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View Full Version : Topic Junction #1284, now heading to Eyecandyville and Slowdown Central



F-Gattaca
Jun 5, 2008, 11:29 AM
This is a split off of Ronin Cooper's topic (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2038787#post2038787). The exchange between Sychosis and I was starting to dominate Ronin's thread, and Sychosis didn't want to derail the thread further.

Neither do I, really, but I still want to talk with him on this, so there you go.

Did I mention I like how this new VBulletin system automatically links to the exact post you're quoting when you use the quote button, even if it's in another topic? That's awesome.


By all means let SEGA make them "mean something." As long as they don't have a meaning that equates to "ROFLSLOOOOOWDOOOOOOWN! :D :D :D" I'm fine with them.

No actually it is not. These are what I'm referring to:

Okay, wow. That IS weird. I'm totally BSing here since I'm no programmer, but my guess is that it would have to do with the way animations are done in the game.

Though, I'm curious as to whether or not this is more of an illusion caused by the client and not a wholly limiting quirk. What I mean to ask is by that is, is it proven that actually shortens the distance at which you hit monsters and not just the physical distance seen on-screen? I couldn't quite tell by the video ... and the way PSU's client talk to the server, and its netcode in general, causes some pretty wonky quirks.

Those glitches turned the Carriguine Room in MAG into an example on how to make tossed salad ... to say nothing of their short despawn radius for (and the size of) that room making them far more dangerous than they normally are.


Don't get me wrong, which you seem to be doing a lot, but I would love to still be playing. Unfortunately our thresholds for acceptable blunders vary.

Of course. Watching the way the community reacted to things prior to and including the FUBAR last month demonstrated a lot about the various tolerances in people who play this particular game. And I mean that as in, you could literally see a gradient reaction, like watching a bag of popcorn pop.

Although a bag of popcorn smells and tastes better. Not that I've tried eating any printed-out rants or anything.


Oh boy, here we go. Even after saying I don't know if you are or not since I haven't followed your posting history, we'll just assume the worst. What can go wrong?

Well, snark and sarcasm can be pretty hard to separate from a sincere statement. Now, I know that quite well, but I felt it was important to address it and put it to bed anyway, so as to leave no doubt. Keep in mind where we're having this discussion, after all.


As for calling people suckers ...

And you've adequately adressed that. You've put my mind at ease there.


Lord help me. I didn't enter this topic in argument mode and never intended to get into an argument.

Believe it or not, I feel exactly the same way.


Watch me now, I'm actually about to make a statement you an infer something negative about you from: Are you paranoid?

"Paranoia is the wind beneath my wings, sir. (http://schlockmercenary.com/d/20080605.html)"

Kidding aside, I'm more obsessed with trying to be thorough than I am paranoid. My posts aren't quite known for their brevity, here or elsewhere.


Good for the type of game they're in maybe. But good on the whole? Or even good considering the strain they put on a PC/360? If you think so, fine by me, but do yourself a favor and look at something different before claiming so.

See that first sentence in that quote snippet? You pretty much got me right there.

I'm not the type to claim that PSU's graphics are better than, say, Crysis. I'm just saying they don't look like crap.

PSU's graphics don't rock Crysis' house, that's for sure, but I think they look good for the kind of game we're dealing with. That's how I feel about your linking me to Lost Odyssey videos; that's a turn-based RPG where they can get away with apocalyptic FMV cutscene-type spells. I'm willing to bet that allows them to pull a trick or two to squeeze out some more eye candy from what the 360 offers in prowess.

Just a note: My new system setup doesn't "rev up" even with PSU on its maximum settings. When I am playing Half-Life 2 or other Source Engine games on high-end settings, Supreme Commander, Universe At War: Earth Assault, Command and Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars, or Company of Heroes, the computer will invariably get hot in the process (and the fans turn into jet engines). It doesn't happen with PSU, though.


I'm not sure why you're getting all flustered. I don't know you outside of that "there's no such thing as easy mode" topic you made a while back.

