AotI: Why don't more ATs debuff?

[zeroguy518]

I'm just curious as to why I don't see any ATs debuffing. It gets them hits in and it doesn't make me want to kill them for hitting the enemies across the screen with PAs. Not to mention more damage for everyone else is prolly better than them doing a bit.



I'm a fortetecher though so I would rather fall back on a 1 star saber than a debuff rod if I had to, so I was just curious if the debuffs are way to underpowered to make this a good idea, or If people are just oblivious to this strategy.

[daniel_drago]

In all honesty the game is too easy that Debuffs are unnecessary. others may disagree. Debuffs do roughtly the same as Buffs but obviously in the negatives roughtly -25%. They last a good 2 mintues less as well which is still more than loing enough to get the job done.

For leveling speed I'm not aware of it could be that they take so long to level that people are put off using them as the game is quite easy anyway its would be pointless to waste so much time trying to make it even easier.

[zeroguy518]

Yeah I guess, I wish ST would make this game a bit harder though, I hate how they made it so easy to level and such, not to mention their way of "rebalancing" the game is to make anything anyone complains to be a little challenging ridiculously easier. *cough* Monster Speed on S2 *cough*

[icewyrm]

The problem is that in most cases an acrotecher will help to kill monsters faster just by spamming gi or ra techs. I actually did some testing on this myself... the damage from attack techs was higher than the benefit gained from debuffs for the entire party. This could be different for other techer classes, but that's what I found when I was playing acrotecher.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: icewyrm on 2008-04-03 07:30 ]</font>

[Arika]

because enemies die too fast.
if they dont last long enough, debuff just doesn't worth to use.

it will be more useful in rank S3, hopefully.

[ThEoRy]

On 2008-04-03 07:33, Arika wrote:
because enemies die too fast.
if they dont last long enough, debuff just doesn't worth to use.

it will be more useful in rank S3, hopefully.


this.

[desturel]

If I debuff or not depends on the mission, my class, who I'm running with and what weapons I'm using. Most things die really quickly due to their relative level to our characters, so it's not really worthwhile to debuff. The reason many acrotechers don't do it is that it takes away from of offensive options, doesn't always apply on the first cast, and costs a good amount of PP.

48 at level 21
56 at level 31

If I'm going to Debuff it is usually on a Guntecher where the rod/tech mag does not double as my main weapon. On a guntecher I can have a setup with:

Cubo Tuma / Majimura (male neuman so I can't use magical wand)

Where the majimura is used for debuff/resta and the xbow is used for damage. Having the debuff on the majimura doesn't take away from the damage I can potentially do with the xbow, plus the PP used with the debuff has time to regen since the xbow has a good PP reserve.

Card / Wand
Xbow / Wand
Handgun / Wand

All of these options allow me to debuff and have a large reserve main weapon after.

On the other hand as an acrotecher I have:

Mag / Saber
Mag / Dagger
Handgun / Wand
Mag / Wand

Say I use a Coni/Blackheart combo (actually this is my normal combo if I am using debuffs on my acro). Blackheart with Rising Strike (20) and Coni with Zalure and Rabarta.

Zalure costing 48 PP takes away from how many times I can cast rebarta, limiting my offensive output. Blackheart doesn't have a PP reserve large enough to be your main offensive weapon as an acrotecher. It's mainly to keep larger mobs on their side and off of your back. Because of this you will run out of PP quicker and it will cost you more in the long run. Also because Zalure counts as an ice spell, if there are any non fire mob around, you may need to change the spell paired with Zalure to match the mob. So it could be Zalure/Diga or Zalure/Zonde meaning you lose the elemental bonus.

If could also pair debuffs together with Jellen/Zalure on a madoog, but that leaves you with a setup that you need to switch back and forth to instead of one you can keep for all offensive options.

Jellen/Zalure Doric + Ground Blackheart for doing Lightning Beasts for example, it's a great combo for fighting the Gainozeros and Grass Assassin, but lacks for every other enemy on the stage. Bajilla die to quickly. Shagreece, and Jarba are melee resistant.

