Religion and politics

[Weeaboolits]

I was initially typing this in response to another topic, but it seemed like a bit of a derail, so I gave it its own.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, whenever religion is brought up in politics, this comes to mind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

Whenever they start trying to instill "Christian values" into our legal system I cringe a bit, Christian though I may be, my belief in the freedoms of others to believe whatever they want so long as it isn't hurting anyone outweighs any religious convictions.

Such as the heated debate a bit back about gay marriage, I don't give a fuck if the bible says the earth will explode if two men get married, not everyone holds that belief, and they have every right not to, so keep it the hell out of our laws.

In my opinion anyone who wants to push their own religious views on the nation has no place in office. Freedom of religion was one of this nation's founding ideals, so don't go and try to force anything on people now.

[Sekani]

You just opened Pandora's Box with this topic, you're aware of that, right?

Total separation of church and state won't happen anytime soon in the United States. The large orthodox Christian presence among the voting populace will make sure of that. So yes, religious values will continue to influence politics and policy.

At best we have religious tolerance. The First Amendment rights of Muslims, Scientologists, and others is pretty much the only thing keeping Christian extremists in check. The new internet-age wave of radical atheists are also providing something of a counter-balance in the theater of public opinion.

[KodiaX987]

Religious person wants to place religion everywhere "to save the people".

Non-religious person wants to clear religion from everywhere "to save the people".

Hilarity and tragedies ensue.

[Cracka_J]

Agreed Ronin.

[Sekani]

Religious person wants to place religion everywhere "to save the people".

Non-religious person wants to clear religion from everywhere "to save the people".

Hilarity and tragedies ensue.

These tragedies are too tired to be hilarious anymore.

[Kylie]

I strongly believe that America isn't just for Christians and should be regarded and handled accordingly. But I also understand that religion is often close to who people are and their beliefs, so I try to respect religion-based stances as long as they don't have too much of a negative effect on people that don't share the same religious beliefs.

[Inazuma]

i dont think scams (religion) have a place in politics or anywhere else for that matter.

[CelestialBlade]

The theory of religion has absolutely no place in the logic-based arena of politics, whatsoever. Remember that the church initially got involved in politics for their own personal power. As an agnostic, I personally don't care what invisible man/woman you happen to believe in, but he/she certainly has nothing to do with how a country is run.

[Weeaboolits]

i dont think scams (religion) have a place in politics or anywhere else for that matter.I wouldn't go so far as that, the thing about religion is that it can bring out the best and worst in people, when I was little, my family received a lot of help from our church, also having something to believe in can keep people hopeful and it helps them cope when times get tough. At the same time, you get the fanatical who make a large mess, but then again, any sort of fanatic can cause quite a stir, not just religious, although, it certainly lends itself more to it than some other things.

I'm not saying I'm against religion, just that it doesn't belong in the legal system, that's been tried plenty before, and it often times doesn't turn out the best.

[Cracka_J]

Remember that the church initially got involved in politics for their own personal power.

Exactly. If you want to see how religion runs politics, take a look at the history of Rome.

No thank you.

[Gunslinger-08]

i dont think scams (religion) have a place in politics or anywhere else for that matter.

lol flamebait.

Moving right along, until religeous beliefs stop influencing personal values, you'll never see them truly separate from politics. Politicians use them to gain favor with prospective voters, and attack them later when it's convenient. The founding fathers even referenced "God" in the foundational documents of the US....

That being said, natural-born rights were justified through the existence of this higher being/power, (regardless of how you interpret that) that stood as a moral authority, so the founding fathers did infact involve a "religion", albeit, a very simple one, in the foundation for the country.

The problems arise when you take away the simplicity.

(/off on a tangent:
What I do hate is peoples' ignorance about the founding fathers. They WERE NOT CHRISTIANS, they were DEISTS. There's a difference, and I'm so tired of having people bring that up in discussion.)

[T0m]

[...]religion has absolutely no place in the logic-based arena of politics, whatsoever. [...]

While I don't disagree with both the OP and you about mixing religion and politics, I had to chuckle at the idea of politics being logic based. Few things could be based on emotions, sentiments and popularity more than politics. Far too often, politics seem to lack reason.
But maybe that's just my country's politicians. :wacko:

[Thalui89]

My mind was just screaming Marxism when I saw this topic. *cough* opiate of the masses * cough*

[CelestialBlade]

While I don't disagree with both the OP and you about mixing religion and politics, I had to chuckle at the idea of politics being logic based. Few things could be based on emotions, sentiments and popularity more than politics. Far too often, politics seem to lack reason.
But maybe that's just my country's politicians. :wacko:
By pure definition, it's logic-based. The circus we call modern-day politics, I'm not sure what that is either :P

[Ketchup345]

...
:beer:
Nicely done, especially the last line.


The circus we call modern-day politics, I'm not sure what that is either :PI believe (sadly) that "circus" is the best word for it.

