PSU's casting delay

[Weeaboolits]

What the hell is the point of it? Techs aren't so powerful that it's necessary, we have all these TP boosting units, but you don't wanna use em, 'cause if you do the enemies'll have gone off on their merry little way by the time your Ra- tech decides it feels like hitting.

Then they have the concentrate units, as if the delay isn't long enough already, they want us to EXTEND IT? wat

Techs may have been strong enough to warrant this at launch, but they sure as hell aren't now, they really should nerf the delay so I can use something aside from har/quick and not have to worry about being killed before giresta goes off.

[Nitro Vordex]

They probably put that in there to prevent spamming at a high rate. Can you imagine someone deciding they want to spam a flashy high level spell every second. Major graphics slowdown, amirite?

[Weeaboolits]

Then they wouldn't have made masterforce, which gets a speed bonus AND level 50 attack techs.

[thunder-ray]

I prefer speed casting over tech power so I can tag all the mobs since everything dies in secounds. I often wonder if I grinded my wands, rods and madoogs if the extra power would make a difference.

[Seority]

I know that the boost damage techs are pretty lame right now compaired to just using har / quicks, but I do agree with Nitro, that the mass of spells, would slow us PS2 users more the help speed us up.

[Kent]

It's PSU. It wasn't meant to be balanced.

Personally, I think Zonde should auto-recast when the button is held, at about the rate of your average Machinegun.

[Sychosis]

I know that the boost damage techs are pretty lame right now compaired to just using har / quicks, but I do agree with Nitro, that the mass of spells, would slow us PS2 users more the help speed us up.

Then why make them progressively more graphics intensive? In fact, why are they so graphically intensive to begin with? There is nothing stunning about their appearance, they just eat away at your frame rate for no real reason. No reason aside from the obvious one. SEGA likes to cut corners.

Can't say I blame them, suckers are throwing money at their feet the whole time they do it.

[thunder-ray]

For me I do balance dmg as long as I can do decent dmg im fine with the dmg a techer can do. At the same time it would be cool to have faster casting speed and more dmg with techs.

[Nitro Vordex]

It's PSU. It wasn't meant to be balanced.


End thread?

[Shinko]

Personally, I think Zonde should auto-recast when the button is held, at about the rate of your average Machinegun.

every spell should be like that......
and instead of speed up they should just make some techs stronger

[Sord]

Then why make them progressively more graphics intensive? In fact, why are they so graphically intensive to begin with? There is nothing stunning about their appearance, they just eat away at your frame rate for no real reason. No reason aside from the obvious one. SEGA likes to cut corners.

Can't say I blame them, suckers are throwing money at their feet the whole time they do it.
not to mention the programming efficiency is just shit

[Weeaboolits]

Yes, I just adore the way it's coded, too much stuff in memory? let's uncache some data while it's being used!

Also I love how the sparkle effect on Blackheart loads before the weapon style or model, not to mention the occasional 2-minute shifta load.

[F-Gattaca]

Casting time is a staple of a lot of real-time MMORPGs out there. PSU isn't the black sheep here; in fact, I can't think of many MMOs that didn't feature a spell which didn't have a chargeup time which could be reduced through the use of special items or by leveling the skill.

The ones that I can do things differently altogether; Armada Online, where all abilities instantly take effect but instead have varying degrees of delay before they can be reused, and Space Cowoy/Air Rivals/Flysis, which does the same thing (casting time would be DEADLY in a 3D flight sim MMO).

I don't mind the casting time and I don't mind that the game plays with that, allowing people to trade speed for power or vice versa. What I DON'T like is the tech loading--it's never a problem with melee or ranged weapons, but loading techs can be a pain, especially when you're trying to buff a random party but they're already killing monsters before your buffs could load.

Despite that, I can't tell if Sychosis is being sarcastic or not, considering how much value people put into eye candy, and the kind of positive "OMG I WANT THAT" reactions I've seen to the 41+ techs. People do find them stunning and visually impressive. More than anything, the techs change and evolve graphically, which I think is a plus. It's also a indicator of what tier the tech is, so I think it does serve a practical purpose.

Then again, it's hilarious to see people's response to a Team Fortress 2 interview that explains their art direction and the practical reasons for the style and design of the classes:

"dude, if u are all about the grafix, go ask ur mama for 500 bucks and buy ur self ps3..."

[Kent]

MMOs off to the side (since we're talking PSU), a lot of online RPGs, be they action or otherwise, have some sort of delay when casting a spell... Actually, there are basically no real RPGs out there that have instantaneous spellcasting.

