What Wartecher changes are coming?

[Sega011]

Is it just the technic cap increase? I'm either going to play WT or Fortegunner on my CAST. I must say that I really enjoyed the WT, but all the bashing here on them disheartens me toward them. GT is supposedly weaker, but better somehow? Anyways, what WT changes are coming? Will they be worth playing then?

[CAVAOUBIEN]

The only thing changing for WT is the buffs/debuffs/heal which will finally be capped at 30 instead of 20. This means WT gets lvl 30 PAs almost accross the board (bullets remain the only exception).

You know, I really don't understand the WT bashing either. It is really an excellent class and, as most hybrid classes, requires a bit more skills and clever use of your palette than the forte classes. You make less damage than a fortefighter or fortetecher, which is probably why it gets bashed by the players who only judge a class by the BIG numbaz (and there are a LOT!) instead of the playstyle and the challenge. A WT's arsenal is a lot more versatile than any of the two forte classes, while the gameplay is significantly different! Playing a beast WT or a human WT will also open up very different perspectives.

I find the human WT to be very close to PSO's HUMAR, as a beast however, you make a lot of melee damage, and you're an ultimate support within the fight (which no other support class can sustain). You're also VERY good for soloing missions, while keeping a high level of challenge because you don't kill everything instantly. In a game which has become quite easy, I welcome that challenge, even if it means I won't farm an item as quickly as others.

As I said, it is more a class for players who like challenge and versatile gameplay, as opposed to BIG numbaz explosions. Because of that I tend to think of it as a class for more experienced players. What I find really intersting, is to see other players reactions to a WT played correctly. There appears to be a common negative perception of the capabilities of the class, but when played correctly in a team, people tend to be verey appreciative of your contribution.

Not that I have to convince you... you obviously like the class.

CAVAOUBIEN
mais... ça va ou bien?

[Sega011]

What does your pallete look like on your beast? I assume it would be similar to what I'd look for on my Cast. Thanks for your reply. :)

[Kizeragi]

Only the support TECH increase as far as i know.
Theres nothing wrong with Wartechers, my Fortetecher plays it when I want her too.
Guntecher only beats out Wartecher due to Xbows.

[Magus_84]

Only the support TECH increase as far as i know.
Theres nothing wrong with Wartechers, my Fortetecher plays it when I want her too.
Guntecher only beats out Wartecher due to Shotgun/Rifle/Laser/Card/Xbow.

Fixed. Though it should be noted that GT has the most PA leveling required to be "effective" of any class in the game.

[Kinako78]

I like WT for the reasons mentioned above. My main has AT capped, but I switch to WT when I'm not in a party now. Increased support techs for WT would make me very happy. :)

[DreXxiN]

WT's are fun to play but all but efficient. Your tech damage is useless when comparing it to your melee damage, which is basically like playing a weaker FF. You can use support techs but all of those are like disposable items with a casting time.

As CAV said if you want a challenge, go for it, but in terms of effectiveness, not so much (Though you can make it work, you'll just be a gimped fortefighter in the end)

Now when 30 support comes, it may also be a whole different story. It would also be a WAY different story if there was "tanking" in this game. If Wartechers had an auto charm, they'd take the most hits for the party, being that their HP is tied with a Fortefighters, and they have the highest physical and magic defense in the game.

[Ken_Silver]

I like Wartecher too and I am not changing. I find it strange how people say that our Tech power is gimped when our TP is higher than our ATP. Nevertheless, our support does reek and I get bombed by players who say: "EewW TiZ LeVAL 2 bUFFs ReKKS" so I gave up buffing my party and decided to get Megistar (personal all 4 buffs) and to make use of the debuff spells.

when we get 30 support that will help out. And maybe in the distant future, Sega will make use of our "defensive" capabilities. As of now, I still get smacked around by various enemies while my other class counterparts take these hits like nothing.

[chaoskila]

I like Wartecher too and I am not changing. I find it strange how people say that our Tech power is gimped when our TP is higher than our ATP. Nevertheless, our support does reek and I get bombed by players who say: "EewW TiZ LeVAL 2 bUFFs ReKKS" so I gave up buffing my party and decided to get Megistar (personal all 4 buffs) and to make use of the debuff spells.

when we get 30 support that will help out. And maybe in the distant future, Sega will make use of our "defensive" capabilities. As of now, I still get smacked around by various enemies while my other class counterparts take these hits like nothing.

wtf thats a first you "like" wartecher?????
you MUST be a human

[Dragwind]

I love Wartecher. Better?