[Blitzkommando]

Firstly, separation of church and state and freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. When over 80% of your population holds a certain religious belief in some level or another you aren't going to magically escape it. And, the more Hispanic immigrants we have in this country, the more impossible that will become with their staunch Catholic-centered culture.

Lastly, logic isn't found in politics in any event. It's primarily emotions, which are often tied to religious, moral, and ethical beliefs of the individual. Emotional issue. Anything involving sex, children, the environment, really anything at all evokes emotions. If you want politics based on logic you need to remove humans from the equation because humans are not reasonable, logical, or predictable.

[Randomness]

If you want politics based on logic you need to remove humans from the equation because humans are not reasonable, logical, or predictable.

People are quite capable of being logical, and are actually quite predictable (Or else ad campaigns wouldn't be nearly so effective, or contain so many common elements). The problem is that people have a tendency to start processing politics with the emotional centers of the brain, instead of the logic centers, which leads to them making illogical justifications in their mind. So of course politicians prefer emotional appeals. Once they have someone hooked on that, they can force-feed all the shitty logic they want down the suckers throat.

Aristotle defined an argument as composed of ethos, pathos, and logos-appeals based on the background of the speaker, emotion, and logic. Emotional appeals have a place in politics, as do the backgrounds of the politicians, but neither does much to help the country.

[Seority]

If I hear anything from politicions its, "Give me moar monies because I said so" kinda deal.
They say, "It's Christian" because so many "christians" just believe it so they give their monies. I guess Christians are rich :shrug:

Nothing recently done is Christian at all. True that our country was founded on Christian beliefs, but things have long since changed to a whole new plafora of things. At least to me.

[afterthoughtz]

Now i dont pride myself on being a big christian, hell where i go to church i'm considerd the big "sinner" of them all. But i will say a couple things about christians that i know for a fact to be true. 1: is if you hate on christians, you have to hate on everyone in world using that logic. Christians have their God, American Indians have their Great Spirits, China has like 12,000 different Gods, Middle East have their own Gods, everyone has one, so if you hate christians for believing in God, Congrats, you hate the world. 2: There are things that happen for christians that cannot be explained, FOR EXAMPLE: My grandma was in the hospital dying from cancer, docter said any minute she would leave us, later that night, 12 men from her church came into the room to pray for her, they was in there close to 2 hours, next day the docters came to us and said they could not explain what was going on, but the cancer was gone! Believe it or not i do, i was little at the time but remember it plain as day. 3rd and final point: Yes this nation was founded on christain beliefs and yes times have changed, it gets further and further away from christianity, but can we say that its changing for the better?? No, the world is twice as SICK as it used to be, you didnt have gangs on street corners, violent shootings in the school, rapists and pedefiles were un-heard of (dosent mean there was none tho)no serial killers going around slaughtering women like they was some kind of trophies and etc. SO can we say that the world is changing for the better, if anyone has half a brain the can look at the world now and how it was and say "No, it is not"

END OF RANT:-P

[Weeaboolits]

no serial killers going around slaughtering women like they was some kind of trophies and etc.Jack The Ripper would like to have a word with you.

[afterthoughtz]

Jack The Ripper would like to have a word with you.
I'm talking about when America was first founded/established or whatever, in the days of Jack, America was already a large running country. Not how it started;-)

[Weeaboolits]

I'm talking about when America was first founded/established or whatever, in the days of Jack, America was already a large running country. Not how it started;-)Well, we did have a period in which we enslaved another ethnic group, is that close enough? The world hasn't gotten any more wicked, the methods are just more advanced.

[afterthoughtz]

Well, we did have a period in which we enslaved another ethnic group, is that close enough? The world hasn't gotten any more wicked, the methods are just more advanced.
I think you miss the point tho, I'm talking about the early days of America, but like i said, i'm not a big christian and am open to other ppls opinions, heck, some of them has actually made my change my thinking, but i still can see that it has gotten worse in america, and christainty is not makin me say that, common sense is. but hey its America, freedom of speech right, you believe different then i do. big deal, i respect peoples opinions if they respect mine:D

EDIT: Allow me to state, that I, in NO WAY, think America is an evil country, or ever has/will be.
And something we can all agree on is....atleast England only taxed us for tea, know we pay taxes on EVRYTHING, what the hell just happened lol

[Solstis]

Well, we did have a period in which we enslaved another ethnic group, is that close enough? The world hasn't gotten any more wicked, the methods are just more advanced.

English, and I believe, the Dutch were responsible for a lot of the slave trade. We just happened to receive a lot of them. And then society never got used to not having them.

I could create a long rant that basically blames European civilization for every current event, but I think people are still getting off on blaming America.

As far as religion and politics go, separating the two requires a despot, basically, Saddam. I think we all know how that worked out for him.

[Weeaboolits]

English, and I believe, the Dutch were responsible for a lot of the slave trade. We just happened to receive a lot of them. And then society never got used to not having them.

