick me up for each new challenge.

So if you're going to use this mechanic in a scenario where multiple players compete against each other (both co-operatively and versus) and time isn't an issue because players will put as many hours in as necessary (as demonstrated by all those WoW obsessed gamers) you have to put a limit on the mechanic. Players will always want to customize their characters to suit their unique play style, even within a specific character class. So why not give them 10 levels? Each one can be used to upgrade a set of very simple stats. I say simple because once you subtract the random factor involved in RPG based game play, there's no need for stats like accuracy or evasion... only HP, SP, attack, and defense. (put simply) They can distribute these level upgrades however they want, but they get no more and no less. In addition you incorporate a system of tests to determine the level of skills a player has with a specific character class. Each grade giving the player more level upgrades to use, but not going beyond 30. It could be used to create a ranking system used by players to find players with a similar level of skill. This stat difference could also be temporarily downgraded so that players with a higher ranking can still play in a low rank game with low rank players. Which gives rise to a more specific question, what would players play for if not for "the grind"? If they run a mission, it should be for fun and challenge. Let's look at non online games for some ideas? How about some survival horror?! Almost like endless nightmare, players compete to stay alive in a uniquely dangerous situation where your very life is on the line! More than that, what if another challenge was added... like you're stuck in a maze like level with a randomly generated layout, so you have to get out with your life, not defeat every opponent. It's a small variation on PSU's standard, and for those of us who've beaten the last mission of episode 2's story line it isn't entirely impossible to pull off in PSU's game play. Still I'm describing a scenario with a small amount of give. I imagine only three main character classes with only 10-30 levels of stat differentiation, the players are going to want more than that.

So what has me thinking is... abilities. For everyone out there who has played Kirby Super Star for the SNES, abilities can be a big deal. Why doesn't a brand new sword mean more than just a reskinned sword we've had from the beginning. Why doesn't it mean getting a whole new vision for how to attack a situation. PAs are nearly close to being what I'm talking about here, but not nearly enough. They're way to limited, you can't use every double saber PA you own on one double saber... which if you could would make the game a million times better. But my point is, if you treat PAs like abilities the game doesn't let you have enough pick between them mid battle. There's no PA combos between multiple PAs. If I'm going to switch weapons it better mean something. So my proposal is create a series of side abilities beyond the core sets that come with the 3 main classes, each set with their own moves and stuff. I'm not just thinking in terms of confrontational battle-y stuff. Where's my portal gun eh? Where's my abilities that double as combative weapons and puzzle solving tools?! I think anyone who's played any action Adventure games know what I'm talking about, Samus, Kirby, Link, Jak (and Daxter), and Ratchet (and Clank) have arsenals that do more than just kick ass (some more than others).

The thing I like best about PSU is it's getting closer to closing the gap between PSO and my idea of an ideal online gaming experience. It's got Action elements that are nearly overbearing on it's RPG elements...

What do you guys think? Do you still want your RPG BS when you know there's a theoretically better alternative when it comes to co-operative multiplayer adventures? This isn't really about ideas to make PSU better. (Just using PSU/PSO as a model) Because we all know we have absolutely no control over PSU's prodction. What I'm suggesting is about raising awareness of choice of games.

If you don't read my whole post, nevermind.

[icewyrm]

Single player action games work because they are single player. Fast based, challenging multiplayer games are always highly localised.

One of the major problems with skill based gameplay, is that latency forces players to compete only with other players close enough to them geographically and or topologically that they can play on level ground. The reason why almost all massive (or lobby/instance based) online games all have similar gameplay mechanics and focus on collecting things or levelling up as rewards, is that these gameplay mechanics:

-Require low amounts of bandwidth, since small amounts of information per character are needed to describe player interactions with other players, NPCs or their environment
-Are easy to play, and thus appeal to a broad age group and general audience
-Aren't affected too heavily by latency, meaning that a single server location can service many different geographical areas, and once again appeal to the broadest audience possible.

Generally these games are also aimed at mid or low end computers, and skimp on whatever calculations (such as detailed physics models and complicated AI scripting) wherever they can.

So basically Eidolus_Dyne, while I like the direction you're thinking in, I don't believe that current large scale online gaming developers would be interested in making such a product, because it probably wouldn't make enough money. If one did come along, I'd certainly give it a whirl though.

