Stop buying M rated games for your kids [Archive]

rogue_robot

May 8, 2008, 02:06 PM

On 2008-05-08 09:27, ABDUR101 wrote:
I'm waiting for the game dev/publisher to issue a counter-lawsuit against these fuckheads that buy mature games for their kids. Buying alcohol for minors is illegal, and selling a mature game to a minor isn't allowed; so why not counter-sue the parents/guardians who are going off the handle and issueing 'bans' on certain games?

"My kid played this and then went and hurt somebody, lawsuit!"
"You bought your kid an m-rated game when they don't fit that bracket? Counter-lawsuit bitch, aswell as a check-in from child protective services from time to time to see just how good of a parent you really are since you can't read what equals a fucking warning label on a gamebox."

To every parent that buys their kid a mature or 'adult oriented' game and then bitches about the content; go give your kid a bottle of bleach to suck down and see what happens to your ass when the state finds out it was your fault. QQ bitches.

Amen to that. My father never actually had to worry about this with me as I, of my own volition, didn't bother with T-rated games until I was around 11 or 12 (Skies of Arcadia, Grandia II), and M-rated games until I was 17 (Halo - by this point, the T and M ratings were already starting to be overused, and many M-rated games of the present were analogous to the T-rated games of the past).

...largely, this was because, as a kid, I had an "M for Moron" attitude. Many games rated above my age-range generally came off as being tailored for people even less mature than my little kid self anyway.

SStrikerR

May 8, 2008, 02:22 PM

Well, I wasn't allowed to get T rated games till about 11 years old, and even then my mom didn't like them. I was allowed to get my first M rated game-RE4-When I was 12 because I'm a lot more mature than other kids, plus my friends all had it and i played it all the time anyway. Plus there's no way in hell i'd be stupid enough to try and do something I saw in a game. -_-

Raine_Loire

May 8, 2008, 02:31 PM

On 2008-05-08 10:21, Kylie wrote:
If or when I'm a momma, there's no chance of Hell that I'm buying my kids that are under thirteen m-rated games or stuff like that. If they're over thirteen and show some maturity, then I might let them play them. I was sixteen or fifteen when I started playing Resident Evil. I played Mortal Kombat even before then, and I think I came out fine (debatable maybe http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif). But who knows. Maybe laws and society will change before I have kids.

[ This Message was edited by: Kylie on 2008-05-08 10:22 ]

More likely your own perspective will change when you have kids. When they're theoretical you look at raising kids like "This is how my parents were and it was great" or "this is how I wish my parents were"

When you have your own kids, and you're looking at them... well then it's just different. Then you'd cut off an arm to keep them innocent just a little while longer- no matter how mature they are.

At least that's how I feel, and I really think it's how most really good parents feel.

The ones who buy their kids M games and use the excuse "my kid's mature for his age" or "He'll get it anyway, at least this way I know what he's playing" are just looking for excuses to be hands off parents. Video game babysitters FTW!!!

Vanzazikon

May 8, 2008, 03:22 PM

I have a problem, my baby cousin keeps wanting me to play RE4 so he can watch me play it and yet he's terrified of it. What the hell is his problem?

He also keeps holding an object shaped like a gun and keeps saying "BOOM." Is this bad?

[ This Message was edited by: Vanzazikon on 2008-05-08 13:23 ]

Nitro Vordex

May 8, 2008, 05:45 PM

On 2008-05-08 13:22, Vanzazikon wrote:
I have a problem, my baby cousin keeps wanting me to play RE4 so he can watch me play it and yet he's terrified of it. What the hell is his problem?

He also keeps holding an object shaped like a gun and keeps saying "BOOM." Is this bad?

[ This Message was edited by: Vanzazikon on 2008-05-08 13:23 ]
He's obviously gonna shoot up a school. /idiots.

These people who blame video games for shit like this, they are idiots. Why don't you start banning violent movies while you're at it?

Hell, ban football, and hockey, and anything else that requires bodily contact! Those are violence too!

Warning parents: Lock your children in your closet, or they'll murder people!

SStrikerR

May 8, 2008, 06:30 PM

On 2008-05-08 13:22, Vanzazikon wrote:
I have a problem, my baby cousin keeps wanting me to play RE4 so he can watch me play it and yet he's terrified of it. What the hell is his problem?

He also keeps holding an object shaped like a gun and keeps saying "BOOM." Is this bad?

[ This Message was edited by: Vanzazikon on 2008-05-08 13:23 ]
RE4 is fun to play and watch, and even though I play it it scares the crap outta me some times, especially when a chainsaw guy comes from behind in mercenaries =/
And yes, him holding an object like a gun and saying boom is bad.

ABDUR101

May 8, 2008, 07:47 PM

What normal kid doesn't play with toy guns? Fuck I'd be worried if he DID'NT do that. Lets not be abunch of wussies here, I was playing with toy guns at a very young age, as I got older I was taught gun safety and now I'm 24 and hey guess what I personally don't have much interest in going out and shooting stuff; and trust me living in the country there's all kinds of stuff to kill.

Comes down to the person, but just because the kid is running around going "BOOM!" with a 'gun look alike' doesn't mean anything.

Oh noes does he hold the gun siedwayz liek a gangsta?!

SStrikerR

May 8, 2008, 07:51 PM

^ I sure as hell didn't. I've prefered swords since age 5.

Weeaboolits

May 8, 2008, 08:32 PM

How's that any different?

At any rate, that's completely normal, now if they start torturing small animals, then I'd be worried.

Also, in regard to the OP, you don't buy your kid a porno and than bitch about them watching it, do you? Have some damn sense, if you don't want them exposed to it, don't buy the damn thing for them.

Also, when I was little I wasn't allowed to watch R-rated movies. Except Terminator, I was allowed to watch that for some reason, but not any others.

[ This Message was edited by: Ronin_Cooper on 2008-05-08 18:35 ]

McLaughlin

May 8, 2008, 08:42 PM

There's a guy at my local EB Games who refuses service to people buying M-Rated games for their chillun'.

SStrikerR

May 8, 2008, 09:11 PM

Good. But bad news for him if someone gets his manager.

McLaughlin

May 8, 2008, 10:09 PM

Not really. They have the right to refuse service to whomever they choose (as far as I'm aware).

Nitro Vordex

May 8, 2008, 10:10 PM

Most stores can refuse to sell.