As for the changes, higher support also means taking less damage if you don't have anyone else in the party with higher support. Higher retier, deband, and zodial for more mst, dfp, and evasion. All contribute to your defensive qualities. Cast a quick jellen to reduce physical damage taken (which can be the difference between getting knocked down/back at times). Oh yeah, better Giresta?

[hans4]

im a human WT and i dont see any problem with the class....u get to heal urself and dish out OK damage

[chaoskila]

I love Wartecher. Better?

As for the changes, higher support also means taking less damage if you don't have anyone else in the party with higher support. Higher retier, deband, and zodial for more mst, dfp, and evasion. All contribute to your defensive qualities. Cast a quick jellen to reduce physical damage taken (which can be the difference between getting knocked down/back at times). Oh yeah, better Giresta?

the world has gone mad.
wartcher? sir.
well it is your opinion.
one question? are you a newman.

[SuperChoco]

I'm looking forword to the support update for WT. Unfortunately, fT will get the support update too but at least WT will be on par with GT.

[Dragwind]

Save this discussion for the appropriate thread, this is not the point of the thread.

The OP has asked this: "Anyways, what WT changes are coming? Will they be worth playing then?"

So far, it has been mentioned about the upcoming support.

Share your opinions concerning the question, but do not flame others for their own or attempt to troll. Stay on topic, consider this a warning.

[Magitek_X]

Sega needs to add Technic debuff to make a WT an even better tank.

[Fure_Rakune]

Man!
I had no clue WT was going to receive this kind of PA boost, its kind of disappointing to me as I was a prime Cast WT pre-AOI.
I only switched to GT when AOI came out due to the support capabilities being better, after all, its my role in parties to fulfill the "Restabot / Buffbot" role (which is something I love).
Attack techs mean nothing to me as a WT since at the time my weaponry was multiple 50%'s across the boards with multiple dagger and twin dagger combos in all elements.
Now with their increased weapon capacity and upcoming PA boost, I kinda wish I never made the change.
Oh well, I do damn well as the GunTeching Buffbot I currently am and I'll continue to do so.

[chaostroop3]

Wartehcers a great class, im not a huge fan of them because i love fortetecher/fighter/gunner alot. but there a GREAT class for soloing but dont get the BIG NHUMAS HURHURHUR but make up for it with balance

and about WT being for experianced players i sorta agree but alot of classes are for expereanced players lol (PT expecally)

[Ken_Silver]

[Spoiler-box]
wtf thats a first you "like" wartecher?????
you MUST be a human

Just a brief mention here: Yes. I am a Human Wartecher.
[/Spoiler-box]

As for the update, the level 30 support techs will help the class out. I didn't know about how the defensive buff can keep you from being knocked down, so thanks for the info Dragwind. I recommend buying Megistar if you don't want all 4 defensive buffs to take up space on your palette. This combined with giresta helps out a lot and takes away the HP drain feature of Megistar. Granted Megistar is only 25 PA frags and that's cheap, but Giresta is 99 frags. Get Megistar first.

And also, I agree that we need a Technic debuff. Also a dark debuff would be nice too. The reverse of Megistar, it debuffs all of the enemies' stats, but at the cost of some HP per enemy.

One update that would make sense would be for Wartechers to get exclusive rights to Dizas and Rentis. They are defensive spells after all. Why not give them to the Defensive class? And they wouldn't be overpowered if they can only go up to level 30. That's just an idea that I like. Don't kniw if others will agree though.

[Kinako78]

That's actually not a bad idea, Ken. :)

[Ken_Silver]

That's actually not a bad idea, Ken. :)

Thanks. :D I was waiting for someone to respond to that. :)

[Abashi76]

Yes, I hope the support tech update comes soon. Perhaps also weapons PAs should be raised to 40. I already got my whip PA to level 30, and I'm only about level 35. Whips level up very fast, and yes WTs should use them.

[Tyreek]

I agree with Ken. The use of Dizas/Rentis would be perfect. What other reason is there? They're just sitting in that abyss of unreleased content. If the ones who play make the most support, why can't they have more?

[Dragwind]

It as already been said that Dizas and Rentis will not be released online, so I believe that's out of the question sadly.