I think this sort of gameplay is better suited to local co-op play, myself. Nothing like co-op with a friend in the same room.

[Blueblur]

Some excellent points have been made. I'm actually quite surprised to read some of the statements made in this thread because they're very similar to comments I've made to my friends concerning PSO Vs. PSU.

Something that hasn't been said is the problem with PSU's stages themselves. Because the missions are mostly structured like a killfest, the levels themselves have wide open spaces but funnel you down only one path. And as we all know, each block of a stage is identical except for the map layout. How is there going to be any exploration when each section of a stage is identical to the last and limited to a going down one set path??

PSU tries to replicate PSO's "exploration" by adding in field lobbies that make it feel as if you progressing but ultimately they lead to a dead end. And you only spend a few moments in a field lobby before taking on the next repetitious mission. Where's the progress there?

At least in PSO, the aesthetics of a stage changed as you progressed. Cave 1 had its own distinct style, Cave 2 was completely different, and Cave 3 was its own stage. As you progressed you were treated to different visuals and very different map layouts. Unlike in PSU where they just swap the colors of a stage and call it a completely different thing on a completely different planet (Linear Line and Metro Platform is a great example of this).

The different field lobbies and Hell, the different planets and their cities, just serve to separate players from other players. It essentially splits up the population of players making sometimes impossible to get a party together for a mission in a certain area because no one else happens to be in one of the final lobbies on Moatoob, for example.

PSO had a much more organic feel overall because you had one city, the different rooms in the city had no load times and it was very easy to start any mission because they all started at one counter. Now, PSU is seemingly a bigger game but what it really is a bloated game. There's a lot of filler thrown that makes it very different. While PSO is on of end of the spectrum (small city, a handful of stages, one mission counter, one shop area) PSU is on the other end (4 cities, at least 18 shops, about 30 mission counters lobbies). A perfect game would be somewhere around the middle of the spectrum.

I'm sure the different cities and lobbies purposely separate players to deal with bandwidth and the PS2's memory constraints but it just makes PSU a more barren experience.

[icewyrm]

I think there are alot of problems that could be fixed simply by tweaks or small additions to the interface. For example, if you decided to run some missions on a particular planet, but wanted to find some randoms for a group; currently you would have to check every counter at every lobby on every universe. Why not provide a list of parties across the universes, and change to the desired universe automatically upon joining that mission?

Indeed, a simple in game tool that showed currently open games across all counters, universes and planets, even if there was no option to directly join the game, would make make it so much easier to find any other lone players looking for some company. Even with the PC/PS2s lower population, I think this would be a huge improvement over simply spamming every card in your partner list to try and find someone to run something other than white beast with.

Another thing that makes the game seem very empty is that there are no global communication channels. While I love the cut-in-chat system and other features, a global text based chat channel would be really neat, something you could fire up and quickly participate in, something that would provide ample proof that other players are active and doing things, and that you are a part of something, rather than feeling like some kind of lone exterminator going out for another job.

I guess what I am trying to get across, is that there are many minor improvements which could be made which would not require significant alterations to game data or new content, that would significantly improve online player experiences.

[panzer_unit]

Remember having to "travel" to the mission you wanted to do by doing all the missions along the way? I sort of miss that, except for how much a pain in the ass it would be to get your luck redone, or your casino coin.

It would have been cool to do "travel" missions, featuring one block matching each area you go through... with an option of exiting to the corresponding lobby... moatoob desert, mountains, mines; parum meadow, lakeshore, undersea base.

PSU desperately needs to show you the areas you do missions in from the OUTSIDE. From the start and end blocks of missions... and in field lobbies... you need to be able to SEE something of the areas you were just in, and you're going to.

That's what made HIVE and especially Rykros so dissappointing. Remember the stupid cutscene where you fly from Clyez to the other planets? I WANT one for approaching HIVE and Rykros. Then I want to see the damned SPACESHIP I just got out of in the first room of block 1 for those missions. I'd like the field lobbies to be something besides a chunk of mission-area too.