Anyway, I don't think I could clearly explain without more detailed examples of the situations you run into as acrotecher, but I'll show you my debuff palette as a guntecher vs my debuff palette as acrotecher which should help explain things a bit:

Guntecher:

Shato (buffs) / Cometarac (Buffs)
Cubo Tuma / Cometarac (Giresta / Reverser)
Twin Tornado
Cubo Tuma / Cometarac (Resta / Debuff)
Storm / Buccaneer or Blumier (rising or shunbu for the quick knock over)
Mira-Kikami / Majimura (Resta / Random maybe debuff maybe attack tech)

As a guntecher I always have access to Resta for the group, but it doesn't slowdown my offense. I might replace the Storm/Buccaneer or Twin Tornado with a Degahna Cannon, Shigga Bines, or Rikauteri soon to be rifle when the update rolls around)

Acrotecher:

Doric (buffs) / Cometarac (Buffs)
Doric (Debuffs) / Blackheart
Dori (Giresta / Reverser) / Uransara (attack techs)
Storm / Whip (depends on the area which whip I use. I don't pair whips with magic as sometimes it's difficult to stop the whip combo to heal as in you'll go to heal and accidentally go to the second part of the combo. Better to switch spots)
Coni (Resta/attack tech) / Uransara (attack techs)
Arb Boa


With the acrotecher I have to sacrifice a spot where I would normally put a single element coni for extra attack damage with a debuff spot. It cuts into how much offense I can put out at any given time as Uransara tends to run out of juice pretty quickly when using the larger attack techs. Depending on the run I may swap out the Arb Boa for twin dagger (Hishou or Renga) or I might need to swap it out for more attack techs.

I'm already carrying at least 12 weapons that I need to swap out given the situation as an acrotecher. Putting debuffs into the palette adds another weapon that may need to swap out. There's just not enough situations where debuffs are useful currently that I want to go through the extra hassle of trying to squeeze them in.

As a guntecher since they don't interfere with anything I'm doing, I don't ever have to carry more than 4 wands at any time. All of the extra weapons I carry are for specific missions/creatures and are usually optional.

[pikachief]

I leveled up all my de buffs PRE-AOI then i started using them and sadly i found out...

buy the time i sent out 2 debuffs everything was already dead :/

There was absolutely no point in my debuffs >.<

Also people have been saying that they might've nerfed De-buffs, because i have actually noticed that i dont do that much more damage at all when a monster is defense debuffed :/

[desturel]

On 2008-04-03 08:17, pikachief wrote:
Also people have been saying that they might've nerfed De-buffs, because i have actually noticed that i dont do that much more damage at all when a monster is defense debuffed :/


Nah, as an acrotecher running solo on Lightning beasts I normally do about 100~200 more damage to a debuffed Gainozeros vs a non-debuffed one. The only problem is that they die so quickly that that extra 100~200 damage doesn't really mean much. Like I said, if I don't have to change weapons to do it like with a guntecher then it's not a problem, but since I have to swap weapons to do it as an acrotecher, it's not really worth the time invested.

[icewyrm]

Debuffs would be more useful if they were ranged technics like RA spells. At least then you wouldnt have to run into the middle of a fight to tag with them ;D

[Sekani]

The only time I've found debuffs to be worthwhile are on lower-level characters. If you're running an S2 mission with a small party at the minimum level they can make life easier.

At level 100+ though there is really no point, for reasons already stated.

[zeroguy518]

So anyone know if Debuff's are getting buffed or nerfed anytime soon, and I heard a bit about S3's, have they been confirmed yet?

[Lighthero]

The only reason why I don't level/use debuffs is cuz it's as BORING as leveling buffs (takes long) and I don't wanna waste time on doing something like that, they're all 3 11+... I'd level it maybe sometime but I rather level some attack techs instead.

And, using ra-/gi- spells does enough damage, with just a madoog (my freakin grinded pegita's) you can do with level 25+-/30 ra spells 1k dmg a hit. I think it ain't that bad. And of course, the enemies die way too fast in order to make the debuffs usefull. Only on the big enemies would it work a little bit with a FEW people, since they don't die so fast...(not mentioning a party of 6, they're just DEAD, DEAD I say)

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Debuffs are mostly worthless.

Zoldeel is pointless because most meleers do not want to block, and ATA is never an issue anyway.
Zalure is pointless because the equation uses DFP/5, so you'll add maybe 15 damage per hit at most on the average enemy. Worthless.
Jellen is pointless because almost nothing hits hard enough for it to be an issue. Just take the hit and I'll Resta you.

[zeroguy518]

On 2008-04-03 10:55, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Debuffs are mostly worthless.

Zoldeel is pointless because most meleers do not want to block, and ATA is never an issue anyway.
Zalure is pointless because the equation uses DFP/5, so you'll add maybe 15 damage per hit at most on the average enemy. Worthless.
Jellen is pointless because almost nothing hits hard enough for it to be an issue. Just take the hit and I'll Resta you.