[Inazuma]

wartechter changes? the WT type will go from "crappy useless type" to "crappy type that you must suffer w/ for 10 levels before you become MF, and which is otherwise useless."

there are 2 ways to handle those 10 levels of suffering. solo, which will be a pain in the ass and take a long time. or join big parties and feel bad about slowing everyone down.

ive been playing WT lately and i usually apologize when i join a party and ask if its ok for me to stick around and leech MP. being WT is bad enough but im not gonna be an asshole and join parties w/o asking permission first. its the least i can do.

please, no one try to argue w/ me for what i just said. im just speaking the truth. if you must complain about WT sucking, direct your complaints to sonic team, b/c they are the ones to blame for designing WT the way they did.

i think the reqs for the master types should just be lv 10 in the respective forte type. that would make a lot more sense.

[mll]

I can understand why masterforce users are grumpy about having to play WT (It was a bad choice for the requirements if nothing else) but in fairness wartechers stats only start getting somewhere at class level 10 (not that they don't suck afterwards, they just suck a lot less)

[Tyreek]

I've started out as Wartecher the moment I got the required class. I'll admit, the techs aren't that great. But I mostly use techs for defense/distance between my enemy, so I didn't really have much of a problem leveling it. By the time MAG came around, I was nearly 4 levels away from maxing it. It has its uses, you just gotta learn how to adapt to it.

[Almeho]

I love being a Wartecher and I'm glad that we are getting the level 30 support. That's all I know, though. I agree with the inclusion of a 'magic debuff' and adjustments to their defensive stats to further validate the "Offers a strong defense" part. ^^ As for a dream, I would like my sig to happen even if there is no real chance! :lol:

[Akaimizu]

I think it's fair Wartecher getting those level 30 buffs when GTs get 30 attack techs. Wartechers will enjoy added soloing ability, with it as all their stuff will hit harder now. Those 21+ buffs really do make a difference, and it's nice to have yet another alternative character just as apt at support techs.

Backup techers are a serious *win button* in this game. (Yep, I'm using a new cliche phrase now, just because it's a new cliche phrase).

[Inazuma]

Those 21+ buffs really do make a difference.

yep, a 3% stat boost compared to using buff items. you will make a difference by slowing down the party considerably. making em wait around for 3% stat boost and killing monsters very slow. good luck w/ that.

btw, FT's lv 40 buffs are 7% and AT's lv 50 buffs are 10%. at least try to buff while the others are fighting, if possible.

[VectormanX]

WT is awesome as long as you realize that there's a wide selection of weapons you can use to go with those buffs. if you're playing WT and using nothing but techs, THAT"S WRONG!
Unless you're leveling techs, then its ok. but in a serious party, mix it up a bit.
Not using your full arsenal of weapons is like trying to fix a car with only 1 tool.

I love WT and the variety of different attacks i can use. the buffs are the icing on the cake :)

3% is better than no % and buff items. hell, I'd be happy to get buffed by lvl 30 buffs if all i had were buff items. Resta is a added bonus as well, saves me trimates? awesome!

Appreciation is one thing. Being thankless is another.

[Inazuma]

Appreciation is one thing. Being thankless is another.

hey, im very thankful to someone who is helping me. its just that WT would have a very hard time to actually help me. maybe if i am playing as cast MF and doing pathetic damage, the WT could end up bringing the clear time down enough to be honestly helping.

just being completely realistic here, no offense to you in particular vec. but if someone was actually doing more harm than help, its hard to be thankful, right?

lets say i make 1 million meseta per hour as a solo newman MF. a WT joins and now im making only 700k meseta an hour. its kinda weird to be thankful in this situation. if the WT is just trying to level to 10 so he can change to MF and its a temporary thing, i can understand. but it would suck to have that continue for very long.

now what if i am playing as a solo cast MF or some other weaker char and only making 400k meseta an hour. a WT could join and i might end up making 500k meseta per hour. in this situation, the WT is seriously helping me and i will be thankful for it.

*edit* just wanna add that its certainly possible for WT to be played good enough to actually help, its just a lot harder to do. every character combination can ultimately be good and end up helping the party. you should see me play as cast MF. its not THAT bad >_>. well, if i join some other weak chars, i mite be able to really help out. but it gets harder and harder to not be a burden the stronger my teammates are.