Actually, to clarify what you're remembering: It wasn't so much "there's no such thing as easy mode" as it was "the game isn't a carebear easymode-only experience like everyone claims it is. There are challenges if you look fr them." It's not the same thing as saying there is no easy mode in the game.

As far as this exchange, you were more or less answering a question I had about something you mentioned in passing. If I seem irritated, it's for similar reasons I was irritated when I made that thread you spoke of. But if you can believe it, I'm trying NOT to sound pissy about this, because you've at least been more civil about it than other people I could name ...

CelestialBlade
Jun 5, 2008, 12:07 PM
I do like PSU's graphics, for the most part. Some of the high-level Technics look nice, but most of them are pretty obnoxious. I still think you could solve that problem with an option to tone down Technic effects in the Options menu. Now, I'm no programmer and I don't know how easy that would be, but it'd be nice. I'm sure a lot of PS2 players would be very grateful.

I've got a pretty decent machine and nothing seems to make it "rev up" while playing PSU, but I have noticed that during some areas (like Dulk Fakis' 2nd form) my processor usage will shoot way the fuck up on both cores. Processor usage is also what limits my PSU gameplay on my single-core laptop. Just seems to be a very processor-intensive game, as my GPU feels almost no load.

Sekani
Jun 5, 2008, 12:57 PM
PSU is one of the most badly-optimized games I've ever played. The spell effects in particular aren't so spectacular that they should grind all but the most powerful PCs on the planet (and both the PS2 and 360) to a near halt. Don't get me started on the random slowdown just from walking through certain areas (like block 3 in HSM).

Weeaboolits
Jun 5, 2008, 01:02 PM
Yeah, they should rework the code if ever they make another expansion, I shouldn't be going half speed in an empty tunnel on Bruce.

F-Gattaca
Jun 5, 2008, 01:10 PM
Actually, er, Sekani, my computer's new setup isn't anywhere near top-end ... My computer puts way more effort into running games like the ones I listed above than PSU. And I'm pretty sure my computer would melt trying to run Crysis. Seriously, the way the computer "revs up" with the really intensive stuff is a bit scary to me.

So ... yeah.

On the other hand, it was pointed out to me that the majority of gamers don't actually have computers that fit somewhere in the required and recommended specs for PSU. I didn't when I started playing, that's for sure--but even then the game was mostly comfortable to play with a frameskip of 1. Back then, it only became a problem when in a full-party mission that had a majority of techers..

Typheros, do you get any kind of serious slowdown with your setup?

Powder Keg
Jun 5, 2008, 03:26 PM
My PC is a little old, and I have to run on Frameskip 2 to have no slowdown.

As far as techs go, I don't let it get to me very much, but I have to admit Rafoie, Gizonde, and a few others are just awful when it comes to slowdown. And level 5 is on the way soon.

McLaughlin
Jun 5, 2008, 07:59 PM
PSU's got the worst slowdown I've ever experienced in a game. The slowdown all but the most basic spells cause is absurd, and randomly slowing down to 10 FPS in an empty room is pathetic.

It's the only game I have where I can hear the disc drive. It's inexcusable to have issues of this magnitude in a game of mediocre graphics like it has (and the clipping is brutal too) on a console like the 360 or on a decent PC.

EDIT: I reread the topic, and I'd like to discuss your "tolerance thanks to MMO experience."

I've seen your stance before. Other games have problems too. I'm well aware of that. Other games have big problems. I'm aware of that too.

Name me an MMO (a well-known one, that you had to pay monthly for) that has had issues of the variety and magnitude of PSU's. Bonus points if you can name one programmed as poorly, or managed by a company better at ignoring its playerbase than SEGA.

F-Gattaca
Jun 6, 2008, 04:42 AM
Here's some irony. I had some severe weather today. When I was writing this post, the power went out and wasn't restored until just a few hours ago.

For reference--before I had to rebuild my computer earlier this year (video card finally gave up the ghost), it was last rebuilt in 2004. Back then, it was only mid-range among the kind of parts available at that time ...

It couldn't even handle Starsiege: 2845 at ALL with the old setup.


Name me an MMO (a well-known one, that you had to pay monthly for) that has had issues of the variety and magnitude of PSU's. Bonus points if you can name one programmed as poorly, or managed by a company better at ignoring its playerbase than SEGA.