I think that sums up the whole topic, nicely done.

[EMPYREAN]

as mention be4, things dies way to fast for debuffs to make any difference.

[desturel]

On 2008-04-03 10:55, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Zoldeel is pointless because most meleers do not want to block, and ATA is never an issue anyway.


Zoldeel is good for deljaban, gaozoran, and Zamvapas. That's about the only time I see FF hitting more 0s than numbers. Of course for Deljaban, Jabroga solves all problems. Jabroga never misses. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Or you could just attack them from behind, but whatever.

[Syanaide]

On 2008-04-03 07:33, Arika wrote:
because enemies die too fast.
if they dont last long enough, debuff just doesn't worth to use.

it will be more useful in rank S3, hopefully.



Same problem with SEs too imo. Not too sure why people are still fanatics over them. Freeze, yeah, burn/virus, maybe.

[desturel]

On 2008-04-03 11:56, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Or you could just attack them from behind, but whatever.


It's no problem if "I'm" the fortefighter, but when I'm the techer I'll toss out the Zoldeel when I see one of my partners hitting one too many zeros so that they can go about mindlessly attacking. It's also the reason why I stunlock most large enemies with Regrants while the fortefighters go about applying the pain with Jabroga/Dugrega/Redda/Hishou/TD/Gravity Break/etc.

[Darius_Drake]

When I was an AT with my secondary character I would debuff during missions. I wouldn't debuff everything, but certain hard hitting creatures I would bring down their atp and def. I rarely used the other debuff. I am planning to use the masterforce now, so now I mostly ignore the debuffs since my support spells will be capped at 10.

[mvffin]

On 2008-04-03 11:55, desturel wrote:

On 2008-04-03 10:55, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Zoldeel is pointless because most meleers do not want to block, and ATA is never an issue anyway.


Zoldeel is good for deljaban, gaozoran, and Zamvapas. That's about the only time I see FF hitting more 0s than numbers.


or you could cast Dambarta/Rabarta/Gibarta which DON'T miss, and can freeze the enemy, making its evasion 0, AND causing it to sit still and not attack.

[desturel]

On 2008-04-03 15:14, mvffin wrote:

On 2008-04-03 11:55, desturel wrote:

On 2008-04-03 10:55, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
Zoldeel is pointless because most meleers do not want to block, and ATA is never an issue anyway.


Zoldeel is good for deljaban, gaozoran, and Zamvapas. That's about the only time I see FF hitting more 0s than numbers.


or you could cast Dambarta/Rabarta/Gibarta which DON'T miss, and can freeze the enemy, making its evasion 0, AND causing it to sit still and not attack.


They don't miss, but they also don't have a 100% chance of freezing. Better to go Protranser and hit them with the EX.

Also amazingly enough you can do the barta combination AFTER you've debuffed as well.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: desturel on 2008-04-03 15:23 ]</font>

[AngelanWM]

I remember a LONG time ago when the BEEZ of the Sealab were so Horrendous that either you abandoned to get the VOLFU map or you had to have at least two techers performing ZODEEL so that the Hunters could even CUT the BEEZ.

Also there was a time when a debuffed Vil De Bear was the only chance of scoring an S on Bruce's Dungeon as a friend would die in two hits rather than just one.

Now PSU is on easy mode and its a little annoying to see all that hard work be useless in the end. Maybe in S3 we will see the need for debuffing a gain as it is a staple of all RPGS. And it would add some challnege that PSU sorely lacks.

[Powder Keg]

Debuffs don't have that drastic of an effect to waste a weapon or two on. If debuffs were on the fly casting like they were in PSO, I'd probably be using them all the time like I used to with my FOmar.

[beatrixkiddo]

If DFP actually mattered, then Zalure might actually be useful. Jellen and Zoldeel have SOME potential spots where they could help, but not enough to make bothering with them worth it.

[ashley50]

debuffs are simply for tagging...
IMO

[desturel]

On 2008-04-03 15:23, AngelanWM wrote:
I remember a LONG time ago when the BEEZ of the Sealab were so Horrendous that either you abandoned to get the VOLFU map or you had to have at least two techers performing ZODEEL so that the Hunters could even CUT the BEEZ.


More often tho, the hunters and rangers would bitch until you abandoned for a map with no bees. Or the techer would laugh and cast diga while ignoring the cries of the hunters until every non-techer left the party. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Da_Wrecka]

The fact that debuffs often don't take first time doesn't help.