[Akaimizu]

yep, a 3% stat boost compared to using buff items. you will make a difference by slowing down the party considerably. making em wait around for 3% stat boost and killing monsters very slow. good luck w/ that.

btw, FT's lv 40 buffs are 7% and AT's lv 50 buffs are 10%. at least try to buff while the others are fighting, if possible.

You do realize I was talking about solo aspects, back there. Particularly with the level 21+ buffs making a difference. In a party, it's always nice to have multiple support techers with abilities around the same level. Especially for covering healing areas in a spread-apart party. Now if someone else, with better buffs, is the primary buffer, then you still relegate use of other support techs.

The question is, how close is the FT and AT buff adjustments behind the FT/WT ones? I'm curious from a timing aspect.

[Tyreek]

Now if someone else, with better buffs, is the primary buffer, then you still relegate use of other support techs.

I agree with this. In most cases, when I'm in a party with another techer, their buffs would usually be better than mine. Its at this point when I will stick with using Giresta/Resta/Reverser to at least become some form of support, than to have them do all the grunt work by themselves.

[panzer_unit]

yep, a 3% stat boost compared to using buff items. you will make a difference by slowing down the party considerably. making em wait around for 3% stat boost and killing monsters very slow. good luck w/ that.

LOL MASSIVE MATH ERROR. Never mind.

[Sekani]

hey, im very thankful to someone who is helping me. its just that WT would have a very hard time to actually help me. maybe if i am playing as cast MF and doing pathetic damage, the WT could end up bringing the clear time down enough to be honestly helping.

just being completely realistic here, no offense to you in particular vec. but if someone was actually doing more harm than help, its hard to be thankful, right?

lets say i make 1 million meseta per hour as a solo newman MF. a WT joins and now im making only 700k meseta an hour. its kinda weird to be thankful in this situation. if the WT is just trying to level to 10 so he can change to MF and its a temporary thing, i can understand. but it would suck to have that continue for very long.

now what if i am playing as a solo cast MF or some other weaker char and only making 400k meseta an hour. a WT could join and i might end up making 500k meseta per hour. in this situation, the WT is seriously helping me and i will be thankful for it.

*edit* just wanna add that its certainly possible for WT to be played good enough to actually help, its just a lot harder to do. every character combination can ultimately be good and end up helping the party. you should see me play as cast MF. its not THAT bad >_>. well, if i join some other weak chars, i mite be able to really help out. but it gets harder and harder to not be a burden the stronger my teammates are.

LOL. The only way any player regardless of class could be a burden is if they went AFK for half the mission. Just being completely realistic here.

[Inazuma]

LOL MASSIVE MATH ERROR. Never mind.

you think 3% is wrong?

ok lets see here. if you are soloing and using items like normal, you have a 15% boost right? so if you normally would do 100 damage, you do 115 w/ the buff items.

ok now if WT joins you and uses their lv 30 buffs (19%), you would do 119 damage right?

solo = 115 damage
w/ WT buffs = 119 damage

whats the difference between 115 and 119? do the math yourself.

[panzer_unit]

you think 3% is wrong?

Actually I posted that even an extra 3% on every other character counts makes the GT count for 18% of the whole team's damage output, which is like their fair share before you even consider their direct damage output.

which is some high-quality BS

3% boost per character x 6 characters per team = 18% of average character damage output... not 18% of average team damage output

A GT's buffs count as 18% of a character on the team, if the GT's direct damage is ~80% of any random expert type, their buffs make it an equal choice for damage (and they can heal & cure in addition to effectively adding a forte's full damage output) to fill the last spot on your roster with a GT.

In comparison a Fortetecher's buffs alone counts as 42% of an average character's damage output, even if they only do 60% the direct damage of a Master class it's still a good idea to fill the last spot on the team with a FT.

An Acrotecher's buffs count as 60% of a full character. They should have an easy time pulling their wieght on a team even if it's all master types.

[Inazuma]

Actually I posted that even an extra 3% on every other character counts makes the GT count for 18% of the whole team's damage output, which is like their fair share before you even consider their direct damage output.

which is some high-quality BS

3% boost per character x 6 characters per team = 18% of average character damage output... not 18% of average team damage output

A GT's buffs count as 18% of a character on the team, if the GT's direct damage is ~80% of any random expert type, their buffs make it an equal choice for damage (and they can heal & cure in addition to effectively adding a forte's full damage output) to fill the last spot on your roster with a GT.