PSU has it, PSO has it, Diablo has it, Diablo II has it... Most action-RPGs have it (Kindgom Hearts, Crystal Chonicles, Crisis Core, etc.).

Reason being, that "magic" and magic-like abilities are generally defined by a few choice things.


They use some form of resource when the ability is triggered.
They usually have some form of element associated with the damage, to differentiate it from normal attack damage.
It consumes additional time to use, as opposed to normally attacking.
These sorts of things are apparent in magic-like abilities in basically all games, though. Very rarely are magic-like abilities ever instantaneous (FFTA), cost no resources (Revenant Wings), or are mostly indifferent to normal sorts of attacking.

In most cases, however, magic and magic-like abilities are made powerful or helpful enough to offset the additional costs in resources and time...

But again, we're talking PSU here.

[CelestialBlade]

Every Foie should do 9999 damage even at level 1, should have a negative cast time so you actually cast like three every time you cast, and should make you gain 300 levels every time you use it.

Whiiiiiiiiiinetechers.

Cast time is not a big issue in this game, at all. A well-built techer should be able to do more than enough damage with a good level Ra-technic that you should easily be able to afford to use a /quick unit.

[Weeaboolits]

Every Foie should do 9999 damage even at level 1, should have a negative cast time so you actually cast like three every time you cast, and should make you gain 300 levels every time you use it.

Whiiiiiiiiiinetechers.

Cast time is not a big issue in this game, at all. A well-built techer should be able to do more than enough damage with a good level Ra-technic that you should easily be able to afford to use a /quick unit.You know damn well that's not what I meant.

My point is they aren't strong enough to warrant a delay that long, particularly gi-techs which are very slow and have very short range and then don't do all that much damage to make up for it, without a quick, they're slow enough to make them near useless on anything remotely aggressive.

Also, I'd like to have an actual good reason to use something other than a quick, otherwise what's the point of having them at all? I could equip a unit to boost my tech power, but it wouldn't help much if it cuts my speed in half, and it's not like I do much more damage with techs on a newman than I could melee, and melee is generally much faster, the only time I ever use anything but a quick is on non-techers, or casts or beasts that only buff and resta.

And don't take this as whining about melee, I primarily play that, I'd just like to see a bit better balancing. Sure, I can deal with it, yes, but I can't say it won't annoy me.

[CelestialBlade]

I agree that Gi-techs are pretty much useless now, I'm not entirely sure why ST thought it'd be a good idea to nerf those yet make Ra-techs disgustingly powerful, plus adding the ability to hit 4 targets. Gi-techs were especially great for Wartechers, who can actually afford to be in the middle of things, so that just further nerfed that class. I don't mind the power cut too much but I do mind the range getting nerfed so badly. The fact that they're slow just makes it worse.

In my opinion, /quick units are more useful for support. Now that we have very strong TP-boosting units, you should be able to equal or surpass the DPS of a given technic with a /quick unit with them. I admit I haven't experimented with this exact study, but I've used some of the stronger TP-boosting units and I see it easily possible. This will be especially true on Masterforces, because the gain you get out of using a /quick unit with them is far less than using one on a Fortetecher, yet TP is a linear gain. I'd definitely use a Red/Force or something as a Masterforce.

[amtalx]

Tech damage vs. casting delay is fine. Leveled techs are very powerful. I like Gi- techs, and with an Acrotecher, the casting speed is off the map. If you want super speed with a Fortetecher, you are playing the wrong class.

[stukasa]

I don't really mind the casting delay but I see your point about being stuck with Quick units. It's not even about DPS for me, it's just so much more fun to play a techer with a Quick unit than without one. Using a rod without a Quick unit is, well, painful. Once MF comes out things will get better because of the speed boost and S-rank Madoogs but I have a feeling I'll still use a Har/Quick simply because more speed is always more fun. :lol:

Also, I agree with F-Gattaca about the tech loading times, it's annoying to load all my techs every block. Sometimes I forget and then my Reverser isn't loaded during a critical time and I have to rely on Sol Atomizers. >.<

[Weeaboolits]

Really, the reason it started bugging me was the fact that masterforce won't be able to take advantage of a tech pp save without giving up their quick, also the normal TP units are pretty useless, since charge units are stronger, and non-techer classes with access to r-mags have more use for them than dedicated techers, and don't have a casting cost to worry about, making charge units better, I only use non-quicks on techers if they're not using attack techs, like my guntecher.