[Aries2384]

As an acrotecher, I do use Zalure. But mostly on the big spawns of small enemies like Ageeta/Badira/Sageeta. Mostly because They die so ridiculously fast between Slicers, Jabronies, ProT traps and nades. So a lvl 31 debuff has enough range for me to get a pack of 6 of them. My debuffs land pretty consistently anyway. I like my Exp. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't use debuffs.

[dc534]

Maybe they should make debuffs at lvl 4 work on major bosses, that we they will actually have a purpose. I think that would be a great idea I mean what else can AT do vs bosses other than keep the party alive, which none do well because theywould rather cast diga and do alot less than half the damage I do with a grenade launcher.

[BahnKnakyu]

* Debuffs don't always "stick". Monsters can resist them like any other SE. Some monsters are fucking stubborn, and the one monster that doesnt get debuffed is not considered tagged, so you have to keep spamming it until the monster gets hit by it.

* Debuffs take awhile to apply, see above reason. Even if you have J/Z on your Madoog and something on the right hand, it's not as instant access as it was in PSO.

* Debuffs are MUCH weaker than they were in PSO. They benefit you gain from debuffing stuff isn't as great as it was.

* Stuff dies too fast in a good party. You'll be scrambling to pull out your debuff wand while your party members knock the crap ou tof everything.

Mind you, I still use debuffs on big stuff and stuff that is a threat to the party - i.e. Jellening tech throwing monsters (why the hell does it work like that?) to reduce the amount of damage they do with their techs. J/Zing big stuff so party members don't take as much damage from them. Zodeel-ing monsters that are a pain in the ass to hit (Mizura), etc. Debuffs are more a utility now instead of a necessity like it was in PSO.

In other words, Sonic Team needs to buff, er, debuffs.

[mvffin]

On 2008-04-03 15:21, desturel wrote:
They don't miss, but they also don't have a 100% chance of freezing. Better to go Protranser and hit them with the EX.

Also amazingly enough you can do the barta combination AFTER you've debuffed as well.

ok, in a discussion about debuffing, you bring up PT? :facepalm:

the point is not to OMG FREEZE THEM NOW, its that debuffs are a waste of time, the time I spent debuffing things could be put to better use by simply killing them faster. and most techs have freeze 3, which hits often enough since the enemy STA nerf.



On 2008-04-03 19:12, dc534 wrote:
Maybe they should make debuffs at lvl 4 work on major bosses, that we they will actually have a purpose. I think that would be a great idea I mean what else can AT do vs bosses other than keep the party alive, which none do well because theywould rather cast diga and do alot less than half the damage I do with a grenade launcher.


whips do a decent amount of damage to bosses, so if no one's using duranga, I whip. Noszonde if they're in the air.

[desturel]

On 2008-04-03 21:24, mvffin wrote:

On 2008-04-03 15:21, desturel wrote:
They don't miss, but they also don't have a 100% chance of freezing. Better to go Protranser and hit them with the EX.

Also amazingly enough you can do the barta combination AFTER you've debuffed as well.

ok, in a discussion about debuffing, you bring up PT? :facepalm:


A facepalm coming from the person who suggests using dambarta on a Zamvapas? Now I've seen everything.

My point is, why waste your time trying to freeze it and getting run over. If you want to do the most damage to it grab megid, dammegid or ramegid. Out of those Megid is the safest and has the best chance of hitting.

If you want to have it frozen, use a trapping class.

Dambarta has the same problem that dammegid has with hitting it. It runs around far too much and doesn't stay frozen for long. On average the fortefigher will get one extra attack from freezing it with an ice spell where as with Zoldeel, they will get as many as needed.

Try running a duo with a fortefighter leveling dugrega and you'll find out which enemies have good enough evasion to cause problems. Zamvapas is one of those enemies.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

And even then, it wouldn't be an issue if the fF were using a good PA.

I don't know about you guys, but I have no problems tearing up a Zamvapas with Hikai on my AT. With a Zamvapas, EVP isn't the problem, DFP is.

[Astarin]

On 2008-04-03 21:24, BahnKnakyu wrote:
A bunch of good stuff that's true.



I agree. I generally only use debuffs to override monster buffs (Gainozeros' Shifta comes to mind) and to power down certain large enemies, if they're taking a while to kill. In normal situations, they're barely noticable (adding maybe 30/hit under Zalure, for example).