I believe they have to have a sign declaring such, however.

Blitzkommando

May 9, 2008, 12:19 PM

Related news (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/37359/98/), everybody.

Sounds like they're putting it into the same area as R-rated movies. And, well, that's where they belong, so good.

ABDUR101

May 9, 2008, 01:31 PM

“Too many children are spending too much time playing inappropriate video games that most parents would find shocking and objectionable,” said Matheson. He adds that parents can’t monitor their kids all the time and that they need “common sense rules” to help.

i.e. You're too stupid to handle this yourself, so yet again we have to make a law for you.

The bill would impose a $5000 fine for retailers per violation, but the constitutionality of such a law would most certainly be immediately challenged. Other states have enacted similar laws, but those have been quickly struck down by the courts.

Odds are it won't pass then, har har.

Rep. Terry claims that many kids are simply walking into stores and buying these “shocking and troublesome” games “without their parents even knowing about it.”

Oh, you mean like they can go buy drugs, guns, and have sex anytime without their parents knowing? Shocker!

Ya know, its not about being omnipresent, but I'm pretty sure a parent can check in on their kids in their own room on occassion and see whats going on 'behind closed doors'. Growing up I never had the privacy of a door or a single bedroom, I always had a brother or sister in the same room with me(five siblings, the house was only so big). All the little twits who have had a locking door, and parents who always knocked before entering, well gee I wonder if they'd take advantage of that kind of privacy?

The truth is, alot of kids do have it too good. They expect to be treated as perfectly mature adults, "How dare you go through my things", "Knock before you come in!", etc. I swear to christ, if I ever had kids, they'd need dental work all the time; I've seen some kids lash out so hard at their parents over nothing, as if they wered 'owed' what they have, that I wanted to thump their skull in.

So in the end, eat that fukkerz haha, hopefully this law does pass, and MADD and all the other delusional half-wit anti-violence organizations can go blow a hard one when it comes to passing the blame onto Devs/Publishers and retailers.

It's easier to point at someone else than it is to point the finger inward. =]

Spacepest

May 12, 2008, 06:27 PM

Dear gawd, you don't know how badly I want to bitchslap parents for being so ignorant and stupid nowadays.

I work in a public library, and we have a non censorship policy to when it comes to checking out items. The only thing we filter is the internet access for the minors (18 and under). That's it. And we tell all parents when they sign thier underage children up for their library cards that they're responsible for whatever their kids check out, we don't monitor what they take out (we have movies, music cds, as well as books.)

Do these parents every pay any fucking attention when we explain this to them? Hell no. I often have to deal with parents complaining because their four year old kids checked out South Park or their teenage daugher was caught reading yaoi at home. And then I have to show them a copy of the permission slip they signed when they got the card that clearly states library employees do not monitor what minors check out. And I almost never see these complaining parents you know, actually paying any attention to their kids are when checking out these items. Parents are even standing next to thier kids checking out sexually explict material and don't even notice.

The permissiveness and stupidity of some of today's parents amazes me. Every time I play PSU or WoW and I run into some underage kids, I think to myself, "somewhere, out there, there is a stupid parent letting thier kid use their credit card, unmonitored."

McLaughlin

May 12, 2008, 07:00 PM

I really wish I had a lock on my door to keep my brother out of my clothes.

MetaZedlen

May 12, 2008, 07:33 PM

Hmm, from what I have read, I have concluded that both the kids and the parents need a good old-fashioned spanking, or if there is a worse situation, ass-kicking until they are laying on the floor not planning on moving for the next couple of hours.

3---Hit---U

May 12, 2008, 07:37 PM

On 2008-05-08 18:42, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
There's a guy at my local EB Games who refuses service to people buying M-Rated games for their chillun'.

He. Is. My. HEROOOOO

I see nothing wrong with Intelligent people playing M rated games, because most of them are like what dipshit is gonna do this in real life?

Immature kids, however, are like "omfg mast3r ch13f ju57 sh07 7h47 b17Ch!!!shift1! M1 7urn n00bz!

I heard people got shot because of the new GTA now?
very smart, kill people to get a game to kill people...

dumb gangstahs.

ljkkjlcm9

May 12, 2008, 08:52 PM

I don't see a problem with it. A parent can take a kid into an R rated movie, they can buy them an M rated game. Honestly, a parent could be doing a great job and still buy the game. The difference isn't buying the game and letting them play it, it's instructing them and teaching them. If someone wants to re-enact one of their really violent games, is that the games fault, or the parents. I'm sorry but, it's purely on the parents shoulders. There didn't use to be rating systems, I played violent games galore, did not make me want to go out and shoot people.

In summary, it's the parents decision. Buying it doesn't make them a good or bad parent. It's what they teach the kid that you may not be well aware of. Would I buy one for my kid someday? Depends on my kid. Who could be mature enough to handle and understand said game, or he might not be. But it is not my job to judge other people's parenting. Sure some prolly do suck at it, but it's their life to screw up.

THE JACKEL

McLaughlin

May 12, 2008, 10:05 PM

The thing is, the parents don't care. They buy whatever their kid wants because it'll keep him busy for a while.

And I beg to differ on another point. It may be their life to screw up, but there's collateral damage when some kid decides GTA looks like it'd be fun to act out. When they start screwing up everyone else's lives, it's no longer a private matter.

Spacepest

May 13, 2008, 12:18 AM

On 2008-05-12 20:05, Obsidian_Knight wrote:
The thing is, the parents don't care. They buy whatever their kid wants because it'll keep him busy for a while.

And I beg to differ on another point. It may be their life to screw up, but there's collateral damage when some kid decides GTA looks like it'd be fun to act out. When they start screwing up everyone else's lives, it's no longer a private matter.

Remember this if you ever send your children to a public school (or hell, any public place for that matter) where any parent who lives within a certain radius of it can send their kid there. And remember, before you decide to reserve judgement about parenting being a private matter, your kid is going to be sitting next to one of these poorly parented/unmonitored children. (So hell yes, other parents' crappy decisions piss me off. Especially when it can affect my family).