It's partly how backwards the delays are, gi-techs which aren't terribly useful as it stands have a long delay, while the dam techs which are much more useful have none, ra techs which are more useful than gi, and have more range have a shorter delay, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense as it stands, they need to stop and look at it, really.

Later on, we'll of course be getting th units for extended range, but those mean giving up your quick too, which doesn't make the added range especially useful, since the tech was gonna take longer to get over there anyway.

Not saying the delay should necessarily be completely eliminated, just reduced a tad bit, particularly gi.

Also, as far as tech loading, it's particularly obnoxious on PS2, since changing rods and back can unload your techs as well, in addition to having to worry about your rod style unloading.

[Sychosis]

Despite that, I can't tell if Sychosis is being sarcastic or not, considering how much value people put into eye candy, and the kind of positive "OMG I WANT THAT" reactions I've seen to the 41+ techs. People do find them stunning and visually impressive. More than anything, the techs change and evolve graphically, which I think is a plus. It's also a indicator of what tier the tech is, so I think it does serve a practical purpose.

110% serious. I've never been wowed by any of the TECHNIC appearances. I find them obnoxious and over the top. I value efficiency over purtty lights. Function over fashion. If people want to gawk over the "zomg colors! <33" they can go have a short attention span somewhere else.

The needlessly large, slowdown inducing light shows we call TECHNICs are probably the only form of attack in the game that affects game performance so profoundly that I couldn't even turn my camera when casting Gizonde without my frame rate taking a nosedive. Have a friend who likes to sling techs? No sweat, run frameskip 1. Only now your own skills suffer with less range thanks to the wonderful programming at SEGA.

I wouldn't have a problem with their appearance if SEGA coded the game so it didn't shit itself when there is dust in the area. But as it stands, they didn't and they don't plan to change it so they can take their laser light show and shove it. I'd rather not burden my own team with my very presence.

Also, if you think they look good, I suggest you play some other M/MO/RPGs for a bit.

[Nitro Vordex]

It's fucking lightning, the hell do you people want. :E

[F-Gattaca]

110% serious. I've never been wowed by any of the TECHNIC appearances. I find them obnoxious and over the top. I value efficiency over purtty lights. Function over fashion. If people want to gawk over the "zomg colors! <33" they can go have a short attention span somewhere else.

There we have it, then. Funny thing, too, a complaint I've come across while playing MMOs is that the "nukers" don't get attacks worthy of being called a nuke, graphically or practically.

I recall that you're a 360 player. Did you have the same problem on PC/PS2?

Playing the PC version, the only slowdown I had was when I was on a computer that couldn't even run modern games, with Frameskip at 1--it usually happened as a consequence of effect-intensive areas like the Firebreak missions.

The upgrades I got for my computer have made it so that PSU runs smooth with no frameskip and looks pretty good, not to mention allowing me to play other, far more graphically intense games at their recommended settings.


Also, if you think they look good, I suggest you play some other M/MO/RPGs for a bit.

I've played World of Warcraft, Ragnarok Online, Anarchy Online (and will again when they get the engine upgrade), Armada Online, Space Cowboys, and A Tale in the Desert. I've given City of Heroes and Tabula Rasa a brief whirl as well.

You probably haven't seen my posts where I've repeatedly said that I'm able to tolerate the screwups that've occured on PSU thanks to my experiences on other MMOs.

Still find my opinion invalid?

EDIT: Oh, and I should add that I'm the type that will run games at reasonably high settings as long as it doesn't turn my framerate down to 5 frames per second--so even on my old setup, I had all these games running at something that was NOT bare minimum quality.

[Sychosis]

There we have it, then. Funny thing, too, a complaint I've come across while playing MMOs is that the "nukers" don't get attacks worthy of being called a nuke, graphically or practically.

That's their problem, not mine.


I recall that you're a 360 player. Did you have the same problem on PC/PS2?

Why yes, I did. You can remedy the situation to an extent on PC. But increasing the frameskip has the hilarious side effect of reducing melee PA effectiveness. GG SEGA. For PS2 and 360 players, there is no fixing what should never have been a problem in the first place.


You probably haven't seen my posts where I've repeatedly said that I'm able to tolerate the screwups that've occured on PSU thanks to my experiences on other MMOs.

It could also be that you're just a fanboy. Not saying you are or aren't, but it's just as likely. Seeing as I don't trail you all day.


Still find my opinion invalid?

Maybe you can help me here...I seem to have misplaced the post where I first said it was :-?

[F-Gattaca]

It's fucking lightning, the hell do you people want. :E

Greased lightning!