I'll give you two which I have personal experience with, which I feel are the most effective examples I can think of: Ragnarok Online and Anarchy Online.

Ragnarok Online probably has the sad distinction of being one of the most pirated MMORPGs in existence (thanks to the company hosting China's RO servers screwing up big-time and exposing the server software for all to see ... ), which has seriously hurt the game--but putting aside that, it has had a lot of players and a lot of knockoff MMOs that try to copy its formula and style, much like WoW and Everquest have theirs. RO was/is wildly popular in Japan, enough for it to have spawned a Japanese fan-game that got recognized and sponsored by Gravity ... as well as its own anime series.

Ragnarok Online was doing alright early on until the main Korean servers went P2P. Then Gravity got hacked by a group of furious script kiddies who wanted RO to remain free--the company lost most of their working data, nearly went bankrupt, and had to close down non-Korean servers, until Samsung bought them. iRO came back later that year.

Early on, customer relations with Gravity LLC (the subsidiary set up to host iRO after what happened) were pretty bad. One 'memorable' incident--the GMs banned someone for reporting the existence of a bug, claiming he exploited it. For a while, you couldn't really talk to the GMs for fear of what might happen--if anything at all.

That, however, did change for the better (mostly) as time went on and they started hiring GMs native to the U.S./Canada. There have still been problems with GM corruption--in fact, last year on iRO there was a scandal where one GM was exposed as part of a major iRO Chaos guild and was actually abusing her powers to help that guild out. As a result, Gravity LLC fired practically all of the sub-GM team since no one blew the whistle (until players discovered it themselves and raised hell).

But at least Gravity did something about the corrupt GMs rather than just let it slide, compared to, say, EVE online. Since it would further address your challenge to me to provide examples of bungling by companies running the MMORPGs, you really should look at this article on Escapist Online (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/op-ed/847-Jumpgate-EVE-s-Devs-and-the-Friends-They-Keep) about the EVE Online incident, which they have termed "what could be the most blatant case of developer misconduct in years."

Oh, and then there are the hacking incidents that hit RO--it was my first experience with a major FUBAR in an MMO that actually had me stop playing after a while until I found out some things later on. Around 2003 or so, some script kiddies exploited a then-recently announced vulnerability in the server system RO uses--along with an error from installing the server software. They were able to wreak havoc in the game and ravage player characters, on a level that was much MUCH worse than Broomop and Nugz' room raiding here in PSU. These guys were ransacking people's accounts by logging into them, dumping their items and zeny, and deleting their characters. Even worse, the kiddies publically released the list of accounts and passwords, so very few people got out of that without having some griefer try and take their stuff.

The GMs finally got it under control (after like three rollbacks to undo the damage done), but the kiddies nevertheless did some lasting damage to player confidence that would be hard to reverse. On top of that, they also pulled a major bluff. They claimed to have the billing information of all of iRO's players, and gloated on the major communities that they were going to sell it to identity thieves. This turned out to be false--no one suffered from identity theft, and the billing information wasn't handled by Gravity at that point in time. They got nowhere near it ... and yet it was enough to make me and many others stop playing at that point in time--until I learned about the truth later on the year it happened.

---

As for Anarchy Online ... To my knowledge, that's one of the first sci-fi MMORPGs ever, although PSO predates its NorthAm release by half a year. It still is one of the more popular MMOs around to this day, despite the problems it's suffered. Similar to RO's anime series, AO was popular enough to warrant a novel of its own. At its peak it had some 60,000 players. Anarchy Online had an incredibly rough start that might have killed it off entirely. Some of these problems still persist:

Initially insecure registration.
(In other words, your billing info was vulnerable when you registered early on.)

CD key errors and login issues similar to Error 065 here in PSU, and there are claims that it still happens to people seven years in.
(And then there's the fact the login server was incapable of handling the strain put upon it, meaning many were denied access to AO due to timed out requests)

Dozens of in-game bugs and stability issues.
(We're talking spontaneous crashes that happened so frequently as to make playing the game highly difficult.)