Sorry about my rant. I see waaaaay too many kids everyday whose lives are going to be f***ed up just because their parents are idiots or just don't care.

ljkkjlcm9

May 13, 2008, 01:22 AM

the only trend that has been consistent with the release of more violent video games, and violence in youth.... is a steady decline. The major difference is there are more BIG one hit instances. Most of the studies that showed violent video games made kids more violent were immediate after playing games. It's like when kids see a kung fu movie and walk out mimicking the moves. Even if the movie was PG. This is true for video games, they'll think it's cool right after, but very few will go any further. More recent tests have found that it's actually an outlet for violence in youth. I know it's typically that way with me. I get really mad, I enjoy blowing the heads off of zombies in resident evil or something.

You can't punish everyone because of the acts of a few. People seem to be forgetting this. If we continue to do this, it'll begin to restrict freedoms. And the line will slowly move to the point that you can't do anything anymore. Yeah may seem a little extreme now... but the more and more things you restrict, the more you say, "Well this is similar, why isn't it restricted." But as I've stated, R rated movies parents can bring their kids into, so I don't see why they can't buy them M rated games. If anything should change it's informing parents that these games can be just as bad if not worse than some R rated movies. It's a "new" form of popular entertainment. Gets bigger every year... and the current generation of parents weren't huge into games. But I know when the current people in their 20's or younger start having kids that are interested in M rated games, we'll know better.

THE JACKEL

Raine_Loire

May 13, 2008, 05:19 AM

First of all, while there are some restricted (r or NC-17) movies that every teenager should see- (I think that old movie Kids should be seen by 15 year olds. I think Schindler's list is a masterpiece) I believe that R movies should be off limits to everyone, 13 and under. None of this "with a parent" crap. Just because there are amoral parents who want to bring their children with them to movies rather than pay for a babysitter doesn't mean that it's OK. And 10 year olds should not be watching a lot of what they are watching in theaters or on DVD just because their parents are airheads without any better sense. The ratings board info even states it's not appropriate to bring small children into R movies. So unless I missed something and we suddenly de-evolved from humans to lemmings, saying "some parents do this so it's ok to do that" is not an acceptable argument in favor of anything- much less something this serious.

Second, there's a difference between seeing a movie and playing a game. There is, and who doesn't know that? When you play GTA you have more choices than if you see a movie. You control what you see, and how often you see it. True, there are movies that take place in strip clubs. But are there many that let the viewer get a lap dance while they're there and control the angles of it while the dancer talks dirty to them (it's not xxx dirty, but it's not appropriate for kids to hear)?

When they're a kid, every kid says "I can handle this, I'm mature enough. The ratings are BS, I'm not going to turn to a life of crime because I saw this." That's fine, it's the circle of life. But the circle depends on a parent with a little more sense saying "You have plenty of time in your life to play/watch this. Slow down and enjoy being a kid, you won't be one for long and you can never go back." Every child thinks they can handle whatever they want at the time. But the bottom line is- they don't know what they can or can't handle, because they don't have sufficient life experience to gauge that correctly. Kids need parents to set rules, set boundaries, and be strong, even if it means the kid has a fit and screams "I hate you!" and feels left out of conversations between kids with crappier parents then them.

Do I think that every kid who plays GTA4 is going to steal a gun and start doing drive by shootings? No, of course not. Do I think they'll start hiring hookers and then killing them to get their money back? No, not most of them. But I think that they WILL be desensitized to things that should always be shocking, always be a big deal. It's like communist brainwashing camps, where they take 3 year olds and show them violent images until they no longer react. The same thing is happening here, among our youth. I'm not sure what you base your claim on that violence in youth is steadily declining, violence in schools isn't the only violence there is. And it typically does take a number of years for violent behavior to progress to a crime that would be reported- and by that time, the crimes fall under "adult" crimes, and the perpetrators have much easier access to guns.

You absolutely CAN punish the many for the crimes of the few. ABSOLUTELY. It's done all the time. It's preventative law. Think it's not fair? Tough crap. It protects you as well as everyone else. What do you think gun control laws are for? Or marijuana being illegal? What about the drinking age? People let their kids drink sometimes, does that mean the drinking age should be lowered? The smoking age? All of these things are PREVENTATIVE, protecting the many from the crimes of a few. We don't need to handle crime on a crime by crime basis. Laws to protect people BEFORE a crime is committed can and should exist.

I wonder- if your kid is in school, and gets shot in a school shooting- and the shooter says they got the idea from a video game- when your stance changes from "mature enough kid" to "wronged parent"- if your position would change. I'll tell you one thing. I play a lot of games- I also have a 7 year old daughter and a 5 year old son. This fall my 7 year old will start 2nd grade, and the 5 year old will start kindergarten. I would not- in any way- oppose a complete ban of M games and R movies to ANYONE under 18 under ANY circumstances- facing criminal punishments against both the parents and the retailer. You know why I wouldn't mind? Because I control why my kids see and play, but I don't control anyone else's kids. And if it has the potential to keep stuff out of the hands of just ONE child who would go nuts- it's totally worth it. If anything ever happens to one of my kids, and it's by a kid with parents with your opinion- "It won't hurt anyone, it's fine" then God help those parents, because the police won't be able to.

I know it seems like I'm attacking Jackel, but I'm not- not JUST him anyway. I'm terrified of my baby starting school in the fall, I am terrified of him growing up in this terrible world that so many people seem so hell bent on making worse. And if I can't count on other parents caring as much about their kids as I do about mine, then I guess I have that much more to worry about.

ljkkjlcm9

May 13, 2008, 11:03 AM

fyi, I go to Virginia Tech. I support people being able to carry concealed weapons on campus. And I feel video games had nothing to do with it etc etc

I would still blame the parents. Clearly they did not know their child if they bought him an M rated game and he went and shot up a school.

My point about restricting things is that all the things you mention are HARMFUL, to yourself even. They're often not only protecting other people, but protecting you from yourself. Playing a game in and of itself does no harm. Guns are intended to harm people, and therefore are only meant to be given to those who will use it to protect... but then again it still isn't 100% effective. Should we just ban guns then? No, that's just as stupid. The drinking age should be lowered. People can vote and serve in the military and die at 18, but can't have a drink... that's absurd.