[ErtaiClou]

Debuffs work weird on the Gainozeros in the Egg thieves mission in my experience.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2008-04-03 22:38, ErtaiClou wrote:
Debuffs work weird on the Gainozeros in the Egg thieves mission in my experience.

You mean they live long enough to be debuffed?

[ErtaiClou]

On 2008-04-03 22:54, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:

On 2008-04-03 22:38, ErtaiClou wrote:
Debuffs work weird on the Gainozeros in the Egg thieves mission in my experience.

You mean they live long enough to be debuffed?

They live longer when debuffed, great training.

[desturel]

On 2008-04-03 22:23, Ffuzzy-Logik wrote:
And even then, it wouldn't be an issue if the fF were using a good PA.

I don't know about you guys, but I have no problems tearing up a Zamvapas with Hikai on my AT. With a Zamvapas, EVP isn't the problem, DFP is.


Dugrega is a good PA, but it takes a while to level to 40 so he uses it on everything (38 currently). DFP isn't a problem for Redda, Dugrega or Jabroga, but missing is. Since Jabroga doesn't miss that's not a problem. Dugrega and Redda do miss.

[-Chilly]

In a good team, stuff usually dies before you get the chance to debuff. White Beast...

[EspioKaos]

As much as I hate to say it, there really isn't much of a point to debuffs anymore. I used to use them during missions fairly regularly, but I eventually realized that I was wasting my time because (1) I'd have to cast a debuff multiple times in an attempt to get it to stick and (2) generally everything was dead or quite nearly dead before I'd even finished casting a few debuffs. I went for a while where I'd Jellen Go Vahras to take the edge off of their attacks, but now I don't even have to do that. I'm better off using Nosdiga and Resta.

Thinking back, I believe the last time someone ever asked me to use a debuff was during the Winter Event. And only on SEED-Magashi. Other than than... I can't think of any other cases.

[Poncho_Jr]

The Guardians missions would like to have a word with you...
Mainly Bruce. =/

[Darius_Drake]

On 2008-04-04 08:31, Poncho_Jr wrote:
The Guardians missions would like to have a word with you...
Mainly Bruce. =/



What was really needed for Bruce was an IQ buff.

[Weeaboolits]

This reminds me, why don't we have a retier debuff?

[Akaimizu]

This is pretty true. Even though I've worked on Debuffs as well, they definitely take a back seat in usefulness in comparison to the others. In some cases, it's almost as if they don't do anything for you; but they do have use. Some of the others have pointed out cases where you can make use of them, but it is quite limited, as of now.

Maybe, in the future, debuffs will improve (something I'm hoping to take advantage of if they do). Right now, the most useful (though there are other occassions) one I use is Jellen. Certain specific monsters lose much of their danger from getting hit by one. Especially ones that rely on multi-hit to do their good overall damage. Stuff like the Tornado Spin done by the Bil De Vears. (One of the reasons I love them so much). At times, it turns stuff like my Beast NPCs from one who stupidly gets themselved killed to being very well alive and almost ready to Beast on our foes.

I also note the times I use a debuff simply to strip enemy buffs that cast them.

Of course, I'm still waiting for the Ultimate Debuff. The opposite of Retier. The TP/MST down debuff. A potential killer debuff even at low level.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2008-04-04 13:52 ]</font>

[Ryno]

all my debuffs are already lv 40 including zodeel
( showing off ) http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[MelanyKoura]

IMO, they are useful, but only if you're training lowbies and they need more kick than +31 buffs. Hence the debuffs. I find them okay at high levels for the fact that I'm only with (at the most) about 3 other people at a time.

Of course, I only have two debuffs; Jellen and Zalure. I only use them if something is getting annoying in resistance or still hitting a little hard. Otherwise it's buffs only. *shrug*

[Winter_of_uno]

inb4everybodyrealizesthatmobsdieway2fastanyway

[Yunfa]

On 2008-04-06 00:17, Winter_of_uno wrote:
inb4everybodyrealizesthatmobsdieway2fastanyway



You're 4 pages too late, anywaz while it is true mobs die really fast, as an Acrotecher I enjoy suporting more than being offensive. All my techs are maxed out so, I dont really care what tech I use. Lvl 40 debuffs are pretty flashy than lvl 30 ra or gi spells. Plus its MUCH easier to tag enemies with debuffs, the range is pretty big. I have to say altho my Zoldeel is at 40, its not on my wands.