It's partly how backwards the delays are, gi-techs which aren't terribly useful as it stands have a long delay, while the dam techs which are much more useful have none, ra techs which are more useful than gi, and have more range have a shorter delay, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense as it stands, they need to stop and look at it, really.

I do see what you're saying here. If warmup times were changed, the gi series of techs would have more use as a "panic button" for techers of every flag or as a compliment to the WT getting in there and mixing it up.

Personally, though, I prefer Regrants as my panic button of choice--can't argue against a tech that turns you into a living bomb. I'll even use it on light-element enemies if I need them to get off my back or if I need to corral them.


Also, as far as tech loading, it's particularly obnoxious on PS2, since changing rods and back can unload your techs as well, in addition to having to worry about your rod style unloading.

Damn. Yeah, I have to question whether or not it really was wise to have PSU on PS2--with the way things are going, I'm wondering if the PS2 will even be able to handle any possible future expansions. They might need to bump things up to the PS3 or something.


That's their problem, not mine.

That much is obvious. You have a different problem altogether.

Bringing it up is important nevertheless to contrast the general pressure to make nuking spells "mean something" compared to the reverse from you.


Why yes, I did. You can remedy the situation to an extent on PC. But increasing the frameskip has the hilarious side effect of reducing melee PA effectiveness. GG SEGA. For PS2 and 360 players, there is no fixing what should never have been a problem in the first place.

Well, that's odd. Back when I had been running with my previous computer setup, I never noticed any decrease in effectiveness with melee PAs. I don't quite get where you're coming from on that.

The only thing I noticed--aside from slowdown due to my computer's inability to handle modern games well--is that the frameskip sometimes causes PSU to 'ignore' input if it happens right when a frame is skipped. However, I only noticed it when trying to type and/or take screenshots; words typed in wouldn't reach the client fully formed sometimes, and screenshots didn't always save.

Since I can now run PSU at full speed with no ill effect, that problem dissapeared.

Is that what you're referring to?


It could also be that you're just a fanboy. Not saying you are or aren't, but it's just as likely. Seeing as I don't trail you all day.

Of course you don't, but you post here at PSOW, and you've probably been reading and posting (in) threads outside of Dead Horse Society. Therefore, there was a chance that you might have seen me talking about playing other MMOs in the past, hence why I said what I said.

Now as to your calling me a fanboy ... Considering you appear to call anyone who still plays PSU a "sucker" ("suckers are throwing money at their feet the whole time they do it") I suppose that people who disagree with you are liable to be called this, or worse.

You can only assume I'm a fanboy if you also assume that PSU is the only MMO I continue to play. Thing is, I keep up with several MMOs out of the list I mentioned--I'm not a fanatical 24/7 MMO gamer, but I play on a semi-regular basis, and not just PSU. I usually rotate out which games I am currently paying to play, unless it's a beta or something.

Playing a game because you like it and have fun with it is a far cry from being a fanboy. Playing enough MMOs to experience screwups to the point that you can accept that they can and will happen, such that events like with MAG don't turn you into a Fan Hater, is also a far cry from being a fanboy.

Of course, Fan Haters don't (care to) recognize the distinction and prefer to label anyone who continue to play or like the game "sheep" or "suckers" or "fanboys" or whatnot.

Too Long Didn't Read version: It's desensitization, not fanboyism. It's going to happen no matter what MMO you play, so you might as well pick ones you have fun playing.

Are there things that'd make me stop playing PSU? Yes, just as it would if they happened on other MMO--but see, they haven't happened yet.


Maybe you can help me here...I seem to have misplaced the post where I first said it was :-?

Well, I did quote the part of the post in question--you know, where you said "Also, if you think they look good, I suggest you play some other M/MO/RPGs for a bit."

See, the way you said it carries the subtext of "You don't know what good graphics are because you've only played PSU. If you played other M/MO/RPGs for a bit, you would know what good graphics are." That works to discredit the opinions of people who don't find the appearance of PSU's TECHs repulsive.

Considering I was defending the appearance of PSU's techs, that pretty much includes me as one of those whom you should think should go play other MMORPGs for a bit to get a better sense of good graphics. So it's only natural that, to prove your statement and its subtext wrong, I list the MMORPGs I've played before/continue to play.

After all, it's harder to discredit a guy who obviously plays other MMOs and still find's PSU's graphics good, right? Then again, I'm not the type to demand that games must meet Crysis' box-melting standards. PSU gets by with simpler tricks and it works pretty well from an artistic standpoint.