Anyways... I do thinking punishing the many for the acts of a few is absurd. And restricting things DOES NOT STOP things. Kids still sneak into rated R movies. I know I did when I was younger. And there were times when my parents knew I was going to and didn't care. Parents should be responsible for any actions their kids make. Yes, a shitty parent can have an affect on your kid. But a good parent can overcome this as well. Granted there are extremes... but c'mon. You CAN'T live in fear everyday of what someone MIGHT do. There are deadly car accidents everyday... should you stop driving, or better yet ban people from driving altogether. "But oh, the driving age is 16." Yeah well there are tons of accidents and apparently at 25 you magically become a better driver and get a huge discount on insurance. Maybe the driving age should be 25.

Yes kids will say they're mature enough for said things, but it should be the parents judgment whether or not they are. Not every kid matures the same way... not even close.(I get my info on crime rates from the likes of the FBI website.)

All I'm saying is, where do you draw the line? You do that, it'll turn into what kids do to get beer. Send in someone old enough to get it, wait outside. Parents will go without kids, store clerk sees them alone, no problem. You're not going to stop it, and you're just going to make the kids want the games more by restricting it more, meaning they'll find different ways to get it. The internet is anonymous... parents credit cards etc.

THE JACKEL

Gunslinger-08

May 13, 2008, 11:25 PM

On 2008-05-12 17:33, Zedlen wrote:
Hmm, from what I have read, I have concluded that both the kids and the parents need a good old-fashioned spanking

It works. Period. It's how I was raised, and I'm glad for it.

Shiba1227

May 18, 2008, 01:42 AM

I find the issue of parents pointing the figure at everything except themselves infuriating. I myself turned 14 a few weeks ago, but I've been M rated games for years now.

I wonder though, why would you bar any one under the age from playing them? If you don't suck as a parent, you should know if your child is mature enough to play said games.

Uncle_bob

May 18, 2008, 02:34 AM

On 2008-05-17 23:42, Shiba1227 wrote:

I wonder though, why would you bar any one under the age from playing them? If you don't suck as a parent, you should know if your child is mature enough to play said games.

Because children are fucking annoying.
True story.

Raine_Loire

May 18, 2008, 12:50 PM

On 2008-05-17 23:42, Shiba1227 wrote:
I find the issue of parents pointing the figure at everything except themselves infuriating. I myself turned 14 a few weeks ago, but I've been M rated games for years now.

I wonder though, why would you bar any one under the age from playing them? If you don't suck as a parent, you should know if your child is mature enough to play said games.

If you don't suck as a parent you know that no one under a certain age is mature enough to play said games. If you don't suck as a parent you aren't afraid to make "unpopular decisions" even if your kids scream that they hate you. If you don't suck as a parent you know that EVERY KID in the history of the world has thought they were mature enough for something they weren't old enough for.

Stormsworder

May 18, 2008, 01:06 PM

I had DOOM when I was like, eight. Thing is, I'm mature and stuff and don't act like an obnoxious child on servers. I did just fine with M-Rated games when I was young, and I'm still respectful and not foul-mouthed like half the kids are these days on the servers.

Leviathan

May 18, 2008, 04:56 PM

On 2008-05-12 17:33, Zedlen wrote:
Hmm, from what I have read, I have concluded that both the kids and the parents need a good old-fashioned spanking

Uncle_bob

May 18, 2008, 06:54 PM

On 2008-05-18 10:50, Raine_Loire wrote:

If you don't suck as a parent you know that no one under a certain age is mature enough to play said games. If you don't suck as a parent you aren't afraid to make "unpopular decisions" even if your kids scream that they hate you. If you don't suck as a parent you know that EVERY KID in the history of the world has thought they were mature enough for something they weren't old enough for.

You're alright. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

ljkkjlcm9

May 18, 2008, 07:10 PM

On 2008-05-18 16:54, Uncle_bob wrote:

On 2008-05-18 10:50, Raine_Loire wrote:

If you don't suck as a parent you know that no one under a certain age is mature enough to play said games. If you don't suck as a parent you aren't afraid to make "unpopular decisions" even if your kids scream that they hate you. If you don't suck as a parent you know that EVERY KID in the history of the world has thought they were mature enough for something they weren't old enough for.

You're alright. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

except there is NOT a clear age. Anyone under 10 shouldn't play an M rated game, that's clear. But I've met 13/14 year olds who were more mature than 18 year olds. It DOES happen. Ages are not exact. I mean it use to be people were married and having kids at 16. So to say someone can't be mature enough for an M rated game before age 18 is just absurd.

People do not develop identically, ages are really guidelines for things like movies and games. For things like alcohol and cigarettes and driving, it's for liability purposes. No physical harm can come just from seeing a movie or playing a game.

THE JACKEL

[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2008-05-18 17:11 ]

Uncle_bob

May 18, 2008, 08:52 PM

Jackal, no harm intended, but you're MISSING THE FUCKING POINT. My point and Raine's.

These laws exist for a reason, despite the fact that they're hardly enforced. Little Timmy simply has no fucking business having 18+ rated material. For one, he's probably simply not old enough for the content. Secondly, when it comes to online games...see my original post. I want all these whiny 12 year olds off my fucking Gmod and TF2. I have the law backing me up on this.

Blitzkommando

May 18, 2008, 08:57 PM

People used to die at 35 too. That's why they'd get married at 14-16 because, in those times, that was middle age. Just because you can get a girl pregnant doesn't make you mentally mature. Physical maturity peaks sometimes over a decade before mental maturity. Hell, I had hairy beasts of legs at 13. That doesn't mean I wasn't a self-centered teen, because I absolutely was. And, then there's the problem when you have more than one young kid on a public server. They tend to feed off of each other and cause even more problems, whether or not they were 'mature' in the first place, they aren't mature enough to not cause problems for a laugh from their peers.

ljkkjlcm9

May 18, 2008, 10:03 PM

No, you're missing the point. You're generalizing, and my points is that generalizing doesn't work. It isn't ILLEGAL for a kid to play an M-rated game, it's illegal to purchase it alone. As I stated it's legal for a kid to go to an R rated movie with an adult, and it's legal for an adult to buy an M rated game for their kid. No one matures mentally or physically at the same rate. And yes, some kids are mature and others are not. Hell "Chuck Norris" plays this game, PC/PS2, and until he told me his age I never would've guessed he was that young.