Mission paths could be used more creatively as well.
Clyez spaceport ->
HIVE 1 (secure a field base area! free for all fight) ->
HIVE lobby 1 (resupply at the field base, which was made thanks to your efforts) ->
HIVE 2 (retake the A-Photon reactor chamber) ->
HIVE lobby 2 (departure area... get to da choppa) ->
Clyez lobby (Dallgun viewing area)

[icewyrm]

Yeah, without cutscenes and mapping to show where you are going and where you've been, everything has a very disjointed and disconnected feeling from one area to the next. I would like to see missions using the main city areas too, they did it in the single player missions, why not have some multiplayer ones?

[Sol_B4dguy]

I'm at least hoping that Rykros takes some mission design liberties and lets us actually explore it. But, seeing as Guardians are just called in for extermination and exploration is left to another group, ST probably won't do something that "ambitious". >_<

I'm mostly ok with PSU's fighting system, except for the PvE balance being VERY heavily on the players' side. If we actually had some challenging enemies to go with our new tweaks and gameplay mechanics, this wouldn't be a problem, but as it stands now, not even lvl 150 enemies are all that challenging.

Music is also a factor: I could listen to PSO's themes for a good while and not tire of them; PSU's is mostly boring (with the notable exception of Moa's desert sections and Rozenom). Music, heck, the whole game could use a healthy dose of more Sci-Fi; I wanted to play as Motavians, not beasts, dangit. >_<

Which brings me to a minor point: all the fleshy races are either human, or humans with funky ears / one or two distinguishing facial features compared to humans. Is it too much to ask to play as some actual aliens in a sci-fi RPG?

That's all I can think of that hasn't really been said already in this thread. Hopefully ST won't fail nearly as much with the next expansion/new Phantasy Star as they did with this.

[DoubleZero]

It was a little foolish of me to think after completing Nest of Darkness and landing on Rykros, I would be treated to a sprawling countryside of green astroturf littered with colorful translucent crystals. Perhaps in my wildest PSIV-fueled dreams, but not on PSU.

When I first heard about Universe, I was excited. I saw Floaders, hoverboards and transports. I thought we were getting three different worlds to explore, where vast distances would be covered by zipping around on hovercrafts, Hydrofoils and Ice Diggers. I thought for a moment that this was PSO II, and we were going to explore a colonized ragol, inside and out. What we got, were series of instanced missions and lobbies. It's not bad... It really feels like PSO, in the sense that we're going from screen to screen rather than running around in an actual world.

That... and I miss jumping. I like jumping in my 3d games.

[zandra117]

I want bigger, less linear maps, I want to get totally lost in a mission area. I want multiple paths through missions. I want hidden secrets. I want PSO episode 5 for nextgen consoles. I want a good hack and slash fighting system like .hack//GU. I want skills to have situational advantages in combat rather than skils having damage advantages because of a higher star rating.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zandra117 on 2008-03-27 19:12 ]</font>

[lostinseganet]

It is my hope for 16 player coop. I cast my dreams into the nothingnessness of reality. Serious Sam was just so much fun. Oh an a jump option, dash, and evade.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: lostinseganet on 2008-03-27 20:19 ]</font>

[Blueblur]

In my opinion, four players was the sweet spot. I think PSU overdoes it with 6.

[Blueblur]

On 2008-03-27 06:14, icewyrm wrote:
Indeed, a simple in game tool that showed currently open games across all counters, universes and planets, even if there was no option to directly join the game, would make make it so much easier to find any other lone players looking for some company. Even with the PC/PS2s lower population, I think this would be a huge improvement over simply spamming every card in your partner list to try and find someone to run something other than white beast with.

If there were only a handful of counters, you wouldn't need such a tool. Imagine how easier it would be to find missions if the space port on the fourth floor of the Colony were counters for missions on each of the planets? You wouldn't have all these extraneous lobbies and shops and everything could be on the Colony in one simple place. I would prefer that over PSU's 30-something lobby design.

[Gama]

my idea is vry simple. mantai character creation or improve it with more stuff, use pso battle sistem where weps and techs didnt lag, make a biguer pallete or give an optio to have pso stile palete or psu palete then just make levels like they did on pso i think pso level are good enougth , cool graphics cant do it all. pso was adicting psu lacks on tht. allot.

[icewyrm]

On 2008-03-27 20:24, Blueblur wrote:
If there were only a handful of counters, you wouldn't need such a tool. Imagine how easier it would be to find missions if the space port on the fourth floor of the Colony were counters for missions on each of the planets? You wouldn't have all these extraneous lobbies and shops and everything could be on the Colony in one simple place. I would prefer that over PSU's 30-something lobby design.