I could create a long rant that basically blames European civilization for every current event, but I think people are still getting off on blaming America.

As far as religion and politics go, separating the two requires a despot, basically, Saddam. I think we all know how that worked out for him.I wasn't meaning we were the only ones to do it, or anything of the sort, just pointing out that the evils of mandkind are hardly a new thing, look back across history, atrocities are hardly rare, the United States a little less so than some, simply because it wasn't around as long and just didn't have time to catch up to some other areas.

At any rate, back on topic, the main thing isn't just a desire to keep it out of law, but that it's supposed to be seperate, but quite simply isn't, granted the political system often doesn't conform to what it should be doing.

And you don't need a despot, you just need a politician with enough sense not to try and force beliefs onto those whom may hold one to which they would be entirely contrary.

It's mostly things like, again, gay marriage that bug me, there is absolutely no reason why they should give enough of a shit to rule about that to begin with, why should it matter? Is it anyone's business aside from the parties involved? Why the hell were they wasting our time with it when there are much more pressing matters at hand? Though to be honest this one is less about religion and more about "I DONT LIKE THAT :[" than anything, It's mostly the religious justification they try to back it up with getting it into this rant, if you have to turn to the bible to justify it instead of having any real reason, you probably should drop the pen before you finish drafting your bill.

Now I can't recall whether or not that passed, I had more pressing personal matters to deal with at the time, but the fact that it even got as far as it did is rather disheartening, even more so if they managed to pass it.

A big problem is that people are stupid, and quick to fall for cheap tricks and gimmicks, but at the same time you can't trust a ruling body to run itself, as it leads to abuse of its powers, so what to do? I'm sure if it were a simple problem to solve we'd have a better system than we do now, though it's at least better than some.

[afterthoughtz]

As far as religion having a place in politics, i'm for whatever gives the most even balance to the goverment, Meaning that i think a blend of people with religious beliefs and thoes without would basically maintain a decent order. And by that i dont mean one trying to push the rest to believe or not to believe like them. But both parties looking to benefit whatever side they represent. Basically making sure one side or other dosent get carried away.

[RufuSwho]

let us hope that the coming generations will be as open-minded as PSU players

tolerance > war

[Cracka_J]

I'm talking about when America was first founded/established or whatever, in the days of Jack, America was already a large running country. Not how it started;-)

lol, witch trials anyone?

I believe that had a bit to do with religion ;)
We all know how well that turned out.

I agree with ronin again. While the methods have changed, the world is filled with the same douchebags, just on a larger scale.

[KodiaX987]

let us hope that the coming generations will be as open-minded as PSU players

tolerance > war

Wait, what?! But I don't wanna get blacklisted by six billion people!

[Gunslinger-08]

True that our country was founded on Christian beliefs, but things have long since changed to a whole new plafora of things. At least to me.

The founding fathers may have themselves been Christians, but the founding morals of the U.S. were deist in nature. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism)

There's a difference, and while many of the morals are the same, there are fundamental differences. Both believe in a God that created everything, but deism, to put it simply holds that God simply set everything up to run on it's own, and has no direct interaction with anything of his/her/its creation.

That being said, the use of religion in the founding of the U.S. was purely to justify, from a moral standing, the grievances the founding fathers claimed against the King of England and Parliament, using "God-given rights" to counterbalance the "God-given power" wielded by the King.

The would-be "Christian" influences in the Constitution regarding laws were things that people of most every religion agreed were right or wrong. They were universally accepted morals.

[EphekZ]

let us hope that the coming generations will be as open-minded as PSU players

tolerance > war

if that happens we're doomed.

[Weeaboolits]

I'd rather not be kicked out of the mall for being under level 100. :[

[Randomness]

I'd rather not be kicked out of the mall for being under level 100. :[

How about kicked out of your house for not having uber-rare stuff?

[drizzle]

As far as I know the whole idea of marriage comes from religion so it's not that strange that they'd want to protects its values and not let people make it into something it was never meant to be ;)

[Weeaboolits]

It was also supposed to be a lifelong union, I suppose divorce should be abolished as well?

[Seority]

The founding fathers may have themselves been Christians, but the founding morals of the U.S. were deist in nature. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism)

There's a difference, and while many of the morals are the same, there are fundamental differences. Both believe in a God that created everything, but deism, to put it simply holds that God simply set everything up to run on it's own, and has no direct interaction with anything of his/her/its creation.

That being said, the use of religion in the founding of the U.S. was purely to justify, from a moral standing, the grievances the founding fathers claimed against the King of England and Parliament, using "God-given rights" to counterbalance the "God-given power" wielded by the King.

The would-be "Christian" influences in the Constitution regarding laws were things that people of most every religion agreed were right or wrong. They were universally accepted morals.

Ah, true true true.
Just kinda silly that people actally think Chrisitanity, if any religion, is still in the goverment to me.