THE JACKEL

Uncle_bob

May 18, 2008, 10:08 PM

Nope, sorry. Do you have Garrys Mod? Seriously, I'll give you the IP to my server so you can see where I'm coming from. Kids don't need to be playing this game.

ljkkjlcm9

May 19, 2008, 12:14 AM

On 2008-05-18 20:08, Uncle_bob wrote:
Nope, sorry. Do you have Garrys Mod? Seriously, I'll give you the IP to my server so you can see where I'm coming from. Kids don't need to be playing this game.

Generalizing is horrible. I can agree MOST kids probably should not play M rated games. But not ALL.
Clearly the bad ones will stand out far more than the good ones. The people who complain and make noise always stand out. For example, these wonderful forums (lol) the people who don't like something are always more vocal than the ones who do like something.

THE JACKEL

[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2008-05-18 22:16 ]

DraginHikari

May 19, 2008, 01:23 AM

What laws are you people talking about here?

In the US there is no law that states that you a child can or cannot view a Rated R movie nor a Rated M game.

These type of rules are created by retailers and providers who use it to maintain an imange or a reputation. Video games and movies are protected speech and most of the laws attempting to regulate them has been declare unconstiontial.

[ This Message was edited by: DraginHikari on 2008-05-18 23:25 ]

Raine_Loire

May 19, 2008, 02:35 AM

Jackel, you just don't get it. Really. It's ok, it's because you're a kid- mentally if not chronologically. You aren't a parent, and you're looking at things from "I remember when I was that age" instead of looking at it from the opposite, erm- an adult. Let me put it this way. My son is 5. He also seems a lot older to most people, and it's gotten us in trouble with the police, when my husband's ncos called the police to send truant officers after us, and I had to whip out his birth certificate. I can only assume that he will maintain the same level of maturity as he ages, and by 14 or 15 would be as mature as a lot of 18 year olds. There are such teenagers as this, I'm not denying their existence. Will I let him watch R movies or play M games? Absolutely not. Because he'll have plenty of life for nudity and sex, violence and gore. Plenty of time when he can buy the games for himself, why the f*** would I subject him to stuff like that at an early age and start the desensitization at an earlier age than necessary?

You have repeated the same crap over and over "Some people are mature enough," "don't punish the ones who are because of the ones who aren't," But you have yet to give ONE actual reason why parents SHOULD buy their kids Mature games. Because they can handle them? That doesn't give a reason why they should have them. I could probably survive skin cancer, but I keep my white ass out of the sun anyway. The bottom line is that if a game is looked at by the ratings board and rated such and such a thing, it's a pretty good guideline, and there is not ONE reason to buy it. And as Uncle Bob has pointed out, time and time again, teenagers with too much freedom show exactly why it's NOT a good idea. Yes Chuck Norris plays THIS game. It's also a T game, not an M game. Oh, and if you read his posts and didn't guess his age, you're not in a position to decide what "mature enough for M games" is. Seriously. No offense to Chuck... but come on, he's not really trying to masquerade as a 30 year old! His SN is CHUCK NORRIS!

Like Blitzkommando said, mental maturity is far behind physical. There are, in fact, still countries in the world with a life expectency of under 40 years. I'm fairly sure they don't hand the baby a controller the day it's born because it'll be middle aged in a few days and they need to get in as much needless gore and sex as they can. Yes, when lifespans were shorter, people married and had kids at earlier ages. However even the physical maturity didn't happen as soon as people seem to think- the childbirth was hard on the women, and a lot of the ones who survived having kids at 13 would be left barren from the trauma. Just because people are allowed to do something and they think they are ready to do it, and everyone else is doing it doesn't mean they SHOULD be doing it.

Hikari, while the rules do state that a child can't BUY a M game or a R movie ticket, it's hardly created by retailers to maintain their reputations. If that was true, it would be enforced more. The fact is that while the spirit of the law is intended to keep these materials out of the hands of minors, there are always ways to circumvent the law until it's spelled out to the letter.

Blitzkommando

May 19, 2008, 02:38 AM

On 2008-05-18 22:14, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
Generalizing is horrible. I can agree MOST kids probably should not play M rated games. But not ALL.

Generalization is what every human in the world does every day. If you can't live with that fact you obviously haven't been out in the real world long enough. We generalize to make our lives easier. If it offends someone that they are a member of "X group" what are you going to do? Beat the shit out of the guy because his mind automatically puts them into "X Group"? We're always judging. You yourself do it so don't get high and mighty when others do the same. I'm sure there's people out there that you instantly generalize as idiots, probably somewhere to do with your personal beliefs and people that don't jive with them.

Clearly the bad ones will stand out far more than the good ones. The people who complain and make noise always stand out.

So, you finally get the point but still argue that it's unimportant. Good job.

Is it really worth it, as a server administrator, to put up with the thousands of bad cases in the off chance that he'll get two that aren't spawns of the devil? I've seen it more than just Team Fortress 2 and Garry's Mod. It was in UT2004, HL:DM, OpFor:DM, PSO, PSU, and countless other games. In the vast majority of cases where there are kiddies on the server, they end up causing headaches to the rest of the players. Spamming props, spamming on the mic, yelling and cursing over the mic, and if it's enabled, team killing or general anti-team tactics because they think it's funny to ruin the game for others.

In the end, if parents don't mind their kids playing in violent games with foul-mouthed adult males constantly talking about sex, alcohol, and making crude (in any and every way possible) jokes, hey, that's their mistake. But, personally, I don't think a kid should be participating in that kind of an environment because it gives them a very poor view on how adults act and should act. Men get on games to get away from the real world, they let loose their frustrations and often times that means they can get really vulgar. These games are not designed to cater to kids that need parenting. And it shouldn't be our place, as server administrators, to have to clean up house and stop them from messing up other players' fun. So, it's not just the game itself, it's the other players that are reason to keep kids away from adult games. I've seen kids that talk like that in real life and my urge is to smack them upside the head because of the complete lack of respect they have.

Chuck_Norris

May 19, 2008, 04:32 AM

Wow! People are talking about me! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Anyway, I have a few things to add.

Raine, you ask why parents should buy M rated game for their children. With that logic, why should parents buy video games for their kids at all? Or movies for that matter? After all, they're all just wastes of time.

Truthfully, I really fail to see why gore and sex have such a tabuu anyway. They're parts of a human being. Religion has just changed our ideals so much, that we think anything envolving the human body is off limits.

I mean, look at Japan. They don't think much of blood and nudity. They have had little invluence of religion. They haven't been brainwashed into thinking that the human body is the apidomy of evil.