Serious lag and frame-rate problems.
(Funcom wrote the game in such a way that it was RAM intensive, often hogging all of it. And then there was the havoc AO played upon users with ATI video cards ... )

Oh, and good luck getting help from a GM if you need it. They might be nice guys (as evidenced by one of my friend's encounters), but the in-game support ticket system is a bitch. My group had to request the help of a GM for a problem we encountered. We waited almost an entire day and our ticket never got a response--it wasn't a case of GM request overload as much as the ticket system always pushing our request back.

And this was after Funcom hired a second company to handle this kind of thing because they couldn't do it themselves. (Funny thing. This company--Themis Group (http://www.themis-group.com/)--apparently also works with Sega.)

When Shadowlands--AO's first expansion--was released, there was groaning over the reuse of monster models. Oh, and you might find this snippet interesting from one such review of the game, since it sounds so much like most of the people on this thread:

" This inconsistency is less apparent in some of the later playfields, but is always noticeable, even with a top-of-the-line gaming PC. The polygon engine, while visually stunning, is clearly un-optimized, resulting in massive overuse of system resources and incredible variations on frame rate."

The height of my AO playtime was around 2004~2005, when I had a group of friends there with me ... and I still encountered some of these problems--lag and framerate inconsistency the most. Even running the game at bare minimum didn't guarantee that it would run smoothly, and I couldn't stand to play the game at those levels anyway.

Be glad PSU never had a lag symptom where you would be yanked backwards a great distance, putting you in the middle of mobs that just spawned, that you were trying to avoid, or trying to run away from.

I still played it despite all that, and so have thousands of other players. I've continued to keep tabs on the game, and there is still a strong paying population there. As I plan to return to the game once their new graphics engine is added, I'll be able to see how the game is doing eight/nine years out.

---

So. Does this satisfy you?

CelestialBlade
Jun 6, 2008, 10:13 AM
Typheros, do you get any kind of serious slowdown with your setup?
The answer to that question has interesting results.

Back when I first got AoI, I immediately noticed I slowed down a *lot* more during the Dulk Fakis fight (2nd phase), especially if I ran full-screen. Since then I have upgraded my GPU (Geforce 7600GT 256mb -> 8600GT 512mb) and RAM (2gb PC26400 -> 4gb PC26400) but I've noticed little to no change in how much that battle lags the shit out of me. What's more interesting is that changing graphical intensity settings in PSU's Options menu, including disabling Post Effects, doesn't change much. I run about the same at max settings as minimum. Frameskip helps to an extent, but I can't stand anything aside from 0, heh.

Now, this fight lags me whether I'm in full-screen or windowed 1024x768. Areas that lag me in fullscreen, but NOT in windowed, include the tree-lined tunnels in Raffon Meadow and some areas of the Mizuraki/Saguraki reserve.

I'd also like to mention that not only do Dambarta and Rafoie blind the shit out of me, they induce slowdown too. And as stated before, most of the load from this game appears to be going to my 2.4ghz AMD Athlon x2 dual-core processor. That really speaks for the poor graphical optimization of this game.

Shiro_Ryuu
Jun 6, 2008, 10:20 PM
I have to say that I experience plenty of slowdown when I fight the De Ragnus (it's been around since V1 actually) or when I do White Beast or any of the Rozenom missions (that means no Scarred Planet, Lightning Beasts, or Egg Thieves for me :disapprove:), which really sucks. I can do most other missions except for those.

McLaughlin
Jun 7, 2008, 12:23 AM
Yeah, those were pretty good examples (I stay away from those korean MMO's, but eh). I can't say it changes my mind on whether or not this kind of service is acceptable though.

Darkly
Jun 7, 2008, 11:35 AM
saying other games suck isn't justification for this horrible game though.

McLaughlin
Jun 7, 2008, 12:27 PM
saying other games suck isn't justification for this horrible game though.

I agree. Regardless of who's in charge, the playerbase shouldn't expect things to go wrong. A slip-up here or there is understandable, but major screw-ups on every update or maintenance they do? There was a period there where they weren't even sure what we were coming back online with in terms of content.