The thing is, they could leave all of the current lobbies if they wanted to, and just add the extra functionality on top. And a handful of counters (say 4) that showed all the currently active missions on each planet/space station, is pretty close to what I was suggesting. They have plenty of options for presenting information and choices to players, hell they could add an option from your room computer where you could search all currently active missions and that could work wonderfully.


On 2008-03-27 20:35, Gama wrote:
my idea is vry simple. mantai character creation or improve it with more stuff, use pso battle sistem where weps and techs didnt lag, make a biguer pallete or give an optio to have pso stile palete or psu palete then just make levels like they did on pso i think pso level are good enougth , cool graphics cant do it all. pso was adicting psu lacks on tht. allot.

I understand where you're coming from, but I gotta say, I would hate to lose:
-Just Attack
-Just Counter
-Specialized weapon PAs, IE more than standard and heavy attacks.
-PP Regen on melee hit weapons
-Onhand and offhand weapons
-The ability to level PAs of whatever type, rather than just warping backwards and forwards for hours on end to try and find them in a shop.

I'm sure theres more I haven't listed, but I feel these are all improvements over combat in PSO. As for laggy pallette switching, I think alot of that is do to with the fact that the interface is more server side then it was in PSO (and obviously problems with the PS2s loading speed and such come into it). In terms of techs lagging out, that really requires some optimization, detail scaling is incredibly important for ensuring smooth gameplay, especially on an older console like the PS2 :/

[Jife_Jifremok]

On 2008-03-27 04:07, icewyrm wrote:
Single player action games work because they are single player. Fast based, challenging multiplayer games are always highly localised.

One of the major problems with skill based gameplay, is that latency forces players to compete only with other players close enough to them geographically and or topologically that they can play on level ground. The reason why almost all massive (or lobby/instance based) online games all have similar gameplay mechanics and focus on collecting things or levelling up as rewards, is that these gameplay mechanics:


That didn't stop Capcom from making Monster Hunter much more skill-based than PSU. Hell, I hadn't even suffered much from lag, and almost NEVER died when I was lagging! I even have a LAGFEST Four Horns story to tell, but I aint getting into that.

Eidolus_Dyne for the most part summed up much of what I would like to see in the evolution of online RPGs. What we need is a company with the stones to pull it off. Capcom's taken a huge step in the right direction with Monster Hunter...

---


ANYWAY.
I could easily pull a basic story out of my ass where colony ship(s) flee from home planet(s) and have begun colonizing a new system, having already established a few towns in various places. That right there makes for easy inclusion of both uncharted areas to explore and established areas that could serve as mission-based slaughtering grounds. Now if there would be well-made maps, fun objectives (for the mission areas), and good music that can suit both styles (ie DON'T use desert extermination mission song for the exploration of a similar desert area!), we'd be getting somewhere.

Now, about items...it's time to ditch that "rare items should only be for the lucky, that's why they're called rare" mentality that's been plaguing the online RPG scene for over a decade. Just have SOME items be rare and requiring luck, and those should be the ONLY items to call "rares". There should be lots of GOOD stuff to be occasionally sold in stores, made by players (if there's a crafting system), and EARNED BY ACHIEVEMENT. If they're rare, it's because of being limited-time-only or because their acquisition requirement is just that hard to accomplish. The really good items need true effort and not just luck. Also, item drops from enemies should actually make sense. If an enemy uses a weapon, said weapon should drop fairly commonly. If it has horns, said horns shouldn't be so damn hard to get (not counting the difficulty of fighting the monster, mind you). I can pull some examples out of my ass later to illustrate my point, but I'm short on time.

Next I'll probably talk about Classic Phantasy, overall combat and races.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jife_Jifremok on 2008-03-27 23:36 ]</font>

[icewyrm]

On 2008-03-27 23:35, Jife_Jifremok wrote:
That didn't stop Capcom from making Monster Hunter much more skill-based than PSU. Hell, I hadn't even suffered much from lag, and almost NEVER died when I was lagging! I even have a LAGFEST Four Horns story to tell, but I aint getting into that.


Never tried monster hunter, heard from a few mates that it was fun though. Similar lobby system to ps online games? And was char data stored server side or client side? And did you ever play with people outside the US?