DreXxiN

May 19, 2008, 09:03 AM

I agree with Raine that seeing many kids growing up should NOT be playing M rated games (if anything, for maturity reasons). In that same aspect, I second Chuck Norris in that you might as well not let kids play games or watch movies at all.

For example, You can see Boobs in T rated games, PG13 films, and hell, sometimes even PG films, even if it's not completely revealed. Kids will see this, and think "Wow I like this, I want more!" and will try their best to see the stuff. Why? Not necessarily because it's cool, but most likely because the fact that it is "wrong" to do, which makes it more of a thrill, similar to high school drinking parties. So it's all a mindtrick from the media if you ask me, to lure kids to this kind of content.

Also, I'm not one to beleive kids shouldn't be able to play M-rated games until they are 18.
I stand by this because it's a bad idea to me to keep people in Dragon Tales & Barney....& Friends... Land until they are an adult, and then throw them into the world with no "preview" of the upcoming violence, sex, etc that they will be witnessing later on in life. M rated games can pose a decent problem for those who cannot differentiate what your objectives should be in a video game versus what should be done in real life. (AKA, A LOT of the population) If you ask me, this is much less troublesome than child sweatshops, throwing them into a sex slave position, or raising them as soldiers from birth. Also on a religious note, I'd much rather have my kid learn from himself (if I deem him qualifying to handle such content) rather than have him forced into Christianity, or any religion for that matter, and get fed lies and propaganda. In other words, I want him to make his own beleif in faith on his own.

Really, despite all restrictions on M rated games (or supposed attempts thereof), You are still going to walk outside, and see Gangs, guns, shooting, sex, Blood, swearing, and many other things that we would consider bad for children. No, don't let your 10-13 year old kid play Grand Theft Auto, but if want to follow that rating system that ESRB enforces, you might as well keep your child in a box in a small room somewhere.

ljkkjlcm9

May 19, 2008, 10:47 AM

No I get it clearly. I would not buy the games for my kids if I ever had any. But I'm not going to walk around and tell other parents what to do with their kids. You've missed that entirely.

Yes we all generalize, but that doesn't justify doing it either.

Yes I've argued the same points over and over, but so have all of you, it hasn't told me ANYTHING I didn't already know.

It appears none of you have actually grasped my point in this argument. All of you make valid points, and I'm not arguing that every kid should be playing M rated games. I'm only arguing that it is not your decision to make for other parents. Some parents feel their kids are mature enough. Some parents sit there and watch their kids play the games. Just because you notice and observe all the kids that can't handle it (quite obviously) does not tell you how many kids are out there playing it and behaving just fine. Voice chat can be turned off. I personally hate voice chat in games and never use it unless I'm only playing with friends. So go ahead, restrict your own children. But you have no right to order another parent what to do with their own children.

THE JACKEL

[ This Message was edited by: ljkkjlcm9 on 2008-05-19 08:51 ]

Shiba1227

May 19, 2008, 04:27 PM

On 2008-05-18 10:50, Raine_Loire wrote:

On 2008-05-17 23:42, Shiba1227 wrote:
I find the issue of parents pointing the figure at everything except themselves infuriating. I myself turned 14 a few weeks ago, but I've been M rated games for years now.

I wonder though, why would you bar any one under the age from playing them? If you don't suck as a parent, you should know if your child is mature enough to play said games.

If you don't suck as a parent you know that no one under a certain age is mature enough to play said games. If you don't suck as a parent you aren't afraid to make "unpopular decisions" even if your kids scream that they hate you. If you don't suck as a parent you know that EVERY KID in the history of the world has thought they were mature enough for something they weren't old enough for.

Ditto. I meant you YOURSELF should make a choice on whether or not your child is mature enough to play M ratted games. If you don't think they are, don't get the damn game.

I don't know how you could have gotten parents caving into demands by their kids from that. :/

Raine_Loire

May 20, 2008, 02:40 AM

On 2008-05-19 07:03, DreXxiN wrote:

Also, I'm not one to beleive kids shouldn't be able to play M-rated games until they are 18.
I stand by this because it's a bad idea to me to keep people in Dragon Tales & Barney....& Friends... Land until they are an adult, and then throw them into the world with no "preview" of the upcoming violence, sex, etc that they will be witnessing later on in life. M rated games can pose a decent problem for those who cannot differentiate what your objectives should be in a video game versus what should be done in real life. (AKA, A LOT of the population) If you ask me, this is much less troublesome than child sweatshops, throwing them into a sex slave position, or raising them as soldiers from birth. Also on a religious note, I'd much rather have my kid learn from himself (if I deem him qualifying to handle such content) rather than have him forced into Christianity, or any religion for that matter, and get fed lies and propaganda. In other words, I want him to make his own beleif in faith on his own.

First of all, I'm an adult, and have been a while. I have never seen anyone die in real life. I've never cut someone's head off, I've never watched other people have sex, I've never done drugs or watched others do them, I've never shot a gun or been shot at, I've never been nor have I met anyone who has been a slave in a sweat shop, I was not nor has anyone my life has come in contact with been raised to be a soldier from birth... and well, pretty much all the other crap that you claim I wasn't prepared for because I wasn't allowed to play M games or watch R movies before the rating system said I could.

There is a HUGE difference between Barney, and GTA4. And there's a middle ground. Most people walk the middle ground for their entire lives. The ones who don't- well they don't need GTA to show them what life on the streets is like- they know it long before some DBs make a game about it. Games like GTA are for sheltered, spoiled, middle class kids to play and live vicariously through.

Chuck, you're right, there is no NEED for video games. They're a luxury item, unnecessary at best, like movies. However, like movies, there are age restrictions on them, which were set by a panel of people who are capable, unlike MANY people on these forums, of thinking about what is in the best interest of children. They rate the games, they put an age limit on the games, and there are laws preventing minors from walking into the stores and buying these games. Now when a parent goes in and buys a game for their kids to circumvent the laws trying to keep the games out of the kids hands, they're showing their kids that they only have to follow rules when they agree with them, they're teaching their kids "you're different from everyone else, the rules don't apply to you" and they're saying "I approve of what happens in these games." Explain which of those 3 statements is healthy for children to hear.