[Seority]

-skips text wall-
PS3 DOES load faster then the PS2. By like four seconds mainly, but it's still WAAAAAY nicer to me. (Even though DreX doesn't like it, but he's on the fancy computer and can't say too much lol.)

I only level techs for the looks anyway. Common, level 50 Ra-Foie? That shyts just hot. Sadly they arn't very affective as of now, but the future is full of mystery. Also techers are fun to play when you feel like being lazy lol.

[Sychosis]

That much is obvious. You have a different problem altogether.

Bringing it up is important nevertheless to contrast the general pressure to make nuking spells "mean something" compared to the reverse from you.

By all means let SEGA make them "mean something." As long as they don't have a meaning that equates to "ROFLSLOOOOOWDOOOOOOWN! :D :D :D" I'm fine with them.


Is that what you're referring to?No actually it is not. These are what I'm referring to:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl0_zo4QugQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22gq4k6sZk


Of course you don't, but you post here at PSOW Not really. Seeing as I don't play PSU anymore :/

Don't get me wrong, which you seem to be doing a lot, but I would love to still be playing. Unfortunately our thresholds for acceptable blunders vary.


Now as to your calling me a fanboyOh boy, here we go. Even after saying I don't know if you are or not since I haven't followed your posting history, we'll just assume the worst. What can go wrong?

As for calling people suckers. You're only a sucker if you hand SEGA your money for sub-par service and blindly accept it! If you complain about things, that's great! Vote with your wallet. Most of my friends still play PSU. Do I think them suckers? Not at all. They recognize the imbalances in the game, the lack of answers SEGA brings when responding to why their latest update fumbled.

Once again, I do not know if you qualify for my opinion of a sucker, because I have 0 idea whether you complain about the game or SEGA's handling of it at all. Or happily let them have your money while you get 065'd without complaint.

Now let me make this clear. I did not just call you a sucker simply because I said you might be.


Well, I did quote the part of the post in question--you know, where you said "Also, if you think they look good, I suggest you play some other M/MO/RPGs for a bit."

See, the way you said it carries the subtext of...Lord help me. I didn't enter this topic in argument mode and never intended to get into an argument. So now I have to word things very specifically lest they become misconstrued as direct insults. Watch me now, I'm actually about to make a statement you an infer something negative about you from: Are you paranoid?

That doesn't invalidate your opinion at all. Nothing can. It's an opinion.

You are more than entitled to your opinion. You can have it, and express it as much as you want. If you feel PSU's graphics are fine, be my guest and enjoy them. In my opinion however, what you consider good is what I consider basic and unimpressive. Good for the type of game they're in maybe. But good on the whole? Or even good considering the strain they put on a PC/360? If you think so, fine by me, but do yourself a favor and look at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOsz7kG7HjU before claiming so.

I'm not sure why you're getting all flustered. I don't know you outside of that "there's no such thing as easy mode" topic you made a while back. And truth be told, I only remember it because *I* posted in it. But I don't have a reason to argue with you. I don't know why you felt the need to question the veracity of my opinion in the first place.

Whatever the reason, I'm stopping it here. I have no desire to keep Ronin's topic derailed any further with long winded essays.

[F-Gattaca]

Well, I was going to post my reply here until I saw what you said at the end.
I still have inquiries and clarifications to make, yet I also don't want to derail RC's topic any further.

Therefore, I'll just make a new thread (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2038855#post2038855) and fix that problem right up.

As for the topic at hand, I was thinking about something ... The whole "panic button" thing I mentioned in my previous post (which apparently was blown off with the rest of it as a 'wall of text' by people sticking to the topic ... ).

What if TECH cast delays varied by class type? If Sega added further tweaks to the type system so that the five non-basic teching types had different kinds of casting delay for each kind of tech, what would you guys think?

Aside from the varying type caps for support and attack among "pure techer" types, that might help differentiate types further, kind of like what it was back in the days of PSO. Maybe.

[The_Great_Sebrof56]

Har / Quick

[Weeaboolits]

Har / Quick

Please do read the posts next time.

[Kent]

I must say, Sychosis, that I do agree with your example as to how horribly-programmed PSU's graphics engine is, compared to what a 360 is capable of doing easily.

That is, on the 360, it's essentially poorly emulating a poorly programmed PS2 game... And that kinda stacks up.

And then Lost Odyssey looks abolutely beautiful, with no sign of a framerate drop aside from those funky multi-cut cutscenes that cause the entire scene to be rendered several times in unison.