In comparison a Fortetecher's buffs alone counts as 42% of an average character's damage output, even if they only do 60% the direct damage of a Master class it's still a good idea to fill the last spot on the team with a FT.

An Acrotecher's buffs count as 60% of a full character. They should have an easy time pulling their wieght on a team even if it's all master types.


5 players normally do 100 damage each, so its 500 total w/ all 5.
using buff items, the 5 players damage increases 15% to 575.
WT joins and uses lv 30 buffs and the original 5 players are now doing 595 damage.

so whats the difference between 575 and 595? its 3% again. the only way your 18% could be correct is if the WT could re-cast his buff techs over and over and over, each time adding another 3% stat boost.

[panzer_unit]

5 players normally do 100 damage each, so its 500 total w/ all 5.
using buff items, the 5 players damage increases 15% to 575.
WT joins and uses lv 30 buffs and the original 5 players are now doing 595 damage.

so whats the difference between 575 and 595? its 3% again. the only way your 18% could be correct is if the WT could re-cast his buff techs over and over and over, each time adding another 3% stat boost.

You've already hit the 18%...
WT's buff added 20 damage to the party's output, 20 damage is worth 18% of what any individual party member.
If we remember that extra damage everybody is doing all belongs to the WT, filling the sixth spot on the team could go like this:
* forte: 100 damage, 115 with SE2 buffs
* WT: 80 damage, 95 with SE3 buff on himself, plus 20 to the team. 95+20 = 115 damage overall

... of course if you've got TWO WT's on a team, only one can do buffs.
... if you have fewer characters, the WT's buffs don't add enough damage to make up for their lower direct contribution. SE3 buffs are just enough to break even in the very most favorable situation. It would be fun to run a bunch of different numbers... say one character in the party is twice as effective as everybody else, does the WT contribute more than an average party member because some of the best guy's damage is attributed to them?
There are also edge-cases like if the extra buff damage lets one of the fighters one-shot mobs with Jabroga when they couldn't before, or maybe one-shot mobs without using JA if they were already one-shotting them. That's a massive advantage to party effectiveness.

[super_luu]

Giiib WT 40/20/40/30 + S-rank claw and Madoog

Giiib GT 20/40/30/40 + S-rank Card and A-rank whips (like they were supposed to get)

Keep 10/30/40/40 for FT but gib S-rank Madoog.

[Akaimizu]

The significance of the buffs is much higher when the party is doing higher numbers. True, we may be comparing damage in the low 100s. Thing is, pretty much all high-level characters are doing a minimum of 10x that, easily. Pretty much every class.

[Inazuma]

You've already hit the 18%...
WT's buff added 20 damage to the party's output, 20 damage is worth 18% of what any individual party member.
If we remember that extra damage everybody is doing all belongs to the WT, filling the sixth spot on the team could go like this:
* forte: 100 damage, 115 with SE2 buffs
* WT: 80 damage, 95 with SE3 buff on himself, plus 20 to the team. 95+20 = 115 damage overall

... of course if you've got TWO WT's on a team, only one can do buffs.
... if you have fewer characters, the WT's buffs don't add enough damage to make up for their lower direct contribution. SE3 buffs are just enough to break even in the very most favorable situation. It would be fun to run a bunch of different numbers... say one character in the party is twice as effective as everybody else, does the WT contribute more than an average party member because some of the best guy's damage is attributed to them?
There are also edge-cases like if the extra buff damage lets one of the fighters one-shot mobs with Jabroga when they couldn't before, or maybe one-shot mobs without using JA if they were already one-shotting them. That's a massive advantage to party effectiveness.

ok, i understand where you are getting that 18% from. looks like we are saying the same thing here. 3% of a small number isnt much but 3% of a big number makes more of a difference. i know that buff techs are more helpful the more members there are in the party. but there are 2 problems w/ this.

WT's buffs are less useful in smaller parties, which is usually the case in psu. and WT isnt that good at killing monsters compared to FM.

if WT is 80 damage base, 15 added to himself w/ buffs, plus 20 to the team making 115 total, FM would easily be over 200 damage in comparison. no need to increase the stats of the others b/c he contributes so much to the party normally. the other master types would likely contribute over 115 damage as well. i agree that WT can be helpful and everything, just saying that he sux compared to types focused on dealing damage.

on the current eng ver, there are no master types, so WT and other support types arent that bad. the master types are like 50% better than the fortes, so once they come out, WT and similar types suddenly become much worse.