So I say, if I'm going to help my child go around laws that were put in place to protect him, I want a reason. As in what I say to my son when he wants something when I've already said no- "Tell me why I should. Convince me." I'm a tough sell, by the way. I have yet to hear one single reason from you kiddies- and adults who haven't realized you aren't kiddies yet- why any parent SHOULD go around the rules and give their kid something they aren't allowed to get for themselves. Should a parent also supply their children with alcohol and cigarettes if they "know" their child is "mature enough" and won't get addicted or go out and hurt someone? Should they buy their kid a hooker if they "feel they're ready" for it?

I have given you a very good reason why they should not- because kids have a long life once they turn 18. They have years and years after that. But they only have the first 18 to be children. As parents, we should be protecting those 18 years, it's our responsibility to protect them for our children. The rest of their lives, it's up to them- what they do, the choices they make. But for the first 18 years, it's up to the parents. Set limits, instill values and morals. And all of those things are declining as each generation fails the next by trying to be "cool" and "understanding" and "helping their kids grow up faster."

Children are NOT just small adults. Teenagers are not adults except for their age. If you need proof, join a multiplayer GTA mission. Kids screaming and swearing, doing missions wrong on purpose so their teams lose, and just generally getting on other people's nerves. I bet all their parents thought THEY were mature enough for the games too.

Jackel, I'm not saying that I go up to people and tell them they need to stop buying M games for their kids, although if I worked at gamestop, I would indeed not sell to parents who are CLEARLY buying them for their kids. But I think we need laws like New Zealand's law banning people from buying M games for their children.

I don't approach people, but that's not to say if I did I wouldn't be within my rights, because I would be. The only way what other people do wouldn't be my business would be if they in no way affected my life. The thing is, though, that other people's decisions DO impact my life. The same as I am careful about noise in my house and keep my music down at all times- yet my neighbor has her music blasting at 3 AM on a Sunday night/monday morning. I am raising my son to be a good person, and I have a right to try to prevent someone elses kid from turning into a shitbag BEFORE they shoot up my son's school. Everything you do affects people around you, and the effects can be far reaching- even to people you've never even met. That includes how you raise your children.

Nai_Calus

May 20, 2008, 05:19 AM

You know, Raine, it's ironic how you condescendingly call everyone 'kiddies', when your own posts are so self-centered and childish as to make me completely dismiss your opinions out of hand. 'It's not the way I do it so it's wrong' is an egotistical, unthinking viewpoint with absolutely no validity.

And I'm glad you're so sheltered, but other people are not. I have seen people die. I have seen people having sex and doing drugs. I have met people who were raised to kill, and people raised as the targets of people who wanted to kill them, all of them probably half your age(From the constant 'kiddies' b.s. I'm presuming you're in your early 40s) and with more years and maturity on them than you'll ever have.

People are not stereotypes. I know 16 year olds I'd trust with voting, fighting wars and driving my car. I know 45 year olds I'd trust with none of them.

It's nice if the 'Don't trust anybody under 30' mindset works for you, but it's not a one-size-fits-all thing, sorry.

It's an academic discussion for me, since I, recognizing that I would make a terrible parent due to a lack of patience and a lack of giving a damn, have decided not to breed. But if I had kids, sure, I'd let them play violent video games. I'd sit down with them while they played, too, and explain each and every single thing that happened until they understood damned well that this is A: Fake. B: Wrong. C: Not something you should ever do, but D: Can be quite fun if you are, in fact, capable of understanding that this is, in fact, make-believe. Any kid I'd have would know how to use a gun and exactly what a gun is capable of doing, and would know damn well that just shooting someone for the hell of it or to get what you want is stupid, wrong and completely not the sort of thing you should do. This would, of course, make me a 'bad parent' in your eyes, and yet I seriously doubt that my kid would end up shooting up his school because he did it in a video game.

Sheltering kids and making sure everything is safe for them is a great way to have them hit the world completely unprepared.

But I am very, very deeply cynical, so. XP

ljkkjlcm9

May 20, 2008, 01:29 PM

On 2008-05-20 00:40, Raine_Loire wrote:
Jackel, I'm not saying that I go up to people and tell them they need to stop buying M games for their kids, although if I worked at gamestop, I would indeed not sell to parents who are CLEARLY buying them for their kids. But I think we need laws like New Zealand's law banning people from buying M games for their children.

Ok, if I really want to buy said M rated game for my child... I walk into the store alone, buy the game, and bring it home to my kid. Laws like that can never prevent it. It's up to the parents and any "laws" are just dumb. So what next, if we find the parent bought the game and lets the kid play it, we arrest the parent?

Look, this is a dumb argument. The rating system is there for a reason, if a parent chooses to ignore it, it's their choice. We can't force them to pay attention to it.

THE JACKEL

granis1233

May 20, 2008, 01:44 PM

i have 2 words to say HELL YAAA.

DreXxiN

May 20, 2008, 04:09 PM

To Raine: About the whole barney thing, Yes I understand there is a middle point, I was just exxagerating a bit xP.

Also I agree with pretty much everything Ian has said (as usual).

Chuck_Norris

May 20, 2008, 05:49 PM

On 2008-05-20 14:09, DreXxiN wrote:
Also I agree with pretty much everything Ian has said (as usual).

Indeed.

washuguy

May 20, 2008, 06:00 PM

On 2008-05-07 23:22, Uncle_bob wrote:
Are you a parent? Do me a favor, stop buying fucking M rated games for your little snotnosed shit-for-brains kids. I'm tired of playing with them, they're fucking annoying.

Shouldn't you be buying them Barney or something? Or better yet, SPEND TIME WITH YOUR KIDS? Instead of getting high on meth and partying?

Fuck. You.

Thanks.

Post-rage Edit: The main reason I posted this is because I run a Garrys Mod server for myself, friends, and whoever else wants to join.

My problem is all these fucking kiddies that join, start yelling and screaming into their mic, and demand that I give them god mode, weapons, admin rights and whatever else they feel they're entitled to. When I tell them no, they attempt to crash the server or do whatever else they can to be disruptive and annoying. Good god, fuck all of them.

[ This Message was edited by: Uncle_bob on 2008-05-09 19:21 ]
YES... OMG... I play saints row online, all those kids do is curse and yell, its so annoying. This one kid was like 10 years old and I swear he used every curse word you could think of within the 20 minutes we spent playing. It was ridiculous.

Nitro Vordex

May 20, 2008, 06:06 PM

As a teen, this thread makes me want to cry.

Everyone of you sound like kids arguing for no apparent reason.

Uncle_Bob- I don't know about the yelling and screaming, but damn dude. I feel for you. (Or should I call you sir instead of dude? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif )

Uncle_bob

May 20, 2008, 09:08 PM

tl;dr I'm right, you're wrong. Go away and let me have my fucking rant.

The laws and ratings exist for a reason. I don't care if you think your kid is "mature" enough, he's not.

I think I'm going to start reporting underage accounts/users to Valve. Really, you don't know how fucking sick I am of this bullshit. I'm tired of having them shit up the community. Sure I can ban them from my server, but they can still go join one of the other hundreds of servers and cause trouble there.

On 2008-05-20 16:06, Nitro_Vordex wrote:

Uncle_Bob- I don't know about the yelling and screaming, but damn dude. I feel for you. (Or should I call you sir instead of dude? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif )

Whichever one fits best. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

ljkkjlcm9

May 20, 2008, 11:27 PM

The ratings exist as a warning to parents to inform them about the material contained in the game. It's like the surgeon general's warning on cigarettes. It itself is not a law saying such and such can not play. Unless the law says, no parent can allow their kid to play an M rated game, they have every right to do so.

THE JACKEL

Raine_Loire

May 21, 2008, 04:00 AM

On 2008-05-20 03:19, Ian-KunX wrote:

It's an academic discussion for me, since I, recognizing that I would make a terrible parent due to a lack of patience and a lack of giving a damn, have decided not to breed.

First of all, if you think you would be a terrible parent, why would you think any way you would be if you had kids could possibly be correct?

Things change when you have kids. That's all. People without kids cannot possibly know how they will react when they have them. Before I had kids I would have agreed with you about this issue. But when I see my son's face, I know I will never be a party to taking an ounce of the innocence out of his eyes.

Yeah, I was sheltered. And therefore I was totally unprepared for the world. I was also very mature for my age, which is why in my 20s, people assume I'm in my 40s (and the calling people kiddies- which I "constantly" did in one post- has less to do with age than mentality). I actually was mature enough to understand why my parents sheltered me, which didn't stop me from lying, skipping school, and sneaking around behind their backs. I understand that kids will do what they want- they'll sneak the games if they're determined enough to get them. People still buy illegal guns, right? People still do drugs. But the frequency would drop. It wouldn't be a green light to kids to do what they want, which is pretty much what they have now. At least when you're sneaking around you're absorbing somewhat what proper morals and lifestyles should be- even if it's "not this." One thing their constant supervision and hands on involvement in my life did for me was teach me to think for myself. I've never been drunk, I haven't even drank anything alcoholic since I was old enough to legally drink- I don't smoke, I've never done drugs... and this stuff was a serious fear for my parents, considering my dad's family is a bunch of addicts.

Do you think I would have been better prepared for life had GTA 4 been around back then? Do you feel that watching R movies at 10 helped prepare you for seeing someone die? Are all the alcoholics and drug addicts in the world people like me who were sheltered, or were they people whose parents didn't give a rats ass what they did, and just threw them out to fend for themselves?

My son knows there is bad in the world. He knows there is evil. But he also knows our home is a sanctuary from that, a place he's safe in. And we keep the outside world out. He'll go out into the world aware of what real life is, and prepared for it, but with a childhood foundation strong enough to handle anything that gets thrown at him.

The thing that is the saddest to me is that there isn't a test people have to take before they are allowed to have children.

Anyway, this topic is off track by now, considering it wasn't supposed to be debating the legalities of buying kids M games, so much as the practical reasons why they shouldn't be on them.

At least it didn't turn into a "kids suck, keep them off the internet" vs "Adults are too old for games" flame war like topics in this vein tend to.

thunder-ray

May 21, 2008, 05:59 AM

On 2008-05-21 02:00, Raine_Loire wrote:

On 2008-05-20 03:19, Ian-KunX wrote:

It's an academic discussion for me, since I, recognizing that I would make a terrible parent due to a lack of patience and a lack of giving a damn, have decided not to breed.

First of all, if you think you would be a terrible parent, why would you think any way you would be if you had kids could possibly be correct?

Things change when you have kids. That's all. People without kids cannot possibly know how they will react when they have them. Before I had kids I would have agreed with you about this issue. But when I see my son's face, I know I will never be a party to taking an ounce of the innocence out of his eyes.

Yeah, I was sheltered. And therefore I was totally unprepared for the world. I was also very mature for my age, which is why in my 20s, people assume I'm in my 40s (and the calling people kiddies- which I "constantly" did in one post- has less to do with age than mentality). I actually was mature enough to understand why my parents sheltered me, which didn't stop me from lying, skipping school, and sneaking around behind their backs. I understand that kids will do what they want- they'll sneak the games if they're determined enough to get them. People still buy illegal guns, right? People still do drugs. But the frequency would drop. It wouldn't be a green light to kids to do what they want, which is pretty much what they have now. At least when you're sneaking around you're absorbing somewhat what proper morals and lifestyles should be- even if it's "not this." One thing their constant supervision and hands on involvement in my life did for me was teach me to think for myself. I've never been drunk, I haven't even drank anything alcoholic since I was old enough to legally drink- I don't smoke, I've never done drugs... and this stuff was a serious fear for my parents, considering my dad's family is a bunch of addicts.

Do you think I would have been better prepared for life had GTA 4 been around back then? Do you feel that watching R movies at 10 helped prepare you for seeing someone die? Are all the alcoholics and drug addicts in the world people like me who were sheltered, or were they people whose parents didn't give a rats ass what they did, and just threw them out to fend for themselves?

My son knows there is bad in the world. He knows there is evil. But he also knows our home is a sanctuary from that, a place he's safe in. And we keep the outside world out. He'll go out into the world aware of what real life is, and prepared for it, but with a childhood foundation strong enough to handle anything that gets thrown at him.

The thing that is the saddest to me is that there isn't a test people have to take before they are allowed to have children.

Anyway, this topic is off track by now, considering it wasn't supposed to be debating the legalities of buying kids M games, so much as the practical reasons why they shouldn't be on them.

At least it didn't turn into a "kids suck, keep them off the internet" vs "Adults are too old for games" flame war like topics in this vein tend to.

amen